Greetings from sunny California
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Apr 13, 2007 
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Here we are in Oakland, where it’s 60 and not a cloud in the sky. Nice change from Minnesota and New York.
Sorry for the lack of posts today. But after traveling yesterday and writing deep into the night, I slept in.
There is some news to report, however.
Chien-Ming Wang will pitch in an extended spring training game on Saturday. So that would line him up to return to the team around April 24 if all goes well. If the Moose comes through his hamstring, the Yankees should have their pitching in order soon.
I’ll check back in later with the lineups.
Good News. Thanks for the update.
[...] Chien-Ming Wang will take his first major step back toward the Yankee rotation tomorrow as he is set to make a start in Extended Spring Training. According to PeteAbe, the staff ace should step back into the rotation around April 24. Tonight, we’ll start to see if he’ll be replacing Kei Igawa or Darrell Rasner. [...]
Jeter: one of the worst defensive SS’s in baseball?
Phil Allard of NyyFans.com says Jeter’s Defense Could Sink Yanks’ Title Hopes
http://www.nyyfans.com/article/8616/
thoughts?
OK, so the “weather excuse” cannot be applied to Igawa tonight. If he bombs (and gives up bombs) then it’s his own fault and nobody/nothing else can be blamed.
Igawa has to be good if the Yanks plan on winning tonight.
About that thing about Jeter’s defense: My thoughts? Just someone else who hates jeter and wants to find a reason to bash him. I’m not going to say Jeter is the best defensive short stop, but saying he’s the worst hardly warrants a response because it’s such an asburd thing to say, and whoever would say that is only concerned with bashing jeter, not talking baseball.
Defensive metrics are far from perfect. The notion that Yuniesky Bettancourt or Jack Wilson “would have” fielded some ball that got by Jeter is way too subjective.
“My thoughts? Just someone else who hates jeter and wants to find a reason to bash him.”
this is not true of the author at all.
the whole range issue is a cop out for criticizing ANY player in ANY position. there is a whole hitting part to the game too, which, ya know, has to happen. so if you want players to get to every single ball, what the hell are they playing for? yeah, sometimes i wish jeter had better range to the left. but it’s not like there’s this huge issue where the Yankees are allowing unbelievable amounts of hits through the middle. i’ve seen jeter make a lot more above average plays on balls he does get too than i’ve seen him make errors. if you want perfection you’re in for some pretty serious disappointment. if jeter’s defense is SO horrible that it will cost them a championship then let’s trade him for Alex Gonzales. that would make the team a lot better i guess.
biz,
On Derek Jeter’s defense: He is the only shortstop on the planet that turns that third-inning double play on Wednesday night in the Metrodome. He is our Captain and the most important player on this team.
“The notion that Yuniesky Bettancourt or Jack Wilson “would haveâ€? fielded some ball that got by Jeter is way too subjective.”
please explain then why, year after year, those guys consistently get to more balls than jeter does.
“yeah, sometimes i wish jeter had better range to the left. but it’s not like there’s this huge issue where the Yankees are allowing unbelievable amounts of hits through the middle.”
actually, there is.
“i’ve seen jeter make a lot more above average plays on balls he does get too than i’ve seen him make errors”
fielding statistics DO include this fact.
okay, hmmm. you have a lot to say, now try making a point.
- what i said about the author is just the personal vibe i got when i read it. it doens’t really matter at all and is not the topic rightn now.
-find me the statistic to show that you know for a fact that the hits allowed by the yankees are overwhelmingly ground balls through the middle that jeter didn’t get to.
-yes, fielding statistics do include that fact…i don’t know if i said they didn’t.
“…he’s great at the things that don’t matter that much and not so good at the one thing that matters a lot.”
This comment bothers me, it really bothers me. I just cannot fathom how much it bothers me. I’m not trying to say Jeter is the best defensive shortstop but, to me, that statement has no validity. Does this guy even watch games? Let me stop before I throw up what I just ate.
Jeter and Arod are not perfect…but as close to perfect as you can get these days.
…got through…thanks, Pete…
drag wang won’t be ready for the red sox series. it’d be really nice to not have to throw pavano, igawa and rasner and the red sox, i don’t care how early in the season it is.
thanks to those who had my back in the other thread. i appreciate it.
i’m not saying tonight is a make-or-break start for igawa, or that tonight’s start determines whether or not the signing was a success. i’m saying i don’t think he’s ready to pitch at the big league level, and i think we saw that throughout spring training and his first start. i think if he demonstrates an inability (once again) to get his breaking and off-speed pitches over, then it might be time to consider letting him hone those pitches in the minors for a while. they’ve got him for four years and we’ve been told since day one that he’s “an investment” and is not expected to make an immediate impact. okay, then, let’s treat him that way. there’s no sense in throwing the kid out there to try and learn to play at this level if he’s just going to get shelled every time out. that’s counterproductive.
We don’t indulge fish on this blog. Keep up the good work everyone. Go Yanks!
Truth: Jeter’s range to his left is not what it was at one time.
Truth: EVERY player in the game has a weakness.
Truth: EVERY team in the majors would want Derek Jeter on its team.
Sometimes, folks get too caught up in numbers in trying to justify everything that happens in baseball. Without context, numbers can be meaningless.
Derek Jeter is a player you have to see everyday to truly appreciate how good he is.
I am a HUGE ARod fan. I think he is a once in a generation player. Yet, I find it fascinating that the same “experts” who find fault with everything Jeter does, are often the same people who had Jeter ranked third in the infamous, “who’s a better SS, Jeter, ARod or Nomar”, in the late 90′s.
Jeter not only outlasted them all at the position he lapped Nomar as a better all around player.
Last year, especially with all the injuries, was Jeter’s best season as a Yankee.
He isn’t a perfect player but, he’s a helluva lot better an all around player than 98% of the players in the game today.
One of the things I was hoping for going in to the year was that the addition of a 1st baseman with range (and the capability to throw to 2nd base) would help the defense up the middle b/c Cano wouldn’t have to cheat over. I still think this could help things overall. With Pavano and Wang generating tons of grounders this is a big issue.
“-find me the statistic to show that you know for a fact that the hits allowed by the yankees are overwhelmingly ground balls through the middle that jeter didn’t get to.”
i’m not sure what you are asking. i can’t offer anything as “fact”, all i can offer are the fielding statistics that are out there.
this is what you said:
“but it’s not like there’s this huge issue where the Yankees are allowing unbelievable amounts of hits through the middle”
and i am saying that yes, that is exactly what almost every advanced fielding metric is saying. that jeter allows more balls to get by him than other shortstops.
the statistics can then assign a run value to the number of balls that jeter isn’t getting to. the system the author referenced put that number at 21 runs for Jeter. that costs the Yankees about 2 wins over the course of the season.
i don’t want to start another holy war. some people refuse to believe in fielding statistics. that is fine. they are still evolving and they are not perfect.
the people who cannot believe how jeter does in these metrics are the people who watch the games and believe that if a ball gets by jeter, it wasn’t fieldable.
once you start to scratch the surface and question the validity of that assumption, you MIGHT start to see things differently. you might notice that jeter is particularly slow to his left.
that’s all i am saying.
it’s fine to be skeptical about the metrics. but a lot of them all seem to say the same thing.
“He isn’t a perfect player but, he’s a helluva lot better an all around player than 98% of the players in the game today.”
this is true.
Torre just said Pavano has “something in his forearm” and will not be starting until Tuesday. Rasner will pitch tomorrow. This from WFAN.
2001 world series, Luis gonzalez bloop hit thrue Jeter’s head
Bill James once said that that it can be argued that Derek Jeter is the worst defensive SSS of all time.
Take that as you want. Though it should be known that Jeter was never or will never be a top tier defensive player, which makes it a little weird why everybody was so shocked when he had a bad couple of games to start the season.
Oh and before someone pulls out the “Gold Glove” card, we should all know now that the award is more of a recognition title than a defensive plaque.
I’ll take him and his defense over any other SS in the league though
as long as pavano actually goes on tuesday, that’s fine. they’re dropping like flies.
Bill James…..the same man who once said that Mariano Rivera, and closers in general, are the most overrated players on a team.
Yup, great resource for info. A great self-promoter and little else, except for those sabermatric fans who hang on his every word.
jh,
the infield was in for a play at the plate–I don’t think it is fair to blame Jeter for that. (ugh, I feel ill whenever I think about that play).
“I’ll take him and his defense over any other SS in the league though.”
so would i, in a heartbeat.
98% of the players would be a little bit too high. We all know that Derek Jeter isn’t really a “Gold Glove-worthy” SS, but saying he is the worst defensive SS in baseball is just ridiculous (just go ask Angel Berroa or Carlos Guillen).
Who’s Angel Berroa?
If you actually look at the Bill James quote he says “it CAN be argued…” Well, anything CAN be argued. In that same vein, it can be argued that Jeter is the best overall SS of all-time. Not saying that I would make that argument, just that it could be argued.
As for Jeet’s ‘D’ the only thing that you can ask of the guy is that he makes plays on everything that he gets to. Which he does for the most part. Granted his range to his left is a tad bit lacking, but even the fielding metrics that hated him five years ago scored him at least average over the past three seasons. The defensive metrics are a work in progress though, and certainly have their faults. I actually love watching him play his athletic brand of short (much more than I would enjoy watching range factor-god Adam Everett bat .220 every year).
Berroa is the guy who won ROY over Matsui and also a SS who just got cut by the lowly Royals this spring.
Would any of you trade Jeter? I mean, isn’t that the point of evaluating players using stats and observations and crediting intangibles? You decide what a player’s worth to you, not whether mathematically he comes out to a certain number or whether he’s going to win a baseball shortstop steel cage death match.
Baseball Stats (sabermetrics) are a tool, an additional way of interpreting baseball’s human resources data, not the superior or only way to interpret that data. Seems to me that Jeter is working out OK so far despite his dreadful flaws and shortcomings.
murphydog,
I agree. I also think teams use sabermetrics in arbitration situations, or to take a particular negotiating stance. It is probably useful in choosing a fantasy team.
My problem with all the stats out there is that they DO ignore the human factor and the “intangibles.” Stats are great, don’t get me wrong — they’re wonderful for animated conversations and comparing your guy to my guy, etc., etc. But they’re not the be-all and end-all. In the end the best baseball players may not always have the best stats all around. But they excel in so many different ways and they bring so many different things to a team. The people posting above who questioned whether anyone would be willing to trade Jeter have it right. Jeter’s overall worth to the Yankees as a total player carry more weight than the fact that he has a weakness fielding balls up the middle.
Also, the poster above who said that Jeter outlasted Nomar and A-Rod at shortstop. Well, for one, A-Rod voluntarily moved to 3rd in order to come to the Yankees. Any other team, he’d be the shortstop. He did outlast Nomar, but because of injuries, not because he suddenly became a lousy shortstop. So, I’m really not sure what you’re saying here.
Don’t let stats blind you. Numbers can say whatever you want them to say.
Again, my opinion on the critique of Gold Gloves. It is interesting to me how people who say that Jeter’s Gold Gloves are meaningless are the same people who say that the Yankees should go after (name the player) because he is a gold glove (name the position). Either they are a valued award or not. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t praise a player for being a gold glove player, and then criticize another players, saying he got his gold glove because people like him. Be consistent is what I’m saying.
“Jeter’s overall worth to the Yankees as a total player carry more weight than the fact that he has a weakness fielding balls up the middle.”
this is a total strawman. please point out who ever said it didn’t.
NO ONE ever said Jeter wasn’t an awesome player. no one is even debating that Jeter is the best shortstop in the league.
jeter is a first ballot hall of famer and one of the greatest hitting shortstops of all time.
but at the same time, his range costs the Yankees real runs. yes, he produces enough runs with his bat that he is still an elite player. but just because all of that other stuff is true, and that i wouldn’t trade Jeter, doesn’t mean i have to pretend certain things about him aren’t true.
hmmm:
Agreed.
jeter.
goes deep to the right as well as anyone. goes shallow field as well as anyone. quality arm. can steal a base. smart. doesn’t quit. makes plays others may give up on. hits behind as well as anyone. hits clutch. hits for average. very good obp. ninety something rbi, last season from the two hole. can lead off respectably. better than average on the bases. seems to always say the right thing. the leader, a leader. knows how to win. occasionally will hit one out. no one would trade him. most others would love to have him. maybe, maybe he doesn’t go left as well as a few others. hmmmmmmmm.