Good morning from Fenway Park
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Apr 21, 2007 
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Here we are at Fenway Park, where it’s a beautiful day. Finally.
Just got finished flipping through the comments. If Mariano Rivera had done his job against the bottom of the lineup, everybody would be saying that Joe Torre was a genius.
But the greatest closer there ever was failed. That is Joe’s fault how exactly? If Mariano can’t get Coco Crisp and Alex Cora then it doesn’t matter if Miller Huggins is sitting in the dugout.
Mike Myers has been nearly perfect this season, of course you use him against David Ortiz. He owned Ortiz at the end of last season.
Once Ortiz is on, you have to bring in a right-hander. Vizcaino has been very good this season and is conditioned for 70+ appearances a season. Back-to-back days aren’t a big deal, especially a night game after a day game.
Viczaino failed. Personally, I’d rather see him in the game instead of Kyle Farnsworth, who can’t go back-to-back days for whatever reason. Brian Bruney has been great this season but was a game at Fenway Park the time to introduce him to 8th inning pressure situations?
Then I see where people wanted Pettitte to go over his 100 pitches. He had a bad back and missed the last two weeks of spring training. It was April 20. You can’t run your only healthy and reliable starter out there for 120+ pitches.
They lost a game they should have won and as the manager Joe bears the responsibility. It’s just funny that he never gets any credit for the 96 wins every year but all the blame for the 66 losses.
Mark my words, you will miss him when he’s gone.
Lineup guess…Cabrera CF,Jeter SS,Abreu RF,Rodriguez 3B ,Giambi DH,Phelps 1B,Cano 2B,Thompson LF,Nieves C.Phelps in for Minky based on Damon and Posada out….need for more offense.
quantrill had the same durability rep when he came over from the dodgers. how long did that last?
bullpen problems are a function of injuries/short outings from the starters. this will pass.
my feeling is we get our asses whipped this weekend and return the favor next weekend. last night was the game we needed to win and that’s why joe managed it as though it were a playoff contest. he knows karstens and wright are up against beckett and dice-k the next two games. he wanted that game last night. we all wanted it. but it didn’t happen and in september, we’ll hardly remember this series ever took place.
by the way, mo is the best closer of the one-inning closer era. rollie fingers was the best closer from the old school days when guys came out of the pen from the fifth inning on. i think that distinction has to be made, in deference to rollie and goose and sparky and others.
Perfectly written, Peter. Thank you for being the voice of reason.
Pete,
I was wondering how many times you have heard how good A-rod would look like in Red Sox uniform next year?….The Boston Media loves to dream. It was a hard lost no matter how anyone wants to put it, but in the end it will probably just be one of 66-68.
My God, what is with reporters like Pete shilling for Clueless Joe? And the only people who will miss him are those brown-nosed reporters.
And Pete should really do some research into Vizcaino. There was a reason Milwaukee dumped the guy. At the time, they had an awful bullpen, and he was even too rotten for them to keep.
Peter answer me this, you don’t blame Torre for pinch running for Giambi up by 4 runs?
It is pretty clear the media in New York gives Torre a free pass (yourself included) because he stays and answers all of your questions and you guys don’t bash him because he makes your job much easier than it might be if someone else wasn’t managing.
Pete, I couldn’t agree with you more.
I don’t agree with everything Torre does, but he’s a better manager than people give him credit for and won’t appreciate what he’s done for this team until he’s gone and the next guy screws up.
The way I see it, last night’s loss was payback for the improbable win on Thursday.
People just make a bigger deal out of this loss because it came against the Red Sox.
And, btw, the posters who said it would be a sweep this weekend were right on the money.
As far as next weekend goes, Boston will take 2 out of 3.
“Peter answer me this, you don’t blame Torre for pinch running for Giambi up by 4 runs?
It is pretty clear the media in New York gives Torre a free pass (yourself included) because he stays and answers all of your questions and you guys don’t bash him because he makes your job much easier than it might be if someone else wasn’t managing.”
When was the last time the pinch runner for Giambi stole a base or was bunted over to utilize his speed? But Clueless Joe has his pattern and he will not deviate from hit.
I think after this brutal series concludes with Dice-K dominating (and that goof Wright getting bombed) that maybe some fans will realize that this team and manager aren’t that good.
Disagree Pete. I use Proctor to start the 8th. Why use Myers against Ortiz when Ortiz is LEADING OFF AN INNING and you have a four-run lead? With Manny up next, Ortiz is Myers’ only batter.
You are burning Myers for ONE batter with a FOUR run lead. Sorry, I’m not buying that.
I also don’t buy the quick hook of Rasner on Thursday. You know you are optioning Rasner no matter what he does, so you can afford to burn him on Thursday and hopefully save the bullpen. Instead, Torre quick hooks him after 4 1/3 and uses the bullpen. Let Rasner gut it out and save the ‘pen for the Boston series, esp. when you have Karstens and Wright going back to back on Sat. and Sunday.
After 2000, Torre became Teflon Joe. I love the guy, but will criticize him when necessary, and the last two games do deserve criticism.
joe’s greatest asset is maintaining calm during a crisis. his demeanor carries over to the team, which is why it has continually overcome slow starts in recent years to win the AL East title, even in years when they weren’t clearly the best team (2003-05 come to mind).
that kind of patience is sorely lacking among baseball fans all over the planet. joe is back at the park right now, acting calm, mapping out his plans for the day. and we fans are sitting around, pissing and moaning.
managing a team isn’t all about strategy. ask lou piniella over in chicago. his owners spent $300M on player contracts in the offseason and the team is already well below .500.
joe has patience. piniella blows up in a crisis and blames someone else, either the owners (tampa bay) or the players (cincy). whom do you prefer?
I dunno Pete, what does Torre actually do anymore?
I know in ’96 – ’00 he always had the perfect pinch-hitter or the perfectly timed situational play…but right now he’s not really doing anything special. I don’t blame him for bringing in Mo, I blame him for overmanaging a 4-run lead. Proctor had 6 pitches under his belt and was pitching well. Barring that, Vizcaino had pitched 30-something pitches the night before, not to mention he blew the lead. Brian Bruney has truly been the fireman this season so far, and he should be rewarded for that. The first mistake was taking out Proctor. The second mistake was not using Bruney once it got to be a hold situation.
Torre has not managed a win this season, but he’s managed two losses. Thank goodness for A-Rod, or we’d be in last place with the Rays.
Peter – I happen to agree with you.
If the pitchers (except for Andy and Proctor, they were fine) had done their jobs, we’re not having this discussion. Unfortunately, they didn’t. Mo didn’t have his control, maybe due to inactivity.
Sometimes decisions don’t work out because of failed execution, rather than failed strategy.
Calling a rookie pitcher making his second start a goof–nice.
I couldn’t agree more Pete. There is no way Joe could have predicted the way things worked out. 6-2 game going into the 8th inning you would like to think no matter who we throw out there it will work out. It didn’t and we lost the game. That is definitely the exception and not the rule.
We are further screwed with Posada out. Nieves, Mientkiewicz, Melky Cabrera stink and Jeff Karstens and Chase Wright are our #3 and 4 starters. LOL.
We are done done DONE.
Please guys, don’t expect anything out of Vizcaino. I can’t warn you strongly enough.
And that RJ trade looks even worse now.
tombo: this isn’t the exception anymore. How many more times are we going to get screwed like this? It is definitely becoming the rule.
Anyone notice how after a huge comeback win, we always have the same heartbreaking lose within just a few days?
Marcus,
Just ignore the Boston fan.
pinch running for giambi there is inexcusable
Pete I do have to fault Torre for pinch running for Giambi when we are up 6-2. Every time he has done this we have been burned this year.
They are goofs. Rasner, Karstens, Wright, DeSalvo, etc. What do you think will happen today? Do you honestly believe there is any chance in heck that Karstens surprises us and wins the game? No friggin chance.
Cashman forgot how to do his job. Brilliant idea to hinge our 4 spot and on CARL PAVANO and our rotation on Kei Igawa. You all think Mussina is gonna come back and save us? He looked like washed up garbage before he got hurt too–probably why he got “hurt”. Aside from Andy Pettitte, we have no starting pitcher we can trust and no one that could strikeout anyone or find the strike zone if their life relied on it. Bruney=this years Proctor. All we do is replace Proctors overused role, never immunize our bullpen from hacks like Farnsworth and Vizcaino.
Mike S: You have a 12-man pitching staff specifically so Mike Myers can face one batter. C’mon man.
Milwaukee got rid of Vizcaino. Right. Then he pitched well for the WS champions in 2005 and again for Arizona last year.
Meanwhile, you can’t just leave relievers in and burn them out with two rookie starters going the next two games. You have to manage for every game, not one. Mo had not pitched in four days.
I do sort of agree on the Giambi pinch running thing. But given how easily he gets leg injuries, I think you have to pick your spots getting him off the bases.
Anyway, enough of complaining about last night. Let’s focus on today.
Thats fine Peter, as long as you don’t defend the Giambi move I can live with you defending his bullpen moves, since quite frankly they have all been overworked, but not cause of Torre.
what were the roster moves today?
Pete, I respectfully disagree with you. I think you are looking at this through the eyes of a journalist and not a paying customer.
Sure, Mo is getting older and he’s not the same pitcher he was a few years ago but Torre, as the manager, has to make better decisions than he did last night.
Mr. Torre was the one who emphatically insisted he was not going to use Mariano in the 8th inning this season. Sure, injuries happen and things change but the fans have a right to question some of his in game management skills. No one would deny that Mr. Torre has been great with the media, good with blending the egos and shielding his players but that doesn’t make him a saint. Sure, he’s not going to flip out like Sweet Lou but that doesn’t mean we should kowtow to every single thing he does.
If the media wants to give him credit for the victories…that doesn’t make him immune to some of the blame for the losses too. Whether it’s in Detroit in October or Boston in April…there are holes in his game. It also doesn’t mean we are calling for his head on a platter either.
I think its clear to all that realistic yankee fan is a boston troll…do you think we dont see that moron? even the most critical yankee fan doesn’t think the yanks have ‘NO CHANCE’ prior to a game, any game.
I predict the yankees will win today, even with karstens on the mound.
Let me preface by saying I LIKE JOE AS OUR MANAGER. However, that doesn’t mean he can’t have a bad night. He was awful last night. IT happens to everybody. And whoevever positions the defense- Maybe Miller Huggins would have had Minky guarding the line (and Crisp would have been out) and then the infield is back for that pathetic Cora bloop. In my mind Mo got those two guys out- we just didn’t have the D in the right spot- who’s fault is that? It isn’t Mariano’s.
“If Mariano can’t get Coco Crisp and Alex Cora then it doesn’t matter if Miller Huggins is sitting in the dugout.”
Sorry, but when the matchup is Beckett against Jeff Karstens, the odds are stacked way against NY. And when you have a Wil Nieves in the lineup (in addition to Minky) it just makes the situation worse. And if Damon is out and Kevin Thompson (blech) is in…forget about this game.
The way I see the 8th inning from last night, Manny and Ortiz were already on base. With those two already on, who am I so afraid of that Mo has to come in for the last two outs of the the 8th? Mo then either has to get 5 outs or is not available for the 9th if the Yanks hold the lead. I know that Joe wanted to kill the momentum, but if whoever is left in the deepest bullpen ever can’t get two outs from somebody not named Manny or Papi, I give up.
Beckett had a 10 ERA last season vs the Yankees, calm down troll, I like Karstens over him myself.
Why is Damon out?? Where does it say that?? God we are so DONE.
Chalk it up to spoiled fans.
Payroll doesn’t equal championship calibar team. Joe might not be the best ingame manager but last night you can’t pin the loss on him. 4 run lead, you bring in Mo who hasn’t pitched since Sunday-you expect a win here.
we will. If it is the Beckett from last year- it will be a slugfest. I like Chase Wright more tomorrow than Karstens- if for no other reason that this is Karstens first start.
What a bunch of nervous nellies.
Guys, there are 162 games in the year. Relax.
Even if we get swept, it happens in baseball.
Blown saves happen.
Losses happen.
Is Boston the favorite to win tonight? Yep.
Do the Yankees have no chance at all? No way. We can totally win today, just like, we can totally win any given day. Just like any team can win on any given day.
People need to chill out. All the crying about how the world is ending is ridiculous.
I recall last season when the Yanks traveled to Toronto and countered Roy Halliday and AJ Burnett with Karstens and Rasner.
The result? The Yanks won both games.
I’d be a Vegas millionaire if determining the outcome of baseball games was as simple as deciding who had the edge in the starting pitching match-up.
Baseball doesn’t work that way or a lot more people would be winning money betting on games.
hey does he keep changing his name, rainbowtrout, hello?offense? and now realisticyankeefan – I’m waiting for shi*forbrains.
Peter, you are once again the voice of reason. Let the people who don’t have Torre’s job second guess his every move and bitch about it. That’s why they write in blogs.
Anyone forget it’s only April ? OK, let’s burn out the whole pitching rotation and the pen while we’re at it for one miserable game in APRIL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It’s time for some people to smell the coffee and wake up.
Vizcaino had thrown 33 pitches in the loss to Cleveland. He had no business being in there.
I love how wanting a championship team and wanting star players who make a lot to money to perform makes us spoiled. I didn’t know the point was to have the worst team in the league!
My God. Peter Abraham is a complete and utter Joe Torre apologist. Obviously the whole press corp is — and this is why his bungling is never discussed.
And with all due respect, a lot of what he wrote was clueless. For example:
“If Mariano Rivera had done his job against the bottom of the lineup, everybody would be saying that Joe Torre was a genius.”
Wrong. No one would call him a genius because he still made mistakes prior to calling in Mo. And managing a four-run lead to a victory never calls for a “genius” label.
“Once Ortiz is on, you have to bring in a right-hander. Vizcaino has been very good this season and is conditioned for 70+ appearances a season. Back-to-back days aren’t a big deal, especially a night game after a day game.”
Is he conditioned to throw every game they’re in? Is he “conditioned” to throw 33 pitches and then come back in the next night? He’s human, he’s made of flesh and bones, and no one comes back from a stressful 33-pitch outing with his best stuff.
“Viczaino failed. Personally, I’d rather see him in the game instead of Kyle Farnsworth, who can’t go back-to-back days for whatever reason. Brian Bruney has been great this season but was a game at Fenway Park the time to introduce him to 8th inning pressure situations?”
Stunning cluelessness. Bruney was a former closer! He’s also pitched in the playoffs for this team (successfully). He knows pressure. Bruney has shown he has nerves of steel — he doesn’t rattle. Pressure isn’t ONLY about what inning you pitch. Bruney has battled, this very year, out of bases-loaded no-out jams. THAT’S pressure. That line about “introducing Bruney to pressure” is the worst attempt at covering up for Torre I’ve ever heard. It’s totally illogical.
“Then I see where people wanted Pettitte to go over his 100 pitches. He had a bad back and missed the last two weeks of spring training. It was April 20. You can’t run your only healthy and reliable starter out there for 120+ pitches.”
He was at 100 pitches exactly. Where does it say that it takes him over twenty pitches to get two outs?
“They lost a game they should have won and as the manager Joe bears the responsibility. It’s just funny that he never gets any credit for the 96 wins every year but all the blame for the 66 losses.”
He gets plenty of credit — too much, from people like you, who are in awe of him and have no objectivity.
“Mark my words, you will miss him when he’s gone.”
We won’t. You trust us. Unlike you, we’ve lived with this guy since ’96. You only know him for two years. If you judged him objectively, and weren’t so charmed by his avuncular chumminess, you’d see he’s a horrible in-game manager.
I agree completely with Peter’s reasoning. And I think we all take Torre for granted a little too much.
As for the Giambi move, I didn’t agree with it either, but it still isn’t why the Yankees lost. Mariano blew the game. That’s why they lost. Sure you have a slightly better chance to get a base hit with Phelps in there over Thomspon, but it is still highly likely that Phelps fails to get the job done as well. That 9th inning is not why the Yankees lost. This one is on Mariano.
Well said Pete.
“Mark my words, you will miss him when he’s gone.”
I really, really won’t.
I do not blame him for Mariano blowing the game, but Torre does not hit, pitch, field, etc., so he’s not going to get credit for most wins and most losses. That’s just the way baseball is.
Where Torre gets credit/criticism is for assigning line-ups/positions and making in game decisions. His bullpen management, throughout his entire career (not just in New York), has been highly suspect. Anyway, I’m not going to list all of Torre’s pros and cons, all I’m going to say is that Torre isn’t the only man in the world that can lead a team of the Yankees’ caliber to 90 wins. I bet even Dusty Baker could get the Yankees to the top of the division.
“Brian Bruney has been great this season but was a game at Fenway Park the time to introduce him to 8th inning pressure situations?”
YES YES YES
Bruney is, for lack of a better word, a badass. From what we’ve all seen since he joined the Yankees, most recently getting out of a bases-loaded, 0 out jam the other night, he has no problem with pressure situations. And, right now, he’s the hottest hand in the bullpen. Plus, he’s a power pitcher. K’s were what was needed in that situation.
It was indefensible for Torre not to put him in instead of Vizcaino the 8th inning last night. Both had pitched the previous day, and Vizcaino, to be generous, sucked.
As for Torre, he consistently makes in-game decisions where his best players are not available (can he please stop pinch-running for Giambi in the 8th?) or not in the game at the highest-leverage moments. And he doesn’t seem to learn from his mistakes either. If you’re going to pin last night’s loss on one person, I agree it definitely has to be Mo, but let’s not forget that Torre once again made a number of decisions that didn’t give his the team the best chance to win a very winnable game.
And for that reason, I think Torre’s time has come and gone in the Bronx.
“Mark my words, you will miss him when he’s gone.”
Amen
Um, I wouldn’t give so much praise for Dusty Baker.
Now, THAT is a guy who knows how to destroy his pitchers and overwork a bullpen. Yikes!
Neither Prior or Wood has ever been the same since 2003 when Dusty rode their arms into the ground and let them consistently throw 120-130 pitches a game that season.
Oh yeah, and the Cubs’ closer that season was a guy named Joe Borowski — who hurt his arm and has been abysmal ever since.
What is up with the rants 3000 paragraphs long.. sheesh. Honestly some of you need to get your OWN blogs if you have so much to say in a comments section.
No, you come on, Pete. There was a four run lead, and Proctor had thrown only six pitches. So you waste Myers when you have a four run lead and then bring in Vizcaino who had thrown 33 pitches the day before. That’s overmanaging.
Point is, if he is going to face ONE batter, you have him face that one batter when it really counts, not when that batter is leading off an inning and you have a four run lead.
“Scott Proctor seems to have his giddy-up back. He hasn’t allowed a run in his last six appearances. His line: 5.2 2 0 0 1 4″
Which is why he should have started the 8th.
Pete, I’ll miss him when he’s gone. As much or more than anyone. As I’ve said before, he’s the best manager the Yankees have had in my lifetime. He brought stability to the franchise, and the latter is in no small part responsible for Cashman’s ability to fully take charge, a result that will benefit the club for years, and after Joe is gone.
He’s still cost the team two games this season. His in-game managing is worse than usual and wholly without imagination. He is a slave to the routines he creates out of hunches and stale habit.
Last night? The mistakes are as follows.
Pinch-running for Giambi. A move that rarely works. Guarantees a bad bat in his spot if needed. And worse? Offers the opposing pitcher a way to work the previous batter. That would be A-Rod.
Letting Kevin Thompson make the last out while Josh Phelps sits in the batter’s box. Phelps hit a ninth inning home run against the opposing team’s closer the NIGHT BEFORE.
Pitching Viz on consecutive nights after he threw 33 pitches and threw several of them badly. This is where Joe’s penchant for rigid routine hurts him and the team. Bruney has pitched far better as of late. He did not work as hard in his last start.
If Proctor has been as hot as you say, surely Joe has noticed. The fact that he pulled him after only six pitches is again evidence of Joe sticking to the routine. Proctor’s my seventh inning guy, Vicaino is my eighth. Stick to the routine even if it hurts the team.
This last one is easy. If you’re willing to pitch Mariano for two innings, despite your previous statements, then bloody well pitch him for two innings. Starting with the first batter in the eighth frame.
And yes, I’ll miss him too.
“If Mariano Rivera had done his job against the bottom of the lineup, everybody would be saying that Joe Torre was a genius.”
And your basis for that conclusion is what? Pure speculation? Had Mariano gotten out of it, I’d have said Mariano saved Joe from looking like a bonehead!
That was a bad move from the get-go for many reasons, but the three main ones are Vizcaino, Farnsworth, and Bruney. Those guys need to be given a chance to hold a 4 run lead in the 8th. I realize it’s Fenway, but it’s April and as you yourself pointed out, it was the bottom of the lineup.
Save Mo for the top of the lineup and the 9th inning. No question, the loss was Mo’s fault and he pitched terribly, but Joe made a mistake and it can’t be ignored. Sure, 99 times out of 100, Mariano’s going to get it done, but when he fails and he shouldn’t have been in to begin with, Joe’s got to take some heat.
Yankees won 96 games, inspite of Torre’s goofs. They would have won more but for clueless Joe’s crazy moves.
Now cashman looks like a fool defending Joe and getting him keep his job. If Joe blows another couple of games like this, he should be fired right away before it is too late for the Yankees to make the post season.
Joe Torre is an amazing manager and should get all the credit he deserves and more. To keep morale, maintain order among egos, deliver a satisfatory product year after year, and always be continuously gracious to everyone yet always being honest and real is a quality that we would always dream for in a CEO or a president. Joe Torre for President. Its pasta tonight.
Did anyone hear last night that ESPN said that Mo was topping out at 88 on the radar gun? If that was indeed the case, has Mo been getting enough work to keep him sharp?
And that RJ trade looks even worse now.
a 12:05 post.
Oh yeah, we’ll just conveniently forget the fact that RJ hasn’t thrown one inning for Arizona so far.
Mark my words, you will miss him when he’s gone.
Like the song goes:
“Don’t it always seem to go, that you don’t know what you got ’till it’s gone”.
You are sooooooooooo right, Pete!
Joe Torre just can not win a championship even when he is provided with the best talent for half a dozen years now. He mis-manages the talent given to him. Enough of this fascination that he manages egos. He did not win with the best talent given, that is the bottom line. Get him out of here.
Do people still remember Billy Martin? He did not give a damn about the egos. He just won even with possibly lesser talent than what Joe is given.
Yeah, we’ll miss him. But it reminds me of the old Dan Hicks and the Hot Licks song: “How Can I Miss You If You Won’t Go Away?”
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