Hughes done for the night
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- April
- 26
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It’s not a real pretty line:
4.1 7 4 4 1 5 91 pitches/53 strikes
Couple of things: I thought he got squeezed at times. It also seemed like the umpire blew the call at first on John McDonald in the fifth inning and that cost him.
Michael Kay is singing his praises but putting eight guys on base in 4.1 innings is nothing special.
Hughes did OK and you have to figure that he will get better. But he belongs in AAA learning his craft, not giving up three hits to Vernon Wells.
Now the Yankees have to figure out A.J. Burnett, which won’t be easy.
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on Thursday, April 26th, 2007 at 8:57 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
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Peter did this is a tremendous site, you do a great job. But come on you are being way too tough on the kid there. That first inning I’m sure he was a nervous wreck. Frank Thomas got a hit on a great pitch. Given the circumstances he did a commendable job. He’ll get the next start and like you say he may have to refine his stuff at AAA.
That aside, how about the offense being a bit more consistent. And can they stop laughing and smiling on the bench. They are 4 mediocre days away from being 8.5 out.
Not real efficient, but Pete the three most important numbers are k/9, bb/9 and hr/9. He keeps the ball in the yard and continues with a 5/1 kk/b ration and he’ll be fine…
Hughes did decent, but this Yankee team is playing so terribly right now it wouldnt have mattered if he went 9 ip and let in 1 run. They cant hit when its needed, their baserunning is horrendous and their relief pitching will blow any lead we have.
I have a bad feeling about this weekend and can see us getting swept again by Boston
I think its good to be calm about this. Stop calling him Phil Franchise or (shuders) P-Huge… He has the stuff but today he got fleeced by the umps.
I voted out after 5, needs more seasoning in the poll this morning and it was right.
However, I have to disagree with you Peter – it’s been shown in the past that pitchers can pretty much skip AAA ball and still succeed, I think Phil just needs a few more starts to adjust, if we decide to keep him. I kind of want them to keep him up, but it’s better for him to go down. I think we need starting pitching help sooner than later, it’s going to destroy our bullpen soon enough from over-use because our starters are getting kicked out before the 6th inning. Wang, Pettite, Hughes, Igawa, Karstens is what we are looking at until Mussina comes back, and he’s been so prone to injury this season and never went deep much even when he was healthy last year (not to say he was bad).
I’m not freaking out, but it’s looked bad. I think Igawa will get more consistent in time, and we’ll get Mussina back, but right now it’s bad.
Gonzo, I agree those nicknames suck. Can’t stand the Franchise.
Pete you should run a contest for a new one, a real cool one.
I have to agree with Andrew. He was shaky in his first inning (to be expected), but come on. The big hits were to Vernon Wells and Frank Thomas. The best pitchers in baseball give up hits to those guys sometimes. And that last inning, the blown call hurt him big time (and that was a really bad call, I usually don’t complain about them because they’re going to happen, but that was really blatant). I don’t think he pitched amazing but for his first start, it could have been worse. And frankly, for all the talk that he’s “not ready” or “should be in AAA”, have most of the other starters done any better? Mussina’s first start this year was worse. Igawa’s had two worse starts. Karstens was worse against Boston. The Blue Jays are hurting but they’re still not a completely bad lineup.
The bottom line is Hughes is probably going to get one more start, unless Igawa doesn’t get used against Boston at all. Otherwise we have nobody to start on Tuesday, and the earliest Mussina could be back is Wednesday, if the rehab start tomorrow doesn’t get rained out. I’d like to see Hughes pitch that one. If he still looks shaky, then fine, send him back to AAA. But I’d much rather give him one start than immediately judge him as not ready when long time veterans can be just as “bad” in any given start.
Here’s a question also. If it was 4.2 IP, 2 ER (or possibly 5 IP, 2 ER) would you still be as vehement that he’s not ready, or would you be willing to give him another look? The line doesn’t look good, but taken in context it’s not quite as bad as it looks.
Sorry Peter – but giving up 3 hits to Vernon Wells is exactly the learning experience Hughes needs. That guy hits everybody, he’s one of the great hitters in the game right now. He struggled in the first inning with his nerves, obviously, left a fastball over the plate to Rios to start off the game trying to even the count…
This is a guy who has never pitched with the bases loaded in pro ball. Guys need to get on base for him to “learn his craft.” You don’t learn much blowing people away.
Whether he makes another big league start, or he’s sent down to make room for Mussina, there’s no doubt he learned more tonight than he learned in the last month of his season last year.
With Rios, Wells, Thomas, and Overbay, it’s not an easy lineup to pitch too.
In response to “Yeah” about the Yankees not being able to hit when they need to – they have all year. Burnett has ridiculous stuff. Sometimes he’s on, sometimes he’s not. He’s walked a bunch of guys tonight, but he’s not the easiest guy to face. I don’t think it’s time to start bashing the offense…they scored 6 runs last friday and lost, 4 on saturday, 6 more sunday, and 8 on monday…and lost all those games.
I couldn’t disagree with you more Pete. Any other team in the majors would keep the kid up and let him learn in the bigs. He’s got the stuff, let him learn where it counts. You can’t just keep bringing the kids up and sending them back down. At some point you have to commit to developing them at the major league level. It doesn’t work to leave them in the minors, we’ve seen this with various Yankee prospects. Let him learn with the pros.
Peter, you know I love you man, but how do you propose that Phil Hughes is going to learn how to pitch to Vernon Wells at AAA? I think that part of your comment is poorly stated. The only way Phil Hughes is going to learn to pitch to Vernon Wells is to pitch to Vernon Wells. There is no such person in AAA, so it means he may have to take a few lumps in order to learn something. If his confidence is so fragile that he can’t take some rough outings in the Major Leagues, he doesn’t belong as the #1 prospect in the sport, and he also doesn’t belong in NY.
He isn’t that fragile. He has had 2 rough outings to start out at every level he’s played at so far, and come back to adjust and dominate. He’ll do the same in the Major Leagues, and another season of pitching to the Joe McEwings, Alex Ochoas, and George Kotterases of the world won’t help him to pitch to Wells, Frank Thomas, David Ortiz, Barry Bonds, or the reincarnation of the Babe himself. Pitching to those guys will get him ready. Being around other Major Leaguers will get him ready. Watching tape of Major League hitters with Major League pitching coaches will help him get ready. Failing and learning from his mistakes will get him ready.
Shouldn’t it be only 3 ER? Wells scored in the fifth on a sac fly after advancing to 3rd on an error. He doesn’t score without the error so doesn’t that make it unearned?
I like the Phil of the Future nickname…
I have no problems with Hughes start today. It’s not me being a Hughes homer, it’s me being realistic. He’s a twenty year old pitching in Yankee Stadium against a good lineup and a media frenzy, and he had the ump squeeze him (a bit) and another ump completely blow the call at first. If he got that out, I bet things would have looked a lot better.
He showed flashes of what he can and maybe will be, and considering that he’s twenty year old, I’m very excited.
pete is correct. in an ideal world i’d much rather have hughes at AAA learning how to dominate. he got some bad breaks tonight, to be sure, and outside of the Yanks, toronto has the highest team OPS in the the AL–but the performance was mediocre at best. I agree that the peripherals were good (K, BB, HR), but we are left only to hope things work out at this point…
of course we all hope for the best…
i’m hoping that just like AA and AAA, PH takes 2-4 starts to get settled…then starts to dominate! we’ll see.
let’s not be homers about this one…pete is right.
His line isn’t pretty but one needs to have seen the game to really put it in context.
An early stolen base, 2 singles, and a double is what got him into the most trouble. That hit Thomas had to score the second run was on a strike pitch that Thomas got to because he is Frank Thomas and this is the Majors. But he has nice velocity on that fastball (93-95 MPH) and his curve ball really is what everyone says it is. He was having better luck with it in the early go but it was still somewhat effective later on. In the end: he only had 1 walk (on target with his avg’s in the minors) and 5 K’s in 4.1 innings. He has movement on the ball that other pitchers on this team currently do not have.
A couple of things that have carried over to the majors so far: his lack of walks and his ability to strike out batters. He’s only 20. This start was actually very comforting in the fact that he does look legit and it looks like we have a nice future on our hands.
I’m satisfied.
Looks like the boss isn’t as placid as people think.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....ndex.html#
Off the Hughes topic. I really can’t believe how slow Giambi is. I really didn’t think he was that slow. Jeez.
Phil Franchise? More like Phour-Run Phour-Inning Phil…Cashman should have traded him while he still had value
Mike Plugh makes a point, Hughes always seems to need one or two starts to settle in. His star wasn’t horrific, his next will probably be better.
There is no way he can learn to pitch to great hitters in AAA, he can learn to harness his control and location, but only facing great hitters will he learn to get them out.
One more start and a late season call up should have in-line for a pretty good year in 2008.
I see no reason for him to be in AAA when he can learn his craft here and he’s better than anything else we’ve got. He can be a serviceable 4 or 5 starter if he pitches this way and our offense will usually do better than it did. You have to chalk something up this time to jitters, getting to know the league, and the cold. He’ll be alright, not an ace of course, but he’ll be ok.
He had three starts in AAA. One good, one fair and one poor. How did that make him ready?
This kid still needs to learn how to pitch with men on base, how to get ahead and stay there and how to hold runners. That’s why they have the minor leagues.
He has no business at age 20 being in the majors. This is the fault of Brian Cashman believing Carl Pavanio could stay healthy
I forgot to add a couple of things.
I would be lying if I said I didn’t want him to stay. It’s super tempting to have a guy they compare to Jeter in terms of his potential impact on the organization. It’s even more tempting to want a guy they dub “the young Rocket” since at 43 years old, we’re STILL going after that guy to come back.
He needs to work on working the inside of the plate, which it was clear he’s still having some trouble with. I also do not want Hughes to go down the road of Prior, Liriano, and Wood so in addition he needs to build up his stamina to pitch the amount of innings that the Majors requires.
Send him to AAA for that stuff but at least we know now that he does have “it”.
Hey guys, off topic I know but is anybody else having trouble with mlb.com? I can’t seem to get it to load.
“He isn’t that fragile.”
he sure isn’t that strong. he was throwing 90 tops after 75 pitches. he is not ready yet. he doesn’t have the arm strength.
It makes no sense for Hughes to be in AAA while the craptastic trio of Karstens/Rasner/Igawa are in the starting rotation of the big team. Hughes should stay.
Forget this game my friends, it’s all over. let’s pray Baltimore can hold on instead.
Considering some of the starts we’ve seen lately, I just was happy to see he only gave up one walk.
He really didn’t get much help from the team behind him either like other posters have said. No offense, no defense. I liked his composure despite it all.
Peter, who would you propose they should have pitched tonight instead of the savior?
The dude is 20 years old. We shouldnt be relying on him to save our season. Its unfair. He shouldnt be here til June. Its sad that hes now our 3rd best starter.
Thats on Cashman. For thinking he had enough in Igawa and Pavano.
When Zito and Lilly were out there. Forget the money. How would those 2 look in the rotation?
Peter,
Your logic is flawed again. How is he going to learn to pitch with men on base at AAA when no one is on base? They have the minor leagues to teach those things to players who can’t handle the Majors. They have the low minors for guys like Hughes to brush up on a few things before heading to the front of the class. They have AAA for guys like Ohlendorf who will never be a Major League ace, but could become a decent middle of the rotation starter with some coaching.
Hughes could spend more time in AAA, but the difference between AAA and the Majors isn’t the Grand Canyon. He’s going to face guys in every lineup that are Major League average, and then he’s going to face the middle of the lineup where there are Hall of Famers. The league average guys are found in both AAA and MLB. He can get those guys out already. Look what he did against Hill, Smith, Phillips, and McDonald. He won’t be able to learn a single thing about pitching to Alex Rios, Vernon Wells, or Frank Thomas at SWB. I’m sorry.
the rest of the team will probably jog faster than giambi runs
The bigger concern aside from Hughes’ start is that the Yankees are on the verge of losing 6 straight, at least 4 of which they should have won. unbelievable how awful the start to this season is, it makes 2005 look like nothing.
Joe needs to be fired now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Peter, to an extent I agree with you. In the last few years this team seems to plan on “best case” scenarios. The fact is that in the long baseball season, injuries happen. Look at the weak bench we have.
Bernie couldn’t be given a major league contract because he had no role with Matsui, Damon, Abreu and Melky needing time. Never mind that Damon always gets aches, Matsui is coming off a big injury and Melky is just in his second year. Adding Bernie, or at least a capable major league outfielder besides him would have been smart.
Same with the starting pitching. We were supposedly set with Wang, Pettitte, Moose, Pavano and Igawa. Not having a better back-up option is again problematic.
It may not cost us in the end, but it is an issue I have noticed for the past few years.
hahaha “craptastic trio.”
“He has no business at age 20 being in the majors. This is the fault of Brian Cashman believing Carl Pavanio could stay healthy”
thank you peter. about time someone pointed out the miscalculations cashman made in putting this team together.worst back up catcher. worst first base situation. wishful thinking on pitching.
Yo Kasey, if I wanted a downer I’d go rent the Dead Poets Society. Cool it with the pessimistic Season is over ****.
True Peter, remember Hughes was sent down to develop another pitch. In reality, he should be a September call-up. Tonight was a move of desperation.
The Yankees are paying the price for years of poor decisions. That’s the problem when so much money is thrown around; it makes the decision making process less important. But things have caught up to the Yankee management. It was ineveitable.
Great, here we go, using everyone out of the pen in a game we can’t score a run in.
Yo gloomy what the **** man, get your *** outta here brosef.
I love Bernie too but you guys need to forget about Bernie. Watching him last year was painful…a washed up player.
Peter,
Have to agree, Cashman made a mistake this winter when he did not unload Pavano, for anything would have been better than keeping him…
Ahhhh there we go, two pitchers and bases are loaded on 3 straight walks… NICE bullpen. @#$%@#%@#$@$@!!!!!!!
can somebody throw a strike?
More great managing by Clueless. Leave Henn out there!!! Save Proctor who looks like he has nothing for the weekend. Perfect example of Torre wasting pitchers. The manager is supposed to make the team better and Torre makes them worse. The team got into this situation because they are over used so he keeps over using them.
Mike Plugh-
what are you even talking about? your idea of development is throwing hughes in over his head so he learns. guess what, the yankees need wins, not hughes development at the cost of losses. if he can’t win now down he goes. if the yankees are ten games up fine, hughes can come up for development, but not when the team desperately needs wins. plus it puts too much pressure on him when the whole team is going bad. the veterans can take it. a kid can’t.
The AAA experience is overrated. He’s going to progress faster facing major league hitters than he will facing career minor leaguers who can’t hit a curveball.
Not to mention, Hughes was much better tonight than his line indicated. The missed call at first really hurt him and Po had a miserable game behind the plate. Wells had his number but that can be said of a lot of pitchers.
I’ll repeat, if the choice is between Hughes and Karstens/Rasner/Igawa, I’m picking Hughes every time.
Hughes threw everything for strikes tonight. No less of an expert than Al Leiter confirmed the guy has a major league arsenal right now. He’s just a couple months shy of his 21st birthday, he was making his major league debut at Yankee stadium under the lights against a pretty good lineup…he wasn’t economical.
He needs to throw more strikes. I think he was sent down because he wasn’t consistently throwing breaking pitches for strikes.
I’m not against him going back down to pitch in Triple A, but has been correctly pointed out by several people, you can’t learn to pitch against major league hitters if you’re not facing them.
Strike?…What’s a strike???
I don’t know about you guys, but I’m getting to the point where I can hardly watch these games any more.
Pete is 100% correct. Hughes should be learing his craft in AAA but, he can’t now because the parent club is a trainwreck.
I might add Pete, also add that spending $46 million on Igawa sure as hell didn’t help either.
Not been a good month for Brian Cashman or Joe Torre.
Now, the bullpen can’t find the plate. Walks, wild pitches, everything a last place team (which this is) does on a nightly basis.
This team is a trainwreck and with Boston winning tonight, it makes the three game series do or die for Joe Torre, IMO.
They get swept by the Red Sox this weekend, I can’t see George not firing him.
You can talk about the injuries all you want but, at some point, manager’s get fired for losing every night. Even Joe Torre.
May not be right or “fair” (both very debatable points) but, I can’t imagine George sitting idly by much longer.
His team is officially an embarrassment right now.
I can’t eat and watch at the same time, that’s for sure!
I say fire Joe tonight…in between pitching changes.
Great thing about fantasy baseball is having a second team to follow when your real team plays like crap
Rivera BETTER pitch tonight. Maybe then he will actually be sharp if he has to pitch against Boston this weekend. With Torre it wouldn’t surprise me if he has Vizcaino pitching in a 10-0 game.
Peter, your blog is my favorite, but you dropped down on my respect level a few levels with your words tonight. What you fail to mention is that at every level of Phil’s career he struggles a bit at first and then flat out dominates. We, as fans believe that could happen here, but it takes patience, there will some losses at first. Look at Detroit 3 years ago. Anyway, he showed flashes of brilliance tonight and I like my team much better today then I did yesterday. Hope is sometimes all we have, so I happy tonight. Peter what team from New England are you a fan of anyway?
SJ$$ do or die series. are you 12… I was alive in 78 or whenever it was and the Yanks came from the dead 14.5 out..
Where you alive in 05 when the sox won 4 straight against us????
You need to take some meds……….
right now they are playing terrible and getting zero brakes, it should even out..
They won’t need Rivera in the Boston series because they won’t have a lead.
This team sucks Torre, Proctor, Cairo, Mientkiewicz, Nieves, Igawa, Pavano and Myers should not be on this team.
Cashman holds the blame for creating this garbage, George needs to get out of his deep sleep and start firing people. Get Girardi out of the booth and get him managing Torre has lost it. Why the hell is Henn not still pitching…..
Stuart;
Oh good, another old guy like me. I remember ‘78 also but not this team. They don’t have the guts for a run like that. These guys are NOT the ‘78 Yankees, not even close.
“They won’t need Rivera in the Boston series because they won’t have a lead.”
You never know, they actually have 2 major league pitchers pitching in the series. Which is alot for them. Even though Wang usually pitches scared against them.
randy…
You clearly miss my point. Pitching Hughes at SWB accomplishes two things. (1) He polishes himself up against guys with VORP of between -15 and +10. (2) He pitches with less pressure.
As for point #1, he can already get those guys out. He did so today as well. Point #2 only is important if he is going to be destroyed by some rough outings in the Bigs. I don’t think he’s that fragile. If your idea is that he’ll “learn to pitch inside more effectively” or “fine tune his change up”, I think you’re wrong. I’ll take the 2nd part of that 1st. Hughes’ fastball and curve are so good that he was the best pitcher in camp in 2005. Posada and Giambi both said so. Those pitches are Major League caliber pitches, and there’s no reason he needs to spend a long time playing with a change in the Minors that will be his 3rd best pitch. He isn’t going to throw his #3 pitch to Vernon Wells. Learning to pitch inside effectively to Vernon Wells is different than learning top pitch inside effectively against Alex Ochoa. He can get everyone out at AAA already. What will he learn about pitching to Major League All Stars at SWB? Nothing.
Phil Hughes is the top pitching prospect in the sport. You’ll see his fellow stand outs soon. Tim Lincecum will be up soon. Scott Kazmir has been an ace for TB since he was 20-21. Has he been the best pitcher in the sport? No. Has he been the best pitcher in the sport on some days? Probably. Hughes is that good. He’s going to get hit by Vernon Wells and Manny Ramirez and Miguel Tejada on some afternoons and on other afternoons he’s going to post 10+ strikeouts. Who among the Yankees starters can you say the same for? Moose? Yes. Pettitte? Yes. Wang? Yes. Karstens, Rasner, Wright, Pavano, Igawa, Proctor, Henn? The answer is probably “no” for all of those guys. Hughes may have a few problems, but he’s no worse than the Yankees #4 starter today. He should stay.
I hope you are right Captain 541.
Boston is going to destroy us……….with that being said I’m going to bed, no more wasting time watching this team go through the motions
Canos patience is very impressive. Is he ever going to take a pitch?!! They should give him a $1m dollars for every walk he takes.
Years ago I used to get so mad at the boss for firing so many managers. Remember when he fired Berra after 16 games? I was livid. Now George won’t pull the trigger on Arrogant Joe. I don’t get it. I actually liked the Steinbrenner on Seinfeld better than the real one.
“May not be right or “fairâ€? (both very debatable points) but, I can’t imagine George sitting idly by much longer.”
you say enough things that like a broken clock you’re right twice a day. this is one of your two.
poor george might be slowing down , but he’s not going to let the yankees drop 7-8 games down at this point in a season without blowing a gasket. cashman and torre are both on the hot seat.
i think you’ll see a players only meeting before boston comes to town. they know they are putting torre in jeopardy after steinbrenner came close to firing him last fall. it may not be fair ,but it could happen.
The comments here during losses are hilarious.
Real “fans” at their best and brightest.
wow…..proctor is in the game….you don’t see that everyda…….oh wait a minute
Sorry Jake that I am so negative but this season has been gut wrenching.
Keep the faith people, the Yankees have people paid a lot of money to fix these problems. Why we all worry about or wives, kids, jobs and health for awhile and let the Yankees fix their problems.
mike plugh,
you are missing my point. the yankees are not playing in a developmental league. the yankees don’t have the luxury of hughes learning on the job. he had no arm strength after 75 pitches.
winning comes first, and i respectively disagree with you.if a kid like hughes who can throw 95 can’t throw 91-93 after 75 pitches ,he isn’t ready.why you think his arm is ready isn’t backed up by his velocity. he could easily overthrow trying to do more than he’s ready for and then you have a real problem. hughes is not the answer right now. do you also advocate pulling up carrots to see if they’re ready?
FWIW, Roger Clemens debuted for Boston in 1984 at age 21, and had an ERA of 7.13 after getting knocked around in his 1st 6 starts. That year he ended up pitching 133 innings, giving up 146 hits, striking out 126 and going 9-4 with an ERA of 4.32. This is no guarantee of anything, and nobody is saying Hughes will be another Clemens, but I’m thinking Hughes could duplicate those numbers, perhaps better them, and apparently, it didn’t hurt Clemens to have a little “on the job training”.
I thought Hughes did pretty well tonight, all things considered, and is certainly worth at least another start.
um, mariano hasn’t pitched since monday. didn’t joe say he hasn’t been giving him enough work? i don’t get it.
Josh Phelps PH for Giambi? Giambi is the only one able to hit tonight.
I think there was three guys who got a hit last night Giambi, Arod, and Cano, that’s about it. I said before the game that even if he was awful I wouldn’t judge him too harshly, he’s only 20 years old for goodness sakes. He looked nervous the first inning seemed to settle down and looked pretty good at times.