Greetings from Gate F-81
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Apr 25, 2007 
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Here we are at the Lee Roy Selmon International Airport in Tampa, hanging out and waiting to go home.
Based on the comments, seems like a few people want Joe Torre fired after 11.7 percent of the season. That would like firing an NFL coach in the third quarter of the second game of the season. Anybody who is in some kind of panic now is embarrassing himself
It’s April 25 and they are four games out of first.
The rotation for much of the season has been Andy Pettitte and assorted scrubs. Perhaps Torre should get a chance to manage his actual team before anybody’s passes judgment.
By June the Yankees could well have a rotation of Chien-Ming Wang, Andy Pettitte, Mike Mussina, Roger Clemens and Phil Hughes. Sub Jeff Karstens for Clemens and that still is pretty good.
Meanwhile, I’m told there are 5,000 tickets available to see Phil Franchise tomorrow if you’re interested in going. I tend to not watch every game when I am off but I’m looking forward to watching the kid pitch.
Does anybody know if ESPN is going to cover Phil Franchise’s game ?
It’s on UPN9 in NY. Peter thanks for being the voice of reason. Things are a bit ugly now, but that will hopefully just help the Yankees build character as they come back atop the standings. The pieces are there, they just have to put them together.
Well said, Peter. All Torre has done is put the Yanks in the playoffs every year since 1996, in the glare of the New York spotlight. Only current manager with a better record is Bobby Cox, and he has three fewer WS titles. Sure there are valid criticisms of his managing style, but you could say that about any manager.
Torre has made some bad mistakes (pitching Proctor with a 7 run lead with a Red Sox series coming up) and he panicked by trying to get 2 innings out of Rivera after six months of saying he was a one inning man. But right now the main problem is starting pitching injuries. How much is Torre’s fault is debatable. Did he have anything to do with hiring an inexperienced training coach? Don’t fire him but don’t offer him any $7 million a year extensions.
it’s a little to early to fire torre or maybe we should fire jose viscaino for pitching every batter 2-0 before giving up the hit or walk . thank you mike meyers for not being able to get left handed hitters . i thought that was your job but , i guess not . ( sean henn got ortiz out while meyers gave up the grand salami to carl crawford and the big double to ” big sloppy ” )
Amen Pete, Amen.
I’ll be at the game to watch Hughes pitch, looking forward to it, hopefully a worthwhile piece of history to tell the grandkids about if this kid turns into the Cy Young/HOF-er he projects to be….
“The pieces are there, they just have to put them together.”
That’s the problem. The pieces are not there in the bullpen. If Vizcaino is your main set-up guy, the pen is in gigantic trouble. The guy flat out stinks. Falls behind every hitter and is a chronic nibbler. Proctor had 1/2 of one season where he was decent…the rest of his career he was mediocre at best. Farnsy is MIA. Myers has proven he can’t be trusted to do his only job of getting lefties out. So that leaves Henn and Bruney…
In all honesty, we cannot blame the bullpen. They were doing a hell of a job for us from the start, and due to being overworked a bit, early on in the season, they’ve started giving up hits and runs.
Remember, they’ve been called upon almost every night so far, and usually in the 4th inning and up.
I bet the cold weather had a lot to do with the injuries, but hopefully we’ll get Moose back next week, we’ll have Pettitte, Wang, Moose going, and Karstens, Hughes, or whoever filling out the last few spots.
O yea, thanks about that ticket info. Pete. I’m heading home to see the Sox-Yanks on Friday, but I’m leaving tomorrow. So, hopefully I’ll get to the park to see the Prince.
I’ll play along for the sake of discussion purposes.
Pete, what happens if they go 0-homestand, and Monday morning, they are in the midst of a 10 game losing streak?
That would make them 2-13 vs the AL East, and 0-6 vs. the Red Sox this year.
If, and notice I say IF that happens, do you really see Torre surviving that? Honestly, I don’t.
I can’t envision a scenario in which he can survive the above example.
Understand, I am NOT wishing for that to happen. All I am saying is, he isn’t out of the woods, SHOULD that happen.
Plus, we really have to can the injury excuse. Even with injuries, they are the more talented team in just about every game they have played this year. They have not played to their levels at all this year. That is troubling.
That has to fall on the manager at some point.
For those of us who would like to see a change in the position, its really based on the totality of what we have seen this season. You can say, “its early”. You can say, “they are injured”. However, his in game decisionmaking is so bad right now, its becoming comical.
My only point in this is, I don’t believe he is bulletproof. Who knows, he may be.
However, if he goes 0-homestand, and is in the midst of a ten game losing streak, excuses aside, do you really think he will survive that? I don’t.
The fact we are even having this discussion about this team should tell you trouble is brewing. Now, we have to see if they can bail themselves out of this mess.
I didn’t get to watch the game last night, but got home late and read through the comments here. Holy cow, people are pissed! I thought it might just be frustration boiling over from the weekend, but nomaas has called for Joe’s head as well.
Yankeeland has turned into Gotham City. The formerly happy villagers are pouring out onto the streets with pitchforks and torches. Not Good.
I personally don’t think Torre has been a good in-game manager since Zim left, but there is something to be said for Torre’s management of the Media and his insulating presence. Remember when Zim ran the team for a month when Joe has Cancer? That was an absolute circus show! Imagine what this bad run would be like WITHOUT Torre – We’d *might* have 2 more wins, but complete mayhem in the organization and on the field.
Joe needs help with in game management as his moves have been indefensible. It doesn’t look like he is taking advice from Mattingly or Guidry, and if he is, neither of them belong in the dugout(It pains me greatly to even think that given they are my 2 favorite Yankees).
I would love to see a solution worked out where the bench coach (a la Zimmer) is once again calling the shots in the dugout while Joe is the public face of the team. I just don’t see that as politically feasible.
Peter, do you have any feel for how active Donnie Baseball is in his position? We have so much experience on this coaching staff, yet very little in the dugout (aside from Joe).
I think Joe’s time has come and gone, but we’re almost .500 with a Scranton pitching staff. I think we have to be patient and take our pill for another month.
A Mojo replacement would be better than a manager replacement right now.
Maybe this is the curse of Bernie?
I hear the weather isn’t supposed to be so god the next few days. Rain in thew forecast til Saturday. Hope Hughes’s debut isn’t rained out.
Yankee fans need to relax and abandon their “sky is falling” mentality for risk of sounding like skittish Bosox fans. It’s April for cryin’ out loud. Remember how Jeter started his ’04 season by going 0 for April? Remember how he finished: 23, 78, .292 ? Finishing strong is all we should care about. In the meantime, take it all in stride like you’ve seen it all before.
The calls for him to be fired are not based on 11% of the season. He is not a new manager; he has a long body of work to be judged by, and to be used to project how he will handle the rest of the season. And, besides, its times like this that a manager is truly tested – not the times when everyone is healthy and things are going swimmingly.
i don’t want torre fired mid-season, but this pinch running nonsense has to stop.
it’s too dumb for words.
the batter that hit in the 9th inning last night were a completely avoidable disgrace.
so idiotic.
i would have let Wang pitch out of the jam last night. unless you are bringing in Mo, Wang is the best pitcher available. if that run on 3B scores, so be it.
torre went nuts trying to preserve the 3-2 lead, but at that point, the lead was already gone. why use inferior pitchers to get the last 2 outs?? let your best pitcher go at it, and if he gives up 2 runs there, it’s not the end of the world.
i don’t have a huge problem with the fact that myers blew the game, once you are into the bullpen, myers is the guy to face crawford.
but the pinch running has to end. you can’t take Phelps and Damon out of a game where they may hit again. you just can’t. melky and mientkiewicz are AUTOMATIC outs at this point. it’s just really, really dumb.
What? Zimmer calling the shots?
Zimmer NEVER called the shots when he was their bunch coach.
He managed a few games when Torre was tossed or when he was treated for prostate cancer, but to say he called the shots in any way is absurd.
He ran ideas past Torre when he had them and was Torre’s top General on the team. That’s it.
That’s the first time I’ve ever heard that rumor about Zimmer during his time with the Yanks.
It’s funny how one assumes that a 5-game losing streak could very well turn into a 10-game losing streak.
This isn’t the Cubs or the D-Rays of old.
I can’t believe you would even suggest such a scenario because that is so absurd.
Please. Untie the noose and take a Xanax.
That would be BENCH COACH in above post.
Although, a bunch coach would be a tough job too.
hmmm,
That’s the move (the pinchrunning mistake AGAIN) that frosts me from last night.
He didn’t learn from Friday night’s gaffe.
That’s my big complaint with him. He doesn’t learn from mistakes. Just keeps making them over and over.
Its easy to say, “its injuries”, “its early”, etc. You can add cliches all you want. The man has done an AWFUL job this year with this team.
From Day One, this team has not played crisp baseball. Even with the injuries, they are the more talented team in just about every game they play. Yet, they play down to their competition on a nightly basis.
If it isn’t his responsibility to make good decisions on the bench, have his team physically fit (another discussion for another day), and have his team prepared to play (another thing. How many more 0-2, and 1-2 basehits does a pitching staff have to give up before you change pitching patterns?) then why, is he being paid $7 million bucks a year?
What’s his job? Fill out the lineup card? Talk to Kim Jones? What exactly, is his job if it isn’t making in game moves, having his team ready to play, etc.
Everybody defending him keeps telling me those things “aren’t his job”.
Its frustrating to watch a very talented team lose every night and lose the same way.
Hopefully it changes. But, its been my experience things don’t just magically change. You have to push things.
If they go 0-homestand, even Joe’s staunchist supporters may have to concede its time for a change.
It’s April. If it was August/September (like it was for the Red Sox last year) I would worry.
This team is too good. Maybe Bernie for Melky however….
anaconda,
I did not mean to start rumors or imply that Zim was the secret manager of the team. I think Joe greatly respected Zim and trusted his advice more than anyone since. Maybe they were just a great team. No rumors, just observation and opinion (if you want to call BS on me, that’s fine).
I’m not the only one who shares this opinion though.
I’m not at all worried about this team. The offense is on pace for over 1000 runs. They’ve outscored every other team in baseball. They just need to stabilize their starting pitching, which is already starting to happen with the return of Wang, next week’s return of Moose, and the arrival of Hughes tomorrow. Once the rotation gets back to semi-normal, that will take a lot of the load off of the BP.
I think the Yankees’ rough start is mostly due to bad luck. Not just the injuries, but the fact that they’ve been burned by some incredibly untimely big hits off of Rivera (Scutaro and Crisp) and Myers (Crawford). Those three late-inning blasts alone (although Crisp’s triple wasn’t even that hard-hit) cost them 3 games. But for those hits, their W-L record would be 11-8 instead of 8-11. Mo will inevitably blow a half-dozen saves this year and it was the Yankees’ misfortune that he happened to blow two in one week. Myers made a bad pitch to a hot hitter at the wrong time. It happens.
It’s apparent from watching the games that 8-11 is NOT an accurate reflection of this team’s actual strength. I mean, c’mon, they lost three games in Boston by a total of four runs, with two of those games being started by subs.
I’m not wearing rose-colored glasses here. I genuinely do not see any problem with this team that some healthy starting pitching and a reasonable sample size of games will not correct. Isn’t that why they play 162 games?
I think that it’s important to look at the entire coaching staff here, too. Torre clearly gets the blame for the questionable pitching changes and pinch running decisions that he’s made the first three weeks of the season, but what about his bench coaches? Bowa has done good work with Cano and Pena has improved Posada on defense, but what Mattingly and Guidry? Sure, they were both great Yankees, but shouldn’t a team with as many resources as the Yankees be hiring the absolute best to fill these crucial positions? Or do people think that these coaching positions should just be sinecures for former Yankee greats? This goes beyond Torre; our coaches seem overmatched.
Pete – A question:
The Yankees have said they didn’t want Phil Hughes to pitch against Red Sox on Friday. There is a pretty good chance his debut game Thursday could be a rain-out. What then?
Ideally, no one wants Phil to have trial-by-fire against the Red Sox, but I would think unless they send him right back to Scranton (to keep on some kind of schedule) they’re going to have to do just that — he’ll face the Red Sox. What do you think?
For the record, I have been critical of Torre’s bullpen management for several years, but have also acknowledged him for the managerial strengths that he’s showed as the Yankees manager. Even his in game strategies are normally sound. Pinch running for Giambi was something very common last year. The difference was that the bullpen held last year and it didn’t come back to bite us in the a$$.
I wouldn’t fire Torre after such a small sampling, but “SJ44″ brings up an interesting scenario ( 0 for the Homestand). If “General George” still has a firm grip on the Team and shows the impatience of years past, than Joe Torre is history. If Cash is wielding the power, cooler heads will prevail Torre likely will stay.
And, please, DFAing Mike Myers is not gonna solve our problems. Sure he can’t get Ortiz out (how many lefties can in late innings?) and Crawford hit a mistake, but, ironically, he’s the 2nd most effective pitcher out of the pen right now!
This lynch mob against Myers because he “can’t get lefties out” is ridiculous.
Sure, Papi and Crawford hits off him — but they are also both All-Stars who can hit any left-hander in the game.
Myers’ ERA after last night’s game is 2.25. Only Sean Henn has a lower ERA in the pen.
Once the starters return from injury, the Yanks will actually have two pretty good options from the left side if Henn continues to pitch well.
I agree with the pinch running comments. If Giambi’s going to DH, no way do you pull him for a runner. And either sit Damon or play him the whole game. If he’s not healthy, don’t prolong it by playing him 6 innings.
Torre should be fired. He should have been fired after batting Arod 8th in the playoffs.
It is very easy to manage a baseball team when you have a great lineup and 3-4 legit number one starters and MO, Nelson, and Stanton in their prime in the bullpen. Sheesh give me that team and I even I can win 90 games.
Now that he actually has to manage the team and not just let talented players play, We see exactly what he is, “CLUELESS JOE” There is a reason that he was a .500 manage everywhere else until he came to the Yankees. He overuses his bullpen. He doesnt trust his starters. He pinch runs and pinch hits at the worst times. His in game strategy is Horrendus. When Damon doestn play he bats Melky leadoff, now I like Melky, but how do you give the worst hitter in the lineup the most at bats?
My biggest peave about Torre is this thing about not hitting batters. Jeter and Arod both get hit, and Wright gives up 4 HR’s in a row, how does not one batter get dropped? If Pinnela was the manager (I dont want him by the way), after Drew hit the HR, Varitek would have been lying flat on his back. Manny is hitting like .500 vs the Yankees but no one ever makes him move his feet.
The only thing Torre does well is manage egos and the press. Which is fine, but the yankees need a manager with guts. Torre has none. And i will tell you the day I realized it. It was the day Pedro drilled Soriano and Jeter to starte the game. No payback, Manny never got a pitch close to the inside corner. All you people Defending him saying, icluding you pete, that weve played 11% of the games need to look back at history. This is not just this year. This is the pattern of recent history.
I agree that the pinch running nonsense has to stop.
One of the benefits of having Giambi as the full-time DH is that you shouldn’t have to sacrifice his ABs in the late innings just to get a more reliable glove in the field.
It’s one thing to pinch run for the guy if it’s the 8th or 9th inning and need a run to tie.
It’s quite another to be ahead by a handful of runs (like against the Sox on Friday night) and lift him for the sake of lifting him.
Haven’t we learned by now that, where Sox-Yankees games are concerned, no lead is ever realy safe for either team?
If Torre feels his team needs to pile on runs (and with this pitching staff, it does) then the best way to pile on those runs is to keep the best hitters in the lineup.
Just because you’re dealt pocket aces doesn’t mean you’re a good poker player.
The same could be said with Joe Torre and his 12 years with the Yankees.
Just my opinion, but I think Torre tends to shy away from drilling opposing hitters because of the media sh**storm that ensued after Clemens drilled Piazza in the coconut.
That was such a nightmare for both Clemens and Torre and the story didn’t go away for over a year — with the whole thing coming to a ridiculous head in the World Series.
I think that incident will always be in the back of Torre’s mind and he would prefer to win the game than having his pitcher drill someone again.
I think we should remember just too years ago the Yankees got off to an 11-19 start. Plenty of Yankee haters in the media were giddy with joy. Chris Russo was saying it was 1965 again. Bill Madden thought it was 1982. Mike Greenberg of “NESN2 Radio” was saying how he was laughing himself silly. Mike Lupica was writing three columns a week on how the Yankees were finished until the day the Yankees clinched the AL East under Joe Torre’s leadership.
I thought they should have replaced Torre with Piniella but they decided not to. So let’s give the guy some time. But it wouldn’t hurt to have someone Joe respects (Frank Torre?) whisper in his ear to drop the pinch running nonsense and save the useful bullpen members.
“Torre should be fired. He should have been fired after batting Arod 8th in the playoffs.”
Actually, he should have been fired for bringing in Jeff Weaver in game 4 of the 2003 World Series instead of Rivera. It’s fascinating (but disheartening) to read Pete defending the guy, probably just because he’s treated well by him in media sessions.
Enough with the hitting batters already!!! It shouldn’t be the managers call. The pitcher is the one who needs to make the decision based on the game situation to send a message and protect his teammates. I remember reading something about Mussina a few years ago that talked about how he threw at someone and got injured on the pitch and he swore he would never do it again. Seems like its just not the style of the Yankee pitchers in the past few years to come in high and tight to someone to send a message.
C’mon guys. Torre didn’t get fired after losing in the first round to the Tigers, and that was October. If he doesn’t lose his job for that, there’s no way he loses his job for some losing streak in April.
And you know what? If Torre was such a lousy manager, then why did he do better 1996-2000, before the Yanks became a full-on All Star team? Since 2000, as we’ve piled on big names and bigger contracts, Torre hasn’t brought in a ring. If this was nothing but players’ ability, then Jeter should have another half-dozen rings on his fingers.
I mean, I can’t wait to see Mattingly sitting in Joe’s spot, but that’s just because Donnie Baseball is my favorite ball player. But Torre is the manager for the rest of the season, so there’s no use griping about it.
Plus, it really is just April. Yeah, Spring losses count as much as September ones. But April losses are absolutely no reason to fire the guy who’s managed your team for a decade, and gotten them into the playoffs every single season. That’s just insane, and the disruption it would cause in the clubhouse would destroy any advantage you could possibly get from a “better” manager.
You guys are starting to give Torre the A-Rod treatment. Give it a rest already.
Donnie is my all time favorite player too, but I don’t think he’s ready for the big chair. In fact if Torre gets fired, it most likely would be Larry Bowa or Tony Pena who took over or possibly Girardi. All are insiders, you think any of them will be able to make the AAA starters better or fix Mo Rivera and his minions? I don’t. Torre deserves the full year, this is why he is here to calmly get us through the down turns. He does it every year. It is actually good for a team to rise up through the adversity. If they lose before the world series I guess then I would admit it was time to move on, bu he gets the full year. You bitchers are better off accepting that now and not wasting so much energy creating a lynch mob.
Question.
If a manager of a team was 3-10 in his last 13 playoff games, currently has his team in last place with a 5 game losing streak, how many people would say that manager deserves to keep his job?
Those are Joe Torre’s numbers folks.
It is what it is at this point. I am not even going to bring it up anymore.
New game tonight and here’s hoping using Andy Pettitte out of the bullpen twice in April hasn’t lessened his effectiveness. Another clueless move, BTW.
We are fast entering “must win” territory for the man to keep his job.
Not even Joe Torre will survive if this losing streak keeps growing.
I’m not asking for Torre to be fired. I’m asking for Torre to adapt his managing style to the challenges he’s currently facing. Is that too much to ask?
Q) What is the Yankees goal every year?
A) To win the World Series!!
Q) How many years has it been since they last won a world Series?
A) Seven Years!!
Q) Would you still have your job if you failed Seven Years in a row?
As far as “deserving”, no, Joe Torre doesn’t “deserve” the full year.
He should be judged like any other manager is judged. By the results of the season he is in. Its not a charity.
If the team straightens out, he deserves the credit and he deserves to stay on.
If the team continues to lose, he deserves to be fired.
They are too talented to be this bad. Injuries are just an excuse.
Bill Madden was on TV last night and he said nobody in the bullpen knows their roles. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for the manager and the pitching coach.
Watching the games, its obvious he is spot on with his assessment.
Now, if he got that from the players, and not his own personal observation, then Torre and Guidry are on borrowed time. I don’t know where he got the info though.
You judge Torre on the results in front of you. If they are good enough for him to stay, he stays. If they aren’t, he goes.
He doesn’t “deserve” any more than that. Staying on after the 2004 debacle and last year were his “gifts”. Now, its about getting the job done and no excuses.
“And you know what? If Torre was such a lousy manager, then why did he do better 1996-2000, before the Yanks became a full-on All Star team? Since 2000, as we’ve piled on big names and bigger contracts, Torre hasn’t brought in a ring. If this was nothing but players’ ability, then Jeter should have another half-dozen rings on his fingers.”
this is a horrible argument. this romantic notion that the 1996-2001 Yankees were not a collection of all-stars, that they were a collection of team-first egoless small-ball playing scrappers is absurd.
they were still a group of all-stars and future hall of famers or borderline hall of famers. what, b/c they played Shane Spencer in LF that qualifies those teams as not full of big names? or is the big difference for people that they had Brosius instead of A-Rod who makes a lot of money??
Jeter, Bernie, Rivera, Cone, Pettitte, Posada, Clemens, Wells, Stanton, Nelson, O’Neill, Tino, Boggs, Key, Knoblaugh, Raines, Strawberry, Chili Davis
these guys were all all-stars, and 4-7 of them will wind up in the Hall of Fame.
the difference between those teams and now is that those teams had better pitching. if you gave this team the pitching staff from the 1998-1999 yankees, they might never lose a game.
lizziemcguire:
“Actually, he should have been fired for bringing in Jeff Weaver in game 4 of the 2003 World Series instead of Rivera.”
Mo Rivera pitched 2 innings the night before, it’s a tie game ON THE ROAD, so you don’t bring Rivera in! Since Nelson and Contreras already appeared, Torre had two other options besides Weaver – Chris Hammond or one of the starters.
I agree, however, that Weaver was not a good option – primarily because of how he was used prior to that appearance. (He hadn’t pitched in 28 days!)
To say that Torre should be fired for batting ARod 8th in last year’s ALDS is dumb. No one critizes Joe Torre for batting Giambi 7th against Boston in Game 7 of the 2004 ALCS, after batitng him 3rd in the first 6 games. Why? Because he had 2 HRs off of Pedro and the Yankees won!
Torre needs to go. His bullpen management is the worst since Dusty Baker. He burns out quality arms year after year and refuses to replace them. He has no concept of in game strategy and his leadership skills seem to have eroded without Zim. The Pro-Torre camp cites 96-00 and his handling of major egos as the main reasons he needs to be here. However, I agree with the poster above that he had 3-4 aces in the rotation, a shut-down bull-pen and several young borderline MVPs in the lineup. Not anyone would have had his success but I’m sure there are a few. And to the second point about Torre’s clubhouse abilities. A-Rod seems to be the only HUGE ago/potential head case left in the locker room…and he probably hates Torre. So what’s the value there? Damon, Jeter , Abreu, Pettite, Rivera, Posada, Matsui, Wang…even Giambi…not a single one of them is a me first type player. There is no Sheffield, Wells, Randy Johnson type player in that club house.
And to those that discredit Mattingly and Guidry’s contributions…The Yankees players all credit Mattingly with their exemplary offensive seasons last year. His progression to Bench Coach was really just a way of saying “You’re Next.” I’m sure that is why they didn’t go out of their way to get an experienced major league hitting coach. Wang nearly won a Cy Young and Mussina was dominant during stretches when healthy last year and the rest of the rotation was beyond help and injured.
The season isn’t over and I think the Yanks will have both the best record in the AL East and one of the most complete pitching staffs by season’s end. However, they will fail miserably in the post-season due to Torre’s inability to manage. Maybe the Yanks should pull a Lamoriello and Fire Torre right before the playoffs start.
BTW-Someone please consider replacing Myers with Igawa in the bullpen. He can’t be that much worse and at least he can give you some length and maybe his “deceptiveness” will translate better in the later innings similar to the Japanese lefty boston got.
“Mo Rivera pitched 2 innings the night before, it’s a tie game ON THE ROAD, so you don’t bring Rivera in!”
nonsense.
this is just plain wrong.
if the other team scores, the GAME IS OVER.
you CANNOT lose the game without letting the best reliever in the history of the game sit in the bullpen.
you let rivera go as long as he can, b/c every zero he puts up, your team has a chance to bat again. if you score a run and need someone to close it out, you deal with that situation IF it comes up. losing the game BEFORE you have a chance to get to that situation is stupid.
and what are you saving Rivera’s arm for?? it’s the World Series.
“you CANNOT lose the game without letting the best reliever in the history of the game sit in the bullpen.”
WHILE letting the best reliever….
Hmmmmm:
you answered your own question. The obvious answer is the pitching. Now that Torre actaully has to manage a pitching staff instead of having the best staff in baseball we see that he is terrible at making pitching decisions.
He should have been gone after 2004. When he started El Duque anyway after the rain out instead of Starting Mooose on Regular rest. He should have been fired after 2005 when they couldnt get beat the Angels, He should have been fired last year for not having Wang availble to pitch because they sent him back to NYC. I will ask the question again, if your employee fails to meet the company goals for seven years in a row, count them seven years in a row, should he keep his job?
1) Fire Joe? Don’t fire Torre until you’ve got a better short-term option, who can handle pitching staff. Do you? Girardi? Perhaps, as you listen to him do color and he’s got an instant diagnostic on every pitcher that comes to the mound you have to think he could make a difference. Do we have this insight with Guidry? Doubtful.
Fire Guidry? Don’t fire Guidry unless you have a better short-term option. Do you? Joe Kerrigan? Perhaps he can be Girardi-like in his assessments and impact. Why isn’t he doing it all ready? Are they listening to him? Who knows?
DFA Myers and shake up the pen? Don’t wholesale shake-up the relief staff unless you have better options. Do you? As Myers is only there to get out elite lefties, that failure is more important than his ERA (Last night’s slam only dinged his ERA for 1 run – see hoe irrelevant that stat is?)
Alternatives? More innings from Wang, Mussina and possibly Clemens? Potentially a great help in resting the bullpen.
Can they survive until then? If not I vote for sacking Myers and Guidry. Moving Kerrigan to Pitching Coah and making Giraridi Super Bullpen/”Battery” coach
lizziemcguire and SJ44:
Are you familiar with the adage about beating the dead horse? Didn’t think so.
Enough with the Torre treats the media well crap b/c it is tired and not even correct. There was an article about Torre last year that portrayed him as being very prickly with the media and writers whom he did not respect. He basically will freeze out anyone that doesn’t play by his rules. Watch how he treats the asinine questions that Kim Jones asks on the YES postgame and you’ll see how cuddly Joe T. is.
As for SJ44′s hypothetical ten game losing streak – give it a rest as your blood pressure is spiking as I type this. Relax, exhale, have a nice cup of tea (maybe green like Torre), or a beer and realize that this team is not going to lose five more games in a row. Mark it down, chicken little.
I was trying to make the point about Torre being tested before, and others have made it with more clarity here.
“It’s not Torre’s fault that starting/relief pitching is in trouble” misses the point. A manager’s actual, in-game managing skills (you know, the stuff that managers are paid millions of dollars to do) *only become really important when there are tough decisions to be made*. I can’t stress this more.
There are tough decisions to be made because the Yankees have serious problems with their starting pitchers and no reliable pinch-hitters. Torre’s job is come up with *creative* solutions to these problems. He fails to do so when he sticks to his tired old strategies of using his favorite relievers every day, or when he pulls the starter in a borderline situation to put in one of those favorite relievers. He also fails to solve his team’s problems when he insists on putting our horrendous bench players into the game in close-and-late situations.
In addition, we seem to be losing all of our games by one or two runs. Close games, unlike blowouts, can be won or lost by managers. We are losing many more close games than we are winning, in part because Torre does things like giving us a lineup of Cano-Melky-Mientkiewicz in the top of the ninth when we are down two runs.
In short, Torre is being tested, maybe like he’s never been tested before. On an almost daily basis he reveals an unwillingness to deviate from strategies that only work when you have an effective rotation, a rested pen, and a strong bench. Like I’ve said before, he shows an inability to adapt to the fact that we no longer have those strengths.
Torre deserves scrutiny, and possibly termination, *precisely* because of the team’s problems with starting pitching and its bench.
Bring on Joe Girardi. What have we got to lose? It’s not like he’s some hack [unlike Torre most would argue these days] since he did win NL Manager of the Year with the Marlins and in his first year as manager too. Even in his commentary on YES, you can tell by the tone in his voice that he’s just as baffled as everyone else.
“1) Fire Joe? Don’t fire Torre until you’ve got a better short-term option, who can handle pitching staff.”
Joe Torre cannot handle a pitching staff either and is becoming very well known for it. A cardboard cut-out of a baseball manager could handle a pitching staff better.
Nothing wrong with my blood pressure at all.
He’s got 5 games on this homestand to save his job. If you think he can lose all 5 and keep his job, ok.
Even those who are Pro-Torre can acknowledge he is fast reaching a point of no return.
If you don’t think the team has underachieved this year, that’s fine. We can agree to disagree.
Let’s hope he rights the ship because as Micheal Ray Richardson once said, “The ship, it’d be sinkin’”.
Last night, even if Cano had gotten on base in the 9th, they would have been faced with three automatic outs in a row with Melky, Minky and Cairo. Now you can blame Minky and Cairo and Cashman’s team-building and Torre’s pinch-running, but Melky’s vanishing swing has also played a big role in collapse. Remember how Melky held the offense together last summer? Had he been hitting like this, the team would have been burried by the All Star break.
Suzyn Waldman summed of the bullpen problem pretty well. Most relievers will have a bad day every 4 or 5 outings. If your starters are going only 4 innings, you’ll need to bring out 4-5 relievers a day, so the odds are that one of them will be having an off day. So the blame really sits on the rotation.
It should have been clear that Wang would not be an inning eater in his first start. Hughes won’t be either. So until next week (Wang’s next appearance), Pettitte will still be the only pitcher giving more that 6 innings. That rainy forcast is starting to look tempting. I hope it bumps Karstens. There is no way he can keep the ball in the park against Boston. (Note that his last year’s successes were all against power-free teams.)
I just don’t think that the team is going to lose 10 games in a row, so Joe getting fired isn’t even an issue. I like Torre but do agree that he has made some questionable moves, especially lately. No one is immune from criticism, but laying all of the blame on the manager is ridiculous and short-sighted. Torre deserves his share of criticism as his late-inning subs have been terrible, but the players have to get it done, plain and simple. He has managed in panic mode a few times, but I will never criticize him for smelling that win in Boston and bringing Mo in for five outs. It would be one thing if he blew the save getting the last two outs, but he was ineffective right away so Torre’s use of him for five out is a non issue. I also agree that Torre likes to load up on certain relievers workloads, but ALL of those guys have regularly had extensive workloads before coming to New York. He was using them the same way that they had been used in the past, most times successfully, sometimes not. Thems are the breaks…..
Dan,
The Waldman point is interesting, especially when you consider that, for much of April the pen was exceeding every reasonable expectation, consistently giving us 4+ innings of scoreless ball and keeping games close. At this point it looks like the pen’s luck has simply run out.
SJ44:
I agree with a lot of what you say. But referencing Bill Madden? The next time he talks to one of the relievers will be the first time.
rbizzler,
The workloads Torre puts on his favorite relievers are unique in baseball. A member of Torre’s circle of trust can easily expect to pitch 90-100 innings a season. As I posted earlier, Luis “Daily” Vizcaino is in line to far surpass his typical appearances and innings totals for a season, even if his workload decreases dramatically in the coming months.
If Torre continues to manage the pen as he currently does, the pen will be shot in the late season. And I by “shot,” I mean not just ineffective, but injured.
Jeremy,
That is not substantiated by any reals facts. People were harping on Torre’s use of guys like Karsay and Quantrill last night and the numbers just don’t support the fact that Torre used them significantly more than their previous managers. Viz is the same way – he didn’t get the nickname “everyday” for nothing. Projections are worthless, as right now Arod is on pace to hit 100+ bombs and drive in 200 runs. Is that gonna happen, no. Is Viz going to pitch 100+ innings, no. Who would you rather see in there as everyone has been worked due to the starters ineffectiveness?
“He’s got 5 games on this homestand to save his job. If you think he can lose all 5 and keep his job, ok.”
even if the yankees lose the next 5 i would be SHOCKED if torre was fired after 25 games. i just don’t see it happening.
“Now you can blame Minky and Cairo and Cashman’s team-building and Torre’s pinch-running, but Melky’s vanishing swing has also played a big role in collapse.”
but there was NO reason for Melky to be in the game.
I guess my question got lost in allt he “fire Joe Torre”/”don’t fire Joe Torre” debate (which I’m staying clear of).
The question was, if Hughes’ start gets rained out tomorrow, will he pitch against the Red Sox on Friday even though the Yankees have said they don’t want to do that?
Oh, and the second part to my question is if they don’t start Hughes on Thursday (because of rain), do they send him back to Scranton to pitch on a regular schedule?
No way do you let him anywhere NEAR a start against the Red Sox. You can’t send him back down and bring him up again for a couple of weeks so I would say if the game gets rained out, leave him in the bullpen and use him in case of emergency. If it fails you can go down and get a fresh arm from Scranton (like Olendorf or Steven Jackson). If he succeeds, give him a start over Karstens.
My guess is, if Hughes’ start gets rained out, he won’t pitch against the Red Sox.
The problem, and folks can correct me if I am wrong, is if they decide to send Hughes back to AAA (if there is a rainout) he can’t be recalled for another 10 days.
That begs the question of who takes the spot in the rotation? If Moose is back, that question is answered.
However, what if Igawa and/or Karstans get rocked in their next starts? Do they send Hughes down? Or, do they send Igawa and/or Karstans and give Hughes a start?
Interesting questions abound if there is a rainout tomorrow night.
rbizzler,
“That is not substantiated by any reals facts. People were harping on Torre’s use of guys like Karsay and Quantrill last night and the numbers just don’t support the fact that Torre used them significantly more than their previous managers.”
I guess the accuracy of your statement depends on what you mean by “significantly more.” I think using a reliever at least 10 innings more than their previous all-time high for innings constitutes “significantly more” use.
Torre did this with Quantrill and Gordon. I would say that his use of these players was out of line with their usage under previous managers. He also used Proctor for 102 innings last season, which just plain boggles the mind.
While I fully expect ARod to drive in 300 runs (just 200? please), I understand your concern about the use of projections for Vizcaino’s innings, which is why I noted that he is still on track to break his previous record of 81.3 innings (set in 2002) even with a dramatic decrease in workload. Granted, “dramatic decrease” is just as subjective as “substantially more,” but think about it this way – Proctor, Gordon, and Quantrill all pitched more than 81.3 innings in their top usage years as Yankees, and Torre has shown a willingness to use Vizcaino very frequently (he has 13 appearances in just 19 games). I think it’s a safe bet that Vizcaino will break his old workload records, unless he breaks something else first.
The “who else is there to use?” question is a good one but it becomes less fair every day, because Torre’s strategy of using several relievers each day, rather than letting starters go longer and having relievers pitch in long relief gives us fewer and fewer options.
Doreen, that’s a good question re what happens to Hughes if it rains. They do have an off day on Monday. Pettitte should be Tuesday and I believe Moose is lined up to pitch Wed. I actually think Hughes will stay in the rotation and pitch next Thursday. Problem is if Hughes debuts Friday then under my scenario Karstens is out of the rotation without getting another start unless they skip Igawa. Answer is I think if he gets rained out he will go back to Scranton to start to give Karstens another start.
Anyone else wish Zimmer was still here?
Pete:
What are the reasons that Clemens would join the Yanks instead of the Red Sox. I’m curious why you seem so sure he’s going to commit to the Yanks…
Chicago Dave-
Easy. He hates Boston. He wants to win. He wants to be a #1 (which he wouldn’t be with DiceK and the Sock in Beantown). He wants run support. Andy Pettite. Joe Torre. Brian Cashman. Money (Yanks have a lot less committed to their rotation). George Steinbrenner. Derek Jeter. He has every reason to come back to NYC and win another ring, which would probably be enough to get a Yankees cap on his head during the HOF induction ceremony.
Other than the full circle angle, I don’t see why he’d go to Boston to play in a hitters park with an offense that is ONE injury away from being near the worst in the division.
Jeremy,
Quantrill had pitched 76+ innings in six of the seven years prior to joining the Yanks, so i am not sure that Joe T. put him under any strain that he was not used to. He was also 34 and 35 years old when he was in New York, not exactly a spring chicken.
As for Gordon, although he did have heavy workloads under Torre, he put up exceptional numbers for the two years that he was here. It is not Joe T.’s fault that he was puking in the bullpen during the ’04 ALCS. I don’t really care what he has done since he left, but he was pretty effective for Philly last year at age 38 (that’s right he is 39 now!).
All of this crap will even out once we get a decent starting pitching performance (or if we get one). And Torre can establish some sort of regular rotation in the ‘pen. I actually think that this is the deepest pen we have had in years, but they have been put under the gun way too often so far (which is only partially Torre’s fault).
SJ44 – you are correct. If they send Hughes back to Scranton, they cannot recall him for 10 days. That’s fine if their original intent was to fill a spot until Mussina returned. If Hughes’ game is rained out, and if Mussina comes back in time for his next spot, technically, they won’t need Hughes, and I think they should send him back to get regular work.
But if what they really want to do is bring Hughes up for good, that’s a different story. I wouldn’t guess you’d want to use him out of the pen, though. It just seems to me this should not be that sort of arrangement. Frankly, given the way things are spun by management, I wouldn’t be surprised if they did start Hughes on Friday, and say something about, well, this wasn’t what we planned, but who can predict the weather? Or something like that.
rbizzler,
I have some minor disagreements with you but the major issues we both agree on is the pen is really good and that the rotation has to get better.
Phew, now I can get back to my research paper. I hope the boys get it done tonight so all of this insanity will stop.
The fire Torre crowd is almost as worse as the trade A Rod crowd.
And knowing the jerks in here its probably 2 guys signing on 20 dif names.
Post the IP addresses to snuff these jokers out.
It isn’t going to rain in the Bronx tomorrow night.
The Yankees are not going to lose 10 straight.
Joe is not going to be fired.
The Yankees will not stay in last place long.
Jeter’s power will come back.
Melky sucks.
Arod will belt 60+ HRs
The starters will get better and healthier.
The bullpen will get some rest then.
And I don’t understand why these bullpen pitchers need to know their “role” other than the closer. Their “role” is to pitch when their number is called. If they were good enough pitchers they would be starters.
No way should a long losing streak ipso facto result in Torre being fired. You have to ask WHY the team is losing and if firing the manager would likely improve the situation. It’s hardly Joe’s fault there is a current 5-game losing streak and no reason to assume that, if it went to 10 games, the additional 5 losses should also be laid at Joe’s feet.
Obviously, Torre’s not perfect. He has his flaws, like everyone else. Let’s not forget he also brings some positives to the table.
i don’t love sabermetrics, but one sabermetric stat that i find useful is the ExWL(expected won-loss) records that espn has on it’s expanded standings.
the yankees ExWL is 11-8. their actual record is 8-11.
the yankees would have 93 victories if they kept up at their pace of 11-8 ExWL.
now that’s not good enough by yankee standards, but it’s close.
things are not as bad as it looks. i think the yankees have run into some bad luck simply because it’s not easy to have a losing record when a team is +20 runs after 19 games.
i do believe that some teams play just well enough to win or lose, but this yankee losing streak just looks like bad luck more than anything.
if it goes on another19 games than it’s time to be looking closely at the management from cashman to torre to guidry to mattingly on down.
for some healthy perspective ,if this season were a baseball game, the first inning would have just ended.
I personally think the “full circle” reason for Clemens’ return to the Red Sox is compelling enough to him and his family that he’ll end up there. He would essentially be ending on a high note with the city and team that gave him his start. Just my feeling, though.
I think the Red Sox have as good a chance as anyone in putting together a huge season. I hate to say it, but it’s true. Any lineup that features Manny, Ortiz and folks like Youkilis and even Lowell does have an offensive presence, and I was impressed with their pitching this last weekend. Not to say we don’t match up well with them, we did score nicely off the starters, but they are relatively formidable, especially in the AL East.
So, in addition to the historical importance of it all, Clemens would be going to a “contender” if he signs with Boston.
And one last thing, I think no matter what, he goes in with a RS cap, the Hall of Fame is very strict about this stuff now. The cap is supposed to be bear the logo of the team with which a player was most dominant and the one that essentially features in the defining the bulk of one’s career.
Here’s something we should all be able to blame Joe Torre for. Replacing two starters for defensive purposes with a one run lead in the 7th fracking inning against the second best run-producing team in your division is straight-up thin-witted. And it’s something Joe will continue to do until someone tells him otherwise.
But who’s going to tell him?
Trading Arod is insane considering he was a year removed from an MVP, in his prime, and in one of his down years he was still one of the top 3 third baseman in baseball. He is irreplaceable. However, considering firing a manager that has never won without Don Zimmer, hasn’t won a title in 7 yrs, has seen his team choke in the playoffs, and has developed exactly ONE pitcher (Wang)from the organization in his 12 yr stint is not insane. He has all the resources. Obviously, he has some input on the personnel decisions, but by and large he has not been able to manage his pitching staff. The Yankees have had great players have great years and dominated for the most part during the regular season but their ability to win close games rests strongly on the managerial decisions. Managers in baseball have been fired for a lot less. Perhaps we’re understimating the value of his lieutenants in years passed. It seems he benefited greatly from having guys like Mel Stottlemeyer and Don Zimmer helping him make the tough calls. This is not an indictment against the current coaching staff. I just look at some of these decisions and it seems like he’s afraid to make a mistake. It takes disastrous consequences for him to use young players and in the case of young relievers, its almost worse when they do earn his trust. Anyone notice Proctor’s 97 mph fastball seems to be hanging out around 92 these days? Not everyone is built like Mike Stanton.
Also, carrying a one batter pitcher for an entire season just to face Ortiz? Myers on the staff means the rest of the bullpen has to make up for about 40 innings he can’t pitch. The in game line-up moves are limited because he is carrying 12 pitchers. Also, I’d like to see him get more creative. Things like ditching Nieves in favor of Phelps for 30 games would do wonders for his roster flexibility. It would allow him to carry a fifth outfielder or a DH/Julio Franco type which would allow him to run for Giambi in close games. Miguel Cairo is another example of a dime a dozen player that is only on the roster because of Joe’s loyalty. I really don’t imagine he is much better than a young utility guy that at least has the chance to improve. Instead he insists on carrying 3 hitters on the active roster that would be LUCKY to be below average for their positions.
Torre is no longer the right fit for this team. He might do great for another team. But right now the Yankees need more.
i was going to stay out of this debate, but, well, here goes.
When the Yankees lost to Detroit last October, I fully expected Joe Torre to be fired. I like Torre and think that he is a good manager for the Yankees, in general, though I have disagreed with some of his moves. (You’ll never have 100% agreement.) I thought at the time that it was time to make a fresh start, because sometimes it’s just time for a change — change for change’s sake can be a good thing. I thought the timing was right and that the players, the team he manages, would be able to accept that change at that time, plus have the entire off-season to come to grips with having a new manager at the beginning of the new season.
I do not think firing Joe Torre accomplishes anything but firing Joe Torre. I think you cannot underestimate the turmoil and aftershock that that will cause the team as constructed. Even if you put a familiar face (Pena, Bowa, Girardi) into that position, it will still be Torre’s team this year. It’s difficult to change course mid-stream, even in April, since Torre has been around for a very long time. Heck, he’s the only manager Derek Jeter has ever known.
And last, but not least, changing Torre does not fix the immediate problem of getting the bullpen rest. The only thing that fixes that is a healthy starting rotation that can go deep into the game on a regular basis — not just into the 7th, but preferably completing the 7th. You can argue that Torre should use this pitcher or that and for how long or in what situation, but that really accomplishes nothing.
Plus, they don’t take a poll of the fan base, and the Yankees will do what the Yankees will do. So, I am really not investing a lot of emotion in this particular topic.
Doreen,
You make some very good points. I would add that, if they fire Torre, its really just giving them a four month head start into what they want to do for next year because its doubtful he is coming back, regardless of the results, next season.
The Roger Clemens stuff intrigues me. All you hear is how much Clemens “loves” Torre and how Jeter, Posada, Mo, Giambi and obviously Pettitte all talk to him and are pushing him to come to the Yankees.
I am curious as to how much Roger wants to save Joe’s job. Does he want to involve himself in this situation if it continues to worsen?
Here’s my point. Let’s say (this is just for discussion purposes), the Yankees keep losing and the heat really turns up on Joe.
The talk of his firing stops becoming a blog topic but becomes a frontburner issue.
Does Roger step up his timetable, and decides to play with the Yankees, under the requirement that Torre stays on as manager? Or, does he stay out of that and continues on his own timetable, leaving Torre to twist in the wind?
Its interesting food for thought. JMO but, the more the Yankees keep underachieving, the more its going to take for Joe to bring more to the table than the past to keep his job. Its going to take Clemens to step up here.
With his contract expiring at the end of the season, its not as if the Yankees are in a bad financial position to pull the plug on him. The circumstances are much different than in 2005, when it would have cost them around $14 million to fire him.
I guess my curiousity is, just how much does Roger Clemens love Joe Torre? Does he love him enough to save his job because, if this keeps up, it may be the last card Joe has to play in order to stay on as Yankee Manager.
SJ44 –
Clemens as savior, not for the Yankees, but for Joe Torre? I never thought of it that way. It’s an interesting take on the situation, though.
I seem to remember Clemens saying something to the effect that, besides wanting a chance to win another ring, he would prefer to go somewhere where there is a need for his services. Right now, the Yankees definitely could use another quality starting pitcher; and right now, the Red Sox look as though their starting pitching is under control. If Clemens’ timetable is still more towards June than May, though, it still could be either one. And every time Houston scores a bunch of runs, I think they really could still be in the running.
I think it may come down to where he would have the most fun, believe it or not, and that could give the edge to the Yankees, mainly because of the long-standing friendships he has with members of that team. If he goes to Boston, he’ll be, not a loner, but not among compadres. Plus, I really do think if Hughes stays up, the chance to be a mentor to Phil Hughes will loom large for Clemens.
Does anyone think that Clemens will be a pitching coach after he retires from playing?
That’s a great question Doreen. I wonder how that would affect his 10yr personal services contract from Houston.
Pete, Is it really the Lee Roy Selmon International Airport? I know who JFK was, and certainly Reagan. Does this mean that Logan and O’Hare were possibly nose guards or catchers, and not politicos? And if Lee Roy got an airport (in addition to the expressway!), did Lucius and Dewey get anything? The Norman OK bus station? Anything? Must be some serious chop busting over the holidays at Mrs. Selmon’s house.