Bullpen has plenty of time to develop
-
-
- February
- 28
-
The post earlier today about Joe Torre putting Ron Villone on the team seems to have touched a nerve.
First off, calm down. It’s Feb. 28. Many things can and will change between now and April 2.
And let’s hold off before we vote Chris Britton and Brian Bruney into Cooperstown. Britton was a fairly good rookie reliever for a terrible Baltimore team last season. The Yankees picked Bruney off the scrap heap and he pitched well in largely non-pressure situations. Bruney already has a bad back.
Mike Myers has great value. Big Papi Ortiz is 2 for 11 against him with 1 walk. J.D. Drew is 0 for 6 against him. Having a second lefty in the pen limits what opposing managers can do.
The addition of Luis Vizcaino is what will keep Bruney and/or Britton off the roster, not Villone or Myers.
But my main point is let’s wait and see what happens before making any judgments.
This entry was posted
on Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 at 7:24 pm by Peter Abraham.
You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed.
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
And the words “small, meaningless sample” should start echoing through Peter’s head … now.
Peter, How about creating Poll for Yankees Fans about Which of these should make 25 rosters? Bruney, Karstens,Britton or Trade Myers?
Chappy: And there is some kind of large, meaningful sample for Bruney and Britton? Myers has been in the big leagues a long, long time. He is proven effective in one-batter situations.
Sorry that Joe Torre and Brian Cashman disagree with you.
Why is everyone so down on Villone anyway? He was pretty decent last year until Torre ran him into the ground and his fastball dropped about 10 MPH.
Yeah, I agree with Peter, and Torre and Cashman too.
Villone as the not-overused lefty out of the pen is valuable in building that 7th and 8th inning bridge to Rivera. So are Farnsworth, Proctor, and Myers.
Myers is the LOOGY, and having him to face David Ortiz or J.D. Drew or Aubrey Huff or Jay Gibbons or Lyle Overbay or Carl Crawford or Jim Thome or Darin Erstad….is a good tool to have in the pen.
“or Darin Erstad”
We need Myers so he can get out one of the worst hitters in baseball?
I don’t really have a problem with Myers on the team, but I’m not big on Villone at all. Yes he was overworked by Torre at the end last year, but he’s shown himself to be, at best, a slightly above average reliever. I don’t think that’s worth the $2 million he gets if he makes the team as well as less of a chance for a guy like Karstens, Beam, Britton, or Bruney to show if they can get out major league hitters.
To be fair though, the only guy I see having much potential is Bruney — that FB is just flat out nasty, although he does have piss poor command — and you can’t faul tthe Yankees here when he’s not even healthy.
i don’t think anyone is ready to vote chris britton and brian bruney into cooperstown. their numbers from last year were good, and many fans would like to see them given a roster spot from the beginning. i think it’s understandable that people are excited about seeing these younger pitchers.
Villone has always had weak second halfs compared to pre all star break – we should expect the same, whether Joe over uses him like last year or not. Then he gets time to rest while we bring in Henn and then we can have him back for the playoffs.
Great post Pete – I am one of those people against using Mike Myers, but I guess it was lingering impressions after he gave up that monster home run last year to Boston, when one of the primary bonuses to signing him was the ability to get Ortiz out in pressure situations, where he obviously does a lot of damage.
Pete, you need to look at Vizcaino’s splits. He’s great against lefty hitting, better than he is against righties.
You aren’t doing Joe, Cash, Villone, or Myers any favors saying Vizcaino being on the team is why Britton or Bruney are not going to make the team.
Luis Vizcaino has held left handed batters to a .214 AVG with a .340 SLG over the past three years. Why in the world would we need to carry two LH relief pitchers in addition to Vizcaino? Brian Bruney (in a moderate sample of 150 ABs against LH hitters) has held lefties down as well, and possesses an absolutely fantastic fastball. Villone’s numbers against lefties are solid, but very similar to Vizcaino’s, and right handed hitters hit Vilone to a near .800 OPS over the past 3 years.
I want the best overall arms coming out of the pen. One of Villone or Myers should be left in Tampa, because there’s absolutely no reason to carry two left handed specialists, especially when a power right handed pitcher that is capable of getting lefties out *as well* as righties is being left off the roster.
Sure, a lot can change in a month, but right now, if Bruney and Britton were left off the team to make space for two junkballing lefties who can’t get out a RH hitter if their life depended on it, I will be absolutely furious.
Vizcaino held lefties to a .163 average last season. Proctor held them to .204 and Farnsworth .215, all in significantly more at bats than Myers. Even Cashman agrees, saying: “They neutralize left-handers significantly.�
Myers was more successful against righties (.224 BA against) than he was against lefties (.257 BA against). That is not what you want out of your left-handed specialist.
Last year was unusual for Myers. He’s as much of a LOOGY as there is. Vizcaino is a solid reliever, period. Lefties or righties. He’s no specialist. If you’re going to carry seven relievers, which they are, the extra body is quite likely going to be a lefty.
Villone was pretty damn good last season until Joe wore him out. With Jaret Wright gone, they should have fewer innings to account for. Throw in the extra reliever all season (which they plan to do) and they should be able to keep everybody fairly fresh.
as soon as kei igawa starts getting lit up by major league hitters and carl pavano suffers his umpteenth setback, everyone’s bullpen worries will be a thing of the past.
and don’t forget, at least the yankees know who’ll be pitching the 8th and 9th innings. that’s a better situation than, ahem, some other teams.
don’t forget that other than the first half of last season, villone was a sub-mediocre, basically journeyman reliver, and he was awful from mid-July on. Some was definitely overwork, but some had to be regression to his real level. That is what’s scary. Bruney and Britton are better options, and as others have pointed out, Vizcaino is death to lefties. Why did Cashman resign him in the first place instead of taking the compensation pick?
Pete, Villone was very good last year for the first half, but he also out-performed much of his career averages/norms during that stint. I can’t believe for a second that he’s going to *ever* re-create that type of performance, and if he does, I’ll gladly eat crow.
The point remains: Why should we bring another left handed specialist north when guys like Bruney, Farnsworth, Vizcaino can get lefties out just as well as righties. It just doesn’t seem very logical. At all. Carrying two lefty specialists in the bullpen will promote the same type of overextension of guys like Proctor, Farnsworth and Rivera that we saw last year in Villone’s usage.
I love Brian Cashman. I think he’s brilliant, but he should have let Villone walk, because he needs to know that if Torre is posed with the choice of keeping a “tough veteran” like Villone or an “unproven young player” like Bruney or Britton, he’s *always* going to take the veteran. See Williams, Bernie.
All I know from watching ballgame last year when Mike Myers’s pitching against his former team, He melts under pressure and lose his concentration. He gave a up homerun to Ortiz twice. He hit his former teammate Mirabelli by giving up winning rin. I think Yankees should trade Myers. Do you think Igawa’s can fit that role if Myers is traded as lefty specialist out of the bullpen? Igawa can be first lefty in the bullpen if the Yankees are in the playoffs. What do you think? Should Yankees move Igawa’s to bullpen and called up Hughes or Sanchez? Thanks
Personally, I have nothing against Villone. He did a fantastic job in the first half of 06. My problem with the Yankees keeping him is that this means they will be going into 07 with essentially the same bullpen as 06. Last year’s pen was OK. Not great, just OK. And if last year turns out to have been a fluke year for Proctor, then the pen sinks from being OK to just plain “eh”.
With all due respect, putting a pitcher on the roster for one batter doesn’t equate to having great value.
The pen will change when the Yankees find a fair trade for one of their many righties. The only reason and I mean the ONLY reason why Bruney and Britton could start the year in AAA is because the Yankees are waiting on a deal(s). I wouldn’t be surprised if the Yankees trade 2 righties from their surplus. The fact that Britton/Bruney have options allows Cashman to buy more time as he waits for fair offers. I know Cleveland really needs a closer and I would not be surprised if Cashman waits for the right deal for Farnsworth. There are no takers on Myers yet because he makes 2.5 mil and Henn hasn’t proven anything. Henn must make the team because he’s out of options. Perhaps he can be moved in a deal as well so we don’t lose him for nothing. Good things come to those who wait but let’s sit back for a moment and look at our depth. We have 3 bullpens-worth of arms.
Rivera
Farnsworth
Proctor
Vizcaino
Bruney
Britton
Villone
Myers
Karstens
Rasner
Beam
Whelan
Cox
Veras
Sanchez (possibly)
Henn
Rich: 19 games against the Red Sox. That’s 19 possible times Ortiz can come up late in games. Myers has great value there. Ortiz hit homer off him once last season but Myers won the other battles.
No idea why I am answering the troll of 1000 names….but facts are facts.
Mike Myers gave up 3 homeruns last season.
1 to Boston (Ortiz)1, not 2, not 3, not 18…1
1 to Baltimore (Tatis)
1 to Tampa Bay (Crawford)
__
3
Myers pitched in 11 games vs Boston, over 4.1 innings, 3 runs given up other than Ortiz’s HR. Not so bad.
Yeah, Bruney pitched in non-pressure situations… like the playoffs! Come on. Give me a break.
The Yankees owe it to themselves to see if Bruney is the real deal. If he can repeat his performance from last year, he might be better than both Proctor and Farnsworth. He has the stuff of Frans with the durability of Proctor. Sending him back to the minors for Villone, Myers or Karstens is just plain silly.
A lefty specialist has value — especially if you have to face Ortiz all the time — but having a guy who’s so limited puts a bigger burden on the bullpen. He’s only going to pitch a third of what a normal bullpen guy would, and his teammates have to make up for that. I’d rather have Villone be the left-hander out of the ‘pen and bring along Bruney then have Villone AND Myers and no Bruney — Villone and Bruney have more value together than Villone and Myers.
Vizcaino=death to lefties? HAHA thats funny. You bullpen fanatics need to get together and decide how you really feel. Some of you say Vizcaino will be terrible, others have him as the a lefty specialist, lol. Also villone isn’t just a lefty specialist, he is good in that he can come in early in a game when a starter bombs and give you 2 or 3 innings and hold the other team down until you get to the big guns like Farns and Proctor.
Using villone in big spots in the 8th inning will probably equal trouble for your pen. Thats why having lots of depth is a good idea. And the main reason for the yankees starting out with the vets is it gives them OPTIONS, Lets all say that together again OPTIONS! If you cut the old guys, and the young guys get hurt or bomb out then you are in trouble.
And one last thing, I was in favor of getting a draft pick for Villone, but clearly he wasn’t signing anywhere anytime soon. So its not like we lost a pick, we never had it to begin with. I rather have a guy like Villone who wants to be here and proved he can be successful.
Oh and Sean Henn and Colter Bean suck, now I’ve said my piece.
I have a question about Villone’s options.
Since Villone was signed to a minor league contract, does he get a whole new set of minor league options? That is, can the Yankees assign him to the minors without losing him?
Or, does Villone’s contract specify that he has a right to void the contract if he’s kept in the minors?
The problem with Myers is his ideal use is for 1 batter, and because of that he is taking up a full space on the roster, but making all of the other pitchers have to do a little more than they would have to do if there was another full service pitcher in the pen. Britton was outstanding as a rookie for Baltimore. Bruney’s era was under 1. Villone crapped the sheets after the allstar break last year and there is no reason to believe he will do any better after another year on the planet. Joe has “trust” issues, but too often they aren’t based on consistently good production.
Thanks, Paul. You beat me to the punch.
At least some of us do our research.
Phil: my point exactly. Myers is the best lefty they have out of the pen, but I do hate one batter specialists precisely for the reasons you give.
Pete…it should be noted that Ortiz is OHFER his lifetime versus Krazy Kyle Farnsworth. Farns OWNS him.
I like having Myers as an option too…but certainly don’t mind an Ortiz/ Farns match up
Bottom line is that Myers takes up a spot of someone who is much more useful is winning games and keeping guys like Proctor and Villone fresh at the end of the season. Proctor was pitching in blowout games last season for NO REASON, we need guys on the roster who can go out there and hold the line no matter if theres a lefty or righty coming up. Scott Proctor having elbow problems in December is probably a direct result of being abused by Torre last season.
if there are 18 guys ‘ML-worthy’, what’s the problem with picking 7 of them?
the straight facts.
Myers 2006
30.2 ip, 3.23 era
righties hit .631 OPS
lefties hit .740 OPS
1st half – 1.62 era
2nd half – 5.14 era
vs. BOS, 4.1 ip, 6.23 era
vs. TB, 4 ip, 6.75 era
vs. KC, 4 ip, 0 era
vs. BAL, 4 ip, 0 era
vs. TOR, .2 ip, 13.50 era
CAREER
righties hit .887 OPS
lefties hit .623 OPS
1st half, 3.82 era
2nd half, 4.74 era
vs. Ortiz, 12 pa, .705 OPS
VILLONE 2006
80.1 ip, 5.04 era
righties hit .841 OPS
lefties hit .611 OPS
1st half, 2.27 era
2nd half, 8.35 era
vs. BOS, 10.1 ip, 9.58 era
vs. BAL, 10 ip, 5.40 era
vs. TB, 6.2 ip, 8.10 era
vs. TOR, 7.2 ip, 4.70 era
CAREER
righties hit .784 OPS
lefties hit .709 OPS
1st half, 4.44 era
2nd half, 5.09 era
vs. Ortiz, 13 pa, 1.692 OPS!
I can kinda understand Myers making the team, but Villone, with those stats, c’mon!
Expect igawa to be eating up the innings in relief… I don’t think he has the stuff to last as a starter, I like him in small doses better.
All of this Bruney love will come to a screeching halt the day he walks in the winning run in the 12th (my guess June 2, on Fox, in Boston). “Hey, how ya like me now!”
Somebody save a copy of this and the earlier Villone post comments. I want to see all of today’s ranters try to weasel out of their comments then.
Oh, I forgot, for the sample size folks.
2005 Brian Bruney ARZ
G 47 IP 46.0 ERA 7.43 WHIP 1.98 K/9 9.98
But you gotta like those K’s!
Myers is just painful to watch.
i dont want to see the ball anywhere near farnsworthless’s hand when there is a meaningful out to get in a big game, ever.
Funny people rip on Farnsworth so much, don’t remember them complaining when he came in and got big outs against Ortiz all those times. Also other than the one blown save in Detroit, I believe(someone will have to check this for me) that Farnsworth was lights out when he filled in for Mo in September. We know he’s not an allstar but a guy who can hit 99 with his fastball and locate it, and throw a late breaking slider…well that has a lot of value in my mind.
As for the Myers argument, when people say he’s a waste of a roster spot I wonder how he is anymore of a waste than the last man on the bench or that extra 5th outfielder everyone here wants. Take Bubba for example, he played what, maybe once every 2 weeks. He’d come in to play center or right in a close game for 1 maybe 2 innings top. He rarely got to hit unless someone got hurt or we blew a lead. So how is that more valuable than a guy in the bullpen who can come in in a tight situation and retire one of the best hitters in the league ala Ortiz. And its just not ortiz we use him against. There are a lot of big lefties in the AL. If myers gets ortiz that could save 1, 2, 3 or maybe even 4 runs. Thats far more then Bubba or whomever will save with his glove in the outfield for one inning. I rather carry the extra pitcher then the extra outfielder.
there are plenty of guys who can throw hard, and farnsworth definately cant locate his… prob kind of works in his favor in some cases, makes the hitter unccomfortable in the box.
but i keep thinking if his meltdown in game 4 of the nlds in 2005, and i am positively sure i dont want him to have the ball.
Lights out and Farnsworth are not necessarily words that should be used in the same sentence.
And by the way, who said that Bruney and Britton are on the path to Cooperstown? If I remember correctly, (many) people think they project better than Villone for 2007. Is that really unreasonable?
I dont know if anyone can reasonably predict anything from Bruney and Britton for this season; and we can only take the words of the coaching staff when they say Villone has looked strong so far this spring.
Myers is fine at getting lefties out, but think of it this way: that’s all he’s good for. Historically, righties have just destroyed him.
Just like any LOOGY, with Myers you are sacrificing innings and versatility for an ability to get lefties out. If he can still get lefties out on a near-constant basis, then he may be worth keeping. If not, he should be replaced without a second thought because he adds no value to the team.
As for Villone, I think the sentiment against arises from the fact that he represents the “bad” Yankee team-building philosophy of relying on players with more name-recognition than talent. If I asked you, how would you like to add a 37 year old lefty reliever to your pen, with a career 4.78 ERA, for the price of $2.5 million (plus up to $300,000 in incentives), what would you respond? Probably “hell no.”
Now as Yankee fans, our opinions are skewed a bit because we saw some really good pitching out of Villone in the first half. But considering Villone’s age and track record, it’s more likely than not that his lousy second half is more indicative of what we’ll get from him in 2007.
Also, if anything is clear from the last few years, we need pitchers who are healthy and reliable in the playoffs. If we use Villone under the belief that he’ll give us his best work early in the season, we may need to think things over.
Sorry to break this to you Peter, but I would wager that both Villone and Myers will not be in the bullpen, if Bruney and Britton are both healthy.
I think you overestimate how much Cashman agrees with Torre’s moves.
** It will be either Villone or Myers, not both.
LET TORRE MAKE THE DECISION. I am all for casual disagreeing but you guys are crazy. You have no idea how good Britton is b/c I bet none of you can even remember ever seeing him pitch. If he had been a free agent and Cashman signed him to a 2yr/7mil deal you guys would want his head on a platter. There is about a month until opening day and by then I bet it is pretty clear who should be in the pen. Also, you gotta believe someone will get injured b/w now and then so………why don’t we wait and see, its March 1 people not October 1. Relax and lets start an argument about something important like if Jeter and A-Rod give each other high fives during the game
And SJK next time you talk to Cashman b4 Pete does, how about you post the audio on here, b/c you seem to know whats going on in the clubhouse and in Torre’s head. I would bet what Pete says has a lot more credibility than someone who watches YES all day long on his couch.
Folks have a little perspective. A bullpen is 7 guys, not 1. Britton and Bruney give us 2 more Proctors, Farns, and Vizcaino’s. Most major league hitters will succeed if you keep giving them the same look. A typical team’s gonna use 10+ RP’s in a season – Yanks have averaged 10 guys making at least 10 relief appearances over last 3 seasons – everybody’s gonna be around at times.
On Farnsworth, you talk like the guy pitched in ‘06 like Bruney did in ‘05. What if Farns pitches like he did in ‘05? 70 IP, 2.18 ERA, 16 saves, 1.01 WHIP, 87 K. Then we’d start hearing the calls to dump “old” Mo. Farns has a weird odd/even 7 year stat skew – while I’d tend to call that coincidence, let’s hope it continues for another year!
On Villone, again stats are a tricky read. In the last 2 years he’s become a 70+ appearance guy after 6 years of long relief & spot starts. And as a lefty he probably warmed up a few extra times as well. No wonder he’s worn down late. The addition of “Daily” Vizcaino lightens the load on all 3 setups from last year, so fatigue should be less of a problem. And as a lefty, Villone is the anti-Myers. How many LRP’s – like Villone – that have averaged 50+ IP over the last 3 seasons with over 7.5 K/9 and ERA under 4.50 moved in ‘06? Walker, Fultz, Cotts, Stanton. We didn’t get them. Nobody’d signed Villone, so no draft pick. Britton and Bruney. CB had 53 IP in his first season, Bruney’s never topped ’05’s “stellar” 47.
But they’re both young & still contending for the 12th spot. I’d expect Karstens to be starting in AAA as a backup starter, with Rasner contending for the long RP spot in NY or pithing in Scranton. The Yanks have used an average of 11 starters each season from 2000 on, the lowest being 9 in ‘03, with the 6th, 7th, & 8th guys averaging 11, 7, & 4 starts respectively. Plenty of work to go around, kids!
The Yankees have targeted free agent Mike Lowell and, as trade possibilities, Seattle’s Adrian Beltre and Florida’s Miguel Cabrera. St. Louis’ Scott Rolen is a dark-horse candidate.
testing…
Just testing my own theory…
Just testing my own theory…
Just testing my own theory…