Hughes here for wrong reasons
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- April
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Here is my main point regarding Phil Hughes: He was called up because they needed him, not because he was ready.
He had three starts at AAA. One fair, one poor and one great. Does that make him ready? Hughes is 20, not 22 or 23. He has dominated lower levels of baseball and needs to learn how to hold runners and get ahead in counts along with establishing faith in his off-speed and breaking pitches. That’s why they have the minor leagues.
Do you know how times he has faced a hitter with the bases loaded in the last two years? Twice.
Did everybody forget he pitched poorly in spring training against big-league hitters?
I don’t buy the notion that he should learn on the job in the majors. That leads to overthrowing and an increased possibility of injury. It’s almost impossible to protect a young pitcher in the majors, especially in New York. Once they get to the Bronx, it about winning.
I blame Brian Cashman for this. He had way too much faith in Carl Pavano’s ability to stay healthy and for whatever reason invested a lot of money in Kei Igawa. Now they’re paying the price. If Hughes gets hurt in two weeks, somebody has to answer for that.
But what’s done is done. He’s here and I suspect he faces Texas next week. They have nobody else.
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on Thursday, April 26th, 2007 at 9:43 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
I agree.
I wish there were some better options right now. The pitching situation looks awfully bleak….
Come on Peter, we all know how you feel about this subject. Let it go.
“If Hughes gets hurt in two weeks, somebody has to answer for that.”
Zzzzzzzzzz. He could get hurt just as easily in AAA. The only way to prevent a ballplayer from getting hurt is not allowing him to play. What do you think they do in AAA? Have a tea party? They play ball!
Hughes is 20, making his first start, and he did OKAY. Nothing great, but considering his age and inexperience, it was a nice start.
He should get better and better throughout the year.
absolutely correct. yankees better get things righted or they will be up for a tough fight against the renewed al east
You’re a hoot, Peter. First time this season a Yankee starter K’d more than a hitter an inning. If it hadn’t been for two pathetic ground ball singles in the 5th you’d be reporting how well he pitched.
Elb: he gave up seven hits in 4.1. Striking out Adam Lind three times doesn’t impress me. Lind was in the International League too a few weeks ago.
Hughes certainly didn’t pitch well but the idea that he was rushed is preposterous. What else do you want him to do? Do you think starting Kei Igawa would be more beneficial? At this point do you really believe that Phil Hughes is BEHIND Igawa in terms of being able to pitch in the majors? I’d really love to hear your answer.
Did he pitch well? No, he did not. But he was getting squeezed all night and certainly deserved a better fate and certainly deserves another start.
I’m amazed with all your scouting ability and player development knowledge that you are just beat writer. If he gets hurt in 2 weeks it won’t be because of WHERE he is pitching that theory has many holes in it. You can get hurt doing anything and the guys everyone loves to point at as examples were ABUSED at young a age. This has never been the case with Phil and again tonight 90 pitches than out. Is he ready probably not but again who else? Should they have kept Chase Wright up and just thrown him to the wolves again. Its so easy to be a baseball exec when you are sitting behind a laptop.
Whos arguing with you Pete? We all know hes 20 yrs old and he should be in Trip A til June at the earliest.
Its sad that hes the best option we got now. But it makes no sense to keep him at triple A so we can shuffle out there guys like Rasner.
Starting pitching wins titles and we dont have the starting pitching. You cant rely on bullpens to give you 5 innings every night.
There is a reason those guys are pitching in middle relief.
Pete, you are 100% correct. Great prospect, not ready for the majors, even though we all know why he is here.
If the majors was, “on the job training”, then Tampa Bay would win the division every year since they always throw their young pitchers into the fire.
Its the wrong way to develop pitching, which is why the Yankees can’t develop pitching.
What’s next, Joba Chamberlain to the rotation, after extended spring training?
Bottom line, the team is a trainwreck and, at some point, heads are going to roll. Whether its Cashman, Torre or both, somebody is getting fired if they get swept by the Red Sox.
Toronto has more injuries than the Yankees. Yet, they find ways to win.
I know you like Joe Pete but, he gets his share of the blame too. Can’t make $7 mil a year and only get wins when everybody fires on all cyclinders. Battting Minky second tonight? Its just bad, man. I’m afraid is in over his head when it comes to having to do more than just push buttons.
Bottom line, its a bad baseball team and its not just Brian Cashman’s fault. The manager has had his share of issues this season.
Its a very, very bad baseball team and that runs from the top on down.
At some point, bad baseball teams make changes. Only a matter of time.
You need to get over it, Pete.
We all get it.
Pete doesnt your last line kind of refute your entire argument? you said ‘they dont have anyone else’
Im not disagreeing with your theory but if they really dont have anyone else what are we supposed to do?
Pete’s right. this is very disturbing.
I don’t understand this sentiment that he’s not ready for the majors: He has two plus pitches (curve and fastball) and another pitch that’s on its way there (change). It’s not like he got battered around tonight, two seeing eye singles found their way through in the fifth.
when do you think Mike myers will get another lefty out?
Pete, you sound like you’re hoping he gets hurt so you can be the first to say “I told you so”
I’d much rather see Hughes out there for 95 pitches a night and skipping a start here and there than Rasner or Igawa.
Theres a reason Rasner was cut by the Nationals.
Face facts. Cashman made a terrible choice not getting Zito, Lilly, or Dice K.
Peter,
The problem with the pitching the past few weeks is some of these guys were unable to strike out the Adam Lind’s of the world. He got squeezed in the first, he got jobbed in the 5th (personally the throw was there in enough time to make me think it should have been an error to begin with), and one of the best players in the game hit him hard because Jorge kept calling for the same pitch against them.
It was actually refreshing to see a starting pitcher miss some bats and induce some weak outs.
Confidence in his breaking ball?
Puleeezzee.
The kid’s got a plus plus breaking ball. He’s got confidence.
And ST counts for diddly, otherwise Sardinha would be competing w/ Arod for the triple corwn, rather than hitting .200 in AAA.
Fact is, he’s the best pitcher we have now not named Wang, and that’s likely to be the case once Moose comes back as well.
He’s not going to learn to pitch to big league hitters in AAA.
Enough!
Torre can not get the most out of the talent given to him. The solution is not to give him more talent. Torre must go. At this rate he will be gone very soon.
My guess is Bowa is Torre’s replacement. Steinbrenner will wont a manager with some fire in his belly.
I’m at those who want to rip Pete for having an opinion.
Isn’t this what the blog is supposed to be?
Ripping his player development skills? What, pray tell, are the player development skills of those who are ripping him?
For those who are ripping Pete, tell us all your success stories in developing pitching prospects for the major leagues.
Tell us, without reading Bill James, your philosophies on pitching and how they should be implemented. We would all like to hear them.
Phil Hughes is 20 years old. He is as inexperienced a kid as you can have on this stage. He shouldn’t be here. Period.
He is here because he currently plays on one of the worst teams in major league baseball and they are DESPERATE for ANYBODY who can pitch. If this team was good, he wouldn’t be here.
Why risk him? You don’t think its risky? Well, Liriano, King Felix, Jason Johnson and Rich Harden, to name a few, would disagree with some of your assessments on pitching young guys at the big league level too soon.
That said, lay off Pete. You disagree with him do something novel. Engage in reasons WHY, and stop calling him names. Its gutless.
He doesn’t need to take that crap from anybody.
The team sucks right now. Grow up and deal with it and lay off the guy who provides this forum for our daily give and take!
Peter…you’re killing me.
Striking out Adam Lind three times doesn’t impress you. Wonderful. Then what will you be impressed with at SWB? He probably won’t face anyone better than Adam Lind at AAA. How will he be in more bases loaded situations down there? No one can hit his fastball-curve combo down there so he’ll work out of the stretch fairly infrequently.
His Major League debut was a mixed bag. He was only hurt by a couple of All Star caliber hitters, and he showed some very good things as well. If he gets another start and goes 7 innings with 4 hits, one walk, and 9 strikeouts will you be saying the same thing? If he pitches the rest of the season in the Bronx with a 3.75 ERA will you be howling at the moon about the fact that he should be at AAA? Talk about small sample size.
How bad is it when Toronto scores 2 runs on 3 walks, a wild pitch and a fly ball???
I can’t get the game on tv, but I hope the Stadium crowd gave it to Proctor but good. Same for Myers when he came in. Does anyone know what the crowd reaction was??
CJC: Do you really think a 20-year-old kid does’t overthrow with 50,000 people in the stands and Frank Thomas at the plate as opposed to pitching in Scranton? I’ve been doing this a long time and I’ve seen it before.
Or if he’s up 2-1, pitching great in the 7th and he’s at 90 pitches. Leave him him or bring in one the overworked relievers. Joe Torre wants to keep his job and he leaves him in.
The Yankees had a nice plan and they tossed it out the window.
I have seen 20+ readers here saying how much they want him here and that I’m crazy. I’m just trying to point out why I think that way.
Oh wait, so Pete gets to express his opinion, and no one can disagree SJ44?
btw, the examples you gave re other young pitchers have all been dismissed here and at other baseball blog in the last few days.
Meanwhile, here’s Baseball America’s Jim Callis yesterday:
“Not at all. He has a great arm, better than anyone they have. He’s ready.”
Pete, have you said who you thought should have pitched instead of Hughes?
I hope they get swept this weekend and someone else is managing this team in Texas on Tues May 1.
The division will be gone but a Wildcard would be doable.
How can you say we should have gotten Dice-K or Zito. What really ticks me off more than anything is that us fans are the same people that say that Boston overpaid for Dice K and that it was irrational and that the Giants contract for Zito makes no sense yet at the same time we should have gone out and gotten them and let’s say they dont pan over the long term there would be a bunch of comments how could cashman paid that kind of money. You cant have it BOTH ways.
When it comes to Pavano remember we were not the only people willing to pay the money that he got, the red Sox were if nto the same then maybe even higher and he chose here he has not worked out.
Igawa that is a different story there were not that many people I read or heard that thought he was a top of the line pitcher he was a 4 or 5 so far this year he has been asked to be much more than that and has not worked out.
Somewhere here our pitchers are going to have to step up hopefully Moose will be back next week, Wang is only making his second start of the year this weekend.
I have not hit the panic button yet I hope others dont either.
at this point in the season we should have SWB replace the entire yankees lineup…whats the worse that can happen?
Peter, I generally agree with you, and I do think that Cashman made a gross mistake trusting both Igawa and Pavano to be valuable contributors to the winning effort this season.
However, I disagree with you about Hughes. He can help this team win and grow himself at the same time. He is clearly going to be better than Karstens and Rasner and Igawa. You can tell just by looking at his stuff and his poise out there. And he’s not far off from that point already, but he’s going to need to face big-league quality hitters to obtain that extra preparedness so he can make the necessary adjustments. The only drawback I see is that he is likely to tax the bullpen even more since they are going to be understandably cautious with managing his pitch count. But it’s more of a waste of his arm to have him pitch any further in AAA. And he is actually very good at holding runners on, but tonight just isn’t a good example of that. And Jorge has struggled mightily throwing the ball this season, including tonight, so he is partly to blame for the baserunning madness.
I’d be curious to see what the BP guys think about having him up in the big leagues. From the limited stuff I’ve read from them, I think they are mostly in favor of him developing in the big leagues rather than in AAA.
Peter,
Yes, a 20-year old kid overthrows when there are 50,000 people in the stands and Frank Thomas at the plate. Guess what? So does everyone else. Pitching at SWB does not, I repeat, does not in any way, shape, or form prepare a man to pitch in those conditions. You know what does?
Pitching to Frank Thomas in front of 50,000 fans. Every player goes through it at some point in their lives. That’s why they call it a “debut”. That’s why people don’t throw the fish back after the “debut”. They let the sample size grow and watch how the player reacts to a month of work, or two months of work. That’s what happens in every sport. Hughes can’t be judged ready or not ready by today. He will show us how ready he is by his 4th or 5th start. If he’s doo-dooing the bed in start #5, he goes back. He’s a big boy. He can take it.
I’m done. I’m a third gen Yankees fan but I guess there are times when its time to not get too insane about this. It is what it is.
I’m sure the Yankees will be fine, moves will be made and we’ll get these five games back, but until then, this is too painful.
I’m just wasting way too many brain cells and gray hairs thinking about this.
This team is a sad failure.
Phil Hughes has been brought up for the wrong reasons. He needs to develop a third pitch at AAA. We are just desperate for someone to save this crummy season, a season that may not be salvagable. Asking a 20 year old kid to be the savior is just plain crazy.
gargoyle, saying that the division will be gone by May 1 has got to be the most stupid comment I’ve read in this blog since I started reading like 6 months ago. And believe me, I’ve read a couple of stupid comments here.
hey pete- arent you going to question why the pack of drunk fans gave 4 Inning Phil a standing-o for less than quality start?!
the worst part about it is that no one on the team seems to care…i understand joe is a mellow and patient guy, however there is no accountability on this team whatsoever
By the way Hughes is our 3rd best starter. I hope Peter gives his permission to let him stay.
Joe is not mellow…he is embalmed!
“Elb: he gave up seven hits in 4.1. Striking out Adam Lind three times doesn’t impress me. Lind was in the International League too a few weeks ago.”
Putting aside the fact that Adam Lind is one of baseball’s top offensive prospects, every Yankee starter has faced in every game, guys who were recently in triple A (or should be there now). Yet brian bruney is econd on the team in K’s. And who exactly do you think is in Triple A? It’s the Andy Phillips of the world. The taxi squad. The real prospects move through AAA in a hurry.
Who cares what Jim Callis thinks? What is he, the gospel of pitching?
You can disagree with Pete. Can’t you do it without personalizing it or are you incapable of communicating without namecalling?
I know Jim Callis. Good guy, a fan, just like us.
You think if Jim Callis was in CHARGE of a major league ballclub he would be so flip? Not a chance.
Pete’s right. They had a good plan and they panicked.
Now, you can’t put the cap back on the bottle. It was a dumb move, one of several they have made.
Now, you hope the worst doesn’t happen. All you can do.
This kid is not going to be a “savior”. I just hope he can hang for a few weeks.
Why should they care…over rated, over payed fat cats. Disgusting.
I’m on the “Let Him Pitch” side of the argument, but why did the Yankees send down Rasner? He only really had one bad start, didn’t really do anything to have him optioned down like…I don’t know, Jeff Karstens did.
Mike: My concern is injury more than anything else.
Pete, I agree. If Cash did not want to bid more last eyar for Dice-K he should have gotten Ted Lill who knew how ot pitch in the AL (not great but then ughes would not have been rushed). I thought Cash had a plan – is he panicking as well?
It’s April people. We have been without Moose and Wang almost the entire month. The team is scoring at a ridiculous pace. The starters are getting healthy and we should be able to finally field a rotation of:
Wang
Mussina
Pettitte
Hughes
Igawa/Pavano/Rasner
If we are still this bad at the end of May, I’ll eat my hat. We may not be in 1st by then, but we should be near the upper part of the AL East before too long. Torre will be the manager. Mientikiewicz will be the firstbaseman. It’s a long season full of ugly times and happy times and judging it by a few weeks is silly. The Yankees were 8-11 last April too and finished with the best record in the sport. Take it easy.
SJ, just shut up already. No personal insult, but stop raining on our parade. Other than A Rod there has been very little to be happy about with this season, so why do you and Peter have to ruin it with your negativity? Please, cut the crap, it is ridiculously annoying.
Phil Hughes, all of 4 1/3 innings of major league experience is the Yankees third best pitcher??
No, he isn’t. Sorry.
Rich,
He’s a 20 year old homegrown kid, who for the first time this season, showed us what its like to miss some bats and not go full on every batter. Little bit different than a $100 million dollar 26 year old who had already made 4 starts in the major leagues.
Any of you guys could GM the Yankees with that payroll. Cashman is not a major league GM. He is a frequent shopper…he belongs at Costco or WalMart.
Peter, in any other organization P-Huge is in the majors last year. He is ready and he will be fine.
Geesh….I don’t agree with Pete all the time, but he nailed it 100% with this post. I am baffled by anyone who says Hughes is ready. Seriously…baffled.
Ah, so Hughes can only be injured in the bigs, not in AAA.
If that’s the case, maybe we need to send all our pitchers to AAA…
I tend to trust the words of writers from Baseball America than local beat writers. I agree that Philip Hughes was not brought up under the best circumstances; however, he is one the five best pitchers in the Yankees organization. And I truly believe that he will be a special part of this team as the season progresses. He needed to get this first start out of the way and he did; it didn’t matter in retrospect because our offense was asleep at the wheel.
My only hope is that the Yankees don’t play around with Hughes and shuttle him back-and-forth. Keep him up here. The fact is that we cannot trust Carl Pavano and Kei Igawa at all. We need a stable presence in our rotation and I am comfortable with Hughes filling that void. It would be nice to fill the other void with Roger Clemens, but that’s besides the point.
Jeff,
No, but thanks for expressing yourself. Now, have mommy put you to bed and it will be better tomorrow.
Pete…I hear you man. Injury is a worry. Scott Kazmir is a good way to look at Hughes. Up at 20-21. Maybe too early. Maybe not. He is one of the best 10-15 pitchers in the sport and he’s been hurt a few times. I think that has more to do with the approach that TB has taken with him. Hughes doesn’t have to be the Yankees savior. We have 3 guys ahead of him in the rotation. He has to be the 4th starter and we can baby him at the MLB level. We can watch his pitch counts and innings just as easily in the Bronx as we can in SWB with a much larger fish tank to grow to.
TB had to overwork Kazmir because they had no one else. There is a precedent, but with Hughes at the bottom of the NYY rotation instead of at the front, I think it’s win-win. Just my humble opinion.
Guys,
It’s April 26 and, yes, the team blows right now. Two years ago, the team started 10-19. A week ago, we were all euphoric after the Indians sweep.
It’s a marathon and I’m betting this team looks a bit different by Aug. 1.
We all need to relax. Enjoy the NFL Draft this weekend and look forward to the calendar changing to May (I’m sure the Yankees are).
Don’t be worried about injury. He’s a pitcher. This is what he does. And he doesn’t have the Prior/Wood motion.
He’ll be fine.
What a crazy culture of pitching we’ve created. They are all so babied the second they throw 110 pitches, the injury fears are out.
Crazy.
We could all learn from Japan on this issue. Or should I say the way we used to do it here. Throw, throw, throw.
See Peter and SJ, by your over-negativity you invite trolls like Paul Calta on here who just spout out bullcrap. Suddenly it is fashionable to trash the Yankees. Truth is Peter, you made up your mind before even seeing Phil pitch, thus your comments not much different after the first and after he was gone. Lucky you, you actually got the story right today huh? Guess you didn’t notice when he retired I think 7 in a row and looked dominant. He can help the team now, that’s all that matters.
Peter,
What’s the difference between him tearing a labrum in Scranton and tearing it in the Bronx? If he’s going to get hurt, he’s going to her hurt. Where it happens is irrelevent. It’s not like either Dusty Baker or Joe Girardi are his manager and letting him throw 120 pitches a la Mark Prior or Johnson.
Kids can struggle when they first hit the bigs. Hell, veterans struggle too sometimes. AJ Burnett lasted 2 innings his first start of the season and gave up 6 earned runs over 2 innings.
The fact is, Hughes hung tough for his first MLB outing. I am very pleased. Sitting down at AAA does nothing more than allow him to gain the false sense of security that facing big league hitters quickly erases. He will learn and by all reports he is very good at making adjustments. If he takes his lumps he takes his lumps. That’s part of the growing process for young guys.
Also, not too many 20-22 year old pitchers light up the world upon hitting the majors. They need time and experience and usually they get hit pretty hard at first. But he truly is at this point the Yanks’ best option. He has very good stuff and better command than most pitchers on the roster. If you can get 5-6 innings of 4.50-5.20 era starts out of him this year for 150-170 innings it would be great.
Bonderman hit the bigs the same age as Hughes did today. He lost 19 games. He got hit really hard on a terrible hitting club. Last year he closed out the juggernat yankee lineup with ease in the playoffs. Good pitchers do not develop overnight. The only thing I hope is that Yanks have the patience to understand that this will take time. But having him learn at AAA where he will not face these quality hitters does nothing more than retard his development IMO.
Great job Phil! Here’s to the next one.
I don’t agree when you say that Hughes “needs to learn how to hold runners and get ahead in counts along with establishing faith in his off-speed and breaking pitches. That’s why they have the minor leagues”
He has done all of that at the minor league level already. He is above average at everything you mentioned in that list of why he should stay in the minors. I guess your point is that he should do more of that at AAA, but I think that’s wasting a valuable resource. Look at it like this; you say that striking out Adam Lind 3 times isn’t that impressive. Then why should he spend any more time facing inferior batters like Lind in the minors if getting them out consistently won’t impress you? I hope I’m not coming off as a jerk when I say that, but my point is, what will impress you then? Getting out Frank Thomas consistently will, and we won’t know if he can do that if they keep him in AAA since they are full of Adam Lind caliber players.
SJ, wait what is it are we allowed the personal insults are not? You tell me not to use them and then you use them on me? Typical Red Sox fan, set the rules of engagement then change them. Congrats on the Sox, fake blood or not, they are classy.
If they keep Hughes in the minor, they’ll have him on the pitch count, once he reached the limit they’ll yank him out no matter what, but you can’t do that in the Major where every game count. I think that’s what Pete is saying that he’s more concerning about the injury.
Welcome to implosion year
Dice-K is 2-2 with a 4.00 ERA. He’s tough when he pitches down in the zone, but he can be hit. Is that worth $103 mil?? The anks made a fair bid but Bo$ton’s intent is to buy a pitching staff. They currently have 9 free agents on their 12 man staff. The money Barry Zito got was just absurd.
Cashman stockpiled prospects, and he was rightly praised for it. But prospects are prospects and not major league ready pitchers. They’re not ready to jump in when injuries hit and Carla Pavano goes down with his annual excuse.
I guess we need to be patient and understand that other than Wang & Pettite, our best pitching is in the minor leagues. This year may turn out to be a transition year. We can only hope that in 2 years the Yanks have a young nucleus with Hughes, Ohlendorf & Clippard.
To Pete’s point, throwing them into the fire when they should still be learning their craft might not be in the best long term interest of the team.
The argument I’m not really that into is that he could injure himself.
Yes, he could injure himself; but he could injure himself ANYWHERE. If he pitched in AAA and injured himself, then what would we be saying? Nobody here (to my knowledge) are major league scouts. Don’t you think they might know a little bit more then all of us about evaluating talent? When a scout, who has probably been scouting players for years, say that somebody is ready to be in the majors, shouldn’t that be enough for a fan, a writer, or even somebody who doesn’t even pay attention to the sport to go “Hey, maybe he is”?
Prior got injured because of freak accidents, and sadly a string of bad luck. Liriano has always had a history of injury, which was one reason why he was traded in the first place. Felix has a violent delivery. Injuries were expected to happen to him. Dontrelle Willis never pitched in AAA, and now he’s one of the top ten starters in the National League, and even with his violent motion, has never been on the DL.
Injuries could of happened ANYWHERE to him. Why should that be a concern? Hughes is mentally ready and has two fine pitches, and a very good one (which by the way, if he’s working on that changeup, I wonder how it would look like in a year…jeez some beautiful stuff).
I think we’re overreacting about a little change of plans about this.
Listen. I don’t agree with Peter at all about this. I didn’t agree with him about some of the A-Rod stuff earlier in the year. He’s a very good writer, and he has a good baseball head. This blog is an excellent service to the fans, and a great place to debate some of these things. It’s up to the people who come here to post to use it wisely. I can’t say that Peter has any secret KGB agenda to smear anyone or toy with readers.
Better to post here with a point/counterpoint style and let the arguments stand for themselves. Attack mode just degenerates the conversation. If you disagree with him, explain why. Don’t create conspiracy theories about his motives. I think his ulterior motive is to use this blog to overthrow Kim Jong Il, but I’m still working on my background evidence for that…..
Hey Jeff NJ.
Stick to the baseball and don’t get personal like that here. Its uncalled for.
“The Yankees were 8-11 last April too and finished with the best record in the sport. Take it easy.”
you take it easy. my eyes see a team in disarray. you want to use the yankees for a hughes developmental league. he has no arm strength. 90mph after 75 pitches. maybe he’s been babied ,but he’s only good for 75 pitches right now. his arm is not strong enough.
why throw him into this mess? you have a blue chip pitcher and you want to take a chance on asking too much of him. he does not have good stuff from 75 pitches on right now. bring him up to 100 pitches at triple a and if he can still throw his maximum velocity in the late innings than maybe. till then , forget it.
Jeff NJ;
The beauty of Blogs are that we all get to express views. I do not agree with all of yours but I do agree that some of us, including me are very negative.
I do envy people like you that put on the rose colored glasses; it does make for a happier life. Cheers and lets all not take this stuff too seriously or personally. A little humor goes a long way as well.
“Bonderman hit the bigs the same age as Hughes did today. He lost 19 games. He got hit really hard on a terrible hitting club. Last year he closed out the juggernat yankee lineup with ease in the playoffs. Good pitchers do not develop overnight.”
Bonderman pitched 1 decent pro season at High A before being sent to the bigs. He didn’t have good command of his pitches yet as evidenced by his BB/9, and was obviously rushed. This isn’t even close to the same situation.
Peter: The Yankees have had three prospects wind up needing Tommy John surgery within the past year…not one threw a major league pitch. If Hughes has the stuff, command and makeup, there’s no reason to waist his arm in Scranton. Unless you want to simply mail this season in, the Yankees have to throw out the 5 best starters in the organization. Phil Hughes is definitely one of them.
Mike: I appreciate your optimism, but something just doesn’t seem right about this team. I hope you’re right and I’m wrong.
Jeff,
You think I am a Red Sox fan? Not very bright are you?
You told me to shut up. That’s not an insult?
Here’s a tip. Grow up.
You want to insult people, expect to get it in return. Can’t take it, don’t start it.
Here’s another tip. In the sports world, if a person’s favorite team is in last place, folks aren’t going to be holding hands and singing kumbala.
If you can’t handle negativity in discussing the Yankees right now, you must be pleased they are in last place.
And you think I am a Red Sox fan?? lol
Can the insults and engage in debate. If you are incapable of doing so, just say so.
Keep getting personal, then expect it right back.
This reaction to the year is identical to 2005. Everyone panicked and said it was over in April, and then the Yankees won the division anyway.
Wang has made one start this year. Moose is still DL’d. They didn’t score tonight, but this team will score runs.
With Wang back, you have two really good pitchers — Pettitte and Wang. When Mike gets back, you have a good number three. If Hughes sticks around, you have a nice four. Hopefully Pavano will make it back, but if not Igawa should be able to hold down the number five spot.
With Pettitte and Wang, the bullpen should get a little rest.
The season is NOT over. It’s April. The Yankees have to get their sh-t together, but it’s not done quite yet. So stop jumping out the window and abandoning your team.
Sure I can tone it down, it’s not like I called him a Nappy Haired Ho, but it sure seems like he is baiting us and ruining a great day for us regardless of the outcome. I think we were all scammed on this blog and I don’t think Peter should have trashed him after one inning, he’s no better than the Hello?Offense? guy who no longer comes around because he is no longer needed to create division and controversy, expecially with baiting articles like Peter’s. It’s like he wanted him to fail and that makes me sick as no Yankee fan would want that. Oh and by the way, I think Peter should have to be a Yankee fan to write a blog this popular. I guarentee you the other blogs will cover this much more postiviely. Now I have to go, SJ said my Mom wants me to get to bed. Feel free to criticize him for the personal attack. By the way Dave Justice agrees that Hughes is worth a look as the 5th starter.
Say what you like, Yankee fans…. Talk down DiceK all you like. The facts remain that the Sox have the best record in all of baseball and are 5.5 games ahead of you after just one month. Even if you sweep us this weekend, you’re still far out of first… So tell me honestly, you wouldn’t gladly switch positions with Boston right now?
Here’s a scary thought…what if Mussina comes back and still can’t throw more than 84 mph?
I know it’s April, but I look at this team and I just don’t see winning in our future.
I’m not even worried about the starting pitching, because I think that will right itself over time. What bothers me is the bullpen which gives out as many runs as outs, and then the weak links in our lineup.
I cannot understand why you have Minky batting 2nd, under any circumstances. There’s no reason for it.
A game like this shows further poor planning on the yankees part: Minky and Cairo are batting in the same lineup. These people generally negate all the good the others in the lineup may do. The injuries hurt, but you can’t expect to go a season without them. Cairo and Minky as our bench? That’s the kind of thing that troubles me more than Hughes coming up too early.
The team is not in disarray. The injuries to our starters has forced us to use Chase Wright for 2 starts. That’s a problem. It’s over. When you see Wang, Mussina, and Pettitte going out every 5th day in front of this offense, the team will turn around. It’s as simple as math.
The pitchers we’ve been using to replace Moose and Wang give up at least a run more than either of them per 9 innings. If you reduce the ERA, while maintaining the scoring pace, you increase the wins. You don’t have to be a Rhodes Scholar to see that. If you turn around the game that Mo blew in Boston, and replace Chase Wright with Mussina, you get 2-3 more wins probably. If you then add Wang to that mix instead of Karstens and forget that Mike Myers gave up a grand slam to Carl Crawford, you could conservatively give the Yankees one more win. If you swing 3 games to the win column, conservatively, you’d have a record of 11-9. If you give them a swing of an optimistic 5 wins, they are 13-7. Injuries play a big role in this situation, and they are behind us. Talk to me on May 31st.
Pete’s argument is that he’ll overcompensate at this level….not because he’s throwing pitches. Why? Because he’s 20 years old. Yes, he dominated in AA. But there is skill level gap the size of the Grand Canyon between AA and the Majors. He gets experience staying in the minors. He learns to handle situations without overcompensating. It’s going to take the same situation to happen several times before he figures the best way he can handle it. He needs to learn it, love it…then live it before he’s ready.
pitchers overthrow when they are tired. hughes got tired today at 65-70 pitches. it has nothing to do with stuff,poise, make up, and all that other good stuff. he just doesn’t have the arm strengtyh and endurance.
you don’t learn on the job on a fatigued arm that isn’t trained for 100 pitches. it’s too dangerous.
“It’s like he wanted him to fail and that makes me sick as no Yankee fan would want that.”
Peter is NOT a yankee fan.
“By the way Dave Justice agrees that Hughes is worth a look as the 5th starter.”
David Justice also married and divorced Halle Berry, that doesn’t make him a marriage counselor.
Reno:
Oh I understand that Hughes is much more established and polished than Bonderman at 20. What I am saying is that pitching development takes time at the MLB level, but that time is really all wasted when a kid stays in the minors.
Sure some guys come out of the gate looking great, but the usual scenario for guys with very good but not once in a generation stuff (and that is Hughes to me) is that it takes time. He is going to have to battle at the MLB level. But there is no reason to wait.
“So tell me honestly, you wouldn’t gladly switch positions with Boston right now?”
Not really, because I can’t get my head that far up my butt.
Thanks for playing though.
CAPTAIN OBVIOUS ON OVERLOAD OVER HERE MAN.
Mike: That’s just too optimistic. Even when Moose returns, TWO rookies are going to be in the rotation. Torre has already shown he will not be able to manage a bullpen that doesn’t have dominant components beyond Mo (no more simple formulas). Also, the bench is pathetic. Anytime there is an injury or a defensive replacement, the offense is really going to suffer.
There are a lot of holes on this team that I blindly overlooked going into the season. Now, I guess you can bring up 2005, but Cashman caught lightening in a bottle TWICE with Small and Chacon. Even the biggest optimist can’t expect that to happen again.
Pete, no more great faith in Cash? I thought you believed “Cash money” as you call him was doing exactly the right thing with the team?
Baiting? Are you for real?
This is debate as to whether or not the Yankees should rush their best prospect to the majors. There have been good points made by people on both sides of the debate.
Because you disagree with Pete and I, we are “Red Sox fans” or we are “baiting” people? Really, kid you gotta grow up.
You have to be kidding.
What is so “great” about tonight? They just lost their sixth straight game. They are in last place. The team is a mess and you think its a “great” day, because we aren’t waving the pom poms over Phil Hughes’ first start.
Do yourself a favor and put down the pom poms and explain why today was so “great”.
Anybody who reads this blog knows I am not a Red Sox fan nor troll.
If you can’t handle debate, that’s your problem.
But, can the cheerleading nonsense. Its not making you look good in this discussion.
The Yanks kept Hughes on a strict pitch count last year and I’m sure they will this year too. The only way he’s going to give the Yanks quality starts of 6+ ininngs is if he keeps himself ahead in the count. Otherwise, he’ll be another 4 -5 inning starter and if that’s the case he’d be better off being in Scranton learning to throw his changeup.
I’m not going to chime in on your debate because I know enough to know that I don’t know enough about young arms.
I think Pete is saying that even if Hughes pitched 7 shutout innings he doesn’t like having him in the Bronx in April. How long does he stay? Probably depends on if the the other starters not named Pettitte and Wang can start giving quality starts. If Phil pitches horribly, he’s gone.
Maybe Pete’s concerned because of how Torre will manage him because they were able to baby him in AAA. But I think that Gator will wrestle Torre to the ground if he sees Joe trying to kill Phil’s arm.
I was very impressed with how Phil came back to pitch in the 2nd, 3rd, & 4th innings. He certainly did show those intangibles that preceded his debut. He didn’t get upset when he got the rookie squeeze. He shook off 4-5 offerings from Posada until he got the pitch he wanted and struck out the batter. Don’t remember who it was, maybe one of the AAA guys like Pete said, but I was impressed because of his confidence.
A little bit (any) run support and the results wouldn’t look that bad. I’m sure that he’s disappointed, but I think he’ll figure it out.
Randy,
Very good points. He did seem to tire after 75 pitches.
The talent is there. I really wish though, they didn’t call him up this soon.
But, the cat is out of the bag now. Its gonna be tough to send him down unless some other guys step up in the rotation.
Its definitely not the optimum way to do it though.
Dude, here’s the question, if you knew in advance that the Yankees would not be winning the world series this year, so in essence it’s a rebuilding year, would you rather he gets experience up here this year and be all set for next year or just not be called up to September. Things are getting ugly, and not to give up on the season but the team really needs him to develop, and I think this helps his development. Michael Kay just said he should stay. Oh and Al Leiter too. Ok now it’s time for you to discredit Kay and Leiter. I remain confident in the Yankees for the long term. Who’s with me?
Ed W,
I got you now. We’re on the same page.
mike plugh-
i’m glad you said”we”. we’re on the same side here. we agree on that i was saying the same thing you are with the yankees+ run differential . i thought they could just have easily been 11-8 .
but tonight this has gone too far. rivera doesn’t pitch again. what’s up with that? things are just not making sense.
aren’t you the least bit concerned about hughes’ velocity as the game went on? they don’t condition triple aaa pitchers to go more than 85 pitches. hughes is at least a month away from 100 pitches. do you think he has arm strength right now? if you do why?
Ok fine…so let’s keep Hughes in Scranton. Who is going to pitch then?? The Yankees will not win with two slots filled by Igawa, Karstens or Rasner. There best chance for success this year is for Hughes to get settled and live up to the hype. If not, it will be a rebuilding year anyway.
So guys, are we in agreement that P-Huge is a vastly superior nickname to Phil Franchise?
If that’s how he pitches when he’s tired, the kid has a bright future. An infield single (should have been an error), a groundball single (double play ball if the runner was still at first) a strikeout, and honestly, if the offense wasn’t so woeful tonight, I’d probably have pitched around Wells that inning too, some guys just have your number.
How many CF’s throw out the runner on Thomas’ sac fly by the way?
Great points Mike…Hughes’ 5th inning was the result of Cairo’s misplay and the ump’s blown call. Aside from Wells single, that inning wasn’t his fault.
John, I totally agree. Finally a sane opinion.
Mike, I think Phil got a bit squeezed early on and Wells kept beating him on fastballs. But hey Wells is one of the top hitters in the world, Hughes will learn, I bet next time he faces Wells, he’ll do much better. This kid picks things up very quickly and has a great make up. He may be our main highlight of the year, so I’m going to enjoy it.
It seems like in a very short time frame it went from Pete reporting the news and saying he cared about fast games and good stories to telling opinions and criticizing ones that weren’t his own.
If anyone says P-Huge again we are going to set the record for consecutive loses. I prefer we called him “The Aviator” or something, but P-Huge that ****s nasty.
P-Huge is a much better nickname than Phil Franchise.
PHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTWPHUGEFTW
Michael Kay and Al Leiter work for whom? They work for the Yankees. You don’t think they are going to tow the party line?
They have opinions, just like all of us have opinions.
Michael Kay also thought the Yankees made a huge mistake two years ago bringing up Wang and Cano. You want to discuss that opinion?
So, its now a “rebuilding” year, 20 games into the season with a $170 million dollar payroll? I am sure the 40,000+ season ticket holders at Yankee Stadium would love to know its now a rebuilding year.
No, its not a rebuilding year. Its time for this team to get going and its not going to come from a 20 yr old kid.
You don’t “learn” how to pitch in the major leagues when you have thrown less than 200 minor league innings.
That’s how guys get hurt.
Instead of listening to Yankee shill announcers, then parroting their opinions, try doing some research.
Baseball is FILLED with young guys who have had “too much, too soon”, (innings-wise) in the majors and its killed careers.
You really want to run that risk with Phil Hughes? Why? What’s the point of that? He’s not the savior! He’s a kid!
What did we see tonight? We saw a kid with very good stuff, who had trouble pitching out of the stretch, tired after 75 pitches and had real trouble locating his change. That enabled Toronto’s hitters to key on his fastball.
All the kind of things pitchers learn to improve upon in the minors, not the majors.
Talented? Yes. Should be in the rotation? IMO, no.
I could care less what Michael Kay thinks. Since you obviously do, great.
I don’t base my opinions on what others have to say. I use my eyes and experience to form my opinions.
Disagree with them? Fine. Telling me what Yankee announcers are saying about Yankee players isn’t going to change my opinion, nor bolster your argument. Especially since, if those guys said what they REALLY felt, they would be out of a job.
In fact, it strengthens my views because the guys doing the games are shills for the Yankees and nothing more.
SJ44…If it’s not Hughes…then it’s Karstens or Rasner…do you REALLY think the Yankees have a bed chance to win this year with either of those two over Hughes?
“You don’t “learnâ€? how to pitch in the major leagues when you have thrown less than 200 minor league innings.
That’s how guys get hurt.”
You have zero proof that this statement is true.
Some of you people really like to vent.
better chance…not bed…guess my brain is telling me something.
I’m feeling P-Huge too. Phil Franchise doesnt flow at all
Considering when I was arguing with you yesterday you quoted Michael Kay I thought he had some sway with you. Guess that’s only true when he agrees with you. I really am going to sleep soon so we’ll have to continue this argument tomorrow. Check the other blogs tomorrow though, I bet they are all positive on Hughes’s debut.
if the yankees bring him up now what good does it do because he will go over the amount of innings that they would let him pitch for the year. he’ll have to be shut down in september. send him back. bring back rassner and make the best of it. bring hughes back after the allstar break when he’s built up his stamina. 90 mph after 75 pitches isn’t going to cut it .
Lokk Derek Jeter never needed some gimmicky nickname and neither does Hughes. And if it is a nickname I prefer him to be the “Spruce Goose” and have Clemens next to him as “The Rocket”… but even those are retarted, and P-whatever is definately retarted.
Jeter is “The Captain”. P-Huge is “P-Huge”. End of story.
Really? No proof? Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, Francisco Liriano, Mark Fidrych (for you old timers), Jason Johnson.
How many more do you want?
IMO, Hughes isn’t ready to be a contributing member of the team right now. Tonight gave us a glimpse of what he can do but, its not enough to fill their needs, IMO.
He isn’t going to eat innings, which is the REAL need of the team right now. So, aside from folks wanting to see him pitch, what’s the upside?
Who should pitch? Well, once Moose gets back, you have Moose, Wang, Pettitte, Karstans and I’d use Rasner because I don’t want to waste Hughes. He’s on a strict pitch and innings count this year and I would rather see him work on his weaknesses while under such restrictions at AAA than doing it in the majors.
He works on stuff at AAA, and Scranton loses, its no big deal. He loses up here, while trying to figure things out, losses are much bigger. Like tonight, for example.
You can’t be so desperate that you affect the development of a talented kid. IMO, that’s what the Yankees are doing and its a big mistake.
Reno: Enough with the nickname stuff. We get it, you think you came up with something. But P-Huge sounds like a porn star and nobody except you calls him that.
Enough.
Haha, major sports network’s game headline. Blue Jays Drub Hughes. Some Drubbing. Nothing about Burnett at all.
BTW, you know who else struck out Adam Lind 3 times in a game this year? None other than Matsuzaka.
Personally, I thought it was awesome to see a Yankee pitcher with those kind of peripherals for a change. Well, besides Andy that is.
Pete: Whether or not bringing up Hughes was a mistake, you can’t seriously believe that Cashman’s poor judgment in “trusting Pavano to stay healthy” is to blame for that decision. No way was Cashman counting on Hughes as the go-to guy in the event of an immediate injury to Pavano. He in fact inserted Karstens, Rasner, and Wright, and presumably would have used Sanchez but for his injury, as backup starters before getting to Hughes. That’s FOUR other substitute starters ahead of Hughes in the pecking order. If you want to blast Cashman for failing to anticipate needing 10 starting pitchers in the first 20 games of the season, be my guest, but trying to lump the decision to call up Hughes together with Cashman’s supposed “trust” in Pavano is quite a stretch.
As for the merits of calling up Hughes at this time, it seems to me the more time he spends cooling his heels in the minors, when everyone down there thinks he’s ready for The Show, the more pressure he’s going to be under to blow away batters when he finally does get the call-up. How does keeping him down on the farm for another year or two or three going to change the fact that, when he finally does get called up, he may hurt himself trying to impress everybody? Eventually he has to make the transition to the majors and deal with everything that entails. Maybe he will survive that transition and maybe he won’t, but there’s no particular reason to think the transition would be any less risky from an injury standpoint 12 months from now than it is right now.
“Really? No proof? Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, Francisco Liriano, Mark Fidrych (for you old timers), Jason Johnson.”
Is this a joke? Prior and Wood were abused, that’s why they got hurt. It had nothing to do with them “learning to pitch in the majors.” Liriano was injury prone in the minors. His injury also had nothing to do with “learning to pitch in the majors,” it had to do with bad mechanics. And Fidrych was a low K/9 jobber that would have never lasted more than a couple of years anyways.
keep young philip in the rotation..he will get better.
He is better than karstens, igawa, rasner, etc
Pete, I agree with you on that. P-Huge is the stupidest nickname ever. Let’s start by getting him through a nickname worthy rookie season, and then will think of a nickname. But to me, the Yankee greats are better referred to by just their last name. Ruth, Gherig, Dimaggio, Mantle, Jeter, Ford, Rivera, etc.
P-Huge sounds like another creation of Dr. Charles Steinberg. Which is why I refer to tomorrow night’s starting pitcher only as Matsuzaka.
sj44-
sorry about that clock comment on the last post. i was getting a little worked up over the game. i’m in complete agreement with you about hughes needing to be sent back until he’s ready. by ready ,i mean when he has the arm strength to go 100 pitches with all his natural velocity. he’s no where near that.
people are missing the point when they say he’s good enough. it’s not a matter of good enough. he’s not strong enough. it’s like asking someone to run a marathon when they’ve trained for a 10 k. hughes is not ready. if they were trying to get him ready for now they would have been upping his pitch count 6 weeks ago. they didn’t do it. he’s not ready arm wise. i say send him back right now. no harm done tonight. get back on track and bring him up when he’s ready to go 100-110 pitches.
I just got back from the game and Hughes was pretty much exactly what I expected. He hung in there, his mechanics were great–yes, his location was off–but despite the pressure of being one of the most ridiculously hyped Yankees prospects in many years, he did pretty damn well. I am not particlularly worried about his arm because even when he had let up two runs he wasn’t pushing. He’s got great mechanics, and what’s more. He is in good shape and is appears to be pretty responsible. What everybody forgets is that King Felix has never been the best physical specimen and Liriano wasn’t so great about conditioning his arm. Hughes isn’t those guys. He looks ready people.
The ump tonight by the way was an IDIOT. The zone was ridiculous. As was that call at first.
So please, give Hughes a break here. It’s his first start with the team of which he has been deemed the future. He looked good. Certainly better than Chase Wright.
What’s much more worth our time to flip out about Minky being in the two spot. What kind of absolutely retarded move is that? Giving a lot of AB’s to a guy who can’t hit .160, and whose obp is atrocious? Now that’s something to bitch about.
But Hughes? He remains something about which to be excited.
He’s only going to get better from the experience he gained tonight, whether or not he gets sent back down in a month to work more in AAA. This can’t hurt him. Tonight was a good thing people.
Also, the fans (who someone said here can’t wait for a transition year or some bullcrap like that) loved him. So I dunno, in addition to all that, he’s good for business.
So…
Did anyone ask Torre why he batted Meinkiewicz second in this lineup tonight?
Ok, i didn’t mean for the location thing to be struck out. Weird.
Peter.. i think you are way off the mark. to put it mildly..
this team is set up handle a learning n the job by Hughes..
you know what its not SET up for.. the bungling that Mr Joseph Torre every night.. some of the best in-game managers like Scioscia or Guillen would have this team at the top by now..
we all know how the team came back in 05 and 6 after poor starts.. and we have every reason to believe we will take care of the gimme games and get back on track.. but what is happening over the past few seasons.. is a lack of in-game management.. and fix on the fly by Mr Torre..
i think torre is well past grand-father time.. hes great with handling egos and the media ( makes even most media hawks in NYC stand up to him).. but the big picture.. Mr Green Tea shud be gone… he shud have after 04.. 05 and 06..
i still cannot get past ‘not bunting against Schilling in game 6 of 04 alcs.. or his maddening handling of ARod.. if we lose the greatest 3B in the game.. green Tea is a major part of it..
this team needs a new guy.. not to fix this short-term rut.. but for a long-term vew.. for the playoffs.. i doubt we will win anymore post-season series with this guy
Summer: haha, great timing.
“Reno: Enough with the nickname stuff. We get it, you think you came up with something. But P-Huge sounds like a porn star and nobody except you calls him that.
Enough.”
Pete with the good burn.
I don’t disagree with you that Phil should not be here or that more time in AA wouldn’t help but the fear of him injuring himself or overthrowing isn’t going away he wasn’t going to make his major league debut in his mid twenties so it is always a possibilty that he tries too hard. He can get hurt anywhere and the only thing they can do is make sure to watch him closely.
Isn’t Hughes’ fastball range from 90-94 mph with the occaisional 96? Anyone maybe think that the adrenaline from his first major league start may have left a little (and I mean very little) less in the tank towards the end? Everyone here is making it sound like he was throwing a flat 85 at the end. It was still within his normal fastball range and it was still moving. Prior to the wells AB he got 2 groundballs and a strikeout. Honestly with a better defensive shortstop (sadly we don’t have one) that’s a 1-2-3 inning.
A lot of people are referencing the 2005 season when the Yanks got off to a horrible start. Let’s face it, that doesn’t happen often (i.e., coming back from 10-19 to win a division. Well, unless it’s the NL west). And I’m tired of hearing people say “it’s only April”. Hell, that’s the most important month outside of September. The chances of the Yanks winning the AL East in ‘05 were horrible compared to teams who had the same “April fate” in the past. The Yanks have put themselves in a hole and now they will be fighting until the last game just to get in the play-offs. Great if they can do it, probable that they won’t at all.
Peter Abraham: Enough with the nickname stuff. We get it, you think you came up with something. But Phil Franchise sounds like a pathetic nickname only a sportswriter would come up with and nobody except you calls him that.
Enough.
Pete, you touched on the real problem : Cashman. He traded 2 starters this winter, albeit mediocre ones, and got no starters back. He resigned Mussina after half a good season in the last 3 years. He signed Pettite to be a replacement. He passed on Zito, a proven innings eater, and winner. He passed on Lilly, who would have been an acceptable 4th or 5th starter. He signed the wrong Japanese import and paid too much. He’s counted on Wang to be the ace and Wang has had injurys in 2 of the last 4 years. Recently he’s brought in Pavano, Wright and Johnson, then traded 2 of them when they didn’t work out.Did nobody in the front office see the possibility of our current situation based on age and injury history when they assembled this rotation ? You’re right Pete, Cashman has backed himself into a corner and has no options left other than young unproven pitchers. The problems with the rotation lead to all the other problems : overused bullpen; Torre’s confusion and unexplainable moves, hitters pressing and trying to do too much cause they know they have to score so many runs. If this team even wins 1 game against the Sox, they’ll fall 6 back and I don’t care if it is only April, their starting pitching won’t be good enough to come back. This is the year of change all right, when the trading deadline comes around we’ll be sellers not buyers. Bye Bye Cash, Joe, Minky, Jorge, Mo. If you don’t see it, George Bush can sell you a war in Iraq.
If Hughes deserves to stay in the rotation for the rest of the year based on tonight’s performance, why didn’t Chase Wright deserve the same? In fact, Wright’s first outing (relatively-speaking) was better than Hughes’ effort tonight, and his second outing was going well until Boston lit him up for four consecutive homers. Still, everyone wasn’t crying when Wright got deep-sixed back to the minors. So, why is everyone destroying Peter for suggesting you might want to let Hughes finish the year back at AAA, and let someone less valuable in the long run, like Karstens, Rasner, or, as I said, even Chase Wright take the hit. If you think we’re going places with this weak bullpen and the most fragile starting five that I’ve seen in quite some time…Well, I think that’s overly-optimistic, to say the least. Regardless, if you evaluate the Yankee pitching realistically at this point, you need someone you can pile the innings on…kind of like Jack McDowell in ‘95. You don’t need a kid whose pitch count neds to be closely monitored (which Hughes’ should be). I should know…living in Chicago I’ve now seen the careers of two great pitchers (Wood and Prior) butchered by organizations who let them pitch way too much way too soon.
reno-
i have one question for you. what was hughes’ velocity on hiis fast ball after 75 pitches?
it was 89-90. i lied. i have more. does that seem like an impressive velocity to you? hughes doesn’t have the arm strength. this is not rocket science. it’s not that he’s not good enough, he’s not trained enough. they had him on a strict 85 pitch count at scranton.
so how’s he magically supposed to develop the conditioning it takes to go to 100 pitches throwing the 93 -94 that is his natural velocity? you have an answer for that?
he needs to go back to the minors to develop the endurance and strength he needs to go 100-110 pitches.
A 20 year-old pitcher working on a change up for the first time, and who is also rediscovering his slider after having shelved it for years due to concerns about the stress on his tender young arm doesn’t belong on the hill in Yankee Stadium. Hughes is not ML ready. As has been said, he doesn’t have ML arm strength either, but that could develop as the season progresses. The problem comes when a pitcher is having to master more difficult hitters, increasing pitch counts per game, and a new season high in total innings pitched at the same time.
All pitchers who become MLB regulars have to make that transition eventually. But ideally, the transition happens more gradually than is occurring with Hughes. Going from A/AA in 2006 to 16 only innings of AAA in 2007 before being asked to make that triple adjustment in the major leagues is asking for trouble.
I agree with Pete that Phil’s head is in the right place, and that he won’t have a damaged psyche from some bad outings here. It’s the risk of injury from overthrowing and perhaps working a few more batters than he should in a particular game (and not wanting to admit that he’s tired or maybe even a little sore, due to the magnitude of the opportunity) that worries me.
Too tired to read all this (nor do I have the desire right now), but being at the Stadium for that was great, up until the 5th… Kid got a lot of support and a pretty good ovation when he left, everyone knows he’s young and still raw. I don’t know how it looked to anyone on TV (with a better view of how he was actually pitching, hitting his spots, etc…), but innings 2-4 were fun to watch.
Unfortunately, he could have been lights out, given us 9 innings of 1 run ball, and it wouldn’ve been wasted anyway.
I really think trading Randy Johnson was a massive mistake. Coming off the back surgery I think he can be better than the league average starter he was last season, as he should improve from the stretch. We’re obviously really missing that depth right now.
Pete: I like the comment to Reno
Jeff NJ: You gotta relax man. If everyone on this blog all agreed on everything this would be pretty boring. SJ44 and Pete are not drinking the Red Sox kool-aid, they are just stating what they see in this team.
SJ44: I don’t think they should have pulled up Hughes at all this year but I also don’t think Karstens, Rasner, or Igawa are big league pitchers so I guess Cashman was doomed either way. I would be happy if I never had to see Karstens Rasner or Igawa ever pitch again. They are not MLB pitchers and should not be on this team let alone a team like Colorado.
This team is going to be fine. The last two years they have been horrible in April and done fine the rest of the year. The pitching is weak even with the addition of Wang and Moose b/c the 4 and 5 spots are basically L’s right now and that means there is a lot of burden being put on the offense to score 10 runs in those games which makes them swing at everything to try and put up a lot of runs. Also it puts enormous pressure on Pettitte, Wang, and Moose b/c they are going to have to win almost everytime out for this team to make the playoffs if they can’t get more than 4-5 innings out of the 4 and 5 spots. They need to get the Rocket or make a trade for a guy like Lieber just to put someone better than Karstens or Rasner in the rotation. Those guys are bums and should not be on the Yankees.
You guys are jumping to a conclusion too quick. Just based on one start? Those experts had already warn you guys not to have too much expectations during his first few starts!
Ice:
Jorge and Mo aren’t going anywhere. I don’t know what possessed you to say that. OR what possessed you to throw freakin MINKY in that list.
He can walk out the door anytime.
Ice,
Personally what I think Cashman did this offseason with the exception of the bizarre Igawa signing was decide that if we were going to get burned by pitching, it was going to be by pitchers we weren’t stuck with (i.e. short term committments). Zito and Lilly for 5+ years were not the way to go. You develop and retain pitching, and it would have worked if it weren’t for a couple fluke hamstring injuries to start the season.
I don’t get the Matsuzaka thing. It was a bidding process, save bidding $60 million dollars to be absolutely , positively 100% sure, what was he supposed to do? Would people have felt better if he had bid $50 million and still lost? What if the 2nd time through the AL figures Matsuzaka out? What if he gets injured along the way?
Igawa over Ted Lilly was the big mistake Cashman made. Is Lilly a future HOFer? No way! However, he has a proven track record as a serviceable major league pitcher who can give you decent innings…which fits the bill perfectly for a fourth or fifth starter. Igawa had no such proven track record…he was a total unknown commodity in terms of knowing whether he could get big league hitters out here in the US. If anything, Cashman shouldn’t have compounded his mistake by giving Igawa a multi-year deal…but that’s exactly what he did! Now, while the Yankees bullpen dies a little more every night and Igawa has already been booted from the rotation, Lilly is sailing along and giving the Cubs one quality start after another.
Cashman has got to go.
I must also say, I was sitting down in the field championship section, about 20 rows from the field, and Frank Thomas is an absolute giant seeing him in person. Made Mienky look like a midget at first base.
We better win at least 2 games this weekend.
Ice: Cashman would have never thought to bid that much on D-Mat. Red Sox blew everyone out of the water with that bid. The Yanks would have had to almost double there bid to win. Igawa was a panic signing but the actual contract isn’t that bad so I really don’t care what happens to him.
Trading RJ looks bad now but trading Wright was fine by me, the last thing the team needs right now is a 4-5 inning pitcher. Plus he ended up getting hurt, I think. The money would have been better spent on Lilly or Zito but I don’t think it would have been smart to pay those two guys for as long as they got paid. Igawa is only getting 4-5 mil a year against the cap so if he sucks I guess it is easy to trade him.
Reno, He just bombed against the Padres and he was an all around grouch in the locker room, if we still had Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens wouldent even think about coming to NY man, he hates the Unit and quite frankly so do I.
When he had his first conference in New York it was pathetic, answering a reporters question about him being in NY after all these years he said that if he had wanted to come to NY he would have done so before (a freudian slip really). The only reason he came is because Cashman was the only one that would extend his old ass another couple of years, it was made painfully obvious when they introduced him at that conference. I don’t want him and I am glad he is gone.
I want Johnson back about as much as I want Kevin Brown back!
You guys would really want to see Lilly going out there for the next 4 years. He might have a decent year this year but I am tired of watching old pitchers on the down side of there career coming in here. I wish for once they could get a 27 year old ace like Pettitte was back in the day.
Can anyone honestly say that they saw more potential even this year from Chase Wright’s starts than what Hughes did tonight?
Tell me, was it the the K/BB ratio of exactly 1:1, a dismal GB/FB rate, or his inability to keep the ball in the park?
Again, I’m missing the arm strength complaints. Every pitch he threw to Wells in the 5th was at 90 mph. Which is in his previously scouted range for a fastball. He sits 90-94 and touches up to 96. Anyone here ever tried to sprint the first mile of a 5K? How much left do you have on that last mile? That’s basically what you’re dealing with when a 20 year old makes his major league debut to numerous standing ovations at the Stadium. He was probably overthrowing in the first (which doesn’t help velo anyway), and didn’t have quite as much left at the end. That would have happened in his first start at YS in April, June, August or next year.
Everyone knows that he is not 100% ready for the majors…but now he is here. If they only wanted 1 start then they should of brought up Clippard or Ohlendorf. Everyone is complaining that he can only pitch 5 or 6 innings but honestly tell me who is better then him as the 5th starter, Igawa..Karstens… Rasner??!! Do you really think any of those are going to give them 6 or 7 innings or pitch better then he will even though he is not 100% ready?
I think he actually pitched better then I expected he would. I thought he would get knocked around alittle bit, and he did not at all. The 1st inning he was nervous and made bad pitches then pitched really good if it wasn’t for Cairo/Cano not covering 2nd base twice, and the umpire blowing that call at 1st.
I think they should keep him in the rotation until they have a better option then him. Let him pitch 5 or 6 games and see how he does. If he gets knocked around then obviously send him down. But let him prove that he is not ready. He is not going to learn anything by pitching in AAA and dominating. In a perfect world he probably would of stayed in the minors this whole season but they needed a pitcher and he is the best one that they have.
Panic Yankees fans! It would be a terrible mistake if the Yankees sign Ted Lilly. Why would you want a Ted Lilly if you had just barely get rid of Jaret Wright?
Look at Lilly’s stats so far this year…then compare them to Igawa’s…or almost anyone else the Yanks have tried to throw out there this year…then tell me how lousy he is compared to what we have.
Yes, I would rather have Lilly for 4 years than Igawa.
To the worst I would rather have a rebuild year then just keep on watching the Yankees keep losing year after year by using old and ineffective “star” players. Sadly, most of the fans here fail to realize the importance of developing your future; more importantly, they know nothing about the minor league.
By the way, for everyone in favor of keeping Hughes up…Do you remember what happened with Jose Rijo after the Yanks brought him up in ‘84? He went on to have a real sterling career with the Yanks, didn’t he? Peter does have a valid point…
the risk of injury from overthrowing!!!
I am not a pitching coach but look at his delivery and look at King Felix or Liriano’s. Hughes is much more compact and easy…
He can get hurt anywhere… He seems like he has a good head on him and as others have said when at a new level the first game he has usually had a hiccup.
I blame no one for the Yankee circumstance. Yes I disagree with some of Torre’s moves. No I do not blame Cashman. This year Cashman brought some sanity back to the team. He traded older garbage such as Wright and Johnson and tried and did get prospects(may or may not succeed). He did not sign any pitching FA’s because the prices were insane and to risky.
Igawa was a cheap move .Correct me if I am wrong but he gets $4 mill a yr for 4 or 5.
Right now nothing is going right… With just the Oakland debacle and Tampa grandslam the other day not occuring they are 10 and 10. They have a grand total of 1 start and 1 inning in the 2nd start from Moose(he got hurt then). Wang pitched 1 game left after 81 or so pitches because it was his first start, and the excuses go on and on.
IT is as simple as a injury issue. Yes there D is suspect, middle relief is hit or miss, but they have the big O and all the other teams have issues.
Give it some time…
‘Again, I’m missing the arm strength complaints. Every pitch he threw to Wells in the 5th was at 90 mph’
i’m watching a replay of the fifth inning. hughes just threw an 89 mph fastball. who can’t throw 90mph? igawa does . karstens does. rassner does. 90 is a mediocre fastball.
the kid is not there yet. how many innings do you think the yankees will let him throw this year? maybe 150. if he’s up now , how’s he going to pitch in september when we’ll really need him?
Yanks should trade P-Huge for Julian Tavarez and Kyle Snyder… even trade.
Whoa.
Good work-monday morning quarterbacking. The yanks are playing the hand they were dealt. I mean, Wwhat would you have done differently to avoid this situation?
Its still WAY early in the season to be crying about this. We have THE BEST LINEUP IN BASEBALL. Hands down. If we scored 7 runs tonight, the kid wins and no one is crying.
you guys sound like a bunch of spoiled kids.
No one mentioned that Hughes was going on 8 days rest.
He should at least get another start.
We’ll see what this team is all about tomorrow.
Maybe playing the Red Sox will wake them up.
Say whatever you want about it being early but tomorrow is a must win game
does anybody know how long hughes has to be in the bigs before its considered his rookie year.? what i mean by that is how many starts “for free” do the yanks have before it counts towards one of his six years before free agency?
For any misinformed people that want Lilly in New York, he wouldent have gotten paid 10 million with us, it would have been adjusted to 15 million because of the Lux. I would never ever ever pay 15 million for Lilly. We have Igawa on the cheap, and if he is good for a 5.5 ERA he is then the Japanese 2006 Randy Johnson as our 5th starter.
Problem is that Igawa isn’t “good for a 5.5 ERA.” In fact, he’s not even good enough to be in a rotation that can’t even be called a rotation right now. I reiterate…Give me Lilly instead of Igawa, period. Look at the stats, they don’t lie…
BTW.. Adam Lind is a good hitter…
Hughes threw 94 …
Does it matter Lopper? What are you afraid of? That the Yankees are going to get outbid by The Royals or something when he becomes a free agent?
Lilly is in the NL man… Stats are lying, they are inflated.
Ted Lilly? Seriously guys, get a grip. All of a sudden everyone wants TED LILLY!!!!!!!!!
Stop the Monday morning quarterbacking and relax. Cashman was a god three months ago, remember that?
Everything will be fine. Imagine this rotation:
Mussina
Wang
Pettite
Clemens
Hughes/Karstens
That’s pretty sweet. And it’s going to happen.
WeMissPaulie, I don’t want Ted Lilly man!
this one’s over . time to get ready for matsuzaka and the red sox. to say the yankees need that game tomorrow is an understatement. it’s going to be 4 1/2 or 6 1/2 games back. that’s a big difference.
this blog may break records tomorrow.
“does anybody know how long hughes has to be in the bigs before its considered his rookie year.”
I think it’s 50 innings pitched in Majors
91, 89, 91, 90 to Rios
90, 90, 90, 91 to Lind
91 to Wells on his last pitch. Again, Phil Hughes sits 90-94 and touches 96. So on his last pitch of the night, which equalled his season high, he was well within his normal range. The reason he’s so good, is that he’s throwing those fastballs with movement, and he locates them extraordinarily well. Not to mention the fact that I’m guessing early adrenaline robbed him of some leg strength late.
Igawa probably touches 92 on his best day, and doesn’t locate anything. Velocity isn’t everything.
all I know is I was impressed , Toronto is actually the best hitting lineup in the AL right now. The mistakes Hughes made any 20 year old probably does worse, he’s 20 pitching in Yankee Stadium and those 7 hits weren’t because of his stuff , Thomas reached out for one, Wells had a better AB, Hughes in a 2 – 1 count threw a fastball placed it good and had it line to shallow center, Justice on YES was saying he will learn to throw his breaking ball next time in that 2 – 1 count. Pete I think he’s the real deal but Torre has to go in order for him to succeed in NY.
Lilly’s ‘07 stats so far: 5 games started, 33 total innings pitched, 21 hits allowed, 9 runs allowed and 5 walks against 33Ks
Igawa’s ‘07 stats so far: 4 games started, 20.2 innings, 24 hits allowed, 19 runs allowed and 9 walks against 13Ks
What am I missing here? Explain to me how Lilly is crap and not worth the money and Igawa is a “steal” of a fifth starter?
hahahaha yeh we need to destroy Dice-K. I have a feeling hes gonna roll SNAKE EYES. In fact people in Yankee Stadium gotta put that on signs and go out there with the SNAKE EYES, it would look badass.
^^^^ hopefully uncle Joe doesn’t give this one away like he did at Fenway
Pete Im sorry to say this, but you run a good blog but you really dont understand Baseball. SO apparenly Hughes has a better chance to get injured in the Majors then AAA. That doesnt make no sense to me. Hughes got some bad calls againts him. He honestly only allowed 2 ER’s. He struck Frank Thomas out on a fastball that was called a ball and the ground out to Cairo that was called safe. Both of those led to runs. The only thing I seen is that Hughes needs to throw his change up a little more. The kid is Major League ready.
LILLY PITCHES IN THE NL! (EASIER)… AND HE IS TWICE AS EXPENSIVE AS DICE K… AND HE IS 31!!!!! THATS OLD TO BE HANDING OUT 4 YEAR 40 MILLION DOLLAR DEALS FOR A MEDIOCRE PITCHER. HE HAS HAD ALL SORTS OF SHOULDER INJURIES AFTER HIS 1999 SURGERY. HE IS A FLYBALL PITCHER AND OUR OUTFIELD AINT THAT FLYBALL HAPPY (OLD, SLOW).
I MEANT TWICE AS EXPENSIVE AS IGAWA.
ALSO,
yanks will get another day to rest the bullpen – there is no way they are playing tomorrow night. I hear nyc is going to get upwards of one inch of rain.
Look at it this way…Igawa is the most expensive batting practice pitcher in ML history. When you have a guy who relies on location for success, and he can’t locate a single one of his pitches, so he has to serve up a subpar fastball instead, that’s a guy who’s only qualified to pitch BP. So, that’s exactly what Igawa is. Still think he’s worth it?
You can say Lilly is benefitting from pitching in the NL, but he’s clearly earning his money right now…which is more than I can say for anyone on the Yanks’ staff besides Pettitte.
By the way, Wrigley is a horrible park for flyball pitchers, so, by your logic, he should have terrible stats pitching in that ballpark…which just isn’t the case.
I could come down on both sides of the issue here, about bringing Hughes up or keeping him down. It’s a tough call. And I would have to say that if a vote were counted, I’m against it. Yes, perhaps by all accounts, this is where he could really cut his teeth against ML hitters. But at the same time, he knows who he is, how high he’s ranked, and the psycholoical effects of a bad outing could have a big impact.
I am not saying that will happen, nor should it, considering it wasn’t a football score in the end.
I wonder if anyone here can recall the circumstances around Pettite’s debut in ‘95? Why was he called up? How did he do?
Might be helpful in analyzing Hughes’ situation.
I’m getting very angry with the sudden dislike of Kei Igawa. The guy wasn’t given enough of a chance, thanks to a clueless panic manager.
PS, Jeff Karstens is terrible and is only pitching on Saturday because of his spring and because he isn’t Japanese.
Pro Yakyuu Rules All
Also, Ted Lilly wasn’t the answer so stop writing about him because your in Chicago. He had his chance with the Yankees and was terrible otherwise he’d still be here.
Igawa was given chances and he will be given more chances. The fact is his scouting report claims he is a control artist – not only can he not locate his fastball but he gives up a ridiculous amount of walks. Frankly, i think we were duped. Ive been saying since we signed Igawa that Lilly would have been a better FA acquisition – Lilly already proved he could preform well against AL lineups. I love how many ppl in here pretend that Igawa was payed 20 million when in fact, the yanks shelled out 40 million for five yrs for his services. He better actually learn how to control his pitches as was promised or cash once again bought the worst pitcher in the FA market.
I am in complete agreement with ICE except for that last sentence. Why exactly would we have to get rid of posada and Mo? The truth is cash sacrificed this teams success in the hopes of making some future team (with sanchez in the faaar future) somewhat better. Cash didnt help our team now with an eye to the future. He hurt the present team to possibly build for the future. Im not saying its the worst thing in the world but the guy can at least own up to it.
By the way, How many complete busts can cash sign before we realize he is a complete moron? Any one with half a brain can sign a better bench and a stronger starting rotation with a 180 million dollar payroll (and your ace, starting second baseman, fourth outfielder and most of your relief corps making league minimum.)
As for whether Hughes stays or goes back down, I say lets see what he does in texas before we start forming opinions of whether or not he is ready for this level.
He shouldn’t be expected to save the rotation this year. He has the makings of an ace but this kind of pressure should really have been pushed off until 2008. Too bad we really have zero other options. I don’t want to mortgage the future for this year. He has a lot of arm strength to build up in order to go 200+ innings a year. Don’t want another Liriano on our hands.
“Say what you like, Yankee fans…. Talk down DiceK all you like. The facts remain that the Sox have the best record in all of baseball and are 5.5 games ahead of you after just one month. Even if you sweep us this weekend, you’re still far out of first… So tell me honestly, you wouldn’t gladly switch positions with Boston right now?”
Absolutely not, the Yankees are in for the long haul, I seem to remember a really slow start last year and then Boston not making the playoffs. I would have to double check my stats but I think Boston ended up in 3rd place in the division right?
If we sweep Boston this weekend, we’re 2.5 out of first. That’s not far. What’s FAR out of first is the 11 games back the Sox were at the end of last year.
hughes is here. probably for a while if he does better than what rasner wright and karstens have been doing it. so stop arguing and root for this guy. not only is he our future but hes the present. deal with it.
Best case scenario: Hughes gets it together, makes 25 more acceptable starts, and has to shut it down in September because of the excessive workload.
Worst case scenario: Hughes continues to struggle (and tonight’s start was NOT encouraging), has to be sent down, loses his confidence, and never reaches his “potential.”
Let’s get real. His stuff wasn’t any better than Randy Johnson’s. 90 MPH 4 seam fast balls after only 75 pitches. If this is all he has, he had better add TWO more pitches, or drastically improve his location (preferably in AAA).
I agree with you Pete, this is a tremendous load to ask a 20 year old to carry. Yankee Management needs a shake up.
Brian, you clearly dont know pitching if you are comparing Randy Johnson’s ‘06 fastballs to Hughes. They are two completely different entities. I agree its early for Hughes, I thought he would be up in June. In fact, Hughes starts to really crank in late May, and it usually takes him 2-3 starts to get used to a level he is promoted to.
As for his repertoire, he throws 90-94 consistently with movement and location, that’s plenty hard and plenty good. His location will get better as the weather gets warmer. His curveball is Major League ready and his 2-seam fastball will do an excellent job of keeping the ball on the ground. He has plenty in the tank to succeed at this level. When he’s able to throw his change with confidence, look out.
For all the naysayers, Hughes is here to stay, to Be the Best, you have to Beat the Best. Pitching against “AAAA” hitters will not turn Hughes into the Ace we need him to be. Pitching in the toughest offensive division in recent memory will though. Look how the addition of Justin Verlander last year stabilized the Tigers staff. The difference is Leyland lets his pitcher build arm strength through innings, that is my only concern with Hughes and Torre still managing this team.
Is this weekend series a bigger April series than most? Yes it is, they need to reclaim some momentum. However, I know the pitching staff will begin to take form as more guys come off the DL i.e. Moose and our bullpen guys find their roles (usually takes Torre about 6 weeks). We’ll be fine fellas and so will Philly Franchise.
Here’s something I don’t understand. You say the Yankees have no other options, what about Darrell Rasner. He pitched 4.1 innnings in his last start like Hughes and only gave up 1 run. This is ridiculous, the Yankees need to trade Rasner or release him because it is not fair to him. This team does not back him, why because he is not homegrown. Sorry that he got drafted by the Expos and then the Nationals released him. I still think Rasner has more promise or potential than even Karstens and ins oem respects he ahs proven it.
I think Cashman did get alittle desperate bringing Hughes up so soon but we didn’t have many options.
Peter,
Terrible analysis.
Thanks,
Jim
it will not be good if we get swept this weekend
One more thing…this could be the most ridiculous line of your analysis:
“Do you know how times he has faced a hitter with the bases loaded in the last two years? Twice.”
Golly Peter, could this have anything to do with Hughes being damn good? Or, should he walk the bases loaded so he can gain experience dealing with this type of situation?
Again, your analysis is horrid.
Thanks,
Jim
Hughes line wasn’t great. It also included a baserunner allowed on by an umpire’s terrible call, and an inherited baserunner allowed by Bruney, after Posada threw it into center field when Cano didn’t cover the bag. By all rights, he could have gone five, surrender 5 hits and 2 runs.
What I saw from Hughes last night made me almost wet my pants. Tremendous fastball movement. The best curveball I think I’ve ever seen any Yankee throw, a 12-6 hammer at 70 mph. In the minors, he didn’t just have good control and oommand, he had elite control and command. Ridiculous K/BB numbers, and a microscopic home run rate. He has nothing left to learn from the AAAA hitters and old prospects languishing in AAA. He had his jitters, but I expect more against a struggling Rangers team next time. I’ll be benching Texeira, that’s for sure. He’s the future, and by the end of the year, he might well be the best pitcher on the staff. And he’s 20 years old. Think about that, Pete. He’s built like a horse, there’s nothing wrong with him. No “buts” with Hughes. 6-5, 220, two plus, sometimes plus plus pitches, a developing change, elite command, great makeup. That is the formula for an ace in the major leagues.
Would you rather be throwing Igawa or Karstens out there? Or we could just try the Rasner thing again, it’s not like he was getting lit up out there. Torre just does’t like him.
its the wrong move. They have coddled this kid his entire career, and now we expect him to be savior. This wasn’t the Yankees original plan so some baseball minds must have known he wasn’t going to be ready yet. He hasn’t thrown over 90 pitches in any game this year, so again he will be on a count every time out. Last night his velocity started out at 93-94 and in the 4th he was throwing 90. Your not going to get away with 90 mph fastball to big league hitters so he better paint. He has never thrown the amount of innings he could potentially throw this year. So we get to September and his arm is tired, or sore. Yeah he isn’t going to get any better training than on the job training, so then we chalk this year up to rebuilding right?
Rodger:
He is not expected to be the savior, he’s expected to be the #4 starter. Remember by the end of next he week will have 3 strong starters pitching ahead of him in Wang, Moose, and Pettitte.
Oh and the 90mph 4-seamer was blown by Adam Lind…its not all about velocity, the two best attributes of a fastball are movement and location. Just ask Kyle Farnsworth.
Sometimes its amazing how differently people can view the same situation… Both sides of the ‘is he ready’ argument have valid points.
I stand on the side of ‘he is ready’. Yes, he’s young and they need to be careful with him (pitch counts are a good idea), but clearly he has the stuff to get major league hitters out on a regular basis. There’s no debating that. Life can be tough and human beings tend to only learn things ‘the hard way’, with adversity and some failure. I don’t see the value of blowing away the competition at Scranton and hanging out with other 20 year olds at the local Chili’s after the game. What is he really going to learn? How is he going to somehow be more qualified by June/July? Since he has the stuff to get hitters out, the mechanics to hopefully keep his arm healthy, and a reportedly stellar mental makeup, I would rather he learn on the job while being surrounded by the likes of Guidry, Mussina, Pettite and Rivera to teach the kid how to be a pro, how to deal with a tough loss, etc.
He was not lights out, but everyone should have been able to see that his stuff is electric and the potential is huge. He painted a few corners, blew some fastballs by major league hitters, buckled some knees with the curve, and at least to me, did not look rattled. Certainly there were jitters (understandably so), but he was not intimidated.
Let him pitch. He’ll benefit in the long run, and frankly, we need him on the staff. Not to ’save’ the team, but to go out and pitch competitively and give the offense a chance. There’s absolutely no reason to think he’s less capable of that than any other pitcher within the organization.
As an intermittent reader of this site, I’ve refrained from commenting in the past because I just didn’t see the point – even when Abraham was particularly biased in his Rodriguez commentary – but this “analysis� is so reactionary as to be irresponsible, and exactly why thoughtful fans rely less and less on the traditional Fourth Estate.
As has been well articulated by many above: How can one argue that Hughes is not one of the 5 best starters in the Yankees system today? Minor league performance is predictive, irrespective of age. In fact, there’s increasing evidence that pitchers peak much earlier than hitters. If the goal is winning today, having Hughes up is a no-brainer. If the goal is preserving his arm – once again I think it’s a no-brainer: where do you think he’ll be getting more careful supervision and quality medical attention – the Bronx or the minors? If a pitcher only has so many innings in their shoulder, you want to get as many of the value-added ones in the majors as possible (Now if the worry is Torre’s Lasorda-esque pitcher-abuse behavior – well, I’d agree – but it’s Cashman’s job to keep that under control).
Discriminating against the guy because of his age is just foolish, and the product of a less objective era. While he seemed to tire in the 5th, I saw nothing in Hughes’ performance that would indicate he should spend another minute in the minor leagues – and a lot that would indicate he could be the best pitcher on the Yankees in 2008. At the latest.
WOW this guy is a joke… lol Pete Abraham you should look over what you write.
Pete, I usually agree with you, but you are dead wrong on this one. Hughes always takes a few starts to adjust to a new level(look at last year and AAA this year). The guy would have been in the majors last season on most teams, so I don’t really buy this nonsense that he isn’t ready. Give him a few more starts and then we’ll see how ready he is. I defineatley expect domination out of Hughes after he gets a few starts under his belt.
nobody is doubting his ability, everyone knows he has electric stuff, it is more of if this is the right move. I think they are trying to strike lightening in a bottle again like they did with cano.
lightning sorry
The encouraging and discouraging thing about Hughes is that he has started slow with every promotion. At AA last year he got knocked around for his first 3-4 starts, then blew the league to pieces. At AAA he got wacked twice before throwing a gem. This is discouraging because it means he’s not an immediate fit. It is encouraging because it means he can adjust. But the question becomes whether he can adjust quickly on the fly in a pressure situation. If not, he becomes the next Ed Yarnall or Randy Keisler or (even worse) Dewon Brazelton.