Today in The Journal News
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- April
- 24
Alex Rodriguez is off to the the best start in baseball history and the Yankees are wasting it. He homered twice but poor pitching led to a fourth straight loss.
The good news, depending on your view, is that Phil Franchise is coming to the Bronx. The panic button has officially been pressed.
Chien-Ming Wang returns tonight and Hideki Matsui came back last night.
This entry was posted
on Tuesday, April 24th, 2007 at 12:30 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
If Hughes has a spot start or two, it’s no big deal. Yanks have to weather the next week so as not to be 7+ games out.
If they keep around 3-4 and our starters get healthy, all will be fine.
We need Wang and Pettitte to go 7 prior to Phil’s game.
Pete, when do we get to read the Wang book..in English?
Rich Harden, Felix Hernandez and Francisco Liriano, ages 24, 20 and 22 respectfully.
What do they have in common?
1. They are all power arms under the age of 25.
2. They have all been dubbed “can’t miss pitchers” by the experts in the baseball world.
3. They are all in organizations that have excellent reputations in both grooming and taking care of pitchers. Particularly, Oakland and Minnesota.
4. Most importantly, they are ALL on the Disabled List. Harden for the third time in his career. Felix for his first and Liriano for his SECOND Tommy John Surgery. He had one when he was in the Giants farm system.
I write this because I caution those who think Phil Hughes is the “answer”. Peter is 100% correct. This reeks of a panic move and the odds are greater it will be catostrophic than it will be successful.
To take a 20 year old kid, who has pitched ONE good game in his career at the AAA level, has NEVER pitched 180 professional innings in one season, and put him in the rotation, is insane.
Especially, when you have him pitch for a guy who has the reputation of blowing out arms.
Best case scenario for the Yankees…..Hughes goes 3 gives up 7 runs and is back at AAA on Friday.
Worst case scenario for the Yankees…..he goes 7, strikes out 10, they win, and the tabloids dub him the “Next Clemens” or the “Savior” and question why he didn’t pitch against the Red Sox.
If scenario #2 occurs, Torre will blow this kid’s arm out and he will end up in the same place Harden, Hernandez and Liriano are right now.
This is the “Perfect Storm” scenario for the Yankees. A manager on the last year of his contract, looking for another year, a team desperate to win with no pitching (and no understanding on how to utilize the pitching they have) and a 20 year old kid who has the potential to be great.
I hate to be doomsday here. However, to look at the data regarding young pitching prodigies, and still call this kid up to pitch, borders on baseball malpractice.
for some strange reason, i have this feeling like they are saying “until Moose gets back,” but if Hughes throws 6 innings, gives up 3-4 runs, we’ll see him in the rotation and Igawa sent down…
come May 1st, the rotation will set up Wang, Pettitte, Moose, Karstens, Hughes….
and then come June 1st, Wang, Pettitte, Clemens, Moose, Hughes, with Karstens going into the pen.
idk why i think this way, just do. i think they are quietly hoping they get some performances from Hughes like we were able to get from Wang when he first came up 2 years ago.
They’re just trying to stop the bleeding while 3/5 of their rotation’s on the DL. The Yankees don’t intend to keep Phil in the rotation the whole season. Hope his vacation in the bigs is a good one, though!
The offense and defense look great. If the starters and the bullpen can get in synch all will be good.
The over/under on Torre getting fired is Memorial Day.
Peter,
George King keeps refering the GS in his stories. I know it’s the Post but how can a writer even for that rag make things up. GS obviouly talks to no one and seems to have lost his fastball. Why drag him in with Roger Clemens after every loss?
RIP Dave Halberstam. I read them all.
Torre doesn’t blow out starters arms. He pulls them with 87 pitches when they’re doing well so he can blow out Proctor.
The biggest problem I have with Hughes coming up is the Yankees only want 100 pitch games from him. So, how are they better off with Hughes tossing 5 innings and risking injury now, then allowing somebody else out there throwing those 5 innings.
I think Clemens will be the answer but that’s not for another 4-6 weeks. Until then, the Yankees need Pavano, Moose and Pettitte to pitch a minimum of 6 innings per start regardless of how hard they are getting hit.
Where is Aaron Small when you need him…lol
On a side note, obviously Underdog has been using up those super energy pills in this ring. He might want to save some of them for the fall…lol
i can’t wait to see how many people here whine if Hughes is dominant Thursday yet gets sent back down to AAA once Moose is back.
Why is the risk of injury so much greater if he throws 85-100 pitches in the majors or 85-100 pitches in the minor. The risk of injury comes in to account when a young starter is throwing significantly more pitches and more innings than any previous year not the level in whihc they throw at. As long as the kid doesn’t get the Dusty Baker treatment he runs no more risk of being injured than he would at any other level. Not to mention that there is 99% chance he goes down on Wed when Moose comes back. A panic move is not having your best available option spot start it is expecting him to be a savior for the enitre season which currently is not the case.
Let’s not go scheduling Hughes’ Tommy John surgery just yet. He’s no more likely to get hurt pitching up here than he is in Scranton. Sure we need to be careful with his pitch counts and his innings, but I think bad mechanics and too many breaking pitches at too young an age have alot more to do with the injuries mentioned than overwork or premature promotion.
As to Joe, his problem is too short a leash with his starters, not too long. Assuming he doesn’t get the bright idea to start using Hughes in relief on his throw day (always a possibility) I think taking a look at him until Mussina gets healthy does no harm.
I also doubt that he’ll break into a million pieces if he gets kicked around a time or two. If he’s that soft, no amount of Triple A seasoning will toughen him up.
I agree with the idea that if he throws 80 pitches in AAA or 80 pitches in the MLB, it’s still the same number of pitches. When Mussina, Wang, and Pavano come back around (if ever) then Phil Franchise will go back to Scranton. Otherwise, he’s a better option than Chase Wright.
cjc- SJ is exactly right, there are two risks:
1- If Hughes joins the rotation for good, there is literally no way to limit how many innings he pitches or how many pitches he throws. There will surely be pressure from everywhere if he pitches well to keep him up.
2- Maybe it doesn’t apply so much to Hughes because of the reports of his beyond-his-years maturity, but there is the possibility that a tough outing could mess with his head. I don’t think it will, and in fact, I think there is a strong possibility that if doesn’t do well (or even if he does) he’s mature enough to take something away from a spot start and know what he has to go back and work on, especially since he’ll be facing guys like Wells and Thomas.
Yankees 2007, all Yankee starters are usually on about a 100 pitch count each game, so that’s not really an issue. Besides, 100 pitches doesn’t mean 5 innings, it all depends on how he’s pitching and how efficient he is. Could get 7, 8… could get 4 or 5… The latter not exactly different than what we’ve been getting.
SJ44 – “To take a 20 year old kid, who has pitched ONE good game in his career at the AAA level, has NEVER pitched 180 professional innings in one season, and put him in the rotation, is insane.”
Hughes finished last year in AAA and I don’t know the numbers but I’m pretty sure he’s had definitely more than 1 good start between then and this year.
As of right now, the Yankees rotation looks like this:
1. Chien-Ming Wang
2. Andy Pettitte
3. Phil Hughes
4. Jeff Karstens ( right off the DL and into the fires of Fenway, so you can’t really judge how good he’s gonna be)
5. Kei Igawa
This isn’t that bad really, and the Yanks will have Mussina back in a week, Pavano any time between now and next year, and probably Clemens in a month or two.
The Yanks really ran backwards out of the starting gate this year with all these injuries. We’re 18 games into the season and we still haven’t seen our team at maximum potential. Torre has been throwing his B- team out there every night. But hopefully things will start to calm down, and by the time everyone (Mussina, Pavano, etc…) come back, we’ll see Hughes sent back to AA for more experience, rest, or whatever he needs.
Do I have that wrong? did he go from A to AA last year or AA to AAA?
I wouldn’t say this start will decide whether it’s really Phil Franchise or Phil Phony. But if he can last 6 innings and allow 3 or less runs against the Jays’ lineup, it’s going to be a good sign.
Yeah, looks like A to AA last year, sorry SJ44…
Here’s the thing. If Hughes comes up and pitches well, even if he’s lights out, the Yankees are perfectly within reason to say we need to limit his innings because he hasn’t pitched 200 innings ever and he’s young, wanna take care of his arm long-term, etc… Obviously, yes, people will clammer for him to stay. But guess what, there’s only one guy who’s clammering matters – the Boss.
If Cashman, Torre, Guidry, etc.. decide it’s best to send him back down no matter how he does Thursday night, it’s him they need to convince, and no-one else, and certainly not us.
and for the media, us fans, etc… they could certainly site the issues with the other guys mentioned (Liriano, Hernandez….) as reasons to be cautious.
Peter,
1. This isn’t a “panic” move. Signing Barry Zito to a $100 million contract in the offseason would have been a panic move. He’s the best available in-house option after Chase Wright showed he wasn’t ready.
2. You CAN limit a pitcher’s innings and workload. Think of how the Mets and the Red Sox have babied Pedro with extra days off.
3. Pitchers aren’t anymore likely to get hurt in the majors than in the minors if their workload is managed. Humberto Sanchez, anyone? I don’t recall him being in the majors.
There is a big difference between throwing 85-100 pitches at the major league level and throwing 85-100 pitches at AAA. In fact, its not even close.
First, every pitch in the majors has a purpose, unlike AAA. Guys in the majors foul off pitches that guys in AAA swing and miss. That extends at bats and also puts more pressure on the pitcher.
Second, you also have to throw all your pitches for strikes in the majors because hitters are that good. Hughes can get away with just throwing fastballs for strikes at AAA and he would put up impressive numbers. You can’t do that in the majors and succeed as a starter.
Its called “pitching” and not “throwing” for a reason. Phil Hughes is not yet a big league pitcher. He isn’t, and his AAA starts show it right now. He will be but, this is WAY too early to put him in the rotation, regardless of whether its short term or not. Also, pitching for the Yankees is a helluva lot more stressful than pitching for Scranton. Its an entirely different set of circumstances.
As far as the “Dusty Baker” treatment of pitchers, one can argue Joe is already there. Mendoza, Quantrill, Sturtze, Gordon, Pettitte (remember, his elbow problems started with the Yankees) and more would argue Joe is Dusty Baker.
Its a panic move and if it backfires, it sets this franchise back ten years.
Different circumstances re: the injury but, how long did it take for the Yankees to produce a homegrown pitcher after Brien Taylor went down? Wasn’t until Andy Pettitte came along and that was (IIRC) about 5-7 years. You can’t risk your young arms for short term gain.
With all the talent on this team, if they need Hughes to stabilize their pitching staff, they have bigger problems than just what we have seen after 18 games.
Its a huge gamble to make right now. I know the “party line” is, he is only going to be here as long as Moose is on the DL.
But, we also heard that they weren’t going to pitch Mariano in the 8th this yr, were going to be more careful with Proctor, and Hughes would spend the season in AAA. We have all seen how those “promises” have turned out.
If Hughes comes pitches well Thursday night, does anybody not think he isn’t going to get another start? Of course he is.
Its one thing to spend $46 million on Kei Igawa. Its another thing to have him be human batting practice every fifth day. He isn’t long for the rotation and, right now, Hughes is the best bet to be the in house replacement. It sure as hell isn’t going to be Carl Pavano, not that he is residing in his comfy chair on the DL.
If Hughes pitches well, IMO (and that’s all it is) he will be in the rotation for good. That is a big mistake, and the data shows a very good chance it will be a long term mistake for the franchise.
I’m against bringing up Hughes at this point, but shouldn’t we panic just a little bit? Right now, the Yankees have exactly one pitcher that has the potential to get into the 7th inning (and two once Wang gets up to speed, but he’ll need 2-3 starts before he hits his stride) and that is cause for panic. They can’t continue to tax the bullpen at this current rate and they don’t have starters that can get into the 6th inning. What else is there to do but bring up the best starter not currently on the roster? Do we all think that there’s something that the Yankees can do to make Wright, Karstens, Rasner, Igawa, etc. into 7-8 inning pitchers? Sure, there are very good reasons for keeping Hughes in AAA, but what gets done in the meantime? It seems like many continue to hope that our current staff of pitchers just “turns it around”? Isn’t that a little insane?
yeah, i agree with the chorus, it’s not really STARTERS who have to fear Torre.
it’s the relievers.
he’s TOO cautious with his starters.
and he will be extra careful with Hughes.
he knows how important he is.
I’m going Thursday night, hope he pitches well and that whatever happens after that is the best thing for him and the team’s future. I doubt he’s going to come out and pitch so well the clammering for him to stay in the rotation will start (though that might happen even with a mediocre start), but I’m sure he can pitch well enough for him to learn something, get some good experience, and for us to win.
eric:
You made reasonable points and apparently the Yankees agree with you. But there is another side.
1) Zito would not have been a panic move. It would have been a bad shopping move, paying one guy too much for too long. Zito could have been good for the Yanks but not at that price or dutarion.
2) Phil Hughes is not Pedro Martinez and the Yankees are not the Mets. Pedro has been a filthy, effective pitcher for a long time and at his age a layoff is not so bad. Hughes has yet to be consistent at the MLB level. Hughes needs regular limited work to bring him along. Pedro also pitches in the NL. Sorry, but not nearly as hard to do as face one through nine in the AL.
3) There are risks in the minors for sure and Phil has survived them so far. But Hughes will have to compete at a higher level than he’s ever seen before and there is more stress per pitch in MLB, since the stakes are higher and the hitters are far better. And Hughes’ upside is much higher than Sanchez’ even before the injury to Sanchez. So there is more to lose.
Wow, when there is nothing good to harp about, the media and fans pile on by blaming the Yankees brass and saying that bringing up the best pitching prospect in MLB to pitch on the big stage because your other starting pitchers can’t go past the 4th or 5th inning except for 1 is a panic move????? Why can’t people be happy for this kid and support this move as his baptism, Its shameful and degrading to the org. Hello, there is no where else to turn to #1, and #2 he is ready whether you chicken littles like it or not! 80-90 pitches in AAA is the same as 80-90 pitches in the bigs, Guidy has a counter, they will be careful with him, let him pitch and not spin it as a negative geesh!
Tim-
Phil Hughes pitched 146 innings between Tampa and Trenton in 2006. He’s not ready to be part of a major league rotation from April through October. He’s fine for a spot start (or two or three), which is what I believe we are all hoping for, but the possibility that strong outings would result in keeping him in the rotation would not be what the future ace of the staff needs right now.
How do you know he’s not ready? Are you a pitching coach? Give it a chance! This kid is the #1 prospect for a reason.
SJ44 is right. Harden is 24 and is on the DL. Clearly, Hughes needs to stay in the minors until he’s at least 25 to avoid injury.
In the eyes of the team, he wasn’t ready a week ago, when they bypassed him for Chase Wright. Now, magically, since they are on a 4 game losing streak and their pitching is an embarrassment, he is “ready”.
Must have improved a lot in the last week!
I going to see the franchise pitch on Thurs.
One thing to consider both Wells and The Hurt are not hitting righthanders well this year.
Can Bernie Pitch?
For all of the people that say that this is a panic move and we shouldn’t bring up the #1 pitching prospect in baseball what should the Yankees do?
They have Igawa who can’t last 5 innings, they have Karstens who isn’t ready and got lit up over the weekend, they have Wright who wasn’t the answer and got sent back down to AA, plus Wang and Pettitte. So that’s Igawa, Karstens, Wang and Pettitte. Correct if I’m wrong but you need 5 pitchers for a rotation.
Should they call Rasner back up? – hasn’t been able to last past the 4th inning.
Should they bring up Olendorf, or Desalvo? – both are older than Hughes but don’t have the “stuff” that Hughes has.
Bring up Villone for a spot start? –
What is the answer if not Hughes?
I understand all the complaints and nervousness about Hughes. It’s just a little tough to understand. Maybe he’ll will blow his elbow out in 3rd and I’ll eat my words. I would hope at this point everyone would just hope Hughes succeeds, Mussina gets healthy, and our future ace can be sent back to AAA.
Tim: That’s exactly my thought. What’s the alternative? My first reaction is to be against Hughes coming up to The Show, but I’m also not ashamed to admit that I don’t have another solution to our current predicament.
Hughes got knocked around at the futures game. Next game he pitched at Trenton he dominated. He is not a headcase and would see failure on the big stage as just a greater motivater to him than anything else.
give him a start or two…but have a reliever ready to go get Phil out of the game at around 85 pitches.
Pete, I guess if there’s a silver lining here, it’s that the Yankees can test their pitching depth, which they have touted.
But, looking at their farm teams, they are bereft of any position players who are close to helping. Scary. There’s not a 1B, 2B, SS, 3B, C, or OF who could step in, outside of Thompson and Sardinha, who are middling, and maybe a utility guy like Gonzalez.
i feel for wang . all this pressure to save the yanks season and only makes 300k . poor guy hasnt been back from the d.l. for a game and he needs to go 6-7 innings on 75 pitches . not to mention phil hughes . the kid is now officialy rushed up for a spot start . dont give me – ” we just need to see where he’s at . ”
Hughes already made the big jump from A+ to AA successfully. That is considered to be the most difficult transition for a minor league player, so I believe that Hughes will have no problems adjusting to the majors. Also, Phil Hughes has a mechanically sound delivery which does not make him a huge injury risk.
When you use 10 starting pitchers before game 20, I think the button needs to be pressed.
Thanks Rhody,
All GM’s should base their decision on a one inning stint in a meaningless all star game.
Hughes should have been traded ASAP after allowing a run in that game.
Here’s Scranton Wilkes-Barre’s Justin Pope line from his relief appearance 2 nights ago:
1/3 inning pitched, 7 hits, 1 walk, 5 earned runs.
Looks like he’s ready for the big club. He needs to walk a few more before he’d fit in though.
sj44 – you’re having to work awfully hard to justify the statement that throwing 85 pitches in the majors is a lot harder on the arm than it is in the minors because big league hitters “have a plan” and it “puts more pressure on the pitcher.”
That doesn’t make any sense. A pitch is a pitch. Types of pitches can put extra stress on the arm, and a tired arm has to work harder to throw a pitch than a rested arm – but in general, a pitch is a pitch. Unless he’s throwing 120 pitches BECAUSE he’s in the majors, his injury risk doesn’t increase at all.
This comment you make about it “not even being close” is not based in anything substantial.
Also, the idea that a major league pitcher has to “throw all his pitches for strikes” but in the minors Hughes “just has to throw his fastball for strikes” – again, you’re stretching. But that isn’t more proof that this increases the risk of an injury, in fact, you’ve shot yourself in the foot with that argument because if Hughes doesn’t need to throw curves for strikes in Triple A, then it means he needs to be promoted because that level is no longer a challenge to him.
The scare tactics about risking an injury to Hughes in this move is absolutely silly.
Nobody has to worry about Joe Torre or Brian Cashman limiting Phil Hughes innings – Major league hitters will do that. Hughes will probably just be a spot starter for a while, and then go back to Triple A. But if he starts 3,4, 5 games, it’s likely he’s going to get knocked out of at least 1 or 2 early. He’s not going to pitch 8 innings every outing. His innings will be limited naturally.
Finally – I live in Syracuse, NY. I was at the “one” good game Hughes pitched in Triple A against the SkyChiefs last wednesday night. Trust me, he throws everything for strikes. Beyond the weather Hughes had to pitch in during his second Triple A start, he had a slight problem with his delivery that didn’t allow him to have the command on his pitches he normally has. Nardi Contreras corrected it, and Phil went out and dominated the SkyChiefs.
He’s ready for the major leagues. If you’ve seen him pitch live, you know he’s ready. Should he throw 210 innings this year? No. But again, hitters will control his innings pitched – especially major league hitters.
I’ve seen him pitch 5 times live and he isn’t ready for the major leagues.
In AAA, you can develop your pitches. You can have nights when you are ordered (which Hughes was last year) to limit certain pitches in certain situations so he can work on other pitches.
If you think pitching in AAA is the same as pitching in the majors, then there is nothing to debate. Its simply wrong and numerous people in this blog can also offer reasons why.
You are talking about one good start by a 20 year old kid who has pitched EXACTLY 3 more games at the minor league level than Chase Wright.
You don’t think that’s a cause for concern? You don’t think the number of under 24 phenom arms coming up lame isn’t a concern?
It is to me.
Well first, nobody said pitching in the majors is the same as pitching in the minors. So please, if you’re going to respond – respond to what was actually said.
You tried to suggest that Hughes is being put at a greater risk of injury BECAUSE he’s throwing pitches in the majors. That theory is, no offense, completely ridiculous and I explained why. You obviously couldn’t refute what was posted, so there’s no reason to get back into it.
Second, you’ve picked out three guys who happen to be injured. Felix Hernandez has a strained muscle. That can happen whether you’re throwing in the majors or the minors. It’s a muscle pull. You know how many guys have the same injury in the minor leagues right now?
Third, if you’ve seen Phil Hughes pitch live and you don’t think he’s ready for the majors, you don’t know pitching. It’s as simple as that. That may sound rude, but it’s also true. Every scout that’s seen him pitch has said that he’s ready since early last summer. You’re just flat-out wrong…I suspect you don’t actually feel that way, you’re just trying to justify your (incorrect) point about the majors increasing his risk of injury.
Hughes is exactly 2 months shy of his 21st birthday. Johan Santan’s debut was two weeks after his 21st birthday. How’d that work out? I can give you a whole list of guys who pitched in the majors at 20, 21 years old that will offset any list of pitchers you think are injured because they pitched too early in the majors.
Phil Hughes was “ordered” to not throw the slider so he could work on other breaking pitches. He mastered Mussina’s curveball grip in TWO WEEKS…a pitch Mussina said it took him 2 years to throw correctly. I’m sorry, but you’re not offering any substantial information to justify your point. You’re just using cliches that don’t mean anything.
It’s also worth pointing out that Phil Hughes doesn’t run the fastball up to home plate at 98-99 mph like some of those “phenoms” you mentioned. His best fastball is going to be mid-90’s right now at best. His motion is fluid, and his stride isn’t too long – which is one particular reason why Harden probably put too much strain on his arm in the first place.
Wasn’t Clemens 21 when he came up? I could be wrong (not sarcasm), but I don’t think he’s had any major injuries, maybe not even ever on the DL?
Interesting, the Yankees themselves didn’t think Hughes was ready a week ago when they passed him for Chase Wright.
So, in one week, he is now “ready”? Ok, whatever.
He isn’t ready for numerous reasons. One, he has never been stretched out in his 2+ years in the organization.
This year is supposed to be the year to stretch him out. Does it make sense to do it in the majors? No, it doesn’t.
No team in the majors begins to stretch out their prospects at the major league level. Nobody, except the Yankees. Its the wrong way to develop pitchers which is why the Yankees have had exactly TWO homegrown starting pitchers in the last 14 years who have had any level of success: Pettitte and Wang. Not exactly a great track record.
Comparing him to Johan Santana is absolutely foolish and why the hype surrounding Hughes can’t possibly be met.
Santana has two plus pitches, a fastball and a changeup. His changeup may be the best in the sport. He is also lefthanded, another advantage. In addition, he has a slider that, while not a plus pitch, is still an effective pitch.
How many plus pitches does Hughes have right now? One. His 92-94 MPH fastball. That’s it. He hasn’t even begun to pitch to the inner half of the plate until this year. How in the world does that make him “ready” right now?
Both his change and curveball are not plus pitches and one good start in Syracuse doesn’t make them plus pitches.
Its much easier for him to work on those pitches, as well as pitching to both sides of the plate, in the minors than the majors.
Its a panic move and nothing more.
It is amazing that the same people in the Yankee Organization who deemed him “not ready” a week ago, have now done a complete 180 and people buy it.
I was under the impression his curve was a plus pitch as well, and part of why Posada, Giambi, etc.. have said he has the “best arm in camp” the last 2 years.
For the record, I’m not sure they said he wasn’t ready as much as they said Wright was “the most ready.”
But they did go against the general impression they presented that they wanted to keep Hughes down longer than this. However, if you read the stuff Peter has posted, the quotes from Cashman and Torre from spring training, they haven’t gone back on what they said, which just means they worded what they said carefully enough that this move right now doesn’t contradict it.
They wanted to keep him down there to control his innings and work on some things. let’s not act like he’s here to stay and his career is ruined before the guy has even gotten to the Bronx.
SJ44 – You said the “Yankees themselves” didn’t think Hughes was ready to pitch a week ago and now all of a sudden they do.
Look, the fact is, Hughes had a delivery issue that was worked out with Nardi Contreras and the results last wednesday spoke for themselves. What I’ve heard is that he actually told Cashman that on the phone last week, and basically said, “let’s see if this gets him back on track.” And it did. At that point, everyone in the organization told Cashman the kid was ready. Regardless, he doesn’t need to be ready to win 20 games, he just needs to be able to start a couple of games. If he’s good, they’ll continue to see what they have. If he struggles, and guys start getting healthy, he’ll go back down.
As for Hughes’ “Plus” pitches – he has three – his fastball, his slider, and the curve ball.
And once again – I’ve asked you to respond to what was ACTUALLY said. NOBODY was comparing Hughes, or his stuff, to Johan Santana. Santana was brought up in my post, quite clearly, to address the fact that age has nothing to do with injury risk as Santana has not blown out his elbow.
Again, it had nothing to do with “expectations” about what kind of pitcher Hughes can be. So your entire rant on that subject was pointless. So I say again, please try and stick to what was actually posted.
No team in the majors but the Yankees do what they’re doing? Um, hello? The Oakland A’s, the Minnesota Twins, the Houston Astros, the San franciso Giants, the Anaheim Angels…
Do you even watch baseball?
They aren’t stretching out their young pitchers as early as the Yankees are with Hughes. The times they have, it has been met with failure and those teams have adjusted accordingly.
Take Matt Garza for example. The Twins realized they rushed him and this year he is in AAA building up his pitch count and being stretched out.
Yes, one start fixed “everything”. Ok, fine, you are right.
A team with exactly TWO homegrown successful pitchers in the last 14 years now has it all figured out.
I would venture to say I watch more baseball in a week than others do in a year.
I just don’t buy the party line when its tossed out there.
A 20 year old kid, deemed “not ready” a week ago in AAA, is now “fixed” because he had one good AAA start.
Pardon me for questioning that, given the Yankees record of developing their own starting pitching the last 14 years.
I seriously want to see what happens on this blog if the guy comes up and is lights out. I don’t want this kid to fail, I want him to be what he’s supposed to be. In a perfect world, he can come up this year and throw lights out, rookie of the year and never look back until he retires with a few Cy Youngs, WS rings, etc… and we’ll all say, wow, guess he was ready and didn’t need that innings limit.
In the real world, I just wonder how many people that have been campaigning to keep him down will themselves abandon that theory if he comes out and throughs 7 innings of shut-out baseball and makes the big hurt look like a little boo boo and gets a big win. Not saying anyone should react that way and throw caution to the wind, but it would be interesting to see how they react, just as it is to see all the love for a-rod from some people who hated him just a few weeks ago and who very well may again in a few weeks when he goes 0-4 or 0-10…....
actually, it wouldn’t be interesting at all, just annoying to see how many people flip flop on a minute by minute basis.
I will go on record right now and say, if Hughes pitches well, I still don’t think its a good idea having him in the rotation.
Too many young arms are turning up lame to sell me that its a good idea. Harden, Jason Johnson, King Felix, Jared Weaver, Liriano, just to name a few.
This kid hasn’t pitched enough to be “ready”, IMO. Regardless of what Thursday night may bring.
Whether he is great, awful, or somewhere in between, its the wrong thing to do, IMO.
If he turns out to be a Hall of Famer, I’ll gladly eat crow.
Conversely, if he ends getting hurt or getting pounded, I would expect people who think he is “ready” to do the same. Works both ways, Chris.
SJ44
There is no “party line” to buy.
You’re also confusing “ready” with “ready to pitch 8 shutout innings every time out.”
I’m sorry, but the two aren’t the same thing.
Phil Hughes is ready. When my own eyes validate everything I’ve heard from the most respected scouts in the game, then again, I’m sorry, but I’ll take over your overly-conservative approach that you still haven’t given a valid reason for offering.
Age has nothing to do with development. Talent and intelligence determine how fast a pitcher develops, not age. That’s the way it’s always been.
I EXPECT that Hughes will get rocked. I don’t expect much more than 5 innings, 5 ER. That doesn’t mean he’s not ready, it just means that he needs more experience pitching against major league hitters. Established major league starters get rocked – Roy Oswalt doesn’t shut people out every game. Johan Santana got beat by the Devil Rays this year – and at home, I believe…
There’s a strong possibility that Hughes gets knocked out of the game quite early. But I don’t want to hear that it’s going to affect him mentally – the kid has proven he doesn’t get down on himself or doubt his ability after struggling – he uses it as he should – to learn and build from.
And you keep talking about how the Yankees have “two homegrown” pitchers in the last blah, blah, blah…
Again – it isn’t the Yankees scouts that are important here, it’s scouts from every other Major League organization that are important. And they all say he’s ready. Does he have to be ready to win 20 games? No. He just has to be ready to start a game, because that’s what the Yankees need right now.
I’m not at all saying he’s ready, SJ44, nor am I saying you’ll flip flop… that wasn’t directed at you, you’ve been persistent in this thread that you don’t think he should stay no matter how well he does.
I’m not a pitching coach, nor a scout, so I haven’t a clue whether or not he’s ready. I’ve also said, since the experts think he needs an innings limit, he should get one (again, I’m no expert, so I have no clue if that’s right or wrong).
I also know that even experts can be wrong. Anything can happen. Just as much as they can throw caution out the window and get burned for it, they can also baby the kid till their blue in the face only to have him get hurt in week 2 when the finally bring him up after doing what they thought was best to bring him along slowly.
That’s why life has to play itself out and the fact remains that they have not said, “he’s ready, he’s getting his shot.” All they’ve said is, “our pitching staff is in ruins and we need him to make a start or two. Once he does, we’ll see how things go and see where we’re at with our other pitchers and take it from there.”
I don’t think they’ll throw away the future of the franchise no matter how well he does unless they evaluate something that indicates that keeping him up is the right thing to do for him and the team.
I’ve given you numerous reasons Syracuse why I think its a bad idea. Just because you disagree with them doesn’t diminish the argument.
You can “blah, blah” blah” the fact the Yankees have only had 2 homegrown pitchers make it in the last 14 years all you want. However, it does speak to their lack of development of pitching over that period.
Who are these “all the other teams scouts” that think Hughes is ready? Funny, if they feel that way, they haven’t gone on the record saying so. Perhaps, they “feel” having him called up this early is “the right thing to do” because it gives them a competitive advantage when they face someone this inexperienced. Why does it matter what other scouts think when it comes to the Yankees? Their opinion shouldn’t ever enter into the equation.
The Yankee scouts “don’t matter”? If I recall, Phil Hughes plays in the Yankees organization. Their opinions are the only one’s that matter and they have done a complete 180 on this subject in the last 48 hours.
Do you think if they won 2 of 3 in Boston, Hughes would be pitching Thursday night? I don’t think so, despite his massive “improvement” according to the Yankees, he has had in one week.
You can call it “overly conservative” all you want. However, when you see the number of young pitchers being injured or misused this early in their careers, I’d prefer to call it, “erring on the side of caution”.
We’ll just to agree to disagree on the subject.
Everything happens for a reason. I wish Hughes had a little mor time to get “ready,” too. But, here we go. Thursday night he makes his ML debut. It will be what it will be. Ready or not. Sometimes life just throws you out there. I somehow think he’s handling all this a lot better than some of us fans are.
SJ44 – there are plenty of “scouts” who have gone on record as saying the guy is ready.
And sorry, but just saying “Pitching in the majors is harder on the arm than pitching in the minors” is not legitimate argument. It’s slightly better than just saying “Because”. I’m not disagreeing with your arguments because you haven’t made any.
The number of young pitchers who aren’t injured – and never were injured in these ways far outweighs the number of pitchers you’ve suggested have become injured because they pitched in the majors too soon. In fact, you cant’ point to a SINGLE pitcher, not one pitcher in the history of major league baseball, that you can say hurt his arm specifically because he pitched in the majors too soon. You have no evidence of it.
Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc. After, therefore, because of. That’s the “evidence” you cite as the reason why the guy should pitch longer in the minors. Guys are hurt, they’re young, must be they were called up too soon. What? lol. That wouldn’t hold up in front of a five year old.
And this ridiculous idea that Hughes “doesn’t have to throw his curve ball for strikes” in the minors, but he does in the majors – that wouldn’t even make sense to someone who had seen 1 baseball game in their life. The bottom line is, if you’re not throwing your pitches for strikes, you don’t get called up. Period.
Do I think if the Yankees had won 2 of 3 in Boston Hughes would have been called up? That depends. If Chase Wright pitched well, then no, Hughes probably wouldn’t have been called up. But Wright got hammered. Unless you think the Yankees should just hand a second game away, you need to start another pitcher. That’s common sense.
As far as Hughes being in the Yankee organization, so their scouts are all that matter – again, you’ve completed missed the point and are responding to something that wasn’t said or even implied. Plenty of scouts, baseball journalists, etc., are on record as saying Hughes is ready and he’s been ready for quite a while. Perhaps you don’t pay attention very closely, but that’s the reason Hughes has so much press. The point is, of COURSE Yankee scouts will hype the kid. what’s important are the people outside the organization who have no reason in the world to characterize the guy in a positive way. They’re more objective. I would have thought that point was obvious – but you chose to spin it in a bizarre way as you did the Santana comment.
Again, you have zero evidence that pitching in the majors, throwing the same number of pitches you would have at triple A, at a young age, increases the risk of injury. Basically, pitchers get hurt. It’s not a natural thing for the shoulder and elbow to be doing. So it really doesn’t matter when you get called up in terms of injuries, they’ll either happen or they won’t. And the best way to PREVENT injuries is to throw MORE, not less.
The Yankees didn’t “flip-flop’ over Hughes in 48 hours. THat’s just a complete fabrication. Also, this doesn’t mean that the Yankee organization believes Phil Hughes is good enough right now to pitch 7 shutout innings every start, or post a 3.00 ERA – they need guys to pitch these games. You’re completely blowing this entire thing out of proportion.