Today in The Journal News
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- May
- 12
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Jarrod Washburn was great as Seattle stopped the Yankees 3-0 at Safeco Field.
Brian Cashman is compiling written evidence on Carl Pavano before deciding whether he will have surgery.
Luis Vizcaino is struggling and the Yankees are trying to figure out why.
This entry was posted
on Saturday, May 12th, 2007 at 4:03 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Pete can you give us some details on what would happen if Pav goes for surgery please? Would the Yanks be able to buy out his contract with insurance cash to get his money off the payroll?
If not could the Yanks trade him (with full costs from insurance and a little extra) to a team well under the cap to avoid tax?
If the Yanks don’t get the insurance cover they want so ask him to rehab in an attempt to salvage something from him but Pav insists on surgery what would happen?
*It’s all ’bout da Benjamins*
From Pav’s POV, he’s gett’n paid now and next year, so he needs to get in ready for the Nov-Dec 2008 free agency market.
Gawd. Say 18 months from now he makes a full recovery and shines in workouts, who has the nerve to sign him? Left-hander or not.
My guess, Colorado or Baltimore
Brian: There is no such thing as buying out the contract. He is owed what he is owed and the tax can’t change. It’s just a question of what they could get back from the policy.
As for trading him, why would a team take a player who can’t play or want to help the Yankees avoid paying the luxury tax?
The luxury tax is so wack.
Its *my* money. Its *my* cheese being jacked and fed to Billy Beane. Hands-off *my* beer booty.
So Oakland A’s have a lame cable deal; why come down on us.
Dont hate us because we’re beautiful.
New York for New Yorkers!!
Pavano is right handed.
Béla Lugosi:
pav is a RHP
“who has the nerve to sign him? Left-hander or not.”
OT – Wish Yogi a Happy Birthday today – he’s 82 and one of the greatest Yankees.
Some people are ridiculous. The Yanks score 2 runs in 2 games and now their offense is terrible. Give me a break. Teams go through offensive slumps during a 162 game season. Why not just tip your hat to Washburn? He pitched a great game and has pitched well all year. The Yanks will bounce back the rest of the weekend.
It’s not just what I saw yesterday. Its this feeling I get when I see the Yankees are facing a rookie, or a pitching like Washburn or Weaver, who have been hit around this season by other teams.
I’ll give some credit to Washburn, but he’s not Tom Seaver. For whatever reason, it just seems like the Yankees as a team can never hit the pitchers an offense like theirs is supposed to.
Just a thought. The Red Sox reputation for being strong offensively is grounded in two important areas: (1) Hitting much better in Fenway, and (2) beating up on lousy team’s middle relief. So the overall numbers, while valid, were misleading.
Until last night, the Yankees had played 19 at home and 14 on the road. Also, a disproportionate amount of the Yankee stats come from ARod’s hot start (e.g. who is their second leading HR hitter?).
As with the Red Sox in the past, I wonder if the strength of the Yankee offense is being overrated. Didn’t they light up Washburn in NY? But on the road, a different story.
Obviously, it’s only one game. But the rest of the road trip might establish a pattern. It always did with the Sox.
Sure, the strength of the Yanks offense is overrated. They’ve played 34 games and have score 4 or more runs in 28 of them. 2 of those games not scoring 4 or more are the last 2, hence all the whining about the offense. They’re first in runs, second in avg and second in OBP in all of baseball. Yep, they’re overrated.
And nope, they didn’t light up Washburn in NY. 3 runs in 5 1/3 innings isn’t lit up. Washburn has a 2.64 ERA this year, give the guy some credit.
I dont think anyone is saying they are overrated, but there is no question that with our SP finally, seemingly, turning the corner, this is no time for the bats to go cold.
Matsui, Abreu and Cano need to find their stroke, and this team needs to maintain some level of consistency before they fall too far behind… forget long win streaks, focus on series wins.
TurnTwo said “I dont think anyone is saying they are overrated,”
Brian (Red Sox Fan) said “As with the Red Sox in the past, I wonder if the strength of the Yankee offense is being overrated.”
Hey Pete,
I know some still think its “early” but really, the record seems to be a lot better than how the team’s actually playing. You’re in the locker room, are you getting a vibe that maybe this team won’t actually fire this season? Injuries killed the pitching staff, now that they’re getting some consistent and pitching, the relief corp and the offense goes away. There’s a lot of age on this roster. Cashman’s been trying to fix it on the fly, but when you’ve got players making above $15M a year and having unproductive years or are injury-prone, you’re not going to be able to make any deals to get help in the regular season unless you start dangling guys like Hughes, Tabata and Clippard. And as long as there’s a chance that the Yankees are still in contention for the post season, I don’t see Joe letting up on the bullpen. So Proctor, Vizcaino and Bruney better hope they have a second job to fall back on because they’ll all be out of baseball by about Sept. 15th.
Another team might take him because of the extras I mentioned. Throw in a decent minor league pitcher and an average minor leaguer as well as his salary in full, take back a player to be named later. If they are well under the tax limit there is no penalty to them.
The other team gets a pitcher at no cost to them what so ever. The Yanks save themselves millions in tax. I’m sure most teams won’t want to help the Yanks, but it is every man for himself, and they would be helping themsleves. The main problem would be getting Bud’s stamp on the deal with so much cash involved.
Ah, DC, didnt read the other post closely enough.
BTW when I say buying out the contact I mean what Arizona did with Ortiz. Simply pay him his cash now and be done with him.
Two words for the bad offensive yesterday, *Jet Lag*. Usually there is an off day travelling out to the Far West, not this time. Granted many of the lefty’s are scuffling a bit, and they miss Giambi’s bat, so it was all a perfect storm for a lefty pitcher on his game. Not the end of the world, I repeat, not the end of the world. I still think they can take two of three and win this series.
Poor Glass Carl has to sweat it out before he finds out if/when he is going to have surgery. You know he is eying his next payday right now and wants to get on the road to recovery ASAP.
The question is: who throws guaranteed money at Pavs for ‘09? That contract would be a tough sell to any fanbase.
Whoops, my post pretty much mirrors Dr. Acula’s. So much for original thoughts.
Who gives Pav money in 09? Well Seattle gave Weaver $8m. As if that wasn’t a train wreck waiting to happen. If he hires Boras I reckon Texas will give him a 6 year deal!
Peter, any chance you could stop writing articles about Carla. As far as I’m concerned he is no longer part of this team, he is comic relief. Cashman should just cut him right now and admit his mistake. The Yankees have too many other problems to have to worry about him right now.
I would like to propose a boycott of using the P word, in fact I think we should all completely ignore him from now on. This is the last time I will ever write about him.
who carl pavano? I have long term memory loss.
there is little fire in the yankees unless they get in trouble like losing the seven straight games. when cashman and torre are on the hot seat things seem to get going. there is too much patience and complacency on the team. george used to provide the sense of urgency about winning every day. it’s simply not there in torre or cashman. like last year the yankees will have to get in trouble to get in crisis gear. this is a team that is not self motivated on a daily basis. it takes getting the crap kicked out of it before it reacts. i don’t expect the next 6 weeks to be pretty.
the hot seat that cashman and torre were on ten days ago is heating up again. i wouldn’t be surprised to see this tandem of torre and cashman broken up. girardi isn’t up in the tv booth for nothing. he could move into either job. cashman’s job is not much more secure than torre’s except that teams don’t usually fire gms in mid season.. so far his 100% in control is a dismal failure this year. and don’t think george doesn’t know it.
So what are you doing today in Seattle, Pete?
That’s a curious thought. What if the Yankees were to cut Pavano loose before surgery? Can they do that or do they have to retain him and pay for his surgery? Do his MLBPA benefits pay for the surgery? How does all that work? Is it like a workers comp situation? Wow, now I’m tremendously interested in how all these injuries and surgeries work.
there’s two players who have a little over 1,100 at bats and two full years of mlb service time .one has a lifetime .249 average and the other .310. one just signed a five year $26.5 million contract. one has billy beane as his gm and one has brian cashman. one of these gms has a reputation for paying as little as possible.
hint. it’s not cashman.
going against brian cashman’s present philosophy of waiting until the last moment to extend players, billy beane locked up nick swisher for 5 years. he did this 3-4 years before he had to. he obviously felt he’s saving money by doing this. isn’t billy beane the ultimate “younger and cheaper” gm? what’s going on here?
has he moved on from his 5 year old moneyball philosophy to something a bit different? yes and no. beane hasn’t really changed his philosophy of looking for undervalued bargains, he’s simply reacting to a different market. billy beane has moved on to the new realities of the exploding baseball market.
so who is that other player? that would be robinson cano. oh yeah, he’s also the one with the .310 lifetime average.
if billy beane is signing players ahead of time , doesn’t this tell brian cashman something?
and doesn’t this tell cashman’s supporters something about cashman’s plan?
Nick Swisher and Robby Cano are two different players who play different positions, have different roles on the teams they play on, and play in two different media markets.
The fact that Beane signed Swisher to a boatload of money has nothing to do with what Cashman does with Cano, or Wang.
I would like to invite anyone here to participate in a Roger Clemens Community Projection.
For this, you would predict Clemens’ Games, Games Started, Innings Pitched, Runs, Earned Runs, Hits Allowed, Homeruns Allowed, Walks, Strikeouts, Hits by Pitch, Wins and Losses for the year.
If anyone would like to participate, please do so at my blog.
http://jeteupthemiddle.blogspot.com/
Some of you have done this before for other players, I am hoping to get a larger sample size this time, so come on over and do it.
“The fact that Beane signed Swisher to a boatload of money has nothing to do with what Cashman does with Cano, or Wang.”
you must also think it’s a good idea to buy apple stock after the iphone comes out next month.
what is in that cashman cool aid? it’s amazing the blind loyalty he gets.
its not blind loyalty. its common sense. its called cost certainty for small market teams, something the yankees dont have to worry about.
swisher, if he plays out of his mind, can play himself into a position where oakland cant afford him anymore, even during his arbitration years. this allows them cost certainty on a player through his arbitration years to allow him to develop at a price they can afford him at.
cano and wang, and similar players coming up in the yankees organization have years of arbitration left, so they arent going anywhere, and even when they reach free agency (or get within a year of it) if the yankees feel the need to extend them, they can afford to do so.
but why pay them any more than they have to?
Randy,
Beane has always done this with young players he likes who are about to become arbitration eligible. He has done it with success with players like Tejada, and also got burned as he gave T-Long a deal that ended up being an albatross. It’s a fixed-cost scenario so that you have a long-term budget in place and you don’t get hammered in arbitration if someone has a big year. Players like it too as that cash is guaranteed and not performance based. My guess is that once Robbie and Wang have enough service time to get to arbitration and barring any catastrophic injuries for either of them, Cash will look to lock them up in a similar manner.
I think that you are confusing free agency with arbitration as Cash has years before Wang and Cano hit the open market, so it is not really the last minute for them as you insinuated. They make the league minimum right now. Not sure where your blind loyalty comment came from other than it seems you are eager to bury Cash. Why is that?
Why would anybody pay Cano earlier than they have to? Has anybody watched him play this year.
He has a better chance of playing in Scranton this year than he does getting big money.
Nick Swisher is a more productive player. That’s why he got paid.
If Cano stops swinging at every ball in the dirt he sees, and actually hits with RISP, perhaps he will get paid one day.
At the rate he is going, he will probably be in Scranton by July.
This whole, “Pay everybody big money now” mentality is why the Yankees are an old, dead team.
You don’t pay anybody earlier than you have to. It doesn’t make them better players.
Nick Swisher hit over 30 HR’s and drove in over 100 runs last year. When Robinson Cano does that, let me know.
Its not a question of drinking the Cashman Kool Aid. Its common sense. You don’t just throw money out there to solve all your problems. If that worked, the Yankees wouldn’t be out of the AL East race by May 12, as they are this yr.
You know what you do with Robinson Cano? You see if he does anything this year before you consider paying him. At the same time, you shop him. If you get a deal that improves the team, you trade him and not think twice.
They don’t need an all star second baseman to win titles. They have other needs. Personally, I hope he gets it going a bit and then deal him. He has “dog with fleas” written all over him.
Better he becomes somebody’s else’s problem down the line and try to get something for him before you have to pay him big money and he becomes your problem long term.
He had the reputation as a dog in the minors. Now, its beginning to surface in the majors. Those are guys that you don’t win with in today’s baseball.
If the Yankees can win championships with a second baseman that would hit Keith Olbermann’s mother with throws, it shows second base is not a vital position.
He is the type of guy you move and get more parts to fix what’s broken. Not give him $26 million bucks to swing at balls in the dirt every night.
If Cashman did that, it would be one of his dumbest moves ever.
You want to fix what’s broken with the Yankees? Stop spending stupid money, stop being sentinmental, stop thinking throwing money away will solve all your problems, and start scouting and developing your own talent. That’s the only way they are going to fix this team.
SJ44 cano is homegrown. he is playing terrible but his 2 year track record is pretty damn good. I also would not sign him to a long term contract because at this point it is not neccessary.
But Cano is a very good player and should turn it around….
Patience.. I have been thinking lately and watching the old Yankee games and stuff. The bottom line to what is missing is so basic, they can’t pitch……….Look at the sux they are pitching great, 4 out of 5 days approximately there starter goes 7 innings, the bullpen pitches better and everything is rosy.
the Yanks need there pitching to improve, they need to move Vizciano, and call up Villone or Britton, they need to pray Hughes and Clemens get here soon and the suppose big 3 need to pitch better. When clemens and hughes get back how about making Rasner the long man, he really is an 80 pitch guy and can give you 2 to 4 innings most games……..
They have pitched pretty well the last week-10 days in the rotation.
The problem with this team is, its an offensive-first team. Not the way to construct a winner but, that’s what they are this year. If their offense isn’t good, the entire team suffers.
Right now, Cano, Damon, Abreu, and Matsui are automatic outs. They get little offensive production out of first base, a production position. Some of those guys are so lost, its 50-50 whether they will find it this year. They are old, unathletic and some (like Cano) seem quite disinterested this year.
Cano is homegrown. But, is a dog. You don’t need guys like that on the team. He has been lost since the ALDS last year. He is in a non-important position on a team and definitely is not a $5 million+ a year guy. Second basemen are a dime a dozen. Give me a guy who can field the position and move runners over and that’s enough. You don’t need an all star second baseman to win.
I’ll give you an example. If they moved Cano in the off-season, and got a couple of good players in return, you could sign Mark Loretta for a season to stop gap the position and not miss a beat. That’s an example of what I mean when I say you can fill that position with capable people and not get sucked into paying somebody huge money who doesn’t deserve it.
Cano is a guy if put on the market could fill one or more important needs because other teams will view him as a star. Plus, he isn’t making a lot of money. That makes him the perfect guy to move.
Their pitching, aside from Vizcaino and Henn, has been much better the past two weeks. Their offense, particularly from the left side of the plate, (aside from Giambi) is non-existent.
I just think Cano’s best long term value to this team is being moved to fill other needs. I don’t see him as some indispensible part of anything here. In fact, the last thing I would do is tie him up long term. I don’t see him as a guy you build your future around.
That’s just me. I am sure others can/will disagree.
turn two,rbizzler,sj44-
like cashman you are all living in the past and basing your opinions on a baseball market that no longer exists. what part of “there is an exploding baseball market” don’t you understand?
cashman’s strategy works in a declining market. we’re in an ascending market. prices are going up. cashman is betting on prices going down. they are not.
answer one question please: do you think long term contracts are going up in the next 5 years or do you think they going down?
if you think they are going down then your strategy of waiting makes sense. otherwise if you believe prices are going up then your strategy makes no sense because you’ll be paying more later.
Randy,
Do you think every team in baseball is going to have a $200 million dollar payroll in the next three years? No, they aren’t.
They take certain key positions, pay big at those spots, and fill the rest of their rosters with a mix of veterans (at moderate prices) and younger (cheap) players.
That’s how teams are built today. They just aren’t breaking the bank paying everybody whatever they want.
Even the Red Sox, for all the money they spent on Dice-K, their best addition to the team was a guy they spent $2 million on…..Okajima.
The “new way” of baseball is not just spending in a wild fashion. Its developing your own pitching, fill in with some key free agents, and scout like crazy.
Not just spend at will. Nobody in the game is doing that successfully. Not even Terry Ryan.
I think considering Cano’s streakiness, and Wang’s peripherals, I think it is a perfectly legitimate strategy for Cashman to wait for one more data point (the 2007 season) before extending them to long term contracts.
sj44-
do you think long term contracts are going up in the next 5 years or do you think they going down? it’s a simple question. what’s your answer? up or down?
“Do you think every team in baseball is going to have a $200 million dollar payroll in the next three years? No, they aren’t.
They take certain key positions, pay big at those spots, and fill the rest of their rosters with a mix of veterans (at moderate prices) and younger (cheap) players.”
… and this model of what other teams do is supposed to continue getting the yankees in the postseason every year?
it looks like a plan for making the playoffs sometimes. that’s not for the yankees.
Sj44, I’m glad you realise that we’re gonna disagree.
Damon has been hurt but is starting to get healthy and is starting to produce. Matsui has had his share of problems too but both will finish the season hitting .290.
Abreu is in a slump. It happens. He’ll be fine.
Giambi gets hurt a lot, but as DH he shouldn’t be picking up as many things, hopefully when he gets those new insoles his feet will be fine.
Cano is homegrown, young, cheap and reasonably athletic. These are all positives.
When you complain about the team being old and unathletic here every day and then say dump Cano and sign Loretta. It makes about as much sense as new Coke. And Loretta is a stop gap until who arrives? One of our many many 2nd base prospects? The only decent middle infield prospect we have is Alberto Gonzalez but he is a good defender, very average hitting guy who is probably a replacement for Cairo as a utility guy, not an every day player. If we sign Loretta it will be as a utility guy cos Gonzalez isn’t deemed ready. Or he is a stop gap until we spend twice as much on a free agent 2nd baseman as it would cost to resign Cano.
And who would you trade Cano for? What glaring need are we going to fill by trading a guy that your teams coaches have publicly said is going to turn into a contender for thebatting title every year?
Pitching? Cos we have Wang, Muss, Pettitte and Hughes next year. One of the kids (those are the cheap athletic players we sometimes discuss here) or Igawa will be the 5th guy. Or we will sign a free agent. We have about 100 other kids ready to join the bullpen that will definitiely be biult around Proctor, Bruney and Rivera (who will be back).
1st base? Great idea love it. Definitely a good idea to cos a problem up the middle of your team when you have Minky playing much better, Phillips hitting well again in AAA, and about 100 other options this off season.
Right field? We have the option on Abreu and tons of high level free agents this summer. Tabata is only another year away.
Every other position has somebody we will not / cannot move.
3B – Well ARod will not be leaving. See Cash knows we need him. And resigning these homegrown players (the young ,cheap athletic ones) will allow him to spend what it takes to keep him.
We will resign Cano cos market value wise, even at a huge raise, he will be a bargain. As will our rotation and bullpen in a couple of years. This means Cash will be able to spend what it takes to bring in the odd superstar free agent or to plug gaps mid season. Esp once a few of the big contracts come off the books in a couple of years.
See it is value that GMs go by. It is what Beane lives by. And with Cash now running the show it is what you will see more and more from the Yankees.
Why didnt he trade Pav in the summer? Cos there was no value in it. Why not chase a big bat for 1st base, again value. Don’t always overpay on long term deals for established players. Develop your players. Use your wealth to resign to best of them and to give you the edge in the draft (by being prepared to pay big signing bonuses other teams cant – like with Betances) and in international scouting- like with Montero. That is how you develop a better team spirit, by building from within. It is how you get a better unit. And most of all it is how you get better VALUE.
Randy, on the one hand it seems as though you think that the Yankees should be operating on a more conservative model like the A’s and on the other you advocate spending as much as possible to build an uber-team. Please clarify where you stand.
As for contracts, there is an ebb and flow to them that fluctuates and looking at last offseason, which is what I am sure you are doing, really doesn’t tell the whole story. I am also assuming you think that Cash doesn’t ‘understand’ the market. which is laughable at best.
Long term contracts has always been based on the revenues in the game. When the revenues are good, everybody spends. When they aren’t, they don’t.
Even with that, certain teams don’t have the luxury to tie up players at every position with long term contracts.
In fact, that’s the problem with the Yankees. Too many guys tied up with long term contracts, making too much money to move. It makes the roster completely inflexible to change.
If the “future” was everybody signing everybody to long term contracts, why is it the Yankees can’t move any of their guys with long term contracts? Its because nobody wants them. Nobody wants to tie themselves up with these deals because you lose flexibility.
The problem with a $200 million dollar payroll is you end up with ZERO flexibility to fix it when its broken. Which, weather people want to believe it or not, is where this team is at right now.
They can’t spend another $20 million on a bench. Nobody in baseball is doing that.
The reality is, there are too many bad contracts, and too much money tied up in those contracts. That’s what Cashman is trying to address.
You can’t fix 6 yrs of bad business in one off-season.
Find me a single GM in baseball who would have predicted Cano, Matsui, Damon and Abreu would go 4 weeks and stop hitting? What do you do then? You want to trade all of them? No problem. Who wants them? Nobody wants any of those guys except Cano. Why? Payroll flexibility.
A GM is powerless to do anything when that happens.
Spending more money isn’t the answer. That’s why they are in the boat they are in.
Nobody is saying they have to stop spending money. You just can’t spend it on anybody. You have to pick and choose.
They spend more money than anybody in the game. Nobody comes close. How’s that workin’ out? After tonight, its 8 games out and climbing.
Seems to me, the spend at will strategy needs to change. Unless, of course, folks like watching the team lose every night. Then, I say, “keep spending”.
By the way Randy, i am not living in the past as I was just explaining Beane’s logic to you. You seem to think that Cash is not planning on locking up the young players, what makes you think so? Inside info? Direct line to Big Stein? Or are you just a natural pessimist?
rbizzler-
- i advocate that the yankees spend as much as possible to build the best team possible .
- you say,”I am also assuming you think that Cash doesn’t ‘understand’ the market. which is laughable at best.”
what’s laughable is cashman does things like hire marty miller. the man is no baseball genius.
I wouldn’t assume ARod is back next year. Just because folks say its so, doesn’t make it so. What if doesn’t like the direction the team is going? What if the fans turn on him again? Its not given ARod is coming back next year.
Who do you trade Cano for? How about asking around? What’s the harm in the Yankees asking around? He isn’t untouchable.
He’s a second baseman. Its not a cornerstone position to build a team around. It just isn’t. He is their only marketable asset at this time. And, if he hits .240 this yr, they are stuck with him. His marketability goes out the window.
Suppose they can get a solid #2 or #3 starter and/or one or two can’t miss everyday prospects? Do you make the deal or do you hold onto him? I say, you look at ALL possibilities to improve the team and moving Cano is one of them.
All I am saying is, when you have a team with this many flaws, you do whatever it takes to fix it.
Robinson Cano is a luxury on a playoff calibur team. This isn’t a playoff calibur team. He is not a guy you build a team around. He is an asset to explore moving. Not a franchise player.
Its nice to assume Damon and Abreu will turn it around. However, we don’t know that for a fact.
Let’s say you are correct. They turn it around in, say, 3 weeks.
If they are 10-12 games out by then, does it really matter? At that point, its just stat padding.
Damon is always hurt. Great guy, always hurt. Do you really think he is going to hold up over the next 2+ yrs of his contract? I’d say right now, the odds are extremely long he does. That’s not good from a Yankee perspective.
So, they have to do something to replace him as an everyday CF. He isn’t healthy enough anymore to play the position.
What Abreu does this yr is meaningless because he’s not going to be back next year. That gives them $16 million to play with on the open market. They got a solid second half out of him. That’s more than we could have ever asked for.
I just don’t see the value of a corner OF, who is afraid of the fence, can’t hit for power, takes third strikes down the middle of the plate, and loves to bunt. Not my kind of player.
If you can move Cano for a couple of solid additions, and spend the $16 million wisely, there is no question a “fill in” guy like Loretta helps you more in the long run.
Its how everybody in baseball does business. Why can’t the Yankees adopt this model? Its certainly the more flexible model and certainly better than what they have been doing in recent years.
In fact, the flexible model is how they built the dynasty. Ever since they have spent wildly on the newest, shinest toy on the free agent market, this team has underachieved.
Now its to the point where we are celebrating them when they reach a .500 record. How far the mighty have fallen.
Having all the money in the world is meaningless if you don’t spend it wisely.
The ultimate irony of this season may be that this team may be out of the race by the time Clemens is ready to pitch.
How sad would it by if the greatest contribution Roger makes this year is helping Phil Hughes and helping them play .500 baseball because the rest of the team can’t seem to get out of its own way.
“You seem to think that Cash is not planning on locking up the young players, what makes you think so?”
does he have any locked up? i must have missed that.
“They spend more money than anybody in the game. Nobody comes close. How’s that workin’ out?”
well, i think it’s 12 years in a row in the playoffs.sounds like it’s working pretty well.why change it?
Randy, high payrolls don’t equal championships. If you look at all of the series winners since the last Yankee championship, with the exception of the ‘04 Sox, none of those teams had high payrolls.
rbizzler-
high yankee payrolls equate to making the playoffs 12 years in a row. who wins in the playoffs is mostly who’s hot at the time. 7 game series are too short to identify the best team when there are so many days off and a team doesn’t pitch it’s whole staff.
Not true Randy. The first 6 yrs of the dynasty, they weren’t the highest payroll team in baseball. The last 6 they have been, with declining fortunes each year.
They are #1 again this year. How’s that working out?
Its a team in transition. The transition is just happening faster than most Yankee fans thought it to happen.
Me? I hope it happens faster. Its a bad ballclub, filled with too many dogs, high priced guys on the backside of their careers, and guys who simply can’t play in NY.
If you look at past Yankee history, these are the type of teams that go nowhere for this franchise.
They need payroll flexibility and there is ZERO reason to tie up guys like Cano long term. He isn’t a long term asset.
Wang? If he pitches better, he will get a long term deal because he IS an asset.
Everybody in the world wanted Cashman to tie up Mo in spring training. He chose not to. Looks like he was correct on that call.
The guy doesn’t bat 1.000. No GM, even the great Billy Beane (check out that Tim Hudson deal as an example). But, he has more hits than misses.
His biggest mistake? Trying to win AND rebuild at the same time.
Noble, but can’t be done. This year’s team is a shining example of it.
They have many more assets in the minors than they have had in ten years. However, IMO, this will be a rough season. Its just not a very good ballclub. Too many parts that just haven’t come together. It happens.
However, a couple of smart moves, and its the only rough sesaon in the foreseeable future.
Its just a market correction year for them. Similar to what Boston and Atlanta went through last season.
It even happens to the New York Yankees. That’s just the way baseball works.
Randy, it is a pretty simple formula. Players with 3, 4, and 5 complete years of service time are arbitration eligible, which means that they are still under control of their parent club, in this case the Yankees. A player needs to complete six full years of MLB service before they become eligible for free agency. Cano and Wang have yet to reach the plateau that even triggers arbitration so negotiating long-terms deals with them is a moot point. I guarantee you that if it is a good deal for the Yanks they will sign both of them before they hit the open market. Right now, it is not necessary. Why do you think that it is?
I also never said that he had anyone locked up, but in essence he does b/c Cano and Wang are under the Yanks control for three more years. You seem to think that he isn’t planning on locking them up. Why is that?
“They are #1 again this year. How’s that working out?”
cashman signed only igawa for 51 million over 5 or 6 years while the red sox signed matsuzaka and drew for 180 million or so over 5-6 years. i’d say the yankees didn’t increase their payroll enough to stay ahead on the field.
I also don’t care what the Yankees spend, but contrary to popular belief they actually have a budget. Back-loaded long-term deals kill flexibility (eg Giambi at DH for 20 mil per) and inhibit the team’s ability to make moves in-season.
“Its just a market correction year for them. Similar to what Boston and Atlanta went through last season.
It even happens to the New York Yankees. That’s just the way baseball works”
sj44-
by what boston and atlanta went through last year i assume you mean the yankees not making the playoffs in 2007. nice to see your beliefs come down to accepting throwing away a season.
that makes it easy to understand where you are coming from.
I guarantee you that if it is a good deal for the Yanks they will sign both of them before they hit the open market. Right now, it is not necessary. Why do you think that it is?
salaries went up almost 10% this year. i think this is going to continue for the next 4-5 years. that means salaries are going to go up about 30%. by the time the yankees want to extend cano or wang they’ll have to do it at a much higher salary than they will now.
the yankees can sign them later , but they are going to pay a lot more later than they would now.
I am going to guess that when Randy is talking about “locking up” Wang and Cano he is referring to some of their FA years at reduced rates.
I agree. The Yankees should take away some of their free agent years before they are arbitration eligible.
The Yankees could save a lot of money that way (had they signed Jeter one year earlier than they did, he would have received a contract worth roughly half of the $189 M contract he currently plays with).
That said, it is important to note the players the Yankees should want to sign to 5 or 6 year contracts.
One is a pitcher with injury history (so right away he shouldn’t get 6 years, and probably not 5), and awful peripherals despite his success. He has proven that he can pitch, but he is largely dependent on luck and his fielders since he doesn’t strike anyone out.
One is a second baseman who’s OBP is almost entirely dependent on his batting average and is extraordinarily streaky. As we are witnessing right now, when he struggles, he can do very little to help the team as he can’t even get on base. If he doesn’t bat .300, he won’t get on base 30% of the time.
Both players will not go to arbitration until January. Considering the nature of the players under question, it is perfectly reasonable to want at least one more data point (2007 season) before extending them, to make sure you have a more legitimate sample size and trend. With Wang, I may even wait until after the 2008 season to see how his peripherals continue to play out.
Yes, I would like to see players locked up earlier, but right now, this is a very legitimate strategy that Cashman has regarding two of his young players–especially considering that even if he doesn’t sign them beyond their FA years, they still can’t go anywhere and are under Yankee control.
It is a simple risk v. reward scenario. Hold out now and avoid carrying dead weight on the payroll if someone gets hurt or experiences a decline. Wait and you pay a little more, but have more of an idea what you are going to get. I am working under the assumption that Cash knows what he is doing. Randy believes that Cash is an idiot and doesn’t understand the system and the market. Argument solved.
BTW Randy, assuming that salaries are going to go up 10% each year is not a safe assumption. There is simply no way to predict that.
You are using Dice-K as the basis for your argument? Dice-K has had ZERO to do with the Red Sox run this year.
He is 4-2 with a 5 ERA. They spend $100 million for him. Sounds to me like they overpaid. You can find a lot of guys like that around baseball.
You don’t think Beckett’s 7-0 record, Okajima’s under 1 ERA. Wakefield leading the league in ERA, and Papelbon are a “little more” impactful than Dice-K has been for the Red Sox?
Beckett has an under value $10 million a year contract. Wakefield is making less than Beckett. Okajima is making under $2 million and Papelbon isn’t even making $2 million yet.
Seems to me, what the Red Sox are doing is EXACTLY what I have been talking about in this thread. Using money wisely. Not just spending it blindly.
Cashman isn’t spending enough money for you? He just signed Roger Clemens for $28 million dollars! That’s not enough?
The question isn’t spending your money. Its HOW you spend it.
The money the Red Sox have paid for Dice-K hasn’t done anything for them in the standings. Its the other moves that have impacted them in a greater way.
Jeteupthemiddle,
i agree that one year is reasonable, and i wouldn’t have a problem with cashman waiting one year to extend cano and wang, but i’m very cynical about his intentions.
i think he has a very simplistic plan of waiting on everyone to the last possible moment.
i mean , this is the same guy who gave us marty miller.
I dont believe it SJ44 said something I agree with !!!!
‘In fact, that’s the problem with the Yankees. Too many guys tied up with long term contracts, making too much money to move. It makes the roster completely inflexible to change.’
But SJ that is why we keep guys like Cano. His next contract wont be for 80 – 100m, it will be 20 – 40m. A contract that almost every team in the league could rake on in a trade. Or that the Yanks would love to have. Unless a can’t miss deal is proposed, and I’m talking true stud pitcher here, there is more value in keeping him for years to come.
Movable parts are what Cash needs though, like Cabrera, all our young pitchers, also Igawa who once he turns it around will be great value as a 4th or 5th starter. I’m not saying we should be collecting these guys just to trade them, far from it, but it is good for Cash to have options. The numbers game means that even with lots of cover next year we are going to have too many major league ready pitchers to keep happy.
We are losing more of the unmovable deals every yr and trying to build with more mid level deals for young layers we develop and add the odd high priced vet. Hopefull Jeter, and ARod will be the main vets for the next 5 yrs.
SJ, before I paniced and thought we are too like minded you managed to come out with a few crazy statements that reassured me we think about this years team very differently.
‘The ultimate irony of this season may be that this team may be out of the race by the time Clemens is ready to pitch.’
‘His biggest mistake? Trying to win AND rebuild at the same time.’
Thanks man. I was starting to worry.
“You are using Dice-K as the basis for your argument? Dice-K has had ZERO to do with the Red Sox run this year.”
sj44, are you on crack? look you’ve said you’ve given up on the year. why don’t you let it rest and come back next year.
“BTW Randy, assuming that salaries are going to go up 10% each year is not a safe assumption. There is simply no way to predict that.”
rbizzler-
at least we seem to understand each other’s position. it’s true i’m guessing on increasing salaries. this seems to be the most likely scenario given the revenue pouring into baseball.
look at us on this blog. how many of us have mlb tv and/or mlb extra innings in addition to our cable subscription. baseball is exploding worldwide. revenue streams are increasing so unless the owners figure out a way to keep salaries down they are most likely to go up.
Who cares what he did with Marty Miller. You think he is the first GM to make a mistake?
Theo Espstein fired a bunch of people after he hired them to on and off field positions the past few years. Hell, he fired the pitching coach and hitting coach after last season and all they did was help them win a World Championship.
David Ortiz has said Ron Jackson is the reason why he has become the hitter he is now and that didn’t save him. Theo still canned him.
People get fired from jobs all the time in baseball. You act as if Brian Cashman is the only guy who makes hiring mistakes in baseball.
The “great” Billy Beane goes through manager’s like yesterday’s news, got fleeced from Atlanta in the Hudson deal and traded Jeremy Bonderman. EVERYBODY makes mistakes in this business if you last long enough.
Brian Cashman couldn’t predict, nor plan for, the rash of injuries that hit the team in the first month of the season and the complete dropoff of Robinson Cano, Bobby Abreu and Johnny Damon as offensive players.
There isn’t a GM in baseball that can plan for that type of dropoff. Nobody saw it coming.
Going into the season, on paper, this was the strongest Yankee team in years. They had bullpen depth, better starting pitching with the addition of Pettitte, the belief that Clemens would soon arrive and Phil Hughes was on the cusp.
They had what many people thought was the best everyday offensive lineup in baseball.
It just hasn’t panned out as planned to date. That happens.
Its hard to see what he could have done differently, except big another $30 million dollars on Dice-K. Something, I might add, NO GM in baseball did.
So, the big complaint is not spending over $100 million dollars on an average pitcher or another $100 plus million on Barry Zito, which have made his contract be over $160 million given the Yankees luxury tax implications? That would have been INSANE to do because all he would be doing (besides tying his team up with two more bad deals) is fund his opposition with additional luxury tax funds.
That makes no sense.
If Brian Cashman could have predicted that Damon, Abreu and Cano would stop hitting and become automatic outs, it would easy to plan for it.
But, since he, nor anybody else, could have possibly seen that coming, its pretty hard to blame him for the current state of the team.
Brian, if they are 10+ games out by the time Clemens comes back, do you think this team can still make playoff run?
Mathematically, yes, they can. Realistically, that may be too big a hole for even the Yankees to climb out of. Sometimes, great comebacks don’t always take place.
All I am saying re: Cano is you see what’s out there with him. If he can bring you more in return than he can produce with your team, its wise to move him. If he can’t, he can’t. I am just saying, you can’t make him an “untouchable”.
Cute line Randy, but you still didn’t answer the question. You cling to the belief that the Yankees can just keep spending their way out of their problems. We are seeing they not only can’t do that but its the precise reasons why they have problems in the first place.
They are never going to have your pipedream $300 million dollar payroll. Ain’t happenin’ nor should it.
You think spending $100 million dollars on Dice-K are the reasons why the Red Sox are ahead by 7 1/2 games. He has had no impact and the numbers bear it out.
Spending more isn’t the answer. If it was, the Yankees would be in first place since nobody spends more.
I don’t think its a good team. That’s my opinion. That said, your examples of spending more money couldn’t be more off base when assessing why the Red Sox are winning this year and the numbers bear it out.
In fact, the three guys whom the Red Sox have spent the most money on in the off-season, Dice-K, Lugo and Drew, have been three of the under-performers of the team. Shoots, the “spend as much money as you can” theory to pieces.
None of those guys are the reason the Sox are where they are right now. In fact, you can make a pretty good argument that Alex Cora has won more games for them this year than Lugo or Drew combined. That’s $1.4 million (Cora) vs. $22 million (Lugo and Drew) in salaries this year.
Its not how much you spend, its HOW you spend it.
“Who cares what he did with Marty Miller. You think he is the first GM to make a mistake?” you don’t care because you’ve given up on the year. cashman might have cost the yankees ten games in hiring marty miller.
I’m picking the *Tigers* all the way.
Nice, arbitrary number you have no ability to prove.
Nice try, though.