So much for that
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- April
- 20
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Give Joe Torre credit. It only took him until April 20 to break his vow never to use Mariano Rivera for more than one inning. Not that anybody really believed he would keep that promise.
If Kyle Farnsworth can’t be trusted with a four-run lead in the eighth inning, what’s the point in having him?
The first two innings of this game lasted only 24 minutes and I remember wondering if this would be a quick game. But it never is with these two teams.
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on Friday, April 20th, 2007 at 10:08 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
yikes
Apparently Mo can’t be trusted with a 4 run lead either.
wow.
but jeter and arod in the 9th.
He might not end up using him for more than one inning. Mo can’t seem to get outs at the moment.
lkfvlsv nzx,/h’[oxighae’rolkn
If there’s a plus, no papelbon tonight.
that’s my edited version of what I’m feeling right now.
Pete, I understand there are children and grandmothers reading this.
Papelbon threw a lot of pitches yesterday… This could be interesting.
Why is Mientkewicz so far off the line in this situation? It is obvious that when you bear that cutter in on the hands, it can be pulled down the line. So why is he not on the line preventing an extrabase hit?
OMG
Mariano is the anti-ARod this month. He probably couldn’t hold a ten run lead right now.
Why didnt’ brian come in???
Well, I guess this didn’t go as planned.
What’s up with Mo?
God, what is happening to Mo?
At least Nieves is making big outs for both teams. You do realize that if we don’t get to Papelbutt in the 9th now, we’ll be hearing a lot about it? (Avoid espn.com for a few weeks)
If he is on the line, that could be a double play ball. Am I the only person thinking this way?
What’s this world coming to!? ARod is more reliable then Mo!?
Hasn’t Mo been terrible in the early going in the year for the past few seasons. Didn’t be blow a couple saves in the first week or two of the season last season? And didn’t he blow a couple saves a couple seasons ago to start off the season again the Red Sox. And back to back blown saves here?
good thing we pinch ran for giambi!
this could lead to a sweep tough inning
Mo Never should have even been needed for this game!! brian bruney should have been called and pitched the 8th!!
This all started with a lead off walk by Luis…so far it looks like Proctor and Bruney are the only two in the bullpen who can get people out.
Reminds me of Arizona in ‘01.
Is Mo just rusty?
I hate to say it, but Mariano is our biggest problem right now. Making Cash look smart not extending him.
it would be… who knows what defense they’re playing.
we’ll learn if Minky screwed up or not.
I’d also like to point out that Mo blew two saves early in April a couple of years ago… and proceded to blow through the rest of the year.
nothing’s wrong with Mo.
it’s April.
let’s get this back, boys.
Rally ?
It’s the LOOGY’s fault
That we couldn’t stick the L to Schilling bothers me tremendously. We should never, ever lose this game.
Go NYR, it probably could have been a double play, but you would have probably been saying what wasn’t he more off of the line, if the ball just made it through the hole in the right infield.
Mo has not pitched AT ALL. They either win by 8 or hit a walkoff. He is thowing hard but he clearly needs work. I dont understand why Torre did not put him in a blowout just for work. He is a great pitcher but needs daily work
beavis i made that same comment, why pr for jason? he can’t run for 1st to 2nd?
He has 11 blown saves against the Red Sox. No exactly a surprise considering how often they see each season. Maybe they’ve seen too much of him. Familiarity breeds contempt .. or something. I don’t know.
what’s the over/under on when we’ll hear from someone… “now’s the test for A-Rod.”
anyone?
No I would not have. It would not have been a 3 run triple if it was through the hole
you cant blame arod if the yankees lose. that’s ridiculous.
We better not wait ’til two outs: Thompson and Nieves in the middle of the lineup, yikes…Joe didn’t see this coming.
Okijawatchacallsit is pitching
I agree with Wouter.
I wish we could’ve stuck this to 38.com.
more so… if we end up losing this thing…
… we’re going to hear about how this game might be the telling point of the entire season.
now, obviously it’s a game. The difference between being two games back and tied for the division lead.
but… c’mon.
really? This is the momentum shift for these two teams?
I don’t think so.
Not to make any excuses for MO but he is use to Jorgie behind the plate. IDK if he is better withpitch selection or whatever but how often do you see a catcher other than Jogie catch MO
Man, this is a bummer.
The biggest problem is Joe. He can’t manage game situations.
He takes out Giambi for Thompson but doesn’t have Nieves bunt. Why take out Giambi and not have Nieves bunt? Stupid move, cost him a run and now they can just walk ARod and pitch to KT.
You have a 4 run lead in the 8th inning. Why Myers? Ortiz can’t hit a grand slam in that situation? Let Proctor pitch to Ortiz and Manny and if there is trouble, use Myers to pitch to Drew.
Nope. He completely mismanages the inning, topped off by having Mariano in the 8th. Now, the entire bullpen is on fumes once again, he has a Mariano problem and he shows himself to be a HORRIBLE and I mean HORRIBLE in game manager.
Cost him another game. Brutal.
Rocco – by no means was I saying that.
but someone will.
bet on it.
A-Rod special?
never faced this guy they are in trouble
very disheartening…
A-ROD TIME
abreu should steal imo
let me take that back… dont want to intent walk arod
SJ44- agree with the Thompson-for-Giambi. That just didn’t make any sense. We need to pad a 4-run lead?
(I know we did NOW… but… c’mon.)
He put Myers in because of the numbers. Simple enough.
the rest of it… I don’t know.
damned if you do, damned if you don’t with the bullpen right now. At least it seems like it.
and here we go.
let’s go, Underdog.
Yup send him.
Pettitte was better than Schilling tonight yet he went only 6.1 to Schilling’s 7.
The seeds of the bullpen meltdown were sown when he left the game.
Kevin Thompson will decide this game?
really?
… really?
send him only if its a hit and run
Hey KT has some pop
SJ44 totally agree!!
okay… let’s wait on it.
who’s going to say it first.
I say hello?offense?
I was thinking the same thing Go NYR. But, he should still be able to get those outs. Now it’s still early, and he’s not been seeing enough action lately. But damn, this hurts.
Btw sammy, I also think it’s a bit ridiculous people ascribing momentum changes to this. Mo needs to get back on track, that much is obvious. But we also showed 38pitches (hope he doesn’t play down getting knocked around now) is vulnerable, and we’re still missing 3/5 of our starting rotation, plus 5 innings with our automatic-out backup catcher (nothing against Nieves, but in that situation, I’m not sure I want to see him in the 6 hole)
It’s one game. But we better not let it turn into three.
now abreu should steal with 2 outs.
SEND HIM JOE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I also dont think that 1st pitch was a strike
sorry… I fed the troll.
sorry, everyone.
I’ll shut up about that.
We had this game won!! it should be at the point! mo should be pitching the bottom of the 9th now!
why isn’t abreu trying to steal?
Ravich: “How concerned are you if you’re that man (Torre) with Rivera’s last two outings?”
Baker: “… … … hmmm-mmmm.”
instant classic.
that was disheartening as someone wrote, it is only april, but the next 2 games will be tough to “steal” even if as sterling says you cant handicap baseball
good night
Nice managing there joe. You should have been fired long ago. Outright hackery.
all right.
we hunker down.
and get the next two.
a;lksdjfa;l.
just… shoot.
Always someone to blame.
i odnt care about the loss… its just the way they lost that hurts.
Couple of questions. Why use Proctor in the 7th? Why not use Bruney at all? Why go to Mariano in the 8th? Bad managing. Thats all there is to say
Not like it really matters, but are we sure Thompson swung at that?
fire torre, hire pinella… oh wait.
Well Joe didn’t break his promise.. he didn’t have to use him more than one inning.. after that debacle.
I’m sure Arod would be happeier about this HR’s if they’d actually ended up winning the game.
I am also curious why isn’t Phelps pinch hitting for Thompson here?
This game is 100% on Joe Torre. A horrific job of managing.
The good news? Its only April. The bad news? Joe can’t manage a game situation to save his life and we now officially have a Mariano problem.
Just an awful, awful night for Joe Torre. He’s lucky George isn’t George anymore or he’d have a lot of ’splainin’ to do for this one.
why did he pinch run for giambi?@!!!!
Peter please tear Torre a new one in the paper. He should have gone to Bruney in the 8th, and should never have gone to Mo with runners on base after not pitching for 4 days. Wow was that bad.
That’s that. Tomorrow’s another day. Go Yanks!
Well, I feel sick. at least its only april. When was the last time Mo blew two games back to back? Pete?
This game had a perfect storm of all the Joe Torre mistakes. Bad pen managment, a stupid pitch running move and just a what game are you watching Joe – pinch hitting move letting Thompson bat.
This game once again proves what a bad bullpen manger Joe Torre is.
It was complaceny beavis
The last lights-out reliever to get walloped two times in a row like this was the Jays’ BJ Ryan. He’s on the DL. Wonder if Mo’s arm is hurt.
Where was Phelps and why wasn’t he pinch hitting for Thompson
Torre is far too loyal to the concept of the “8th inning guy.” Regardless of who it is. Nelson and Stanton are long gone (at least the effective versions)… you have to use the guy who has been most effecive of late, and that is Bruney.
Also, has Meyers ever succesfully retired Ortiz?
Phelps was in the on-deck circle to pinch hit for Minky.
“why did he pinch run for giambi?@!!!!”
Because he needs to show everyone how brilliant a tactician he is. He is a godawful game manager.
Phelps was on deck to hit for the pitcher…I mean catcher.
Didn’t Mo get knocked around opening day last year vs. Boston? Twice? Not to worry.
Does Giambi have a contract stipulation that says he can’t play past the 7th? Last year it was for a defensive replacement, this year for a pinch runner. Damn Joe, leave him in!
This loss in not going to make or break the season, however, if Joe Torre continues to manage like this we can forget about WS appearence this year as well.
Horrendous managing. Torre already has no faith in Vizcaino? 1 bad outing? Where was Farns or Bruney?
The Thompson move is just stupid. Most of the times and especially tonight. 5-2 lead in the top of the 8th in Fenway….oh yeah, we won’t need Giambi’s bat again.
Lets hope Joe Giradri’s phone rings soon so we can get a manager in there.
You almost had me convinced that Pettitte should have been removed when he was, but why not leave Proctor in longer when he is going well. And obviously they need to rethink Vizcaino’s role. Uck so f’in frustrating. I think I’m going to pretend we won this one, make life easier.
What a terrible job by Torre. Now I remember why he almost lost his job at the end of last year. Rivera in the 8th inning in April? So this game is THAT important? But wait… Thompson has a stick in his hand with Phelps on the bench with 2 out in the 9th? So maybe it ISN’T that important. Oh brother. I’m confused. What’s going on here? It’s only April and Torre’s inability to manage a bullpen is already front and center.
Torre is a horrible manager and it showed again today. Going to Myers started it all.
great phelps was in the on deck circle… Guess what joe…3 outs..he never got in the game. got to use him.
Mo had his problems with Boston in April 05. I don’t know, wonder if Phil Hughes can pitch in relief.
We get no chance in the next 2 games. What a bummer.
Can someone please explain why Rivera hasn’t pitched since Sunday…after his last batting practice of a save?? It is obvious that he has absolutely ZERO location. So he sits on the bench for the week???!!! He doesn’t ask to get back into another game to get his mechanics and location down and Torre with all the brains leaves him in the bullpen?? Mo has done this for the last couple of years where he blows his first couple of saves!! He needs to pitch not sit in the bullpen for 4 days!!! Just ridiclious…Also Myers NEVER gets Ortiz out and that is his one job that he has. Vizcaino is now Torres new boyfriend why is he being trusted in the 8th inning??
Thank you Joe Torre and Mariano Rivera for ruining a great night for the Yankees, A-Rod, and tomorrows paper headlines. Also, thanks for blowing a game we HAD TO HAVE.
i think thompson was in the db spot, and if phelps pinch hit for him they wojuldnt have a catcher, i’m not 100% sure of the rule but it has to be it
phelps is the emergencyh catcher so if thompson gets on hes up
either way farnsworth should be traded for whatever they can get, should minky have been on the line ???
why not have proctor start the 8th and have meyers come in to face jd drew ???
bruney pitched yesterday but do did luis vizcaino, ahhh just really tough
hopefully mariano turns it around like he did in 05 after the tough start
boston is going to be real real tough this year
He pinch run for Giambi cuz he’s got peg legs and they had a lead. Joe Torre did not lose this game. It was Mo (with the LOOGY as an accomplice) Did MO give up even 9 runs in the whole season last year? Torre had every expectation that Mo would get the job done like he always has. Everyone needs to get over it and move on.
Torre come on. Give Farns a chance there.
Mo will be ok.
That hurts though
Hey guys just found this blog and it seems to be very good and torre was going to have phelps ph for nieves so i guess it was pick your poison who do you want up phelps to ph for thomson or nieves and if nieves was taken out for a ph who would of been catcher
Lets wait and see but Cash was smart for not extending Mo. Even the great ones decline.
I love how baseball games turn some men into babbling illogical brats, lol. It’s funny.
SJ44,
I think Joe thought Thompson’s bat was better than Nieves. If Phelps gets a single there, you’re stuck with Nieves or Cairo batting. Tough call.
Mo seems rusty, and is missing badly with location but he has earned the benefit of the doubt. He didn’t execute and deserves blame. Until this becomes a long trend, I believe he’ll be okay.
However, Joe totally mismanaged this game. I would have let Pettitte finish the 7th. Even if he gave up some runs that left Proctor for the 8th. And why Myers? It’s a 4 run lead. You don’t need a lefty specialist there! Stick with Proctor to face Ortiz and Manny.
I had a bad feeling seing Vizcaino after how bad he was yesterday.
Hey, Mo still could have blown it in the 9th, but Torre totally bungled this game.
Torre completely lost the game. You don’t go to Myers in that spot and that started everything. He overmanaged yesterday and did the same thing today.
“Also, has Meyers ever succesfully retired Ortiz?”
No, he hasn’t, which just makes him even more useless. I can’t recall ONE TIME that he has come in and done the job that we signed him to do. He was the “Ortiz Killer” but every gosh darn time he comes in against Ortiz, Ortiz hits him.
Pinch running for Giambi with a four run lead? WITH A FOUR RUN LEAD AGAINST YOUR RIVALS!?
Bringing in Vizciano, a day after he threw 33 pitches and had a rough outing? Is he trying to destroy his arm?
Bringing the infield in for Rivera, who does nothing but give up those little dinky hits to the outfield? Remember Game 7 of I don’t know, the 2001 World Series? Remember EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU BRING THE INFIELD IN WHEN RIVERA IS ON THE MOUND.
And then he has the guts to let Kevin Thompson, a guy who has had maybe one at bat in two weeks, hit in a situation when the game is on the line, and you have Phelps who has been hot at the plate, kills lefty pitching, was brought in FOR SITUATIONS LIKE THIS, and has gotten on a little streak (two for four two days ago, and then a HR yesterday) as of late?
I know it’s April, but no game in April has ever gotten me this mad. Ever.
Nothing wrog with going to Myers for Ortiz. Thats why he’s on the team.
Torre wanted to get this thing won so he went to Mo. That’s understandable too. He probably knows that we have a high probability of losing tomorrow and Sunday so he wanted this win at all costs.
Kevin Thompson for Giambi? OK, he wanted more insurance, which backfired when the score got tied. Oops. I bet he never thought about that.
Mo need to work He hasnt pitched since Tuesday. Could have predicted that.
But the boys will come out fired up tomorrow. You know it. Watch out.
Also taking Giambi out of the game is another one of Clueless’s great moves!!! Nieves was up next did Torre really think that he was going to get a hit??!! I mean come on..Torre did it in the game against Oakland and then they did not have him for the extra innings. He better wake up!!!
If I see the words “makes for a great story”, I’m gonna puke.
“Also, has Meyers ever succesfully retired Ortiz?”
Several times from what I remember.
Yeah, several times.
Using the loogy instead of an effective Proctor with a 4 run lead is stupid. Not to mention pinch running for Giambi with the same 4 run lead. Torre needs to be fired for this team to win in the postseason.
Look, its a tough loss and its frustrating. But, this is a night where blame is real easy to pin. What in the world was Joe thinking in the last two innings of the game?
As Jim said, a perfect storm formed of all of Joe’s weaknesses as a manager.
Its like watching the Tigers series all over again in one inning.
A long season but, a bad loss and now we have a huge worry with Mariano and a manager who can’t manage game situations.
No Phelps, who hit a HR yesterday and had another hit, for Thompson in the 9th? I mean, come on.
The pitching stunk in the 8th but, the managing was worse.
Managers only really decide about 6-8 games a year and this was one of them and Torre blew it big time.
Now, gotta hope for a weekend split, and pray to God the lead is large enough for even Torre not to spit the bit.
c’mon guys suck it up, it’s just a game right?
I mean last week we were praising Myers, saying howcome this guy is just one out pitcher? and things like that, you do remember the basics don’t you? lefty pitcher for a lefty batter?
The fact is that Mo blew it, so what? we’ll get’em tomorrow…
this is why we need bernie!! everyone said we need speedy reserves like kevin thompson. no, we need a good bat off the bench like bernie, something this team sorely lacks
Actually you are wrong, Mariano still has yet to pitch more than 1 inning this in a game this season.
Pete, what is wrong with Mo – Frans would be better right now.
Well we wont see Rivera again until the next series. Karstens and Wright are lucky if they last 2 innings each.
I’m sick to my stomach and I blame this ENTIRELY on Torre. If we’re coming from behind and/or blowing people out, Mo has to pitch WHETHER IT IS A SAVE SITUATION OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He’s rusty. Plain and simple. Again, Torre can’t manage what is actually a better bullpen than last year. Andy was terrific and Alex? It’s sick what he’s doing.
Peter, relatively new reader here. This loss hurts, even though it IS April. I just wish someone would call Torre out on his mind-boggling moves – pitching Vizcaino after a rough 30 pitches yesterday, pinch-running for Giambi WAY too early (and with a 4 run lead), leaving Thompson in to face Okajima (even though Phelps is on the team primarily to face lefties). Of course, this loss falls mostly on Rivera, and I understand that. But Torre’s managerial decisions have been untouchable and unquestionable for far too long now. Someone – you maybe? – needs to start holding him accountable for his job performance, just like the rest of us are held accountable for ours.
Go Yankees.
I am completely disgusted right now I want to throw up. Torre mismanaged this game so bad. Pettitte should finish the 7th and no Myers, for crying out loud. Proctor should have handled the 8th and if Mo was looking like trouble in the 9th, then you bring in Bruney. Mo looked like garbage.
How many really want Joe Torre return next year as manager, irrespective of what happends this season?
How many times will Joe take Giambi out of a game for a pinchrunner that then goes into extra innings before he learns not to? How many times will he be burned? If Giambi is so GD good that the team needs to carry 2 extra defensive first basemen to cover for him and allow him just to DH, then how in God’s name can you take him out of any game at any time for a pinchrunner?
I forgot to mention the Kevin Thompson for Giambi pinch running move! What was that?? That was the second time he has done that this season and tonight it really bit us in the ass.
Yes, its only April. But, that’s the 4th time in 15 games, they have blown a 3+ run lead and the second one in a week.
Sunday in Oakland? That’s baseball. Tonight? All on Joe Torre.
Really folks, read the threads in this section. This is managing 101 we are talking about.
Four run lead and Proctor is throwing well. YOU DON’T PUT MYERS IN TO PITCH TO ORTIZ IN THAT SITUATION. You save him for Drew, if there is trouble.
Its just dumb managing and he topped it off by leaving Phelps in the on deck circle rather than hitting for Thompson since he took Jason Giambi out of the game at Fenway, thinking a 4 run lead is enough.
Has Joe never managed at Fenway before?
Look, he may be a great guy but he is a HORRIBLE game manager. This was one night that showed it all. A killer loss and now we have a shot bullpen by April 20 (because he has no idea how to use it) and three rookies starting the next 3 games.
Geez, its so frustrating. A decent game manager away from this team being really, really good.
They should have fired him last year and they would have been better off. Now, we are stuck with him for the season. Not appealing at all.
147 more games before he goes and ARod opts out. What a bummer.
At least do your homework….
David Ortiz vs. Mike Myers, 2006 Regular Season
Player VENUE
D. Ortiz @ Fenway Park
G – 6 AB – 6 R – 1 H – 0 HR – 1
OBP .167 SLG .667 AVG .167
D. Ortiz @ Yankee Stadium
G – 4 AB – 3 0 H – 1
OBP .500 SLG .333 AVG .333
Everyone one knows that Torre cant manage. So why wouldn’t Rivera say to Torre I need to actually pitch so I can get my location down. Put me in the game even if it is a blow out and we are winning by 10 runs. He needs to pitch!!!! Why hasnt he gotten out there on the mound in 5 days!!!
I hope the press rips Torre a new one in the postgame show.
Joe did his usual bang up job, but the loss is on Mo. He’ll bounce back, always does.
Do we all agree that Vizci-oh-no is no longer the 8th inning guy? Pecking order should be Mo, Proctor, Farnsworth, Bruney, Viz, with Britton nipping at his heels.
Ugh, that hit should be one, not none @ Fenway.. HTML formatting would have helped there.
I have to echo what a lot of people have said here. Rivera wasn’t sharp because he’s barely pitched in the last two weeks. When he has trouble, it tends to be because of lack of work. I know it’s hard to bring your closer in during a blowout, but the guy needed to stay sharp.
As much as I love Joe I think maybe he’s lost a step, anyway who’s job is it to position the fielders? Not guarding the line was the killer.
Torre really mangled this game…I just don’t think this team has the talent to overcome his poor game management.
Joe’s Bungles:
1) Pinch running for Giambi
2) Not bunting Nieves after you PR for Giambi
3) Not having Mo warmed up in plenty of time (he and Morzello were scrambling to get going).
4) Lifting Proctor to have Myers face on batter.
5) Not pinch hitting for Thomson.
That’s just off the top of my head…this loss is on Torre and those kinds of losses seem to be mounting.
I love how Torre always makes it seem like he did everything right and never messed up. Can never take blame for falling asleep on the team. Do the reporters ever ask him a question about one of his ridiculous moves???!!
Bruney should be the 8th inning guy. I’d add lifting Pettitte to the list of bungles.
bruney and proctor in the 8th, farnsworth and vizcaino in the 7th – torre has it backwards
I’ll give Joe Torre credit. For losing the game. He should have been fired prior to the season. I’ve always backed him, but its time for a major change.
Why do reporters never challenge Joe? For all of Pete’s talk about the NY media is tough, they collectively act like “fan boys” in the presense of Saint Joe.
I’ve tolerated Torre because of his grandpa image, but the team no longer has the talent to overcome his poor game management. I think it might be time for Joe to Go.
I don’t think anyone can dispute that the bullpen played a major role in this loss. If Myers gets Ortiz out, if Vizcaino or Mo do the job, none of us are terribly outraged.
This was a tough loss, and I’m not jumping off the cliff yet. Still, it hurts, and Torre did not put his players in the best position to succeed.
With a tired bullpen, Pettitte could have finished the 7th. I have faith that he’d have limited the damage.
What is the plus side to bringing Myers in to face Ortiz? He gets Ortiz out, and you need to bring in another pitcher to face Manny. That’s a flat out bad call.
Pinch running Thompson only to have him be forced out on what I believe was the first pitch Nieves saw made no sense. Bringing in Vizcaino was asking for trouble after his outing yesterday. Farnsworth, would have been a better option there since he at least looked good yesterday.
One more bungle…not guarding the line in the 9th. Crisp’s 2B would have been an easy out.
Also lets not forget it is always nice to tack on a run when you can or get the chance. The 8th inning 1st and 3rd, and 1 out and garbage Synder on the mound and Melky has another one of his pathetic at bats. He has absolutely no confidence and looks totally over matched. Then bases loaded and Damon does nothing. At that time people might of thought the at bat meant nothing obviously we see it wasnt because it would of kept the game tied.
Pete is right. If you aren’t going to use Farnsworth in a game like tonight, then he can’t be on the roster.
Vizcaino threw 30 pitches last night. No way he should have been in the game.
I don’t care what Myers numbers are against Ortiz, its the game situation you manage.
Ortiz can’t hit a grand slam to tie the game as the leadoff batter.
If you aren’t going to use Farnsworth, which is clear Joe wasn’t, then Proctor has to pitch to Ortiz and Manny, then you go batter to batter. If there is trouble, you have Myers ready to pitch to Drew.
THAT’S how you manage the 8th tonight. Instead, he did every since thing wrong you can do as a manager in that inning. Starting from lifting Giambi for a pinch runner and not having Nieves, who is 0-for his major league career, bunt the runner over.
If he isn’t going to bunt, then Giambi stays in the game.
Having Mo pitch the 8th after not pitching all week? ANOTHER dumb move.
He tops it off by having the tying run on base and having Thompson, instead of Phelps, bat in the 9th.
You can suck up to him all you want but, tonight was Managing The Game 101 and Joe flunked in every way.
Its not a “troll” statement. Its a statement of fact. Managers only affect about 6-8 games a year and Joe affected this one BIGTIME.
pete: help us! we’re rudderless down here!!
why would torre make all these moves?? they don’t add up [intelligently] and seem to have been risks that did not remotely match the reward.
i mean, from the standpoint of what he also did to vizcaino’s AND mariano’s confidence is mind boggling. That, AND pettite could’ve finished out the inning – with a 4 run lead, clearly he could have – let alone go one more…
question: does mattingly factor into this at all, as an inexperienced bench coach??
again, i know we’re talking about april, it’s over blown, etc. but, the above questions merit some answers…
bottom line: they should not have lost that game.
SJ44
I find myself completely agreeing with you tonight. But some of the blame has to go to Cashman for the pathetic bench he put together. Yes, I realize there are injuries, but having a bat like Bernie’s on the bench, a back up catcher who can bat better than .200, etc would be nice.
Joe really didn’t have many optios off the bench other than Phelps. But the bullpen managing, you have nailed completely right.
Torre should’ve been fired at the end of last season. I don’t care how good a ‘manager of people’ he is. This act is tired. When Andy gives you 6IP+ of 2ER ball, you win the game.
Great job of taking one of our best hitters out of the game AGAIN.
As much as Pete and everyone has tried to brush off the importance of this series, Joe’s horrendous managing has pretty much guaranteed a sweep and 4-game deficit. This is a devestating loss and one that will carry over for a while. I wonder what the old Steinbrenner would have done after a game like this? It might be time for Joe to GO.
a few positives in this game:
1) A-Rod
2) Pettitte
3) A-Rod
4) losing in the 8th and not the bottom of the 9th
5) A-Rod
I thought Ortiz hit a HR off Myers in Fenway last year. Maybe it was at the Stadium.
bernie and pratt should have been on this team, not kevin thompson and wil nieves
I guess I need perspective – I had wanted to extend Mo before this past week – it is time to take a break – but with Mo the Ed Murrow line applies now “Good night and good luck”
Mo will be fine. He wasn’t hit hard. Torre is another matter.
aside from joe’s awful managing mariano is pitching awful this loss just like the oakland one is on him. hes always terrible in April someone needs to get him into shape quicker in the offseason or something
“No, he hasn’t, which just makes him even more useless. I can’t recall ONE TIME that he has come in and done the job that we signed him to do. He was the “Ortiz Killerâ€? but every gosh darn time he comes in against Ortiz, Ortiz hits him.”
just b/c you can’t recall it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
myers got ortiz out 9 out of 11 times last season.
wow, i think i am the biggest critic of torre’s bullpen management on this site, but tonight is on Mo.
he got rocked.
torre’s decisions were sub-optimal (as usual), but the bottom line is that Mo had a 3 run lead and got rocked by a bunch of crappy hitters. again.
it’s easier to blame torre than face the truth.
Rivera in the post game said that he has no idea why he threw batting practice. He hasnt pitched in days!! It doesnt take a genius to figure it out. You would think he would know that. You cant work on your location in the bullpen. Pettitte must think he is still with the Astros with Lidge pitching the 9th inning.
Forget Bernie. They don’t need another 37 year old guy.
That’s the problem. EVERYBODY wants to live in the past.
They didn’t lose tonight because of no Bernie Williams.
Geez, Josh Phelps started the rally yesterday with a HR. You have a soft tossing lefty pitching. Pinch hit Phelps for Thompson for God’s sake.
They lost because, once again, Joe can’t manage in game situations and the bullpen.
You can’t put Mariano in the game in the 8th when you said all year you aren’t going to do it. Plus, he hasn’t pitched all week.
You can’t manage like he did in the 8th and win games. You just can’t.
He’s great guy, an awful game manager, and he has an inexperienced bench coach. In games that aren’t blowouts, when he can’t just put it on cruise control, its a recipe for disaster.
As Pete correctly pointed out, if you aren’t going to use Farnsworth in a game like this, then he can’t be on the team. Using a guy who threw 30 pitches yesterday, and spit the bit, again tonight was flat out dumb.
Its one of those games where an average game manager wins the game. A below average one like Torre, the game is ripe for the taking and the Red Sox took it tonight.
Horrible job and now we have 3 rookies in a row pitching the next 3 games, with a shot bullpen and a closer with an ERA over 8. Better hope we score 30-35 runs, or its 3 losses.
Very, very frustrating game to lose when the manager completely falls asleep, as Torre did, tonight.
“just b/c you can’t recall it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
myers got ortiz out 9 out of 11 times last season.”
Ortiz also posted a .858 OPS against Myers last year, something that SHOULDN’T happen when your sole purpose is the get this guy out.
In a big situation, Myers has NEVER gotten Ortiz out. Look at that homerun last year that won the game for the Red Sox.
I like how ESPN has already played the “A Rod comes up short in the ninth” angle after he almost won the game singlehandedly. If the bullpen hadn’t crapped the bed, they’d be kissing his rear end. Idiots.
Karl Ravech needs to have his toupee stuffed down his throat.
hmmm
Certainly Mo blew it and deserves the bulk of the blame. Sometimes your best get beaten. But Joe did NOT put his players in the best position to win and deserves to get called on the carpet for it.
Joe’s almsot panic moves don’t give me confidence in him for big games later in the season.
“In a big situation, Myers has NEVER gotten Ortiz out. Look at that homerun last year that won the game for the Red Sox.”
he got him out NINE times last year.
Ortiz vs. Myers:
2-11, .182/.250/.455
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....yerId=3147
I think it’s safe to say that Farnsy is now completely in Joe’s doghouse.
and we all know what happens when you go there.
you don’t come out, until you pull on another ballcap.
Bruney pitched Wednesday and yesterday… so Joe wouldn’t use him. Don’t know why you didn’t keep Proctor in; he doesn’t have a whole lot of innings. Neither does Mo… but Joe said he wasn’t going to bring him in for two innings. Obviously, we didn’t get the condition at the end, “unless I absolutely need to.”
not worried about Mo. He’ll be fine. It’s April. That’s my excuse.
still don’t understand running Thompson for Giambi with a four-run lead in the top of the eighth. Just don’t get the rationale there. Insurance run? Four’s not enough at that point? And, if you think you need the insurance run… then don’t you think, “maybe I should leave in my slugger in CASE we don’t get him from first in to score and they DO end up coming back.” That one was a boo-boo.
I can understand letting Thompson play out the last at-bat. He gets a single, and you try and let someone with some more at-bats – Phelps – try and bring in the tie. Plus you have recognized speed running behind him. So I don’t mind that, either.
this one hurts, but it’s only a game. We get the next two, and we’re good.
alsdkjfa;ls.
hate losing this game, though.
I think bruney or farnsworth should have been in for viscaino who has been worked way to much this month. Or even let proctor pitch again. regarding MO for the last few years he always gets off to a slow start I think he blew the first few saves of the season last year or the year before. He get it going by the end of april.
Has torre lost his magic, or alternatively, I’m actually starting to wonder if maybe it was just Zimmer and Randolph calling the shots all those years as bench coach….all I know is Torre was once regarded as a great in game manager and the last few year has proven himself otherwise. First time I noticed it was when he brought in Jeff Weaver in extra innings in game 4 in 2003. Since then, things have not gone torre’s way to say the least.
“They lost because, once again, Joe can’t manage in game situations and the bullpen.
You can’t put Mariano in the game in the 8th when you said all year you aren’t going to do it. Plus, he hasn’t pitched all week.”
again, i feel like i am in bizarro world defending torre’s bullpen management b/c he is generally horrible at it, but you can’t blame torre when you lose with your best pitcher.
they didn’t lose in the 9th b/c Mo pitched in the 8th. mo blew the game in the 8th.
bringing in mo in that situation was absolutely the right thing to do. mo got rocked.
it happens.
i just hope it STOPS happening.
this team is surprisingly resilient. i felt like the season was over last sunday, but they bounced back and swept a tough cleveland team.
it feels like they are going to get swept now, but who knows?
man, i am so pissed off right now though.
Dunno who should have been pitching, but I must agree with David above. The only solid contact on Mo was Varitek; two seeing eye choppers and a bloop that’s only a hit with the infield in (broken bat?) won it.
I’ll be at Fenway tomorrow to see Beckett get torched
“all I know is Torre was once regarded as a great in game manager and the last few year has proven himself otherwise.”
he has never been a great in game manager. it just got overlooked when the team kept winning.
the first sign was when he sent pettitte to bat in the 8th inning of the 1996 WS with the score 1-0.
Joe’s in game managing has been exposed ever since Zim left.
Now, it just stands out more because the Red Sox don’t roll over against the Yankees like they used to.
Frustrating but, we will see more of it until they change manager’s.
We just have to hope this team slugs its way through the season because, if the games are close, they will find ways to lose, or Joe will just manage them to losses. Worst in game manager of a good team I have ever seen in my life. No wonder why ARod can’t stand him. He sees right through the facade.
15 games in, and already 4 games lost with leads of 3+ runs. They have given up 17 hits and 11 walks to guys hitting under .200. That’s a joke. He’s already blown out the bullpen and every starter not named Andy Pettitte averages 4 innings of work.
Find a new manager ARod likes and do everything you can to keep him. No ARod, and folks will REALLY find out what’s its like to be in rebuilding mode.
If its between ARod and Torre, you pick ARod 100% of the time.
Joe’s hook is too quick with the starters. He’s going to blow out the bullpen. Seriously Joe, let the starters pitch 7-8 innings if they are pitching well. They wont die, I promise. It will save guys like Proctor, Vizcaino, and even Rivera from pitching way too much (of course Rivera has barely pitched this year, but he will be worked a lot in time)
Promote Mattingly to manager immediately
Send Minky and Phelps to AAA and bring up Phillips OR have Giambi use that glove that he is pretty decent with. He isnt poor defensively, he’s just not superb
Get Bernie to sign on.
And for christ sake, dont let a player like Ruben Sierra go to another team when he was so valuable as a pinch hitter.
Get rid of Myers, as well. He doesnt give us innings. He’s such a waste of a bullpen spot. Beam would be better off in that spot. Or heck, let Phil Hughes play around in the bullpen a bit. Groom Sanchez as a closer. Do something.
I guess we all forget sometimes how great our team really is. Mariano is in a tough groove right now but if Joe would just let him pitch, all would be well. That stupid “one inning only, when we need him” bullsh*t is really aggravating. Once Mussina and Pavano are back (both capable of winning any game they start) and Wang takes the hill, we’ll be more than set with pitching and when Matsui re-inserts himself into the lineup, our offense will have a boost.
Patience is a virtue
“And for christ sake, dont let a player like Ruben Sierra go to another team when he was so valuable as a pinch hitter.”
holy crap, thanks adam. i was so mad, i needed a good laugh.
hey – any time.
we need sal fasano back, too. (ha)
“Groom Sanchez as a closer.”
You know he’s out for the rest of this year, if not most of next, right?
mariano sure looks cooked to me
“Find a new manager ARod likes and do everything you can to keep him. No ARod, and folks will REALLY find out what’s its like to be in rebuilding mode.
If its between ARod and Torre, you pick ARod 100% of the time.”
it’s funny how quick people can change their tune. here is what pete said after the playoffs last year:
“There are reports that Torre will get fired on Monday and replaced by Lou Piniella. If true, it means the following: The Yankees become A-Rod’s team, not Jeter’s. Piniella is an A-Rod guy and if he is the new manager, A-Rod won’t be going anywhere. Jeter, Posada, Bernie and Mariano would be furious…. If the Yankees choose A-Rod over Torre, which is what this would be, it’s style over substance.”
“The Sunday notes column this week leads off with a look at what teams would be (are?) interested in Alex Rodriguez. It seems to me that A-Rod’s relationship with the team is beyond repair at this point and he needs to get traded. ”
“…Congratulations, Torre haters. But this could be one of those deals where you should be careful what you wish for. A-Rod will stay because Piniella will convince the Yankees he knows how to get the best out of him. Now, instead of just being the guy who can’t get it done in a big spot, A-Rod will become the guy who can’t get it done in a big spot and helped drive kindly Joe Torre out of town. Let’s see him survive that if the Yankees don’t win the Series next season.”
“mariano sure looks cooked to me”
no way.
he was absolutely filthy in spring training.
he’s struggling with his control.
he’ll be fine.
and another thing..fire joe torre
pinch running Kt for giambi is inexcusable
To be honest, i hadnt honestly kept up with Sanchez’s injury. All I remember hearing was that he was injured early in spring training and heard nothing since.
Regardless, though, we have a wealth of pitching in our minor league system to allow a roster spot to waste away with Mike Myers
“If Kyle Farnsworth can’t be trusted with a four-run lead in the eighth inning, what’s the point in having him?”
…and Bruney, Vizcaino, and Proctor.
Taking Pettitte out was a huge mistake as well. He was the best option we had in that situation. He could have finished things off in the 7th and Proctor could have come in fresh in the 8th, or Proctor/Viz/Brun/Farns followed by Mo.
Dismal.
“pinch running Kt for giambi is inexcusable”
this one i agree whole-heartedly with.
the most annoying thing is that he never learns this one. he keeps doing it over and over.
it’s a terrible tactical decision.
We will destroy them tomorrow
and besides…
Schilling got absolutely embarrassed/upstaged/abused/etc. by A-Rod.
“pinch running Kt for giambi is inexcusable�
It totally was especially because of who was on deck…Nieves!!! Who obviously hasnt shown yet that he can touch major league pitching. Also swinging at the first pitch he saw not even giving himself a chance. He takes Giambi out in these weird situations almost like you would think he has an injury or something. Makes absolutely no sense. As he did in the Oakland game and tonight shows even when they are up by 4 runs there is no reason to expect that the game is over.
This really sux. I have no idea why Mo pitches five or six innings in spring training last yr – gets rocked in april. Then, pitches only five innings this yr in spring and once again, comes out of the gate like Brad Lidge on a bad day. Just awful eighth innings.
I was waiting and waiting this off season for the HUGE change every one kept promising and it never came. The team looks almost too similar to the way it did last yr. Maybe the BIG change should have been Torre removing his stripes. What was he doing out there?
Mike and the maddog were talking to Torre earlier today and asked if Pettitte pitched thru the seventh who he would bring up in the eighth? And he said Vizcaino. I swear Mike had the most shocked look on his face. I too was thinking what? Didnt he almost blow the game for us yesterday? Give him a rest for god sake. Isnt proctor on full rest and pitching decently well minus one game? It should have been Pettitte for seven, Proctor in the eighth and Bruney (or Mo if in a save situation) in the ninth. If Joe followed that game plan, I dont think Mo would have stepped onto the field. They say its easy being a monday morning quarterback but keep in mind, I had all of these thoughts in my head about two to three hours prior to the game. A five yr old could manage the yanks better than Joe did tonight.
>>Has torre lost his magic, or alternatively, I’m actually starting to wonder if maybe it was just Zimmer and Randolph calling the shots all those years as bench coach….
sorry about the double post – technical difficulties
>>Has torre lost his magic, or alternatively, I’m actually starting to wonder if maybe it was just Zimmer and Randolph calling the shots all those years as bench coach….
umm why is everyone so mad at myers? He pitched over 7 innings of 2 hits 0 run ball and then, he gives up a hit to DO and all of a sudden he is public enemy number one. I agree myers shouldnt have been brought in in that situation but it certainly isnt myers fault and he is still having a fantastic season so far. Give the guy a break. Thats like saying if arod doesnt hit a homer tomorrow he should be traded.
Sanchez is out for a yr and a half at the minimum – he is not coming to help relieve mariano.
Joe is usually good about taking starters out when they look shakey but tonight was not one of those times. And its fine to do that with karstens, rasner or wright but we are talking about pettitte here. I think he knew how to get thru that seventh with minimum damage.
Bernie is not coming back – can everyone just stop asking.
Vizcaino is durable but he is not a godsend – Torre needs to take Luis off his lap and let someone else have a turn. I hate when he becomes obsessed with a reliever. Meanwhile Farnsy who is getting payed more than most closers in the league is nowhere to be found. Just trade him already to an NL team and pay half his salary – I bet we would get something quality in return for that arm despite his NY inconsistency.
“this team is surprisingly resilient. i felt like the season was over last sunday, but they bounced back and swept a tough cleveland team.”
you felt this season was over last sunday?! look at the calendar, it’s APRIL. This isn’t the NFL. There’s another 146 to go. it’s early…
“There’s no one pitch that I would like to bring back, not at all,� Rivera said. “Varitek hit a good pitch. Crisp hit a good pitch, too, a ground ball that just found the hole. And the other guy, Cora, hit another one. Just find the holes.�
Is Mo kidding me?!! Besides his first 2 pitches to Varitek all of his other pitches were right down the middle and had absolutely no movement. I dont know why Minky wasnt guarding the line Coco Crisipies hit down the line should of been a DP.
Were you guys calling for Joe’s head as the Yankees were killing the Indians with 3 rookie pitchers this past week?
When you are winning by 4 runs in the 8th inning of a ballgame, and your closer can’t finish the other team off, it’s not the manager’s fault. They beat our best. You can question Joe’s tactics with Giambi and Proctor/Myers, but the bottom line is that Boston beat Mariano Rivera. With the game on the line, he is the guy you want in the game, and so Torre put him in the game. Who else would you rather have in there? Farnsworth? I don’t think so.
Rivera didn’t come through this time. 90+ times out of 100 Mo saves that game, and nobody is calling for Joe’s head. It happens. Calm down, it’s game 15 of the season.
I love how Peter turns this into a Farnsworth bashing post and ignores the fact that Joe Torre completely blew this game.
Bottom line here folks, Joe cannot manage a bullpen.
First, Vizcaino shouid never have been put in. The guy threw 30+ pitches the day before in the game against Cleveland. This is not the WS, give the guy a rest.
Second, you have long relievers in the pen, use them.
third, we are 15 games into the season and the bull pen looks tired. This is no longer acceptable.
Mo should not pitch save situations anymore. Torre should be removed from the game after the starting pitcher is ready to come out.
I think this was just bad luck people. Relax. We’ll find a way. If Joe had made all the moves you guys are asking for and lost the game, you’d be crying about why he did that and not exactly as he ended up doing. Especially with Mo in the 8th. EVERYONE would be whining that we should have had Mo out there if Bruney or Farns or Henn had been brought in and blew the game. This kind of stuff happens. It’s still disheartening and disappointing when you think you have a game in the bag, but it happens and luckily we still have a whole season to erase this loss.
In April of 2005, Mariano blew back to back saves against the Red Sox at Yankee Stadium. Remember how that prompted some people around the league to question whether Rivera was a dominant pitcher anymore? Remember how Rivera was subsequently cheered by Red Sox fans during their Home Opener pre-game introductions at Fenway Park the following week?
How did all that turn out?
With a career best 1.38 ERA, 31 consecutive Saves, a 0.87 WHIP, a K per 9 IP of 9.19, an All Star appearance, another division title, and a second place finish in CY Young voting. I need not say anymore, except the fact that I blame it soley on rust. Nothing more, nothing less.