Hard to manage a bullpen so overworked
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- April
- 24
Now I understand that you’re an angry torch-wielding mob when it comes to Joe Torre’s use of the bullpen.
But it’s worth noting that in 18 games, the starting pitchers have given the Yankees only 87.2 innings. That’s less than five innings a game.
Those other four innings have to be pitched by somebody. As Torre said tonight, “A day off is rare around here.”
Meanwhile, because of how the Yankees work, there are no throwaway games. Every game you can win is a game you have to chase. Because of A-Rod, the Yankees have been in almost every game.
I’ll give you Joe does some curious things with the bullpen at times. But it’s not his fault that the starters are either hurt or ineffective.
Anyway, here is some Joe Torre postgame audio for you still checking the blog:
That’s it for me. I’m due for a long sleep.
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on Tuesday, April 24th, 2007 at 12:24 am by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
Some of those innings are because Torre took his starter out too early. When someone sees an overused bullpen, the rational person would say, “OK, let’s try to get some more out of the starting rotation and not be so quick to go to the pen.” Not Torre! 100 pitches for Pettitte when he’s cruising? PEN! 4+ innings from Rasner when he’s given up 1 ER? PEN!
I’m not going to blame Torre for the bullpen, which as pitched terribly. Even if he managed it correctly, they still have been stinking up the joint.
I can kill Torre on obsessively pinch-running Giambi or allowing Melky to hit when there are runners on base.
Maybe if we Cashman had tried to put together a better, more dependable starting five over the offseason the bullpen wouldn’t have to carry so many innings. After all, it doesn’t take a genius to realize that four out of the five (Pettitte, Wang, Mussina and Pavano) had shown a propensity to get injured and/or spend appreciable time on the DL in recent seasons. Meanwhile, the fifth (Igawa) was a totally unproven commodity. Could Cashman seriously have thought that Karstens and Rasner were a suitable safety net?
Now, the Yanks are only reaping the effects of the things they didn’t recognize and/or didn’t fix long before the season started.
I understand the point you’re trying to make Pete, but how many times has Torre taken a pitcher out too early? When you get a solid outing, and that pitcher gets to 100 he yanks him, then the next day pitcher stinks, bullpen has to come in again. Torre still thinks this is 1996 or something. Maybe he’s drinking too much green tea.
P.S. – If anyone seriously believes Clemens would want to join this team/pitching staff after what has transpired so far this year…Well, there’s a nice bridge in Brooklyn I’d love to sell you! So, stop thinking he’s going to blow into town and be our savior…It’s just not going to happen.
When does it get to the point that one of the starters has to “take one for the team”? You have to give the bullpen rest sometime.
Peter,
What 40 man roster move are the Yanks going to do to put Hughes on the 40 man roster so they call him up on Thursday?
Also Melky will be fine he had over 400 at bats last year, he is 22 and in a slump.. He will be a good productive major leaguer…...........
Torre has made a few mistakes this year, but most of the problems are caused by plain old bad pitching. Again Farsnworth and Myers limitations put added burden on the other guys…...........
Screw Clemens who need a 44 yr old 5 inning pitcher.. I rather go down without him.
Where is he going? Boston does not really need him unless he is pitching out of the pen or playing 2b or CF…...
Moose, Pettite, Wang, and whoever with this offense should be good enough.
As far as Cashman in the offseason and starting pitching, clowns should he have signed Meche or Zito or Dice? Those contracts are beyond crazy even based on the Yanks… If you have not seen the Yanks are actually trying to lower payroll, ie no more RJ and Jaret Wirght etc…..
Rivera should have relieved Bruney. That was the true save opportunity.
stuart since sanchez had surgery he was put on the 60 day DL which means theres an opening on the 40 man roster thus not having to remove anyone
Apparently the people writing in this comment section know more about baseball than Peter does.
You’re absolutely right: Torre has a quick trigger in taking out his pitchers, and has done so this year, and he never lets a pitcher work out of his own jam late in the game. Sometimes a guy has to go six/seven, throwing 110 pitches or more, even if he doesn’t have good stuff and is getting hit around. Sometimes you take one for the team. It’s just the way it goes. As soon as the fifth inning rolls around, Torre gets on the phone and fires up the bullpen. A pitcher on the Yankees could be around 90 pitches in the sixth inning, cruising, having not had a single stressful inning, and thereafter no matter what if he lets on a baserunner he’s out of the game.
Peter, you do us a great service by writing on this blog, but you are really blinded by Torre’s personality to see his obvious flaws.
To blame Torre is the right thing to do.
I know it sounds like I’m repeating myself, but Joe Torre is hurting the Yankees more then you think. I have never watched games only to question the moves a manager makes. Now I understand the pitching hasn’t been good, but with the rookies in the rotation they are the ones that should be taking the beatings. Chase Wright, Jeff Karstens and whoever else –Rookies, besides maybe Hughes- comes to the Majors should always go 6 – 7 even if they give up five plus runs. The reason you do this is because the bull-pen doesn’t get overworked. The way the Yanks bull-pen was to start the season was amazing and now it’s pathetic. Message to Joe the pen is really tired! He is hurting this team a lot.
The current rotation looks like this:
Chien-Ming Wang
Andy Pettitte
Kei Igawa
Phil Hughes
Jeff Karstens
My prediction on the rotation come September
Roger Clemens
* I expect him to sign this month. I cant see him going elswhere and if he does the Yanks will make a trade. *
Chien-Ming Wang
Andy Pettitte
Mike Mussina
Phil Hughes
* If he pitches good Thursday I hope they don’t send him down like Cashman is saying. That will be the wrong move to make. Six innings from Hughes every fifth day would be nice. *
From what I hear Carl Pavano’s injury is much worse then what people are saying. Tightness in the elbow isn’t a good sign at all. Pavano may be heading down the Humberto Sanchez road. Good move holding on to him Cash!
When Mussina comes back, he’d better pitch into the seventh inning nearly every start. I really liked what I saw last season – where he yelled Torre back into the dugout because he wanted to finish his own game.
I’d like to see a lot more of that kind of determination this season. Maybe from Pettitte. “I’m cruising here, don’t baby me,” he should say to Torre when he comes to take him out after he lets a single go to start out the 7th. Pettitte’s been one of the most healthy pitchers of the last decade and there’s no reason to ‘save’ his arm because he somehow can’t pitch over 100 pitches. Rookies, obviously you don’t want to ruin their arms. But guys like Pettitte, Wang, Mussina, they’re conditioned, and can go for more than 100 pitches. Torre better slow up his trigger finger to save an already shot bullpen. How the hell can we even make it through May at this point, much less to October.
I kill Torre as much as anyone, but his managing has been a marginal cause of their problems given that three starters are on the DL. In other words, he hasn’t really caused them to lose games, but he does make it harder to win some games.
Stormy:
As always, feel free to leave if I’m so stupid.
Off the top of my head, the 18 games have included:
That’s six games right there that Torre had the decision made for him as to how far the starter could go.
Add in roughly six games when it was 40 degrees and guys never got warmed up.
But feel free to blame Torre for the weather, too.
Beyond all that, anybody with an ounce of baseball knowledge understands that it’s very difficult to extend starters in April. Guys don’t have their arm strength yet.
Add it all up and it equals an overworked bullpen for a variety of factors, only a percentage of which involve a decision by Torre.
But don’t let cold hard facts stand in the way.
In a way, I hope he does leave or get fired. You deserve to see what it’s like when he’s not there managing a team and a situation that is virtually impossible to manage.
He brings valuable relievers into games where they do not need to be. This renders them ineffective when they’re actually needed to hold a one or two run lead. Why did Igawa get the hook so early? He had no problem leaving Randy Johnson in to take a beating so why not Igawa? It’s stupid.
Talking about Wang, today one of the Taiwanese printed media had post an interview with Wang..
The main concept of the story is “Please don’t call me ACE, I didn’t feel comfortable with been called ACE…”
Actually, from Spring Training, Wang had said it, he’s not ACE, there are other talent pitchers in the staff..
In this article today, Wang said, “I’m not that kind of pitcher who take the mound and won that game every time”, “I’m not that talented as Roger Clemens or MO” , “I AM NOT AN ACE”
“NO.1 in the rotation, it just an order (a sequence), it doesn’t mean anything else ”
“NO.1 starter might mean somthing, that’s coaching staff’s expectation on me, but well prepared for the start, that’s the real NO.1” (thing to do),in other words,”if you are not ready for it, then that just a 「titleã€?”, “having a title (without good performance), so what(it’s meaningless)”
To Wang, “the No.1 Starter” doesn’t equal to “the ACE”
When people call him ACE, he felt that”strange, I’m not an ACE ”
The article is on
http://tinyurl.com/3b7bmm
Pete, very well said. Torre’s options have been slim to none in many games thus far. His hand is just being forced by injuries and a lack of innings from the rotation. People will miss Torre more then they think when/if he is gone.
“In a way, I hope he does leave or get fired. You deserve to see what it’s like when he’s not there managing a team and a situation that is virtually impossible to manage.”
Torre won’t leave. He has a great job. Oh, I know, “the pressure,” but Joe very much likes the attention, the money, and rubbing elbows with celebrities. Who wouldn’t?
I’m pretty sure any ML-level manager could have led us to being swept at Boston. Hell, I could get us swept in Boston. The question is whether or not there are other managers out there than can take a bad situation and not make it worse, and lead the team through rough stretches with minimal damage. You seem to think not, but I would disagree. Torre is not the best manager in the world. What did Joe do in St. Louis before coming to the Yankees? I can’t blame him for the roster he’s given, but I’m not going to give him credit for the roster, either. The Yankees are and have been a powerhouse, and that’s why he reaches the playoffs every year. The Yankees reached the playoffs before he arrived, and if there wasn’t a strike they would have made in in 1994, too. If Joe is so brilliant, he should have been able to guide St. Louis to at least one postseason appearance.
I imagine it will be a long time before any of us is proven right or wrong on this matter. However, the day Torre is gone and a new manager comes and leads the team out of the playoffs, I will come back here and eat my hat. It’s a risk I’m willing to take.
Thanks for your input, Pete. Finally, an ounce of sanity has hit the comments section.
Just curious, is Kyle Farnsworth still with the team? I mean is there any reason Torre won’t use him in ANY situation anymore?
Good LORD, Peter, you are the biggest baby when you get criticized. If you’re going to put your thoughts online, then prepare for people to disagree with them.
I didn’t know this forum was only for people who agree with you.
Torre tends to take his starters out too soon. He always does and he always will. Torre always abuses his bullpen. He always does and he always will (Mo pitched 75 innings last year and missed a month—think about that). Torre always falls in love with one bullpen guy and runs him into the ground. He always does and he always will. Torre always brings his top-tier bullpen guys into games with big leads. HE ALWAYS DOES AND HE ALWAYS WILL.
Trust me, I would not shed a tear to see him go. If I could snap my fingers, I would make it happen. I’ve seen how he manages his team for ten years. And I’ve definitely seen enough of it.
You might want to ask yourself exactly how objective you are when you never, no matter the subject, disagree with Torre.
Everything is not his fault, but he’s also not infallible—but you seem to think he is.
You know, it’s not the worst thing in the world that the Yankees appear headed for a mediocre year. I don’t need any distractions when I study for the Bar exam.
That being said, jeeze. I read a lot about this team and it seemed like there was a non-chalance about the team in both spring training that has carried over into the first part of the season, perhaps with the exception of A-Rod. The Yankees of 2007 remind me of the last few pre-lockout Rangers hockey teams – older stars, guys from championships long gone, and the holes filled by waiver fodder. Haven’t we learned that that strategy nearly always results in passionless play and dissapointing results? No one was happier than I when Cashman started to tear it down; I’m hoping it continues. Not enough pitching, not enough fielding, not enough heart. And throwing Roger Clemens into the mix seems like more of the same.
i am amazed at the people who think they know more baseball than a guy who has been in the game—the professional game—for nearly 50 years.
when the yankees turn this thing around, and they will, i hope torre’s critics have the guts to tell us they might have jumped to conclusions a little early in this season.
Peter – he often takes the starters out too so (because as you said he treats every game like it’s do or die) prematurely beginning the endless chain of bullpen activity. There are times when it’s worth it to trade maybe 2 runs given up for 2 outs. The games against Cleveland last week were a classic example. On Friday Pettitte outpitched Schilling, yet went .2 less innings.
Hi Peter,
Joe Torre is scared of losing his job this year—he almost lost it last year, and probably should have. As the Yankee Manager, it is his responsibility to use his players to win games. Sounds simple, but it isn’t. He’s got Alex Rodriguez still hogging the spotlight, now hitting meaningless home runs and starting pitchers who barely get out of the early innings before crying ‘help’.
Too bad they let El Duque go to the Mets where he is now setting an example of pitchers who can pitch complete games.
The Yankees are playing scared and any athlete will tell you that is not the way to win.
According to kerouac, we have no right to critique anyone who has MLB experience. That’s it then, shut down all the baseball blogs. Case closed.
This has been a hilarious read.
The Yankees are played scared? What rubbish!
Torre is taking out everyone too early. People have gotta take one for the team. The moment we are 4 runs down with 4 innings to go and Torre says to a starter ‘take one for the team’ there will be uproar that we gave up on a game! We’ve been in pretty much every game this, every single game. It has been cold, starters have left early with injuries, starters have been on rehab appointments with a strict pitch limit, it has been an absolute mare and whilst there are times he does make mistakes, its not half as often as most of you seem to believe.
Look at the bigger picture – the Yankees offense is as great as advertised. When the rotation gets healthy it’ll be ok to good and the BP will get some rest but at the moment the starters aren’t allowing them that rest.
If Wang gets smacked about tonight in his first start of the season – do you want him to take one for the team and ruin his shoulder?
Teams without drive or heart or playing scared don’t score 8 runs.
I think Kei Igawa needs to be in Scranton. He is probably a very talented athlete (the Yankees did scout him in Japan) who is having a really difficult time making the necessary adjustments to American baseball. The Yankees cannot afford to have him work this out in the majors in games that count. It was a risk worth taking if he was the #5 starter and the 1, 2, 3 and 4 starters were doing the jobs expected of them. Since they are not, allowing Igawa the luxury of learning on the job is no longer in the team’s best interest.
It’s too bad that A-Rod’s April can’t be fully ejoyed and appreciated. It really goes to the heart of what Jeter often says, that personal accomplishments are great, but not as great as winning as a team. I hope all this doesn’t go to waste, and I really hope the bubble doesn’t burst for a long time for Alex. I did notice Cano is starting to click and also Giambi (though after last night, can anyone still question why Torre pinch runs for this guy—he cost the team at least one run). Jeter’s doing okay, but only okay. Damon’s still not in a routine yet, and I’m hoping Posada’s sore thumb doesn’t slow him down too much. In sum, their offense is not the problem at all, and it’s not even 100%.
I, too, wish Torre would sometimes keep the starters in longer, but I can understand that he’s in a position most managers are not in—a directive that he win every game. No game is a throwaway. And since one of the Yankees’ strengths is come-from-behind wins (6 of 8 wins this season so far, for example), he is not wrong to try to keep games in hand. And I can just see the posts if he was keeping pitchers in too long!
That being said, it might be early enough in the season to do just that—allow a couple of games to get away, just to get the innings from the starters to get the bullpen some rest. And as far as who Torre brings in when, even though it looks haphazard to us, don’t you think he’s still trying to do match-ups, at least a little? I don’t think you should just throw any pitcher out there, there should be some thought about who goes in in what situation.
Annie Savoy—
Meaningless homeruns???? Come on! There is no such thing as a meaningless run. None whatsoever. You can never score enough runs, whether you’re ahead or behind.
Giambi has a 10 game hitting streak, he’s been clicking for a while.
And yes the one time he should have put in a pinch runner for Giambi, Torre didn’t.
He can’t do anything right.
I am putting down my Official MLB Angry Mob Torch ($49.99 at Modell’s) for a second to share this thought.
Injuries are the equalizer in baseball and when they take out key players it throws off your “best case” plans as well as your contingency plans. There is no way Cashman could have foreseen this simultaneous pitching staff injury catastrophe and no way to justify the cost of stashing three MLB ready starters in Scranton just in case. If Wang, Pettitte, Moose and Pavano are healthy, Igawa has less pressure to perform and the Yankees have many options to replace a faltering 5th starter. We roll along with that offense winning lots of games.
Igawa is thrust into the fan expectation slot for a third starter. Karstens, Wright and Rasner are no more than 5th starters or worse, but were fan-expected to perform far beyond their ceilings. The bullpen winds up putting in way too many innings, cannot hold leads and we lose. Worse, now the bullpen has to be close to a breaking point where someone goes down out there. Even if you assume that Joe went to the pen too early a couple of times, he’s guilty of a small percentage of the bullpen abuse. Losing three supposedly reliable MLB arms at the same time is the cause of this problem.
We are lucky to be 8-10.
The future is still bright, the turnaround starts tonight with Wang. This is a great time to be a Yankee fan, but maybe not for fans who can’t take the pressure. Everyone just relax, the Yankees know what they’re doing the future is bright. Have a great day everyone!
Its easy to manage when you have 4 front line starters Mo, Jeff Nelson and Mike Stanton in their prime. Now that Joe actually has to manage the pitching staff we know exactly what kind of manager he is, not a very good one.
The headlines were correct 11 years ago when he was hired “cluesless Joe”. The teams of the late 90’s were so good, that not even Joe Torre could screw it up.
Meaningless homeruns? Can you imagine what our record would be if Arod wasn’t hitting those meaningless homeruns?
Annie Savoy
Point to the A-Rod HR that has been meaningless, as there really haven’t been any. Unless you mean the ones in the games where the rest of the team don’t take advantage of them. Without A-Rod the Yankees would be in even more trouble. No player’s ever done what A-Rod’s doing, spotlight’s all his, and rightfully so.
If you’re reacting to the D-Ray homers:
The first shot last night put them ahead, the 2nd shot made it close. The D-Ray bullpen sucks big time, a comeback was certainly plausible. Giambi, Matsui, Posada and Cano are more than capable of scoring 2 more runs with 2 outs.
Question for Pete A: In the 8th inning when Cano loaded the bases Torre pinch hit for Phelps with Damon. Why not let Phelps bat and let Damon hit for Melky?
[quote]Yes[/quote]
[code]Test[/code]
the gator is now on the hot seat .
I agree that Melky will be fine, but I think he should figure it out in Scranton. It can’t hurt to give KT a shot while Damon is nursing his various ailments. But as we saw tonight, it can and does hurt to still be giving Melky ABs with RISP.
If you are not loving the Yankees perhaps you should be loving something else.
OK OK OK. Maybe something to calm people down a bit. My girlfriend and I were joking about this the other night. We know Jeter enjoys the nightlife as do other of the Yankees. So we thought…what do the Yankee starters drink while partying? Here’s just my take on it. Let’s see what you think:
Minky – Heiniken
Cano – Rum and Coke
Jeter – Martinis
A-Rod – White Wine
Giambi – Budweiser or Jack Daniels on the rocks
Posada – Long Island Ice Teas
Abreu – Tequila
Matsui – Sapporo or Tsingao
Damon – Bourbon
Mussina – Red Wine
Wang – Amstel Light
Pavano – White Whine Spritzers (that’s my girlfriend’s idea…I say Coors Light)
Igawa – Sake
Pettite – Scotch
What do you guys think?
Off topic, but important question… looking for some opinions on seats at the Stadium – I can either get Main Box MVP behind the dugout, around rows C or D; or Field Box around 67/69… Obviously the field box seats are closer to the field, but they’re out of the infield. I’ve sat field box behind the dugout, and out in right field (felt too far out), but never the ones right past first base.
any opinions? Thanks!
Ant928, no way Jeter drinks Martinis. Red bull and vodka, breakfast of champions.
A-Rod, that’s a tough one. I doubt he’s so girly to go out drinking and get white wine. But he also tries to be sophisticated and is kinda awkward socially from what I’ve read/heard…. So maybe he’d try and pull off Scotch or something, but I’d also wonder if he even drinks at all.
and Pavano – c’mon, how could you miss this one——SHIRELY TEMPLE.
Late to this party, but well put Peter.
Pettitte is too much of a simple/non-flashy guy for scotch, I’d guess a Miller Lite, maybe Captain ‘n coke.
Last night they should have let Kei Igawa throw about 125 pitches, Wang has to be on a tight pitch count so the pen is going to be up and working early if he has any trouble today. Phil Hughes is only throwing 90 pitches tops on Thursday. Given the state of the staff, I agree with Peter that Torre has no choice but to keep going to these guys. Having said that this isn’t the time to bury Farnwsworth and kill Proctor and Vizcano by going to them everynight. Sad state of affairs
The Yankees are 8-10 and with Arod they are 6-12 or a ton worse.
“He’s got Alex Rodriguez still hogging the spotlight, now hitting meaningless home runs”
Annie Savoy:
You are pathetic. Run along and find a message board of spiteful sorority girls to post on. That seems to be more your speed.
“Losing three supposedly reliable MLB arms at the same time is the cause of this problem.
We are lucky to be 8-10.”
murphydog-
as you might have figured out, i don’t love sabermetrics or bill james ,but the exWL( a bill james stat) that espn does on it’s expanded standings has the yankees at 11-7.
they have a 1-5 record in one run games. the team era (even after last night) is 4.67 while last year it was 4..41. that’s only a quarter of a run difference per game.
so my conclusion, despite the hysteria, is that the yankees have run into a streak of bad luck. with the runs they have given up and the runs they have scored they should have a better record. you don’t have to be bill james to figure that one out. a team with more runs scored than runs given up should have a winning record. the bigger the gap of runs scored over runs given up ,the more wins.
so it’s not really as bad as it looks, and like you said the yankees have been without three starters.
i think the yankees are unlucky to be 8-10. 11-7 seems about right.
Peter,
I can see your point in this discussion.
Here are my points with regard to Joe Torre and the responsibility he shares in the pitching mess that is now in front of him:
1. Who is in charge of getting the pitchers ready to start the season? I would imagine the answer to that are a combination of the coaching staff and the manager. As the on field CEO, the manager has to share in the blame of a pitching staff not being ready to start the season. Injuries? Every year Yankee pitchers come up lame. Every year we hear, “they have to work their way into the season”. As the on field CEO, Joe Torre has to take the hit for the pitching ineffectiveness. Can’t just take the bows when things go right. I am just waiting for someone to write that he is “responsible” for ARod’s great start. That’s when I know Pete that some of your brethren will have gone over to, “the dark side”, since we all know how ARod feels about Joe Torre.
2. His quick hook. They have played 18 games thus far and I can pick out at least 30% of those games he had a VERY quick hook when it came to pulling the starter. That has contributed to the overworking of the bullpen as much as the starter ineffectiveness or the injuries. Its almost as if he forgets who pitched the night before in some games. He has pretty much kept Farnsworth drydocked the past week while overworking Proctor and Vizcaino to the point of ineffectiveness. Joe Girardi had a very interesting stat during last night’s game. Scott Proctor is only the 10th player in major league HISTORY to pitch in 12 of his team’s first 18 games. That is just insane and, IMO, shows just how little he understands how to use a bullpen. Its also more proof (given previous pitching injuries) that he hurts pitchers as much as any manager in the game. Despite what they say publicly, I am beginning to believe they don’t chart bullpen pitchers at all. They just throw them out there and hope their arms don’t fall off. Its just awful to watch how he abuses arms out there.
3. To that end, most of the guys in the bullpen are not effective in their second inning of work. Especially true for Brian Bruney. The two occassions Bruney got hit this year (last night being one of them) both came in his second inning of work. Again, his lack of understanding the effectiveness of his own pitchers and how to get the most out of them. That’s Torre’s responsibility as a manager and, IMO, again evidence of his ineffectiveness in the position.
He’s a great man. Overall, history will look kindly (as it should) at his tenure as Yankee Manager. Yet, each day, it becomes clearer and clearer a change has to be made.
Every team in baseball has injuries. Look at the Cardinals last year. Their pitching staff was decimated during the season and post-season, Scott Rolen also played hurt all year. Yet, Tony LaRussa found a way to mix and match and win games.
You just don’t see that with the Yankees. It seems everything has to perfect for Torre’s teams to win these days. If they don’t slug and make the margin of victory so large even Torre can’t mess it up, they win. Close games? No chance. They are 1-5 in one run games this yr and we all have seen why.
I am of the school that after a certain period of time, players either tune out a manager (or coach) or just get too comfortable with him. That becomes a detriment to the team. One could make the argument its been that way for awhile with the Yankees, but their overall talent base is so large, they overcome this issue. That is, until the post-season, when the talent level is more equal, requiring more work by the manager and we have seen those results since 2004.
Yes, there have been an inordinate amount of injuries. However, there has been an equal, if not more, number of puzzling, if not downright wrong, moves made by Joe Torre during this season that has put this team is a very tough situation going forth.
Even if the injured return and are effective, both big question marks at this point, the big question now is, “Is it possible the bullpen is shot for the season due to Torre overworking them”?
At this point, none of us know the answer to that question.
That is quite disconcerning.
This is not calling “fire” in a crowded room. No manager in the sport is given more weapons than Joe Torre. At some point, the in game mistakes, misuse of a pitching staff and nights (at least 5 of them in only the first 18 games) when the team looks downright dead, accountability has to take place.
The manager is accountable for these issues and I don’t care how many World Series he has won, it doesn’t mean he is the right guy for THIS team. He isn’t, IMO.
If they are going to try and mainstream younger players into the mix, which is clear that’s what Cashman wants to do, they can’t do it with Joe Torre as manager. Its too risky given his history with pitchers.
They would be much better off making the change now, bringing Girardi in, and also moving Kerrigan to pitching coach (the inexperience in the two most important positions on the coaching staff (pitching and bench) is another issue for another day) and going forward.
They will take a two week PR hit from media members who believe Torre, “got a raw deal”.
However, when people look at the big picture, 4 WS, a guaranteed trip to the Hall of Fame, over $75 million dollars earned, one will look back and say the relationship between Joe Torre and the Yankees worked well for BOTH parties. Its just time to end it and the sooner the better if they have any hopes of salvaging this season.
I just don’t understand the argument that goes, “What is Torre supposed to do? The starters aren’t giving him innings!”
If your starters were giving you 7, of course it would be easy. That’s pretty much the formula the team used in the championship years. Well, it isn’t that time. Instead, we now NEED a manager who can handle a bullpen and guide the team through troubled times. If we just accept that when the going get’s tough, the need to manage the bullpen get’s going, then why have a manager?
It’s easy to manage when you have Cone, Clemens, Wells, Pettitte, El Duque, etc. givng you 7 innings leading into Mo, Stanton, Nelson and Mendoza. What’s difficult is maintaining the staff when things are rough. This where Joe has to earn his $6 million, and he is not.
Finally, I’ve asked this before, but what excuse do we give Joe for using two innings of Bruney and Proctor in the Cleveland blowouts? Maybe if they were rested, they could have pitched Friday. Then, with a win on the books, Torre could have pulled back on Saturday, allowing the main guys to pitch Sunday, which would have further alleviated the strain yesterday. You see, all of this mismanagement is interconnected. You simply can’t excuse Joe because the starters aren’t giving him innings. He CAN and SHOULD be able to mitigate against some of the starting staff’s ineptitude.
What they need even if a pitcher gives 5 innings is a couple of blowouts. They need that pitcher to hold a team to less than 2 runs.
For the record, last night was the first game this year the Yankees didn’t win when ARod homers.
So much for the “meaningless” home runs” he hits.
Take ARod off this team, they are 1-17. Next year, when those who want him gone get their wish, they will find out what’s life will be like without him. It won’t be pretty.
Well said SJ44…we sent Bernie packing when his skills had declined. Why shouldn’t Joe be subject to the same treatment. He had a great run and was the right man for the job at a hsitoric time in the team’s history. Now, however, it seems as if the game and team have passed him by…Girardi is the perfect guy to take over, but if the Yankees wait too long, he’ll be working somewhere else soon.
These guys want to fire Joe after 15 games. Thats funny.
Relax. Its not even May yet.
Jake…they had two blowouts against Cleveland and Joe still used Bruney and Proctor in those games. Moves like that undermine the “blame the starters” defense.
SJ44…Arod homered on Friday and they lost to Boston.
SJ44 makes a ton of great points.
Peter, the flaw in your argument is that the tough times (due to starter ineffectiveness and an increased need for quality relief) are exactly when good managing becomes most important.
If the rotation were healthy and routinely giving us 7 inning starts, then you or I could manage the pen just fine. Having the knowledge and skill to keep the pen effective when starting pitchers don’t go deep into games is what supposedly separates Torre from the fans.
I don’t think you’re saying that the starters have put Torre in an impossible situation. I think you’re saying he is being faced with a big challenge. The question should be, is he up for it?
SJ44
You make some very good points. I would only argue of your assessment of Tony LaRussa last season. His team hobbled into the playoffs. A hot streak at the right time gave them the World Series. As for handling pitchers, well, they seemed to have gotten something out of Jeff Weaver, but that also appears to have been a “hot at the right time” thing because Weaver sure looks nothing like that now, and truth be told, except for his last few starts for the Cardinals, wasn’t anywhere near his playoff performance(s).
I don’t know if firing Joe Torre is the right thing or not. I don’t doubt that Girardi would be able to handle the younger players and the pitching staff. I’m not sure how he would handle the veterans, some of whom he’s played with. I don’t know of anyone else out there who would be a better alternative. I would say that I doubt the Yankees will make any drastic changes right now, but I was POSITIVE they wouldn’t bring up Phil Hughes yet, either.
Jeremy – Do you have Philadelphia in mind for Girardi?
Jake…good idea. Let’s ignore the obvious problems and then just hope they turn it around. Unfortunately, I am actually foolish enough to CARE about whether the team wins or loses, so I don’t have the same wait and see luxury.
Looks like William beat me to the same argument and said it better.
Another thought. Peter, you once said that the Yankees should trade ARod because he’s not a good fit with the team. But ARod has shown an ability to adapt in both his style of play (losing weight, improving his offense and defense) and media persona (something you have criticized before). Torre, as Stormy said, follows the same managing strategies year after year whether they work or not. He is incapable of changing his approach to the game, no matter how much the game itself changes.
Why should Torre get a pass from criticism?
I actually wanted to see Phelp with the base loaded in the 8th instead of Damon. He will be the sleeper this year and will take the first base role once he proves he can play defensively too.
He will probably play tonight against the lefty Kazmir
Stormy and William makes some good points, Peter. You need to get beyond your personal admiration for Joe Torre and rank him objectively as a manager. Many teams have suffered injuries and ineffectiveness to their starting staffs and still managed to hold relief innings to a reasonable total. The 2006 Twins suffered much of the same fate that the Yanks are having and won the AL Central.
I’m sure Torre’s weakness in managing a pitching staff is recognized by much more than this Blog contains, including several sportswriters.
The statement “Losing three MLB at the same time” can buy you a little forgiveness, but not a lot. Age and health history must be taken into account on any pitching staff.
It takes little imagination to figure that Pettite, Mussina and Pavano were not going to be “innings eaters” in 2007.
Two of the games that NY should’ve won this Season had more to do with NOT using the bullpen correctly – Mo Rivera. Its easy to say Mo hasn’t pitched in 4 days because there were no save opportunties. Nonsense! A guy like Mo needs to build arm strength and command Early in the Season through regular work. Rest him 4-5 days in September when things are settled.
Torre gets a D- as a manager this Year, even with the injuries! When you score 7 runs, spend $197 Mil on your Roster, you gotta win those games. With smarter pitching management I can see NY winning 3 or 4 of those.
SJ44,
I think you got it confused the Yankees are 0-6 when he does not homer but they have lost some games when he does homer.
hey, i don’t mind people criticizing what the yankees are doing. second-guessing is what bothers me. a manager makes a move and when it backfires, the backseat drivers start shouting their opinions from the internet.
try this scenario: wang pitches into the sixth inning tonight. he has reached his limit. yanks lead 4-2 with two runners on, two outs, and baldelli at the plate. who would you bring in? that’s a first guess. there’s a world of difference.
“They would be much better off making the change now, bringing Girardi in, and also moving Kerrigan to pitching coach”
the following comment from another blog sums up the consensus on kerrigan that he does not have the people skills to be a yankee pitching coach:
“Kerrigan’a major problem is that he is a comsummate micromanager, and that does not work with experienced pitchers. He had success with young pitchers, and with converting Lowe from a closer to a starter, but his constant need to “tinker” with deliveries tended to alienate experienced pitchers. I cannot see him as pitching coach with guys like Mussina and… He’d drive them crazy.”
my own personal opinion was that he was hired by cashman to be a snake in the grass and report back to him.
if and when girardi becomes the manager, he should be allowed to choose his pitching coach.
TGWIB !
(Thank God Wang Is Back !)
Kerouac…read the blog…there’s lots of first guessing.
Having said that, evaluation is not prognostication. Torre is the manager and he should be judged on the decision he does make. The question you asked is a difficult one and it depends on a number of different variables. Torre’s job is to process all of the factors and make a decision. Just because you don’t know the answer, doesn’t mean he shouldn’t.
At this point, just about every reliever is over worked. Your question is asking us to now workout a solution from Torre’ mess. Instread, I’d like to turn the tables a bit and say if Torre had managed the bullpen better, there’d be several candidates to bring into the situation you described. Instead, there is none. You can’t let Torre off the hook because he is burning in the fire he started.
I stand corrected on the ARod HR stat.
I think one big problem the Yankees have is, at times, they are a victim of their own success. By that I mean, they live in the past way too much.
All the “Bring Bernie back” talk for example. Bernie is no longer a fit for this team. Its not Old Timers Day. He is no longer an everyday player. You have to move on.
Same goes for Joe Torre. Fact is, he hasn’t been the same manager since Zimmer left his side. That has shown itself in the post-season and in a ton of regular season, non-blowout games.
I am more than willing to sacrifice (if you can even call it that) this season, change managers, extend ARod, play younger guys at certain spots, if that will lead to another successful run.
I am not willing to keep the status quo, watch the entire team get old at the same time, and injure a few prized arms in the process chasing a title with a team that’s too flawed to compete.
If you look back on Yankee history, that’s when they have gotten themselves into trouble and suffered some long draughts.
I’d hate to see it happen here because the future, if handled correctly, is bright.
The present? Not so bright without changes, April or not.
what a bunch of babies…..Quit crying that Torre is screwing up the Pen. It is called having NO STAFF!! Blame your boy Cashman. WOuld have liked to see the Unit tonight. I bet he pitched more then 4 innings. With SaNCHEZ gone for the next yr and 1/2 and Vizcaino looking like the worst reliever in baseball, seems Casman’s trades arent looking so good right now. Unit should still be a Yankee and they should have given T Lilly the $$$ instead of this soon to be lefty specialist Igawa. Cashman better hope Whaelan, Claggett or Olendorf turns out to be useful in someway.
but please dont blame Joe when he has no staff
do your home work kids..
i’m not going to get into the pitching situation, but pinch hitting Phelps for Damon then letting Melky hit with the bases loaded was completely idiotic and inexcusable last night. that was one of the dumbest things i’ve seen a manager do in years.
and while we’re on it, why on earth is melky leading off? why would you intentionally give the worst hitter in the lineup the most ABs?
riddle me that.
Nud,
Randy hasn’t even thrown one pitch, let alone give us innings!
Sheffield is batting 1.50 with one HR and Jaret Wright is 0-2 with a 6 ERA and is now injured.
Anything is better than these 3 guys at this point and we dumped a lot of salary and bad personalities.
“He’s got Alex Rodriguez still hogging the spotlight, now hitting meaningless home runs and starting pitchers who barely get out of the early innings before crying ‘help’.
Too bad they let El Duque go to the Mets where he is now setting an example of pitchers who can pitch complete games.”
this is a joke, right? you know absolutely nothing about baseball and everytime you post something you completely embarrass yourself and this blog. seriously, please stop posting this inane drivel.
nud…thanks for adding nothing to the debate besides a complete inability to understand the issues at play.
A-Rod is hitting meaningless HR’s? Those HR’s have either won us the games we’ve won or damn near won us the game. Get your head out of your ass.
I suspect Mussina would be drinking Perrier, but I know Matsui would be drinking Asahi Super Dry.
according to WPA, A-Rod has been almost twice as “clutch” as the second highest ranked player in MLB. he is so far past anyone else right now that calling his HRs meaningless is simply laughable.
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=0&season=2007
Steve Philips also pointed out that Arod’s defense is a lot better especially on pop ups.
In addition is agressive baserunning is also superb. Last nights he went from 1st to 3rd on a hit twice.
nud:
Have you ever pitched? Do you figure that pitching 4 out of 5 days can affect your energy and command? Can you imagine that a closer needs regular work early to be effective – not sit and rot on the bench 4-5 days while your other bullpen partners are over extended?
Last season the top three relievers in number of appearances were NY Yankees. So far in 2007, the Yankee bullpen is projected to log over 610 innings. Look at the September performances of guys like Tom Gordon, Paul Quantrill, Tanyon Sturtze, Ron Villone. Ring a bell?
guys, ladies, you should know better than to even read anything Annie posts… baseless, pointless, without a logical or coherent thought. Just skip over them.
Though, I will say, this is the first I’ve ever seen her post without mentioning #51, good job Annie. Guess you just replaced that with the mention of another former Yankee who is no longer great. El Duque can’t stay healthy and he makes our current pitchers look like ironmen.
Andy doesn’t drink, at least that’s what they said in one of those Pettitte and Clemens are best friends forever articles.
Upton looked shocked the 2nd time Alex was going for third, if only Giambi could run like that.
Annie, seriously, whenever you feel the need to post, squelch it. Us female fans have to fight too hard to be given credibility sometimes. I’m gonna need you to stop setting the movement back 30 years. Even though stupidity is not gender biased.
At least Giambi ran out that double last night. But later on, when he didn’t run, my husband commented that he should have gone over to third, but I joked that he’d done his running for the night.
That doesn’t surprise me, “good Christian boy” and all…
Anyone know who’s pitching this weekend? I’m assuming based on a 5-day schedule Igawa Saturday (uh oh), Wang Sunday? Since Hughes is pitching Thursday, Karstens bumped to Friday?
Chris NY, yep.
I just think it’s funny that a man who brought us four championships in five years now has to be run off in the middle of April because three starters – one of which has spent the last two years on the DL – have gotten injured. Oh, wait… it wasn’t just starters. It was the position players, too (Damon, Matsui, Posada, Nieves).
we have had the worst luck in injuries right now… hopefully, in the karma-esque balance of these things… it means that we’re getting them out of the way now, so we don’t have to deal with them come August/September. (Maybe with the exception of Pavano. I close to being officially off that train.)
I know this was said a while ago here, but I just wanted to say: in a market where pitchers are richer than the cream of the crop… Cash held on to Carly to see if he materialized into something. Was it a risk? Sure it was. I’m sure he’s made one or two of those in his lifetime, as a professional baseball general manager.
nevertheless… not sure this is Torre’s fault. Or Gator’s. Or even the conditioning coach’s… although, I’m sure he’ll take the fall for it if that ax does fall. We had an unusually cold start to the spring, and most of our guys are veterans who don’t have 20-year old bodies anymore and are playing a game in which they’re subject to injury.
personally, I don’t think Girardi will get the results here that he had last year with the Marlins. He had kids who he could groom, who would listen to him and apply his reasoning and approaches… here, he’ll have seasoned players who have their own routines, their own methods. Not to mention that some of these players will have played WITH him. I don’t think that sets the tone in the clubhouse for success. Maybe I’m wrong; it’s happened before, once or twice.
I’ll miss Joe when he’s gone. I think we all will. If not, we should.
i whine about torre a lot while watching games and screaming at my tv from the couch. but i honestly don’t think there’s a better option out there. we put his flaws under a microscope, but i’d bet if anyone else were brought in to do his job, we might have a few more things to put under that microscope.
Girardi is not the answer. You can say he brought a team into playoff contention that wasn’t supposed to be anywhere near it, but in all reality, that team was (and is) pretty talented and underrated. and supposedly he mishandled pitching as well (josh johnson).
so does anyone need 2 tickets to tonight’s SWB game?
sammy,
I don’t think anyone is saying it’s Torre fault that starting pitching is a mess. What I’m saying, at least, is that Torre could do a better job mitigating the team’s pitching problems by giving starters a longer leash in borderline situations, giving individual relievers higher per-game workloads rather than having several different relievers pitch in the same game, and varying the relievers he inserts into games based on their workloads and the score, rather than sticking to inflexible, dogmatic patterns.
Torre managed the Yankees to four World Series in five years, and would have had a fifth in 2001 if Rivera hadn’t blown game 7. In none of those WS years was Torre faced with the pitching problems he’s dealing with now. So the question is, can he handle these particular problems? Notwithstanding all the good things he did in past seasons, I don’t think he can.
I’ll say this, SJ44 brings up some good points, Peter.
Would love for you to potentially address those, if you have a chance.
“Cash held on to Carly to see if he materialized into something. Was it a risk? Sure it was. I’m sure he’s made one or two of those in his lifetime, as a professional baseball general manager.”
if cashman was going to trade Pavano this off-season he was going to have to eat a ton of salary and get little back in return.
that type of trade just doesn’t make any sense for the Yankees.
William:
You wrote: I just don’t understand the argument that goes, “What is Torre supposed to do? The starters aren’t giving him innings!�
OK, so maybe it’s not that the starters aren’t giving him innings, it’s Joe’s bullpen management. I am willing to be open minded. But let’s be sure we are comparing apples to apples. The question then is:
Who are the better bullpen managers in the scenario where, due to simultaneous injuries, they have a rotation with one solid MLB starter, one rookie from Japan and three shaky replacement starters, one of which is from Double A?
Note: Before anybody trots out LaRussa, what was his record last year? And that was in the notoriously no-pop NL.
wow magic # like 140 for the sux.. the inmates are in full panic 18 games into the season.
go back and read the post they are comical..
the Yanks will be fine….
A-Rod got jipped on being named AL co-player of the week.
Or not being named AL co-player of the week, rather.
You mean, again? He was co-player with Vlad last week, right?
What? Who was player of the week, if not ARod?
Jeremy – understood. I guess my only retort would be two-fold:
1) his starters had thrown for a considerable amount of pitches in all close games. I use Andy last Friday; his pitch count, when he came out, was 100 pitches. Sure, it was in the 7th inning with him up 6-2. But it was against a potent offense in the Red Sox, who could light him (or… say… Rivera) up at any time. Karstens, on Saturday, in his first start of the year, threw 89 pitches in 4.1 innings while being down 7-4. Wright, in his second start ever, got lit up with four straight homeruns in the third, and threw 70 pitches with a one-run deficit.
At some point, you have to trust that your bullpen will HOLD either a lead or the opponent to not scoring more when losing.
2) I think the reason why you’re seeing such anarchic patterns is due to #1. He’s not getting pitchers to last long in the game, and he can’t risk running them to exhaustion for fear that they have another injury.
I don’t want to come across as defending Torre, but he’s working with what he has. I don’t know if any of us would be able to do any better, under these conditions.
Peter, stuart brings up another good point.
can you add to the blog the magic number already for winning the division?
I’m actually being serious… in that it would be HILARIOUS for us to keep an eye on.
BOY!! Some of you can really type!
sammy,
Good points. I agree with taking Pettitte out in that situation, since he had hit 100 pitches and losing him to injury would be the nail in the coffin. Wright was obliterated. But I think neither of these cases were “borderline.” Rasner is Mr. Borderline, and I think Torre should have left him in longer in both of his starts. Not because he’s good, but because we are desperate for starter innings.
As for #2 I think the problem is not Torre’s anarchic use of the pen, but the opposite, his dogmatism. That’s why we’ve seen things like Proctor pitching on back-to-back-to-back days. Torre’s biggest pen problem (maybe the source of all his other pen problems) is that he likes routines and sometimes sticks to them regadless of the circumstances (such as the score or fatigue levels).
That said, Torre has done some good things with the pen. His use of Pettitte in relief on throw days is a terrific idea. I like that he went to Bean in the Wright game. He is definitely not an idiot. But too often he reverts to predictable and sometimes ineffective strategies.
Jeremy-
I would agree that Torre’s pretty stubborn about his bullpen. He definitely has his favorites, and obviously those are Vizcaino and Proctor right now, with Bruney a close third. I would imagine it has to do with two things:
1) for Proctor and Bruney, their reputation with the club. They proved to an extent last year to be workhorses, and provide day in and day out.
2) for Vizcaino, his reputation among baseball. I’m thinking particularly of his nickname being “Everyday,” or something to that effect.
at this point, every one of those guys have been spent. Putting in guys for only one inning doesn’t solve the problem; matter of fact, it only makes it worse… because you’re using more guys. The only one who hasn’t been out there a lot? Krazy Kyle (once since the Twins game that he blew). (It appears that he’s the only one that Joe just doesn’t feel can get it done.)
all that said… you have to go with what you know would work. I’m sure it doesn’t help that there’s been grumblings the last couple of years that Joe has his “boys” and the rest just are on the outside looking in. I wonder if Farnsy now has applied that train of thought.
the question that lingers for me is: if/when we get back on track with starters, etc… can our bullpen recover as well? I would say “yes.” There’s too much left in the season for us not to be able to get back on our feet and have these boys pitching better
sammy, murph dog:
If we were nitpicking, I’d agree with your perspective. Let me pose a few (there are many) examples of glaring mismanagement and then give me your take on why these moves couldn’t have been avoided.
1)Scott Proctor is on pace to pitch in more games than any other pitcher in history. It’d be one thing if Torre only used him in key situations because no one else was effective. Two appearances, however, have come in 10-1 (Minnesota) and 9-2 games (Cleveland). Perhaps those innings taken off his arm would have left Proctor more fresh for his weekend marathon at Fenway?
2)Brian Bruney was also used in Minnesota and Cleveland blow outs. Again, had he had rest instead, maybe he could have been used in stead of…
3)On April 14, Vizcaino had an ERA of 1.08. but had already appeared in 8 games. That Thursday, he was brought in against the Indians and was completely ineffective throwing 30 pitches. It clearly looked as if the earl season workload had caught up to him. So, does Torre give him the next day off? No…he bring him to face the Red Sox in a game the Yankees also needed.
Those are just some obvious, simple moves that SHOULD have been avoided and had NOTHING to do with starters not giving innings as all occurred in games in which the starters actually pitched well.
If anyone can explain those moves, I’d be very grateful.
marcus – sorry. It’s just because we care.
(note: didn’t say that the more we type, the more we care. Some of us can make clear points very succinctly. I am not one of those people.)
SJ44:
What you and I don’t know is how often a starter tells Torre or Guidry he is finished. Joe would never tell the media that because he doesn’t throw his players under the bus. But in several games this season, starters have told Torre they were gassed. Should be leave them in?
Joe is ultimately responsible for the team. But Guidry and the conditioning staff are responsible for having them ready to pitch.
Of course they chart bullpen pitches. They chart everything.
Every reliever is asked every day whether they can pitch. As Mike Myers and Mariano Rivera have said countless times, to us and the other pitchers, is their responsibility to be honest. If they can’t pitch, they need to admit it.
Their bullpen should be very good and I think it will be. But the lack of innings from the starters is killing them. That’ll change shortly as Wang and Mussina return. The length of starts is something that has been largely out of Joe’s control.
Sorry if I defend Joe all the time. But somebody has to. There are a lot of reactionary fans out there who rip the guy for no reason and have no understanding of how the team works. SJ44, you are a reasonable fellow. But some other people are just idiots.
Before I ask this, I’m just going to say that I mean this to be an objective question, not an insult to anyone…So please don’t shoot me…I’m honestly curious what other Yanks’ fans think! Anyway, my question is…Why does everyone obsess about Joe’s managing, when a fair amount of the struggles (or successes) any manager has is clearly due to the talent he has been given? Yes, we have All-Start across the board on offense…so I guess you can’t question the talent there…Although I honestly think the Yanks’ should be looking for better role-players for certain positions rather than going for star power all the time. I mean, we’ve won titles in the past with guys like Charlie Hayes, Mariano Duncan and Chad Curtis playing the field…Guys that weren’t stars by any means, but still did the little things it took to win games…and I think a lot of that “little ball” has been lost on all these “All-Star” teams we’ve had since 2001.
Anyway, I still say why doesn’t anyone give Cashman any heat? After all, he was responsible for originally bringing in some of the guys that are the biggest busters right now…like Pavano and Farnsworth, just to name two. Also, everyone loves the fact that he got rid of Johnson and Sheffield, but what did he really get of value in return? The centerpiece of the Johnson deal was Ohlendorf, when he could have had Micah Owings instead. Owings has bona fide major league stuff, and clearly could have started helping the Yanks this year (as he is now helping the D-Back). How far away is Ohlendorf? Obviously not close enough that the Yanks would call him up, even though they desperately need decent arms right now!
Then we have the Sheffield deal, where Humberto Sanchez was the key pitching prospect Cashman settled upon. How can you trade for a kid who has already had so many arm problems in his young career?! Much like the Johnson deal, I’m sure Detroit had a better, more major league-ready prospect in the fold that we could have gotten. Instead, Cashman went for quantity over quality…and so Joe has to deal with the likes of Karstens, Rasner and Wright. Seriously, could any manager win with these guys starting games?!
I could go on about the bullpen Cashman has saddled us with, but I think the results on the field speak for themselves. The bottom line is…Does Joe make questionable moves? Yes, I think so. However, there is a lot to be said for the pitching he has been handed to manage…and all that falls at Cashman’s door, doesn’t it?
Amen Peter. If the starters could go 6 not 4and 1/3 that changes everything.
I thought Farnsworth has not pitched alot and he has not relative but been in 7 games already…
they simply need 6 innings per start or so and they will be fine. I laugh at the posts…It is a long season and they had 3 starters on the Dl at the same time… that is alot. Also there 6th starter Karstens was on the DL…...
They need to get healthy and again what 40 man roster move are they doing for Hughes and who is getting sent down today when they activate Wang????
William-
I’ll try to explain them, but I’m not Joe… so my attempts are feeble, at best. Maybe Peter can bring Joe in for one of those Q/A e-mail posts that he did with Jeter during spring training. I’m sure both (Peter and Joe) would love that.
1) I know it sounds silly, but I would say that Joe was keeping the bullpen in mind. He’s comfortable with Proctor going into those situations. (Threw 17 pitches in 0.2 innings on 4.10.07 (MN); 18 pitches in 1 inning on 4.18.07(CLE).) He proved last year that he could be effective under those conditions.
He also probably didn’t expect two of his three starters not to last until the fifth inning; I don’t know it would be effective to your players to go in to a series with that planned.
2) I think the same can be said of Bruney. (Threw 12 pitches in 1 inning on 4.9.07 (MN); 15 pitches in 1.1 innings on 4.17.07 (CLE).) In this case, I think he used both Bruney and Proctor because they’re both proven to Joe that they’re reliable on a consistent basis. He had those guys in for – an inning each? I don’t know the specifics exactly – so he could spare the rest of the bullpen.
3) I don’t think Torre should have known that, 8 games in, Vizcaino would be that taxed. For someone that prided himself in being “ready every day,” Torre felt comfortable with that, and giving him the ball and the lead in the 7th in the game against Cleveland (2-1, 4.19.07). Who would’ve known he was going to give up 4 runs?
That’s also why he brought him in to clean up Ortiz hitting the double off of Myers in the 7th with a 6-2 lead. Again, he was bringing in someone who he had relied upon to get some outs. That’s the role of the bullpen. That’s also why he didn’t put Farnsworth out there. Because he had already shown he wasn’t 100% capable of doing it.
hope that helps.
sorry if it doesn’t.
Peter: That doesn’t explain everything. Can you provide an answer to my questions above? No one is asking for Torre to be infallible, just to avoid the obvious mistakes that he repeatedly makes. I am open to hearing a defense to the three examples I cited, but all anyone counters with is “it’s the starters fault”.
William – sorry… wanted to clarify something.
said I didn’t know the specifics.
I went and got them after I said that.
those are the numbers. Thought that they would be useful to you.
just wanted to put that out there.
thanks.
Thanks for trying Sammy…not sure it address the main points though.
1) He didn’t need to use Bruney and Proctor in blowouts. A manager’s job is to have foresight and he had to know things would be tough with Rasner, Karstens and Wright going 4x over the next two series.
2) Viz is not “literally” an everyday pitcher. Eight games by April 14 is too much. Also, he showed Joe he was tired on Thursday, so why go back to him AGAIN on Friday?
Pete,
All reasonable points.
I will say, Joe does throw some players under the bus (see ARod last year) so, its not 100% he isn’t a “bus thrower”. lol
Seriously, I hear what you are saying. I will add though that senior statesmen such as Mo and Myers have the luxury (service time, money made, etc) to tell the “truth” regarding whether or not they can pitch.
Guys like Proctor and Bruney? I honestly think those guys would tell Torre they are “ready to go” if they carried their right arms into the manager’s office when asked about their availability. The desire to earn, peer pressure, wanting to stay in the majors, basic athlete insecurity, etc. makes you do crazy things. Its got to be tough for younger arms (my biggest complaint about Joe) telling the manager they can’t go on a given day. Lot of pressure to put on a young guy. Sometimes, the manager and the pitching coach has to make the decision for the player.
Guidry? Another issue for another day. One of my real pet peeves about the team this season is having the most inexperienced coaches (pitching coach and bench coach) in the two most important positions on the staff. JMO but, it gives a guy like Joe (at this stage of his career) too much ability to walk over those guys re: baseball decisions.
Thanks for the feedback. Its always much appreciated and this blog is, hands down, the best Yankee blog on the ‘net.
Thanks for making it that way.
how about using Tom Gordon in the 9th inning of a 19-8 game 3 of the 2004 ALCS?
inexcusable and just plain dumb.
Vizcaino was apparently known as “Daily” when playing for other teams. His personal workload highs are 76 games and 81.3 IP, both set in 2002. Since then, Vizcaino has not pitched more 75 games or 72 innings in any season.
Torre has a more literal definition of “daily.”
Proctor: 83 G, 102.3 IP in 2006.
Gordon: 79 G, 80.6 IP in 2005. 80 G, 89.6 IP in 2004.
Quantrill: 86 appearances, 95.3 IP in 2004.
Luis “Daily” Vizcaino may truly earn the nickname this year. He is on track for 108 games and 105 IP.
William has this issue pegged. Too often, Torre uses his best relievers regardless of the score. It is no coincidence that the relievers I list above were the best setup men on the team in each of those years.
Pete, I know the team tracks innings and readiness, but we’re talking about the same Torre who used Proctor with a 10 run lead last year. Some of his decisions defy rational explanation.
“Much like the Johnson deal, I’m sure Detroit had a better, more major league-ready prospect in the fold that we could have gotten.”
really, you’re “sure”??
who, Andrew Miller?
just like you are “sure” about the Johnson deal?
you have NO IDEA what was offered.
William-
No problem. Worth a try… worth another one.
I want another crack at it.
1) I think he did have that in mind. Each bullpen pitcher was used in both the MN and the CLE series; Moose pulled his hammy in one (4.11.07). The one they won 10-2, Pettitte threw 96 pitches in six complete innings.
In the CLE game where they won 9-2, Igawa had thrown 92 pitches in six complete innings.
These were both games that they had in-hand, so you put your bullpen in, and get the win. We all have seen that you never know what Iggy you’re going to get from one inning to the next, let alone one game to the next. Pettitte was still coming off his back issues… and it’s mid-April.
2) I would contend that Vizcaino wasn’t showing tiredness on that Thursday game; he was just showing that they were hitting off of him. Every pitcher – starter, reliever – gets knocked around every so often. And Torre put him back in on Friday to see if he had recovered. I would imagine, for a bullpen guy… especially for a veteran like Luis… he separates one day from the next. Forgets about failures and builds on successes.
Again, I think you have a point… but what else is he to do? It’s not like Joe has gone to the same three guys each time. They’ve ALL got innings in; they’ve all thrown a lot of pitches thus far. That has to do with the circumstances surrounding the starters and the games themselves.
+kerouac April 24th, 2007 at 6:42 am
i am amazed at the people who think they know more baseball than a guy who has been in the game—the professional game—for nearly 50 years.+
If we take your point to its logical extreme it would mean that we shouldn’t express an opinion because there is no way that anyone with that much experience could ever be wrong.
That’s just ridiculous, and would obviate the need for this blog.
That’s more reasonable, but I would say the following:
If you needed innings in the blowouts, why not tap Kyle Fransworth? He was coming off of two poor outing and could have used low leverage work. Also, Myers can throw innings. If you are going to use and abuse someone, make it him. His delivery is more condusive to overwork. Finally, maybe Mo could have gotten an inning. Like Farns, Mo was one of the few who needed work. Who knows, one inning on Tues/Wednesday might have made him more sharp on Friday.
The point is that Torre did have options at the points in questions yet still went back to the usual suspects.
Here’s where I agree with you and Peter…today, tomorrow and for the next few games, Torre really is in a now win situation. Everyone is toast…but he’s the one who did the burning. If some semblance of normalcy returns, will Joe be more careful with the pen? It is vital that he is because the next rough stretch is always just around the corner.
I will say, at least as far as pitching, there are some here on the blog who know about Yankee pitchers than the current regime in place.
Throughout this thread, there have been numerous examples put forth (the latest and greatest: Gordon’s use in Game 3 in ‘04) that defies any logical explanation.
I understand injuries create problems. But, that’s why they pay the guy $7 million per year. He has to find solutions and, IMO, all too often, his decisionmaking re” pitching defies explanation.
You don’t have to spend 50 years in the game to question the moves. These aren’t personal, anger related tirades against Joe Torre. Its analyizing his actions throughout the first 18 games of the season and trying to find some logical reasoning behind some of his decisions.
you guys ever hear the story about gordon’s nerves being so bad that he was throwing up in the bullpen at fenway during the 2004 playoffs?
Roger Clemens is just a 5 inning pitcher. He wont go over that. Why should we sign him, if the only thing he is going to do is pitch 5 and out…
“Roger Clemens is just a 5 inning pitcher. He wont go over that. Why should we sign him, if the only thing he is going to do is pitch 5 and out…”
and you are basing this on what exactly?
he went at least 6 IP in 13 of his 19 starts last year.
and in some of the games he went 5, he must have been lifted b/c his spot in the order was coming up, since his pitch count was only in the 70’s and he had only given up 1 ER.
Yeah, the Yankees don’t need Clemens. Let’s just keep putting out the guys they have run out there so far.
Here’s a little tip. Five-six shutout innings, or only giving up a run or two (which Clemens has done the last three seasons), is better than anybody the Yankees can put in his spot in the rotation.
Yeah, we don’t need him. Geez, I often wonder if some folks even watch the games.
True, 5 shoutout innings, then what?
Overworked bullpen