Wang was on a pitch count
-
- April
- 25
There seems to be a little confusion about Chien-Ming Wang.
Joe Torre told us the other day that he didn’t think Wang was on on a pitch count. Turns out that Ron Guidry and the medical staff decided he would get 80 pitches. Wang threw 81 pitches on Tuesday night, which is about what you would expect from a starter in his first appearance of the season.
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on Wednesday, April 25th, 2007 at 3:28 am by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
So that means you have to take out the best sinkerballer in baseball in a situation when you’re looking for a DP and bring in an overworked ineffective middle man with a 0.60 G/F? They couldn’t have given Wang one more batter? Come on.
Hey Pete,
I asked this question earlier and no one who posts paid any attention to it. . .perhaps a bad sign for me. But I was wondering about the injury history of Scott Kazmir. I remember when he was a highly touted prospect that the mets traded. He’s 23 now and broke into the show in 2003, granted for 30 innings, but in 2004, when he was i guess 20, he pitched over 180 innings. What’s to say Hughes, age 20, can’t do the same. I have no idea if this is a viable comparison, I was just throwing it out there. Thanks,
Gibb
Not really a viable comparison, it’s not so much their age, but what their arms are conditioned and ready for. Hughes pitched about 145 innings last year, if he pitched 180 this year it’d put a lot of stress on that arm. Also you have to take mechanics into account; Hughes’ mechanics are said to be great, while Mark Prior had horrible mechanics to go along with the boatload of innings.
But Gibb, you gotta have faith. Look at Dice-K, guy pitched hundreds of innings when he was younger, and the guy is still somewhat upright. Hughes is gonna be fine. If the Yankees are willing to limit Wang to 80 pitches on his first day back, they will keep a cap on Hughes too, cuz say what you will about Cashman but he wont let anyone destroy this kids arm or future. Believe that.
Mike,
How are you going to induce a groundball DP when there were only men on 2nd and 3rd?
You don’t push it when it comes to the health of your “ace” who hasn’t pitched in a month and this is essentially his Spring Training.
You think this rotation is hurting now—just imagine what could happen if Wang went down again and missed significant time.
And yes, you can expect a similar cap on Hughes this Thursday for the reasons Gonzo described.
This team will be fine. It would be different if the cavalry wasn’t coming back with reinforcements.
OFF TOPIC BUT JEES
Bill Simmons, the asshat has just destroyed my day… here are some “cake taking” quotes. I punched a 5 inch wide hole into a wall for every single one of these…
“You have to love Yankee fans. Before Friday night’s Yanks-Sox clash at Fenway, my buddy JackO left one of those taunting, “You don’t want to pitch to A-Rod right now, you don’t want this, just walk him every time!” messages. By the time the Sox had completed their sweep Sunday night, his cell phone had been mysteriously turned off. I had to leave my giggling, semi-euphoric, “Seriously, thanks for stopping by Fenway, that was great!” message on his voicemail.”
...
“Now, there’s a chance JackO smashed his phone into 20 pieces during the back-to-back-to-back-to-back homer barrage that sent Chase Wright into permanent psychotherapy.”
I HATE THIS DOUCHE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“By the end of the weekend, Boston pitchers finally cooled off A-Rod, who topped off at about 650 degrees with his second homer off Schilling on Friday … By Sunday, thanks to some careful pitching and Dice burying a fastball in his back, A-Rod had cooled down to 125 degrees. And thank God.”
THANKS TO… DICE-K BURYING A FASTBALL IN HIS BACK… THANKS TO… DICE-K BURYING A FASTBALL IN HIS BACK… THANKS TO… DICE-K BURYING A FASTBALL IN HIS BACK… AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
“After watching that series, would you rather have Rivera with 190,000 miles on his odometer and a cutter that doesn’t cut anymore … or young Jonathan Papelbon? I thought so. Buster Olney did a nice job of breaking down Rivera’s problems in Saturday’s blog, with one point standing out above everything else: When’s the last time you remember Rivera getting frustrated and throwing at someone’s head, like he did with Julio Lugo during the tail end of that inning?”
TYPICALL BUSTER “RED SOX LOVING DOUCHE” OLNEY, AND TYPICALL BILL SIMMONS THERE… JUST CLASSIC. NO RESPECT FOR ANYONE.
“Hideki Okajima (or as my dad calls him, “The Lefty Japanese Guy”) emerged as a reliable reliever for Boston, which was crucial because the list of Reliable Boston Relievers heading into the series looked like this: “Papelbon.” Now we have two.”
NOW WE HAVE TWO!!!!!!! AHHHHH (gets a baseball bat and smashes it over a puppy and kitty cat)
THIS THOUGH FELLAS IS THE QUOTE OF THE YEAR:
“Maybe Dice wasn’t dominating (seven innings, six earned runs) Sunday night, but he plunked A-Rod and Jeter and exposed a recent Yankee weakness from the past few seasons: You can throw inside on their guys, nail them with pitches, hit them two or three times in the same game and they never seem to retaliate because of Torre’s whole “we’re classier than that” mantra.”
We need to destroy these guys, seriously… they have no respect for us at all anymore. This is like Russia attacking us with 4 nukes while we stand around and do nothing. This will and cannot stand man. FIRST BATTER ON FRIDAY GETS HIT ON THE HEAD WITH A FASTBALL SO HARD THAT HE CAN’T PLAY FOR THE REST OF THE WEEKEND. Because this is getting ridiculous.
Buster Olney is NOT at all a Red Sox lover or Yankee hater.
The guy is one of the top baseball writers in the country and has given a lot of kudos to the Yanks in the past.
I don’t really care if Sox fans have any respect for the Yanks or not. I bet the Yanks still win the season series between these clubs.
The problem for the BoSox is that the Yanks are staying afloat for now but have played far worse than anyone expected thus far.
They will be fine. And Red Sox fans will have a good time watching the Yanks in the postseason this October and wondering again what went wrong.
Be patient.
anaconda “How are you going to induce a groundball DP when there were only men on 2nd and 3rd?”
You walk the next batter. Which is what they did. Only you don’t have a relief pitcher come in for an IBB to the first batter he faces and you don’t bring in a flyball pitcher when you are trying to induce a double play.
Gonzo,
Ya, I am not totally convinced that Dice’s pitches on A-Rod and Jeter were unintentionally. To protect our “classy� players, can we change the rule “got hit and walk two bases“?
Joe didn’t know Wang was on a pitch count? Isn’t it his job to know what is going on with the players? Did he know his shortstop got HBPB again? Isn’t it about time that the Yankees stopped that?
It’s time for Joe to retire/be fired/quit/or just leave. No one will miss him. As others here have said, bring Girardi in from the booth and make him the manager – he will be able to do the job right away. Also, let’s get Bernie back …. we need him, too.
The Yankees have the highest payroll and are in last place in their division. The time for action is now.
anaconda, Buster is a very good baseball writer, one of the best and if you’d like (or haven’t already) you can buy his book “The Last Night of the Yankee Dynasty” over here: http://www.amazon.com/Last-Night-Yankee-Dynasty-Greatness/dp/0060515066.
Thing is I always catch this guy talking mad **** about the Yanks on baseball tonight. so it’s not just him telling anyone who would listen that my favorite team is crumbling anymore. He is (these days) starting to get on my nerves… BIG TIME.
and jamesjk, Dice-K was getting a lil lesson from that pathetic loser Tavarez, for all eyes to see. I think it’s time we doubled their pleasure and drilled their guys right in the mouth.
We need Clemens to do a lil Piazza work on these guys.
“Joe Torre told us the other day that he didn’t think Wang was on on a pitch count.”
Torre lies again.
Gonzo,
Actually, I was quite mad. Dice is no rookie. He knows what he was doing. Baseball need to stop these somehow.
anaconda,
The decision to walk Baldelli was made BEFORE Wang was yanked. What should’ve happened was for WANG to walk Baldelli and pitch to Harris, not try to get a DP with 2nd and 3rd. The idea that 5 or so more pitches is risking his healthy when he DOESN’T EVEN HAVE AN ARM INJURY is absurd.
jamesjk, baseball would have (a.k.a. the godamn umpires) if they were not so bussy trying to keep japanese fans happy and the hype going on for the rest of the game. If that was Bronson Aroyo he would have been out in a heartbeat. They should have thrown his conniving ass out on the Jeter one for sure, even kruky on BT said they should have thrown Dice-K out for the A-Rod one (100 million dollar pitchers don’t hit guys on the shoulder/back by mistake with 97mph heaters).
But hey, BRIGHT SIDE YANKEE FANS… BIIIIG UNIT ROUGHED UP LAST NIIIIIIGHT AGAINST THE PAAAAADRESSSSS… 10 A.M.! MY HOUSE! CHAMPAGNE! PAAAARRRRRRTY!!!
I hate to say this: other pitchers are reading the message too. Got to be stopped and published.
Hard to say the Yankees are “staying afloat” while they are in the midst of a 5 game losing streak.
“Floating away” is more like it.
Right now, they are in last place. You can use the injury excuse, the April excuse, or any other excuse you want to uss. However, that’s where they currently reside.
They don’t need to worry about the Red Sox. They need to worry about winning a game.
Win one, then build off that. If they keep losing, then it will be up to the new manager to determine the fate of this team. This team loses 5 more games in a row, there is no way Joe Torre is the manager of this team a week from today. If he is, then they deserve their fate.
Mike,
Pitchers don’t only throw with their arm. Their power and torque comes from their legs and back too—especially their legs. It’s all related and an integral part of pitching.
Ask Roger Clemens about that. Remember when he had leg problems a lot during the 2001-03 seasons and Torre needed to rest him as much as possible during the latter part of the season?
Hamstring injuries can also linger and you can tweak it even though you think it has healed. Every time a pitcher throws a pitch, he drives with his legs.
I think the Yankee medical staff has a bit better understanding of Wang’s medical condition than you and they said it was a good idea to keep him on an 80-pitch cap.
Sorry, but I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt over a disgruntled fan on a blog because they get paid a lot of money to know what they are doing.
As long as the Yanks win 2 against Toronto: Pettitte and Hughes should be able to and they don’t lose 2 of 3 to Boston all should be right in Yankeeland and we can all collectively take our hand off the panic button. I think if they lose one to Toronto and lose 2 or 3 to Boston that some kind of pitching move will be made (Like a first class plane ticket for Igawa back to Japan)
So why did he even start the inning?
SJ44,
I’ve got news for you. Regardless of what happens over the next week, you couldn’t be more wrong thinking that Torre could get fired this soon.
Need I remind you that this isn’t the 80’s and The Boss isn’t running the show anymore like he once did.
Cashman is running this show and there is no chance in Hell that he going to fire Torre after 20-30 games when he put his neck out on the line after the ALDS last season and talked The Boss out of canning Torre.
If Torre does get fired, it won’t happen until after the season. You can bank on it.
Cashman also knows that it’s not Torre’s fault that he’s had 3/5 of his rotation on the DL and will be 5 different rookies to start a game for this team already (when Hughes starts tomorrow).
No team in baseball could sustain that and the Yanks are no different.
You can hate Torre all you want, but you can’t deny that the injuries aren’t his fault. That’s the primary reason why this team hasn’t played well and Cashman knows it.
Teh bullpen is being taxed because the starters aren’t pitching far into their games.
My chances of dating Jessica Alba are better than the chances of Cashman firing Torre within the next two weeks.
It ain’t happening, so you are SOL.
Gonzo,
I read that book by Olney a few years ago. In fact, I went out and bought it the day it came out because I’ve been a Buster fan for years.
The book was outstanding and probably the best piece written about the latest dynasty.
Phelps should be given a week straight at 1B. If his defense is average or better he should be the everyday starter.
Henn should be the lefty specialist and Karstens as the long man when Moose comes back.
wang did a fantastic job on 80 pitches . its mike meyers the bum who blew the game like a bronx hooker . cheers for wang and jeers for yet another terrible yanks bellpen outing . i have zero confidence in mike meyers or jose viscaino .
Interesting. Let’s just say, for the sake of this discussion, they lose the next 5 games, anaconda.
You think Joe Torre survives a ten game losing streak? Not gonna happen.
If they go 0-homestand, he is gone. It doesn’t have to be the 80’s. Nobody, not even Joe Torre, survives a 10 game losing streak.
You do realize, even with injuries, the Yankees field the more talented team just about every night they play, don’t you? So, can the injury excuse because that’s all it is.
Mind you, I am not wishing for a 10 game losing streak. All I am saying is, if it happens, he will be gone.
Hopefully, it won’t. Hopefully, they will play better baseball and he will show some level of competence on the bench. But, if the worst (5 more losses in a row) happen, he is out.
SJ44,
I usually can at least see where you are coming from most of the time but there is no way the Torre gets fired when most of the rotation and some regulars have been injured. The only way he would get fired during the season is if they are 10-15 back at the break or when they are mathematically eliminated but even then they will wait til after the Series to fire him.
I don’t see how a 5-game losing streak is now quickly turning into a 10-game losing streak.
C’mon. That’s such an absurd argument that I can’t even fathom a response.
They may have the most talent in the lineup than every team, but none of those guys pitch.
The ‘98 Yankees couldn’t have sustained 3/5 of their pitching staff on the DL and replacing them with 3 rookies.
You need to calm down because your argument is so irrational that it makes you sound nuts.
I don’t see how a 5-game losing streak is now quickly turning into a 10-game losing streak.
C’mon. That’s such an absurd argument that I can’t even fathom a response.
They may have the most talent in the lineup than every team, but none of those guys pitch.
The ‘98 Yankees couldn’t have sustained 3/5 of their rotationon the DL and replacing them with 3 rookies.
You need to calm down because your argument is so irrational that it makes you sound nuts.
He’s survived a lot more (including two World Series losses) AND while Steinbrenner was calling the shots a lot more than he clearly is now.
What makes you so sure a losing streak in April, with a team that has had (and still has) several members on the DL, will be the breaking point to finally fire him?
Gonzo-
You’re totally right about that idiot Tavarez coaching Matsuzaka on throwing inside. It was pretty obvious what they were talking about. It’s BS and it’s been going on since Pedro with virtually no response from use but Clemens. It better change fast.
after reading this thread, i think Gonzo may be my favorite poster here.
also, i think an 80 pitch limit is ridiculous. i think we may need to be questioning Guidry right now even more so than Torre.
Figure this… Wang threw exactly the same 81 pitches in each of his 3 season debut as an Yankee, he got either no-decision or a loss in all 3 of them… Feel bad for our Ace’s luck…
Anaconda…I’m not going to rehash the whole Torre is good/bad debate. Unfortunately, the fact that is has become an issue points to there being a real problem.
Instead, I would invite you to listen to the Yankees pregame show archived on MLB.com (assuming you have access). In it, Torre explained to Sterling that he didn’t think Wang would be limited because he had a leg issue and not an arm issue. According to Torre, Wang was throwing days after the injury. I actually think your point is valid, but it is ironic that Torre said pretty much the opposite just before the game.
I don’t want to see Torre fired just yet. But if Piniella had been here this year, he would have dealt with our players getting drilled.
So, I guess the question is, was Wang on a pitch count or not? If he was not, why was he pulled? If he was, why didn’t the manager know about it?
Anaconda, if you think this situation can’t morph into something worse, you haven’t watched this team this year.
Not saying IT WILL. I am saying, IF it does, no way he survives.
All I am saying is, IF this losing streak is 10 by Monday or IF he is swept again by the Red Sox, I don’t think he survives it and a new manager will be in place on Tuesday. Just my opinion, that’s all.
We will just have to agree to disagree on the subject.
Take yurselves back just a couple of seasons, to the point of Sean Henn’s rookie debut with the Yanks as a starter. Massive rotation problems, a 3 game sweep by the D-Rays, and an 11-18 record. Torre get fired then? Not even close.
Not gonna happen.
Oh, and the Yanks won the division, again. Not to say that’s what happens this time, but we’re far from done, so step away from the ledge, and be a little less impressed with your opinions which you try to pass off as knowledge.
Comparing other years to this one is fools gold.
The team is two years older. Torre is two more years removed from post-season success and, not to be dismissed, he is in the last year of his contract.
Unlike 2005, when the Yankees would have owed him over $14 million dollars if they fired him, they only owe him about $5 million if he is fired now.
The economics do play a difference. It probably saved his job in 2005. If the team continues to struggle, it won’t be an impediment to save his job this year.
Different years, different circumstances. Let’s hope he finds a way to win on this homestand.
Wang didn’t need a pitch count for a bad hammy.
Pete, why didn’t you back over Myers with your taxi???
Its always smart to have a pitcher throw 100 pitches in his first start of the yr.
Why would it have been 100 pitches? For example, what if you walk Baldelli (you can’t count 4 lob tosses in the pitch count as “pitches”, IMO), and let him attack Harris to try and induce the DP?
That’s probably another 4-5 pitches. That puts him at around 85 pitches. Maybe he gets out of the inning. Maybe not.
Its a legitimate question as opposed to an after the fact second guess.
Personally, I would have rather had the guy who induced more groundball DP’s than anybody in the league last year in there to induce the groundball rather than Vizcaino.
But, I can see both sides of the debate.
The substitutions in the 7th? Just horrific decisionmaking again by Joe and that I don’t understand and never will.
But, that game is gone and onto tonight. Here’s hoping they score and Andy can pitch a gem.
SJ44, from what I’ve seen, you and I are kindred spirits and I basically agree with everything you say. Unfortunately, the thing I’ve found to disagree with you on is the notion that Torre is gone should they lose 5 more. If only that were true! Unfortunately, while I tend to trust Cashman implicitly, regarding Torre he seems to have these massive blinders on. I don’t get it. It truly is a dilemma for me that Cashman can be so smart – and yet be so dumb when it comes to the “manager”.
Oh yeah, and do yourself a favor and ignore Anaconda. Torre Defenders have no place in any intelligent conversation.
wangers arm was not being protected. both legs take a beating, one creates power and torgue, the other has to stop it. give torre a break.
strategy is only as good as its execution, hence the hero/goat mentality on the blogs.