Strong words from the captain
-
- April
- 29
“It’s not fair. In no way is he responsible for us performing. He’s not hitting for us and he’s not pitching for us. He puts the best players out there on the field, gives us an opportunity to win. We’re just not doing the job. That’s unfair and it should stop.” – Derek Jeter on the possibility of Joe Torre losing his job.
Jason Giambi: “Most of us came here to play for Joe Torre. … Joe can’t control injuries or getting the starting pitcher to go more than five (innings). What does any manager have to do with that?”
Brian Cashman: “As far as I’m concerned, I take full responsibility for this start because that’s my job. This is the team that I put together.”
I spoke with George Steinbrenner’s spokesman an hour ago. No word from the owner today but he could have something to say tomorrow.
Had I to guess, I would say Torre survives for now with Steinbrenner issuing some manner of statement tomorrow. But it would not shock me if he were fired. Steinbrenner, assuming he is lucid, could see this as his last shot to impact the team.
But firing Torre makes no sense. There’s 86 percent of the season left and they haven’t had the rotation together for a full turn yet. Beyond that, is Don Mattingly with 23 games of experience as the bench coach the answer?
It will not be Joe Girardi. Mattingly didn’t come out of retirement to be an assistant and flip soft-toss to multi-millionaires for three years without knowing there would be a payoff at some point for him.
This entry was posted
on Sunday, April 29th, 2007 at 7:51 pm by Peter Abraham.
You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed.
Share and Enjoy: 
| 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
I can’t see them playing under anyone but Joe Torre, and if he gets fired I will be very upset, and so will the players as you see here.
Sorry guys, I blame this one on me. I’ve been in Japan too long.
Flight is tomorrow at noon, get to NY-JFK at 3:30PM.
I will right the ship then.
FIRE HIM.
Pete
Good points all around. In the old days, Stein would have acted by now, and made a dumb move.
Any Clemens news?
Listen, if you are going to blame him for the losses then logically you HAVE to give him credit for the wins. No question, Joe Torre is a winner and has had tremendous success during his first 11 years in the Bronx. Calling for his head does nothing. Let him at least finish off this year. He’s earned that right.
Steinbrenner normally grabs the back of all the newspapers before he does anything. He will make a statement that says “Get better or ELSE”. The team will then win 10 of the next 13 and all will be fine in Yankeeland.
For all those jamming the panic button maybe these words from Jeter, the CAPTAIN of the team you supposedly love, will allow you to remove the gun from your mouth from the time being. That is, unless you plan on turning on Jeter while dismissing his accolades and importance the way you have with “Clueless” Joe Torre. Give it a rest and get a life. It’s fans like you who give real Yankee fans a bad name.
All you have to do is read what the captain and Jason said to gauage what the reaction would be in the clubhouse. It wouldn’t be a good thing to do. Like Jason, Derek and other players have said, he doesn’t play, or control the injuries. Yeah he makes some bone head moves, but I don’t believe firing Joe would have anything but a negative effect on this team.
And if George were to issue some sort of directive before Phil pitches, how fair would that be. This kid already has enough on his plate trying to adapt to ML hitting. To maybe put it on his head that the manager may get fired would just be unfair.
Any chance Jeter will call George and ask him not to make a statement or do anything rash?
“Listen, if you are going to blame him for the losses then logically you HAVE to give him credit for the wins.”
Very true, but thats never been how it works here – since the first moment he was called “Clueless Joe”. He gets all the blame for the losses, but when they win its despite him because he is so incapable.
Illogical.
I’m with you Angel, completely illogical.
Hey ya’ll, Conan the Barbarian is on AMC. Let’s all just watch that and get this crap off our minds.
I’m on the fence on the fire Torre agenda. However everyone seems to only bring up Mattingly and Girardi as replacements. Personally I think if Joe goes Bowa will be name manager. He’s a firey guy so that will appease George, he’s had managerial experience in the past, He’s the opposity of Joe in the way he deals with clubhouse so maybe it will shake things up, and if it doesnt work out he has no ties to the organization that will make it awkward to get rid of him and replace him with Donnie. This is a risky manuever considering that it may be extremly counterproductive and send the team into a downward spiral considering the core of the team in Jeter, Mo, Andy, and Jason are very much Pro-Torre
what if the Yankees go 6-1 in there next 7 games and the Red Sox go 1-6? Whole Different story then right?
Yeah, in the “old days” of the mid-1980s, George would have fired the manager and brought back Billy Martin for the 4th or 5th or 6th time. How successful was all that?
It is all up to the players. In any sport. That’s why Billy Bean goes for the lowest paid manager possible, and doesn’t mind limited experience. Because he realizes that most of the in-game decisions are relatively straightforward, and it really depends on players being put into position to succeed, of making use of their particular abilities, and then executing. If your starting pitchers are on the DL, or can’t go past the 5th inning, or the heart of your batting order goes hitless with men on base, it doesn’t matter if your manager is Casey Stengel, Miller Huggins, or Joe Dirt.
Doesn’t matter who you blame for losses or give credit to for wins. What gives our yankees the best chance to get straighted out and back to winning.
Some think Torre is answer, some say he is the problem. I think he either needs to be replaced tomorrow morning (before the road trip) or be given a vote of confidence. Should Torre stay or should he go question needs to be addressed and made to go away.
I think Torre should be fired. Supposedly he was close to losing his job after the Yanks lost so badly in the playoffs last year. It seemed to me that Torre did not manage well in those playoffs.
If we had somehow known then how badly this season would begin, I think he would have been fired at that time. Better late than never.
Jeter is speaking up for Torre, where was this last year for Arod???? Hello? I’m just saying would have been nice by the captain.
Good post Pete – Torre stays I hope – if he had Mike Stanton and Jeff Nelson in their prime the record would be much different. The pen wil lrecover as the starters get healthy and pitch more – if not this is a transition year to a new team but it is still too early.
I’m not sure if this is the right time, but I know for a fact that he should have been fired after the disgraceful managing in the 2004 season/postseason, and should have been fired after each of the last few seasons too.
Pretty sure Yanks were 9-19 in 2005 and came back to win the division. I’m not worried yet. Keep Torre, this team needs him. One condition though. Next time Abreu tries to bunt(which he can’t), Torre has to bitch slap him and then send him to the eigth hole. Matsui or Pasada to 3 hole.
The one criticism of Torre that is completely legitimate is his bullpen usage. Starters should be allowed to try to work out of their own jams in the later innings (6th and 7th specifically). He seems way to quick to pull the trigger on a starter after they give up a hit in the 5th or 6th, and he never has a plan to get to the 9th with anything less than 3 guys.
Pete-
Sorry for Vulger language, feel free to delete. My bad.
Yankees Luv—You are 100% spot on. Jeter wants to keep Uncle Joe in there for life. Who knows, some other manager might move him off SS eventually.
Sorry, I don’t think Torre is to blame for the past week. I don’t care who is managing this team, if your starting staff can’t give you more than four and a third, your not going to win many ball games. However, I do think that since Zim has left, Torre’s in game managing skills have diminished.
Not dimished; exposed
Pete:
In your opinion, how is George S. doing mentally these days? Is he usually lucid, or does it come and go?
By the way, Pete, on a post a little while ago I said it didn’t seem like it was Wang’s nail that caused him to come out, not because I was belittling the injury, but because he pitched 3 more innings with it and was only a few pitches from his pitch count. So based on that it seemed to me that it was the pitch count, not the nail, but I asked it as a question. I also asked as a question why the pitch count was so low, and I didn’t say Torre was responsible for that, but your response suggested that’s how you took it. Again, I asked a question. I understand your getting testy about some of the negativity on the blog, particularly regarding Torre, but I hope you can be patient with mere questions about his moves, when they’re not bitter diatribes. I personally think Torre should have been gone after blowing the World Series with Jeff Weaver, and several times thereafter, but I don’t think that EVERYTHING he does is bad or wrong.
Even so, I do want to say how much I enjoy your blog. It’s far, far better than ones in the News, Post, or Times.
Whatever happens, thanks again for this awesome blog, Pete. I feel like I know someone who’s privy to all this info, and who’s letting me in on it as it happens. Really cool.
YankeesLuv:
Why did Jeter support Torre and not A-Rod?
Torre’s the Skipper who led the team to four WS championships and 11 playoff appearances and people are talking about firing him. A-Rod is one, albeit, gifted player on the team who had a bad year last year and who really sucks in the post season – so far.
“That’s unfair and it should stop.â€?
Jeter has made it perfectly clear that he can’t control what the fans do and who they should be supportive of so I guess those “Strong words from the captain” must have been meant for the media.
Some glass half full things for you gloomy types out there:
– ARod’s particularly hot start (despite his semi-funk) – Kei Igawa has appeard 5 times. He’s been crappy twice, but he’s been solid 3 times. We should be happy with that from a #5 guy:
5.1 IP/2 ER/3H/3K/2BB vs Oakland
6 IP/2 ER/5H/5K/1BB vs Cleveland
6 IP/0 ER/2H/6K/4BB vs Boston – The bullpen ERA was the lowest in MLB (2.02 IIRC) before the losing streak started (1-8). With the rest, I think we can expect great things from them.
This ship isn’t sinking.. but it does need to be righted.
Phil A.
Don’t get me wrong I love Jetes but the fact he didn’t stand up for Arod last year really irked me, he speaks up for Giambi who took steroids for goodness sakes, and his buddy Torre. I expect more from the captain.
Joe should have been fired years ago. Coming into this year, Mr. Steinbrenner put Torre on notice. The buck stops with Torre. You can’t start trading players…
(What was Torre’s record before he came to N.Y.?? There was a real reason for the paper calling him Clueless)
Torre is the guy setting records by using 5 or more pitchers in every game. Torre is the guy using the same relievers day after day, a problem he has always had. How many arms has he blown out? If Torre is going to pull guys in the fifth inning he has to let someone take a beating, instead of beating on the entire pen.
Of course Jeter is going to back Torre. He hasn’t played for anyone else in the major leagues.
JETER is COMPLACENT.
murphydog
I love him ever since he came up but I can’t defend him on that, it’s not right, it never was. He’s gotta be consistent and support all his teammates.
I don’t care for Torre, but I think now would be the wrong time to can him. I doubt he’ll be back next year, and as long as it’s someone like Mattingly replacing him I’ll be quite happy.
Things will get better, though. Mientkeiwicz, Cano, Matsui, Damon, Abreu, and Melky are all playing worse than even the most pessimistic projections, and when they come around it will more thank make up for A-Rod, Po, and Bruney playing over their true ability.
Mo has been horrible due to not getting enough work—I do think Torre needs to get him some more work even if it’s in non-save situations.
Nobody could have projected our starters would miss this much time this early, and I’m not counting Pavano, who has already exceeded my expectations.
There really wasn’t anything I would have done differnetly during the offseason were I Cashman. Maybe Lilly would have been a better investment than Igawa, but with the luxury tax I’m not sure…Igawa looks an awful lot like Lilly: a lefty with pretty good stuff, bad command, who should be good for close to a league average ERA. I’d probably put his ERA a bit higher than Lilly’s actually, but I think his value should be about the same as I think he’ll throw more innings.
For right now, I’m excited about Hughes. He pitched a lot better than his line Thursday (you don’t strike out 5, walk 1, and give out 0 HR over 4.1 IP without doing pretty well), and when he starts flashing the plus plus fastball command he’ll be a huge boost to our rotation. They have to be careful about his workload, but I think right now this could really help his development as he’ll learn exactly what he needs to do to get out good major league hitters.
As long as this team stays healthy, I think they haved a great shot at the Wild Card. The division isn’t out of reach but it is a longshot. I think a new manager mid-season does more harm to the team (and this coming from someone that really wants Torre gone), and I can’t imagine it doing anything but decrease the chance of us getting Clemens. Just show patience and I think things will work out. Get Phelps some more playing time to see if we need to go after a 1B, keep a close eye on our pitchers in AA and AAA, and go hard after Clemens. I don’t see much else helping this year.
Does anybody not expect Jeter to support Torre? He is the only manager he has ever known.
Of course he is going to support him. However, that doesn’t make him right on this issue.
If the players on the team are going to decide the manager’s fate, words aren’t enough.
Play better and win games. Plain and simple. If not, impassioned pleas aside, its going to be tough for him to keep the job through the season.
If Girardi isn’t going to be the guy, then (regretably) I believe they are better off keeping him through the season, with the mandate that he is not to ruin the young pitchers on the staff. First sign of that, he goes. No if’s, and’s, or but’s.
Don Mattingly may be a very nice guy, and a great Yankee player. However, he is not ready to be the manager of this team.
One year of being the bench coach isn’t going to do it either. Its too tough a job.
We are seeing a guy with 12 years experience on the job, and over 20 years as a ML manager struggle mightily on this job right now. How in the world is a guy who has never managed at any level going to do this job? Makes no sense.
They should fire him tonight and hire Girardi.
If that’s not the plan, or not their desire, then they might as well keep him on with the caveat I listed above and hope they can play themselves out of last place.
What a mess. This is what happens when you bring back a lame duck manager/coach in any sport. It never works out for the best.
“who had a bad year last year”
Alex’s bad year is still better than most players’ good years, including Jeter. If Jeter had a good reason for not speaking up for Alex, it’s certainly not that.
How can he use different pitchers? He’s using the whole bull-pen plus Andy P. every two days. There is no one not getting overused. Name one guy he’s not using. Bad pitching is bad pitching. It makes a team look bad and puts pressure on defense and offense. Pitching picks up and this team will follow in all facets of game. Toree will look like god for bringing this team back from the abyss.
“We are seeing a guy with 12 years experience on the job, and over 20 years as a ML manager struggle mightily on this job right now. How in the world is a guy who has never managed at any level going to do this job? Makes no sense.”
Actually, I think that’s the problem. Torre’s old school and is completely set in his ways. He’s a great guy and I love what he does for the clubhouse, but I want someone more accepting of sabermetrics and who has an idea of how to manage a bullpen. I’m hopeful based on things I’ve heard about Donnie that he’d be that guy, and I hope Torre’s influence on how to deal with the players and media have rubbed off on him.
Firing Torre will make us lose an edge in acquiring Clemens as well, because he and Torre are familiar and I’m sure it’s a factor. Not the most important one, but anything that helps is welcome. Plus, to which team would you rather go, the first place red sox on a roll or the struggling Yankees, whose struggles are so visible they even had to fire their manager?
Something that gets me is people thinking Steinbrenner is not lucid or mentally hazed. The man is older, he isn’t involved with the team as much, that doesn’t mean he is in and out. It just means he has other concerns like health and getting pissed and yelling at everybody will hinder his health, it doesn’t mean he is senile.
Tough call on who follows Torre if he’s fired. I guess I would prefer Girardi, just because I’ve never seen Donnie manage before.
I’m not a fire Torre guy, but if they do fire him I think they should make Bowa the manager and ask Girardi to replace him on the coaching staff.
YankeesLuv:
Support takes many forms. You were not in the locker room and neither was I. Two people who were there, A-Rod and Jeter, have addressed this numerous times. Most recently, A-Rod said this spring he had Jeter’s support, Jeter said he gave A-Rod support. Just because the support didn’t take the form you would have preferred doesn’t mean Jeter didn’t support A-Rod.
So, let’s put this to rest once and for all. Let’s just be honest and say that Jeter didn’t support A-Rod in the way or to the degree that you would have liked. We should all then walk away from this tired old soap opera story just like Jeter and A-Rod have.
If they have buried the hatchet, why on earth is anyone bringing it up now?
I think you’d have to go with Bowa if Torre was fired, but firing Torre is admitting that this is an out of control situation, and I really believe it’s next to impossible for a situation to be out of control on April 29th.
Torre should be given the rest of the year although George should tell him to stop burning out a few relievers and stop his pinch running for Giambi fetish. But if he were to make a change it should be Girardi. He has some fire and this team is flat at times. He may even has the “eggs” (as Bayern Munich goalkeeper Oliver Kahn would put it) to tell Jeter his job as captain is to support all his teammates, including ones who make more money than him.
Bowa did a lot to run Scott Rolen out of Philadelphia. Don’t hire him
why am I bringing it up now because he’s speaking up for Torre, and he has not been consistent with his support. I made one statement, and I’m not the only one that feels that way. You said he didn’t support Arod because he “sucks” and had a bad year? What was the point of that?
j:
I totally agree; it’s next to impossible for things to be out of control on April 29th. I’m not sure how much longer things need to go south, though, before we reach that point. Especially if we keep losing ground to the first place team which, unfortunately, is Boston. 10 games out? 15? There has to be a breaking point somewhere, even if we haven’t reached it yet.
Does anyone have any idea what kind of manager Mattingly would be? I don’t mean how successful, because there’s no way to know that, but would he be really calm, like Torre, or fiery? Would he tend to be loyal, possibly to a fault, to certain players, or would he be willing to ruffle egos and go with, say, a younger guy? Does he take an analytical approach (study stats, for example), or more go with the gut approach? He has no record to draw on, but does anyone have a sense?
I’d think they might need a more fiery guy if they replace Torre—in part to wake the team up, and in part because since they can’t find someone who the players will LIKE any more than Torre, they might have to turn to someone they’d fear a bit more (e.g., Bowa, Girardi?). (I’m not advocating firing Torre right now, just asking what to replace him with if they do.)
Pursuing Roger Clemens is the LAST reason why Joe Torre should stay on as manager of the Yankees.
Roger Clemens is not going to sign with a last place team, ok? I don’t care who the manager of the team is when he is ready to sign.
He wants to win. If the Yankees aren’t in that position, he isn’t coming.
That card can’t be played. Plus, who is to say he is the “savior”?
What if is he just a 5 inning (albeit a very good) pitcher in the American League?
Is that what this team really needs right now?
Nope, that logic (keep him to get Clemens) gets no run from me.
If its not Girardi, I can readily accept the guy staying on as manager the rest of the way as long as he doesn’t ruin any young pitchers.
If that’s the best we can hope for this year, so be it.
But, the “Clemens recruitment” stuff is BS, IMO.
If Roger really wanted to help him out, he would be ready to pitch right now. A month of now, it may not matter.
Just for the record, Jeter said we would never tell fans not to boo. He didn’s say he didn’t support A Rod, I am sure he said he did every time he was asked.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5SVBWREZF5Y
Steinbrenner doesn’t look senile in that video signing autographs.
The Boss is OK.
SJ:
Wow. For a second I thought you were going to forget to say FIRE JOE TORRE.
Yup. Jeter’s statement is all about loyalty – - there’s no objective substance to what he says, having played for over ten years and winning a few awards and rings and silly stuff like that. Noooo sir. Ditto Giambi.
I mean when it comes to professional baseball, and knowing what is really going on, how can anyone listen to those two?
If Torre gets fired then does anyone really want to see Don Mattingly with ZERO managing experience in any level besides hitting coach) be the one to take over???
Last thing I want to see is Mattingly getting fired.
YankeesLuv:
I didn’t say Jeter didn’t support A-Rod because A-Rod sucked. I drew a distinction between the importance of A-Rod to the team over the last 11 years and the importance of Joe Torre.
Secondly, in my next message I said Jeter did support A-Rod and I added the A-Rod agreed that he had Jeter’s support. They said it this spring.
Get over it. A-Rod and Jeter have. A-Rod and Jeter are not the issue.
Me get over it? I’m fine thanks. I just made a statement about it, didn’t get all freaked about it. I’m over it, was never in it, I think you should get over it. And I think it’s this is officially over.
Good to see Jeter speak out and support Torre when hes going through a tough stretch…......where was this love and support for Rodriguez last year?? We had a great team last year unfortunately our best player was in a funk and was thrown under the bus by the team captain. what a shame
Why not Joe Girardi? If Torre must be replaced then they should at least do it with someone that knows how to manage.
thrown under the bus? i would not call that throwing under the bus. did he ever say arod sucks? did he ever say arod is not clutch? did he ask fans to boo arod? was he the one that gave info to tom verducci for that arod is a loner article? no…he didn’t. so he didn’t THROW HIM UNDER THE BUS. as murphydog said, they got over it, fans need to as well. oh and i’m sure if jeter publicly proclaimed his undying love for arod last year, arod would have hit better. i’m really sure. just to remind you…all the booing was happening in the middle of the season. towards the end, arod was getting standing O’s left and right. so unless they didn’t make it to the postseason, you really have no legitimate point if you think we would have won the WS had arod not been shown undying love during the postseason.
Let Torre bat 8th on Tuesday instead of firing him. Then the next time we see him, he’ll be on fire, be named Manager of the month for May, all the fans who are calling for his head will say how much they always wanted him to stay and that all is good for now but he better come through for us in the playoffs. That seemed to work once this year already
Aside from ability, major awards and press adulation go to a closer who provides a grand gesture for a clip on ESPN or a photo online or in papers. I’ve even seen an article praising Rivera but with a picture of Krod and his victory growl over it. The point being, Ron Blum’s AP article just mentioned the Papster raising his arm high in the air as he made the final out at 1B against the Yankees.A picture of that gesture will go all around the world. Rivera has not done the ferocious growl and fist pump as other late inning relievers. That’s why even though he is “the greatest money athlete of all time” and “maybe the greatest Yankee of all time” (both last year from Lupica) the press glom on to the guy who gives the Sports Ctr/Baseball 2Nite
video. I just thought I’d mention it since Blum just wrote about it. Not too many ESPN shows open with a guy quietly with his head down, maybe a little smile, with which Mariano usually ends his usually successful outings.
I’d much rather be building towards the world champs of 2009, when that new stadium opens, then worry about a flawed team becoming the champs in 2007.
I have a million frustrations as to Joe Torre, but I cannot see him getting fired. This is not just about the end of Joe Torre. It’s potentially(key word: potentially)about the end of a 10 year run where, while we didn’t win championships the past few years, were in it with that same nucleus of Jeter, Posada, Bernie, Mariano, etc. It’s the end of them being enough.
Unless this gets truly embarassing, which it is a far cry from when you consider that we were 10-19 a few years ago, he should finish the year and be able to get his plaque in Monument Park next year. Hopefully, Henn and Bruney will have both arms intact by then.
If Jeter wants him to stay, he stays.
Jeter rarely ever speaks out about anything. Joe has to be important to the players for them to all be speaking out for him.
If Torre is fired, say goodbye to the playoffs because the motivation of our star-studded, best team in baseball will come into question.
if someone’s gotta go to keep the boss happy, what about gator? thoughts?
pat: lol….he’ll also lose a bunch of weight before the next time we see him too!
If the Captain says it will be alright? Come on. The team has no starting pitching, A-ROD is on the verge of going into another slump, and the team just looks totally listless. Something needs to be done now, and yes with the way the Sox are playing, and their ridiculous pitching staff (Papelbon is the devil)it is time to push the panic button before this season goes down the drain. I’m just saying what everyone is thinking. If this gets up to a 10 or 12 game deficit its over, and its not that far away.
A-Rod went 2 for 4 today. If that’s the verge of another slump, I’m all for it.
If the Yankees’ players wouldn’t be motivated if Torre is fired, then the problems are worse than I thought.
Personally, I think Torre has managed so poorly that he deserves to be fired. I understand that the starters haven’t performed well, but that doesn’t excuse his poor bullpen management and many curious strategic moves. Having said that, Torre is too entrenched in the clubhouse and in the whole culture of the team. That makes it very difficult to fire him in season…if Cashman does really have cause to worry about the team’s reaction to a Torre firing than his hands are probably tied. The time to make a change was probably in the off season, so now it looks as if the team may be stuck.
Correction, the Yankees were 11-19 in 2005 then went on to win the AL East, sorry I hate factual errors. They never were 10-19 or 9-19 as someone stated above.
The only problem I have with Jeter is he is the one who tells us every year that the season was a failure because the team didn’t win the World Series (I disagree with that logic). So, by his terms, Torre has failed as a manager for six straight seasons. Also, if he is going to say “Torre doesn’t play for us”, then he is basically saying the manager is just a figurehead. If that’s the case, then what difference does it make.
All this talk about getting rid of Joe is ridiculous. When you lose most of your starting rotation and have to rely on kids coming up from AAA, we can’t expect miracles.
What’s happening now is a combination of bad timing and bad luck. We’ve seen things swing the other way now it’s swinging against us.
As for Mattingly, as someone else said, I’ve yet to see him deal with a situation where he has to strategize midgame, to say nothing of successfully deal with all the personalities and idiosyncracies on the roster. Relying on him now would be like asking Phil Hughes to suddenly pitch like Roger Clemens in his prime. Both expectations are naive and unrealistic.
Finally, as for Jeter’s comments, different situations call for different responses. And with ARod, I have long said that the last person ARod wanted to have made a big public show of buddy buddy support would have been Jeter.
I also think a lot of that whole mess was a creation of spin…
This Sox fan would love for George to be stupid enough to fire Torre. Everybody knows the Yankees will be in it in the end, they always are.
There is nothing ridiculous about considering a managerial change. In fact, it would be irresponsible for Cashman to dismiss the possibility out of hand. There may be every reason to keep Joe, but there also may be cause to let him go. Anyone suggesting that even considering a change is ridiculous, is, well, being ridiculous themselves.
Torre diserves to be fired if only for his horrible in game decisions and his burning out of the bullpen (not just this year with the injuries, but EVERY year). To say nothing of the fact that the Yankees have been total failures in the past 3 years in the playoffs despite having the highest payroll. This team does not have any passion and right now neither does Torre. It is actually shocking when you do see some life out of him on the bench. The Yankees policies of not allowing pitchers to throw inside and hit opposing batters are also costly. If Torre does not go, then who? Cashman? Isn’t anyone accountable? This team will probably be a factor in the end because there is still alot of talent. But Joe has already cost them a few wins this year with his bullpen and roster moves.
Will:
Wrong. You fail logic 101.
1) Steinbrenner dictates that nothing less than a World Series win matters. Joe says the goal is the World Series because his boss George says it and the team has to know what the Boss expects. Jeter shares that view. It is a lofty and completely unreasonable goal and they know it.
So when Jeter addresses a season’s end without a WS win, Jeter is only saying that for Jeter the season was a failure. He means that he didn’t get the job done. Jeter has never called anyone else a failure in that context and trying to torture his comments into criticism of Joe is pretty lame.
2) When Jeter says that Torre doesn’t “play” for us, he is distinguishing managing from executing. He is not calling the team’s manager a figure head, he is saying the players have a different job from the manager. C’mon. You really didn’t understand that?
Poking my head in over here, which since I’m a Sox fan I rarely do.
Some of you may remember me as agastald back from Peter’s mlblogs days.
I’ve seen alot of blogs these days saying the Yankees are done. Both Yankee and Sox blogs. Each time I shake my head. Does anyone really beleive that the Red Sox and YAnkees won’t both be in hunt at the end? You have an offense thats almost obscene in how deadly it is. I have no doubt you WILL win games, you WILL contend and I will never ever feel comfortable facing you. History has taught me that.
Of course, I hope the Sox win.. and beleive our pitching will carry us. But never will I be comfortable with the Yankees playing. Remember that, in these dark times, Red Sox fans still fear the New York Yankees.
Besides.. lets say on some rare chance you finish third or something silly like that? You know what happens then? A cleansing of fans. I don’t know if you guys disliek bandwagon fans as much as I do, but after 2004 I saw Sox hats EVERYWHERE (I do not live in New England), and many upon my talking to them.. clearly did not know their stuff. Bandwagoners. It was ‘chic’ to love the Sox. After last year? Much much less. Now if I see a Sox hat, I can be fairly sure that they are real fans. So thats an upside, I guess.
Either way, I expect y’all to compete and to be biting my nails until the very last day of the season. My mental status is very pleased that we don’t see you guys for a few weeks. I need the break for my sanity. (Of course we do face the Jays.. and they give us fits.. still better them than you)
Also, to say one ‘typical’ Sox fan thing, it fills me with UTTER GLEE to see the hatred (aka fear) for Papelbon. Thats how I have always felt towards Mariano Rivera… and how I still feel about Mo. I won’t stop fearign Mo until he retires and the Yankees hang his number on their wall. But Papelbon is indeed awesome and I love having him.. never felt like this about a closer before.
Joe Girardi is the answer. This team needs someone to kick over a few tables, show some life (for once) and maybe the team will feed off that. In every sport, a team tires of the same “voice” and a change is needed. I feel that this team is in need of a change. Joe Torre’s push button managing was perfect for the self starters of the mid 90’s, but unfortunately this team does not contain the Oneills, Brosius, Knoblauchs, etc who would light a proverbial fire under everyone.
and one more thing, can someone please hit a red sock? I know gentleman joe wont do it.
murphdog…you fail debate 101 (I guess you missed the lesson where “what I say is right” fails as a tool of persuasion).
Fact: Jeter says it’s a failure when the TEAM doesn’t win the World Series. He doesn’t say I failed…he says “we” failed. I presume Torre is part of the “we”.
Fact: The manager plays the personel that is failing to execute. He has to take responsibility for a Scott Proctor appearing in 15 games, Kevin Thomson ending a game because Giambi was run for and the Tampa game when the order in the 9th was Minky, Melky and Cairo. If you are going to absolve Torre of responsibility because he “doesn’t play”, then he gets NO credit when the team wins.
See, this is why it will be hard to get rid of Clueless Joe. Most of the stupid media and the players won’t realize that he’s being fired because he is a terrible manager, they will just think it is because of the poor start to this season. While he has made some terrible decisions so far this season that have made the impact of the injuries even harder to take, but he deserved to be fired after the 2004 season and definitely after last year (When George was ready to fire him) but he was pressured into not making the decision. Joe is a big part of this franchise’s history and was responsible for bringing us a lot of World Series Championships, but he has been on a SERIOUS decline for the last few years and is simply not the manager that this team needs. He has proven time and time again that he should not be able to manage a bullpen and he has made countless errors that have hurt this ball club. The sooner Torre goes, the better. The only problem will be the people who will not understand why he is going, and make a big deal about it.
Dionysus:
It’s a dark day when a Sox fan is making more sense than many of the alleged Yankee fans over here. But a dark day it must be because you are on the money. I’m sick to my gills with know-nothing Yankee “fans” who could do so much better than Cashman and Torre. Maybe a return to real fans instead of bandwagoneers would be a welcome change.
Good luck, D. Hope to see you guys later in the year with the money on the line.
Will:
Manager = Manager. Player = Player. Managers manage and players play. Am I going too fast for you?
Joe has only 25 players in the clubhouse and 40 on the MLB roster. When his starters go down with injuries and the replacements at his disposal can’t go beyond the 4th inning, he has to go to the bullpen. The players assigned there are the ones he can choose from. He chooses and they play. What are you suggesting? Someone in the bullpen should have appeared in 30 games so that Proctor could have been brought in less often? Chase Wright gave up four consecutive HRs. I suppose Joe should have left him in there to take one for the team and save the bullpen.
It’s easy to second guess, Will. Apparently in your opinion he has used Proctor too much. If Joe uses Henn you’ll say he should have used Myers. Doesn’t prove much that after Joe’s choice fails, you would have done it differently.
“Yeah, in the “old daysâ€? of the mid-1980s, George would have fired the manager and brought back Billy Martin for the 4th or 5th or 6th time. How successful was all that?”
Imagine if Billy were still alive. By now, this would be like his 25th stint as manager!
Yeah fire Torre AND Cashman after all:
a. They’ve caused at least 5 of our starters to go on the DL at one time or another during the first 23 Games.
b. They’ve failed to hit with runner’s in scoring position
in several close losses to the Red Sox and other teams.
c. They haven’t given us any quality starts by keeping pitch counts reasonable, throwing 7 or 8 innings, and keeping us in ballgames.
d. They’re responsible for accomplished hitters like Cano, Abreu, Matsui, and Damon (he gets a pass because of injuries) batting at least 50 points under their BAs.
C’Mon, Jeter’s right in a sense. Torre puts the best lineup on the field (some pitching decisions aside) and its up to the players to execute. I’ve said over and over that Torre has his faults (Yes, pitching management) but who else is better qualified right now to lead this team of veteran stars and all their egos?
Girardi? He managed a team of AAA players – If he’s selected – the Owner, The Front Office and the News Media would eat him for dinner.
Bowa? Firey guy… Will low-key guys like Abreu & Jeter, rookies like Hughes, super stars like ARod respond to him?
Mattingly? Great respect, but too green for this collection.
Pena? Maybe. But what risk is their to losing the trust already built with “Torre’s guys” – Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Pettitte, and Giambi – most of which will be counted on to lead this Team the rest of the Season.
murph…thanks for proving that you either aren’t interested in or capable of intelligent exchange. You’ve proven an inability to do anything other than repeat yourself. Thankfully, the blog doesn’t have audio posts, so I can simply ignore your inane and childish ravings.
I love Jeter more than anyone, but I like him most when he speaks least. Just so we’re clear, Joe gets the credit (and the astronomical salary) when we win but he has nothing to do with it when we lose?
Also, who knew it was a love for Joe that brought Giambi here? I always thought it was Oakland’s refusal to give him a no-trade, followed by the Yanks giving him millions and millions of dollars, and a couple of years, more than any other team was stupid enough to do. Someone tell that phoney juicebag you actually have to win something, or at least not repeatedly quit on the team in the post season, before you start mouthing off about who the manager should be.
I wanted Joe gone at the end of last year partly because I thought (and think) that he’s lost passion and gotten content (which is natural when you’ve had his success) and partly because I don’t think this team needs a guy to put out fires (his one real skill) it needs a guy who can start them.
For the past three years we’ve staggered coming out of the gate and gone down with one punch in the playoffs. If that’s not a reflection on the manager, what is?
Still I think having started the year with him, it would be foolish to whack him so early. The team needed the time and distance that the off season would allow to deal with such a traumatic move, and I think we’d really go in the tank if it happened now.
I believe he should (and will) get until at least the end of May to right the ship, and I believe that if Moose comes back healthy and effective, and if Pettitte and Wang stay healthy, and if Hughes or Igawa settles in as a solid 4, everything will be fine. That’s alot of ifs, I know.
It would be travesty to fire Torre. It’s not his fault about the record right now. The Yanks have been hit with injuries and the pitching staff simply hasn’t performed yet. No other manager is suddenly going to make Kei Igawa Dice-K or turn Minky into a hitting machine. Torre has earned his place here and quite honestly after what he has done for the Yankees, I think he has earned the respect to discuss his own exit with the boss; and he should definitely not be fired in April, there is so much baseball left that we could be laughing about this in September 8 games up. Everyone needs to relax and realize that baseball is an unpredictable game. There is no better manager than Joe Torre, the bullpen has been overused because the starters have performed poorly, plain and simple. I trust Joe Torre, that won’t change.
murph should win an award for being one of the few logical people posting tonight and instead of retyping everything he said I will all point you to his opinions.
What else can Torre do guys? C’mon be realistic, its one bad week and its not like a bad week will hinder our playoff chances. If we were 5 games up in July and had a bad week like this do you think Torre would get fired. Heck no. He HAS HAS HAS to use the bullpen b/c our starters are only going 5 innings and they are getting pulled b/c they are ineffective not because Torre hates seeing them pitch and wants to see if Proctors arm will actually fall off. You guys all ripped him for taking Pettitte out on Friday when he had walked in 2 runs and let one get in on a wild pitch???? What manager would leave him in during that? Ok he ran for Giambi and it came back to bite him in the butt but I don’t think a manager who has won 4 WS Titles for this organization should get fired b/c of a couple bad strategic moves.
If 1 person can tell me what they would do with the pitching that Torre has not done I will drop this argument and if an answer involves Colter “5.19 ERA in Scranton” Bean I will not keep reading. He has done what has to be done with a injured/bad staff and only so many bullpen pitchers many of which have been effective. He takes guys out b/c of ineffectiveness a lot of times not b/c he hates them or has a personal vendetta against them.
I love the way Cash plays the stand-up guy, backing Joe. The only reason he fought to bring Joe back was to cover his own ass if things went bad.
If Pinella was the manager now and the record was the same, who’s head do you think would be on the block? Not the first year manager, that’s for sure.
If only Cash were as good at evaluating pitching as he is at giving himself cover, we’d all be alot happier.
“Roger Clemens is not going to sign with a last place team, ok? I don’t care who the manager of the team is when he is ready to sign.
He wants to win. If the Yankees aren’t in that position, he isn’t coming.
That card can’t be played. Plus, who is to say he is the “savior�?
What if is he just a 5 inning (albeit a very good) pitcher in the American League?”
I have to agree with SJ44 here. The reason for Clemens leaving his Houston home would be to have a shot at a title. If we are in last and Boston is in first, no way is he coming here. Additionally, Clemens is a Torre fan. If Torre is fired there is even less reason for him to come to NY.
It’s doubtful Clemens would be the savior many of you believe anyway. He didn’t typically go that deep into games when he was in NY the first time. What makes people think he’ll last longer at 45 years old? What we really need is a decent pitcher that can eat up innings and take some pressure off the pen. I don’t see Clemens, or Hughes for that matter, being that guy.
Face it we have serious pitching troubles, and changing managers won’t change that. Wang is our only starter capable of consistently going 7-8 innings (assuming he gets back to last years form). Zito is an innings eater, but I honestly can’t fault Cash for not significantly overpaying for a guy I would only consider a decent 2nd or 3rd starter. Unfortunately, maybe we should have. In retrospect, he would have helped bridge the gap until some of the younger guys are ready. Lesson learned.
“Most of us came here to play for Joe Torre.”
I thought most people come to the Yankees for the fat paycheck. My bad, Jason.
“There’s 86 percent of the season left and they haven’t had the rotation together for a full turn yet.”
Well, that’s life, isn’t it? It’s very easy to win with a 100% New York Yankees ballclub. It’s not so easy to win when you have some problems and all of a sudden you’re using 5 relievers a game and you keep playing Minky and Melky. Does Torre take the heat for trying to remove Igawa from the rotation based on one bad game when Igawa ended up giving them something they desperately needed against Boston? Or is that more of Joe’s genius?
“Joe Girardi is the answer. This team needs someone to kick over a few tables, show some life (for once) and maybe the team will feed off that”
Don’t count on it. Philadelphia let Bowa go because he was too fiery. They were losing. He was replaced with docile Charlie Manuel. They are still losing.
If it were up to me, Girardi would have replaced Joe Torre in the off season. I just think it was time for a change. No more, no less. That said, do you really believe that Giardi kicking over a few tables will change this team’s course? This is a team of highly paid and seasoned professionals, not a squad of rookies.
Like Joe or not, we are losing because of poor starting pitching. Changing managers won’t change that.
The arguments that Torre shouldn’t be fired because no one else can corral the players’ egos and that the media will sink its teeth into whoever follows are really laughable.
Not only have we seen Torre throw a player right under the bus – yes, A-Rod with the SI article & during the 2006 ALDS – the players aren’t children, they’re professionals, and should Torre be fired I expect they’ll continue to do their jobs to the best of their abilities.
The latter is absurd because part of the job description for any Yankee manager is to be ready to catch a sh*tstorm from the media.
To follow up on ChrisV82’s post, Melky Cabrera was in the on-deck circle today in the 9th as a PH for Josh Phelps if Cano had gotten on base.
Small sample sizes, I know, but here goes anyway:
2007 Cabrera: .200 / .238 / .213
2007 Phelps: .280 / .379 / .440
this is the way the dynasty will end; not with a bang, but a whimper.
i have no doubt they’ll get better, with or without torre at the helm. they’ll get healthier and they’ll start winning games.
however, the question is WHEN that’s going to happen. if they don’t turn it around soon, it might be too late.
i think they miss the playoffs this year, torre loses his job, they blow it up a little bit and start again next year. in the grand scheme, that’s not so bad.
or maybe they really turn it on and win another pennant. it could happen. right now, though, it doesn’t look likely.
i am baffeled at the media and their calling for torres head, i am part of the NYSBUA and i believe torre is doing what he can i also believe you get what you deserve and as a life long yankee fan i believe after the way they treated bernie williams they deserve this. after all with the injuries last year it was to bernie’s credit, he came in and filled in for damon and matsui and help keep the team on pace last year. now that there is no bernie there is no one to come in and fill that spot, so lets just keep it real whether you believe in karma or whatever, you you getwhatyou got coming, and as a yankee fan that sucks
I just don’t get the argument that Torre should be given time because he hasn’t had a healthy team and the starting pitching has been awful. Certainly, that’s not his fault. He didn’t hurt Matsui, Pavano, Mussina, Damon and Wang. He also hasn’t been walking batters and leaving pitches up over the plate. Of course he isn’t responsible for the play of those on the field. To suggest that would be insane.
What is not insane, however, is to expect Torre to do the best he can given the available resources (i.e. players) in a particular situation. I wholeheartedly agree with Chris a few posts up; it’s really easy to win with a healthy team of thriving players. It’s when adversity hits that the true test arises. Thus far, Torre has proven himself unable to successfully manage through adversity. The list of flaws is long and comprehensive, so I won’t even go into it.
One last point – I also don’t buy the argument that Torre only gets “credit” when he loses, and not when he wins (and that this is unfair). I, of course, have zero managing experience, but I’ve watched enough baseball and read enough studies to know that a manager’s primary job is to put his best players on the field and make sure everyone gets along. That’s about it. I wish Torre took a page out of this book – play Phelps instead of Mientkiewicz, leave the rest of the lineup in tact (except for rest days), bunch and pinch-run less, and manage the bullpen more deftly. The rest should work itself out.
So maybe the Yanks aren’t appealing to Clemens right now because they are in last place but can the Red Sox afford him and do they need him? Once Lester is back they have a pretty solid 5 man rotation. And Dice K is obviously costing them a ton of money so what would be the point of them pursuing Clemens? If Clemens decides to play this year, I have little doubt that he will come to NY and help “save” the Yankees.
Jeter is right, it’s not Joe’s fault. It’s note ven his fault that the pen is overused. It’s not his fault that the starters can’t go past 5 innings. And if Joe does let them go past 5 innings when they aren’t pitching well and have thrown alot of pitches, then the starters will be overworked, pitching 6.0 innings, but also giving up 10 runs and having thrown 135 pitches every start. Sure, our pen would be fresh, but not our starting rotation.
The point being, we need our starters healthy, and with that, the Yankees will do their thing, and win the Division once again.
Barry Zito wouldn’t have been a good of signing either. He’s barely throwing 6 innings now in SF and his stuff isn’t that great. He’s barely a shell of his former Cy Young self-
he’s a one hit wonder, IMO. He couldn’t bridge the gap for the younger pitchers when he ended up getting an 8 year deal or something at 90 million? That’s not something to hold you over—you’re making that your franchise pitcher with that contract and Zito is not that guy. Not at all.Torre should have been fired after last years Detroit debacle. It’s time for Torre to go, they need to shake things up a little bit. We need a guy with passion and who is not afraid to light the fire under this team. We don’t need a guy with a blank expression sipping green tea.
Only one way to “punish” this squad of ovepaid underperforming athletes (AROD, Jeter & Posada excepted)short of exhuming Billy Martin – give Joe’s job to LARRY BOWA
Guys… Things look real bad. But we can’t give up on this team. We invest so much time into posting here, going to games, buying Yankees apparel. If anything, this is the time we should stick by them.
We are TOO damn talented for this to continue. I’m in it through thick and thin. Hopefully things get better fast. We got Phil Franchise pitching on Tuesday. The hot streak starts then!
I don’t expect Phil Franchise to be our savior either. He’s too green and needs time to complete his development. However, I am excited about him. He pitches hard with good movement. Looks like the real deal. Let’s hope he doesn’t catch the injury bug in NY right now, because this kid will be good.
Just keep him far from Pavano.
If the Yankees continue to play like this and are still in last place by the time Clemens makes his decision, it wouldn’t make any sense for the Yankees to want Clemens either considering that the season would be lost by that time. No point in bring in Rocket in that case. So there’s no point to considering the fact that Clemens wouldn’t want to play for NY in that case. The Yankees need to perform much better for it to make sense for both sides.
However even there there is cause for concern, it is clearly too early to panic here. The Yankees will probably be fine. They are just going through a very rough stretch. And don’t worry about Boston too much, remember there is the Wild Card, in case Boston doesn’t slow down while the Yankees climb back up in the standings.
With no help coming in the foreseeable future, this season is over.
If you think Mussina is enough to rescue an entire pitching staff that still lacks a #4 starter then you are insane. The offense may be the best in baseball but how many games can they come from behind to win because the pitching is atrocious??
Hey, If I were a Red Sox fan I’d want to see Torre stay as well.
dumbest statement ever above me
here’s a question: is scott proctor about to become the new tanyon sturtze—that is, a guy who’s just too tired and exhausted to be effective, but whom Torre somehow cannot stop using?
And here’s another question: any chance Colter Bean finally gets his chance to show if he can help on the Major League Level? For that to happen, he both has to be here (check, for now), and Torre has to use him (a big question mark).
It’s nice that Jeter stepped up and is backing Torre, but maybe if he had done the same thing for Arod in 05/06 they would of made it out of the first round.
Mussina is a nice #3-4 starter, the season is in big trouble. The AL East is much stronger then in years past and I don’t see them picking up any easy games. In fact, Seattle/Texas seems easy until you consider they both have better rerords then the Yankees.
I can’t imagine what some of you were saying in 2005 when the Yankees started 11-19. Panic after 23 Games? Wow!
I’m sure some of you have played organized baseball at some point in your lives. I played on some very good amateur baseball and softball teams until I’d gotten old and cranky – and had to retire. Our tournament teams were comprised of skilled individuals – some were self motivated, some needed a gentle nudge, some were fiery, others were laid back. It’s those same players who become managers and their style typically remains the same. In our younger years, we had a manager who had Torre’s style, even-tempered but would give you that “stare” if you did something dumb or failed to hustle. We all had one common goal – play your very best and you will give yourself a chance to win. His most important trait – like most good managers – was his performance under fire. When things were “dicey” in a close game, younger players will look to their manager for leadership. The leader who panics and acts out of character, generally raises a red flag to the others which, in turn, creates doubt and increases the pressure to perform, instead of believing in their abilities. Torre, for all his faults, is a master at maintaining calm around his players.
I can only imagine that same feeling with professional ballplayers, they are motivated primarily by job security and the pride in being the best of their profession. A manager can motivate a team somewhat, but he doesn’t necessarily have to run out and throw 3rd base halfway down the leftfied line. Pinella did that several times with Seattle and Tampa Bay – how many pennants did they win? If some of these “millionaires” need their manager to motivate them to perform, then they shouldn’t be on a MLB Team.
The way I see it (a little tough love)
If the players are so worried about Joe losing their jobs then maybe they should get out there play and play to WIN. Stop being afraid to fail….did no one learn from the A-Rod ordeal last year except for A-Rod? How ironic that he was the one that came into the year with the most intensity and has been playing the best on the team?
This team looks anemic.
There were very few positives to take out of this weekend. One positive is Kei Igawa’s amazing start and win on Saturday. This could be a difference maker if Igawa can run with it. He lost control sometimes, but struck out 6 making some major hitters (Ortiz and Drew) look silly.
The only other positive I got from this weekend is that my brother and I both agreed that Julio Lugo looked like Jimminy Criquet, and we spent the weekend saying: “My name is Julio Lugo, do you want to be a real boy?”
We thought it was funny anyway.
LathamJoe, good post. Gets me thinking about tying a manager in baseball to a manager in corporate America as I have worked for many types of bosses. When your boss is intense and liable to go nuts, you basically work scared and try your best to produce while keeping one eye on other job openings. When your boss is too passive, you do whatever you want, and think about getting him forced out. The perfect boss is more in the middle, privately strong but supportive. I have to think Torre falls in this last group. Granted I don’t work with media scrutiny and nobody is up all nights writing blogs about my daily performance. This type of scrutiny ups the pressure making everyone more stressed and hurting production. Unfortunately that’s reality of being a professional athlete, especially in NY.
So what’s my point? I still think they should keep Torre until the end of the year, a new manager will not make enough of a difference and in some ways may make things worse as the new manager establishes his style. Let the players just play ball and not have to think about getting a new boss up to speed. After the season, all bets are off.
Hopefully this fire talk with help the team bond and come together and reel off a nice 12-2 run.
Oh yes, Jeter said back off…so we all need to back off. Because Jeter always knows what’s best and he is always fair. During that sentence my eyes rolled so far to the back of my head I needed to get smacked to bring them back. I thought Captain Perfection did not tell fans and the media what to do. Oh right, that only goes for A-Rod. That rule does not apply when it comes to defending father Torre or the sultan of HGH and Deca Durabolin.
Do I think it’s too early to be calling for Joe’s head? Yes I do. People need to chill. There are too many injuries and uncertainties in that bullpen for the losing streak to be blamed on anyone specifically.
However, if people are so quickly to destroy Alex Rodriguez every post season, anoit him team scapegoat and reason for constant failure…why can’t anyone question Joe Torre’s accountability for team performance without self righteous fanatics taking huge offense to it? The Yankees have not won since 2000. The Team scapegoat came to the Bronx 3 years after that. Torre has panicked for at least 3 post seasons costing the team. I am not calling for his head but does he owe Big Stein an explanation? YES.
I just read Joel Sherman’s blog and lays out the case to keep Torre better than I have seen. Here’s the link: http://blogs.nypost.com/sports/st/archives/2007/04/why_joe_torre_s.html#more
Here is the summary: “Look, Torre is hardly a perfect manager. His game strategy will not be confused with genius and he tends to overuse set-up men. But those have been problems during the past 11 years, as well, and he has 11 playoff appearances, 10 division titles and four championships. Overall, especially in the Bronx, the most important traits a manager can have, Torre has. I know that when the team is nose-diving as it is now, there is a hunger for action and blood, and the most obvious action is to demand the blood of the manager.
But this is what should be asked: Do you fire a manager when there is no revolt in his clubhouse, when your biggest enemy will like that you have done just that, when there is no obvious replacement and when the current manager has a track record of working his teams through the exact issue you face now?
I say no.”
I am with Interesting on this. Jeter isn’t nearly as good of a captain as he has been made out to be.
This whole ‘SAVE JOE’ routine is so old. When is Torre ever going to be accountable? The 2004 ALCS wasn’t his fault (even though he ran our bullpen into the ground), the 2005 ALDS wasn’t his fault, and the 2006 ALDS wasn’t his fault. How many free passes does this guy get? He’s morphed this team into the Atlanta Braves over the past few years. He has had a juggernaut offense EVERY YEAR HE IS HERE, average starting pitching, and a decent bullpen. He takes that bullpen and runs it right into the ground. And the only excuse I hear from people is “He’s a good people guy” or “He has four rings so he must do something right”. Well, give him a front office job if he is a good people person.
It’s time to stop living in the past. 2000 was seven years ago and 2003 was four years ago. Joe Torre is not a good manager. He was never really a good manager, he just happened to walk right into an awesome situation and rode it out with Zimmer at his side.
“Do you fire a manager when there is no revolt in the clubhouse? I say no”.
What if the players are too comfortable under a manager? Does there have to be a “revolt” to lead to a firing?
That’s ridiculous logic, IMO.
Sometimes, when a team is too comfortable with a manager or coach, that’s as damaging to a team as a revolt would be.
The lifeless brand of baseball this team brings to the ballpark everyday (no running, no hit and runs, no nothing) is on the manager. You can’t just sit on your hands and he has done it all year. As big a reason why they are in last place as the weather, injuries and any other excuses folks have come up with in recent weeks.
I have read the opinions of everybody on this issue. There are good and bad points to both sides of the argument.
I do find it funny/ironic that people are so quick to jump on Jeter’s words when he didn’t say a damn thing to stick up for ARod last year. You can’t be a selective captain for only a few people and that’s been Jeter’s biggest weakness as the captain of this team. Another issue for another day.
Its also funny/ironic that many of the same people who seem to think its too early to fire Joe Torre also think it was ok to treat the best player in baseball like trash last year.
Now, some of these same folks are begging him to stay because they know without him, this team wouldn’t have 3 wins this year. Irony at its best.
After seeing/reading both sides of the Torre argument, my final view is this. Regardless of injuries, weather or any other flimsy excuse you want to put on the table, he has done an AWFUL job with this team so far this season. From the first inning of the first game of the season, this team has looked lifeless and some of his in game decisions (which DO affect the outcome of games AND what you do the next day) have been horrifically bad. That’s on Torre.
You can’t only be the manager for the wins. Not at 7 million per year.
That said, if Joe Girardi is not going to be the choice (and I trust Pete’s reporting on this one), then it doesn’t make any sense to fire him, even though its the right move to make, IMO.
Don Mattingly can’t manage this team. I don’t care how good a player he was, this is not a job for a first time manager. Its too tough.
Part of firing someone is having a replacement in mind (and a philosophy) that will improve the team.
If Girardi isn’t the guy, then they are better off keeping Torre. play it out, and move on without him next year.
He should, however, be put on the strongest “notice” (or whatever you want to call it) possible to not kill the young arms on the staff. He overused Henn this week and it hurt the team. He has already killed Proctor.
That has to stop. If he is going to stay on, he has to take better care of the younger arms. That should be his #1 priority from here on out to continue to be the manager of the Yankees.
I am taking winning out of the equation. At this point, I don’t care if he wins anymore. Mainly, because I don’t think he CAN win unless everything is perfect. Since it isn’t, then I can’t see him winning anything this year.
I can live with that. I CAN’T live with him killing young arms. That would be completely unacceptable.
If he can get through the season without doing that, it may be the best we can hope for this season.
If he kills the young arms on this team with continued misuse, he will stain his legacy forever. Hopefully, he is smart enough not to do that. If not, then, viable replacement in place or not, they are going to have to remove him from the position.
At this point, the health of some of these players are more important than the wins and losses.
Well, at least nobody is screaming for a trade, you know,the sort of thing that always bit the Yanks on the butt in the past.
SJ44 has nailed it (again). “You can’t blame Torre because the team isn’t playing well” is the dummy argument. Of course you can’t blame Torre for a pitcher not having it on a given day. But you can blame him for failing to adopt a working strategy to deal with that pitcher not having it.
As Nomaas put it, why is Torre still playing reliever-hitter matchups and sticking to his designated “X pitcher for Y inning” routine when the pen is wrecked? Why is it assumed that Torre will stick to a certain bullpen plan no matter what (such as using as many relievers as possible to account for every matchup), and if the starters can’t play well enough to accommodate that strategy, it’s only the starters’ problem? Why does Torre deserve $7 million if his players have to make excuses for his inflexibility and bad decisions?
I think it’s way too early to seriously consider firing Torre. But I think it’s way too late to seriously think that he’s beyond scrutiny. If he cannot demonstrate an ability to learn from his mistakes over this month, if he continues to needlessly wear out the pen, if he continues to put the team’s worst players into the game in close-and-late situations (which has nothing to do with the pitchers), then the team should think about firing him, because he will keep us out of the playoffs.
“From the first inning of the first game of the season, this team has looked lifeless”
What a bloated exaggeration! They didn’t look lifeless when Mariano entered Opening day and shutdown the Devil Rays. And they looked full of life to me when they went to Minnesota and pounded the Twins into submission in 2 of those 3 games.
They didn’t look lifeless when they Alex Rodriguez hit the homer off of Joe Borowski. Or the homer off of Chris Ray.
They also didn’t look lifeless in that looooooong Oakland series where in 2 out of 3 games they where battling into extra innings trying to edge out the A’s. And they didn’t look lifeless on Jackie Robinson Day when all the players seemed pretty lively and happy to celebrate Jackie’s legacy. They didn’t seem lifeless during the 3 game sweep of Cleveland. The offense was definitely lively those days.
They definitely weren’t lifeless in the 3 game series at Fenway, where they had a 2-run lead in every game, something that would be quite difficult to accomplish if they had been lifeless. And when Rodriguez homered off of Schilling the team seemed very very lively. And they weren’t lifeless when Matsui and Wang returned in Tampa. The clubhouse was thrilled to see those guys and that was definitely a morale boost. And they weren’t lifeless with Phil Hughes on the mound. Everyone was excited to see what he could do.
And they weren’t lifeless this weekend either. They had Matsuzaka on the ropes early in Friday’s game. Igawa stepped up and showed what kind of life he had left in him on Saturday. And on Sunday the team seemed pretty lively after Mientkiewicz hit that big homerun.
Yeah. This team has been very lively since the beginning, so I have no clue what you’re talking about. Seriously, what team have you been watching? Don’t confuse poor results with lifeless play.
Sherman’s analysis is silly. Consider the following:
1) The 9-14 record is not reflective of managing. If the Yankees were 11-12 right now would there be panic? Probably not. Well, if Mariano Rivera completes his first two save opportunities – both of which he entered with multi-run leads – then the Yanks would be 11-12.
xx…I think many people feel that if Torre didn’t keep making poor decisions, the team would at least be 11-12. That is, after all, the point of a manager…to mitigate damage and accentuate success. Also, if we are going to blame Mo for blowing two saves, then do we credit Torre for Arod saving the Yankees bacon with two walk offs? Did Joe draw it up that way. Basically, Sherman and others want to blame the players when they lose and give Torre credit when they win. It’s either one or the other…you can’t have it both ways.
2)The team that would be most thrilled if Torre were dismissed would be the Red Sox.
xx-Of course they would…who else would keep bringing in Scott Proctor to pitch to them?
As much I’ve been one advocating a rush to judgment, I can understand the argument saying Torre deserves to at least have a few weeks with the rotation you listed above. Ok…fine…I can live with that. Going forward, however, he now has to do a better job managing the bullpen.
Consider the following:
In 2006, Scott Proctor yielded an OPS+ of 148 on 0 days rest. His OPS+ for 1 and 2 days rest were 90 and 76 (all other segments had a relatively low sample). The same patter holds for his career (although this year is a little skewed because Proctor’s OPS+ is actually not that bad, which could be a sign he has been unlucky or just a variation of a small sample).
If you look at Vizcaino, his pattern seems to suggest he is best utilized every other day. In other words, he should be on the Farnsworth plan.
The biggest shock to me is that Farnsworth’s career numbers suggest he is BETTER on 0 days rest. His two worst splits are 1 day and 4 days rest. Scarily, last season, Farnsworth was also better on 0 days rest, but that’s because his 1-day rest OPS+ against was 173!! The only time Farns pitched well last season was on 2-days rest.
Finally, in a much smaller sample, Bruney appears to thrive on repetitive work. With too much rest, his OPS+ starts to climb.
So, instead of just sniping at Torre, I’d suggest the following:
Use Viz and Proctor interchangeably…neither should pitch on consecutive games or in the same game. Use Bruney 2 of every 3 “meaningful” games (no more 10-2 games like in Cleveland), and Farnsworth for the other. That gives you two righty tandems. Henn should be promoted to meaningful situations, with mop up roles delegated to Myers or whatever extra righty is up in the pen. Of course, Mo is still there to close and provide occasional coverage when the right-handed tandems are overworked.
I don’t think this bullpen is inherently awful. If managed correctly, it can do the job. The starters need to do their part, but Torre has to quickly come up with a better plan for better bullpen utilization. My plan might not be the best, but I think we can all agree that Torre is right now using an ad hoc approach.
What’s really funny and ironic is that Kei’s performance on Saturday probably saved Torre’s job with the Yankees, right after Torre demoted him to the bullpen.
A sweep over the weekend, and Torre would have been 95.6% out the door.
I agree that the Yankees have not looked “lifeless” at all. If we were losing every game by 5 runs, maybe I’d believe that. But what’s made this month so maddening is that the great majority of our losses were by 1 or 2 runs. That’s not the mark of a lifeless team. That’s more attributable to a single mistake by a reliever, or a single failure to drive in a run in a two out situation.
The Yankees are #1 in the league in runs scored and #2 in baseball. They have scored more runs than they have allowed. This is not the sign of a lifeless team either.
So why do we have a losing record? Bad luck is one answer. But a better answer may be that the team isn’t making the adjustments that SJ44 talks about. And I think Torre’s use of the pen represents a failure to make a needed adjustment.
This team is not doomed yet, but it needs to learn everything it can from this month, or it will be.
Xryanx – I couldn’t agree with you more.
I’m not advocating the bashing of Torre or calling for it. I’m asking that he is measured as others have been. Yes, he’s won 4 rings here but he has also made some of the dumbest decisions a manager can do. He’s been called so many times a players manager, how come there are times when his clubhouse is a hen house?
Again, there is a reason for questioning and that cannot be taken away.
My old manager was a retired Navy Ensign. He had a favorite saying when people questioned baseball strategies:
“After the ship has sunk, everyone knows how she might have been saved.”
Hey, here’s a way that firing Torre might help reel in Clemens… Offer him a deal as player/manager. Roger’s ego is big enough that he might jump at the chance.
I re-read the Sherman article and now find it particularly idiotic because he says Torre has a track record of guiding the team through this exact situation. Really? I can’t remember a time in Torre’s tenure when he began the season with a decimated rotation and couldn’t buy a quality start from what was left, and also started the season with a horrendous bench. So there’s no track record. And in facing these problems, Torre has done a questionable job at best by sticking to the same old routines he always has.
Oh and another thing…Sherman’s a hack. You can’t pay attention to him or Lupica king of Pigmies
Jeremy, 2005.
Joel Sherman wrote that “during the past 11 years, as well, and he has 11 playoff appearances, 10 division titles and four championships.”
The obvious question Sherman does not address: Would a different manager have fared particularly worse (or better), being handed the same 1-2 billion dollars worth of talent over the same period?
I don’t subscribe to the theory that managers aren’t responsible (at times, at least) for the performance of the guys who swing the bats and throw the balls. Clearly there are managers who make smarter decisions than others, who are better motivators of their team, who work better with their staff, and who keep the team more on track to perform at their best.
To this outside observer, it is pretty hard to tell if Torre is really a great manager or just an average one blessed with an unusual amount of talent to work with. The phenomenal results before 2001 and the unsatisfactory ones since then may tend to suggest that the elements of chance and high payroll have more to do with his fortunes than any unusual skill.
Jeff NJ,
I may stand corrected. Our pitching really was bad in April 2005. I just don’t think we had chronic 4-5 inning starts though.
An interesting thing about Sherman. I saw him do post-game analysis on a My9 Yankee broadcast and it was one of the best I’ve ever seen. I wonder if the Post forces him to write bad articles.
if george isn’t george, the yankees are screwed. the yankees have the organizationalstructure of a mom and pop catskills liquor store. steve swindal was in charge of the
yankees only a few months ago. that’s how bad george’s judgement appears to have eroded. very few baseball families survive the estate tax hit. it not likely the steinbrenner family will keep the team despite what they say. if they do ,how do they compete with a relatively young baseball fan in john henry who’s worth 4-5 billion dollars who owns the red sox?
there is something cleary wrong for george to not be taking charge here. that’s the big story here. this isn’t just a losing streak or misuse of the bullpen issue.
we may be seeing the end of an era. the yankees need an owner who’s in charge. we need george to be george.
After first month of 2007 season.I am so amazed by the majority of Yankees fan reaction.
I am a Yankees fan who is from Taiwan since I was studying in US couple years ago.Before that,i was crazily rooting for one of Taiwanese pro baseball team.The team i was rooting for is not a good team.They lost a lot of games and don’t have good record.They have a good hitting tea