Wrapping it up from Shea Stadium
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Podcast on May 21, 2007 
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Just finished a story for tomorrow on Tyler Clippard. The way my paper approaches the Subway Series is that we have a writer who regularly sees both teams write the game story. The two beat writers write stories on the clubs they cover and the columnist writes whatever he wants.
It works out well and it’s kind of a break for me in terms of writing on deadline.
Clippard was interesting. He told us about arriving at the game nearly five hours before the first pitch and walking around Shea to get comfortable. He seems like a good kid and he certainly pitched a gem.
Torre said that with Clippard at 95 pitches, they didn’t want to run him out there for the seventh inning.
Here is what David Wright said:
“We had our chance and couldn’t get a couple big hits, and he settled down nicely and threw the ball well. For a young guy to come in that kind of atmosphere and throw strikes and throw all his pitches for strikes, I was impressed. He’s got good stuff. He’s got a live fastball, kind of a herky-jerky motion. He kind of comes at you with a lot of elbows and legs and he was t hrowing strikes. When you’ve got those kind of off-speed pitches with that kind of control, his fastball would sneak in.”
Here is what Clippard said, via some audio:
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Clippard looked good. It’s because we’ve got the depth in our minor league system to make a quality starter like him not the first or 2nd, but, by my count, the 5th rookie to make his debut for us this season that we have a good shot of making the playoffs and perhaps even passing the Sawx.
Blisterboy goes down for the Sawx and who do they call up — essentially, given their lack of injuries thus far, their top major-league ready arm — Gabbard.
Let’s compare Gabbard to Clippard. Over their minor league careers, G gave up 8.47 h/9, and 3.86 bb/9, for a 1.37 whip, and 7.17 k/9; C = 7.56 h/9, 2.98 bb/9, 1.04 whip, 9.47 k/9.
So C effectively gives up a hit less per nine and a bb less per nine, all while k’ing more than 2 more batters per 9.
Oh, and Clip is about 3 years younger.
Who do the Sawx turn to when their 40 year olds, Cheeseburger Schilling and Wake hit the DL in July and August, which they will? Lester of the 1.65 whip last season, before he got sick?
And behind the Wrights, DeSalvos, Hugheses and Clippards who’ve already broken in, we’ve got Kennedy and Joba.
Ty Clippard is the man, i barely remember his DUI a couple years back.
I can see it already – fans giving cashman the credit for getting guys like clippard, Hughes, desalvo, rasner, wright and whoever else we throw in there each day. Let it be clear, cash got two minor league starting pitching prospects this off season. There names are ross ohlendorf and Humberto sanchez. It is pretty obvious how much faith the team has in ohlendorf as five rookie pitchers have taken the ball this yr and none of their names are ross. His line in scranton is a 5.19 era and a 1.76 whip. Oh and sanchez wont be pitching for the next two yrs. Any one not named brian could see major surgery for sanchez coming from a mile away. Sheff has 8 homers and 21 rbis and randy just pitched a gem tonight.
Now, dont get me wrong – Im not saying getting rid of Rj and sheff was a bad move. And certainly getting pettitte back was much needed and clemens was obviously a given. But cashmoney gave away 45 million to kei who is now sucking against single A hitters- 2 earned runs in four innings today. He cut back payroll (for abdsolutely no reaosn as far as I can see in that cutting payroll in no way helps the team) completely ignoring our need for quality bench players. If posada goes down we r in serious trouble. He signed sanchez – a guy who has been injurred eight times at the age of 23 for one of the biggest bats in our lineup in 2004 and 2005. Cash signed mienky becuz we didnt need any offensive production out of first and now we desparately need a quality right handed bat injected into our lineup. He has made more horrid free agent pitching signings than one can count (I have lost track.) He has stated every day throughout this horrible streak how it is completely his responsibility and if any one should get the blame, it should be him. And I for one completely agree. This team has absolutely no accountability any more and someone must take the blame. Why not let it be our Gm who for yrs has had the highest payroll in the game to work with and has only succeeded in making this club preform more and more poorly each yr. Each yr, we go one less round in the playoffs. Not only has Brian’s large free agent signings crashed and burned almost each and every time but his small moves have rarely if ever payed off either. Each yr our starting pitching seems to underpreform more and more. We need a dramatic change and I for one know It is time for Brian to remove his pinstripes. Adios cash money. Have fun in the unemployment line.
dave for someone who calls themself a yankee fan (i’m assuming you are since you are posting here, but never know) u dont know much about cashman and the whole GM thing over the past decade plus. cashman has been the gm since 1998 … but he didn’t officially become the GM until 2005. the boss and his stooges made all the calls from tampa pretty much since he bought the team. it wasn’t until the boss got suspended for a few years that the yankees actually cared about the draft. which is where jeter pettitte and posada came from. and when the boss came back he pretty much made all the signings he wanted to make, you really think cashman wanted to sign womack, lofton, sheffield, hell even trade for johnson ? nope. cashman pleaded to sign vlad instead of sheff, and he wanted to invest money into beltran but instead the boss ordered a trade for johnson.
u said and i quote “I can see it already – fans giving cashman the credit for getting guys like clippard, Hughes, desalvo, rasner, wright and whoever else we throw in there each day. Let it be clear, cash got two minor league starting pitching prospects this off season. There names are ross ohlendorf and Humberto sanchez.” yes i give cashman all the credit in the world for getting rasner, the nationals put him on waivers and cashman swooped him up for nothing.
not many people realize this but hughes was drafted with the astros pick that we recieved for andy pettitte. cashman didn’t want to resign him because he was worried about his elbow. so he let him walk (was it a mistake yes but without losing pettitte there was a small tiny chance to having hughes) now thats a stretch to say cashman gets credit for hughes but my point is this, ever since cashman took over full control of the team operations which was only 2 years ago, the yankees have had the best two drafts they’ve had in decades. look at their farm system its one of the five best in the entire league. last year they drafted some great arms, chamberlain kennedy and bettances. so give the guy a break, he finally gets to do his job that he was hired for almost ten years ago. has he made some terrible trades (brown, vazquez, etc) ya, but i think he has more good than harm.
Wow!
and he even looks younger than his *22 years*
looks like the pitching will keep games close this Aug and Sept. if the hitting becomes consistent, then LOOK OUT.
instead of looking starting pitching, maybe they only need another reliver and a number one or a number two hitter (assuming Abreu remains in a funk and Giambino and Damon remain in the trainer’s room).
dave for someone who calls themself a yankee fan (i’m assuming you are since you are posting here, but never know) u dont know much about cashman and the whole GM thing over the past decade plus. cashman has been the gm since 1998 … but he didn’t officially become the GM until 2005. the boss and his stooges made all the calls from tampa pretty much since he bought the team. it wasn’t until the boss got suspended for a few years that the yankees actually cared about the draft. which is where jeter pettitte and posada came from. and when the boss came back he pretty much made all the signings he wanted to make, you really think cashman wanted to sign womack, lofton, sheffield, hell even trade for johnson ? nope. cashman pleaded to sign vlad instead of sheff, and he wanted to invest money into beltran but instead the boss ordered a trade for johnson.
u said and i quote “I can see it already fans giving cashman the credit for getting guys like clippard, Hughes, desalvo, rasner, wright and whoever else we throw in there each day. Let it be clear, cash got two minor league starting pitching prospects this off season. There names are ross ohlendorf and Humberto sanchez.” yes i give cashman all the credit in the world for getting rasner, the nationals put him on waivers and cashman swooped him up for nothing.
not many people realize this but hughes was drafted with the astros pick that we recieved for andy pettitte. cashman didn’t want to resign him because he was worried about his elbow. so he let him walk (was it a mistake yes but without losing pettitte there was a small tiny chance to having hughes) now thats a stretch to say cashman gets credit for hughes but my point is this, ever since cashman took over full control of the team operations which was only 2 years ago, the yankees have had the best two drafts they’ve had in decades. look at their farm system its one of the five best in the entire league. last year they drafted some great arms, chamberlain kennedy and bettances. so give the guy a break, he finally gets to do his job that he was hired for almost ten years ago. has he made some terrible trades (brown, vazquez, etc) ya, but i think he has more good than harm.
dave. u are so incredibly wrong its not even funny.
where do u think rasner came from ? cashman picked him up off of the waiver wire from the nationals.
u have to remember cash got full control of this team 2 years ago, everything before that was done by the boss.
Ummmmm, for the millionth time, Rasner stinks.
Dave –
I completely agree with your comments regarding Sanchez and Ohlendorf. Especially in the case of Sanchez…any village idiot could have predicted that major arm surgery was in the kid’s future based on the mounting arm troubles he was having in the Tiger’s minor league system. Hopefully the other pitching prospects we got in the Sanchez deal will pan out, because it will be a minor miracle if Sanchez comes back strong from arm surgery and stays that way. (Not to mention that, if he does come back, he’ll be a reliever most likely…because his arm won’t take the strain of pitching 7 innings every time out.)
As for Ohlendorf…Everything I read at the time that deal was being done said that we might have gotten Micah Owings if we were willing to take fewer bodies in exchange for Johnson. Now, if that’s true, then Cashman screwed the pooch on that one…because Owings is a stud in the making. Ohlendorf? All the comments from scouts that I’ve seen say he has mediocre-to-average stuff…certainly not an ace no matter what!
Kei gave up 3 hits and 2 unearned runs in 4 innings in Saturday’s game.
i still think whatever they got for sheffield was a bonus no matter what … they were letting him walk as soon as they traded for abreu … sanchez was high risk high reward, who knows he might come back, if not, and no one else pans out, its a wash because sheffield was not going to be on this team. no matter what. so we got those prospects for “free”
as for ohlendorf, hes a 3-5 at best probably but hes on the DL so hopefully thats the reason for his so so results so far this year. seems like gonzalez will be the main guy in the RJ deal … he’ll be our utility guy for the future … johnson hated NY. he wanted out. we dont know if they could have gotten owings and the dbacks were they only team he would go to willing to take him and that salary. i still like what cashman has done with the draft the past 2 years so u can’t call him a complete waste as a GM
Yankee Fan In Chicago
In all fairness to Gabbard -and this is a Yankee fan writing here- I checked his pitching line in his M.L.B. debut (I think it was his M.L.B. debut yesterday): 5 IP, 6 H, 1 ER. Not bad for a first M.L.B. start or first start for 2007, esp. when he’s essentially just holding down a spot in the rotation until the injured Josh Beckett returns from the d.l. The Red Sox might as well started a healthy, good Beckett yesterday. So minor-league comparisions are nice but what matters is Clippard and Gabbard are even where it counts: The Major Leagues. Gabbard outdueled Tim Hudson who came into yesterday’s game he bombed in 5-1 with a 1.77 ERA.
Both guys had nice first starts to their careers.
The Yankees should’ve kept Randy Johnson and never paid $26M to some Japanese League team just to talk to Kei Igawa then $20M to Igawa himself. Randy would’ve cost the Yankees only
$16M for this year only as opposed to the $46M total the Yankees spent on Igawa who unlike Randy Johnson, is pitching for the Class-A Tampa team. The Yankees would not have been worse for wear keeping Johnson and I could give a fuck if he didn’t get along with the N.Y. media. He wasn’t brought here to do that and you know what? Maybe that cameraman shouldn’t have been practically up his ass with that camera. I mean the guy was practically in Johnson’s face and expecting Johnson to what, be a trained seal and smile into it? And fuck Duke The Puke Castiglione who 1. got his job cuz of Daddy 2. hates the Yankees and 3. deliberately set out to bait Johnson with that annoying cameraman. I’m glad his nasally, droning voice is gone from N.Y. Keep calling L.A. Lakers games, asswipe.
‘Back to Randy the pitcher. The Yankees could’ve traded Randy for alot more than what they got which was/ is quite frankly nothing. Vizcaino is another overpriced batting practice pitcher retread. Ohlendorf sucks so bad like you said (Dave) five guys got the callup to start for the Yankees, but actually make it six now (Hughes, Karstens, Rasner, Wright, DeSalvo, and now Clippard).
Speaking of Klass-A Tampa-wa, I hope Roger Clemens had some choice words for him in private like he had some for a young Curt Schilling when he and Schilling were teammates in Boston early in Schilling’s career. Supposedly Clemens chewed Schilling out for being immature and not taking care of himself and it stuck with Curt. I don’t care if Igawa isn’t like a young Curt attitude-wise, Clemens has to be stern with him cuz who knows with this guy Igawa? I mean he
(Igawa) got shellacked one game and said he thought he pitched well. Are you kidding me?
Bottom line is this Yankees team has to be at least 2 wins better with Johnson remaining for 21-21, not 19-23. Again, who says he couldn’t have been traded during the season and still been traded to Arizona then? What annoys me is people were raving about Micah Owings and Cashman takes Vizcaino and Ohlendorf and I know why: cuz he wanted to get multiple players so he could say he got that for R.J. when in fact he should’ve been happy Arizona wanted R.J. back, took Owings, and passed on the $3M coming to Vizcaino which quite frankly, could’ve been used to sign veteran utility infielder Tony Graffanino or better yet, veteran backup catcher Greg Zaun. Zaun signed with Toronto for 2 years $7M to be their everyday catcher. You think he would’ve still signed with Toronto had the Yanks matched that with $3M not spent on Vizcaino put towards it? No way he would’ve, he would’ve signed with the Yanks to be Posada’s backup. I would for 2 years and $7M, $3.5M/yr. not the usual $600-700K, $800-1M if I’m really good.
Cashman is a fiscal idiot.
Red Sox could also call upon Clay Buchholz come mid July, August. He’s a stud. Michael Bowden, also just promoted to AA, still 20. He’s probably a season away. They have some good prospects in the wings, don’t think differently. Ian Kennedy and Joba Chamberlain haven’t pitched above HighA Tampa themselves.
It wasn’t his first major league start. Gabbard made 7 appearances for the Red Sox last year, 4 of them starts and had an ERA of 3.51 in 25.2 innings of work. He had a high WHIP but most rookies do when they’re called up at first.
It’s almost completely useless to use overall minor league stats because when you do, what a pitcher did 2 or 3 years ago at A matters as much as what kind of a pitcher they currently are. Pitchers develop in the minor league, that’s the point. Their numbers from a couple of years ago are in no way relevant to what kind of a pitcher they could be now in the majors.
The numbers Gabbard and Clippard put up at AAA this year are almost identical.
Gabbard – 39.1 IP, 12 ER, 12 BB, 35 SO
Clippard – 39.2 IP, 12 ER, 17 BB, 41 SO
It doesn’t really sound like you know what you’re talking about anyway Yankee Fan In Chicago but just so you know it’s not likely that Wakefield will be on the DL. He’s in his 15th major league season and he’s been on it one time.
If the Red Sox do really need a pitcher though, they currently have someone you may have heard of. His name’s Clay Buchholz and he’s been one of the best pitcher sin the minors this year. In 39.2 innings of work he has an ERA of 1.82 while walking 7 and striking out 53. Nope, that’s not a typo. He’s striking out over 12 batters per 9 innings pitched. He’s putting up better pitching ratios than Hughes did last year in the minors and if he continues to pitch like this he’ll be considered one of the best pitching prospects in the game.
Pete:
Just wanted to comment that I love the new in-game format. Hopefully others do too and we stick with it.
The pitching has been decent of late. It looks like Abreu is starting up again and so is A-Rod. If Cano can get going along with Giambi, we’ll be clicking on all cylinders.
We just need a few six or seven game winning streaks and we’ll be right back in this. Boston can’t stay as hot as they are for the entire season.
Either way it looks good for you. A strong comeback or the demise of the Yankees makes for good copy and lots of readers!
- KMT
Demise exaggerated
http://www.newsday.com/sports/.....kees-print
Contrary to a report in another newspaper, Roger Clemens didn’t fire Brian McNamee, his longtime personal trainer. McNamee didn’t accompany Clemens to his workouts at the Yankees’ minor-league complex because no players can bring their trainers on team grounds. The two men will continue to work together.
McNamee, like his charges Clemens and Andy Pettitte, was mentioned in a Los Angeles Times report last year concerning Jason Grimsley’s conversation with a federal agent.
The government announced inaccuracies in that report, however, so McNamee, like Clemens and Pettitte, should still be considered innocent until proven guilty.
It’s fair to suspect everyone nowadays, but it’s not fair to condemn anyone without sufficient evidence.
Extra bases
Yankees prospect Humberto Sanchez’s elbow was so damaged, according to a person familiar with the situation, that orthopedist James Andrews removed a tendon from Sanchez’s knee to treat the elbow.
Normally, that tendon comes from the ankle.
Andrews told Sanchez, “You should’ve had this done a year ago,” according to a friend of Sanchez.
Alfonso Soriano, the owner of an eight-year contract and no-trade clause with the Cubs, is ready to move on from his New York days. Soriano is selling the Fort Lee, N.J., home that he still had from his time with the Yankees.
Clippard has better stuff than Kason Gabbard
Looks like we may have a hard time getting Clippard to go back to AAA as well.
In an otherwise gloomy season, it sure is fun to watch the guys we hope will anchor our team for the next ten years get their start. It’s been a while since we’ve been able to say that.
But cashmoney gave away 45 million to kei who is now sucking against single A hitters- 2 earned runs in four innings today.
DAVE:
You’re mistaken. The two runs were unearned. Igawa pitched 4 innings, 3 hits, 2 walks and no earned runs.
Why is Moose pitching on an extra day of rest tomorrow?
“It doesn’t really sound like you know what you’re talking about anyway Yankee Fan In Chicago”
yankee fan in chicago-
mike edelman is a 19 year old diehard red sox fan who writes for a blog on mvn. he is a total red sox troll when he weasels into yankee blogs by appearing reasonable at first, but soon gets obnoxious and abusive. he’s been repremanded at various times from trolling activity on the yankee mvn.
so don’t pay any attention to him. he’s the ultimate red sox troll.
…and mike if you read this ,don’t make me pull out some of your finer mvn-yankees moments to let people know what a jackass you can be.
Marc:
Wang and Moose pitched in a double header last time out. Somebody was getting an extra day’s rest and Torre is more comfortable with Moose getting it. If Wang is too strong the ball stays up and then goes out.
I apologize, but Kason Gabbard is nothing special. Compare all the stats you want, but none of that matters. All you have to do is put on the Red Sox uniform, and you’re good.
For example, Kei Igawa. If the Red Sox have him, he’ll be a stud #1 in their rotation… that’s what happens when you’re on the Sawx.
Before Clay Buchholz had even proven himself in A ball, Peter Gammons was saying he’s the best ever… that’s what happens when you’re on the Sawx. You get your name thrown out their by hall-of-fame (albeit a pathetic one) reporters, and gain recognition for nothing.
Murphydog,
Moose said the reason he pitched poorly last time out was due to an extra day of rest.
here is an interesting question- I know the Yanks have had trouble producing pitchers from their farm system- at least the Yanks do have Wang in recent years. When was the last time the Red Sox produced a product of their farm system who finished in the top 5 in the Cy Young balloting? Or even made an all-star team? I can’t think of one- but maybe I am just a little foggy this morning?
Clemens? Schilling (i think he was a Red Sox farmhand- traded for Mike Boddicker way back when)? Some of you Sox fans help me out.
For all the grief the Yanks get for ‘buying’ championships- the Red Sox are even worse in that regard. Aside from trot nixon- how many players on that 04 team were actual bread through the farm system Red Sox. Nobody ever talks about that.
Sheff and RJ were salary dumps of old, high priced players. Did anyone here want to give these players 2 year contract extensions? I didn’t think so. Cashman did well to get more than a bag of balls for these two.
Marc, good point, Moose is getting the extra day. I assume it was punishment for his being unaccountable for his crappy pitching last time out. ALl you heard from him was “the extra days off messes up my rhythym” and “we can’t seem to get good offense and pitching on the same day” on a day when we pitches terrible. He is not a good teammate and will deservedly be the 4th starter come playoff time.
chazzh, that papelbon guy is pretty good. but your overall point is valid.
i don’t have an answer for this but it seems odd that both francona and torre used papelbon and rivera in non save situations last night to get work after having 2 days and three days off respectively. both threw a lot of pitches. i think 19 for papelbon and high 20′s for rivera. so if either are used tonight,it’s not likely that pitcher would be used a third day in a row if needed.papelbon hasn’t pitched two days in a row in a month. rivera in three weeks.
it seems both managers could have got in an inning in the past few days so their closers would have come into this series ready to go two of the games in a row if necessary.
Hey Pete
Just curious, but there seems to be a lot of chatter about Cashman perusing the Helton possibility. Is there any truth to this rumor?
Not to be redundant but a big series here. We couldnt have set it up better with the pen rested and all 3 top starters going. ANd maybe the bats are finally waking from a slumber.
We can get back in it and cure a lot of ills with 3 good games here.
James hit the nail on the head.
Bucholz may be something special, and Bowden could contribute. I’d say they’re both at least a year away. But of course given the Sawx history of rushing their “prized” prospects to the majors . . . hey whatever happened to Hansen and Delcarmen, those superstars?
Gabbard may have put up decent numbers this season in AAA, but they’re out of whack w. his entire minor league career, Clippard — did I mention he’s 3 years younger? — has been consistent. Meanwhile, I couldn’t care less about Gabbard’s era in Boston last season b/c he had a poor 1.56 whip and barely k’d 5 per 9 while doing it. Like Lester’s own poor peripherals, this will catch up to him in the bigs.
Meanwhile, in 2 years our starting rotation will be Wang, Hughes, Clippard, Kennedy, and Joba, with Betances in the bullpen getting his inninings in before bumping someone in ’10.
(Notice that the Sawx troll didn’t note that the aging Wake’s 1 time on the dl was last season . . .)
“Just curious, but there seems to be a lot of chatter about Cashman perusing the Helton possibility.”
when this came up this off-season, Helton was very vocal that he would only waive his NTC for 3 teams:
Cardinals
Braves
Red Sox
i don’t see why his position would have changed after 2 months.
SI- Tom Verducci- Short-sighted plan
QUOTE
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
Seeing the Braves at the top of the standing this year reminds me how potent a combination John Schuerholz and Bobby Cox have been over the years. Are they the best GM-manager combination in baseball? And what other twosome is even close?
– Andrew, Vancouver, Wash.
You’d have to say they are the best because they’ve done well with mixing in young players and trades year after year. After that? I like Minnesota’s Terry Ryan and Ron Gardenhire, Milwaukee’s Doug Melvin and Ned Yost, Boston’s Theo Epstein and Terry Francona, Detroit’s Dave Dombrowski and Jim Leyland, and Omar Minaya and Willie Randolph with the Mets. I’ll leave the Yankees’ tandem of Brian Cashman and Joe Torre out despite the titles only because Cashman has been a true GM (running the daily operations with almost full authority over the Tampa faction) for just about two years (not long enough), and his track record there is either incomplete or checkered.
So Verducci leave out Torre and Cashman as best GM-Manager combination in baseball, yet I love how Verducci picks Francona and Theo over Torre and Cashman..
Redsox spends money as well.. Matsuzaka, JD Drew and Julio Lugo. Theo made made a mistake signing Matt Clement.. Drafting Craig Hansen who was bust..
What Helton’s contract look like? I know he’s signed for a couple more years, for a pretty big chunk of change…
He was very vocal about being dealt before Spring Training, or never, and obviously we know how that turned out. I dont anticipate anything coming from said rumors, especially when you consider he’s been tied to several other teams, including the Tigers and Angels, who each have room in their payroll to absorb his salary and very solid chips to send back Colorado’s way.
I also get all the minor league info and I always shake my head at how high the sux talent is rated..
the sox pro roster homegrown includes pedroia, and no one else really.
yeah they draft great!!!!!!!!!!varitek trade, lowell trade, ortiz trade. manny FA, shill trade, etc..
the sox trolls are laughable……ohlendorf has been hurt lower back, do not right him off yet, Cox will be back next year and whelan(shefff)trade has good upside….
TurnTwo,
Helton’s contract looks like a terrifying beast. He is owed over $90 million through 2012 (including his buyout).
I had hoped the Sox would deal for him because he would wear out his welcome fast, and the Sox would be left with an ok first baseman at megastar prices for five years.
Stuart, what about Papelbon, Youkilis, Delcarmen?? Plus there is more around the corner. Just because we are Yankee fans there’s no reason to be delusional about the quality of the Red Sox farm system.
cardinals? odd choice. But for some reason, a lot of people are still voicing that Helton is a possiblity for the Yanks. Dunno why. But if it’s true, then his position on the NTC is probably ammendable.
marc:
Roger that about Moose not liking an extra days’s rest.
I was quoting Torre from today’s sportspages, he had to give one of the two pitchers from the double header an extra days’ rest and he chose Moose. Joe didn’t say this was because the results are worse for Wang with an extra day. But it’s true that Wang leaves the sinker up when he’s too strong. If Wang’s sinker doesn’t work, he hasn’t got a lot to fall back on. Moose has a few more pitches he can battle with.
Joe knows Moose as well as anybody. This is not a Torre mistake, it just is what happens after a double header.
Never hope that the Sawx sign someone who was once good… Because even though he is average now, he’ll be back to a superstar if they get him.
Papelbon – his best minor league years were with a low 2 ERA; his worst was a high 6 ERA. All of a sudden, he comes up and posts a 0.91 ERA as the closer? Not only is this way below his career ERA in the minors, but he WASN’T EVEN STARTING! Doesn’t this show you that they can get any loser to come up and perform above their ability?
They could have TJ Beam, and he’d be an allstar closer (with some help from the umps, like the rest get).
“But for some reason, a lot of people are still voicing that Helton is a possiblity for the Yanks. ”
this is mostly because a lot of Yankee fans and some of the media in the NYC feel that the Yankees are entitled to whatever player they want, no matter what the facts are.
Helton seemed pretty anti-NYC in the spring.
I’m also not advocating it, just asking if Helton to Yanks is any way believeable. Also, does anyone know how he rates as a defender? Better than Minky? Worse?
Helton, FYI:
“9-Year worth 141.5M- will make in 2003- 10.6M, in 2004- 11.6M, in 2005-12.6M, in 2006- 16.6M, in 2007-16.6M, in 2008- 16.6M. in 2009-16.6M, in 2010-16.6M, in 2011- 19.1M and in 2012- Team option 23M or 4.6M buyout-”
unless the Rockies were picking up a nice chunk of change, i wouldn’t touch this contract with a 10 foot pole.
with luxury tax, the 2012 buyout, and the pro-rated portion of 2007 salary, you’d be looking at $115M for 4 1/2 seasons.
this should end the discussion on homegrown.. the comparison is laughable..
yanks; melky, cano, jeter, posada, mariano,wang, all the rookie pitchers(hughes, clippard, desalvo,wright, etc..)..
sux; pedroia, gabbard, and nothing..
really to argue with people over this shows how delusional the sux trolls are….
the sux minor league system over the last 10 years has sucked, above is the prood…yada yada yada……….
what a JOKE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh, thanks for reminding me about Kevin Youkilis. Another example of what I’m trying to show you. The most homeruns he hit in the minors was 8. In ’06 he hit 13… and he’s already got 6 this year. How does a loser like him going from 8 HR’s in the minors, to 13? Off better pitching?
Come on!
Based on BP’s FRAR and FRAA, Helton is a much better fielder than Mientkiewicz, although his defense is declining. Bear in mind that BP’s defensive stats have hated Minky for years and still rate him as a slightly below average fielder.
I was wrong to call Helton “ok” – he’s still very good both as a hitter and fielder. I just can’t get over his contract. He’s 33 and owed $90 million through 2012 – there must be a better solution at first.
“I’m also not advocating it, just asking if Helton to Yanks is any way believeable. Also, does anyone know how he rates as a defender? Better than Minky? Worse?”
i wasn’t directing that at you, sorry if it seemed that way.
Helton is a very good defender.
“In ‘06 he hit 13… and he’s already got 6 this year. How does a loser like him going from 8 HR’s in the minors, to 13? Off better pitching?”
most players add power as they age and peak offensively around 27-29. he’s 28.
For what its worth, Helton is a multiple gold glove winner, and more recently than Mientkiewicz.
Helton is raking again, after a down season last year due to nagging injuries and illness. I see him similar to Bobby Abreu; while he’s had decent power numbers, he’s lost a lot of his power (prob due to his back issues). So while you’re paying for his power of the past, you’re getting a glorified average and doubles hitter. You might think that with the short porch, he could see more consistent power numbers again, but they shouldnt bet on it.
considering our offense is sputtering, and we’re getting minimal offense from our 1st basemen, Helton’s fat average would sit very nicely in that 5-6-7 hole, where we wouldnt need his power numbers necessarily. Helton would also allow the team to eliminate the 1B platoon, and by opening up a roster spot, maybe bring in a more dynamic player to come off the bench.
but, we already have a heavy left-handed lineup, and while they are all professional hitters who over their careers have hit lefty pitching well, we’ve been neutralized this season and i dont think Cashman would bring in another lefty bat to this lineup.
Helton is a fine player, but that contract is worse than Giambi’s. No way the Yankees whould get saddled with it. Way better younger options in the offseason.
SI- Tom Verducci- Short-sighted plan
QUOTE
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
I do not understand all the hype around Roger Clemens returning to the Yankees. The maximum number of games that he will start will be 25. Of those we can expect that with him pitching well the Yankees will win about 18 — without him the Yankees would still probably win 13 of those games (slightly over .500). Is five wins really worth $25 million? Will this really make such a huge difference to the Yankees’ season? Especially when, based on the past, he will not be a big innings-eater?
– Chaim Gelfand, Moreshet
Don’t even try to make the money work. It doesn’t. I’m going to say Clemens makes 22 starts and he wins 11 of them. Maybe the team is 14-8 in those starts. With Kei Igawa or somebody else making them, they probably go 10-12. That means Clemens is worth four more wins. Is that worth a prorated $28 million? Hard to justify. But I would venture to guess that the Yankees, if they make the playoffs, won’t be getting a playoff spot by more than four wins. So every one of those wins will be needed — and even then it might not be enough.
Seeing the Braves at the top of the standing this year reminds me how potent a combination John Schuerholz and Bobby Cox have been over the years. Are they the best GM-manager combination in baseball? And what other twosome is even close?
– Andrew, Vancouver, Wash.
You’d have to say they are the best because they’ve done well with mixing in young players and trades year after year. After that? I like Minnesota’s Terry Ryan and Ron Gardenhire, Milwaukee’s Doug Melvin and Ned Yost, Boston’s Theo Epstein and Terry Francona, Detroit’s Dave Dombrowski and Jim Leyland, and Omar Minaya and Willie Randolph with the Mets. I’ll leave the Yankees’ tandem of Brian Cashman and Joe Torre out despite the titles only because Cashman has been a true GM (running the daily operations with almost full authority over the Tampa faction) for just about two years (not long enough), and his track record there is either incomplete or checkered.
So Verducci leaves Torre and Cashman as best GM-Manager combination in baseball, yet I love how Verducci picks Francona and Theo over Torre and Cashman..
Redsox spends money as well.. Matsuzaka, JD Drew and Julio Lugo. Theo made made a mistake signing Matt Clement.. Drafting Craig Hansen who was bust..
it would have to be a perfect storm kind of scenerio. IF Colorado picked up half the contract, and IF Colorado would take back players who don’t necesarily fit on our roster as constructed, or a combo of 2nd tier prospects (basically, not giving them much in return) for alleviating them of the financial burden his contract will be when they try and sign younger, more productive players like Matt Holliday, then I think its worth at least mild consideration.
>> Helton is a fine player, but that contract is worse than Giambi’s. No way the Yankees whould get saddled with it. Way better younger options in the offseason. >>
I guess that all depends on what happens with Giambi, re: the ‘stuff’.
Don’t forget the mile-high effect as well. Helton’s HR production would drop just as a by-product of playing at a normal elevation.
Did scientists clone a sheep few years back?
Name one player or pitcher from Yankees would you like to clone?
I think it’s possible to have two Hughes.
Forget Helton ..the Rockies are not just trying to dump Helton’s but they want a major league ready player(hiiter) and a highly rated prospect pitcher in return.
according to spring training rumors, they were going to take an expiring major league contract (Lowell) and some bullpen pieces from Boston for him, as long as they took a portion of the salary.
thats not really much.
marc and murphydog –
i know that moose was complaining a lot about getting thrown off his rhythm after the rainout, but i think it had more to do with the anticipation of pitching the day before. if you remember that white sox game, the officials kept on pushing back the time until it was finally postponed until the next day. so moose had to get warmed up, sit down, warm up again, sit down and finally not pitch at all, only to have to go through that routine the next morning. i think he’ll be better this time around because he knew he was getting that extra day of rest.
Who is the friendliest player in baseball?
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
Note the top part, this was a vote cast to 400+ MLB players
Who can say that Helton wouldn’t look good in this lineup? He’d instantly improve the depth and his glove is very solid at 1b. I don’t think it would take much to get him considering his contract isnt the best in baseball.
The Sox and the Yanks are becoming well equipped on the farm. Both have had great drafts the past 2 yrs.
Other teams cant be hapyp because that means this run by those 2 will continue on and on.
The two have become dominant without major farm help. When they finally do???
They both realized they can use their resources in the draft and the latin market.
The Rockies are in an awful position with Helton. They owe him way too much for way too long, he’s too old, and his no-trade clause severely limits his market. So they’re absolutely going to take a lousy deal and eat a good chunk of his contract, because simply keeping him is even worse. These things happen when bad teams make massive financial commitments to a single player – just look at ARod, who’s a lot more valuable than Helton.
Even the Yankees have to be careful with salary dumps, though, because while it can afford players that most teams can’t, it’s still stuck with any contracts it picks up. Say Helton was willing to play for the Yankees and we acquired him for spare parts and the Rockies agreed to pay $30 million of the $90 million he is owed through 2012 -in other words, we made an absolute killing on the deal. We’d still be gambling a lot of money over several years on whether Helton could maintain his production in his mid 30s outside of Coors. I liked the Igawa gamble, and look how that turned out. Big-money contracts should go with sure things, and Helton’s no sure thing.
Why would you want to clone a 20 yr old who has won 1 game?
Wouldnt you want to clone maybe the greatest player ever A Rod?
Or the greatest closer of all time?
Or the most clutch SS??
Or the best starter since 1950 in Clemens???
Heltons hitting in the 390 range and his career avg is in the 330 range. COmbined with a Gold Glove at 1b.
We need production at 1b.
Could get him for cheap.
Guy has never been in a pennant race. He’d be even more energized. Ala Abreu last yr.
Whats the downside? Who cares about the money?
Will it effect anything the Yanks do???
No.
With the Rangers lounging in last place, is there any possiblity of obtaining Texieria? Wonder what the cost would be?
I would have to imagine Teixeira is going to cost a whole lot more than a player like Helton would… Texas needs young pitching, so go from there… and how much of that from our system are you willing to give up?
Does this lineup need another LH hitter and another bad contract?
Who, exactly are the Yankees going to give up for Todd Helton? Some of their young pitchers which, right now, are the only positive things in the organization? I wouldn’t even this deal.
At some point, this team needs to back off taking on bad contracts for limited players. They have a roster full of them as it is.
Helton solves nothing that’s wrong with this team. He’s not a RH hitter, he isn’t young, he isn’t cheap, and he can’t pitch.
He is the wrong fit and, thankfully, wants no part of NY.
If this team is going to get “fixed” at all, its got to come from the guys on the roster. I see no reason to stack up more bad contracts and trade good young talent, to salvage this season. It would be 80′s type of Yankees baseball business and it would produce the same putrid results.
Jake, we can’t get Helton for “cheap.” He’s going to cost well over $12 million a year even in an ideal scenario.
Helton would undeniably be a huge upgrade at first this season, and probably next season. That’s why going after him is not a stupid idea (assuming it’s even possible). But remember, if we acquire him, we’ve got him through 2011. Do you want Teixeira in 2009? I do, and having Helton makes getting Teixeira a lot tougher. Getting Helton makes the Yankees a lot less flexible in case Teixeira or any other quality 1B becomes available.
Then there’s the simple fact that, if you take Helton out of Coors and factor in his age, it seems pretty likely that he will be badly overpaid even with a discount. It’s not the Yankees can’t afford to spend a lot, it’s that their payroll is finite (and the luxury tax funds the other 29 teams) and Helton’s contract requires a huge commitment to a player who almost certainly will be a problem for us in the near future.
honestly – the only pitchers I would pass would be ohlendorf, and desalvo voluntarily. Maybe Clippard and Wright in a pinch (but not both). While impressive in thier outings, neither pitcher regularly has a velocity that tops 90 and relies on a lot of command to paint corners. They’re both a lot like Moose, that if he’s not on, he’s going to get hit around. But overall – no more than two pitchers and a minor league bat not named Tabata. Phillips? Melky? Gonzalez maybe?
Phillips/Melky, DeSalvo, and Ohelendorf.
These are dreamland trade ideas. They aren’t going to get Todd Helton and, if they did, it would cost them the type of players the Yankees can’t afford to lose.
He has an awful contract to boot. Makes no sense at all.
When the Yankees stop being the human wasteland for bad contracts, you can begin entertaining logical trade ideas.
Until then, unless you want the team to keep losing, the last thing any Yankee fan should want is another bad contracts to muck up the waters.
Its one of the reasons why they are in their current position to begin with.
Someone put the details of Helton’s contract up, I know it was a 9 year $141.5M deal through 2011. So basically we would have him for 4.5 years from ages 34 to 38.5. Guess that’s not too old to play 1st, but sure would be happier to get a young Tino like guy to build around.
I high proce indeed, but this is why I’m not Cashman (thankfully).
Plus Tex is still young (mid to late 20′s?) but most of the pitchers I named would be back of the rotation starters so, I dunno.
Also, I’m not saying the rangers would take such a package either – maybe cash considerations (like some money off Arod’s contract perhaps?)
And if you want an example of what happens when you make a huge commitment to a player who is likely to decline, look no farther than Giambi, who’s owed $47 million through 2009. Giambi isn’t just costing us a lot of money – his inability to stay healthy while playing first hurts us by relegating him to DH and leaving us without a decent everday 1B.
proce = pr*i*ce
sorry.
Helton? I would say our problems are not first base. We chose to have a better defensive option there, and less production, bc our 1-8 hitters can reasonably be expected to produce the runs we need. Now, about 3 of those 8 have been in somewhat of a slump lately, which magnifies total lack of production, of which our 1B has been a victim now too. Remember Joe’s words before the season? “we have above-average production from our middle infield, so we can afford to lose some at 1B”. Minky and Phelps are a bit victims of three other slumping guys (Have our 1B hit so bad? So much worse than we expected from them? I think not). So really, Helton? That’s not exactly getting younger, or risk-free, or cheap…
The Rockies turned down the Red Sox request of Lowell (an all star), Hansen and Bucholtz for Helton.
You think the Yankees are going to be able to give up marginal prospects AND get him to waive his no trade AND take on that bad contract, given the Yankees luxury tax implications?
In addition, they are getting another LH hitter, closer to 35 than 25. That’s a bad deal on so many levels its not funny.
Forget Todd Helton and think smaller.
Like, finding a decent righty bat off the bench and a backup catcher before they kill Jorge by the all star break.
Giambi was a George signing. So hopefully, that type of dealing ended last year.
Todd Helton’s contract (courtesy of http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com)
9 years/$141.5M (2003-11), plus $23M 2012 club option
03:$10.6M, 04:$11.6M, 05:$12.6M, 06-10:$16.6M/year, 11:$19.1M, 12:$23M club option ($4.6M buyout)
Helton may exercise “out� clause after 2007 & leave as free agent
full no-trade clause
award bonus: $25,000 for All Star selection
SJ44, maybe the package I mentioned earlier would appeal to the braves for Salty? Weak I’m sure, but never hurts to ask.
Braves already fitted Salty with a 1B mitt, and designated our ol’ buddy Craig Wilson for assignment.
“The Rockies turned down the Red Sox request of Lowell (an all star), Hansen and Bucholtz for Helton.
You think the Yankees are going to be able to give up marginal prospects AND get him to waive his no trade AND take on that bad contract, given the Yankees luxury tax implications?”
i don’t know if the Sox would have offered Bucholtz, but
your overall point is spot on though.
what people are also forgetting is that during the off-season, Helton was coming off a very bad season by his standards.
he is now having an awesome season.
his trade value has done nothing but INCREASE since the Sox couldn’t get it done with their offer.
that means the Rockies are going to include less cash or want better players than in the Sox talks.
SJ:
I think you nailed it. Helton ain’t the guy for us.
Youkilis is a trade not homegrown…
Papelbon is my mistake.. Delcarmen is in the minors…
As I stated 2 hours ago until now the red sux homegrown talent has been basically nonexistent I think 2 guys on there roster were drafted by them 2 GUYS, what a joke.
Good news Colin Cowherd, Heyman, and the rest say it is over the Yanks are done, the division is definitley lost and the Yanks have an outside chance at the wildcard, lets close up the blog we have no chance, the experts said so…..
I laugh these guys write and talk about this for a living but are so clueless…no wonder we have sill posts about trading for Helton(It will never happen and should never happen)….
So in summary the epert sux front office have 2 players on the big vlub hoe grown; papelbon and pedroia and the yanks have; cano, cabrera, mariano, jeter, posada, wang, and the youg arms..
yeah give theo, bill james, and peter gammons a raise they are just so smart…….
The Saux never had Bucholtz in their offer… it was reported as Lowell, Tavares, and either Delcarmen or Hansen, for Helton, along with money to offset the contract.
rats.
I think it’s fine to think about dealing from strength and believe it or not, young pitching is now a strength. I mean package of DeSalvo, Chase Wright, and Farnsworth could land just about anyone. And with the newest crop of young pitchers Kennedy, Joba, Delances moving up the ranks and healthy Humberto and Ohlendorf, next years backups are already in the system so trading mid level pitching prospects later in the year would scare no one on this board.
Helton however, is not the answer. We need to think smaller, like a Ty Wigginton type. A guy who could play first or third (in case we need a new 3b next year) who can mash and come cheap.
What’s your predictions tonight for Wang’s?
Wakefield will bounce back from horrendous start against Tigers. He gave up 5 runs.
Ty Wigginton? blegh. why not kick the tires with Pittsburgh on Ryan Doumit?
the yankees could turn this whole thing around with a sweep of the red sox.the pitching is lined up and the offense has perked up. tyler clippard helped the yankees steal one yesterday they weren’t likey to win. inspirational wins can be built on. the yankees have their chance right now to win tonight and get the momentum going in their favor.
sj44- where have you been?
You know what the Yankees should do right now? Nothing.
That’s right, nothing. Well, I take that back. I would DFA Vizcaino and call up Britton. That’s the only move I would make right now.
Clemens will be with the team within 10 days. Clippard can pitch in the 5 hole in the rotation. They have a lineup of all stars (at least that’s what everyday says).
The rotation will be: Clemens, Wang, Pettitte, Moose and Clippard. Don’t expect Hughes until July at the earliest.
That’s a good enough rotation to compete in the AL. They haven’t hit for the better part of 4 weeks. If they can’t hit, then there is nothing they can do about that until next year. Its not like they have a ton of options right now.
Play it out with the team you have and if its not good enough by Mid-July, you use the next two weeks to find a market for guys who won’t be back next year and try and fill some pieces for the future.
To take on more money (which DOES make a difference. It limits your future options), more older guys, more bad fits, to salvage a season with a flawed team is not the way to go.
Here is the way I see the Yankees. An old, flawed team, with too many guys on the back ends of their careers, and too many guys who are having career worst seasons to date. Those teams rarely win titles and are prone to season long troubles. As we are seeing with this team.
They also have a handful of contracts (Giambi, Damon and Farnsworth, for example) that are too large vs. the production they are getting. That makes them unattractive to other teams.
If they get within 5 of the WC by Mid-July, you try and supplement the bench and that’s it. Forget the East. They aren’t winning the East. No big moves, no giving up on younger arms (the real strength of this organization) and see how it goes.
If they are 10+ out by Mid-July, you sell at the deadline and re-group for 2008. EVERY team, even the Yankees, have seasons like this. The key is to not compound it and mess up your future with dumb trades.
That would be GM Malpractice.
Its a 180 million dollar payroll full of guys who are underachieving. When that happens, you can’t blow everybody out right away. You just have to live with it and hope it turns around. If it doesn’t, some of these issues will take care of themselves.
Abreu will be gone after this season. ARod? If they don’t sign him, this is a 95+ loss team. Instead of wasting money on Todd Helton, I would use the money to re-sign ARod.
Damon and Giambi. JMO but, regardless of their contractual situations, I think only one of them will be back next year and will be the fulltime DH. I have a feeling the Yankees are serious about ridding themselves of Giambi. Somehow, someway, I think its going to happen after this season.
You have young pitchers up and down the organization who could contribute or be used in trades for that “special” type of players. That isn’t a Todd Helton.
You have a guy like Ichiro who is a free agent next year, who wants to go back to playing RF. He would be GREAT in NY.
They have options after the season that are far more attractive than looking at guys like Helton.
They just have to play it out right now, show some pride, and try and string some wins together. If they can’t do that, I see no reason to help this team this year. Long term, it isn’t worth it.
“I mean package of DeSalvo, Chase Wright, and Farnsworth could land just about anyone.”
methinks you are overrating this package a bit.
for example, the Rangers would laugh at this package for Teixiera.
DeSalvo and Wright are B/C level prospects and Farnsworth is an overpaid set up guy.
I have the perfect trade idea. We trade Igawa and Pavano and some how get Teixeira, a Molina brother, and Alex Cintron to be our new utility guy. Oh what the heck, we can throw in Humberto Sanchez as well, and get Beltran in return to play right field. There, I solved all the Yankees problems.
I’m calling a historic 31 game winning streak. In fact, I’m guaranteeing it.
SJ:
I’m on board for Ichiro, either RF or CF. But would he come to NY?
Randy,
Went to watch Tampa and Charleston play for a few games. Going to see Joba Chamberlain pitch tomorrow night for Tampa.
Another young bullpen arm to watch for the Yankees: David Robertson in Charleston. The guy has an ERA under 1 and is unhittable. Throws 93-95 with a nasty slider. He was Alabama’s closer last year, told everybody he was coming back for his senior year, yet the Yankees still drafted him.
Gave him 400K and he signed. He’s not long for the South Atlantic League.
DeSalvo, Farnsworth and Wright can get the Yankees “anything they want”? Come on, you can’t be serious.
An 8th inning guy with an ERA of over 5 in his two years as a Yankee, who has retired the side in order TWICE this season, a journeyman rookie, who was DFA’ed last year, and a AA kid who gave up 4 HR’s in a row to the Red Sox are going to get the Yankees “anything they want”? No, they aren’t.
Here is what teams want from the Yankees in terms of their younger players: Hughes, Jose Tabata, Austin Jackson, Robertson, Jeff Marquez, Joba Chamberlain and Ian Kennedy.
You want to start giving up those guys (which I don’t), then you make deals. Not the ol, “I’ll give you my marginal guys, you give me all stars in return”. That’s not happening.
I wouldn’t be critiquing the Red Sox too much. Theo kicked Cashman’s butt this off-season and the results are pretty clear so far.
Forget Dice-K. How do you miss on Okajima, Matsui’s teammate in Japan, who wanted to play for the Yankees, and would have cost them less than 2 million bucks? How do you miss him?
Right now, You put him in as the 8th inning guy on the Yankees, and they have 5-6 more wins.
That move alone could decide things, let alone the other things the Sox did this off-season.
When you are 10-+ out of first in Mid-May, I wouldn’t talk too much smack right now. The words seem pretty hollow at this point.
I don’t want Ichiro at all. I like him as a player, but if you ask me, I think a power hitting outfielder might be a better fit.
murph,
Good question.
You have Vlad and Matthews in Anaheim so, that knocks him out there. I would be surprised if went to the NL.
The rumor is, although he is good friends with Dice-K, he doesn’t like playing in Fenway Park.
He has always liked playing in New York.
RF or CF will be available to him. I guess a lot will have to do with who the manager is, makeup of the team, etc.
But, he seems to be craving a bigger stage of he would have already re-signed with the Mariners. They offered a lot of money and he turned them down.
Of all the guys on the market next year, he is the guy the Yankees need, IMO.
Guys like Ichiro limit team-wide hitting slumps because they can do more than just hit the ball out of the ballpark.
Plus, a team looking to re-tool with young pitching (like the Yankees) can use his defense. He saves runs everyday.
I am so confident of the young pitchers in the Yankees organization that, if they re-sign ARod, and give Ichiro whatever he wants, this team is back stronger than ever next year.
That’s assuming Abreu isn’t back. Which, I believe will be the case.
Good point about Okajima, weren’t we looking for a left handed releiver all winter? And yet somehow this guy gets overlooked? Someone messed up.
That’s the problem with this team. Not enough versatility in the order.
They can get power in other places. They need speed, athleticism and better defense. That’s what wins games, especially in the post-season.
That’s how they built a dynasty.
sj44 PRETTY GOOD POSTS. oKAJIMA HAS BEEN great. His #’s in Japan were not close to this, what is the story on his success??He was not that highly touted….
I agree small moves would be all I would do, I also agree if they can the Yanks will rid themselves of Giambi the oppitamy of the over priced fading 1 dimensional player they have wasted years on..
Even though I think Giambi can still hit if he stays on the field he of course is overpaid. He has less then 100 AB’s so far this yr….
I do not think they are done this year. I think they have strted rookies in 20 of the 41 games so far….
they need more K’s from there starters(ie Clemens and Hughes).. I agree with Britton getting a chance how about Bruney to replace Farnsworth in the 8th, Bruney use to close(not well), is young, throws hard, and appears fearless????
sj44-
good job scouting. that’s some good first hand info to have.
murphydog-
ichiro has the kind of body that lasts into the late 30′s. ironically speed in the wiry guys like lofton and finley seems to still be there at 40 even.
i’d go for ichiro too. great arm. really annoying player for other teams because of the distraction factor, but seattle is doing well by their standards so it’d be hard to shake him loose early.
the Mets are really good. they have so much versatility. great speed, good D,great defensive range, good power, great pen, and good not dominating starters, with a good bench, and a really aggresive mamanger…
Don’t get me wrong good starting pitching (power pitching especiallY) dominates everything but the mets have a really good mix..Man Rick Peterson deserves a raise……..
Last I checked, the season doesn’t end in late May and it’s only May 21st now. There’s still a whole lot of baseball left to play — a lot of wins and losses still ready to be inserted in MLB standings.
Before we all crown Okajima THE signing of the offseason, let’s remember that date again. At this time last year, Mike Lowell looked to be having a huge bounce-back year and on the verge of an AllStar knod. How did his second half turn out?
To that point, Ron Villone was the Okajima of the 2006 Yanks. Again, how did his season end up?
It’s way early to be coming to conclusions about players signings and results. If the Yanks sweep the Sox this week then suddenly the season, the AL East and the Wild Card look drastically different.
I think Stuart’s hit on the point on Okajima – there was nothing – absolutely nothing – in his body of work to suggest this kind of success
Now look at the Yankee pen candidates going into the season:
Mo
Farnsworth
Proctor
Bruney
Myers
Britton
Henn
Villone
Veras (surgery on elbow, 60 day DL)
Beam (injured oblique)
Cox (TJ surgery during spring training)
Whatever you want to say about Farnsworth, his post All Star 2006 numbers were great.
Villone was solid til he was overused in 2006
Now look at Okajima’s numbers in Japan:
http://www.japaneseballplayers.....d=hokajima
And now let me tell you he tops out at 87 mph with his FB and he’s 32… and the Yomiuri Giants let him go.
Explain by a means other than 20/20 hindsight how this was a great signing.
This is like arguing Alex Cora vs Miguel Cairo.
These things cannot be explained – as much as we want to ‘explain’ everything.
Before anyone actually puts any credence in anything that Colin Cowherd or John Heyman have to say, here’s a little stat to remembert:
In this exact date of last year (5/21/06), the Minnesota Twins were 19-25 and 10.5 games out of first place in what was arguably the toughest division in MLB (Detroit/Chisox/Cleveland). SOUND FAMILIAR???
The Twins ended the 2006 season with a 96-66 and an AL Central Division crown!
’nuff said.
although i generally think he is overrated offensively, i wouldn’t mind signing Ichiro, since he is an ABSOLUTE vacuum in the OF.
you could play him in CF, Damon in LF, and Melky in RF. you would have 3 CFs in the OF which would help the pitching staff immensely.
that would involve clearing the DH spot for Matsui and going after a RH 1Bman. or teaching Matsui how to play 1B.
or playing him in RF and keeping Melky on the bench for another year.
but i wouldn’t move Ichiro back to RF. he’s too good of an OFer to “waste” him in RF.
Big Al very valid points.. I have not given up.. If the ycan increase there K’s from starters which should happen it will help with there limited D range.
I think the O will turn it around no way Abreu finishes the yr. with a sub 300 OBP and slugging %. No way.
ALso cano is a knucklehead but he can hit and will.. Giambi may be able to play with the orthottics and if he can play he will perform fine…
The Minnesota example from last year was great.. they called up Liriano, Baker, and I think Garza so in the season they improved there pitching just like the Yanks are especially if Hughes can get back…..
I am convinced(No I am not an expert) that if Hughes get’s healthy he will be a very good starter a legit #3 type results from a 20 yr old on his way to being a #1…
If they could get a decent offensive backup catcher and remove Vizciano(lost confidence, the NY thing again) from the pen I also think that will help on the margins….
It is tru there minor leagues are limited for offensive young guys ready to play in the big league’s but there pitching depth is real solid sepecially considering at least 5 injuries already…
I dont know if Ichiro makes sense for this team. Because Damon would be good in left. Matsui in right? Ok possible. But they would have no power coming from the OF.
They would have to get a 1b who could hit the ball out.
But think about a pitching dealing with Ichiro, Damon, Jeter 1-2-3.
Vizcaino right now is a mop up guy. Let him sort his issues before we DFA him. Its not like hes pitching in close games or late innings. They obviously saw something in him early if Torre was going to make him the 8th inning guy.
Let it play out a little. Talent doesnt just go away. And you never have enough pitching options. See Yanks 2007 starters.
stuart-
rick petersen is probably the most progressive pitching coach in the major leagues. even though the mets still have pitching injuries ,they are ahead of the curve for taking care of pitchers. he did goof on recommending making the kazmir/zambrano trade.
the mets are also doing a lot better job at diversity in the front office , manager and coaches level.
…the mets are one of the few teams that has a licensed physical therapist on the conditioning staff. tha yankees don’t have one.
i’m a yankee fan , but the mets have the better organizational model right now.
the yankees will have to address their organizational problems in the off season if they are going to stay on top.
Can Okajima pitch say half a season before we make him out to be Mariano let alone Mike Stanton?
The guy throws in the 80′s with a herky delivery. Once guys see him the second and third time things may be a touch different for him.
The Mets also have the most minor league guys getting nabbed for juice. Is that part of their great operational model?
They’ve had one good yr and a good start this yr. That doesnt make them have a better model than the Yanks. or the Cardinals. or the Sox. Or the Angels. Or Twins. or the A’s.
It takes consistentcy. Not just buying the highest priced free agents. Beltran, Pedro, Glavine, Wagner.
Thats not exactly a prime operational model.
everyone keeps forgetting pettitte in the homegrown list
SJ:
With Nancy Drew in Boston I think we can scratch Ichiro off Theo’s list.
Randy -
I assume by ‘organizational model’ you mean conditioning and coaching at the majors
I guess I’m from Missouri – I really still don’t buy into Perez and Maine as solid guys in the rotation… and Pelfrey sure hasn’t set the world on fire
Rick Peterson has done wonders – but you wonder how long smoke and mirrors are going to last.
You can also argue that there’s a window at Shea that is closing for a lot of that team:
LoDuca
Delgado
Green
Pedro
El Duque
Easley/Valentin (2nd base)
Alou
(I think you can throw Billy Wagner in there, too)
That’s a big chunk of guys that Minaya has to replace in a short time.
If you look at the minor league systems, the Yankees are way ahead of the Mets currently – especially in minor league pitching.
It takes time for the fruits of a solid minor league organization to hit the majors. We’re just on the cusp of that.
scooter-
no ,i mean the yankees ownership and front office is a mess. you have to remember stephen swindall was in power just a few months ago. that’s how bad the organizational model was and is.
to get off mets/yankees because it seems to push buttons i don’t mean to push, just take a look at cleveland’s front office and compare it to what the yankees are doing:
http://cleveland.indians.mlb.c.....p?c_id=cle
gennaro , the financial player value guy, who peter a. recommended, works for them. keith woolner of baseball prospectus just started. antonetti , the asst gm, who’s probably as good as cashman , signed on long term. they seem to be a mix of new school and old school that the yankees don’t have. who is in control of the yankees?from the last crisis when clemens was signed it looks to me like randy levine is the one in charge . but who knows? it seems to change monthly.
tonight’s a big game so i don’t care to go into this too much, but in the off season the yankees have to do a makeover of their ownership and organizational structure because it’s clear george isn’t going to be the same in the future.
Lefties don’t have to throw in the 90′s to be effective.
In fact, lefties who don’t throw in the 90′s but throw strikes and have deceptive deliveries, are actually a better bet to get outs at the major league level.
The bottom line is, Okajima was a miss by the Yankees. It happens.
The guy has an ERA under 1. I don’t care what date it is, we would KILL for a guy like that in this bullpen.
They thought Kei Igawa was a better bet, missed, and wasted 46 million bucks. That’s a big hit.
At this point, its water under the bridge. But, one can wonder what this bullpen would be like if they had a guy like that to pitch the 8th inning. They wouldn’t have to had to burn out so many guys so early in the year.
Stuart
“Youkilis is a trade not homegrown…”
Who was Youkilis traded for hmmm? He drafted by the Red Sox. Please try to think before you type.
http://www.baseball-reference......ke01.shtml