Wrapping it up from Fenway Park
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- April
- 21
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As a sportswriter, there are few things worse then having a nice 700-word story done in the 8th inning than watching the bullpen blow the lead.
I should post my “Yankees win” story, it wasn’t bad. But that would be bad mojo.
What stands out for me after this: Torre always seems to get burned whenever he runs for Giambi. But it’s hard to blame him for pinch running with a four-run lead. … So what’s the deal with Kyle Farnsworth now? … Mariano Rivera swears nothing his wrong with his arm and the gun readings bear that out. … That was easily the biggest hit Coco Crisp has ever had. … You had to think A-Rod was going to clock one off Okajima. Guy made a nice pitch, jamming him with a cutter. He could be a heck of a signing by Boston.
Jorge Posada said he will be out a couple of days. Wil Nieves can catch but there’s no backup outside of Josh Phelps, who last caught in the majors in 2001 and never caught in spring training. Nieves, by the way, is 0 for 21 since his last hit in 2002.
Here are two audio clips I thought were worth you hearing. The first is from Alex Rodriguez:
The second is from Mariano Rivera. If you are a Yankees fan, be proud of this guy. He suffered what had to be a gut-wrenching loss and he stood there and answered every question from a pack of reporters in a noisy concourse outside the clubhouse.
Trust me when I tell you, that’s not easy. Rivera could have easily said “not tonight.” But he stood and faced the music and walked away classy as ever.
Does that translate into success? I’d like to think it does. I do know that whenever anybody asks me who is a good guy on the team, I mention him in the first sentence.
Thanks for reading tonight. We’ll do it again tomorrow.
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on Saturday, April 21st, 2007 at 12:12 am by Peter Abraham.
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Josh Thomson
“Torre always seems to get burned whenever he runs for Giambi. But it’s hard to blame him for pinch running with a four-run lead.”
Can’t blame him? Why not? It was a moronic move. A lead is never safe in Fenway (as we have seen over and over again). Pinch-running for Giambi was just one in a series of abominable moves.
Pete, did anyone grill Joe on the overuse of VizcaÃno? He threw 33 pitches on thursday vs Cleveland. Why did Joe drag him out again tonight? He has now appeared in 10 of 15 games.
Very poor job by Torre tonight with the bullpen, pinch running and letting Thompson hit in the 9th.
I don’t know about you guys, but I can hear Schilling punching some doors all the way from here; because if you think Schilling is happy with the win after giving up those 2 bombs to A-Rod, then you gotta look back to the bloody “everybody look at me I’m the hero” sock moment.
I highly doubt Schilling is gonna lose much sleep……..He is a professional player and his team won the game, nobody 1 month from now will remember he got rocked by Alex tonight. when you look at the box score unfortunately we will always see Rivera taking the loss.
Lets hope our boys come back strong and give it to Josh
why no farnsworth tonight?/ I hate him also but why is he on the roster if he does not pitch the 8th with a lead. or start proctor in the 8th and see how he dows??
I give Vizciano a few more outings and if he does not turn it around he moves down the pecking order a ton…
Pinch running was a bad idea. The Yankees had a four run lead with Giambi on first and no outs, facing a questionable-at-best Boston bullpen. What was the game plan – small-ball it all the way to five? Have Thompson score on a deep hit so he doesn’t get stranded on third base by three consecutive batters? Throw a completely unnecessary steal attempt into the mix?
I just can’t see any logic in that move.
Okajima was a former teammate of Matsui’s with Yomiuri Giants. He became a closer a few years before Matsui left Yomiuri Giants. They won the Japan Series Title once. Okajima won another championship last year with Nippon Ham Fighters managed by Trey Hillman. I doubt he could be a closer for any MLB team, still he’d be a very good 7th, 8th inning guy, and I was hoping Yanks would go after this guy. His fastball velocity isn’t that effective, but his curb ball is nasty. His deceptive pitching motion is certainly a big part of his success in the Japanese league. I read in Japanese newspapers that the use of MLB ball makes his chang-up more effective, so he started using it more often.
Mo is my favorite player in baseball, not only for the tremendous job he’s done for the team, but because always carries himself with such dignity. Unfortunately, this makes the few times he doesn’t do the job quite heartbreaking.
Thanks for the great coverage Pete…I would have loved to have read that “Yankees Win” story but it will have to wait for another night. Mo will find his groove, he always does.
somebody please convince me that rivera’s okay. because an 8.44 ERA in seven outings isn’t really doing the trick right now. so just convince me he’s fine, his elbow’s not a problem, and he’ll be fine.
the loss sucked, but the bigger problem is mariano right now.
it’s going to be awfully tough to avoid a sweep now. they better jump on beckett early tomorrow and score 14 runs.
man. and i thought the oakland loss was a heartbreaker. what a drag.
I love the “Yankees suck” chant showing up in the 8th inning. Classic.You would have thought we were hearing Gilletel Stadium. Wow, I wish the Yankees didn’t suck.
Why Rivera in the EIGHTH , OOps I broke my own rule Torre. This one stung a little but we dominated most of the game so I’m not jumping off any bridges . Great game ,can’t wait till tonight .
by the way, pete:
“If you’re Roger Clemens watching this game from your couch in Texas, how do you not sign with the Yankees?”
here’s how: if you’re roger clemens, you’d probably like to pitch behind that offense, but guess what? you’d also like to feel safe handing a FOUR RUN LEAD to your bullpen in the 8th inning. since the yankees have now frittered away three-plus run leads four (or is it five?) times over the course of fifteen games, you don’t really feel terribly comfortable in that situation. THAT’S how you don’t sign with the yankees.
when mariano rivera blows a two-run lead to jason kendall and marco scutaro, and then follows that up by getting raked by jason varitek and coco crisp, you start to wonder how safe your leads are.
when joe torre won’t trust kyle farnsworth with a four-run lead, you figure you probably shouldn’t, either.
when vizcaino proves that he’s not much more trustworthy than farnsworth, you start to worry a bit more.
when you realize that proctor and bruney can’t throw every day, your worries mount a bit.
THAT’S how you don’t sign with the yankees.
Mariano isn’t the biggest problem. Joe Torre is the biggest problem.
Mariano is rusty. There is no logic to the way he has been used (or not used) this season. When rusty, he goes through these stretches. The only thing I am mildly worried about are the guys who are hitting him. When 6 straight non-.200 hitters reach base (5 of them scoring), its a bit of a concern. But, unless Mo is hurt, he will bounce back if, and its a big IF, he is used properly.
Pinch running for Giambi always burns Torre for two reasons. One, its dumb move, period. Two, when he does it, he doesn’t follow the reason WHY he does it. To score more runs.
To pinch run for Giambi and have the guy who is 0-for his career (Nieves) not bunt Thompson over, compounds his mistake. As we have seen in almost every close game since Game 5 of the 2004 ALCS, Joe NEVER learns from his mistakes. Never.
Honest to God, when Giambi foible occured, I thought to myself, “That’s going to come back to haunt us”. Sure, enough, it did.
Not pinch hitting Thompson for Phelps compounds the mistake. Bad enough, you lose Giambi. Now, you have a guy who homered yesterday, a good matchup with the pitcher he would be facing, and you don’t make that move.
Mariano? He should have been in for an inning on Wednesday night to get the bad taste out of his mouth, and to get work, against the Indians. Dry dock him all week, then put him in the 8th inning, when you expressly state you won’t this year, is not just “lying” (I could care less if he lies to the media on his use of players), its a bad tactical decision.
I have already gone on as nauseum in other threads about how badly he mismanaged the 8th and 9th innings last night. From starting the inning with Myers (given the game situation) on down, if Torre was a doctor, he could be sued for malpractice for the work (or lack of it) he put forth that inning.
At this point, I am just tired at his in game management incompetence. He’s already destroyed his best asset, his bullpen, two weeks, into the season. Simply put, the man has no idea how to manage a pitching staff. None.
If you are going to invest almost $200 million dollars on players, but get cheap and just surround Torre with “yes” men (and inexperienced one’s at that) at the most important coaching positions on the staff, you are hurting your chances of winning.
Joe’s strength is his dealings with players. His weakness, and we have seen this for so long, its almost comical, is in game management and handling of a pitching staff.
Now, it gets interesting. Joe has already blown out his bullpen in two weeks of the season. If you aren’t going to use Farnsworth, you need to get rid of him because you need every bit of a 12 man pitching staff with the way this guy abuses arms. We now need to find 5 more relief pitchers willing to give their arms to the cause because Torre has already blown out the bullpen. Its incompetence and the starting pitchers injuries are not an excuse for his mis-management of the bullpen and in game situations.
Its frustrating as all hell to watch. They keep putting off the inevitable (getting rid of him), and they keep losing games any competent in game manager puts away.
This is a damn good baseball team. But, it takes more than just being, “good with the players” to win games. If Jim Leyland is managing this team, even with the injuries, they are 12-3 right now.
You can’t just slug every night. There are a handful of nights, and last night was one of them, that competent in game managing closes out a game. Torre once again showed his weakness and the Yankees, to their detriment, haven’t fixed it since Zimmer left.
Nights like last night, I still long for the “Old George”. He should have been fired last year, and survived. He is going to kill this team this year unless he changes his ways.
Its a shame too because this is a good team. He has more weapons at his disposal than any other manager in baseball and has no clue how to use them effectively. Its a damn shame.
It’s almost 2am here in Los Angeles and I still can’t go to sleep. Something about losing to them Red Sox bitches just eats at me. Hopefully we can recover and win one tomorrow, I mean later today.
SJ44: very well said. It’s frustrating to watch.
Well written SJ44.
SJ44; you said everything I was going to say and more. Great post!
As frustrating as it is to admit, Mr. Torre’s poor in game management skills are a big part of the reason that he wasn’t too successful in the National League. Not to undermine what he’s meant to the Yankees of the late 90’s… but it’s 2007 now. Sure, he’s great with the media and handles NY and the players well but if we are really being honest, he’s consistently made the same mistakes with the bullpen and with poor in game decisions. This is hard to ignore.
Oh yeah, and this whole Farnsworthless thing is a joke. Use him or lose him. Sh*t or get off the pot already. What is he made of, glass? Come on now.
Ugh…all this frustration over a game in April. You just gotta love it!
Peter – there are simply not a lot of instances where the extra footspeed between Giambi and someone like KT is worth taking Giambi’s bat out of the lineup – and last night was certainly not one of those instances.
Joe injects himself into games and overmanages when the best thing to do is to sit there and let this collection of talent play.
Let’s get something straight. This team hasn’t blown out it[’s bullpen in the first two weeks.
Players who consistently make 60 or 70 appearances a year like Proctor, Farnsworth, and Viscaino are not going to burn out within the first 15 games of the season.
Let’s also keep in mind that that Torre is being forced to overuse his pen because he currently has three rookies in the starting rotation and they aren’t giving the team 6 or 7 innings per start that would be ideal.
It’s not time to panic. Once Wang and Moose return from the DL and the possibility of Clemens joining in June or July, the bullpen won’t be forced to throw an average of 4 innings per night as they are doing now.
Sure, this loss sucks, but let’s not get crazy. The last time the Yanks had a devastating loss like this one — they went home and swept the Tribe with three rookie starters.
Let’s not get crazy.
I am reading the daily news and they are talking about how A-rod didn’t get it done in the 9th.. THIS ISN’T THE STORY. The story should be MO blows 2 saves, his only 2 chances of the year. I mean come on the second hr should have been the game winner. What more do we want. The guy drove in 4 out of the six runs, and then hits a double and Giambi drives him in for another run. You can basically give A-rod credit for 5 runs.. One guy can’t do more to help his team win…
Torre’s management of a pitching staff has always been questionable. Also, definitely a dumb move taking out Giambi’s bat for Kevin Thompson in that situation (Had Posada been available on the bench I could live with that move).
Torre goes against his word (which is never surprising) and brings in Mo Rivera for a 5-out save. Questionsable? Definitely.
Torre is trying to insure 1 win at Fenway, sending a message to the other 2 kids starting this weekend that they have a poor chance of winning. It was a panic move to be sure.
However, let’s face one thing: questionable move or not – you normally count that as a “win” with Mo having to get 5 outs. So despite Torre’s dumb moves our key players didn’t perfom when they should have – THAT is where the ultimate blame lies for this loss.
Mo has poor location (for him) and little movement on his cutter right now. Its still too early to push the panic button, given his strong Spring performance,but he needs to get a regular pitching routine going. The location will definitely come around. Let’s see if the devastating movement on the cutter can return from his 37- year old arm.
Yeah, sure, Torre’s not blowing out the bullpen. He only asked Vizcaino, who has pitched in nearly every game and threw 33 pitches the previous night, to come in again.
Torre also took out Igawa and Rasner early, despite knowing that Karstens and Wright were starting in this series. He could have taken AT LEAST two innings out of the bullpen’s hands in the Indians series and didn’t.
Yankee fans lionize Mo almost to a godlike stature, but as soon as he fails they assume he’s done. Every time he’s come out of the gate rusty and ineffective, people have questioned him. I would think — with all the lofty accolades thrown his way by the fans over the years — this “37 year old arm” would get more respect.
“In every adversity there lies the seed of an equivalent advantage. In every defeat there is a lesson showing you how to win the victory next time. “
I agree paul. Story in the news is wrong. This is a Torre issue. Since he lost Zim and since 2001, he has not been able to manage that pitching staff. He has grossly overused the bullpen and we are only 15 games into the season.
Last night does not define the season by any means in terms of losing and winning, but it does define the poor decisions by Torre. He no longer has the faith in his players. He cannot handle younger teams because he cannot deal with the mistakes. They force his hand and make him manage.
Paul:
I haven’t seen the Daily News article you refer to but whoever wrote that is clearly an insane moron and knows nothing about baseball! Without ARod, the Yankees are even IN that game!
Who is the genius that wrote the article? “Gloomy”?
As for the Daily News saying A-Rod didn’t get it done in the 9th, that’s utterly ridiculous. He has basically carried the team thus far.
I agree with the criticisms of Torre’s moves, but not the tone of panic. Joe was managing that game like the ACLS– as LathamJoe said, this was the game the Yanks really wanted to win. We all know how attached Joe gets to certain pitchers, and it looks like he was grooming Vizciano for the MLB-appearance leader this year. Probably for the best that Joe got burned on all his managing moves– MAYBE, just MAYBE it’ll sink in this time.
All Torre worry aside, Mo normally wins that game. A combination of bad control and bad luck (the bloop over a shallow playing Jeter) was his undoing. I still see a silver lining: Curt doesn’t seem to have it this year. He hasn’t gotten blown out yet this season, but he’s been very hittable. And A-Rod tagging two has got to get to him.
Stormy:
Please don’t mistake my post for any disrespect of Mo Rivera. If you’ve read my past posts, I’m convinced that Mo is the greatest closer in history and one of the classiest human beings in professional sports.
I was merely stating obvious fact: At 37, its normal for a pitcher to lose movement before they actually lose velocity.
That said, Mo is not your typical pitcher. He has a near perfect delivery and throws primarily fastballs which save wear on his elbow. Mo was lights out in ST and his first few appearances, so there is no way that he loses his effectiveness overnight. I’m hoping its just Spring rust and he returns to form soon. And he’s the type of guy who will adjust and re-invent to stay effective.
This is not Mo of 1996-2001 where k’s were plentiful and he could throw 2 innings. He’s made adjustments and remains one of the best closers in baseball (if not THE best) and still scares the hell out of the opposition!
Viscaino’s hadn’t pitched since Saturday in OAK when he threw the long inning on Thursday — which means he had the same amount of rest between appearances that a typical starter gets between starts (4 days).
Don’t let facts get in the way of your rant.
Igawa threw 92 pitches on Wednesday. Since it is April and we don’t know what kind of pitch counts Igawa can handle yet (since he always had 6 days of rest between starts in Japan), it’s rather foolish for you to dictate how many pitches he can throw at this level because nobody knows the answer to that question yet.
The 3 innings of relief that day were an inning apiece from Proctor, Henn, and Britton. Perhaps Proctor didn’t need to pitch an inning with that kind of lead, but the other pitchers were Henn and Britton — and neither are go-to guys on this staff.
If you watched the game on Thursday, you should have noticed that Rasner was clearly running out of gas in the 4th inning and was damn lucky he got out of that inning unscathed because he was all over the place and loaded the bases.
Rasner got in trouble again in the 5th inning and it was clear that Rasner was gassed. The score was tied at 1-1 so it’s not like the game was well in hand.
When you review the facts and not simply spew emotional hyperbole, how can you argue that pulling Rasner in that situation wasn’t the right thing to do?
Once again, this bullpen is not burned out by Game #15. Have they been getting a lot of work?
Certainly. But some of these guys are used to 60-70 appearances a year. These guys aren’t going to burn out this quickly.
As I stated earlier, they will rest more often when the regulars return.
anaconda, Vizcaino pitched the night before. It was a pretty piss-poor decision by Torre to pull him after 6 pitches, and then after Myers failed to bring in a pitcher who just got completely burned the night before.
But he got the ball to Mo, and Mo blew it.
I meant, pull Proctor after 6 pitches.
Peter:
Took a glance at the Daily News lead story regarding last night’s meltdown.
Just goes to show you how the press deals with Arod…
Here’s a guy clearly in the zone, and McCarron places part of the blame for the loss…
tell McCarron to go pound it, and report what truly happened
mismanagement of the game
bullpen meltdown
murphy’s law
Rodriguez didn’t deserve the backhanded slight and frankly if I was in McCaron’s vicinity, I would have tossed him onto the net.
He’s an idiot
For Jorge to say he’ll be out a few days that must be one heck of a bruise.
he’s always itching to come back. I mean he was only out a week if that with the broken nose!!
His absense could really hurt us. Is there anyway he could dh? I mean he hit that double with the bruised thumb.
As for Mo he does this every year, and every year we panic. Remember 2 years ago back to back blown saves against he soxs, the sky was falling and he posted his best ERA of his career!!
I’m quite sure Viscaino is accustomed to pitching 2 days in a row since he’s averaged 70 appearances over the last several seasons. He also had 4 days of rest prior to his Thursday appearance.
It also seems like Viscaino was temporarily the 8th inning guy for Torre so he used him again last night in that situation. Plus, Torre likes his guys to get back out there ASAP when they have a bad outing.
All of this stuff would be irrelevant if Mo hadn’t showed that he was human once in a while and blew the save opportunity.
It’s not time to panic. They will be fine.
It’s hard to fathom Coco Crisp and Alex Cora driving in the final 3 runs to beat us. That’s inexusable regarless of who is pitching. Coco Crisp and Alex Cora!!! I woke up in the middle of the night saying that over and over, that is when I wasn’t seeing that pitch out over the plate that Varitek hit. 3 guys all hitting under .230 beating us sure is hard to swallow. Mo will be fine. We’ve seen him struggle like this before.
I’m looking forward to seeing Karstens pitch again, but you can bet he’ll be on a pitch count of around 80 pitches today. We’ll be needing our bullpen again, BIG TIME. I can’t imagine Torre using Vizcaino today. I don’t think Torre has lost any faith in Bruney, but the same can’t be said of Farnsworth. There’s a good chance we’ll be seeing both of them today.
Let’s hope we give Karstens some run support with a lineup that likely wont include either Posada or Damon. Sounds like Damon hurt his back making that catch in left center last night.
Ya know, it wasn’t like they were crushing the ball off of Mo. Varitek had a solid single, but Crisp’s triple was a bouncing ball hit in a perfect spot down the line. And then there was Cora’s bloop over the drawn in infield, that reminded me so much of Luis Gonzalez’s blooper over the drawn in infield to win it for Arizona in the 2001 W.S.
Let’s spread the blame around a little more. After Damon left the bases loaded to end the 7th, grounding meekly to 2nd, giving him a weak 0-5, I had this funny feeling that after failing in a chance to blow the game open, Boston was still in it, and sure enough, it happened.
Man, I tell ya, I was floored last Sunday after the Oakland loss, and now another ball-buster. Life’s a bitch.
As for Torre, everything that went right from 1996-00 now seems to have swung the other way. And that bullpen management/stubborness of his. Ugh. I’m ready for a change.
Anyway, our backs are against the wall now, with Karstens and Wright slated for the next two. Hopefully, some good things will happen today, and tomorrow night.
Myers is a waste of a roster spot if all he is on here is to face ortiz and he can’t even get him out! okay if you were going to bring him in to face him, than leave him in!! one batter he comes in for gives up a hit than you go to another pitcher!
why couldn’t bruney start the inning? why wasn’t Mo used (like someone said) in one of the indians games?
No one seems to ask joe the hard hitting questions because HE will SULK!!
It’s hard to blame him for pinchrunning for Giambi with a 4 run lead? Are you kidding me? What was the reasoning for that? Do you think Boston would pinchrun for Ortiz in that same situation? You’d have be a f*ckng idiot to think that was a fine decision. The only thing that can happen is that ends up burning you. And then, Joe thinks it’s smart to not pinch hit Phelps for KT?
How about this, if it always burns you to pinchrun for Giambi, THEN STOP F*CKING DOING IT.
Taylor
Thank you for making that point. Would Francona ever consider taking Ortiz’s bat out of the lineup at that point in the game? No.
It’s an indefensible move.
Peter,
Thanks for the nice words about Mariano. He is a great man, a great teammate and one of the greatest right-handed pitchers ever. Everyone in the Bronx is very proud of him.
A few thoughts –
1. When Torre pinch-ran for Giambi, I thought “If they can’t hold onto a four run lead in the 8th inning, they don’t deserve to win.” Sad, but true. Give the Red Sox credit for sticking it out.
2. I’ve never been a relief pitcher, but it must be hard to get your control together if you’re not working. Unfortunately, your work time comes in pressure situations. Mo needs to be used more often than once every 4-5 days.
3. As for Vizcaino, he just didn’t have it, in a slump. I really don’t think a guy whose nickname in Arizona was “Daily” for how often he’s used over the years is burned out after the first two weeks of the season.
4. What’s the deal with Farnsworth? Where was he?
5. The best thing about baseball is that it’s a game of redemption. There’s always another at-bat, inning, game… There’s always tomorrow. Remember Giambi, A-Rod…even Scarlett O’Hara in GWTW.
This is your manager on auto-pilot. Giambi on base late in the game? Pinch hit. Ignore previous results. Need a rightie in the eighth? Vizcaino is your newly annointed set-up man. Ignore previous results. (Including the fact that of all your right handers in the pen, Viz had not only pitched the night before, but with horrible results. Anyone — Bruney, Britton, Bean — would’ve been preferable.)
And finally. If Minky, our glove man, was playing no-doubles defense, we’re probably discussing something else.
“Viscaino’s hadn’t pitched since Saturday in OAK when he threw the long inning on Thursday—which means he had the same amount of rest between appearances that a typical starter gets between starts (4 days). Don’t let facts get in the way of your rant.”
You’re so up on your facts you can’t even spell the guy’s name right. Great. When he pitched BEFORE Thursday is irrelevant. He threw 33 pitches in a tough inning the NIGHT BEFORE. That’s what is important. 33 pitches is a lot for one inning, especially for a reliever. Every other right-hander in the bullpen had been used LESS than Vizcaino the previous day. There’s no justification for bringing him into this game. So you can insult me and call my arguments “rants” (which is frankly an annoying ploy) all you want.
“Igawa threw 92 pitches on Wednesday. Since it is April and we don’t know what kind of pitch counts Igawa can handle yet (since he always had 6 days of rest between starts in Japan), it’s rather foolish for you to dictate how many pitches he can throw at this level because nobody knows the answer to that question yet.”
WE don’t know what kind of pitch counts he can handle? I would assume the YANKEES sure do. They’ve been scouting him for years. Torre let Wright, in his first big-league start, throw over 100 pitches. And look at that! It didn’t kill him. Igawa could have gone one more inning and thrown 100-110 pitches. It would have saved the bullpen an inning. Those innings matter when you have Torre burning out Bruney in five-run leads.
“If you watched the game on Thursday, you should have noticed that Rasner was clearly running out of gas in the 4th inning and was damn lucky he got out of that inning unscathed because he was all over the place and loaded the bases.”
I watch every game, you insufferable twit. Rasner got out of the previous inning with a huge strikeout (throwing his best fastball of the game). The next inning he gets a fly ball out, and then gives up a single. Wow. Look out. Dude is STRUGGLING. A base hit? Get him the hell out of there! He had only thrown 82 pitches. He wasn’t on fumes. Torre just had a quick hook. We’ll never know, but if he doesn’t take out Rasner and lets him go one more inning, maybe Bruney or Vizcaino doesn’t pitch that day.
“Rasner got in trouble again in the 5th inning and it was clear that Rasner was gassed. The score was tied at 1-1 so it’s not like the game was well in hand.”
“Clear” he was gassed? Based on what? Because he got a little wild in the fourth? Because he got a quick out and then gave up a hit? Yeah, all evidence of being “gassed.” Right. Of course.
“When you review the facts and not simply spew emotional hyperbole, how can you argue that pulling Rasner in that situation wasn’t the right thing to do?”
So stating an opinion is “emotional hyperbole”? I guess anyone who disagrees with the great anaconda is spewing “emotional hyperbole.” That’s a great argument — often used by two year olds.
“Once again, this bullpen is not burned out by Game #15. Have they been getting a lot of work? Certainly. But some of these guys are used to 60-70 appearances a year. These guys aren’t going to burn out this quickly. As I stated earlier, they will rest more often when the regulars return.”
If you think Vizcaino is going to withstand this abuse, fine, but if Torre thinks Vizcaino is somehow Superman and thinks he can come back from throwing 30 pitches to pitch the next night, Vizcaino is going to go the way of Quantrill. You have to consider the stress the reliever went through the previous day — that’s what is important. Vizcaino threw a lot of pitches in a stressful inning. Torre had equally-as-good, fresher right arms in his bullpen. But if you want to defend Torre to the end and say Vizcaino should have been in there, go ahead be my guest.
I’m not into back-and-forthing on comment sections with people who get as pointlessly indignant as you (it’s like beating your head into a wall). So feel free to talk about my emotional hyperbole. And go with God, brother.
It’s also not like Giambi was on second and you could tack on another with a single. Giambi was on first and he did NOTHING to move him to second!
SJ44 – a tip of the cap to you for the painfully accurate but sad summation of this team’s number one obstacle to winning – especially against Boston – the manager.
Ironically they’re grooming Mattingly and Guidry – defferential novices – to be like Joe – the one Yankee who is so scared to play Boston that he cuts and runs from his game plan on the first sign of trouble in the first of 19 games. (HUGE KUDOS TO AROD for bringing bowling balls into this contest last night) The first sign that Joe was psyched out by Fenway was when he began standing in the dugout with a bat several years ago. Only park in baseball he doesn’t sit and drink his water and tea. He looked like the captain of a sinking ship in there last night when we were still up 6-2. No contract renewal for Joe period, and no Division for us this year if Cash or George don’t kick his butt.
Torre has actually admitted that it’s not fun to go to Fenway. He said it to reporters after Thursday afternoon’s game. What he did (or didn’t do) last night should surprise no one.
Pinch running for Giambi with Posada already out was a bad move.
For those wondering why Torre didnt let Proctor start the 8th against Ortiz despite only throwing 6 pitches in the 7th…Ortiz is 4 for 9 lifetime against Proctor. The next hitter Ramirezis 4 for 10.
Yeah. It’s weird how seamlessly steely became sleepy. But Joe’s sleepwalking has already cost the team two games. That’s going to add up over the course of a season.
I was hoping for Lou last winter. Joe’s been an amazing part of this franchise, the best manager in my lifetime. But giving him a victory lap was a serious mistake.
why is the press so hesitant to criticize clueless joe?
I thought Pettitte should have been allowed to finish the 7th. But, that not being done, I have no problem with Proctor not sticking around for the 8th, since Myers is there specifically to get Ortiz, and although he hasn’t always been successful, I believe he is more successful than not in getting him out. However, I don’t know that I would have brought in Vizcaino. Probably Farns or Bruney. And Mo should not be in in that situation, given the fact he hasn’t had much work.
But no way do you pinch run for Giambi in that situation. I really am not getting this move by Torre lately. I think this is probably the key move in the game, since in the 9th, with A-Rod having yet another opportunity to be the hero, who’s up behind him for protection? Kevin Thompson. And after that, Nieves or a pinch hitter. Just not good long-term thinking in my opinion. Boston is a good team, and they rarely go quietly into the night.
I generally like Torre, and I don’t like to be overly critical of his pitching moves. Many are made that he has no choice about because his starters are not giving him what the team needs. I do think he has a quick hook (although, I’m sure there would be criticism waiting right around the corner if he left someone in too long), but he also has quick access to a lot of information that we as fans either don’t have at all, or don’t have at our fingertips. In general, he must be doing something right, because they continue to win their division, and are in the top few in winning percentage, as well.
Another tough loss, but somehow not as stunning as the one against Oakland. This time, two of the hits Mo surrendered were “lucky” hits.
I agree with the poster above who noted that Damon’s at-bat with the bases loaded was also a turning point. Could have really padded the lead there. No guarantee they would have won, but sure would have made it a little easier, and maybe different decisions are made.
I’m not a Torre apologist, but do you guys really think Giambi would’ve made a difference in the 9th? They were facing a pitcher they’ve never seen before…who had good stuff. I think the chances were low for a homerun. Even if Giambi got on base, we’re looking at Nieves or Phelps. Maybe it would’ve made the difference….maybe not. But with a 4 run lead, it should not have been a factor to begin with.
I think the concern was the bullpen. Chalk it up to some luck and some clutch hitting.
c’mon, is anybody really paying attention to Mo’s pitching? He has no real velocity, there is zero break on the cutter, and hitters are really digging their heels in and getting great swings.
there is no way to avoid a sweep now, I’m afraid.
And when will the yankees learn you can’t afford to have completely worthless individuals like wil nieves on the roster. what would happen if posada was sidelined for a few weeks?
melky failed to get a runner in with one out and a guy on third in the top of the 8th. a five-run lead instead of four is a big difference. minky walked, then damon concluded the inning. the guy who didn’t do his job was melky — for showing no plate discipline and striking out on a high fastball out of the zone against a mediocre pitcher. and that’s why he’s the fourth OF and will be on the bench when matsui returns.
mo looked completely efficient during spring training. now he’s either missing locations or leaving balls in the middle of the plate. he’ll get over this, as he has done in the past. but if we’re waiting for the 27-year-old mo rivera to come out of the bullpen, those days are over. he’s mortal. good, but mortal.
I dont blame Joe for going to Mariano in the 8th he was well rested.Shouldve gotten him an inning mid week to keep him sharp however.Minky shoulda been playing the line on Crisp he was nowhere near it.Pinch running for Giambi in that spot is arrogant and I hope Torre thinks about it long and hard.One other thing to think about that I dont think anyone else touched on….KT can hit and I have no problem given the situation that he was allowed to hit and Josh Phelps was on deck to hit for Nieves.If we tied or took the lead Phelps was gonna be our catcher.THat was gonna be rough no matter what happened.
Congrats, Stormy. You have proven you don’t have any idea what you are talking about and don’t have any insight whatsoever.
No need to debate with you any longer because you cannot string together coherent thoughts together when you are foaming at the mouth while typing your response.
I guess relievers like Vizcaino aren’t allowed to pitch on consecutive days when they endure a “stressful” inning the previous day.
Sounds like a great plan. Perhaps the team can just carry 15 pitchers since that would be the only way a pitching staff could implement your bullpen philosophy.
Throwing 33 pitches in a span of 5 days is not exactly torture. Starting pitchers throw more than that between starts to keep their arm warm.
Vizcaino can handle it, but you, obviously — cannot.
I now know why your name is Stormy.
Peter, did anyone in the media have the balls to actually ask Joe why he moronically pinch ran for Giambi?
The question isn’t whether or not Viz could pitch, it’s whether or not he should’ve been Joe’s first option out of the bullpen. There were better arms to select. Joe did what he always does. He creates a routine based on hunches. He sticks with the routine longer than necessary, even in the face of negative results. Again, this isn’t about pitching anyone on consecutive days, it’s about maximizing bullpen efficiency. Joe, who simply can’t or won’t think on his feet, is mired in habit, and to such an extent that he has already cost the team two games.
Clearly, we have alot of injuries, and thats why we are loosing. We are the better team, with the best fans, it is our manifest destiny to win, as we have won 26 ringz and will win 27 this year. We are always the best team, and shall continue to be so, so take heart fellow fans, this will be our year.
Im on the hottest of hot streaks, and will enjoy playing for the cubbies next year. Derek is a raging jealous queen, and besides, hes hung like a gerbil.