Clemens against Boston on June 1, why not?
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Several people have commented on the blog that Roger Clemens won’t make his comeback at Fenway Park June 1, 2 or 3 because Joe Torre wouldn’t throw him to the wolves like that.
Maybe so. But this is a guy who snuck into Yankee Stadium and made a dramatic announcement from the owner’s box. Somehow I don’t think he shrinks from the big stage.
And 38pitches.com saying, “We don’t need him” might be a little motivation, too.
If Clemens is ready, Clemens will pitch. The Yankees aren’t dropping $4.5 million a month to have him watch those games.
A few other Clemens-related notes: It was very interesting to hear Brian Cashman mention “the Steinbrenner family” instead of just Steinbrenner yesterday. It would seem Hank and Hal Steinbrenner are really in the mix. … Houston GM Tim Purpura said it wouldn’t be appropriate for Clemens to work out at the Class A Lexington Legends facility. Can’t say I disagree with that. But Roger says he is going to Kentucky, so there must be something planned for the next week. … In researching the book that Mark, Sam and I did on Chien-Ming Wang, we learned that Wang really idolizes Clemens. I know it’s not the primary reason, but having Clemens around guys like Wang, Phil Franchise, Brian Bruney and Scott Proctor will help the Yankees moving forward.
Finally, if you’re around a television at 3:30 p.m., check out “Outside the Lines” on ESPN. They’re having me on for a few minutes from Yankee Stadium to talk about the Rocket.
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on Monday, May 7th, 2007 at 11:54 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
Is Joes head still on the chopping block considering how much Clemens said he came back here because of Joe. Or does this signing pretty much secure Joe till the end of this season. I’m more talking about down the road if things get bad which is not the sign now.
Matt Desalvo- SI Yankees vs. Brooklyn Cyclones brawl
http://youtube.com/watch?v=06mS07yVHzc
Youtube Video of Yankees pitcher Matt DeSalvo plunked the Brooklyn Cyclones Andy Wilson in the head. Wilson fell to the ground and the umpire immediately warned DeSalvo that he’d be tossed if he hit another batter.
Wilson started for the mound and the brawl was on. When it was over, 11 players from both teams were ejected, including curent NY Yankee Melky Cabrera
Pete,
Great points re: the mentoring aspect of this signing.
I really think that goes under the radar.
Halliday and Oswalt speak glowingly about the influence Clemens has had on their careers. He is really going be an asset in that regard.
I agree with you about June 1. Roger Clemens is not afraid of the Boston Red Sox. Joe may not want to throw him out there but, if he is ready, he will pitch, IMO.
On the Steinbrenner Family issue: Cashman went out of his way at the end of his interview with Mike and Mike today to thank the entire Steinbrenner Family for allowing him to make this deal. He even interupted Greenberg, who was wrapping up the interview, to make the statement.
Seems to support your contention that the sons are now deeply involved in the family business.
one of the things that the Baseball Tonight crew predicted last night was not only will Torre be here until seasons end now, but that depending upon the results of this season, with his successful recruitment of Clemens, he might have secured himself an extention.
I dont know if I buy into it, but it’s something to think about, which is absurd when you think about where this team was not even a week ago.
Torre won’t get an extension. But I think this situation does prove his value. What the Torre-bashers forget as their barking about the bullpen is that this guy finds a way to keep a massive collection of egos and salaries happy and productive.
You may think that is easy but it is not. Look at all the managers high-payroll teams like the Sox, Mets, Cubs and Dodgers plow through.
I have covered dozens of different teams in different sports over the years, from high school to the highest levels of the pros. The Yankees are the only team where I never heard somebody say something off the record negative about the manager or coach. For all his faults, Joe communicates with the players and treats them like they want to be treated and largely puts them in a position to succeed.
Joe destroyed the career of Tanyon Sturtze, right? Tanyon loves the guy. Loves him.
If you think Clemens automatically comes if somebody different is in that seat, don’t be so sure.
If he does come back for Fenway, which would make sense timetable wise, look to the ESPN Sunday night game. June 3rd, for him to make his triumphant debut… doesnt get any bigger than that stage for a return (and you know how ESPN would blow that way out of proportion).
of course, i hope he makes a start before the series, on May 31st. If Torre didnt want to throw him at Fenway his first start, he could make his return before that series(which in the press conference he said he would like to be back even before the end of the month), plus I’d win $100 from my friend because he bet me Clemens wouldnt throw a MLB pitch before June 1st.
Cashman again this morning on Mike and Mike after the interview took time to thank the Steinbrenner family and singled out Hal and the other son. very intersting that he has chosen to really make a point of mentioning hem time after time
I bet Clemens was really supposed to come out on Saturday but Wang was pitching a perfect game at the 7th iunning stretch and they didn’t want to mess with that.
Speaking of ESPN, how much do you think they’re twitching about a Clemens/Bonds matchup. I think the world may have to stop because of it. I can picture people watching Lifetime or Discovery Channel…”ESPN now forces you to watch Clemens vs. Bonds”
Thanks for the insight on the notes. I’m sure its near impossible to quantify how Clemens impacts pitchers, but it would amazing if Wang could learn some tricks – splitter? – and increase is K rate. He could elevate his game to just a complete whole new level. I’m thinking Brandon Webb-at-his Cy Young- type seasons.
Wow, one weekend sure makes a difference. It took me quite a while to catch up with all the posts. Thanks so much Pete for the excellent coverage. That’s why I come here. Keep up the good work.
It amazes me that people think Clemens wont be/isn’t good for the Yankees. Just amazes me. He will be invaluable for this team, not only for his pitching, but for his presence and for mentoring the youger guys. Cash did a heck of a job getting him here.
hrm, i don’t know about that one marc, because clemens’ flight into ny got in at noon yesterday. so it’s not like he was even in ny on saturday.
Steven A Smith Is fraud Yankees Fan. He’s actually Mets Fan by default. He’s complaining on his radio show about Roger got special treatment from Yankees. I think he should get that special treatment when He won 348 games in his career. thoughts?
Also, Pete, it was very interesting to read this line you wrote: “It is believed the 76-year-old owner told Clemens of his desire to win one more championship before he passed away or gave up control of the team.”
That definitely sounds like something The Boss would say.
What a great read from all the experts out there. One S.I. guy actually said Clemens should have signed with the Red Sox if he wants a ring because they have a 5 1/2 game lead. It was another S.I. guy who earlier in the season said Wang was going to be a disapointment because as the Yankees #1, he always faces the other teams #1. So what is the prerequisite to be a sportswriter at Sports Illustrated? I have a baseball cap, is that enough?
Dl,
Good point, I was just speculating.
If the players don’t care about his perks, why should Steven A. Smith?
Then again, this is the same guy who ripped Hughes for coming out of the game last week. Said he should, “toughed it out”.
If you had a thimble, you could fit all the knowledge Smith has about baseball in it with room to spare.
One of the guys over at Highbrid Nation wrote a very interesting post about Roger Clemems and and the “real” reason he has come back to play for the Yankees. Good Stuff.
ErickVA, ESPN, as it is sched now, is not carrying the Yanks/Giants on Sunday Night Baseball… surprisingly enough.
“Torre won’t get an extension. But I think this situation does prove his value. What the Torre-bashers forget as their barking about the bullpen is that this guy finds a way to keep a massive collection of egos and salaries happy and productive.”
i would guarantee 90% (there are always some people who can NEVER be pleased) of the Torre “bashers” would be perfectly willing to admit that Torre is an excellent clubhouse manager, and that this is his main strength as a manager.
i am willing to give him plenty of credit for attracting both Pettitte and Clemens back to the Bronx.
it is not inconsistent to recognize Torre’s strength at the same time as criticizing him for his tactical skills, which were never a strength and have seemingly gotten even WORSE the last 2-3 years.
i don’t get it, by your logic Pete, you can NEVER criticize Torre for anything, simply b/c the players like him.
i realize you have to take the good with the bad, but so far this season, the bad has cost the Yankees actual wins.
i think as the starting pitching gets healthy and the rotation stabilizes, the bullpen management will become less controversial since his starters will ostensibly be going deeper into ballgames and he will be able to rest guys more. that will take a lot of the heat off of Joe, and the team WILL start winning and climbing back into the race. the complaining about Torre’s tactical moves will become more of a sidenote and harmony will return to Yankee-land. but to pretend that Joe hasn’t made some “curious” (i’m being charitable here) moves so far this season is ignoring a pretty real issue.
Im surprised Smith didn’t open his show with basketball!
yeah, Steven A. Smith is a basketball guy, who they gave a show to because he’s high energy and opinionated… i dont think anyone would really take what he had to say about baseball related issues that seriously.
I didn’t have computer access yesterday so I couldn’t comment then, but I have to confess…am I the only one who’s at least a little worried? Clemen’s final season with the Yankees was only okay (and he flamed out in ALCS Game 7, too). His great stats over the past few years have a lot to do with being in a weak NL, and an especially weak NL Central. Now he’s four years older and coming back to a hard-hitting AL East.
All that said, I understand the positive influence he can have on younger pitchers. I also am painfully aware that there weren’t any other good alternatives out there and don’t blame anyone for wanting this deal done. But I’m still a little skeptical about whether Clemen’s is going to come in and save the season.
Pete, I’ll try to watch you this afternoon!
From what I’ve been told, Smith is roughly the size of an actual thimble.
I don’t want to blow too much smoke up Clemens’ butt but he will make that entire staff better, not just the young guys. There will be spillover to the rest of the team also.
Mussina’s and Pettitte’s seniority just got trumped by an older and better living legend. Whether Mussina hates that or not, I think they both polish their boots and walk taller knowing Clemens is the new leader and one worth following. Clemens presence will take pressure off both, I never saw either as ‘Saviour types’ and I doubt they did either but they were thrust into that role and I was skeered. Maybe they were too.
I see the fans feeling the Saviour role, not the team. The starters are pros and will put it in perspective, I think it adds calm, reassurance and confidence going forward. They know they just became a better team and can play looser.
Its real simple. Do you want Roger Clemens pitching every 5th day or Rasner, Igawa or DeSalvo in that spot?
That’s what it comes down to. If Clemens can’t get the job done, that’s life.
But, I’ll gladly take my chances with him for 18-22 starts and see how things play out than anybody currently on the 40 man roster for his spot in the rotation.
Nobody is saying this move “guarantees” the Yankees anything.
What those of us who are in approval of the move are saying is, it gives them a better chance to get their season on track and compete for playoff spot.
He’s Roger Clemens, folks. Not some hack who can’t play anymore.
We have a lot less to worry about with Clemens than with DeSalvo/Igawa/Rasner, it is not even debatable.
As for the June 1st date, actually two days earlier 5/29 against Toronto is when a 5th starter is needed, that is when he should return, in fact I will go out on a limb and predict it here, Clemens will return on Tuesday 5/29 in Toronto. No point in saving him for two days later and having a kid pitch the 5/29 game. I mean the 6/1 could get rained out. The Red Sox will have to wait until August to get pounded by the rocket.
Skippy – I suppose the response to your question is: who would you have rather they picked up w/o having to make a trade? I don’t disagree that age and a tougher AL are issues but what was the alternative? If he breaks down, at least they didn’t lose a Cano to get him.
I’m personally not hoping Clemens saves the season, so much as just provides a stabilizing force in the rotation… someone who we can count on for 5-6 quality innings every 5 days.
a couple months ago i wouldve argued that bringing up some of our other young pitchers, Igawa included, could do this. But thus far, i think we’ve been able to prove that while Cash has stockpiled pitching talent in the minor leagues, they are MLB ready yet.
Like Cash said, the move allows the Yankees to try and win now, while keeping the talent to develop and build for later.
I agree with the sentiment of most here; I cant understand how reporters and baseball experts would criticize the move. It works out for both sides, almost perfectly. I’ve since chalked up these opinions to needing to create conversation for fans in the viewing population to watch and discuss, as we are doing now.
Clemens is no fool. He knows that a ring is no guarantee with ANY team. He is banking on the reputation of the Yankees to do whatever it takes to put their team in a position to get to, and win, the World Series.
That being said, I believe that the Yankees were there with the money, and they never let Roger forget that they wanted and needed him back. Apparently, I am learning, this is a very important part of the whole process — that a player know that they are wanted/needed in a very demonstrative way, other than money.
I also think that because the Yankees’ calls were becoming more fervent, perhaps that’s when he “amped up” his workouts, knowing that being those 2 weeks ahead of schedule would be helpful to the Yankees. Of course, I’m not in Roger’s head, so maybe not. I’m not dumb, yes, the money matters (a lot), but I do believe the ultimate choice came down to people.
ok I have rethought this, and it may be pushing it but if Clemens could pitch on May 28th, appropriately enough Memorial Day, he would be lined up to face the Sox on the June 3rd Sunday night game at Fenway. Wang would pitch the day before. I sure would be more comfortable if he got one start prior to the Red Sox.
I doubt it will happen, but I am rooting for the June 1st start…..only because Im making my first trip into enemy territory for that game. A Clemens v 38pitches or Dice-K matchup would be great to see.
I have to agree with Jeff NJ. I’m okay with the Yankees starting him against the Sox in Boston, but only if he has a start before then. May 28th or 29th would be perfect. Of course, these games are NOT at Yankee Stadium, and of all places, are in Toronto.
re: Boss’ sons… I noticed that too, and it definitely seemed like Cashman was making a deliberate effort to mention their involvement in the process. I’m sure that has something to do with paving the way for them. Good to see they’re getting more involved (or at least more involved publicly?).
and I agree with those who’ve said Clemens wouldn’t be thrown into any fire, he’d be jumping. I see no better time for him to return to pinstripes than against the sux, PROVIDED that his body and his stuff are ready.
I’m in the boat with the folks that say Clemens is here more as someone to stabilize the rotation and support the youth as well as give some leadership to the team over the season than he is to win 20 games in 4 months. He’s not going to be the 2.30 ERA guy in the AL East. But if he lasts 6 innings and has quality starts every time, I’m backflipping.
Everyone is blasting the bullpen. That’s a casualty of the rotation. If Wang, Moose, Pettitte, Clemes and Hughes goes 6 or 7 every single start, we’ll have one of the better bullpens in the league. Had Bostons pen gone through what we did, they’d be picking their arms up off Fenway.
But let’s be square here, Boston fans are whining about this signing as much as Yankee fans were about the Matsuzaka signing. No one (Sox fans or Yankee fans) can complain about buying a championship anymore. The Sox spent $300 mil last winter so I don’t want to hear any complaining about money.
Personally I hope Hughes stays up. Clemens can do him a lot of good.
Does anybody know who they’re sending down today to make room for DeSalvo?
Rasner
Great Article in regards to the Clemens signing v. Igawa.
http://www.baseballprospectus......cleid=6199
Would love some of your guys’ thoughts on this.
On a seperate note…..
I think yesterday showed that if the Yankees REALLY want somebody, money isn’t going to be an impediment.
Why is that relevent? If ARod opts out, which he will, the Yankees will pay him whatever he wants if they REALLY want him. Which I hope is the case.
sunny615, once he’s healthy, from what he did in Texas and what Torre said yesterday, I’d expect Hughes will stay up. I was thinking last night about the possibilities… I’m not saying this will happen, but it COULD happen that Torre has to decide to sit Moose out of the October rotation if Hughes comes back strong and can dominate more like he did in Texas.
Again, not predicting any such thing, Texas was only 1 game and he’s still a 20 year-old kid. But imagine the possibilities if Hughes comes back and earns a spot over one of those veterans for the playoffs? It is possible.
Even just the possible/probable rotation come July – Wang, Clemens, Pettitte, Mussina, Hughes. Pretty damn good rotation if they can all stay/get healthy.
SJ44, I agree. Only thing I see different is he won’t exercise the clause, he’ll use it as leverage and get an extension from NY, keeping the Texas money in play for a FAT contract, then we can sign Clemens next year for 30M (29 + 1)… (joking about that last part, kinda, but not really..)
Re: Baseball Prospectus article.
I think it’s flawed…they admit that their projections (Clemens adds 1.5 wins vs. Igawa) assume Igawa’s a better pitcher than we’ve seen so far. From all we heard coming into this season, we’re seeing what we’re getting. He’s always pitched up in the zone, as he continues to do now. That he felt good about Friday’s debacle says a lot. Even if he ups his strikeouts (possible as he gets more comfortable with American hitters), I’m not sure he’ll reinvent his entire repertoire (i.e. getting the ball down) to do so.
Clemens may not be a difference-maker in terms of wins, but I’d say he adds several more than 1.5 wins.
Agree 100% that he should start as soon as he is able, whether that’s against the Red Sox or not. What are we paying him a king’s ransom for if not to pitch against the better teams?
As to all the mentoring he’s gonna do, are Hughes, Wang, Proctor and Bruney also flying back to Texas after each of Roger’s starts or will the mentoring be done by e-mail?
Jeff NJ -
You were right the first time. May 29th is a Tuesday, so if he pitched that day, he would be in line to pitch the Sunday June 3rd game. Not a bad scenario.
This is when the seamheads lose me. How can anyone honestly compare Roger Clemens and Kei Igawa and determine (scientifically) the net gain is only 1.5 wins?
That doesn’t make any sense.
If Clemens pitches to a 3.75-4.50 ERA, that’s still HALF of what Igawa has pitched to as a starter. The quality of thoses starts? Not even close.
We haven’t seen anything in Igawa’s starts that would put him into the debate as to whether or not the two are even comparable.
Especially since Clemens numbers have come in major league baseball while Igawa’s positive numbers come from Japan. A slight “difference” in competition, wouldn’t you say?
Again, folks are overestimating Japanese baseball when developing opinions as to the viability of these guys when they come to the states to play.
I am not saying Roger Clemens is going to dominate.
What I am saying is this.
If you are the manager, and your pitching options for the #4 starters are as follows:
Roger Clemens
Kei Igawa
Matt DeSalvo
Darrell Rasner
Carl Pavano
You do you feel comfortable penciling into the slot?
Whether it works or not is an open question.
However, the move itself? A no brainer.
“Clemen’s final season with the Yankees was only okay (and he flamed out in ALCS Game 7, too). ”
ok, but in the ALDS he went 7 IP, 1 ER.
in game 3 of the ALCS he went 6 IP, 2 ER.
in the WS, he went 7 IP, 3 ER.
if he does that 3 out of every 4 turns, the Yanks will be ok.
Thanks skisan, knew something was adding up. Wow that works out perfectly then. The 29th is the next time we need a 5th starter and that lines him up for the Sunday night game against Boston with a start under his belt. Ok can we all agree on that? He is back 5/29.
Thanks skisan, knew something wasn’t adding up. Wow that works out perfectly then. The 29th is the next time we need a 5th starter and that lines him up for the Sunday night game against Boston with a start under his belt. Ok can we all agree on that? He is back 5/29.
Marc, that could be true about the announcement being postponed from Saturday. Then again, they had to sneak him into The Stadium on Sunday. There seems to have been a lot of work involved in getting him there. Maybe they would have announced it anyway if it was supposed to be Saturday.
Interesting article, Bill. It’s obviously tough to project because Igawa and even Rasner are total wild cards. Rasner is capable but inconsistent, who knows if that would get better or worse, probably better. Igawa, showed basically once that he can get it done, but several other times that he can’t, no idea which way he’ll go.
Overall, I think beyond just adding a couple NY wins and subtracting a couple extra Boston wins (by keeping Clemens from going there), I think it comes down to a simple fact – if you can get Clemens, you get him. Igawa or Rasner in October I do not want to see when Clemens is an option. That probably wouldn’t have been the case even without Clemens, assuming a healthy Hughes, but no matter what math/projections you use, a #1 or 2 starter is obviously better than a #5 (or #8 or 9 that Igawa may really be…), even if only for 2/3 of the season
How’s this for a “treatment” on a baseball screen play?
A fatherless child, raised by a mother he loved but who could not replace the father he never had, is almost finished with his own remarkable career, and can choose his exit. He gets a request from an uncompromising, results-oriented father figure named George who is looking for one last ring, and who asked his favorite “son” Roger to get it for him. So he talks with his Uncle Joe and his brothers Jeter and Pettitte who tell him that things are looking bleak down on the farm and that only he can help. He then asks his family if they will let him take this one last challenge. With tears in everyone’s eyes, they tell him to follow his dream.
He wants to be forever associated with the best group of baseball playing men ever assembled, to engage in the athletic war of major league baseball one more time, to prove he was a son worthy of a father he never knew, to prove that he is a good man, in many ways, the best man.
Nah… nobody would believe it.
“Agree 100% that he should start as soon as he is able, whether that’s against the Red Sox or not. What are we paying him a king’s ransom for if not to pitch against the better teams?”
i know this isn’t really your point, which is a good one, but the Yankees won’t actually be paying him anything until he starts pitching.
in other words, every week he takes to get ready, the Yankees “save” $1M.
Pete,
You have a fabulous site, very addictive yet easy to read. Nice pioneering work, hope you are recognized more widely in the non-sports web world.
Can you delve further into the whole ‘Steinbrenner mystery’ – it amuses me when the majority of writers talk about George as if he was still the same man that ran the team a few years back. It’s clear that the man is severely impaired in some way, isn’t it? The Rubenstein quotes are hilariously robotic and predictable.
The most intriguing part of Clemens’ press conference yesterday was the mention of his meeting with George and what George told him. Reading between the lines, it almost sounds like Clemens is privy to the real detail of George’s health. Idle speculation would either lead one to think it’s either (a) serious and worsening mental degradation, e.g., Alzheimer’s or (b) a serious physical problem with no positive end in sight.
My guess is (a), and that George still has moments of lucidity but they are more fleeting now. Hence the high secrecy in allowing people to see him (remember the whole Sheffield episode in Tampa?).
P.S. By most standards, George’s health should not be debated publicly, but the way they are handling it, with the coverup, ‘Rubenstein puppet show’, and the media’s buying the line (Peter excepted), really makes me think of the coverup during Reagan’s last term. Like it or not, the Yankees are in the public domain and millions of people care about this issue.
baseball prospectus:
“Here’s the best argument for the Yankees spending $26 million on Clemens: he was probably going to the Red Sox if they didn’t. So if you’re the Yankees, you haven’t just made a two-win, maybe three-win, improvement; you’ve prevented the Red Sox from doing about the same, given Clemens’ edge over Julian Tavarez or a rehabbing Jon Lester. Taking that into consideration, and the signing is worth four to six wins, which makes it both economically sensible and gives it a greater potential to impact what should be a very good race in the AL East.”
that was a whole lot of statistical analysis to come up with what most of us would guess off the top of our heads.
it sounds like they liked it though. sometimes it’s worth overpaying and this is one of those times.
“He wants to be forever associated with the best group of baseball playing men ever assembled, to engage in the athletic war of major league baseball one more time, to prove he was a son worthy of a father he never knew, to prove that he is a good man, in many ways, the best man. ”
hey, it sounds good to me.
“Here’s the best argument for the Yankees spending $26 million on Clemens: he was probably going to the Red Sox if they didn’t.”
and of course they’re not ACTUALLY spending $26M.
they are spending about $18M. he’s coming for 2/3 of the season. he gets 2/3 of the salary.
I think the BP analysis is flawed in one important area.
They include Igawa’s relief appearance in the numbers. By including that appearance, it skews the numbers and it that makes the overall analysis very flawed.
You have to compare their numbers as starters.
When you do, its not even close. Clemens will be worth more than 1.5 wins than Igawa this season.
Stephen,
They take that into consideration in the article: “If you’re of a mind to suggest that Igawa is, in fact, a 7.00+ ERA pitcher, then the gap between Clemens and him grows, although at that point you need to compare Clemens to Rasner and perhaps Tyler Clippard and other options, because Igawa wouldn’t hold a job at that performance level.”
So they admit argument they are making would be moot. It’s only “flawed” if you predict Igawa to pitch at a level worse than they predict. They predict him to get better.
Perosnally, I was disappointed in Igawa’s last appearance. I really thought he would start to improve after the game he pitched versus the Sox (a win which, many of you may have forgotten, was sorely needed). Obviously he still has work to do to make sure his pitches stay down.
I had the same impression of the BP article. Lots of equivocation, and then “yeah, the deal’s ok.”
It’s a (less than) one-year deal for a pitcher who is a good bet to be effective and healthy. Why not?
on one hand clemens gets paid alot of money so , if its boston or tampa bay clemens should pitch whenever he’s ready . on the other hand maybe its better he gets his feet wet vs a lesser team and not at fenway .
Pete -what happens with the personal services contract he sgned with the Astros? Doe that resume when he finally, if ever, retires?
Hey Pete,
What exactly does it say on the contract about time off. From the press conference I got that he used to work out with the minor leaguers from Houston between starts when he didn´t travel.
Since his contract with the Yanks gives him similar privileges, does it mean he is likely to work out with minor leaguers as well? I see that difficult since AAA is up in Scranton. From what I understood he would mentor not only those with the big league club, but also those below.
Also, I know the Rocket retires and comes back every year. But if he does pitch well, what is the likelyhood for another year? I mean he is likey to get a fair number of wins with the Yanks, who is ahead of him to motivate a comeback and move up futher in the books as far as K’s and Wins?
You’d have to think if he does, it would be with the Yanks again, why would he go to the Sox after not doing it this year? And the Yanks would give him a better chance than Houston next year, I think. I know I’m getting ahead of myself, it would all depend on how he performs.
Espn Insider – Peter Gammons take on Clemens Signing- Simply, Yankees had the cash
http://insider.espn.go.com/esp.....mons_peter
Peter Gammons made some great points in his blog
1)Redsox and Yankees continue focusing on improving the Farm System and having spent a ton on the draft
2) Redsox will promote their top price pitching prospect Clay Bucholtz in August or make a deal before trading deadline
3) Redsox will take their money and reinvest in the draft.
When will the rocket be drug tested? I think Roger gets a pass as the press prefers to zero in on Bonds. Both guys have put up ridiculous numbers in the twilight of their careers.
Big G-
Rocket will be tested right after Shilling’s “bloody” socks.
Does his signing cost the Yankees a draft pick? Or because he was not offered arbitration by Houston, as was the case with New York in his first retirement, there are no picks to be lost?
The Yankees should offer him arbitration at the end of the year just in case he decides to come back again next year and it’s with another team.
Not surprising to hear Purpura’s comments regarding Clemens in KY, but I sure as hell hope he *does* come to Lexington since I already had tickets to see the Legends game on Sunday. Oh BTW – the tickets have a photograph of Roger pitching in a Legends uniform last year on the front of them. Makes you wonder if the Houston organization was banking on him returning to the Astros just a little bit. Plus, July 7th is “Roger Clemens Figurine Giveaway night” – I’ll be there, of course.
Erick, no draft pick because, as you said, they didn’t offer arbitration.
Anyone listening to Mike & Mad Dog?
They are absolutely lambasting the Yankees over signing Clemens. Said he wasn’t worth the money, and that by bending the rules, they’ve done away with “the Yankees way” of doing things.
They also raked Brian Cashman over the coals for Clemens, Igawa and the bench situation. They “gave him a pass” on Pavano. How kind.
I need to shut the television before I get agita!
Pete I have a point here I wish you or the media would comment on….
Now I’m not naive to believe that 95% of what brought clemens to the yankees had to do with money. Yankees needed Clemens, Clemens needed money and a situation to stroke his ego = perfect match. But why is it that when a free agent signing invloves the yankees, most of what you hear is “well what a shock, yankees buy another player”. But say Boston signed Clemens, I really don’t think the money story would be the headline.
I respect Peter Gammons, who deserves his HOF status, but his blog entry really did sound bitter, and the headline was basically what I wrote above. If Boston had signed Clemens, it would of been a heart warming story of how he has returned home to where it all started.
Also last year it was obvious the yankees wanted clemens, maybe not for 28 million, but I’m sure they would have ponied up at least 20 million. Yet it was Houston that won, with a bid for $20 + I believe, which was a record breaking deal at the time. Still, their wasn’t the negative overtone hanging over that story. The negativity was more directed to Clemens for being a merchanary then towards Houston for paying him.
My point is this, I understand why other fans hate the yankees, and I know a lot of yankee fans(as you can see by checking these message boards) don’t make it easy for other people to like us, but can’t the headlines and the talk be about something other than the damn yankees buying another player, and about another chance to watch a HOF pitcher(whether you like him or not). Its a double standard, one I have learned to accept in being a yankee fan, but really its getting old and until the yankees completely bottom out like they did in the early 90’s, I don’t see it ending, no matter how cautious Cashman becomes with spending money.
Long winded point, I apologize, but anyone care to comment?
Mike and the Mad Dog have officially lost their minds. Mike is a fan, I can’t see how any fan couldn’t like the deal. Did they really expect them to require Clemens be with the team at all times even when he is not pitching? The Yankees had to give on that, who cares, you know he’ll do his work, he is a true mercenary, but as a fan you have to like this move. Can’t wait for Michael Kay show at 4.
“When will the rocket be drug tested?”
every year, just like every other player in baseball. do you think Roger is exempt from the testing policy or something?
If Joe Torre, Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera, and Jason Giambi, don’t have a problem with it, and all of them helped recruit Clemens, why would a radio talk show host be so bothered about it?
All of Francesa’s babbling aside, he has been on 24 hour whine watch since they didn’t bring back Bernie, its a no brainer deal for the Yankees.
Clemens is not ruining the team or ruining the team dynamic, as Francesa states. How would he know? Did he talk to Torre? Talk to the players, etc?
Its just nonsense talk. For a guy who dubs himself as a “Yankee know it all”, it doesn’t seem like he knows much about the team.
“I don’t care. I will carry his bags for him if he wants”-Jason Giambi, when asked about Clemens “Family Plan”.
Yeah, sounds like a real team divider to me.
Kay will take the exact opposite approach and say that the Yanks need him. Mike is one of those “fans from Mantle days”
O.K. I’ve had lots of time to absorb the Roger Clemens news. I’ve read all your posts, news articles, and even heard Dan Patrick have a seizure on the radio (I hope that was just an act, cuz he was actually upset).
We don’t know what we’re going to get with Roger Clemens. Well, duh. You don’t know what you’re getting with Igawa. Brilliance? Bomb? From start to start, you don’t really know what you’re going to get from any of the starters on any team.
That’s a lot of money. Well, duh. But it’s not our money! That’s why we love Steinbrenner. He’s going to do what he has to do to put a competitive team on the field.
The knowledge and effect Clemens will have on the younger pitchers on this team will last beyond this season. That is priceless.
The largest effect is what I will call the “Abreu” effect. Remember what happened last year 2/3 of the outfield was decimated by injuries? So what did Stein-Cash do? They called in the calvary. For a team that’s treading water because of injuries just knowing that help is on its way will have an uplifting effect. It was like Christmas at Yankee Stadium yesterday.
So what I’m trying to say that I don’t care what the naysayers write. I’m going to see what happens and enjoy the season.
Why should they pitch Clemens in Boston when he has a low pitch count, They have Igawa the Red Sox Killer.
Criticism of the Clemens signing, what there is of it, seems awfully contrived.
It is mind-bogglingly obvious that, if Roger Clemens wants to pitch for your team and you can afford him, you sign him up.
I’ve come to the conclusion that no matter what the Yankees do, the outside world will ALWAYS put a negative spin on it. With the Dice-K bit it turned from “how could the Sox spend that much” to “how could the Yankees not spend enough” so fast it made your head spin. You know if the Yankees had lost Clemens because they didn’t want to bend the rules, that would have been spun as the Yankees thinking they’re better than everyone else, or whatever. When they spend money, it’s spun as they’re trying to buy a championship; when they don’t spend money, they’re criticized for not doing so. It’s preposterous and sooooo tiring. Let’s face it, the Yankees will always be the team everyone loves to hate. I mean, they wrote a freakin’ Broadway musical about it!
As Yankees fans, we just want to be allowed to enjoy our team.
Great job on OTL, Pete. I’d rather see them give you airtime talking about the Yankees than Olney.
I said here, some time ago, that if Clemens came back… and we won #27… that that would ensure he went into the Hall with a Yankee cap on.
does anybody disagree with that? If I remember correctly, I think Pete called me “nuts” for posting that.
great signing by a team that needed pitching.
now, all we have to do is buy the Cubs, “trade” for Zambrano, and we’re set. Hughes can spend the summer in the minors, and August/September learning from Uncle Roger.
bold prediction? Steinbrenner wanted Rocket to join the team after he officially calls it quits, with Hank and Hal and Co. The “Steinbrenner family” indirectly includes Clemens, too. Maybe even… pitching coach? After the Torre era is over?
(hey, it’s out there. Why I called it a “bold prediction.”)
He will start in late May vs Toronto and skip Boston. No need for all of that drama.
jk, i think i’m with you on that… that way, its not reported as he avoided the saux, and didnt want to pitch in fenway.
i just think back to him saying yesterday he wanted to be back on the field by the end of the month… he can get in 3 starts in the minors and be ready for that last series in Toronto, and i’m going to predict thats what he does.
for what it’s worth, buster olney told Dan Patrick he’s heard from sources that he’ll be back after the Fenway series, for his turn in the rotation between June 5th-10th.
Doreen and O’neill I agree with you guys completely.
The Yankee bashing and hatred is so intrinsec in the sports world that they will criticize any type of move or non move any time.
Be it too much money, too little money or they think they are so classy or whatever it is.
Those maniacs will plot something absolutely evil for his return to Fenway, I really hope that isn’t his first start.
I was talking with a friend of mine today who is a big baseball fan (Cubs, from going to school in Chicago), and she didn’t realize that the Hall made the decision regarding whose hat you wear when inducted. She, like so many other people, thought it was up to the player. Personally, I think it should be up to the player, period.
Anyway, I made the comment to her that if there was anyone out there that could sawyu that thinking to his advantage, it would be Clemens. I honestly believe that he is one of just a few players that could lobby for their own choice and have success with it. Possibly the *only* player.
sawyu = sway. Duh…. fat fingers today.
“… can’t the headlines and the talk be about something other than the damn yankees buying another player?”
i know the yankees are doing their thing when other team’s fans cpmplain about the yankees buying championships. the lack of such complaints the past few months was a cause for concern. the yankees weren’t being the yankees.
it’s a fact that good players like to be paid a lot. the yankees pay a lot because their fans support them and give them tons of cash to do this. there is a nice synergy to the process. it’s not our fault fans in tampa or kansas city don’t support their team and their teams don’t have money to pay for good players. revenue sharing and luxury taxes are anti free market. think what a world we’d be in if all good businesses had to share their money with bad businesses. why people who believe in free enterprise turn socialistic when it comes to baseball is beyond me.
… and all players love it that the yankees(and red sox) drive up all salaries. like any of us, all players like making more money. so when someone says the yankees are buying a championship my answer is” yeah, so what”.
it’s a competition of the best players and not a competition of the best players /dollar spent.
Randy 1 –
Agreed.
I thought the whining was close to being over, though, with all the rash spending this past off-season. I mean just look at Zito, Meche and Lilly, to name just three players. And the Royals, of all teams, went ahead and spent money. The year before it was the Blue Jays on the two “Jay” pitchers, AJ and BJ.
And, the Yankees do not get all their money from the stadium receipts. They are a bona fide brand. The Yankees know how to sell themselves (oh, that doesn’t sound good, but you know what I mean). No one’s telling other teams they can’t do the same thing. Boston and the Mets, for instance, are trying to do the same thing, specifically with their broadcasting interests.
If other teams don’t spend money, or don’t invest, or don’t do whatever it is you need to do, it is not the fault of the Yankees. Last time I looked, and in spite of revenue sharing, we do live in a capitalist society.
The Yankees, and their fans, are incredibly fortunate to have an owner who IS committed to winning, and knows that you have to spend money to make money, and, more times than not, you get what you pay for (of course, there are ALWAYS exceptions, and because you’re talking about an ethereal thing like talent, perhaps that’s even more so in baseball.) If the other teams were AS interested in winning, they’d do something about it other than whining. No one’s stopping them. In fact, the Yankees are an incredible business model.
“does anybody disagree with that? If I remember correctly, I think Pete called me “nutsâ€? for posting that.”
i think the Hall would still choose the Boston cap. it’s the team he is still most connected with and he did win 3 CY’s there.
hmmm –
I think even more importantly, he started his career there (and “hung around” for a while).
I just looked up Clemens’ stats for 2 reasons.
The first is, he spent 13 years in Boston, and counting this year, only 6 with NY. Unless someone donates a lot of money to the HOF or their favorite charity, Clemens will go in a Red Sox, no matter what.
The second, Mike Francesa (whatever) was saying that Clemens was “awful” his last year with the Yankees (2003). Now, playoffs aside, the man was 17-9 with a 3.91 ERA in the American League East. How is that even close to “awful?” Yet no one called in to quarrel with that. In Houston, he had ERAs of 2.98, 1.87, and 2.30. Even if you ADD 2 runs to that ERA, it will be 4.30, which in the AL East these days is not so bad. Plus, the Yankees are certainly capable of scoring the necessary 5 runs to cover. My guess is he’ll be abaout the same as he was, around 4.
When Boston said he was “finished,” he had an ERA of 3.63, for crying out loud !
he won an MVP in Boston too.
if they win the WS this year, the argument does get more interesting, but i think the Hall would still choose Boston.
here’s an interesting argument, if Sheffield gets in, what cap does he wear? Marlins?
Sheffield’s a really interesting dilemma, I think. He’s a mutt (not to be disprespectful). He’s really been around, and had success with an awful lot of teams. BUT, if the rule is the cap is the team you started with, then it has to be the Brewers.
While I realize the Hall is in a difficult position, free agency has really changed things, and they’re going to have to be more flexible.
i wonder if the Hall would just make Sheffield’s cap blank. seems like a simple enough solution.
IF shef would have won the MVP in 2004 and we wouldnt have lost game 4, 5, 6 and 7 of the boston series, he would have gone in as a yankee
Hmmm –
I like that solution.
I was actually thinking, why don’t they just have a HOF cap for everyone? I mean, they list the history of the players, right? Who really, really cares? And I guess, if a player has spent his entire career with one team, then he gets the PRIVILEGE of wearing his team’s cap.
And I guess, if a player has spent his entire career with one team, then he gets the PRIVILEGE of wearing his team’s cap.
Then players like ozzie smith, ryno and others would not wear the cards and cubs hat.
Catfish Hunter doesnt have a logo on his cap, because he couldnt choose between the A’s and the Yanks. In fact, if you go look at Yogi’s hall of plaque, you wont be able to see the interlocking NY.
A player used to be ableto choose which cap he went to the HOF with, but thanks to brilliant (complete hatred for Steinbrenner is what made him do it) Mr. Winfield who didn’t choose the Yankees, the team he was most recognized for having played with, the HOF did away with that and now they choose the baseball cap.
Donnie Baseball –
Okay, what about most years of service?
I have a legitimate question (or two), and this is a great blog where I’m sure someone will have the answer.
When does Clemens start to get paid? I assume that he is no longer working out “on his own.” Otherwise, he’d be risking injury that would jeapordize his $28 million (annualized). So I very much suspect that he is already “on the payroll.” And if he’s not, what protection does he have?
Another question. What’s the story on his “excused absences” when he’s not pitching? Are there provisions in his contract? Will he go on road trips? return to Houston? Everyone seemed to be dancing around this one yesterday….. it’s hard to “mentor” from Texas. (Supposedly, the Astros were going to withdraw that privilege this year because of the hard feelings that it engendered.)
Great blog, you guys….. although I think that the euphoria is a little over the top. But Clemens will help, no question about that.
We visited the HOF in spring or summer of 2001. I’m realizing now that I never looked at the cap on the plaques. I read the inscriptions, and in my mind I associated a particular player with a particular team. Of course, with the older players it was much easier, because they spend most of their careers with one team.
Okay, what about most years of service?
Agreed
“If Clemens is ready, Clemens will pitch. The Yankees aren’t dropping $4.5 million a month to have him watch those games.”
I agree — but nothing is ever set in stone — if there is an option of having him make his first start in Toronto (the series before Boston) or in Chicago (the series after Boston), Torre will not go out of his way to start Clemens in the most hostile environment possible. There is a big different from the surprise and adoration at the stadium yesterday and the venom that will be spewed by Boston’s psycotic fans.
He has a minor league contract for now, I believe he start to get paid when he starts playing in the bigs.
Sox Fan,
I have the same question about his privelleges. In Houston it seems his privelleges allowed him to stay home on road trips that he wasn’t playing in, but he had to go to minor league Houston afilliates and help out.
With the Yanks he should be travelling with the team and be in stadiums for all games on road trips he has to pitch. As far as home games, I believe he has to be there away when he isn’t pitching.
My question is with road trips on which he isn’t slated to pitch. Does his “tutoring” have him goin got Scranton or what does that imply?
I think Sheff would go in with a Marlins cap on, because that’s the team that he won a world championship with.
For that reason, I think Clemens goes in as a Yankee. I know he spent 10 years on the Red Sox, with three Cy’s. Get that. He also spent two and a half years with Toronto, and has one less Cy with them.
I just don’t think it’s just the individual stats that’s taken into account, as silly as that seems. It’s the team stats as well. He’s won two championships with us, and that’s two more than he’s won with Boston. He wins one more, and I think that will have just as much of an effect as his three Cy’s.
I hope he goes in as a Yankee, but who knows if that happens even if we win the WS this year.
Damn Winfield, why couldn’t you just choose the Yankees? There would be no debate going on and Roger would be free to choose the Yanks.
Maybe if he unretires again next season, comes to NY again and we win two consecutive WS?
Pete making ESPN. Whats next? Around the Horn??? PTI??
We knew him before he was famous.
Erick …… Was Winfield the player who chose his HOF cap based on whoever gave him the best monetary inducement? And if it wasn’t Winfield, it was the fact that somebody did it that resulted in the current “mess.” The HOF could no longer trust the players to make a coherent choice (unless you consider a payoff a coherent choice).
That’s why I really don’t care about the cap selection of the present MLB mercenaries. I still enjoy the game (I saw Ted Williams and Mickey mantle play at Fenway), but it’s decidedly different. We’re all rooting for the laundry, which is kind of sad. But it is reality.
Re: Clemens …. let him wear a Yankee hat. He’s the consummate hypocrite, a gun for hire (and even more so than anyone else). No matter where he goes to, or from, it is ALWAYS in the best interest of his family (so he says). He refused the Yankees’ first offer ($22 million) and insisted on getting a higher annual salary than ARod. At that rate, he wants to pitch more, rather than less (surprise, surprise). Cashman had to go back to Steinbrenner because he only had approval for $22 million; Clemens was engaging in extortion, even though he knew that the Yankee deal was ALREADY the best he was going to get (well beyond Houston and Boston).
Sorry for the diatribe, but I hope you can see why it’s hard for me to get warm and fuzzy about Clemens’ wearing a Boston cap in the HOF.
Just read ESPN’s Bill Simmons. He stated that Clemens will be the first player with a dollar sign on his HOF cap. That is funny.
We need Roger Clemens as our starting pitcher besides Wang.
These two are the best we have as Yankee Players. Now, maybe, we can win another World Series, No 27.
that’s the stupidest idea I’ve heard… spoken like a true redsox fan.