Of HBPs and Phil Franchise
-
- April
- 23
Two things that drive me crazy:
1. The idea that the Yankees should throw at David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez. This makes no sense whatsoever. Matsuzaka hit A-Rod with the breaking pitch last night and what happened? He scored on a double. Jeter got hit by a pitch in the third inning? That pushed Damon into scoring position and he scored on a bloop single.
So, Mike Francesa and Co., you want the Yankees to put players from the other team on base? The Red Sox are a lineup built around OBP. Putting them on base does nothing except give them runs. Meanwhile, David Ortiz weighs about 250 pounds and wears a helmet and assorted protective gear. You really think getting hit with the baseball is going to intimidate him?
2. The idea that Phil Hughes need to be called up now. By all means, the Yankees are 8-9 in April. Let’s abandon the development plan of the organization’s best pitching prospect in 15 years. Hughes is 20. Do you really want him to load up on innings now so he blows out his elbow within two years? Because the odds of such a thing increase with workload at a young age. That is a fact. His arm is still developing. Here is how many innings he has thrown in pro ball:
2004: 5.0
2005: 86.1
2006: 152
So in 2007 let’s just load him up and hope for the best. Is that the idea? Never mind that he had a poor spring training with the Major League team and so far in AAA he is 2-1, 3.94. Let’s rush him to the big leagues because the team is off to a slow start.
OK, rant over.
This entry was posted
on Monday, April 23rd, 2007 at 2:42 pm by Peter Abraham.
You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed.
Share and Enjoy: 
| 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
Peter Abraham
Peter, I can’t disagree with you more about Ortiz and Rameriz. That fact is that Yankees hitters have been target practice for boston pitchers for YEARS and the yankees to nothing to protect their players even if Matsuzaka wasn’t trying to him them last night the yankees still have NEVER made the point to boston pitchers that there are consequences to using their hitters as target practice. Maybe if yankee pitchers stood up for their hitters than boston pitchers would think twice before pitching inside that that would help the yankees at the plate. After boston buzzed matsui in the 04 ALCS he did nothing for he rest of the series. Sometimes you have to make a statement and the yankees have come up small in that department for YEARS. Ortiz and Rameriz dance around the bases against us year after year and the yankees NEVER dust them.
Pete,
I agree, Sterling always says that the best revenege for a HBP is to make the pitcher pay and Giambi did just that.
(1) I don’t necessarily agree with hitting Manny or Ortiz, but after those first 2 dingers, Lowell should’ve been on first rubbing a bruise. That’s why teams rarely hit 3 homers in a row, let alone 4.
(2) Who says Hughes would be “loading up on innings” in the majors? Why not keep him on the exact same schedule he’s on in AAA?
No offense, but Hughes for 5 ip, 80-90 pitches, is better than Karstens, Wright et al. Better yet, have him come out of the pen for 2-3 ips 1-2 per week. He gets his innings in, isn’t overused, and actually, you know, learns to pitch in the majors, rather than against a bunch of never-will-bes in AAA.
The only flaw I see in this is Torre, but Cashmoney can hook him up to an electic shock therapy machine and zap him if Hughes stays in beyond his alotted ip.
But no, promoting some lefty from AA, whose only pitched 2 friggin games at the level, over the likes not only of Hughes, but Ohlendorf and Jackson as well, who, as sinker ballers might have kept the ball in the park, was absolutely the right way to go.
I agree with your second point, but the fact is that ortiz and ramirez continue to hit mosnter shots of yankee pitching, personal I think if you brush them off the plate every now and then they won’t feel as comfertable. Noone says you have to put them on base maybe if they get moved off the plate a little or think the next one is coming for them theyll think twice about striking poses after they hit one out at the very least.
Yankee fan fro chicago,
You cant have a a kid on a ML team on a 5inning pitch count which is why hes is not being brought up.Hes on a controlled pitch count right now so if hes called up mid to late season he can be let loose.
Heres a list for you.
Prior
Wood
Liriano
Hernandez
Let him get his innings in, I know you as a fan want to see him pitch but I rather loose a game in April with Wright then compromise a Hughes future for Red Sox-Yankee bragging rights
I don’t disagree w/ you Pete but watching Manny “style” after every HR is nauseating. And “Manny being Manny” isn’t an excuse for acting like a classless punk. If Wright (or any pitcher) were to lodge a fastball between the 2 and 4 on his back when he next came to the plate, I wouldn’t mind it after that kind of display.
I think Manny should be drilled. NOT because the Yankees are getting hit, but because Manny homers and stands in the batter’s box until the ball lands.
I remember once Raul Mondesi did that for the Yanks against Tampa and Joe told him right away, “We don’t do that here.” It’s too bad the Sox don’t have that same class.
“1. The idea that the Yankees should throw at David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez.”
Thanks for covering this, Pete. I, like many myopic Yankee fans, would love to see these guys get drilled every once in awhile… but after reading Buster Olney’s Q&A with Ortiz yesterday in which he talks about being buddies with A-Rod, and calling Giambi a “good guy,” etc. I realized that the players, at their core, are just employees beloning to the same union, and they know full well that there’s no point in creating animosity with someone else, as there is always a chance he’ll be your teammate next year. It does take some of the fun out of it for us fans though.
Guys the answer to both these issues is quite simple, a 43 year old future hall of famer called the Rocket. First of all, something makes me think he doesn’t mind throwing inside. Signing him allows Hughes to fully develop and eventually be mentored by Clemens possibly out of the bullpen. Plus it only costs money for one year. I think that will happen and be great for the 2007 team.
Pete, if Hughes pitches tomorrow and his five next games like he pitched his last game, and Igawa and Rasner/Karstens/Wright continue to struggle in the #4 and #5 spots, the Yankees might have no choice but to promote Hughes who would simply be wasting his talent on nobody hitters. He won’t be the future ace of the rotation if he never comes up. Look at Felix Hernandez. They managed his minor league career PERFECTLY, as good as anyone could have imagined, and he still got injured.
I’m not saying promote him now, just that there will come a time this year when Hughes is dominating and it would actually be irresponsible of Cashman NOT to promote someone who can provide significantly better innings than his current starters are doing. Felix made his very successful major league debut when he was 19. Hughes can do the same, except he’ll be two years older than the King.
I agree with Pete on both counts. Nothing hurt the Yanks more this weekend than walks. Why add HBP to the mix? The biggest mistake of the weekend was the 2 out walk with nobody on to Youkalis on Friday night. It was followed by the home run by Ortiz. I DO believe in pitching inside and keeping batters from leaning in. Hitting them intentionally serves no positive purpose.
The folks who think it’s time for Phil Hughes need to learn the lesson the Twins and Mariners learned with their 20 year old phenoms.
Get off the ledge Yankee fans! We’ve only played 10% of the season!
I dont understand the concept of brining Hughes up to pitch 5 innings. The problem on the team is that the starters arent giving us enough inning, and with the starting staff in shambles bringing up another 5 inning pitcher is adding to the problem. Now when Moose and Wang come back and we have a solid front 3 decent 4 in Igawa, at that point I’d be willing to see what the kid has got, but throwing him into the fire when the team is struggling is counterproductive to his development as well as our playoff aspirations
Pete,
I agree, hitting ortiz and manny wont accomplish much, but there is a difference between hitting them and brushing them back… thats what needs to happen more. Everyone has seen how manny gets very uncomfortable after you knock him down. remember a couple years ago, clemens knocked manny down and after that, manny was so scared to get back in the box. make them scared!!!
btw, the way manny stared at his home run yesterday. someone needs to get drilled.. thats how you put an end to that nonsense!!!!
Once a pitcher gets to New York, you can’t control his innings. If Hughes has a shutout going after 5 Joe just can’t take him out. You want him here when he can without major restrictions.
I can’t believe so many want to mess with this kid’s future. Look at Wood, Prior, Liriano, etc.
Pete,
If I buzz a 90 mph fastball at your head, will you stop writing such garbage? Nobody is saying they should try to injure Ortiz or Manny or even put them on base. Just throw them inside every now and then and establish some command of the plate. Yankee pitchers don’t do this; Manny and Ortiz feel extremely comfortable against us because they know we won’t go inside, and they lean in on every pitch and continue to dominate our pitching.
“Do you really want him to load up on innings now so he blows out his elbow within two years? Because the odds of such a thing increase with workload at a young age. That is a fact. ”
Is that a fact? Where is your evidence (BP.com has plenty of studies showing the opposite is true). Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Hughes pitching innings now in the minors. What would be so different about having him throw those same pitches in the minors. You CAN control his innings at this level…Torre seems to pull every starter after 5 innings anyway. Chase Wright is simply not an acceptable option. Holding back Hughes makes absolutely no sense.
We should put Hughes on whatever routine Liriano was on.
I agree about Hughes, but not about the HBPs. I don’t think you necessarily have to put them on base, though I think Chase had nothing to lose by drilling someone in the glute on his way out. I think the more important aspect is the comfort level, as Stan said. If they’re not worrying about the inside pitch, theyll get that much better looks at the stuff on the outer half of the plate. Kind of like what everyone’s favorite commentator Joe Morgan was saying about A-Rod last night.
I think hitting Manny and Ortiz on purpose would just be stupid. First of all, it puts them on base for JD Drew. Second of all, you’re only going to piss them off, probably not hurt them, not to mention you can be certain their pitching staff will strike back and could cost us an important player. I doubt it will “scare” them at all Yankee VIP.
Also, it looked to me like both of them were brushed back a fair amount this weekend and it didn’t seem to change their ways.
It would be very nice to show Manny and Ortiz off the plate now and then. And when Manny strolls out of the batter’s box after a home run, he deserves one in his ear. That being said, Francesa and Russo are idiots.
The Yankees did not lose because they didn’t throw inside or try to intimidate Ortiz and Manny. They lost because their pitchers got lit up every which way outside of Pettite. That’s the bottom line.
There are many, many games left and these problems will work themselves out over the course of the season. Right now, the team needs some length from the starting pitching to give the bullpen a break. Overusing the relief corps will do more to kill this season than anything else.
Wood and Prior were sent out by Dusty for 130p outings. Torre doesn’t do that to his starters.
And Loriano had mechanical issues, iirc, (so did Prior too), which everyone seems to agree St. Phil doesn’t have.
In any case if the issue is inability to control his ip, than have him pitch long relief, starting innings himself rather than trying to clean up someone else’s mess. The way Earl Weaver broke some of his great staff of the late 60s, early 70s in.
From my perspective btw, this is not messing w/ St. Phil’s future, but aiding it. He’s not going to learn to pitch in the big leagues by pitching in AAA. He’s too good to learn much there.
Pete,
i completely disagree with you. I believe in the nolan ryan school of pitching. you do it because manny stands and watches his HRs. you do it because they hit your star so you hit theirs. you do it because you have to pitch inside. that is baseball. you plunk manny or papi once or twice and they’re not going to be so comfortable-especially manny. when the pedro-zimmer fight happened a few years back, manny ducked out from a fastball down the plate when he thought it was coming inside. you could tell the thought of an inside fastball made his HAIR JUMP.
I for one hope that Chase Wright is not scarred by this expirience, I really want him to succeed.
Jeff NJ said it perfectly. The Rocket is the answer to both.
Hitting those guys or at least brushing them back off the plate (and on their arses) is not a matter of revenge, but protection of our batters. Whether Matsuzaka intended to hit them or not (and I believe he didn’t), he went inside twice and missed twice, hitting two of our best hitters. The lesson in buzzing or Papi or Minny is that it’s not ok to go inside against our batters.
Skippy, agreed.. brush backs wont scare everyone. I was talking specifically about Manny cause ive seen how he reacts and I feel it would be effective against him…
forget about franchise coming up.. i dont even want him up here yet… he was ineffective in spring training and isnt blowing them away in AAA, so why do you think he will be more effective then karsten/rasner/wright (who all had very good springs btw).
Hey Pete.. that trade you threw out there in the spring about farnsworth to the phillies for lieber and a backup catcher sounds like a great idea now..
Pete when is going to be right time for Hughes?? He’s proven in SP and in AAA that this kid is ready. By the time he’s allowed to come up this team will be 15 games out and the bullpen will be toast. They need quality arms, not these wet noodles that Karstens and Wright have. If the Yankees are going to tank the season then be up front and honest with the paying customers that shell out big money for tickets and Directv to see their team. The problem is that when you have horrible pitching performances like they have been getting and you have the best pitching prospect in baseball at AAA, not AA who is mature beyond his 20 years and is the best pitching option behind Pettitte and Wang its a shame to waste him in Scanton. This kid belongs on the big stage. Who’s to say he’s not ready now, are you a arthroscopic surgeon.? By tanking these games because of mediocre pitching instead of having your best out there is cheating the public and the rest of the team. Many believed that he should have been up last year. Jim Callis in his many columns for BA and ESPN says that he should be in the Yankees rotation now and should have been in the playoffs last year. Who’s to say he doesn’t get run over by a truck next year, or gets cancer, etc. He’s healthy now, he can help the team now, he’s better than anyone out there now he should be pitching in the Bronx now!
“The lesson in buzzing or Papi or Minny is that it’s not ok to go inside against our batters.”
but it is okay to go inside against your batters. brush them back if they hang over the plate… thats what a pitcher has to do.
1. leave phil hughes right where he is . maybe next year when he’s 21 he can become a rookie in the bigs .
2. throwing some chin music and hitting a batter are two different animals , but can achieve the same thing . with two outs and and nobody on i say hit ” big sloppy ” right in the butt .
and on the Hughes thing, same thing. Bring the Rocket, let him hold it down and mentor baby Rocket come September.
“I can’t believe so many want to mess with this kid’s future. Look at Wood, Prior, Liriano, etc.”
Maybe we need to add Seattle’s Fernandez to that list?
Pete’s right, don’t sacrifice the future because we lost three in April to the Red Sux. We get Moose and Wanger back – we’re fine (I don’t expect to see the Rajah again until 2010 at the earliest). I’d rather see us sign Clemens again instead of bringing Hughes up for an extended stay in New York.
Also, Liriano, for example, didn’t pitch significant innings at the MLB level until age 22. Mark Prior also debuted in his age 22 season. Are you suggesting Hughes should be at least three years away? Anecdotal evidence is simply not persuasive, mostly because anyone can point to three counter examples.
Right now Ortiz and Ramirez OWN the inside part of the plate. If Yankees pitchers want to have a chance against these guys they’ve got to make them uncomfortable. They have to own the inside part of the plate (yes, think Clemens). I want Ortiz and Ramirez knocked to the ground once a game, not hit with a pitch.
As far as Hughes goes, we have 5 starters in Wang, Pettitte, Mussina, Igawa, and Karstens. If one of them goes down for a short time with I don’t know, say, a hamstring injury, Hughes should get a start or two. There is no danger in that at all. Send him back when we’re healed up. He’s young but he’s not a baby, and 90 pitches is 90 pitches regardless of the level.
matt garza with the twins was almost as good as hughes at a,aa,and aaa, and he came up last year and went 3-6 for the twins in their pennant push in 2006.
hughes is similar in that he’s just not ready for prime time action. garza is now back in the minors and his being brought up for a pennate race may have set him back a year.
there is no need to rush hughes. maybe september just to let him see what it looks like.
What I meant to say is, if you’re going to go inside and miss not once, but twice, don’t go inside. I get that going inside to brush guys like Jeter (who dive over the plate) back is part of the game, he knows it too and accepts the risks and the bruises. But why is it not part of our game as well? why do big sloppi and minny go up there without a care in the world and taunt our pitchers (minny at least) with every hit/hr? they need to get brushed back just the same. And if they’re going to hit our guys because they lack the control to go inside without hitting someone, then they need to get hit as well, should have at least once sent a message, even if no contact was made, to the very first batter the inning after Jeter was hit, if not sooner.
Completely agree on Hughes. I do think we need to throw inside on Ortiz, if only to get him to move his feet. You don’t need to hit him.
Pete,
Do you see any way that the Yankees will have Phil on track to come up in August (or thereabouts) by limiting his innings enough early on. Obviously, as you pointed out, you can’t control innings once he’s in the bigs, but if you’re able to limit him to 100-115 innings over the first 4 months of the season (by giving him an extra day rest here and there and limiting his pitches/start), he could have enough innings left on his season total to be given free reign in the majors. Is that something the Yankees are trying to do or is fair to say we won’t see him until next year?
All it takes to get inside Manny’s head is to throw one up, doesn’t even have to be inside (2003 ALCS brawl-inspiring upstairs but over the plate).
Big Papi needs to be less comfortable, people have been saying it for years and they never do it. And he continues to own our pitchers.
CHIN MUSIC. Ortiz can take it and he’s professional enough not to drop-kick Don Zimmer, he’ll just take his base and get the message.
The reason the pitchers were getting lit is because they couldn’t put hitters away. 0-2 and 1-2 counts turned into walks. I do not understand how you can get 2 strikes on a guy and then try and finesse the rest of the way. The Yankees pitchers seemed to be afraid to throw strikes—or maybe they’re just trying to be too perfect. Either way, too many walks, and too many walks to lead off innings. So, not only are there too many baserunners that shouldn’t be there, but figure at least 6 pitches per batter, more if they’re fouling off you’re good pitches, and, voila, the pitch counts are astronimical. Relief pitchers need to come in and throw strikes.
Regarding Phil Hughes, you have to take the long view. When he comes, he will be here for a long time. Why would anyone want to jeopardize that? He may indeed have better mechanics, a delivery that he can repeat consistently, etc., etc., but he’s not fully grown physicallly. He’s not fully developed. And regardless of how mature-minded many people have said he is, he’s 20 years old. 20. What’s the hurry?
The absolute worst that happens this year is the Yankees don’t win their division. I know that’s sacrilege here, but it’s not the end of the world. But, it is only April, and there’s time for the pitching staff to heal and find its balance; or in the alternative, time for Cashman to work some magic.
this might be my favorite of your many killer posts, pete.
i’d rather they miss the playoffs and be careful with hughes. he’s not going to help the team enough to justify blowing out his arm.
they may miss the playoffs this year. it’s something people need to get comfortable with. it’s going to happen at some point. there’s no sense in destroying the kid on the SLIM chance he’s that big a difference maker (and, by the way, right now, he’s not).
Kasey, I agree on not bringing Hughes up now, but not on not making the playoffs. If anything, this weekend showed we can stay within 5-runs of Boston with an over-worked bullpen, not yet sharp Mariano, and 4-5 innings from our starters. We could have easily won any or all of those games.
BOTTOM LINE:
Our pitching will get healthier and by extension, better.
They lined up their 3 best pitchers, all pitching at their best, and we hit them all with the runs to prove it.
Someone should throw a ball at Torre’s head the next time he uses Proctor 3 games in a row.
so sure, eventually, we won’t make the playoffs, but that will not be this year.
AL East, WS #27.
Hughes can’t hit the bar yet and it’s April…Leave Hughes in Huggies for now…
But Peter, as for brushing back and establishing the inside part of the plate against some these Sox who have eaten up Yankee pitching – thats a MUST. After Jeter and Arod got hit with pitches, coming in on there two big guys is part of the game.
Peter – have you NOT been around for the rivalry all these years? I somewhat blame it on the pen as well – I wouldn’t expect the kid to plunk a guy, not fair to put him in that spot, but with Proctor, Vizcaino, and the rest of the tired arms out there, someone needs to send a message. We can have that part of the plate, and don’t be humming inside to much on our best hitters. Period.
Ones only to imagine what Billy Martin would have done in that spot.
No need to hit them, how many here would agree that sending a message back—right after they clipped Arod and Jeter, would be appropriate? Where’s the protection to the hitters? Who’s got their backs?
And then, there was no excuse to allow consec HR’s. Only 2nd time in history, and of course on ESPN no less. Totally pathetic.
Basically, I am tired of this good guy image the last few years. Show me a player upset when he didn’t come through would be nice (sarcasm). There is no fight. No emotions whatsoever.
How about Joe putting down his drink and fire up his team once in a while? Get tossed, etc. Show some life as the leader.
i don’t think matsuzaka did it on purpose, but he doesn’t have enough control yet to go inside. should there be a penalty for that? torre will say no.
billy martin would say yes. pinella would say yes.
i disagree with peter when he says david ortiz wouldn’t be affected by up and in pitches. the lefty detroit pitcher(robertson) last year stood him up time and again last year. ortiz became very vulnerable to outside breaking balls.
but throwing up and in isn’t something you do on the spot. a pitcher has to practice it and learn how to do it.shilling announced last ST that he was going to pitch up and in for 2006. he beaned a boston college kid in his first game and beaned two more hitters trying to pitch up and in. it’s not easy to do. mussina gave it up in baltimore when a batter he hit going up and in came to the mound and disabled him. that’s why mussina to this day will not go aggressively inside or retaliate.
to me that’s kind of woosey baseball, but mussina is so good he can get away with hitters being comfortable at the plate. he relies on deception and not fear.
like it or not as long as joe is around, the yankees will not retaliate. torre won’t go so far to punish a pitcher for hitting someone so individual pitchers could do take matters into their own hands. i remember quantrill doing this. so there’s hope if you’re from that school of thought.
Hughes is going 6 innings in AAA. I would like 6 innings from anyone at this point.
Hughes has had one good start in Triple A, following a Spring Training where he got knocked around by major league hitters. Leave him where he is.
Clemens on the other hand…
“so sure, eventually, we won’t make the playoffs, but that will not be this year.
AL East, WS #27.”
i dunno, chris. i’m not seeing that team right now. it’s early and they’re banged up, but they have been finding ways to lose games since the season started. errors, poor starting performances, the bullpen giving back leads, whatever. great teams don’t give games away.
like i said last night, boston doesn’t scare me much. but, in the end, you’ve got to give them credit. if the yankees had rallied to win two of those three games, we’d be crowing about their heart, guts and courage. at some point, you’ve got to give credit where it’s due.
“Hughes has had one good start in Triple A, following a Spring Training where he got knocked around by major league hitters. Leave him where he is.
Clemens on the other hand…”
clemens isn’t coming to a team whose bullpen can’t hold a lead for him. period.
Gentlemen, the integrity of the game for years has been the inside fastball on stud hitters, have it be retaliation, called from the manager, personal, or whatever.
And I don’t care if Shrek is wearing all that gear – you get plunked with a 98 mph fastball, pain will be inflicted.
Randy, when the Rocket comes back, he’ll be the enforcer. Even if a week later, the message would be sent.
I don’t disagree things aren’t pretty right now Kasey, but this is not the first year that’s started this way. It will turn around.
Kasey –
I’m with you and Pete on this one as far as Hughes goes. And to the extent that the division title is not guaranteed nor a birthright, this could be the year that it does not happen. Unless the pitching situation gets straightened out, even if the Yankees win the division, how far will they get?
I’m not saying I’ve given up on the Yankees. They are a good team and contrary to what some people seem to think, they don’t give up. They go about their business in a more methodical way than you see other teams do. They act as if they’ve won before; they win (and lose) with grace. This does not mean they don’t have fire, emotion, or drive. In the past 2 seasons, they have been counted out by the powers that be fairly early. Last season, they did not have any really extended winning streaks. Yet, there they were on the last day of the season, with the best record in baseball (tied for).
What I am saying is that for my own sanity, I may have to, as Kasey said, “get my head around” the idea that they may fall short this time around.
Based on what I remember and what I have read, Billy Martin was an alcoholic and a paranoid. He knew his Xs and Os, but his time and his ways have passed. I know a lot of you are unhappy with Joe these days because we’re not winning, but a return to Billy Martin? No thanks. It’s not what Billy would have done in the game that necessarily matters, it’s what Billy would have done at a bar or restaurant while in Boston that would have made the headlines.
And on the Hughes thing, everybody sounds like a bunch of kids who can’t wait until Christmas to open the Big Box. No you can’t open the Big Box yet. Forget about him already.
and, on the bullpen…. they’re overworked right now, let’s not forget how solid they were up until this weekend and how high everyone was ranking them. One bad weekend and suddenly our bullpen sucks? come on people….....
Pete, thanks for the rant! As for throwing at Ortiz and Manny, what you really want to do is pitch them inside, and the Yankees haven’t done much of that either. Remember when Clemens threw a ball over Manny’s head? He nearly lost his mind. As for Ortiz, there’s no excuse for not making him move his feet once in a while. He is far too comfortable against Yankee pitching.
And if you hit him while pitching inside—as Matzusaka did, twice—then you live with that. But moving them off the plate is what’s important here.
Manny deserves to be plunked right in the gizzard. His homerun last week against Toronto was a total mockery. He loves to watch his homeruns and always has. BUT, it makes no sense to do it in a close game and with the Yankees bullpen piching the way it did last weekend, they are all close. We need a lead of 8 runs or more, then do it.
kasey –
So Clemens will go to a team (the Astros) that can’t even create a lead for him? I just can’t see him going back to Boston while Schilling is still there, and Pettitte is pitching in NY.
“basically, I am tired of this good guy image the last few years”
the time i hated the most with the yankees being good guys was their staying on the field when the red sox had their 2004 world series ceremony in 2005.
i would rather eat dirt than watch that.
Clemens comes to NY or sticks with playing golf and pitching to his kid, period.
I agree that Hughes shouldn’t be overworked, and I don’t think he should be permanently called up this season at all. BUT…
Given the rotation’s current state, why not bring him up for one start, on his regular day (so long as it’s not Wang, Pettitte or Igawa’s day) and with one caveat: You’re going back to Trenton after this start, Phil. Give up 8 runs in the first, or throw a no-hitter…you’re going back either way. Don’t pitch for a spot in the rotation, because it’s not time. Just get a feel for it, help us out for one start, then resume your program in Trenton.
Can that hurt?
okay.
that’s all I got for now.
sorry if I lulled someone to sleep.
who would’ve known that asterik-ing your stuff would create those funky boxes?
coolness.
all right, I’ve learned my one thing for today.
I can go home and watch the Yankees game now.
I also have to disagree on the topic of brush backs. Intimidation can be used effectively to help get hitters out. Just listen to an old timer (Joe Torre for that matter) talk about what it was like facing Bob Gibson and then tell me that dropping someone hard on their fanny doesn’t improve the odds of the pitcher. We all seem to pine for the return of Roger Clemens, one of the last remaining old school intimidation pitchers in the game. Mike Piazza anyone?
Baseball historically has not been a “gentlemens’ game, and I think the outcry against ‘pitching inside’ is a product of free agency. It has nothing to do with the safety of the players, but the fact that they are worth so much money to agents and owners. I certainly don’t want to see anyone get hurt, but our arms and attitude are soft and it costs us against the sawks consistently.
Sorry but this is the bigs and you play to win. You buzz them a few times and the message will be sent. I’m sick of seeing our players hit and sometimes hurt because we refuse to play hard.
didn’t mariano throw a ball over a red sox batter’s head the first game after they got to him. i seem to remember that. maybe more” messages” are being sent that we know about. beckett came out the next day and didn’t go near any yankee which suprised me.
pettitte did hit youkillis pretty good in the first game. maybe there is more going on than we realize.
Stephen:
Bring Hughes up so he can throw 80 pitches? If I had to guess that gets him to the 4th or 5th inning.
You said: “Give up 8 runs in the first, or throw a no-hitter…you’re going back either way.” Hey Steve. He ain’t throwing a no hitter. So how is the alternative better than what Wright or Rasner or Karstens have done? It makes no sense other than to satisfy some voyeuristic need to see Phil Hughes in pinstripes before he’s ready.
And what about the Line Drive he takes off his face or shin or wherever in those completely unnecessary 4 o 5 innings? I don’t want to be you if you are the GM who rushes Hughes up for 4 or 5 innings and gets him injured.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot – Manny should have been buzzed the first pitch he saw after telling Joe Morgan he was going to have a “big night”.
I don’t think either of those were messages Randy. Pettitte was before anything else happened, Mo’ just wasn’t sharp.
But who knows, you could be right… I just don’t think that’s the case.
C’mon people, unless MLB changes the rules regarding the armor that batters can wear in the box, there’s little effect to buzzing a guy like Ortiz. Ortiz can hang his densely-padded elbow over the plate with little regard for injury. The same with Bonds, A-Rod, and others. MLB allows hitters to own the inside of plate; and for good reason, the average fan can appreciate home runs, not so much on inside pitching.
And as for Hughes, he’s on a strict inning count and for good reason. If I remember correctly, there was a study that showed that pitchers that load up on innings in their early 20s often have big-time physical problems in their mid-to-late 20s.
But that kind of thinking probably won’t sway the mini-Steinbrenners in our midst. We lost three in a row to the hated Red Sox, and SOMETHING must be done. If that means ruining a promising young pitcher’s future by rushing him to the majors now, so be it! When he breaks down in a few years because of the early abuse, we can just call him a loser, claim he was never a “True Yankee,” and boo him out of town.
I could not agree with you more.
The real issue is we as yankees fans feel gelded and powerless when our team loses, as most teams do.
The unusual thing is we do not lose anymore, or well, until this century, when we seem to have one gut wrenching loss after another in the playoffs, culminating with that horrid 4 game collapse to the hated sox.
We LOVE our Yanks. And we hate losing, and it is new to us, and we feel GELDED and when we watch the Sox beat us, we feel impotent.
So we say lets hit them, I think these cries from the peanut gallery speak volumes about the fans, and have very little to do with the players.
The best thing we can do is beat the Sox by great pitching, and right now, we just cannot do that, and that sad fact is what makes us all want to scream from the parapets BEAN THEM.
Cmon Yankees fans, grow up, we are better than this, lets win by beating them, not acting like testosterone laided teenagers.
I still think that Dice-K was shaking so hard he couldn’t control the pitches inside. Besides, no rookie is going to throw at Jeter and A-Rod on purpose in their first meeting. He was risking baseabll’s World War III – - and maybe a loss in a very big game for them. Does anyone know of his rep in Japan for hitting batters? (Do they even throw at each other in Japanese baseball?)
My one question on Hughes is 6 inning at AAA or 6 inning at the big leagues is there a difference?
I mean isn’t 90 pitches 90 pitches.
I am not a pitching coach so I am asking. The bullpen can be fixed if the starters come back and just pitch decent…...
I don’t know myself, but Joe Morgan made a point of saying that they do not throw inside in Japan, and that Matsuzaka had to learn how to do it.
Haha! yes he wa shaking as we are the all powerful yankees! Peoplem tremble in our midst! It is our manifest destiny to always win!
Dude, you are what makes us yankees fans look like idiots to all Yankees haters!
Well now that Chase Wright is demoted we can discuss friday’s pitching for a whole week
As long as we are walking these grandstanding a**hats, we may as well just send them a message and drill em. I was incensed when I saw Jeter putting his arms around/holding up J.D. Drew after he stole second and latched onto him for balance. Jeter shoulda just moved to the side, you wanna steal the base, the eat some dirt.
Not a Clemens fan. But if I were him, I’d have a pretty good idea which team I’d play for.
I turned off the ESPN sound. What was tavares saying to dice k? He seems to be teaching about brush backs?
Pete, completely agree about Hughes. However, how come Joe removes pitchers after 5 innings now when they have the game somewhat under control? The bullpen is taxed as it is and when they do come in, they just blow the leads anyway leaving us at square one again. What gives?
Stuart hits the nail on the head.
And btw the issue isn’t the Yanks losing. I for one thought they should’ve given Hughes a taste last September, and should’ve had him in the squad coming out of Tampa this year.
The issue is readiness for the bigs. What’s he gonna learn pitching in a league where the Andy Phillips of the world dominate?
If he was on the Yanks now he’d be giving Moose and Pettite a run for 2nd best behind Wang.
Btw, for those who point to his relatively poor spring, notice that the hero of Yankee ST this year, Mr. Sardinha, is hitting all of .182 for Scranton now. ST means squat.
Chase Wright was sent back down? Source?
Stuart,
90 pitches in AAA and the Major Leagues are very different. 90 pitches in the majors might not be 6 innings, with better hitters to foul off tough pitches, and hitters with better discipline at the plate to lay off borderline pitches. So, there is a difference.
You know what fact is getting lost here: the fact that Carl Pavano screwed us. Can I sue him? Can Yankee fans file a class action? Could the Yankees sue him??
“And btw the issue isn’t the Yanks losing. I for one thought they should’ve given Hughes a taste last September”
Yankee fan in Chicago you lost all credibility with this comment
Bill according to WFAN Matsui was activiated and Wright was sent down. The Yankees have not announced who will be pitching on Friday
chris ny,
i think the red sox know pettitte didn’t mean to hit youkillis and i think the yankees know matsuzaka didn’t mean to put a second runner on twice. i’m not sure about that mariano pitch not being a message pitch from mariano . i remember it got a look from the hitter. mariano is clearly not afraid to go inside on hitters. his two seam fastball on righties is designed for that purpose.
all in all, i’ve come to the conclusion we’re, on this blog , more upset about the hit batters than the yankees or red sox.
that said,i do prefer an aggresive up and in strategy with pitchers. mussina is the one that drives me crazy. somehow he got it together last year, but before that i thought his soft approach was killing the team and “infecting” other pitches with his style.
maybe getting clemens is the answer to tip the scales towards a more aggresive approach.
Gayle – thanks! Thought they would have sent down Thompson to make room for Matsui, but this isn’t that big of a surprise after he threw BP last night to the Sox.
ILuvTheYanks:
Dude: The “shaking” comment was a little humor. I guess it went over your pointy little head. Maybe you could try counting to ten before you start ripping someone over one sentence in one post for being the reason people hate the Yankees. My own opinion is that posters who rip without a basis are the ones who make Yankee fans look like idiots.
I wonder if they’re keeping Thompson up because Damon’s been so “iffy” lately.
Honestly, the bullpen would not be blowing leads right now if it wasn’t so overworked. Remember, the Boston series exacerbated the problem but Yankee starters have been forcing the bullpen to be overworked since game 1. Yankee starters have pitched 7 innings twice this entire season, and lets not forget that we had two extra inning games with Oakland followed by a 6 inning performance against Cleveland by Igawa, a 5 inning performance by Chase Wright, and a 4.1 inning performance by Rasner. Then who came next? Oh yeah! The Boston series! The bullpen is great, just over used, don’t mistake bad performance for lack of talent. Give these guys fewer innings and they’ll do exactly what you need them to.
To me the more interesting question is when Wang comes off the DL tomorrow is it Thompson who goes down or someone like Bean. The way the bullpen has been worked it makes more sense to keep Bean up but then you also run into the dilema that has what i think hurt the team so far some pitchers get too many innings andothers dont get enough thus when they come in are stale and not sharp.
I’d rahter have Stevie Wonder backing up Damon than Thompson.
It’d be nice if Hughes was to come up and slip into the #5 spot, unfortunately the Yankees seem to have a ton of #5’s right now, if that. Leave him alone in AAA until they think hes ready. Felix wasnt that good his first 2 years so how much help can we expect him to be. Better then what we saw in games 2-3, probably. But why rush him.
If Damon joins posada banged up for a few games this wknd’s series could become quite daunting.
my point on Hughes is his upside is supposively there. Maning he has stuff that may transalte to not being a # 5 starter in the big leagues but a #1, so why not work 85 to 90 pitches for the Yanks that probably will give them as much length as the regular 4 or 5 will give them..
Wang is a 7 inning pitcher and that will help a ton.
Some of the comments on Hughes such as he will get hit in the head with a line drive are ludicrous he is 20 years old not 17 and pitched 180 or so innings last year and had a whip of like.70 or some other crazy #.. If he does well for the next few starts will that change any of the minds of the people who are against giving him a few games???
I assume they have a innings limit in mind for him and of course they should stick to it, regardless if those innings are in scranton or NY..
I rarely agree with Francesa, but props to him. You can intimidate anyone if you hit them enough up an in. Just test the freakin’ theory.
Thanks for the kind words Jeff.
Now perhaps you’d like to explain why it would have been a mistake, or frankly idiotic, as you imply, to have given him a few innings last September w/ the big club?
Randy, I did notice that look, it pi$$ed me off, some scrub (Lugo I think) giving Mariano a look…. Did you notice the fan in the stands behind them put his arms up like he was challenging Mariano to a fight, that was humorous.
Either way, Mo’ definitely isn’t afraid to go inside, I just remember at that moment not thinking it was intentional, he didn’t have his normal pinpoint control. But if he intended on going inside, it was more about establishing control of the inside of the plate, not sending a message about hitting batters.. more what throwing inside is supposed to be about, not about hitting guys and retaliating. But yes, Mo’ will own the plate, as he should, it’s his world.
Because the only reason you want him up here is because your a fan and you want to see him pitch its not because its the right baseball decision to make its because you just want to see him up already, or am I wrong?
Next time Mo closes a Red Sox game, you can bet your life that he will pitch inside and hard at these fools.
Just wanted to give a shout out to Dan from Mass and Yankeefaninwooosta.
As a fellow Massachsetts Yankee fan ( and Yankee season ticket holder) I can empathize with what you went through today. The self proclaimed “Idiots” have a short memory. They think they’d just won the World Series, not a 3 game set in April.
Peter, you do understand there is a difference between brushing someone back so he’s not so comfortable and hitting the guy, right?
Stuart:
We’re not going to agree on Hughes, but you are entitled to your opinion. The best way I can put this is that having Hughes start a game just for the hell of it is like Ferris Beuller taking his father’s Ferrari out. What could happen, right?
To me, I think you have to make a case why he should be given a start, how it clearly helps him and the big club, what the potential risks are and know that there is a presumption against doing it since it’s absolutely not necessary.
ortiz and manny don’t need to be plunked. But they DO need to be brushed back. They’re WAY too comfortable on top of the plate. They’re so relaxed they could take a nap out there if they wanted to. Every pitch that is high and inside doesn’t hit the batter. Your logic is stupid. Dice-K just doesn’t know how to pitch inside. That’s why hy hit them both. It’s something that Japanese pitchers don’t do.
And we are all avoiding the 800 pound gorilla in the living room.
Papelbon is now the numero uno closer, and Mariano isnt, and all the starters in the world wont change that.
i think the idea is to put the ball in a place where it’s the hitter’s choice if he gets hit or not. if he moves, the ball doesn’t hit him. if he doesn’t move, it hits him.
it’s how mariano controls the plate.it’s like what chris ny said about establishing control of the plate and mo usually controls it. all said and done i think mo’s way is the right way to control the plate. there’s no headhunter bad attitude. it’s just playing the game the right way with a no nonsense attitude.
Hughes starts on Thjursday against the Jays. Seriouisly.
Hey Pete,
Looks like the Yankees don’t agree with your plan, Franchise on Thursday. How bout before you attack the readers of your blog, you give us a chance to state our case.
Dudes, his nickname ain’t Franchise. It’s P-Huge.
I owe everybody an apology for crapping on the “give Phil Hughes a start” idea. I am eating crow as we speak (God – - crow tastes like crap).
I think it’s a very poor move on the Yankees part bringing in Hughes at this point. They need to focus on getting Wang and Pavano healthy and (hate to say it) signing Rocket. Moose is done, I think signing him may have been a mistake and I would rather have Karstens in the rotation than Igawa, he’s pretty bad. Pettitte is our Ace and he sure pitched like one Friday against the Sox. He’s the Man, always was, still is.
Leave Phil where he belongs, and that’s the minors for at least another season. I really don’t want to see another Prior or Liriano situation.
Also sorry, but I totally think the Sox need to be not hit, but pitched inside/brush backed. David Ortiz couldn’t be more relaxed at the plate than if he was on vacation(except for when Pettitte’s on the mound!) They just look too darn comfortable and it’s borderline irritating—while they hit our Captain year after year after year with no consequence. I just really am sick and tired of that thug approach the whole Boston team has taken for years, it started with Pedro and it continues on – I gotta believe that it’s been Helmet Head Varitek calling for it though.
Once again, I have not seen a Yankee pitcher dominate Ortiz the way Pettitte did Firday, since he signed with the Sox. No joke.
P.S. Nothing was more enjoyable than watching Curt Schilling shout expletives on the mound as ARod’s second HR sailed over his head into left center Friday night. LOL. That made the weekend salvageable.