Heres a great chance for the beat writers *cough* to question Torre on his quick pull of Wang. He said before the game that Wang could give him 95 pitches, and the last inning wasnt overly stressful. Why must we see Proctor AGAIN?????
There is no longer a defense for Torre. Wang only had 84 pitches and could have gone more. The next time someone complains the starters aren’t giving innings, please explain away this bonehead decision!
Pete: If you don’t confront Torre with those stats, you’re not doing your job!
Pete, since your next post is likely to be a sarcastic post about how the readers are reactionary and not as smart as the holy manager, can you at least start calling Proctor “The Run Fairy”. That’s a nickname that’s been deeply missed since Horredia left town
I’ve never wanted to see Torre fired, but for the first time I’m really questioning him. Abreau bunting; pulling Wang early, in my mind, and replacing him with Proctor who is God Awful against the Red Sox. It’s just puzzling to see his choices lately.
That was a huge insurance run, which a stiff breeze would’ve recorded on Proctor’s record as yet another home run he’s given up.
Not only will Peter not ask him about it, I’m sure he’ll be here later defending it. He basically attacked us not that long ago when we questioned why Torre always took his pitchers out too early. I can’t wait to hear the latest justification. There’s a reason Torre’s nickname is “Clueless.”
It’s amazing how you guys can hear the conversations in the dugout between innings. A few innings ago, Wang was visited by the trainer and they looked at his hand. I’m guessing he had blisters beecause he has a history of that. Maybe they popped and he wasn’t able to keep throwing.
Also, his limit was 90-95 pitches. He was at 84. That’s one hitter, maybe two. All relievers would prefer to start an inning. So Torre pulled him 6 pitches short of his limit.
I have problems with bringing Proctor in. But Wang has beeen hit hard today and was making his second start since coming off the DL.
Plus, there’s a day off tomorrow and they didn’t use the bullpen much yesterday.
Pete: Then make sure ask Joe about Wang’s “blister”. The idea that Wang can’t go past 84 is pure and simply ridiculous. What’s more, even if Wang did ask out, why bring in Proctor, who not only is awful against Boston, but has now pitched in 15 GAMES!! 15!!
As for he didn’t use the pen that much…they had to get 3 full innings…what do you consider not that much??
It’s clear that you want to stay on Torre’s good side…otherwise, you’d confront him with the numbers you posted here. If you are unwilling to bring them to Joe, why even bother posting them?
Not because of what he has done, but what will he do in the future – nothing changes. He is a robot manager and all is well when the “players” are doing their job. When they are not, changes are necessary. Do something different, not the same thing hoping for different results.
If Wang is hurt, you don’t bring in Proctor. In fact, with the way they baby pitchers, if he was hurt, he wouldn’t have seen the 6th inning. Proctor is awful against the Red Sox, as your numbers indicate. What in the world is he thinking?
At some point, you have to stop babying the starters. It sure as hell hasn’t worked. They are either always hurt or always ineffective. He’s killed the bullpen in a month. He has no idea what he is doing.
We are now reduced to watching the #3 hitter in the order trying to bunt guys over everyday.
Is this team really good enough play “one run baseball”? No, it isn’t.
Yet, it never changes. Their either love the strategy or they don’t want to tell a player not to do something.
They are in last place. Its not Cashman, its not the injuries (Wang is back and they still aren’t winning. There goes that theory). Its the guy on the bench who has no idea what he is doing and its on for all display every since game.
If all the ducks are in a row, Joe Torre is a great manager. If they are not, and they aren’t with this team, he costs you 2, maybe 3 games a week with absolutely nonsensical moves.
Can’t defend this one my friend. He is killing this team right now.
If George decides to can him, he is right to do so.
Maybe this question has been asked of Torre, but is Abreu bunting (or attempting to) on his own the last week or is it being called from the dugout.
Maybe shifting the batting order around wouldn’t be the worst idea.
Ok. After one win Torre must think things are ok. Wang out after 84 pitches to bring that worthless bullpen that looks more tired than my grandmother. What is going through Torre’s mind? Now he makes another change.
Face it. Torre is just going to continue to burn up the bull pen. Injuries forced his hand early, job security and poor decision making will make it continue.
I just don’t understand. Wang, Hughes, Pettitte, are always on a pitch count. What part of BLOWN SAVE is this staff not getting?
Well, I don’t say this very often, but the way this team is playing, the game just ended.
What was the Yankees’ record when Womack was banished to the bench and Cano brought up?
Peter isn’t some sort of latter-day Torquemada. He’s a reporter. Reporters ask questions, they don’t conduct witch hunts. That’s for Stein and his organization to do.
You can’t honestly believe that the Yanks don’t know exactly what Proctor’s numbers are in every situation, including against the Red Sox. Here’s a trivia question: which current Yankees reliever has the best record against the Sox as a team this year?
Bullpen management has never been Torre’s strength. Heck, he’s probably one of the worst in the game when it comes to using his pen. But in this day and age, I have to wonder, does he not KNOW the stats, or does he not CARE?
It’s clear this team has no fight in it. And that is the manager’s fault. If the 7-3 score stands up, it’s time for Joe to go. At a certain point, it’s not just about “the players needing to play,” it’s about what the manager is (or is not) doing to get them to play.
pb…I would hope so too…but most in the NY media have made it clear…Joe is off limits…not only does he control the clubhouse, but there are lots of book deals to be made once he retires. It doesn’t pay to get on Joe’s bad side. Peter can protest all he wants, but until I hear him ask a tough question or bring to light Torre’s gaffe’s in a column, I can’t take him seriously.
John: Right, I’m going to “take on” the manager on April 29. Here is how it works: I ask him question, he gives an answer. If I want further info, I ask a follow-up. If the answer isn’t what you want it to be, should I throw a chair at him then?
I cover baseball. I’m not interrogating criminals.
When Torre has a pitching staff to manage then I will cast judgement. The guy has dealt with everyone from Aaron Small and Shawn Chacon to Chase Wright and Sean Henn in the past couple years. Meanwhile Pavano can’t find it in him to make 3 consecutive starts and the guys we bring in to replace him are getting their legs sawed off by ball hit by 175 lb Lugo. Give him a break already. 90+ wins for this many seasons isn’t easy no matter how much money the back office spends.
Half the papers in the market called for Joe to be fired last season including mine. Book deals? Joe has already written something like 5 books. If he does another one, it’ll be with a professional ghost writer or somebody national, not one of the beat writers. He’s been here 12 years and not written one book with a beat writer.
And if you look on this blog a few minutes ago, I questioned bringing in Scott Proctor.
Also, Joe controls the clubhouse? Well, yes, he is the manager of the team. Who would you propose control the clubhouse?
Case of champagne if the Yankees come back. That won’t happen because, I agree, there is no fight in this team. Yesterday now looks like it was an aberration. Listening to Sterling/Waldman and they keep harping on pitching not being there. No Kidding!!!!!
But hey, on the bright side we signed a great 1st baseman in Minky, picked up a bunch of prospects, have no back up for Posada, still have the pitcher all teams want Pavano, and trimmed the payroll to be “more in line” with other teams. Good off-season move.
Peter, ask this question if you get the chance. What justification was there to sign Minky and NOT get any quality pitching?
I don’t think we’re suggesting that you (or any members of the media) act pugnaciously or confrontationally towards Torre. Obviously, you have a job to do and getting on bad terms with an important subject would not help. But I do think that the media has a responsibility which entails asking questions about unclear decisions, various thought processes, trends, etc. Just because it’s early in the season doesn’t exempt the media from this responsibility. In what other line of work would an employee (Torre) receive this sort of immunity?
If he was a rookie manager, I’d understand. But he’s not. He’s Joe Torre and he’s widely heralded as one of the best managers in the game. He’s also incredibly experienced, which makes his decisions all the more baffling. In short, while it may be early in the season, it is quite a bit into Torre’s managerial career. The media needs to ask him tougher questions, bottom line.
Pete: I’ll remember that the next time Arod sunbathes in Central Park. When the prey is easy, the “tough” NY media has no problem going for blood. But when the target is a powerful figure, all of sudden the “I’m just a reporter” defense crops up. You can’t have it both ways.
Folks, I think you have to get off Pete’s back regarding Torre. From what I understand, if reporters push Joe too hard, they get cut off. If Pete gets cut off, it’s not good for his career, The Journal News, or those of us who appreciate his work. Yes, politics suck, but that’s life.
Just what do you expect Joe to say when the reporters start to rip him? Torre is smart enough not to put his foot in his mouth regarding the moves he makes. The fact that he has lasted this long are proof of that.
It’s not Pete’s job to bash the manager because we’re all pissed off at his moves or lack of moves. The people who will make decisions about Torre’s future are the people he works for, and I’m pretty sure they get the message.
We’ll have to be patient with this team and see if they can pull out of this funk. Let’s hope that in October we can remember this period will be defined as “character building”.
Pete, I have a very important question for you. Are you a Yankees fan? Not that you bad mouth them or the fact that you love the Pat’s, but just the way you sometimes discuss Yankee players or moves. You either love the Yankees or hate them and I seem to find you in the middle!
Also, besides the terrible game play lately this season. I am very disappointed in the fans. The last 2 years we had rough aprils, its just our thing. Now everyone is in panic mode and wanting to fire Cashman, Torre, Gator…etc. Come on guys. We need to stand behind or team and not hit the panic button so early. Our pitching has been bad, our bullpen is tired, and its effecting our bats! We need Abreu to set up and Cano is getting on my nerves too. We will be ok, be just need some positive playing and win some games!
Seriously, you guys are ridiculous. Why are you jumping down Pete’s back? Do you even realize what he gives us? You guys are so ungrateful. I’m disgusted right now. If you want to ask Joe some questions get off your couch and go get a job at a paper in New York. Oh you can’t? Then suck it up. Let Pete do his job. Losing is one thing, reading abuse of Pete is another. Clearly it’s Pete’s fault for asking Joe Torre the wrong questions after the game.
Here is the problem…..There is no thought of next week with Torre. None.
Since he isn’t capable to look ahead, allow me to do so…..
Here is how next week shapes up. Hughes on Tuesday. He is a 5 inning (if that) pitcher because they have never extended him. Moose pitching on Thursday for the first time in a month. Another 5, 6 innings tops.
Does Joe have any idea that he will need guys next week? Why burn everybody out today? AGAIN.
Look, at some point, you can’t overlook the obvious. He is the WRONG GUY for this job right now.
If they have to rebuild this year, I am honestly ok with that.
The bench is horrible, its an old team, and they aren’t going anywhere anyway.
But, there are some young arms here that have talent.
I don’t want Joe Torre killing them and that’s EXACTLY what he is doing.
If he can’t manage a pitching staff and continues to have his #3 hitter bunt everyday, why is he still employed? He has no value to this franchise anymore. ZERO.
Its baseball malpractice what he is doing to the guys in the bullpen.
Its time. He’s got to go. All this, “its early” stuff is a bunch of crap.
Its not about this season. Its about the future.
He kills a couple of more arms with this incompetency, his Yankee legacy is going to be stained big time.
Off day tomorrow. Reach a deal on his contract and either let him resign with dignity, and have a day for him this summer. Or, if he won’t go, fire him.
You can’t have this man manage this team for another month. He is now to the point where he is a danger to these pitchers.
colorado: there was minimal quality pitching on the market. the pitcher the yankees need to win the world series would be a lights out type (santana/peavy/beckett), NOT a lilly/zito type… the only one we screwed up by not pursuing was dice-k
tomorrow’s back pages are going to be after torre’s head again if they lose today. i agree there is such a thing as too much patience. i was hoping he’d get mad and kick things into gear.
on a side note concerning a change being made, i’ve never been comfortable with the bowa and kerrigan addition to the yankees. kerrigan was cashman’s hire. i expect him to be right in the middle of any changes made. if his past record in other places is any indication even having him on the team in any capacity is a mistake.
Good point, John. If I remember correctly, Peter has said that A-Rod gets a lot of criticism because he has made himself an easy target in the past. With that in mind, I’m not sure how Torre isn’t an easy target anymore. A-Rod did nothing but work his hardest and try his best, and he got roasted and questioned to no end. I’m sure Torre thinks he’s doing his best, but he pretty clearly has some serious shortcomings. I don’t understand why he isn’t faced with any relevant questions.
First of all, you can’t have it both ways. If Torre brought in some scrub when they were down by a few, then gave up more runs, you’d all be complaining that we have such a good offense, how could you bring in a bad pitcher who’s gonna give up more runs? The Yankees do have a good offense that can come back. They are rarely out of the game, so it’s Torre’s job to keep it close every day. It’s up to the players to perform.
Second point, if you all hate Pete and his writing so much, why are you here at all? Go to firejoetorre.com or something and bitch about every single thing the Yanks do. Nobody’s forcing you to read Pete’s work, so go away.
Bring back chair throwing! No seriously, Torre with just the one win yesterday shold be safe for another week or so unless they never win again. I read Steinbrenner would want my all time favorite Donnie Management as the next manager. I can’t see how that would improve much, but guess we’ll see. I for one, feel bad if we lose this game, but after the great game yesterday, we all have some reasons to feel a bit better, starting with the reemergence on Mo.
FYI, my turn to defend Peter, stop bashing him, many of you think the beat writers run the team. Peter should not under any circumstances endanger his relationships and his career to verbally attack the manager of the NY Yankees. Go Jeter!
Thanks for proving my point Pete…none of the papers called for Joe to be fired…they reported on what was a real possibility. If you are willing to question the Proctor decision on this blog, then why not bring those same facts straight to you?
I’m sorry, but it’s VERY clear that the NY media treats Joe with caution. When you wield as much power as Joe, reporters are afraid to challenge him. You can protest all you want, but the reality is right there.
Uuuh, Joe Torre has brought this team to the playoffs ten straight years, six world series and won four. You guys want to replace him, go ahead. Then you will see how much Torre has meant to the Yankees.
Bottom line, the thought that this is a long season and we will have to see how the season plays out is ridiculous. This team is what it is. A barely above .500 team that will finish 3rd in their division. Hate that Peter Gammons could be right.
It is not the pitching that is the big issue, but this team has not life. I realize this is their job and they may not care as much as we do – I wouldn’t either if I had 10-15 million a year guaranteed – but at least give us some entertainment value. This is worse than seeing a Tom Cruise movie.
SJ44…I don’t care whether Pete cheers for the team or not. I just want ONE reporter to ask Torre tough, legitimate questions. I’d really love to know what he is thinking…maybe he has a reason I never thought of? Unfortunately, no one asks the right questions. If that is a reporters job, then what exactly are they there to do? Write game stories?
Colorado Yank. Clearly, high salaries = poor performance and no fight. Tell that to Jeter, A-Rod, and Giambi. They’re clearly quite lazy and uninterested in winning a ball game what with all that guaranteed money and all.
Alright if Pete ask Joe a question do you really think its going to add accountability to his decision or make him rethink how he uses pitchers??? Pete is a great writer and this blog is great but you guys might be thinking he has a little more power than he does (or the media as a whole). Just because Pete or someone else ask him a question, nothing is going to change. He’s still going to beat on Proctors arm everyday and avoid using Farns (which is a good thing).
What could any other manager do with this team. Its not the managers fault that the pitching staff has either been injured or stunk it up! He HAS to use the bullpen b/c the starters are only going 5 innings. Proctor sucks against the Sox but so do half of our pitchers so who do you want him to put in. Get real about Colter Bean, he has pitched only a few times in situations that weren’t that pressured packed and he is not as good as Proctor. Get off Joe’s back, he can’t do anything other than what he is doing with this team and guys like Pinella would be making the same moves. He’s not going to throw Wang’s arm out in April to keep the media off his back which shows a lot about what kind of guy he is.
Um, picking those three only makes for an example. Nothing against those three but how many of them or the rest of the high paid baseball players(Yankees or otherwise) have fight in them like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Rose – wait, expect for Jordan, none were highly over paid… So Cumberberg, you are right. My bad.
What I don’t understand is how people are not screaming for Cashman to get fired. Look at the results so far of his Johnson, and Sheffield deals. The Humberto Sanchez situation is ridiculous. He has made terrible decisions: Farnsworth, Pavano, Steve Karsay, and the list just goes on and on. Check out Bill Madden’s article in today’s Daily News, hes 100% right. If Torre goes, Cashman better be following him.
OK…I get it…Joe doesn’t make mistakes. It’s the bullpens fault that Wang came out after 84 pitches and they are all on pace to set appearance records.
Also…Pete is not supposed to ask hard questions…he is only a “reporter” who never dables in opinion (when it comes to Torre). He also doesn’t have to defend himself…everyone who criticizes him is a crank.
The weakness of both positions pretty much belies the obvious: Joe is not doing his job as a manager; Pete and the NY media are not doing the job as reporters.
I would 100% agree that this team is Cash$’s fault not Torre. What else can Torre do except throw Wang longer, who reportedly was injured. Its not Torre’s fault that this team has no pitching. The team is on paced to score a lot of runs so his offensive decisions should not be questioned and he is doing what he can with the pitching.
“Stormy: I wish you were the manager. Iâ€™d get to ask you why you were such a bitter crank. Your act is getting tedious, by the way.”
I’m not a bitter crank. I’m just objective about the team — unlike you. And you don’t like me because I disagree with you. Before I questioned your opinions, you never once referred to me personally. Since I have questioned you, you constantly single me out. You simply cannot take a difference of opinion. But if you’re going to have this blog, then you have to expect people to have different thoughts and opinions. Not everyone is a kiss-ass on here, and nor should they be. Express an opinion on a subject and be prepared to deal with a differing view. Most of us — at least in my neck of the woods — came to realize this around the first grade.
This game illustrates why injuries are so distressing. You don’t just lose the guy for the 3-6 weeks it takes to heal, but that player has to get back into baseball: timing, conditioning, all that stuff. It takes a hit when you are on the DL.
Damon is playing hurt, and is clearly not as effective as he could be, offensively and defensively. Wang may have a blister issue today. If that’s the case, nothing you can do but pull him and hope the rest of the team comes around. Matsui hasn’t really hit well since coming back either, but he seems to be getting a free pass.
Still, that doesn’t excuse Abreu, Cano, or Minky (today’s home run doesn’t count in tomorrow’s box score.)
We seem to do this every year recently: start off awful, and battle back, only to lose in the playoffs because our bullpen is spent and our starters are banged up. It took 2 miracles (Chacon and Small) in 2005, a year beginning to resemble this one. Is Hughes an ace? Can he turn us around? I really don’t see how when he’ll be on such a strict pitch count, any good he does has a great chance of being neagated by our bullpen. He’s got the makings of a Scott Kazmir year in New York: 5-6 great innings, and the bullpen loses it.
The game is now over, and the thing most evident to me is that the Yankees do not string hits together. We get walks and bloops and blasts, but we don’t get the string of hits that puts the defense on it’s heels.
I’m going to assume Wang had blisters, and that’s why he was pulled. It’s much more logical than Torre thinking he was done, even if the hitters up next had good numbers against him. The only call I could question, and I don’t know if it was his call, is Abreu attempting to bunt when he did. If that’s Abreu’s call, Torre needs to talk to him about it. If it was Torre’s call, it’s inexcusable.
1 out of 3 looks a lot better than 0 out of 3, and 6.5 games back is, this early, really not that bad. We’ve made up more than that before. But we also got a good look at Boston these 2 series, and they seem to have the winning formula: Effective Starters, and a Lights Out bullpen. OBP and a couple of mashers, and you’ll win games.
The Yankees, on the other hand, have a rotation that almost seems designed to go to the pen in the 5th to 6th inning. I don’t expect Moose to give us innings anymore. Igawa was great yesterday, but is enough of a wild pitcher to eat his count up in 5 innings.
It is still early, but as a Yankee fan, you just kind of get tired of the slow starts, and the race to the finish.
SJ44…I can’t contact Cashman…if another beat writer actually read his blog comments, I’d post my plea there instead. Had I known Pete fancied himself as “just a reporter”, I would have never brought it up. Some much for the “tough” NY media.
There is a reason why Colter Bean is IN AAA and has been designated for assignment and NOT picked up by any of the 30 clubs. He is the 12th man on that 12 man staff.
You can’t have it both ways people. When the Yankees lose- Torre is a bum. When they win- it is because of his weapons. If he has so many ‘weapons’- then why is Abreu, Cano & Damon hitting so poorly?
Bottom line- the Yanks could only muster 3 runs against Julian Tavarez. That is why they lost. Not Torre’s fault.
As far as all the appearances by the bullpen- what should Joe do when his starters go 5 innings and throw 100 pitches. Blow their arms out and make them throw 125?
I think Wang was pulled b/c of a blister today- I could be wrong.
In my opinion- the only game I really blame Torre for is last Friday night. All the other ‘second guesses” are exactly that.
First my points
-all the fire Cashman talk is bologna, ie. It’s not like he signed bad players.
-the pitching staff would look better with wang and mussina healthy, it’s not like anyone thought they would all get injured at the same times.
-You cannot blame Torre for the injured pitching
Now my questions
-why was wang pulled after 84 pitches if his limit is due to his injury I understand the count but don’t pull him out 10 pitches prior to his count. (he can have 10 pitch innings fairly easily), the only reason this pull was acceptable was if indeed he had blisters
-why bring in Proctor like everyone said he’s been overused and owned by the sox. personally I would have gone with henn for two innings, he hasn’t been used as much and used to be a starter.
-why if peter says its good to have pitchers go an entire inning did they pull henn in favor bruney with one out and no one on, he came in to face ortiz, he didn’t get him out, either leave him in to finish the inning, or take him out so he doesn’t face ramirez, if he’s in there for a matchup then he should only face one batter, if he isn’t, then let him go the entire inning instead of making another pitcher warm up and come in
on a side note mientkewicz is a great defender, and he’s the 9 hitter, if this lineup can’t score runs without mientkewicz’s bat they’re screwed anyway. if you want to point to a lineup issue, it shouldn’t be minky’s bad bat, it should be abreu’s. how much does it hurt A-Rod’s chances to drive in runs if he’s got a guaranteed out in front of him (not that i don’t have confidence in abreu, but torre obviously doesn’t, by bunting him you’re pretty much guaranteeing he’s an out) if you really want to fix the lineup, give abreu a break, move him down in the order and move everyone up, there are enough good bats that taking abreu’s out until he gets hot won’t have any more negative effects than having his cold bat in the three hole
how many times this year has torre gone to burnt out proctor only to bring bruney in for damage control innings when he shouldve gone to bruney in the first place..and i know its been said a million times but for the love of god can we dust manny or ortiz once i mean its not a yanks vs sox game unless these guys hit multiple home runs and how did cashman let okajima go to the sox this guy was begging to be a yankee in the offseason… waiter ill have the flame broiled cashman and a side of joe torres head on a plate please
Hi, I’m a Red Sox fan who was turned on to this blog by my best friend from college, Manny, a Yankees fan. I hate to come out swinging, but the level of discussion on these comments is pretty pathetic. It abounds in generality and lacks in clear, logical argument. People don’t base their asserions on arguments about scouting, statistics OR concrete historical precedent, just constant citations of things someone did wrong or right in the recent –> very recent past. It’s not interesting, except as an exploration of the spoutings of every mouthbreathing Yankees homer with a 386. You guys should go read Replacement Level, at least some of them know how to be civil and make more than 2 points between ‘em.