All-Star game set; Bernie pondered
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- January
- 31
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In a not-so-shocking announcement, MLB and the City of New York announced today that the 2008 All-Star Game would be at Yankee Stadium.
Meanwhile, the estimable Jon Heyman reports that the Yankees have offered Bernie Williams a non-contract invite to spring training. There has been talk of this for several weeks and Brian Cashman has talked around it every time.
Williams, I’m sure, is hoping for a one-year deal but the Yankees won’t do that. A non-roster invite certainly puts Bernie in the embarrassing position of possibly being released out of camp.
There’s no right answer to this, only Bernie knows. If he wants to camp and fight for a job that may not exist, that’s his call. But the Yankees might be wise to make the break now. Otherwise camp becomes more about the past than the future.
I’m off to the city to see what Roger Clemens has to say. Be back later with a report.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
I love Bernie just as much as the next guy, but at some point he needs to just realize it’s over.
Bernie is still a class guy, but I’m almost starting to feel that this constant drama surrounding his retirement is harming his reputation. I really just wish he would have gone out a la Paul O’neil
I second that. He can still hit, but can you really say he’s as valuable right now as O’neill was when he retired? Fans gave Bernie the “Paul O’neill” treatment 2 seasons ago just in case he retired, and he and us fans were lucky he was able to come back last year and have a decent year with some very good moments, but this year would be far less productive with far less of those moments even available for him to produce. I hated seeing how quiet Tino’s last year was, he had that awesome month and then was pretty quiet the rest of the year, not as much in the forefront of our minds and I don’t think he got the big send off he deserved. That might have been in part because he had been gone for a few years, but he was a great Yankee and never wanted to leave in the first place. A true class-act that would rather retire than play for another team again, he would have played another year if the Yankees asked him to..
I’d hate to see Bernie go through a year like that and if he retires now, I hope they do the right thing and have a Bernie Williams day so he can get the ovation he deserves.
If he plays somewhere else and rides the pine, I can’t bear to watch it (or if he plays a lot for that matter, in another uniform).
also, I hope he doesn’t do like Al Leiter and retire in spring training with far less people there to give him the ovation……
let’s play name that quote… because all i’m expecting from clemens is that he’s feeling great, but he hasn’t decided if he is going to play yet, let alone where he’s going to play (aka, same ol’ stuff).
I have no problem with Bernabe showing up for Spring Training. It is his decision, and only his, (unless no other team wants him, but I suspect that is not the case) as to how he wants to go out. The writing on the wall has been spray-painted on thirty-feet high in flourescent orange, and if Bernie wants to ignore that, so be it. In the end, it is his career and he should end it in whatever manner he chooses, even if that means he doesn’t get the send off ‘we’ think he deserves.
RE AllStar Game in de bronx: Woo Hoo!
RE Bernie outa de bronx: boo hoo!
RE Rocket back to de bronx: its a no do
turn-two, per Clemens: don’t forget his new favorites of “I am in shape, but not ‘baseball shape’ yet” and that “the only reason I came back last year was b/c my teammates kept calling me.” Always riveting stuff from Rocket.
I love Bernie. And I think he can play – better than Meinkewitz anyway. This is just going to have to play itself out. I honestly think Bernie wants a sendoff like Paulie had…and he deserves one.
So let him fight of a spot and see where it goes. Then if he doesn’t make it, no regrets. If he does, great. Then we’ll have a send off for him at the end of the season. For sure.
Or maybe a coach’s spot?
I love Bernie. And I think he can play – better than Meinkewitz anyway. This is just going to have to play itself out. I honestly think Bernie wants a sendoff like Paulie had…and he deserves one.
So let him fight of a spot and see where it goes. Then if he doesn’t make it, no regrets. If he does, great. Then we’ll have a send off for him at the end of the season. For sure.
Or maybe a coach’s spot?
Love Bernie but it is time to cut ties. He doesnt pinhc hit, doesnt run well and doesnt play all 3 OF positions.
Which is what you need from a 4th/5th OF’er.
I do not see why people keep comparing Bernie to Doug M. Bernie is NOT a first baseman and will never be a first baseman they are not competing for the same position.
What Bernie is at this stage of career is a backup outfielder (and as far as I can see we have one of those in Melky) or a pinch hitter with power a la Rueben Sierra. If anyone looks up bernie’s past results as a pinch hitter it has not been good.
In terms of numbers the only way bernie makes this team is if he comes to Spring Training and the team feels they would rather have 5 outfielders rather than 3/4 first baseman (yes I am counting Giambi). As it is now Phillips or Phelps wont make the team as far as I can see.
Maybe he wants to come to Spring training give it a go then retire once he realizes he may not make the team??Who know really the ball seems to be in his court.
Why compare Bernie to the Eye Chart? They play two different positions. Compare Bernie to the people he has to beat out in spring training and throughout the year, which are Giambi (dh) and Melky (backup of). Bernie sadly doesn’t match up. Even if the Yanks carry a 5th OF (unlikely) Kevin Thompson provides more speed and plays all three positions better than Bernie can at this point.
Comparing Bernie to infielders is a useless exercise.
Bernie won’t coach and he’s never been known to be a player that would translate into a good coach. As Bernie himself has put it, he does have other interests right now which are as strong as baseball.
I agree with Mike. Thompson would be a better defensive replacement and can pinch run, though I’m not sure about his bat or clutch ability with the bat(but as stated, Bernie’s not the greatest pinch-hitter anyway).
Bottom line, Bernie absolutely has earned the right to come to spring training and compete for a job that almost certainly doesn’t exist if he chooses to do so, but the feeling seems to be that the non-roster invite is almost an insult to a Yankee Legend, which is why it seems like Cashman didn’t really want to go that route.
Having never had the ability to play professional sports, I (and I’m sure all or most of us here) cannot imagine what it’s like to still have a passion for a game that he’s had the ability to play at a hight level for so many years, but no longer has the ability to match that passion. Walking away isn’t easy, I’m sure it sucks, and I agree the team should do as much for him as they can to help him do it with dignity (which I believe is what they’re trying to do..). And you can’t blame the guy for his heart and passion for the game clouding his judgement on what he has left to offer on the field for this team, it’s that heart and passion that have let him produce so much in the past.
“An athlete dies two deaths.” —- David Cone
I don’t know why anyone would compare Bernie to Mientkiewicz either, except to say that neither will help the Yankees in 2007.
No positives arise from inviting Bernie to Spring Training. If he performs well, the team will be under renewed pressure to sign him, even though it’s unlikely he will be able to sustain that performance throughout the season. If he’s obviously washed up, his departure lacks dignity. The team should have thanked him for his commitment to the team and cut him loose. Then he could devote himself to enjoying the $103 million he earned while playing for the Yankees.
What If the Redsox won the World Series this year, and Terry Francona will manage the All Star Game next year and pick his players to play in yankees stadium? Francona Didn’t pick Jeter and choose Arod instead? Does it bother you as a Yankees fan that Francona will be seated in Yankees dugout where Joe torre always sitted and manage? Also Ortiz will be sitting his fat ass in Yankees homedugout
Bizast1,
To answer your question, the Red Sox aren’t going to the world series, which would of course hinder there chances of winning one.
I must admit that I got somewhat confused by the past-tense verb with a futuristic hypothetical.
Then I put it together.
Bizast, I agree with Mr. Alejandro. I don’t see the Red Sox going to go to the Big Show; I think you’ll see the Tigers go again before you see the Red Sox go this year. And that’s saying something, as someone who grew up outside of Detroit.
Every year from spring training through July all the doomsday fans come out and talk about how the Red Sox moves have been better, and the Red Sox are going to win, and so on and so forth (Bizast I’m not saying that you’re one of them). So before they start pouring in I thought I’d do the work for them:
Doomsday Fans Say:
Daisuke Matsuzaka will be an ace and a 20 game winner!
The Likely Truth:
Daisuke Matsuzaka may have some success but he’s not the only pitcher in the majors with a variety of pitches and definetely not the only pitcher with a mid 90’s fastball. I think he’ll win games into the mid-teens, but not near 20.
The Doomsday Fan Says:
Papelbons 35 saves will translate to 35 wins!
The Likely Truth:
Papelbon is an effective pitcher but unproven as a starter. His 68.1 innings last year and his arm injury will probably see the Red Sox limiting his innings. Could you imagine him throwing 200 innings next year? His arm will fall off first. I expect another injury or an extremely short leash.
The Doomsday Fan Says:
With Wakefield healthy, his knuckleball will be unhittable!
The Likely Truth:
Wakefield has had an ERA over 4 the last 4 seasons, he will remain very hittable.
Anyone else can add there own doomsday fan arguments and likely truths.
Who cares if Francona manages the All-Star game in 2008? Yankees fans are way to concerned about the rivalry these days, in my opinion. It’s as one-sided as it’s ever been, so stop worrying about silly things like that.
Just remember your basic arithmetic, people.
26 > 6
It’s not that Bernie is competing with Mientkiewicz, it’s that Mientkiewicz is taking the last roster spot that would have been available for Bernie. If Giambi weren’t such a nightmare in the field you wouldn’t need 3 first basemen and this wouldn’t be an issue. Still, I would rather keep Bernie for one more year and send Andy Phillips on his way, with Cairo (and, in a pinch, Jorge) backing up Mientkiewicz.
No, Mientkiewicz is NOT taking up the last roster spot that would have been available for Bernie because it is DIFFERENT POSITIONS.
BTW, I do wonder how many people realize that Mientkiewicz’s OPS and OBP were actually HIGHER than Bernie’s last year?
Another Truth (not likely, but actual):
Schilling and Wakefield are both over 40.
Another truth, Schilling isn’t dominant anymore.
Basically, it comes down to NEED. The Yanks didn’t NEED a 5th of. If they decide to carry one, they have younger and cheaper options.
They also didn’t NEED a DH. They have one.
Supply and Demand. What Bernie supplies, the Yanks didn’t have a demand for.
As for what Mientkiewicz will give offensively, let’s remember a few things.
1) Whoever plays 1b will bat 8th or 9th…regardless of WHO it is.
2) See the 1941 and 1942 seasons for how the Yanks did (WS champs and AL champs), who their first basemen were (Johnny Sturm and Buddy Hassett) in those years, and how good those first basemen were in relation to other first basemen (Rudy York, Jimmy Foxx, Mickey Vernon to name a few) in the league. In other words, stop panicking over the Eye Chart.
Well, if Bernie accepts, he is presumed to have assumed the risk of being released. I wish he would just retire, but the choice is his to make.
Mike,
It doesn’t matter where Mientkiewicz bats in the lineup, 1B is an offensive position. Consequently, the idea is to put a player there who can provide production. Mientkiewicz can’t do that sufficiently.
that may be true, Rich…
… but I think, with the Yankees team the way it’s comprised, you have production at every other position on the field. And your listed DH used to be a 1st baseman.
(well, that doesn’t matter too much.)
I think they’re more worried about A-Rod’s potential defensive confidence lapse at some point… Jeter’s acorbatic and yet somewhat erratic turn-around throws… and Cano’s still evolving defense at second. And they’re thinking: “Let’s get someone who we know can play defense better, if not just as good, as they can offense. Because we have a bunch of offense right now.”
maybe.
“also, I hope he doesn’t do like Al Leiter and retire in spring training with far less people there to give him the ovation……”
I gave him an ovation and chanted his name IN OCTOBER OF 2005.
Mike S – awesome Cone quote…
Rich, I agree with Sammy and Mike. I hear what you’re saying about 1B, but most teams don’t get the production we get from Cano at second, only a handful get the kind of production we get out of Jeter at short, etc… The lineup is stacked and there’s always one or two spots in the lineup that aren’t expected to be major producers. The Yankees just get production out of different spots than teams typically do… We definitely need a solid defensive 1B, we have the entire time since Giambi got here, always have had to have someone fill-in defensively, he’s a liability out there. And if you look at the Yankees over the last several years before Giambi, we used to have one guy who gave us both (Tino, Donnie baseball..). That just isn’t available right now.
On the other hand, if we sign Teixeira next year…..
Here is what I think is going on. Please tell me what you think about this:
Yankees plan to give Bernie a shot at first. They don’t want to say this because it would be unfair to Phillips and Phelps, who have had their hopes up all offseason. If Bernie is somewhat decent (he doesn’t need speed as much as he needs reaction time and proper footing at first) he will provide as a huge asset for the club. He has a ton of heart. This would of course mean Phillips and Phelps wouldn’t be on the roster but honestly the Yankees are so much stronger with Bernies bat in the bottom of the lineup. The Yanks could keep Minky in for the late-inning switch, sort of like what they did with Giambi and Phillips last season. I think that with Giambi as DH, Bernie proving himself at first, and Minky as the switch guy, that this would be a very VERY smart move. Bernie is a switch hitter, the Yankees are primarily lefty so he would provide more pop from the right.
This would be my best case scenario.
sammy,
I don’t think Cano needs any help. In fact, I still believe that Jeter is the weak link with regard to the infield defense, especially in light of the range required to play the position well (which he lacks, particularly up the middle). Gold Gloves, it has to be acknowledged, are largely voted on the basis of political considerations (Raphael Palmeiro once won one).
As for A-Rod, I think that if Mientkiewicz provides any benefit to him, it will be psychological, in the sense that they have a long standing relationship going back to high school. So he may offer something of a support system.
Also, as Chris says… we could make a run for Tex next year so Bernie could fill that gap in time. Does anyone disagree that Bernie should at least be given a shot at first… if he proves to be good, its back to a lineup without any holes. Bernie is clutch!
Released Cairo, Put Bernie on the Rosters.
Even with Minky… they could let him hit against righties and put Bernie in against lefties… switch Minky in at the end.
Chris,
My position is that injuries and slumps occur; players, no matter how offensively talented, may have an off day, or hit a ball hard, but right at a fielder. As a result, I think that it makes sense to have as many talented offensively players as possible on the field, especially since far smarter minds than mine have found that a 1Bman does not have the capacity to save many runs from a defensive standpoint.
Russell–
No offense but No way is your 1st base scenario a valid one. If that were the case that really would be all Spring Training talk is about. bernie is not a 1st baseman and as we learned last year it is not as easy and going to the position and being able to play if effectively.
If for some reason bernie comes to camp has a good/great camp and Phillips and Phelps falter the more likely scenario is that one or both of them is dropped off the roster but I think that is HIGHLY unlikely with our numbers and needs at other positions.
I’d have to argue with that last part Rich, Mattingly and Tino saved plenty, and supposedly so has Meinky (according to Johnny Damon from when they played together). Certainly they should be able to produce more than they can save, but I don’t think it’s as clear-cut as it may sound. I know Giambi always felt his offense made up for any runs that he lost with his glove, which is most likely true. But, a run her or there lost with a glove can also turn into a huge inning (and did happen many times against us last year, even if some were from A-Rod’s glove, but you see my point about defense..).
Why does everyone criticize Jeter’s defense with all the sick plays he makes? I’ve heard the lack of range argument before, just don’t see it. That might be my ignorance or blind faith, but the guy makes outstanding plays that only a few others are capable of and he at least seems to go beyond being where he needs to be, he’s all over that infield and shows leadership out there. What am I missing?
Kevin–
Release Cairo? Put Bernie on? Ummm….Bernie can’t play all four infield positions like Cairo can. Get real.
Rich,
If you have a 2b, ss and 3b who each provide far above what a normal 2b, ss and 3b provide (and the Yankees do), then 1b doesn’t have to be an offensive position.
Do yourself a favor. Go to http://www.baseballreference.com and check out Johnny Sturm’s 1941 season. The Yanks won the WS that year DESPITE Sturm. Why? For one reason, because of the fact that the 2b (Joe Gordon) was far better than your average 2b. The only one close to Gordon was Bobby Doerr. Gordon made up for Sturm.
Look at Keith Hernandez’ numbers. He wasn’t a 20 hr, 100 rbi type of guy. Mark Grace was .298-15-78 in 2001 for Arizona. Not that great. Scott Spiezio 2002 Angels? .285-12-82. Even Tino in 2000===yes, he had 91 RBI, but .258 and 16 HR wasn’t that great.
In the end, it all comes down to PITCHING.
I understand wanting a solid defensive first baseman to catch ‘off’ throws by the rest of the middle infield but I do believe that Bernie is allow to be a little worse defensively because of the upgrade that he would be over the other spot aside from Minky. The question is, just how much? I know you can sit and say that Sheffield was an embarassment but he was a grumpy selfish player, we are talking about a guy with a lot of heart and willingness to learn. I also think (and you may disagree) that it would benefit the team having him at 1b, despite how much offense you are getting from the rest of the infield. More often than not, Bernie will produce over Phillips/Phelps, and the Yankees DO NOT have an offensive upgrade (correct me if I’m wrong) incase they needed his bat late in the game. I just forsee the situation as: Yankees are down by 1, Posada, Phillips, and Damon at bat. I want Bernie in there.
On the whole Cairo thing, like Mike said, that is out of the question. Bernie is not an infield utility player nor should he be. Asking him to learn 1 new position might prove to be tough, asking him to learn 4 is insane.
Mike,
Why would any team with resources choose to place a self-imposed limit on offensive production? It makes no sense. No amount of history can excuse that choice.
A potent offense makes it easier to pitch by increasing the margin for error. Why shrink it voluntarily?
Chris,
Studies demonstrate otherwise. That’s why stats are important. Observation, although valuable, is subjective. Statistical evidence is objective.
As for Jeter, he just doesn’t get to balls up the middle that top defensive shortstops get to.
Many of his so called “sick plays” really only look that way because he doesn’t have the ability to easily handle what really should be routine plays.
Why can’t I link?
http://www.yesnetwork.com/news.....amp;vkey=5
Steve Goldman on 1B defense:
Hitting can make up for a multitude of sins, especially at first base. There’s a reason that first base has been the home of the immobile slugger going back to the days of Big Dan Brouthers. With most hitters being right-handed, grounders are often directed to the right side of the infield. On most plays the first baseman’s job is to stay around the bag and receive the ball, so their opportunity to do real damage isn’t the same as the shortstop’s. Assuming that a first baseman fits the offensive profile of his position, if he lacks Keith Hernandez’s ability to come in on a bunt or Don Mattingly’s range in the hole he should still contribute enough with the bat to make his lack of defensive ability a minor concern.
Jason Giambi stretches this argument because he’s not even a good receiver. While he scoops the occasional low throw, his vertical leap is purely hypothetical, and most everything thrown over his head seems to get by. Plays off the bag don’t happen. We’re talking about a first baseman who is not just bad, but might possibly be the worst defensive first baseman in the game. His defense was so bad that it contributed to runs that cost the Yankees a total of one win over the cost of the season (remember, it’s not easy to lay causality for a win or a loss at any one player’s door; the best we can do is look at run elements and see how things add up over the course of a season to get a better understanding of a player’s abilities). That doesn’t sound like a lot, but keep in mind that Giambi played only 68 games at first.
Baseball Prospectus’s WARP (Wins Above Replacement), which considers both offense and defense, says Giambi was worth about six wins above replacement to the Yankees last year. That includes the loss created by his defense. Had he played at first on a daily basis, his defense might have started to eat into his overall productivity. Giambi still would have been a net positive, but his overall value would have been severely reduced.
Who cares about Cairo? I hope Yankees Play Andy in all infield positions and teach him how to play ss in spring training
I personally like Cairo but really have no preference when it comes to Andy or Cairo in the utility slot. To take another line from that article, Rich, which also supports my argument for Bernie: “The 1979 Pirates won with Willie Stargell at first base and he could barely bend over.” There are lots of first baseman who can’t bend over. The Red Sox first baseman bends over all the time.
Melky is the perfect 4th outfielder. He can play all 3 positions, has a gun for an arm, gives the team youthful and athletic spark, hits well from both sides of the plate, and can fill in long term for an injury.
If the Yankees decide to go with a 5th outfielder, it must be someone who can come off the bench and pinch run, be a late inning defensive replacement, and occasionally pinch hit. That is not Bernie. It’s Kevin Reece or Kevin Thompson.
Not sure if that was directed at my argument for Bernie, Thurman… my suggestion was that Bernie would replace Phillips/Phelps in the platoon. He would not be an outfielder, he would be a 1b-man. The Yankees won’t go with a 5th outfielder, their roster is too tight. 1b would be the only option for Bernie (and I think it would be a good fit) if he were to come back with the current roster.
Russell you said “Bernie is clutch”
Clutch hitting does not exist. I love Bernie but he doesn’t contribute anything anymore. No arm, some speed, no power, no obp, limited fielding ability. I’m also one of those people who didn’t mind signing Miendkskdksskzzaz because he is an excellent defender who is far superior to Giambi. Giambi did cost the Yankees games with his awful range. They don’t need anymore offense, so Dougie M’s lack of production will not mean much. (For all those Phillips lovers out there, Andy Phillips reminded me of Adam Dunn without the prodigious power. He really doesn’t seem to be that good)
Thurman, Melky is a perfect 4th OF. Completly agree. He can play defense, hit just enough, and contribute above average speed. Bernie just doesn’t do that anymore.
Ross – im not arguing that Bernie is the fit that the Yankees need for a long time. I am arguing that for the short time between now and when they receive a capable 1b-man, he is an upgrade over the Minky/Phillips platoon. He has no arm… at 1b you don’t need an arm. He has no power… you dont expect Phillips or Minky to be hitting them at a significantly higher rate than Bernie. Plus, he would be at the way bottom of the lineup, which is not the power spot in the lineup. As for obp… in 2006 (though there was a difference in the number of at-bats, Bernie was at .332 over Phillips’ .281). Bernie is the guy you want batting in that spot, no question. Minky would still be in there as the defensive guy, and u could even start Minky against righties, but Bernie is a switch hitter and the Yankees could use some more hitters on the right (look at their lineup). He is not the ideal 1b-man but he would be an upgrade if he proves he us capable of being out on the field.
By clutch hitting I mearly meant that I could see Bernie keeping the at-bat alive in a 2 strike count more than Phillips. He also has a better chance getting on base. I know you said Doug’s lack of production wont mean much but you can’t argue that it wouldn’t help putting Bernie in there against Bostons lineup if trade negotiations started up for Helton again in spring training.
Bernie should have started working out at 1B years ago, but when Torre was asked about by M and the MD at that time, he said he doesn’t believe that players can from out to in (OF to IF). I think he was wrong, and it has harmed Bernie.
test
There is no doubt that it would have helped to have Bernie start about a year ago but I honestly believe they didn’t think Giambi was going to be full-time DH. It’s when his wrist started acting up that they said “oh god.” When Minky came into the picture, I think it made more sense for them to have Bernie in there (all people are different, how long could it take to say that Bernie is better defensively than Giambi is?) and thats why Bernie was invited to spring training.
Red Sox offense better than the Yanks?
http://www.yesnetwork.com/news.....amp;vkey=6
Bernie is better than Andy Phillips, no doubt there. But that really isn’t saying anything. It comes down to this: Berine can’t really outhit Doug M by much but Doug has pretty big defensive advantage, considering Bernie has never played first base. Since production from that position does not mean anything in the Yankees lineup, they might as well have signed a superior defender. I liked Cash’s decision there.
thank you for that article rainbow trout. I wanted to add another point about Bernie… What happens when your bottom 2 guys are the Yankees backup catch and Andy Phillips… I think that is enough of a hole in the lineup (call me spoiled). The Yankees want to limit the workload on Posada and Bernie could certainly be used in that lineup in that situation.
I think the real reason Bernie was invited to Spring Training was out of loyalty and respect. Bernie has always been a likeable and outstanding player (in his prime). But I honestly don’t think Cashman will take a roster spot away from Melky, Doug, or a pitcher to make room for Bernie UNLESS Bernie just tears up the Grapefruit League and DM looks inept. Cashman is stressing defense at first base, not offense, because he knows that the Yankees can compensate for a weak-hitting 1B.
Why can some people link here and some can’t?
Any help would be appreciated.
Bernie at 1b is just not happening. Ever. This whole argument over voluntarily limiting offense potential seems a bit ridiculous as well. As presently constituted, the Yankees are getting above-average production at 2b, ss, catcher and 3b to a degree. They are projected to score the most runs in the league by a fair margin. There is nothing wrong with playing a good field – no hit first baseman, especially with Worm-Killer Wang on the staff and getting a ton of groundball outs.
Plus, the trade deadline market for 1b’s is usually fruitful and Ca$h has the chips to deal. Attempting to turn Bernie into a 1b, let alone a UTILITY infielder, is (in Iron Mike’s words) luda-crisp.
Ross – I understand your argument and agree that Bernie probably won’t outhit him by much. But that is not the issue here. The issue is whether Phillips/Phelps or Bernie belong in the spot alongside Minky. Here is the key question: If Doug has the defensive advantage and is as good a hitter as Bernie, then why not make him the permanent first baseman and forget the platoon? The reason why the Yankees have the platoon is because they want the bat from the right side. That is why Phillips and Phelps exist right now. Being that Bernie can hit from the right and Minky cannot, they would want to play Phillips/Phelps anyway against lefties. Bernie is better offensively than Phillips/Phelps an upgrade. As for the 1b-man offensive abilities not mattering… read Goldmans article about why he would have taken Sexson and when Posada is out, there will be a need for a bat.
A few observations:
1. Peter, best of luck on the results of your Lasik procedure. The fact that you’ve continued to do this shows great dedication. The Journal News should appreciate you.
2. Much as I admire Bernie and what he has done for us, I can’t see him making the team unless we lose a first baseman. The way Joe Torre has used the bullpen lately seems to dictate a 12-man pitching staff. Since Cashman (with Torre’s approval?) signed Doug M. for a reason, that would seem to put Bernie in a competition with Andy Philips, and Andy can play more positions. I think that the Yanks are trying the best way possible to say goodbye to Bernie. Unfortunately, for Bernie and those of us who care about the team and him, he seems to be fighting the obvious conclusion that the team no longer has a spot for him. An athlete does die two deaths.
2. I know this is a bit out-of-place, but I’m intrigued by the pitching possibilities. Pitching will determine things, afterall. I think that if (a)Pavano has a couple of good outings, and (b)someone else – be it Sanchez, Ohlendorf, Karsten, or Rasner (not Hughes, he’s going to Scranton) – has a good spring, that Pavano will wind up going to Atlanta or St. Louis or some other NL team that needs starting pitching. When Cashman said a while back that he had not gotten around to talking to Pavano about the car crash last August – What’s it been, 6 months? – that seems to me to be a sign that he’s written him off.
Any thoughts?
Fine, give the roster spot to Bernie over Phelps/Phillips, but then Bernie better learn first base (if there is a platoon) But they still need a backup catcher and I know Phelps has caught in the past. Bernie is a better hitter than those two, I agree. But why would the Yankees want Richie Sexson? Another overpaid declining power hitter? Really? The dude is very streaky. Offense is the least of the Yankees’ problems and Sexson would only have limited their roster flexibility.
rbizzler, getting above-average production from your other infielders doesnt mean that you should stop there. If you have the ability to sign a better offensive player that will help you more offensively than hurt you more defensively then I don’t see why you wouldnt explore the possibility?
You are right to say that the Yankees will score enough runs as is but does it hurt to add more runs? Bernie wouldn’t be a permanent 1b-man, in a good situation he could play against lefties, having Minky in at the end of the games and Minky could play against righties the whole game. This is what Phillips or Phelps would be doing anyway.
But Russell, did you say the Yankees should have signed Sexson?
Ross – if Bernie cant play first base enough to where it would hurt the team, then I wouldn’t be arguing to put Bernie in there. It is just a weighing of bat vs defensive abilities and why not take the chance to see if his defensive abilities is good enough to be a positive for the team.
As for Phelps being a backup catcher, that is a whole other issue. If Phelps is productive enough offensively then that would be another viable option. Though I heard Phelps isnt as good with his glove at first as Minky or Phillips.
I was not FOR getting Sexson. I merely mentioned him b/c he had an argument mentioned in an earlier post about a 1b-man not needing to be sparkling defensively if he could provide some pop offensively. I don’t/wouldnt want Sexson.
Sorry if I didnt make that earlier post clear… I wouldn’t have signed Sexson.
“Why would any team with resources choose to place a self-imposed limit on offensive production? It makes no sense. No amount of history can excuse that choice.”
The problem is, all the resources in the world can’t acquire a player who doesn’t exist. If Texiera, Pujols, was on the market I’m pretty sure the Yankees would’ve made a play. Who, on the market, was better than Mintkiewicz? Shea Hillenbrand, maybe, but I can see why Cash wouldn’t want his attitude on the team.
The guy I wanted was Ray Durham. True, hes never played first before, but he is athletic enough to learn. And he could back up the infield as well.
Russell, you are trying to stuff a round peg into a square hole (or vice-versa) for no good reason. Like I said before, Bernie should decide for himself the manner in which he leaves the game. Here’s a hypothetical for you: say your much bally-hooed “Bernie at first” experiment works well enough in the Spring for Bernie to make the team and then a good (read better than Bernie) 1b option becomes available on the trade market. What happens then? Show Bernabe, a great Yankee and person, the door in the middle of the season? That would be a terrible shame. Showing Phelps/Andy the door midyear would be a no-brainer and a low-cost move. All sentiment aside, Bernie is just not a good fit for the way this team is presently constituted and he is having difficulty seeing that.
As for your offense argument, the real measure of the success of a team is run differential. The object is not just to score as many as you can, but also to limit your opponents to as few runs as possible. Having as many capable defenders on the field as possible is desirable in this regard. Especially if the defensive upgrade doesn’t hurt you with that bat.
joey – ray durham is nice but he would have been quite a bit more expensive than minky. Being that the offseason theme was to save money, I think they wanted to conserve for a better 1b-man that would be hitting the upcoming market in the near future.
rbizzler – you have a good argument there but in all honesty I dont think the Yankees want to make a run for the Teixiera if Texas is willing to trade him. As was said in another Yankees chat by someone, the Tigers were trying to give Bonderman for Tex but the deal was squashed. And he believed it was Texas who squashed the deal b/c the players demanded werent good enough. If Bonderman isnt good enough, Tex will demand some rather highly-touted prospect from the Yankees which might be a bad move for someone hitting the free agent market next season.
As for the whole offensive/defensive thing. Phillips could hurt the team for his bat in certain scenarios: Jorge out of the lineup, end of close game and Yanks have bottom of the lineup coming up. Phillips certainly is an defensive upgrade over Bernie but like I said, the Giambi switch worked last year with Phillips so why couldnt Bernie do the same with Minky? Minky would be playing moore than Phillips did last year (in the present situation) anyway.
As for sticking a round peg in a square hole… I clearly stated that if his lack defensively was significant enough then the Yankees shouldn’t go through with it (that is why they arent guaranteeing him a spot). If it works out defensively, it wouldn’t be a bad idea. He never tried 1b, no one knows how it will work out.
It isnt like Bernie hasn’t been around enough to know what it takes to be a 1bman. I’m sure he has heard and seen his share of 1bman. It isnt like taking someone in the offensive line and putting him as quarterback. 1b is an immobile position that requires a quick reaction time. His reaction time didn’t hurt him in the previous year, his running speed did. He doesnt have as much ground to cover, he just needs to learn the footing, and the proper procedures for covering first. Certainly it is not impossible. He is a musician and musicians like to dance so Dance Bernie Dance!
Hey Pete –
I got the impression that the Yankee brass is thinking Olhendorf is going to be the 5th coming out of spring training. How much truth is there to that impression?
I’ll let Pete answer that Sunny but wouldnt you think that Sanchez has a better shot at that #5 spot?
I heard an article a few days ago (cant find it again) saying that Ohlendorf was receiving high regards from a former Yankees catcher (who I believe was his college coach). He said the kid has a lot of heart, really wants to succeed, and would be a good fit for the team.
Today I was talking to my friend from Holland, who is a big sports nut, but doesnt know too much about baseball(we have never talked about it either). So I asked her if she knew what it was, and she says, “Like the Yankees?” XD
I guess the Yankees are synonymous with baseball.
Russell, I’m sorry, but I just can’t see how that’s a realistic situation. If we wanted a converted outfielder to play 1B, we could have kept Sheffield. If we wanted a mediocre defensive and a declining offensive player, we could have signed Rich Aurillia or Kevin Millar.
I love the glasses Pete. Hope you’re feeling better, but seriously, start wearing the glasses all the time.
J – Sheffields personality was a cancer to the team and as a player who was going to continue to play a few more years longer than Bernie and hit better, he had trade value. Also, he demanded A LOT more money than Bernie demands. This is not to mention how much Bernie meant to this team and how much less Sheffield did. We got some good prospects in return for him and dumped his huge salary. Bernie wasn’t and isnt demanding much salary (he got payed around 1-2 million last year if im correct) and wouldn’t demand much next year either.
If Rich Aurillia or Kevin Millar arent that far from Bernie then why wouldnt the Yankees just stick with Bernie considering fans dont want to see him on another team? They wouldn’t grab Rich or Kevin.
It doesn’t matter how much he demands. It’s time to say goodbye to Bernie.
Sometimes I wonder why I am a Yankee fan after reading some peoples comments. Bernie is NOT EVER EVER EVER going to play first base. 1) He doesn’t want to 2) The Yankees don’t want him to. The Yankees are going to get average production out of Mien/Philips or Phelps and that is what they want. Bernie can no longer play the field like Matsui/Damon/Abreu/Melky so there is no use for him in the outfield and he won’t get any at bats at DH b/c Giambi will get the bulk with leftover going to any starter getting a day off from the field. Bernie should be the stand up guy he has always been and accept that the time has come for him to walk away. You can only have 25 players on the active roster and there is not a spot for him right now. Its sad to see him go but it happens to everyone. They aren’t going to keep Jeter on the team when he no longer can serve a role just to say he is sitting on the bench. I think Jeter would know his time has come and hang em up and I don’t see why Bernie has yet to do that.
I can’t even believe we’re seriously talking about a 38 year old Bernie Williams playing 1B in 2007. Anyway..
If we hadn’t landed Abreu, you can bet that Cashman would have evaluated picking up Sheffields options on its merits. Yeah, not the greatest club house presence, but Sheffield’s career OPS+ of 145 is reason enough to not just dump him. The point I was making is that there is no room on this team for anyone but a true major league first baseman.
Maybe I wasn’t clear about Millar and Aurillia – I’d rather have either of them than Bernie at 1B. You can add Craig Wilson and even Ryan Klesko to that list.
Think about it this way. How many times did you hold your breath when a throw looked liked it was headed for the dirt? How about when Giambi fielded that pick off throw in the playoffs and tried to throw the ball to someone in the left field bleachers (keep in mind as well the return of Andy Pettite, who’s pick off move to first we all know)? The solution Cashman has devised is Mientkiewicz. And without an injury history, I doubt they would have added Phelps in the Rule 5 draft and they would have put Phillips on the trade bait list with the understanding the the backup infielder would play 1B if need be.
Bottom line: Bernie at 1B makes really no sense no matter which way you look at it, but I suppose you can argue that if we had a legit 1B option, there might be some more roster spots and Bernie might fall in the mix somewhere. Still, I’d rather have more another relief pitcher.
Sometimes I wonder why you are being so rude Nick. It is merely a constructive argument and your points dont make any more sense either. 1) He never ruled it out and even said “we havent gotten to that point yet” when they were talking about 1b 2) What do you think the Yankees invited him to spring training for? A 5th outfielder spot? 3) Yankees do not want AVERAGE PRODUCTION. 4) He would not be an outfielder and doesnt need to cover as much ground which is why 1b is not so outrageous. Him taking Phillips/Phelps’ spot WOULD make room for him, which is why it is not crazy. I am not for him replacing Melky because Melky is a good player to have on the team. Phillips and Phelps are not as productive as Bernie offensively which is why I would prefer him in that spot.
OK, i cant believe this discussion went on so long… we dont have a legit first base option, there is GOING TO BE 2 people at first, and the Yankees, for now, need to decide who those 2 people are going to be. In a pool of Minky, Bernie, Phillips, and Phelps, I fail to see why it is CRAZY to haver Bernie in that mix, but I cant argue it anymore. Think what you want. Goodnight
I think the labor of love towards a “home-grown Yankee,” one that was here before the last four championships… the other trips to the WS… hell, the current management… is as reinforced as any fan’s devotion towards one’s team.
think about this way: if Bernie didn’t have one iota of wanting to come back… would we be having this discussion, or giving him a proper send-off? Nope. We’d be waxing poetic about his contributions… games that he had made major contributions, game-winning hits/HR’s… etc. We’d be lamenting the end of an era.
I think, all in all, we should be grateful that the guy won’t play for any other team. Because he couldn’t see himself as a full-fledged member of that team. He’s been faithful to this team. And we should return that faith – not in rerouting any other talent to fit him in – but in sincere and complete respect for the way he has made us all better fans for our team.
I know Bernie won’t read this, nor would anyone who would pass this message along. But if I could talk to him, I’d say:
thank you for making me a greater fan of the greatest team ever to play professional sports. You gave us your all, and I hope that you felt that in return over your years that you stepped out onto the hallowed area of center field at Yankee Stadium. Simply, the greatest that luck and life can bring you in this time after baseball, Mr. Williams. You will always be respected by this fan, and you will be missed greatly. I will make sure to remember you to my daughter as one of the great Yankees that I had the pleasure to watch.
yeah… maybe not too articulate there.
but it’d be hard to remain pretty level-headed if I was having a conversation with Bernie Williams.
I apologize for my incohesive blabbering.
As of right now, Giambi plays a better first base than Bernie Williams.
Enough said.
A few answers to a few questions:
Sunny: Ohlendorf seems to be in the mix but the Yankees want Pavano and Igawa at the back end of the rotation.
In general: There is not a chance in hell Bernie plays first. I personally like Bernie and he has been a heck of a player. But you don’t take a guy with marginal baseball instincts and make him a first baseman, particularly at this stage of his career. Just. Not. Happening. You ever watch the routes he takes to fly balls? You want him at first base trying to dig out throws and figure out relays?
I know this isn’t the most popular POV, but I think it’s best to just end it with Bernie. No nonsense about half-hearted spring training contracts. No undefined role with vague promises of the occasional AB. Most of all, no embarrassing switch to 1B. This is the situation: the Yankees don’t have a spot on the roster available that suits Bernie’s skills, nor one that is appropriate for someone with his distinguished career. That’s the reality. So just let him go. Then it’s up to him. He can sign with another team. He can retire. He can sit out a year and see what’s available next year. The ideas being tossed around in regards to keeping him with the Yankees are making him little more than a mascot and that’s beneath him. Who wants to see this scenario? Bernie sits on the bench for 12 games, then all of a sudden is called upon to hit in a tight situation. He comes to the plate, everyone applauds and chants his name. And he hits a pop fly to end the inning. The crowd noise recedes in disappointment. Then he’s sent out to play 1B and muffs an easy grounder. No one wants to boo him, everyone feels uncomfortable. Is this the way you all really want Bernie to end his career? I don’t. Just put a defnitive end to the relationship and everyone will be a lot happier. Thanks.
You’re right skippy and peter. For Bernie’s sake (and legacy) it would be best to end it right now and try not to demean him with any 1b, minor league, or other deals. I guess a part of me wanted to see him return because I feel like every year the Yankees have a very good chance at winning the World Series and I would want him to be a part of it. It’s good seeing Pettitte back and I hold a certain sentimentality toward the dynasty they once were.
Pete – in that case, I’m just wondering what motivation the Yankees would have in offering him a minor league contract then? They don’t want him for first, the 5th outfielder, or even for DH (we have a DH). Did they just owe him an offer?
YES!!! They are giving it to him because they feel like they owe him something. I am not an inside in the Yankee clubhouse but there are NO spots on the 25 man roster unless Mienky plays first everyday or Giambi splits time or we carry one less pitcher. Why ruin the bullpen so we can have a 5th outfielder??? Have you seen one reporter/insider talk about Bernie playing first? Some people think you can just throw any old guy you want at first and he’ll succeed. Sheffield was a decent infielder in his day and he still struggled. Bernie has no shot and has never played a day of infield in his professional career. 1st base isn’t as easy as people think ecspecially with our staff and the amount of ground ball outs Wang gets. If Bernie plays first I will be the first person on here to apologize for my comments but it ain’t happenin ever!
This argument is as dumb as the back up catcher role. Whoever makes it out of camp isn’t gonna impact a game much. Any back up catcher we get is going to bat .220-.240 drive in 20 and hit 5 homers in about 30-40 games. Maybe slight deviations in defense but people waste more time talking about it and I waste more time scrolling threw the discussion than the back up catcher is going to play.
This is kinda what I was hanging onto (article from Pete Caldera of NorthJersey.com):
Asked if he’d be willing to try out as a first baseman, Williams would only say, “We haven’t reached that point yet.”
Anyways, I just don’t see the point of giving Bernie Williams a shot at making the team if there is no conceivable room for him in the first place. I might be hanging onto this too long but if Torre wants to give him a shot, he must have something in mind… right? Or are they going to give him a shot so he can turn it down and maybe that is the graceful storybook exit that the Yankees are planning?
Rich. I am not saying that the Yanks are placing a self-imposed limit on offensive production. But there is more to the game than just offense. I have argued for a few years that the team was getting too one-dimensional. They have sacrificed a balanced offense for too many players who fit only one mode of play. The free agent pickups they had for a few years seemed to be a bunch of clones–all offensively oriented with little attention played to how they played defense. I have to ask you, do you want only a lineup with power hitters? Do you want nobody who can a) run the bases well b) plays good defense c) is more of a contact hitter who may not have the power of others but provides better balance? For years the Yanks have had a lineup that was NOT balanced. They had no one who could hit and run or take the ball the other way, and no one who could bunt runners along. What they could use is a more BALANCED lineup.
The Yanks won five straight WS titles with Joe Collins at 1b for goodness sakes. Check Joe Collins’ numbers out sometime.
You say that a potent offense makes it easier to pitch my decreasing the margin for error. I’d like to ask this. What about a great defense? Doesn’t THAT decrease the margin for error also? How do you explain Ozzie Smith? How would you explain Mark Belanger on the excellent Orioles teams of 1969-1971? How do you explain the numbers I gave you on Hernandez, Mark Grace, Tino’s 2000 or Scott Spiezio? I think your post of 6:23 contradicts your 6:20 post.
I do need to ask if you even looked at the numbers of Sturm, Buddy Hassett or Joe Collins. The Yanks made do in spite of them, and the Yanks could make do in spite of Mientkiewicz.
Moving to first isn’t that easy–ask Piazza. You have to know when to and when not to cut a ball off. Making the 3-6-3 isn’t easy if you are right handed. The adjustment isn’t as easy as some would make it appear.
Russell—the college coach and former Yankees (and Mariners) catcher who you are thinking of is Scott Bradley. This is regarding Ohlendorff. Ohlendorff’s high school coach, by the way, was Keith Moreland.
This has been a great thread, regardless of whether you agree or disagree with various viewpoints. Kudos to all.
Mike – I agree with the Yankees needing a more BALANCED lineup 100% My friend preaches this to me all the time and you are both right. I do think that the Yankees have a good balance of offense and defense… except the 1b and backup catcher, everyone is + offensively and defensively: melky is a great outfielder, damon will run through a wall for us, abreu’s got a great arm, a-rod (when right) has a gun at third and can stand there with the best of em, Jeter needs no explanation, Cano is a huge surprise for someone so young (he seems to have learned a bit from A-Rod and Jeter in terms of how quickly he releases the ball) and Posada had an incredible season last year. So, defensively, I would not say they are in horrible shape. The one glaring asset that appears to be missing is that young speedy guy who, when on the lineup, is a headache for the pitcher because he could steal any time he wants to (Jose Reyes comes to mind). The Yanks have SOME speed, but they don’t have anyone near Reyes; that’s what makes the Mets so dangerous. I thought the Yankees were getting that with Damon but (this is not a knock on Damon) he developed the problem with his toe and after that never appeared to me to be the major threat on the basepads that they were hoping for. He makes up for this though with an increase in homeruns, a positive attitude, and a passion for the game.
I would like to see a more fundamental baseball team this year and I believe the Yankees have the right set of characters to do it. Jeter sure knows fundamental baseball and should share some of his wisdom (if he hasnt already)
About Ohlendorf… a few people said the Yankees didnt pull away well in the Johnson trade. I think that dumping his salary and adding 4 guys (including a decent major league reliever) is amazing. Good job cash! I hope scott bradley was right about ohlendorf
Bernie would not make a good 5th OF. He doesnt have a place on the roster. You cant live in the past as a team.
Rich, I get what you’re saying about Jeter and that may hold true much of the time, but “the flip,” the catch that took him into the stands in a crucial game against boston, the over the shoulder catches on pop-flies, etc… are hardly routine plays. They may be the exception compared to other plays he’s diving for that others may not have to dive for, but he’s hardly a bad SS defensively. I’ll concede he may not be elite defensively, but no way is he bad at the position.
rbizzler – I get that A-rod had an off year by his standards and our standards for him, but his numbers certainly were in the category of productive and just about every other team in the league would take those #’s from 3B.
One thing everyone seems to be missing, possibly because it won’t happen, is that the Yankees (Cashman, Torre at least) feel that Andy Phillips is a better hitter than we’ve seen. He showed flashes of it last year, then went cold and had injury issues. Part of this is that they want to see if they’re right about his offense, and his defense is pretty good, certainly far and above Giambi, but not elite.
Russell, I agree about the fundamental baseball and I think the Yankees were MUCH better at this last year, due to 2 main things – 1.) Torre wanted it that way and stressed it from spring training on, 2.) they had to when they lost Matsui and Sheff. Also, we may not have any barn burners, but Jeter did steal over 30 bases last year, Damon stole a few despite the injured toe (and you’d expect will be more active this year if he can stay healthy..), even Melky proved to be a good baserunner with his marginal speed (not from a stealing bases perspective but baserunning…). We may not have the conventional speedster, but guys like Jeter and Damon know how to get things done, get the right jump, when to go, etc… to cause the same issues you mentioned and create runs.
Very long thread, great comments everyone…
Plus, with Sheffield gone and Melky in there (possibly every day giving the OFers breaks) we could have more speed on the bases. The Abreu acquisition doesnt hurt since he is a speedster also. I can’t wait, with damon, jeter, and abreu leading off, that is plenty of speed on the bases for giambi and arod to hit around.
Yup, and despite a few baserunning blunders last year, A-Rod’s a base stealing threat also..
I know its probably a sin to bring this up but Newsday suggested as a long shot to bring Bernie back (and a reason why he could have a shot in spring training) is if Miguel Cairo wins the righty spot at first base, leaving the spot open for Bernie. This would mean that if A-Rod, Jeter, or Cano needed a day off or went out with injury, Minky would be the every day first baseman and Cairo would play utility. This doesn’t sound as crazy as Bernie playing first but still probably unlikely to happen.
I really liked the idea of getting Mark Loretta as a 1b/utility infielder, but that never happened for one reason or another. I don’t know if he has experience at positions other than 2B, but he’s a good fielder and a tough at bat…
Cairo plays a decent 1B, but his production would probably be lower than Mink..