Gordon injury opens a door?
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News item: Phillies closer Tom Gordon has been sent back to Philadelphia to have his sore right shoulder examined.
Oh, really? I say again, Kyle Farnsworth for Jon Lieber. He is 1-0, 2.57 in 21 innings and has a 1.24 WHIP. The Yankees badly need starters and Krazy Kyle can close for Philly or set-up Brett Myers. Tiffany from Ultimate Banter now calls him Kyle Farnsworthless. Witty girl, that Tiffany.
News item: Boston prospect (and would-be No. 5 starter) Jon Lester left his latest rehab start with a forearm problem.
Julian Tavarez said the other day that the Red Sox didn’t need Roger Clemens. They might need him now if Lester is injured. One thing is certain, with every day that passes and every pitcher who gets injured, the Rocket is making more and more money.
News item: Carl Pavano to go see Dr. James Andrews. Surgery could be next.
The news just keeps getting worse for Brian Cashman. The GM was pleased to get rid of Randy Johnson, Jaret Wright and Gary Sheffield, three players he never wanted in the first place. But he stayed loyal to Pavano. The Yankees should have dumped the Rajah of Rehab (or American Idle as the Post calls him) and signed a more reliable starter to take his place like Ted Lilly. Did anybody outside of Cashman think Pavano was going to give them anything this season?
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Is it really smart having Brett Myers as your closer though? Freddie Garcia and Adam Eaton don’t strike fear in Little Leaguers, much less big leaguers. I have not heard anything if the Phillies will take Kyle Farnsworthless or not.
well i will confess i thought pavano would come back and give us somthing but he just has done the same thing he does every year with the yanks gets hurt and stays there oh well lets see if anyone will want him. But being that we need starters maybe cashman sticks with him and hope he comes back we’ll just have to see what Dr. Andrews says. On another note Dr. Adrews is having a good year with all these injuries.
I’m a life long die hard Yanks fan, but live near Philly the last 10 years. So, although to a much lesser extent, I also follow the Phillies. I’ve been suggesting Farnsworth for Lieber since Spring Training. Makes sense for all parties. Yanks need a starter, and Lieber eats innings. Phils have too many starters and no bullpen. Lieber would love to return to the Yanks, and Kyle would fair better in the NL.
Kyle would fair better anywhere that isn’t the Bronx.
I have to question why anyone who had Lieber would trade him for Farnsworth. However, if the Phillies would want anyone beyond Farnsworth for Lieber, no way do you give them a prospect for a one year rental.
thats a fair trade … get farnsworthless (great nickname) outta here, get a starter, and bring up britton.
I thought the premise was that Cashman was trying to up Meat’s stock before trying to get rid of him. I don’t know that he was ever truly meant to be an all-season guy.
I’d take either Garcia or Lieber for The Farns. It’s obvious Torre has no confidence in The Farns, so what’s the use of having him on the roster? Deal him for help with our more pressing need — starting pitching.
Jon Lieber is not good. Trading for him would be a huge mistake.
The worst thing about Pavano to me is that when he pitched, he looked good. Certainly good enough to win in New York. That made him tantilizing; you’d love to bash him, but secretly hope he gets healthy and wins.
But now you simply know he’s never coming back. We still have him for 2008, and the worst thing is, you know he’ll get paid after that by somebody stupid enough to take a chance.
Pavano is a heartbreaker.
yea….Cashman’s an idiot. Teams were actally calling him about Pavano yet he rather keep him!!!
Its unbelievable how Pavano robbed the yankees $40 mill.
I never thought Pavano would be back. At the same time, realistically, what could they have gotten for him? They should have treated him like Matt Clement — signed his checks and pretended like he never existed otherwise.
may not be a horrible idea after all Pete, Phillies should have Myers in the rotation though not as a closer, that’s just retarded, but if the Yanks get rid of Farnsworth there bullpen also gets a little weaker.
I think Pavano’s career indicated that even when he deigns to pitch, he’s not very good. I’m still not sure why Cashman ignored this
Guys, I gaurantee if anyone offered anything even remotely decent for Pavano, he would have been gone. The teams that wanted him wanted him for next to nothing, with us paying what, 8M a year of his contract? worth the risk that he might actually do something rather than pay him to pitch somewhere else.
What did we expect be offered for an injury prone, poor pitcher?
What exactly were the Yankees being offered for him in the spring? I never heard any specifics but it was probably “NY pays 90% of his salary and picks up an expensive stiff from us at full cost”.
One thing that struck me seeing Pavano pitch Opening Day and Hughes pitch on Tuesday is both of their pitching motions didn’t “look right”. Their torsos look very stiff, not like most pitchers. Is that just coincidence? Poor “performance ehnancement coach”? Fault of a Yankee hero-turned-first-time pitching coach?
i’m now completely in favor of lieber for farnsworthless. not because i think it’s a necessarily “even” value trade, but because the yankees clearly need pitching.
let’s see, a first-place team with potent offense, so-so bullpen and young stud closer or a last-place team with a potent offense, overworked/unreliable bullpen and an aging closer surrounded by questionmarks. gee, i wonder where clemens will sign. it’s tough…
putting faith in pavano and igawa was just colossally stupid. again, i’m less impressed with brian cashman each passing day.
Did you hear the way Cash defended all of Rajah’s injuries when he was talking to Michael Kay on ESPN? (Kay asked him why he didn’t — in essence — just tell Pavano to buck up and pitch through some discomfort like some pitchers seem to be able to do. Cash was animated in his response (animated for him), saying it was wrong for folks to assume these injuries weren’t real and that Pavano wasn’t trying to get back. It’s like it’s personal with him. Cash did say that he signed him. Maybe he couldn’t bear to be wrong? Anyway, a BIG mistake to not have gotten rid of him earlier (like immediately after his last game). He was never great; so why hold on to Mystery-Injury Man? Andrews is definitely going to give Pavano an out because that doctor is surgery-happy to be sure.
Yes, Pete. I like your trade. Kyle is freakin’ unreliable. Let him throw his straight, easy-to hit, bullet-like pitches somewhere else, please.
“One thing that struck me seeing Pavano pitch Opening Day and Hughes pitch on Tuesday is both of their pitching motions didn’t “look rightâ€?.”
Hughes’ delivery is pretty damn similar to Clemens’. The BP guys have noted that his mechanics are way better than Felix Hernandez or Fransisco Liriano, so he wouldn’t be nearly as prone to injury as they were.
Aside from that, the condition coach would have almost nothing to do with their deliviries. Hughes hasn’t been around Guidry long enough for something like that, and Pavano hasn’t been able bodied around Guidry long enough.
Kasey, there’s no way Cashman gets rid of Pavano in the offseason, so he’s gotta say something about him. If he pitches at all, his value goes way up: pitches well, they can keep him, otherwise he’s trade fodder that won’t cost 9mil/year to get rid of. How much can the man do when an absurd amount of the payroll is stuck in large and long contracts?
Putting faith in Pavano doing something this year was not stupid. It obviously has not worked out. But thats life. Thats baseball. Thats the human body. To call Cash stupid for making that bet is, itself, a stupid thing to do.
Life is risk-taking. Putting together a ball club is even more so. Criticizing someone for taking a chance is ridiculous. The odds were in favor of Pavano being healthy and reasonably productive, at least until his value was up enough to make a good trade.
Criticism regarding Igawa is downright mindless. He’s been bad, he’s been great. He’s getting better. He is already doing what was pretty much expected overall. And he is still in his first month in the big leagues.
Peter, please provide a shred of evidence that anyone was going to take Carl and give up any player worth having without the Yankees eating his salary. If the Yanks are going to pay him, let him rot on the Yankee bench vs someone elses. At least if he needs TJS, there may be some insurance to cover some of his salary.
Well when the Yanks signed Pavano he was the concensus top free agent pitcher, and we needed pitching. And 4 years isn’t a rediculous commitment. So the signing can be understood, if not liked.
As for not trading him in the summer. Like Cash said in Spring training he didn’t want to sell low. He would have to pay about $6-7M to have him pitch for someone else anyway. Best to take a gamble that he can make it to the all-star break missing only a few games, have a sub 4.50ERA and off-load him to pitching starved team – and there are always lots of those by the break – and save yourself a fortune. Then bring in Clemens or Hughes to take his place. Karstens was his back up if it all went wrong and he had a selection of others who could step in. It wasn’t so much that Cash was sure it would work out, it was just the best chance he had of getting something from the signing.
He can’t have expected Wang, Muss, Karstens, Sanchez and Pavano to get hurt. How many GMs get criticised for not having an 8th starting pitcher ready to go?
He must have thought that any injury rash would come after we had played a few more games and by that time Ohlendorf, DeSalvo, Rasner or Sanchez would be ready.
The initial signing was the throw money around reaction of how the team was run. Not throwing away the $20M he was due, is the responsible way the team is now run.
BTW people have been saying that signing Lilly for $40M would have been the same cost as signing Igawa. Not true. Igawa is not only cheaper given that luxury tax isn’t paid on the posting fee, but is a great chip to have in a year or two when our pitchers come through in droves. A decent lefty starting pitcher for $4m a yr. Teams will be lining up. Igawa is also younger and will get better as he learns the lineups and gets adjusted to MLB umps and strike zones. Lilly will be a dud by the end of his deal.
Does anyone think Clemens wants anything to do with Boston ? Nevermind guys basically bad mouthing him in Boston, why would he want to share the spotlight with Schilling, Beckett, and Dice-K ? In NY he is the A1 starter without question. On top of those 3 (what Sox fans like to call their “Aces”) Wakefield has been very good. No way is Clemens going to Boston to fill their need for a 5th starter.
I would pass on Lieber and hope the rotation stays healthy and Hughes recovers quickly. Clemens, Wang, Mussina, Pettitte, Hughes would get it done.
Brian M:
“He can’t have expected Wang, Muss, Karstens, Sanchez and Pavano to get hurt. How many GMs get criticised for not having an 8th starting pitcher ready to go?”
Precisely.
As for Pavs, the guy lied to Cashman, Torre and Co. over and over again. They had plenty of conversations during the course of this “injury thing” and Cashman’s fault if any was not believing that the guy was a pathological liar and fraud. Cash probably never met anyone quite as nuts as Pavs. I really wonder whether they can have him declared “disabled” under their player insurance, collect the money and release his sorry buttocks.
My objection to the Lieber trade originally proposed by Pete Abe was that it didn’t make sense to weaken the bullpen by trading Farns if you were concerned about your starters. That was before all the starters got hurt and Farns was permanently banished to Loser’s Island.
A trade for Lieber looks better now but anyone would look good after all the ER visits our starters have made. My concern about Liebs is that he has good numbers in an early sample in the NL but will it translate in the AL? And considering how badly conditioned Liebs usually is, how long does he stay effective? Having said that, what other choices do we have? Dropping Farns and adding Britton can’t be any worse that what we have right now. Let’s just be sure there aren’t other innings eaters out there to be had for Farns plus a player we won’t miss too much (Reese? Thompson?).
For everyone bashing Farnsworth, compare his numbers to Proctor and Vizcaino. Hes not doing bad, hes just never used. And when he does get used its after like 4 or 5 days of sitting on the bench letting rust build up.
It reminds me exactly of what happened with Villone last year. At the start of the season, Torre never used Villone. He had like 1 bad outing and went on his sh-t list. It wasnt until he was forced to use him on a regular basis that Torre got over his stupid trust issue, but then he abused the hell out of him.
Lieber put up a 94 ERA+ in his age 36 year. Steve Trachsel has had a few good starts this year. Want him? I don’t really see the value in adding a 37-year-old Jaret Wright, but thanks.
Has everyone forgotten that in 2004, Lieber led the YANKEES in both ERA and Wins?
Did everyone forget that gem of a game 2 he pitched in the ALCS?
Has everyone forgotten that in 2004, down the stretch, Lieber was our most reliable starter?
He should never had been let go in the first place.
Who would want Farnsworth?
Trading Farns for Lieber might not be such a bad idea because you can replace Farns in the pen with Britton, who had a pretty good year in Baltimore last year. That leaves the pen as:
Mo
Proctor
Bruney
Britton
Vizcaino
Meyers
Henn
Bean
And the rotation would be:
Wang
Pettite
Mussina
Lieber
Igawa/Rasner/Clippard/ect.
When Hughes comes back after the All-Star break, you put him #5 and move whoever is standing out of the 5 into the pen as a long relief guy or you sned him down to SWB to pitch regularly.
Seems to make a lot of sense to me. It is not like we have no one to replace Farns, and they can pitch on back-to-back days.
Farnsworth is worth more than Lieber.
Farnsworth (and not for nothing, but I called him Farnsworthless months ago; go back and check out the comments!… but thats neither here nor there) is of no comparison to Villone from last year. This is a guy who wont throw back to back days; when he does step on the mound, cant throw strikes; and when he throws strikes, even though he cranks it up there, its straight as an arrow.
i dont trust him any farther than i can throw him (which isnt far). There is a market building for him, and I think Cash gets what he can for him. Slot Protor, Vizcaino, Bruney for the 7th and 8th innings, and if Rasner doesnt take the 5th spot in the rotation, throw him in the pen, cause his arm is strong enough to go multiple innings when needed to help eat up some innings for the pen when the starters cant go far enough to help build that bridge to MO.
I’d have no problem bringing Lieber back; but I’ve also heard names like Noah Lowry or Matt Morris from SF, because they’ve got Lincecum (their version of Phil Hughes) ready to come up, and just need to clear a spot in the rotation for him.
Yeah, I remember 2004, but I also know that it’s 2007 and that Lieber’s 37, got hammered last year in the NL, and most likely would put up a 5.00+ ERA in the AL this year. Also, Lieber doesn’t miss bats and depends far too much on his defense to make plays.
Plus, if Fransworth is such a worthless piece of crap, why would any team want him?
Farnsworth still has a ton of value thru the league. His stuff is still fine and he doesnt have any injury issues.
But is this the time to really be weakening the pen??
Lieber is a joke. You dont trade solid bullpen guys for 5th starters.
They blew it by not signing Lilly when he wanted to come here and he proved he can win in the AL East.
Not an easy combo to have.
They should have built the rotation without Pavano in mind. if he came back, great. A bonus. A nice 6th starter.
Its like Cashman has to justify his 10 mil a yr salary. Who cares? You got a 200 mill payroll for a reason. Its so you can write off bad signings. Thats part of why the Yanks money is so much of an advantage. Whys he trying to play small market GM?
Can we release Carl Pavano and say he has mental issues and collect insurance? I’m so sick of this guy. Watch Andrews finds the mysereous injury and has to do “surgery” just to quiet the Yankee fans up. When in reality he finds nothing wrong, and Carl goes back to his home in Fla to sun bathe and drive his porche.
I thought Farnsworth had a bad back?
They may as well cut Pavano or transfer him to the 60 day DL. I believe that makes room on the 40 man roster.
As for that trade proposal, I don’t like it, unless we get something more than Lieber. Farnsworth is an important part of the bullpen and is as reliable (or unrelaible) as any of them. I think I’d rather trade Proctor while his value is high, I sense a drop off coming.
yes Pavano has in essence been stealing his $40 mil by hardly ever taking the mound, but I don’t think Cashman is as concerned as the rest of you about him being paid all that money – after all, he’s been on the DL for most of the past 3 years, and doesn’t their insurance policy pay the salaries for players on the DL, not the team? That said, they must have one hell of a premium.
Yeah, I’m sure a respected member of the medical community will just “do surgery” on someone just to make Yankee fans shut up. There’s no mystery here, people. There’s no conspiracy. Carl Pavano was injured a lot before he came to NY and he’s been injured a lot in NY. He’s not doing it to spite you. He’s injury prone. There’s really nothing more to say than that. You can say that he doesn’t try hard enough to get healthy or that he’s faking it, but the “bottom line” (to quote Cap’n Jeter) is that Carl Pavano just gets hurt. “Set back” is the guy’s middle name. It’s what he does.
The hell with Lieber. I’d suggest Farnsworth and a prospect or two for Myers.
Can we dispense with the myth that Cashman was “counting on” Pavano to stay healthy this year? “Counting on” implies that Cashman had nobody in reserve to step in as a no. 4 or 5 starter if Pavano failed to perform. Yet, before the season started, Cashman had Karstens, Rasner, Sanchez, Hughes, Clippard, probably 1 or 2 other minor leaguers, and possibly Roger Clemens all in reserve as replacement starters. He wasn’t “counting on” Pavano to stay healthy. He could AFFORD TO TAKE THE CHANCE that Pavano would not stay healthy, or so any reasonable would have thought.
Also, as to the supposed deals being offered to Cashman pre-season for Pavano, were any of the other players involved ML-ready starting pitchers? If not, how would trading Pavano have alleviated the team’s present starting pitching woes?
I am sorry…..but this should be the last straw with Carla. Give this guy his OUTRIGHT RELEASE today. Good riddance.
As far as Farnsworthless is concerned, if he has to be pampered and have 5 days off in between his appearances, then by all means…make the trade.
Trading Fasrnsworth for Lieber is stupid.
Mr. Vegas –
You took the words right out of my little typing fingers! There was, indeed, a fallback position, if you will. But, Karstens and Wang were hurt right off the bat, so there went plan B. I hate revisionist history.
Still a bad idea, Peter, outside of being strictly a salary dump.
…and yes, not being able to spell Farnsworth is also stupid.
With Pavano, part of Cashman’s thinking had to be “enough is enough.” I mean the Rajah had missed two seasons, you figure he’d give them SOMETHING this year – not just two starts. I can’t fault Cash on the signing – everyone hailed it. He was the best starting pitcher available and about a half-dozen teams wanted him. Watch him miss the entire season (Rick Sutcliffe was right). Next year – I GUARANTEE YOU HE STAYS HEALTHY. He’ll win 15 games too. Why? It’s a contract year. And some team (Rangers? M’s?) will give him another fat contract.
Rocket is NOT coming to the Bronx if the Yankees are mired around .500 or below it. He’ll go to Boston. The Sox clearly have the best team in the AL – they’ve got a big lead in the division. Roger isn’t going to want to play savior for the Yanks. He’d rather go to a team where he can be a part of a great post-season. Sad but true.
I’ve resigned myself – this looks like a snakebit year. Just think of the future with Phil and Wanger at the front of the rotation for the next 6-7 years. Santana will be in pinstripes in ‘09.
Oh my – I’m a Yankee fan… It’s May 3rd and I’m already in wait till next year mode!!!!
1. i’m one of those idiots who believes pavano will help this season . i know , silly me .
2. leiber for worthless would be excellent . phils get what they need , yanks get what they need . yanks might need to pick up some of wortheless’s money but who cares .
3. bottom line is the red sox are the best team in mlb let alone the a.l. they have 3 legit #1’s in thier rotation and papelbon is pretty great . thier line-up seems to get better everyday . defense is lacking but thier pitching is strong .
Speaking of Rick Sutcliff — you gotta believe now that Pavano DID insinuate to him that he’d be out the rest of the season now.
I love that Jon Heyman flat out calls Pavano a FRAUD. He also swears that there are plenty of teammates that neither like nor support him.
Surprising.
Tired of you, Carla. Please go away.
I like the Lieber / Farnsworthless trade idea. We need starting pitching, and I liked the way Lieber produced in 2004 for us, especially in the post season. Gutsy Game 2 of the 2004 LCS against Boston.
“Did anybody outside of Cashman think Pavano was going to give them anything this season?”
I will admit that I delusionally had some faith in him this year.
Lieber isn’t any good anymore. No deal.
I didn’t have any faith in Pavano, but he had zero trade value. What was Cashman supposed to do? The mistake was made years ago, when he signed Pavano in the first place. If Pavano pitched decently for a while, THEN he’d have trade value. Of course, if he did that, he’d have been the team’s best starter.
I sort of want someone to explain why the odds were in favor of Pavano pitching effectively this year? In his career, he has pitched to league average over at least 150 IP only once.
He’s no good.
and if anyone remembers, last season started off slow for Lieber, but he pitched much better in August and Sept at around a 3.5 ERA clip after speaking with his old catcher, Joe Girardi, after a start where the Marlins beat him in late July.
Lieber doesnt miss starts, and will keep this team in the game long enough for the offense to take over.
i’m not saying he specifically is what/who we need, but he is the exact type of number 4 guy this team depserately needs.
Neither team has to take on much cash in the deal, either, because they both make just about the same per season…
and for the Phillies, Farnsworth goes back to the NL East where he had success with the Braves just a couple seasons ago, and they have him under contract for another year to help out that pen, which is bottom 5 in the NL; and with them climbing back into the NL race slowly, they cant afford to have Gordon out for any length of time w/o a replacement option for the back of the pen.
I’d go Farnsworth for Myers instead…I still have no idea why Myers is in the bullpen for the Phillies, he was either there best or second best starter.
Lieber has virtually the same stats this year as Shawn Chacon, remember him?
Just say NO to NL pitchers!!!
(ie Brown, Pavano, Wright, Vazquez, Farnsworthless, etc)
al, you speak very confidently about what Roger will and will not do. Are you his mistress or something? If not, let’s please drop the pretense that you know what’s going on inside his head.
BTW, when Clemens signed with the Astros last year, they were “mired” at .500 (27-27), in third place, seven and a half games behind St. Louis. NY and Boston were tied for first at 31-20.
I doubt very much that team-competitive criteria or even baseball considerations will dictate Roger’s decision. First, he’s already accomplished virtually everything he can accomplish in the game. Pitching half a season, he can can only hope to win another dozen or so games. Another Cy Young would of course be out of the question.
Second, as Roger likes to say, “this ain’t his first rodeo,” and he knows postseason success is pretty much a crapshoot.
I would SPECULATE (because, like you, I do not KNOW) that Roger’s main reason for wanting to play is that it’s a lot of fun. Where would it be the most fun? Presumably, with his friends. Advantage Yankees.
It’s also a lot more fun to win games than not, so he presumably prefers to pitch for the team that offers the best run support. Advantage Yankees.
Ideally, he would like to pitch close to home, with the least impingement upon his lifestyle. Advantage Houston.
He also wants to be paid like the superstar he is, but presumably any of the three teams involved would show him the money. No advantage to any team.
Therefore, even ASSUMING Clemens cares about team competitiveness, and perceives that Boston is the strongest team among the three suitors, this is the only apparent edge held by the Red Sox.
I’m not making any predictions about what Clemens will do. I’m not even sure it would be so much better for the Yankees’ chances if they land him (although I hope they do even as a hedge against an otherwise joyless season). But I definitely feel the Yankees have as good a shot as any team to get him.
Myers is in the pen cause they had 6 starters to start the season, but their bullpen blew like 10 of the first 15 games of the season, or something absurd like that.
total panic move by Charlie Manuel and Co. to keep their jobs, and for the Phils, it’s seemed to stablize things for now.
and there is no way trading Farnsworth nets Myers.
BUT, if the Yankees were amenable to trading Farnsworth and taking on Pat Burrell’s salary, then you might, MIGHT, be able to talk to the Phillies about Brett Myers. (think of it in similar terms to the Saux getting Beckett, but only when they took Mike Lowell’s salary with him).
It’s hard to say what should have been done with Pavano. Surely Cashman understood that he is a horrible injury risk.
I bet that Cashman figured the odds were in favor of getting at least a pair of quality starts out of Pavano, which would make his value rise substantially, before trading him. That was my theory, at least. After all, why trade Pavano in the offseason and get nothing when there’s a decent chance you can unload him in May and get something?
Unfortunately we’re talking about Pavano here. Someone should check under his house for a buried Indian graveyard.
It would be an amazing pickup if the Yanks could get Myers though…he’s a great talent.
You’re probably right about that TurnTwo, but the Phillies would also be dealing from a point of necessity as well.
Forget Lieber, he’s cooked. I’d make a play for Freddy Garcia who’s been a little shaky coming off an injury and might be had cheap.
I hope Pavano gets his friggin’ arm amputated, because that’s the only way Cashman will accept that he f’d up bringing him here. I’m surprised we haven’t seen any stories from Cash’s guys in the press blaming Tampa for the signing. I guess there’s still time though.
“Yeah, I remember 2004, but I also know that it’s 2007 and that Lieber’s 37, got hammered last year in the NL, and most likely would put up a 5.00+ ERA in the AL this year. ”
Althought that’s all true, but a durable 4th or 5th starter pitching for the Yankees with a 5+ ERA is more valuable than the Krazy Kyle’s contributions this year. Lieber has averaged about 6 1/3 innings per start since coming back from TJ surgery in 2004. Don’t you think a pitcher at the back end of the rotation making it into the 7th every game would help the bullpen, and offset the loss of Kyle?
“Igawa is not only cheaper given that luxury tax isn’t paid on the posting fee, but is a great chip to have in a year or two when our pitchers come through in droves. A decent lefty starting pitcher for $4m a yr.”
Really good points.
Stef:
Do you have a link for the Heyman piece? I can never find anything at SI’s website. Thanks.
randyhater –
Pavana was a bad move because he had injury history, but Greddy Garcia, who has been “shaky coming off an injury” would be a good move? Please explain the difference.
*that’s Freddy, not Greddy.
If the Yankees trade Farnsworth for Lieber, it’s not really an outstanding deal for either team. Lieber’s pitch-to-contact approach won’t be nearly as good in the American League, and despite Alex Rodriguez’s massive improvement and Minky’s presence, the infield defense isn’t really that good. The number of grounders pastadivingjeter would be horrifying. But Farnsworth is, well, Farnsworthless, and Lieber might have value as a guy who throws strikes and gets some grounders. Rasner could probably do that, but Joe doesn’t seem to like him much.
Pavano has been an unmitigated disaster. Whether he’s made of glass or unmotivated, I really couldn’t care less. The bottom line is that he’s not been on the mound and giving the Yankees 2 or 3 good starts in return for a 4 year, 40 million dollar contract. Without question, he’s Cashman’s worst blunder. At least Javier Vazquez pitched close to 200 innings, and helped get us one good season out of Randy. Pavano’s been next to useless.
Putting Myers in the bullpen is a perfect demonstration of the panic taking over the Philidelphia organization. This guy, who once he mastered his curveball because their most dominant starter, has a few bad outings and is relegated to setup duties. I know you here about Rivera and other converted starters, but the truth is that a pitcher with Myers potential and repetoire should be in the rotation, where he has much greater value. Most converted starters convert because they don’t have enough pitches to get through a lineup more than once. That was the case with Rivera; his fastball, which eventually morphed into his cutter, had outstanding movement but his slider was subpar and he might as well have not even thrown a changeup. Myers has a good fastball, including a two-seam version, a good curveball, and the makings of a changeup. That’s rotation material. The Phillies’s fans are getting extremely restless, and the team perenially underpeforms. If you want to say calling up Hughes, who Baseball America and Prospectus have been arguing was big league ready at the end of last year was a panic move, then what does this qualify as?
I wasn’t crazy about Lieber when he was here, but if it worked out in our favor (i.e. – maybe a backup catcher thrown in the mix….wink wink nudge nudge), I’d go for it. Because as others have said, I think Krazy Kyle is worht more than just Lieber.
On the Clemens note, doesn’t everybody remember how poorly he and his family were treated when he left Boston? Why would he want to give them another chance? Someone had also mentioned that Roger has a lot of friends with the Yankees, whom he probably wouldn’t want to have to play against if he were’t playing with them. On top of that I would add that Roger has zero ties to any of the current Boston players or staff. I just don’t see any appeal there for him. It’s Houston or NY if he decides to play (which he will).
Didn’t Peter float the Lieber and Chris Coste for Farnsworth in Spring Training?
Doreen,
Garcia’s a horse who’s pitched 200 or more innings in 7 of his 8 years in the bigs. He’s also been a post season lock (6-2 in 9 starts with a 3.11 ERA.)
There was some talk in Chicago that he may have been wearing out, and he’s got a rep for being a little weird, but he’s in a contract year which should guarantee max. effort, while also limiting our long term exposure.
Either way, he’s no Pavano.
If Clemens does want to pitch, and the reason is because he’s not ready to stop pitching, but wants to have fun while doing so, then I think Houston and New York would be where he’d want to go. If he wants a little more assurance of run support, of those two, he goes to New York. If he wants a chance at the postseason, it’s New York or Boston (notwithstanding the Yankees’ current woes). If he wants a sure thing in any case, he stays home.
Whatever Clemens decides to do, I think it is premature to talk about the Yankees’ rotation this year as including Roger. I think any logical conversation about where the Yankees are going as far as pitching really has to stay with the “knowns” right now.
I read in the Star Ledger this morning that an “unidentified source” said the Yankees are looking into trades, but that nothing is available at present. I don’t think they’d want to find themselves in the position of having to give up too much for what is basically a short-term solution.
I have been begging for the Yankees to trade Farnsworth since last June. We already have one reliever that barely pitches (Myers), we don’t need to waste a second roster spot on someont that can never pitch consecutive innings, much less consecutive days.
Thanks, randyhater, for clearing that up for me.
I just went to research his stats.
David wrote: “Has everyone forgotten that in 2004, Lieber led the YANKEES in both ERA and Wins?
Did everyone forget that gem of a game 2 he pitched in the ALCS?
Has everyone forgotten that in 2004, down the stretch, Lieber was our most reliable starter?
He should never had been let go in the first place.”
Small and Chacon pitched well for us too. Should we have kept them?
We just have better options if we wait.
Don’t let the facts get in the way, folks. Farnsworth had ONE bad outing against the Twins and then Torre slammed the door in his face. Since that bad outing, he’s throw 6 innings, given up 2 ER, and struck out 5.
There’s no need for him to be rotting in the bullpen. Especially when Vizcaino is being run out there every night.
I personally would have Bruney as the setup man and Farnsworth/Vizcaino/Proctor rotating in the seventh.
But Lieber? You really want to bring Jon Lieber back here? No, thanks. You can get just as much out of Tyler Clippard. And despite what Peter says, this team is NOT desperate for starting pitching. The whole point of having minor-league pitching depth is to use it. So even thought both Karstens and Hughes got hurt, there are still other guys to go to — Rasner, Clippard, Wright, DeSalvo, Ohlendorf, etc.
Just saw this…Tavarez says they don’t need Clemens? Looks like Julian needs a meeting with Theo. That is unbeleivable.
Maybe Tavarez is employing reverse psychology.
Admittedly, this idea seemed absurd to me initially, but with all the injuries, I gotta say that it would be very enticing to bring Lieber back to the Bronx.
Does anyone feel like NY is cursed this year? Can anyone remember any recent time in which this many Yankee pitchers went down with various injuries to the hamstrings and forearms? It is one after the other, dropping like flies.
Now, Pettitte and Wang are the only bonafied starters in the rotation with Mussina just coming off the DL today. Everyone knows Igawa won’t pitch like he did against Boston last weekend with any consistency.
Damon is having back issues, Abreu looks lost at the plate, Melky really does suck at the plate, Cano isn’t turning any heads. When do we get a breath of fresh air?!
I am not giving up on the Yanks. They have come back too many times for me to think this is going to last all season. On the flip side, it is now May and we can no longer make the “its only April” comments.
Roger Clemens is beginning his decision making process right now. Apart from Andy Pettitte, what reason would he possibly have to join the Yankees? Hell, even he has had hamstring problems in the past so you gotta figure that is frightening him.
The only thing that can save the day for the Yankees right now is to play extremely well against Texas and Seattle for the next couple of weeks. Wang, Pettitte, and Mussina must step it up like never before and provide solid starts of 6 or more innings. The bats need to be removed from the shoulders and the bombers need to put up numbers like they did in Texas on Tuesday.
Then, with any luck, the Rocket can launch some time in late June from launchpad 10451.
Tavarez has said that the Red Saux dont need Clemens…
but think about it, who would Clemens be replacing in the rotation? Julian Tavarez.
so it’s a little bit showing confidence in the staff and the team as constructed, and a little bit of self-preservation, i’m sure.
If Farnsworth can’t pitch back to back days in New York, what makes anybody think he can close (which would require him to pitch back to back days) for another team?
Freddie Garcia? Pitched last night against the Braves and his fastball didn’t top 85 MPH. Didn’t look good at all.
Lieber? Not exactly an appealing option.
If you are going to “brag”, which the Yankees have been doing this year, about their young pitching, then give them the ball and see what they can do.
DeSalvo and Clippard should get the Sunday and Monday starts, IMO. Let’s see what they bring to the table.
We already know what Rasner can do and it looks like he is more of a middleman than a decent starting pitcher at the major league level.
Even Chase Wright, despite his Boston troubles, brings more to the table than Rasner. Before people go nuts over the HR’s Wright gave up, CC Sabathia gave up 3 solo HR’s in the first inning the other night in Cleveland, yet ended up winning the game. Solo home runs usually don’t beat you. The old, Catfish Hunter style of pitching.
Seems to me the Yankees still have some in house options to consider before they start trading for broken down veterans at the end of the line in their careers. Which, are where Garcia and Lieber are at the moment.
They are going to need all the arms they can muster in the bullpen to keep the team afloat. I wouldn’t trade Farnsworth unless the return is a helluva lot better than the Lieber’s and Garcia’s of the world.
Julian Tavarez sucks, stop writing his name in the same sentence as Roger Clemens. Its just not okay.
Catfish always had an interesting first inning and was slow to settle in. The important difference between the Sabathia/Hunter experience and Wright was that Chase’s 4 HRs came later, after he would have presumably “settled in.” Also, while solo HRs usually don’t beat you, that’s provided that they come early or are literally solo jobs and not quartuplets.
Lieber and Garcia are clearly past prime and highly suspect. Any trade of Farnsworth (plus other pieces if necessary) would have to get us a legit innings eater. But we can’t wait much longer for the rotation – - whoever is in it – - to start showing consistency and eating innings.
SJ44- i agree… BC based this offseason on the young pitching crop we had/obtained, and we should let them each have a start or 2 and see how that works out… but what you say is also based on the premise that Farnsworth will positively contribute to the bullpen.
I just have no faith he’ll be able to do that for this team.
This bullpen desperately needs guys who can go multiple innings, which Rasner can do, and do fairly effectively. Id rather seen him come in early in games than see Farnsworth not throw strikes late in games.
I think it would be the stupidest dicesion for the Yankees to give up Farensworth since now he is the best rookie. The fact is the Yankees are hurt now and they have Pettite, Wang, and Mussina is coming back. Hughes is out but he will be back soon. Once they come back Lieber be as usless the ever. I dont want Lieber, he wasnt that great when he was on the Yankees. Taking Farensworth off the Yankees would just hurt the Yankees already reliefers more.
Jake, Clemens has excellent relationships with not only Pettitte, but Posada, Jeter, Torre, and Steinbernner as well. There is a great deal of mutual respect there. Pettitte may have the distinction of bein his close buddy, but he does have more ties to this team than that. Boston can claim none of that.
Even though Wright gave up those home runs, the Yankees still had a two run lead in the 7th, when Proctor spit the bit.
In the grand scheme of things, if you told Torre he would have a 2 run lead in the 7th, at Fenway in a Chase Wright vs Dice-K matchup, he would have gladly taken it.
The “how” it happened is immaterial to me.
With young pitchers, you have to exhibit patience. Unfortunately, the Yankees (and many of their fans) seem to want young guys to be great early.
Absent that, they are “busts”. I don’t blame them since, it seems the owner and manager feel the same way.
However, if you are going to retool this team, and this team needs to be retooled, and think you can do it buying free agent pitching, the name, “Carl Pavano” should be the first thing you think about when pursuing such a dangerous strategy.
The present injury situation is the perfect time for the Yankees to re-examine how they can go forward right now.
This organization has to develop its own pitching. That means the manager, the owner and the fans, are going to have to be a little patient with them. It means sticking with starters a little longer, even if they are struggling.
The one big complaint I have about the Yankees development of pitching is they baby the starters way too much. These guys never learn how to get out of jams and how to pitch. They are just consumed with pitch count.
Its the wrong way to develop pitchers and the fact that Hughes is only the second pitcher in the last 12 years to even look like he can help the parent club should make the Yankees re-examine how they develop young pitching.
JMO but, I have seen enough of Tyler Clippard to believe he could be an adequate #4 or #5 guy in this rotation. Give him 3 starts and see where he is at after those 3 starts.
Let’s just say he can get the job done in that role. They would then have Hughes, Wang and Clippard. Three homegrown pitchers, between the ages of 20-27, to build a staff around.
That’s how you do it. With the Yankees resources, they can fill in the other two roles with veterans.
They just have to be more patient with the young guys. Use this time to change the way you do business. That should be the Yankees mantra right now.
I made a mistake saying Farensworh is there best relifer. I say the Yankees need to call up Sanchez and try harder to get Clemens. The Yankees need a pitcher that would give them 7 innings on a regular basis. That is something Pettite and soon Wang will probably be doing. The Yankees as of now needs to give Igawa anouther chance because he is better then every rookie theyve called up except Hughes. He had perfect control on his curve ball and fastball facing the Red Sox. As soon as they get there starting better I think Kei Igawa will be a worthy relifer.
Kind of hard to callup Sanchez since he out for the season after undergoing Tommy John Surgery.
You don’t think they are trying to get Clemens? They can only do so much. BTW, Roger Clemens is no longer a 7 inning pitcher. If folks want him for that reason, they will be sadly disappointed when he can’t deliver those innings on a consistent basis anymore.
Roger Clemens is not going to up his timetable for anybody. He knows his own body, knows how long its going to take to get ready to pitch and, IMO, also knows he only has about 3 good months of pitching in him per season, at this point of his career.
He isn’t the “cure all” for what ails the team. The 25 guys on the roster simply have to find a way to win games until (or if) reinforcements arrive.
You are insane if you pass on Leiber for Farnsworth. I would do it in a heartbeat. At first I liked Farnsworth b/c he throws hard but dont keep him around if he is going every other day. Do the trade… RIGHT NOW!
Pete – I will readily admit that I was a sucke… er… believer for Carly.
I’m officially off the train.
let’s trade him for a bag of peanuts and a warm beer.
that would be more enjoyable at this point.
goodness.
we have a pitcher playing with a cracked fingernail.
this guy has pitched a handful of times in two years.
of course he’s going to go through some discomfort.
I think they should try and get back some of this contract… using the non-disclosure of the accident, and other issues, as examples of his unwillingness to perform.
I can’t believe I went to bat for this guy.
talk about your disappointment.
– someone who now realizes that the “NO” is most emphasized in “Pavano”
“Small and Chacon pitched well for us too. Should we have kept them?”
We did keep them… until they proved that they weren’t going to be effective in 2006.
Lieber gets hurt about as often as Pavano. Farnsworth should be part of a smart trade not a dumb one.
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