Crunching a few numbers
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jun 27, 2007 
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The Yankees are hitting .258 on this road trip, which is not a huge drop off from their season average of .280.
But they are only 10 of 61 (.164) with runners in scoring position, which has led to the 21 runs in seven games.
Meanwhile, I found this interesting. Scott Proctor struck out 89 hitters and walked 33 in 102.1 innings last season. He has fanned only 27 in 41.1 innings this season while walking 22.
It’s worse for Kyle Farnsworth. He had an impressive 75 strikeouts and only 28 walks in 66 innings last season. This year he has only 20 strikeouts in 30.2 innings while walking 16.
I have not charted every pitch this season. But neither guy has the consistent velocity they had last season. Farnsworth also has lost his slider and Proctor his curveball. Both had he ability to fan a guy with runners on last season. That is only there sporadically this season.
They are a combined 1-6 with a 4.13 ERA.
Peter,
Since I criticized you earlier about Pettitte’s comments, I wanted to say that I liked your game article, which was totally fair.
Good number crunch Peter. Clearly Farnsworth needs to go even if we have to pay his entire contract to do it. We need to make changes. Farnsworth, Meyers, Igawa, Abreu, Minky, Villone should all be put on the block.
I’m reposting this bit from the post-game thread.
Date – Mo – Proctor
6/26 – 0 – 27 pitches
6/25 – off day
6/24 – 0 – 0 pitches
6/23 – 0 – 40 pitches
6/22 – 20 – 22 pitches
6/21 – 0 – 24 pitches
Torre is either blind to the fact that he burns out middle relievers or thinks Proctor is Superman. He’s resting Mo based on his 20 pitch game on 6/22 yet trots out Proctor in a key situation ignoring Proctor’s 40 pitch outing on 6/23.
It makes no sense.
In ’06 Scott Proctor had 30% more IP and 6 more appearances than Jeff Nelson in his busiest year as a Yankee. Proctor led the AL in appearances last year. In ’05 Torre used a 37-year old Tom Gordon more than he used the 30-year old Nelson in his busiest year. In ’04 he pitched the 35-year old Paul Quantrill in 86 games and 95.3 innings.
See a pattern?
The only question that I want to ask is almost exactly what joejoejoe has pointed out. If the Yankees are on a 20 games winning streak, it may not be necessary to do that, but on a 5 in 6 and 2 game losing streak, why does he send in Proctor instead of Mo in the bottom 9? Is it more important to keep in the game and hope for an overtime, or is it more important to keep Mo in the pen until the Yankees might have come to the top? That’s strange, really really strange.
Was Don Zimmer the braintrust behind Torre’s success? Mo should have been in the game. Vizcaino, who is consistent RIGHT NOW, should have came in the game in the nineth. Melky needs to take charge of his outfield. Get Abooboo out of right field. Gagne shutdown the Tigers last night. Brian “ROCKS IN HIS HEAD” Cashman needs to make trades.
Yesterday after Pete posted his article, there were 222 responds before I got off the net. Today, it seems few people want to say things. Well that’s the power of losing streak. I can understand that Proctor got a high pressure not to screw up the game, and the pressure was so high that he indeed screwed it up.
Tomorrow, it may be one of the last few games that Clemens will pitch for the Yankees, I think. I don’t think that he will pitch through the season.
let’s see, we’ve now reached the point where andy pettitte is wondering aloud whether everyone cares as much as he does (here’s a hint, andy, the answer is no). if some of the guys on the team don’t care, why should we?
i can watch a team lose. i’m fine with that. we all survived the stump merrill era, right? but to watch a team fail so miserably at playing fundamental baseball is an absolute disgrace, and something has to be done about it.
fire torre? fine. whatever. i quite honestly don’t care if he keeps his job or not.
trade damon? fine. whatever. if he’ll agree to it and they can get somebody young in return.
trade cano? go for it. i can think of a dozen second basemen i’d rather watch play off the top of my head. i don’t care how young he is, his regression is otherworldly.
here’s the list of players i’d like to see return next year: jeter, a-rod, posada, rivera, pettitte, wang, hughes. that’s it. that’s everyone. and that includes coaching staff and the general manager. somebody (several people, really) has got to pay the price for this disgraceful season.
again, if they were out there battling and doing the little things and just losing to better teams, that’s one thing. but they’re not. they’re losing to the giants and orioles of the world because they can’t play fundamental baseball, the bullpen can’t throw strikes and the manager is content to let the best relief pitcher in the history of the game sit and watch while proctor walks in the winning run. there is SO MUCH wrong with this team right now, i don’t even know how people can single any one thing out.
but that magic playoff run is coming any day now, right? they’re going to leapfrog five teams and make up 8 games in the wildcard. heck, they’ll probably cut that deficit in half by the all-star break, right?
i hope to god cashman isn’t so deluded that he thinks this team can still contend for a playoff spot this season. start making moves, brian. get younger, take some money off the payroll if possible. you owe it to the organization and the fans to start correcting some of your own mistakes. don’t make everyone – the players included – suffer through the embarrassment of you trying to pretend this team has a shot at the playoffs.
i honestly have nothing left to say about this team. what an absolute disgrace. time to enjoy watching the kids in the farm system and counting the days until next season.
Yeah, Kasey, right. I am not arguing for Cano here nor arguing about the 2B position specifically. I just took it as an example for discussion below.
We see good 2B players around. But if the Yankees sold Cano, will they get any quality 2B back? I mean, will any team release a 2B that’s around the same level or better than Cano (and who has the passion to play) ? This is my question on almost all of the position in which we wish that there is a trade. I do not know much about other teams (because in Taiwan we only see Yankees’ games with Wang or Clemens starting, or some Red Sox games, maybe mostly with Dick-K pitching, or Dodgers’ games with Kuo pitching), not so much that I can think of such possibilities. That’s the terrible part. I suspect that Cashman is slow in making trade because he needs to spend a lot of money for improving the team at this stage. A lot of money that he could not handle anymore. Just a feeling.
For the last couple years, the Yankees have been a fading team. Yes they made the playoffs but never were the quality of the top ranked teams. Cashman saw this coming. The trades he made this year Sheffield and Johnson were to get rid of age. Giambi would have been gone too if it were not for his contract. Right now the Yankees are in a tough spot they can’t trade the prospects away that they are building around. Rebuilding takes time. If things go right the Yankees will be a better team in a couple years until then they are just an average or below average team.
The player that is probably the most disappointing this year is Cano. He was a piece to build around but his lack of discipline at the plate and apparently off the field have really hurt the rebuilding. He has the world ahead of him but seems to have missed that point with lack of discipline.
Peter thanks for those numbers, pretty shocking, I wonder how much of it is overuse last year.
Personally I think both those guys do care and are embarrassed by their ineffectiveness. But thats just my opinion from watching on TV.
I said it last night – look to salvage what you can and see what Abreu brings back – even a backup catcher. What about Myers/Mussina ??? Not talking much back in return and yes the Yankees will have to eat salary.
But they essentially wasted 18mm on Clemens and 50mm on Igawa so why not a few more.
I see it getting uglier this year still.
to those of you who did not see the YES broadcast, a very depressing stat was pointed out: the colorado rockies have more wins this season against the AL east than the yankees do….
Fading teams don’t make the playoffs every year. So, obviously, you’re wrong on that.
The bridge has collapsed this. The power arms aren’t that powerful and they don’t throw strikes.
As others have pointed out why not bring up Britton and Rameriez, they couldn’t possibly be any worse than Myers. At this point this season is do or die, if we don’t get going in the right direction before the all star break it will be over!
And we lost our chances to gain games, and haven’t taken advantage!! The soxs lost again last night!!
I wish it was that easy. Just bringing up two relievers from Trip A.
I’d love to see anyone name 12 better young 2b than Cano.
Please. Go for it. And remember he finished 3rd in the league in hitting his 2nd yr after a fabulous first yr.
He is burning Proctor out. He really may need another 4 game suspension to save himself.
Obviously, it is depressing when the losing continues….
Every one on the team, players, coaches and manager have to be accountable for this dismal performance.
Sure, many say it is all players and you have a valid point. At the same time you say that Torre is not responsible.
I think it is about time to wake up to the reality and recognize Torre is not the right manager for this team any more. For that matter, even when the team was winning all those WS, I still beleive that Zimmer was the genius behind and once he left, Torre has been helpless.
Coming back to current dismal performance, I quarely put the responsibility for many losses on Joe Torre. Why? He is the manager for a reason. It is his job to recognize the game situtions and how individual pitchers are functioning on a given day and take corrective action before the situation gets out of hand. Yesterday was a good example. Why wait until Proctor walks the winning run? And it is not the first time. Last week (or the week earlier) he let Proctor walk in two runs before he woke up.
As much as I still believe that it is possible to make the playoffs (I am sure it sounds like a broken record to many of you), now I am convinced it is not going to happen with Joe Torre at the helm. He is not creative, he does not react to the game situations and just sticks to his failed plans every day.
In the last few days, a few commneted how Torre was doing a good job during the winning streak. Let me be loud and clear on that one. During the winning streak, Joe Torre did not get the chance to screw up the games. His managerial skills are needed when the going gets tough, not getting credit when the team is coasting.
Where are you Zimmer… We miss you…. Please come back, just like Yogi Berra did and save us from this penidng disaster.
For whatever it is worth, we still have a chance to make it to the playoff, primarily because Cleveland has to fight with many strong teams in AL Central and more than half the season is still left. My hope is that Joe Torre gets moved upstairs as adviser to whoever (to save embarrassment to him) and they bring in an energetic, no-nonsense manager like Girardi.
I am not giving up on the season yet. May be we should lose the next two games to Orioles and hit rock bottom, which should force the managerial change and start the steady climb with a couple of infusions through trades.
At this point, I have to acquiesce and agree that what further harm could possibly be done by promoting Britton and possibly Ramirez. Could they do much worse?
Regarding using Mariano last night, I think it’s a no-win for Torre no matter what he does, so long as the other “relief” pitchers are incapable of throwing strikes. If he uses Mariano in a tie game, and this pathetic excuse for an offense doesn’t score, then you still have to rely on the other guys.
What’s really upsetting about the Yankees is how very few of them seem capable of picking up their game. And they can’t get in synch. Frankly, the starting pitching has been fine — not great, but fine. Certainly, they could have won most of the games they lost on the road trip if the bullpen didn’t implode or if the offense had decided to show up. The All-Star break can’t come fast enough, if you ask me. If they can manage to win a few games and get to the break over .500, maybe they can take a a deep breath and shut the door on the first half of the season. Even if at that point it’s getting too late to salvage a playoff spot, there is a certain amount of pride still involved.
I can’t imagine that Cashman is sitting around thinking things will work themselves out, but I guess anything is possible. I think there are still too many teams with a chance for wild card/division that it’s going to be very difficult to get any deal done. Plus, I would think Cashman is not excited about the prospect of perhaps having to eat a large percentage of salary of players he gets rid of.
I know the players respect Torre’s emotional balance, but I sure hope that he is a lot more critical of his team behind closed doors than he shows the public during the post-game interviews. It’s a good thing that he doesn’t throw his players under the bus in public, don’t get me wrong, but all is NOT well here, and I guess I wish Torre didn’t always looks so calm. I know, that’s contradictory, but none of this season is making any sense anyway, is it?
Like many of you have posted, if this was a younger team with some talent but without much experience, or a team with mediocre players, or if they were losing to better teams, you could stand it. But they’re just flat out being outplayed by supposedly weaker teams. They showed in the beginning of this month what they are capable of doing. How to sustain that is the question. I think winning a couple of close games would do a world of good. Pounding on a team won’t do it — they’ve got to do something no one believes they can do anymore — win a close game.
I have always held that all I expect from the Yankees is competitive baseball. Nothing is guaranteed, not a division, not a wild card, not a WS. And if they get none of those things, but play sound, exciting baseball, that seems to me that they’re doing their part. But they’ve gotten out of their game. This is not the Yankees. Where are the Yankees??????????
BBFan is dead on.
Proctor’s decline has an obvious cause: his 100 IP last year and his pace to go over 90 IP this year, in conjunction with Torre’s willingness to have him appear practically every day. I doubt many relievers could withstand such abuse.
“I asked Torre directly about using Rivera and he said he didn’t want to based on the 1.2 innings he had worked on Friday.”
does Joe know that yesterday was Tuesday, THREE DAYS of rest later? does he know that Friday is the only time Mo has pitched in NINE days?
i am completely blown away by the incompetance demonstrated by this comment. it is mind boggling and i can’t believe people can still defend Torre’s actions.
he has lost it. i’m sorry. it’s sad to see the end of a great era, but that is just a pathetic answer.
i won’t even comment on giving away a free out after Chris Ray, who the Yankees OWN, walks the leadoff hitter.
I can understand not wanting to burn out Mo but come on. These were 2 must win games here. And to lose and not even have your best on the hill?
I hate, hate, hate, really hate bunting. Giving away outs is basically say to the other team “thanks but we can’t swing the bats”. Didn’t Torre ever read Moneyball?
While many here are calling for Cashman to get whacked, let’s not overlook the one major overhaul that is in progress, and thus far working quite well… the restocking of the minors with high quality pitching prospects. I, for one, am willing to absorb this disasterous season as long as we stay on track with grooming these young arms to be the foundation of our new pitching staff for the next 10 years.
I am very concerned that panic will lead to trading these prospects for bloated contracts, and we’ll just repeat the same mistakes over and over again. Remember, if Cashman gets bagged, the Tampa group gets control of this organization again… you remember those guys, right? Kevin Brown? Randy Johnson? etc… you can say goodbye to the youth movement if these guys wrestle back control of the organization.
I agree with much of what is getting posted. I have been a huge Torre fan, but clearly he isn’t the right fit for the makeup of this team. Sadly, I agree he should go.
Moving some of the bigger name players is problematic. In many cases, you’re dealing with no trade clauses, bloated contracts, and players on the downside of their careers. There isn’t a lot of flexibility.
But the fact that we’ve made NO changes is infuriating. For example, I cannot understand why Ramirez & Britton continue to throw darts in Scranton without getting an opportunity. When Britton WAS up, he was hardly used. This is another problem with Torre’s managerial style and why a change should be made. He just does not give new guys a shot. He will continue to use a veteran player until he dies on the field and gets carried off.
It’s become unwatchable. Changes must be made. But be careful about asking for Cashman’s head. He’ll have to hand over the keys to the farm system back to those cuckoo birds in Tampa.
so do the yankees front office people think that i’m going to pay $50 for a ticket , $20 for parking any $9.75 per beer for a team like this ? 210 million for this ? the bad part is i’m so emotionally vested in this team i cant help buut watch . its agony . 210 million is incredible for this type of play .
After watching the train wreck, I hope Cashman isn’t going to do anything rash like trade his better prospects.
If he can get an arm or two and a low cost hitter, fine. But there is no way he should be even thinking about moving anything of value.
Yeah right.
If they fire Cashman and hire Joe Schmoe tomorrow there is no chance in heck that guy trades the future for short term fixes.
Why would a new hire gut the teams star prospects? He’d obviously be given a long contract and a chance to stamp this team. He wouldn’t want to part with any future stars.
The future is good. We just have to worry about Cashman feeling pressure and dealing the kids to save his butt. Thankfully he proved in 2005 he is not that kind of GM. See the Mets and Scott Kazmir.
How does one walk the leadoff hitter in the bottom of the 9th?
I still don’t understand that one.
I’m at my wits end with this bunch. Could be a depressing summer in the Bronx if this keeps up.
just to clarify …
1. its not torre’s fault the players are playing like garbage
2. i like the way cashman rid he team of poor attitude players like sheff and rj and brought in some prospects but he still made some pretty terrible free agent deals .
3. i like torre but its time for a change – next year .
4. the division is clearly out of reach
5. the wild card is getting out of reach unless the team play gets much better . harder effort , executing fundementals and better relief pitching starting with fewer walks .
I wondered why Torre didn’t pull Proctor last night once the bases were loaded, or 1 batter before for that matter.
I also agree Mo needs to be used more at this time.
We need to move now, not once it’s too late. There is still hope this fiasco of a season can be righted with good and consistant play, hopefully.
What I don’t agree with is Cano being terrible. He’s basically in his sophomore year and slumps go along with that for some players. He has not made near as many error’s, less than Jeter’s 12, and has and does make many fine plays. He is being chastized out of frustration more than he is doing as poorly as some fans make it out to be. Somehow those plays and hits are always forgotten when the team does poorly. He’s young enough to correct his impatience at the plate and will with more time playing.
Everyone wanted younger, well this is what you get from that sometimes. Same applies to Melky although he doesn’t have Cano’s potential IMO.
They really need a Tori Hunter type in center and a Carl Crawford type as a leadoff hitter since Damon is in dire straits. More speed will make the opposing teams sweat like we do when they run all over on us. Melky is not the answer, as much as the fans think he is.
He’s OK at best and is being over rated by many.
Firing Torre at this point is fruitless. No one is going to right this ship unless the players do. You could bring in McCarthy, Huggins and Stengel, it wouldn’t matter. It’s up to the players to turn this around. Firing, DFA’ing and the useless trades being proposed mean nothing. Three hitters in the lineup cannot carry this team no matter what their numbers are showing. They can only do so much.
People say pitching is needed. True, but if you bring back Nolan Ryan, Whitey Ford, etc., they still won’t be scoring the runs needed to win. This team was built as an offensive powerhouse with decent pitching, not vice versa.
The one thing Torre has done well is keeping Cairo in the lineup, this due to Cairo’s unexpected performance. He has really done a good job for a utility guy. He’s never going to be Texeira but has been doing better than anyone thought he would.
I think the trade deadline is going to bring some changes but not the major one’s the fans want. With the frustration level so high right now, people tend to over dramatize and believe everything written or spoken about by the media. They are incorrect as much as they are right. I take it all with a grain of salt and keep watching and hoping they can turn this mess around. If not you can drive yourself crazy.
the lack of K’s by Proctor are because of his overuse by Torre over the last two seasons. His arm will fall off if Torre isn’t fired soon.
Any GM that comes in has to be drooling to take over a team with a a payroll of 200 million, the quality and quantity of young arms in the system, and the resources to compete on the latin FA market and draft.
You cannot ask for a better job if you’re a GM.
Proctor should consider failing a drug test just to get the 50 game suspension, it might save his career lol
It’s hard to make significant trades right now, almost no team has given up yet. Cashman won’t trade a top tier pitching prospect, god knows he wasn’t able to get the top pitching prospects for Sheffield (Andrew Miller) or Johnson (Micah Owings).
Also he is not going to find another Jack Cust, heck he may have one of his own in Shelley Duncan, who they refuse to give a shot to. I wish there was some organizational positional player depth to challenge the current starters instead of career minor leaguers.
So basically, what we have is going to have to get back to playing right between now and the all star break. After that some trades could be done, but for now, the Yankees need to find their inner strength to get out of this slump. There is no other way.
Lastly, I want to try something different. I would normally predict the Yankees would win this series and my positive predictions keep going wrong. So instead I am going to predict an Oriole sweep and losing 2 of 3 to Oak. Then a split with the Twins and losing 2 of 3 to Anaheim for an All Star break record of 40-46.
it is quite obvious to everyone here that joe torre needs to leave. As i was watching the game yesterday i predicted to my friend before the inning that proctor was going to blow it. It is a like a sad soap opera which keeps repeating and repeating. The tired old script remains the same. As i have said before, the only thing cashman has done well is hoard young arms. No position players mind you. I think cash and joe need to go.
Cashman has not brought in one pitcher worth his salt since Mussina in 2000. You would think he would hit maybe once or twice just by sheer luck since then. He has no eye for major league pitching.
Brown, Vazquez, Pavano, Wright, Igawa. Not to mention all the bullpen disasters they;ve used trying to replace Nelson/Stanton/Mendoza.
Don’t predict series in the future.
For one this team isn’t as bad as it looks now. And two you never know.
Who would have said we’d take 2 of 3 from Boston twice? Then who would have said we’d get swept by Colorado after the way we’d been playing?
Doreen said: “Regarding using Mariano last night, I think it’s a no-win for Torre no matter what he does, so long as the other “reliefâ€? pitchers are incapable of throwing strikes. If he uses Mariano in a tie game, and this pathetic excuse for an offense doesn’t score, then you still have to rely on the other guys.”
Doreen, that is a copout. You don’t give yourself the best chance of winning just because you think your team won’t score? That’s right up there with a pitcher getting beaten with his second best pitch in a BIG spot (Hi, Mark Wohlers). The Yanks needed that game last night. I appreciate joejoejoe’s comment, posting the pitch counts of both Proctor and Mariano, which further questions the questionable logic used by Joe in his explanation. I totally get the Mariano Rivera’s arm is about 13,000 times more important than Scott Proctor’s arm – couldn’t agree more.
I wish I knew what the answer was, or felt like Cashman did at this point. Bringing up Britton shouldn’t hurt, and truly see if some other team would give you a nice, cold 12-pack of Meister Brau for Farnsworth. A nice cold one of those would certainly be easier on my stomach than seeing Krazy Krappy Kyle trot out to the mound. I wonder if Washington would be asking too much for Da Meat Hook…
I enjoyed what you wrote Doreen. Good assessment.
I do not believe Cashman should be fired though he is partially responsible for the team on the field. I say partially because, some of the ineffectiveness of the bullpen is caused by Torre’s (and Guidry too) misuse. Proctor is a good example. He was good last year. How can one hold Cashman for Proctor’s underperformance this year when Torre burned out this guy.
Cashman did a lot to improve the Farm which sets us for exciting baseball for many years in the future. That alone is reason enough why Cashman should not be fired.
Torre bungled on Saturday not using Rivera. And he bungled last night not using Rivera.
You cannot defend it.
I think a lot of ppl will most likely be disappointed when Torre gets fired and nothing changes with this group under a new manager. I’m not so much defending Torre, rather I’m condemning his team. I do feel Torre has made some poor decisions (not in hindsight but before the fact) but I see managers make “interesting” decisions all the time. Problem is the yanks don’t seem to have the horses anymore and any decision he makes ends up lose lose. It’s like having to bet red on a roulette wheel where every number is painted black.
I think last nights decision to bring (and leave) in Proctor might be a classic Torre to GM “See what I have to work with?!?!” move.
Ah the Zim…isn’t that the guy who managed a team that blew a 14 game lead in the division in mid July? Funny enough that year the yanks were Managed by a in your face guy that was eventually replaced by a Torre type in Lemon. Weird how that’s flip flopped with how this might play out. Shows that there is more than one way to skin a cat….
Who’s Torre going to use out there? Bruney? Villone? Myers? Henn?
None of them can throw strikes.
What was the plan to replace Giambi when he went down? Cairo???
The Yanks got no power. No one to fear besides A Rod in the middle of the lineup. No guy scares any pitcher and no guy can hit one out at anytime.
Banking on Giambi and Abreu over Sheffield is now biting them on the butt. Regardless of how he is perceived for his verbal onslaught sometimes, Sheff still had and has a very potent bat. He is laughing all the way to the playoffs right now. Good for him. I for one think they were too quick to let him go.
I hate this team they are a complete joke Torre needs to go he has completely lost it.
DL Proctor get him the hell out of the pen bring up Britton and Ramirez who are dominating in AAA
Send Cano to Staten Island and tell him he isn’t coming back up until he realizes balls over his head and in the dirt are not strikes also give him a test him for alcohol everyday because he parties all the time oh and tell him when you are losing 7-2 GET THAT SMILE OFF YOUR FACE AND QUIT MAKING JOKES THIS ISN’T A JOKE GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!!! and stop getting picked off or doubled up once a week!
Send Bobby Aboo Aboo somewhere he is such a soft, gutluss, crybaby he doesn’t go near the walls he has no power and only hits flares to left field because he is scared of staying in there and getting hit. He bails out on lefties all the time because he is scared of the ball. Actually before you send him somewhere tie him to the wall in the batting cage put a catcher’s mask on him and drill him with 95 MPH heat from the pitching machine and don’t let him wear a cup either MAYBE HE WILL GROW UP AND ACT LIKE A MAN… instead of veering away from the ball last night because he heard Melky sneeze and let a routine flyball drop which led to a run and no Rivera in the 9th because Torre is inept
VOID GIAMBI’s contract I don’t care if you have to plant roids at his house do whatever it takes!!!!!!!!
Get a CF and put Melky on the bench he is a 4th outfielder AT BEST
Post Igawa up for Japanese teams to bid on him.
Minkiaknjmfkjnfjasjfdkasjdf should be a defensive replacement and no more
Damon go away with your two-year old arm and body of a 85 year old man
Blow up the pen BLOW IT UP… keep Bruney and Proctor for blow outs and early inning relief… Villone, Myers, Vizcaino, Farnsworth SEE YAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
Bullpen stats:
11 Bases loaded walks this year (worst in majors)
138 BB this year (worst in majors)
Farnsworth averages almost two base runners per inning ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!!! and he is such a wuss he can’t pitch two innings or two days in a row JOKE!
How in the world can the Yankees spend 200 million and have one of the worst backup catchers in the history of baseball… he is a career 30 YEAR OLD yes 30 YEAR OLD minor leaguer who is hitting .111 can’t bunt, doesn’t walk, and lets the likes of Barry Bonds and Ryan Klesko get steals off of him because he can’t reach 2nd base on the fly.. What is his value to this team get him out of here GOODBYE
KEEP HUGHES, CHAMBERLAIN, KENNEDY, BETANCES, AND TABATA
Rotation next year:
Wang, Hughes, Pettitte, Chamberlain/Kennedy/(maybe Clippard), Lilly (oh wait no Cash decided he wanted IGAWA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so now they need a free agent and we all know Cash’s record with pitchers: Wright, Weaver, Randy, Brown, Karsay, Vazquez, Conteras, Neagle, Wohlers, Farnsworth, Pavano, Igawa
Zimmer was an excellent bench coach. Period.
Lanny, the plan to repalce Giambi was Melky in Center, Damon at DH. The plan to play 1B was Minky and Phelps. Minky got hurt, Phelps stunk defensively. Cairo and now Phillips have replaced them. Basak replaced Cairo.
None of those moves has been the problem on this team. Here are the problems if you ask me:
1. Shaky bullpen walking too many guys.
2. Abreu prolonged slumps.
3. Posada (and pitchers) not being to throw out runners.
4. Cano hitting w RISP.
5. Mussina and Igawa not good enough to shut down opposition with a lead.
6. No high level organizational depth to push starters.
The only thing they need offensively during the off yr was a 1b who could hit right handed and another power bat on the bench.
They failed to get either. Now they have to play Cairo at 1b. Wouldn’t it have been better to stick with Sheffield and put him at DH and play Giambi everyday at 1b til he got hurt? You have a Giambi- Mient platoon there.
Bringing up pitchers from the minors is no guarantee they will help. They are there to learn and build strength, not to bail out the team now. Blowing out an AA or AAA arm for a short term gain makes little sense. One in a hundred pitchers may, just may, make a difference. Banking on Hughes, Chamberlain or any of the others in the minors to be a savior is a gamble at best. They could be great or could flop just as easily. Does DeSalvo ring a bell ??? Or Clippard ???
We need help but not at the expense of the future IMO.
These guys may be doing great in AAA ball but that doesn’t always translate into effectiveness in the majors, just ask Andy Phillips, or Bubba Crosby, or even Melky Cabrera. Being exciting, energetic and maybe even great for a week or a month, or even a half of a season does not make a major league player.
Rip on Proctor and Farnsworth all you want, but dont ignore the pink elephant in the room known as Mike Myers. Hes the most worthless guy in the bullpen. Hes a Loogy who cant get out leftys, they are hitting .306 against him. Hes in the 2nd year of a 2 year deal and only making 1.25M this year meaning hes completely expendable. DFA him and bring up Chris Britton or Edwar Ramirez for short relief OR bring back Chase Wright or Tyler Clippard for long relief.
It seriously baffles me why he is still on the team and used in big situations. I think Torre just likes to hear the Halloween music or something when he comes in. Thats about the only thing hes got going for him.
What was Torre thinking not putting Rivera in during the 9th inning – especially after the 2nd walk – ugghhhhh
If we had a few starters who could go 8 innings once in a blue moon it wouldn’t hurt us either.
I’ve seen enough of the rookie pitchers. I don’t need to see 7 of them struggle thru 5 innings again.
I’ll be happy to never see desalvo or bean again
1. there was no where to play sheff . abreu plays rf and so does sheff . sheff told cashman point blank he wasnt going to pla lb – michael kay
2. pettite’s comments are spot on . he cares , jeter cares but who on this team in showing and proving that tey care what goes on on the field ? not many .
Fred Zeppelin –
I don’t know that it’s a copout. The only thing I would say is perhaps Torre could have brought in Mariano in the middle of the inning, once it became fairly clear that Proctor “could not locate.”
I’m not big into second-guessing, because I don’t have all the facts at hand that I assume Torre and his staff have. But it seems to me that Torre can be faulted for not benching players who are not producing. And I don’t mean sit one game out to collect themselves. I mean, for instance, sit Abreu, play Thompson, and unless Thompson really screws up, keep him in there for a while. Thompson would be a passable number 8 hitter, if that’s where Torre is going to bury Abreu in the lineup anyway. And Thompson has great range in the outfield. I reallize Thompson is a “AAAA” player at best, but something needs to be done. by the way, I don’t think playing Thompson will necessarily change the Yankees fortune, but maybe it’s a starting point to say, things around here really have got to change.
Melky Cabrera. The reason Melky can’t be the everyday centerfielder long term is because he is not a take-charge guy, at least not yet. Because of his youth and status as a replacement player, fifth outfielder, whatever, he is more likely to concede his position to an established player out there (like last night). I hope someone talks to him and tells him it is his job as a centerfield to be the boss out there. Maybe he explicitly needs that instruction, though, if he was a centerfielder in the minors, shouldn’t that have been part of his training? I don’t know.
Without Giambi, and without Damon and Abreu being productive, and with Matsui in a bit of a slump (tho, overall, I think he’s fine), Sheffield’s bat is indeed missed. But again, who knew? Who knew how this year would seem like an episode from the Twilight Zone?
I do not want the Yankees to give up on Cano. I believe in the long run he will work himself out.
The hitters have lost any patience at the plate, and those who only had it in small doses anyway, like Cano, aren’t even giving themselves a chance.
I didn’t like the bunt play last night, either, especially with Posada being the runner. It’s amazing though, that when the Yankees are playing badly, they can’t bunt well and they can’t even hit a fly ball far enough to score a runner from third. I think Jeter was pretty on targe post-game when he was asked if there was anything he could pinpoint as to why the team wasn’t hitting. He said, of course, no, and if they could, they’d certainly fix it. But I think it was ironic to ask one of the most consistent hitters on the team about the lack of hitting.
I agree Eddie. They were penny wise and dollar foolish getting rid of Sheff knowing they had an aging team. They could have gotten rid of all the older guys in 2008 when their contracts were up. They could have extended Sheff for one year with a team option, so he would hit his 500 HR mark, be happy and the payroll dump would have taken place a year later. Now the are spending more to compensate for letting him go then they would have by re-signing him for 2 years.
For all the BS said about him, Sheff was a gamer. He provided a fear factor at the plate this team now lacks badly. Just ask any opposing player or team.
Just because the media disliked him, he was booted out of town. Unfair and foolish IMO.
Like I said. Why couldn’t Sheff DH?
And you play Giambi at 1b. And you let Sheff play RF some days. You platoon Giambi with Doug M at 1b. If Giambi gets hurt which is eventual you have coverage.
Isn’t that a little better than trading Sheff for 3 injury disasters and getting 2 bums to play 1b?
Ok my last post didn’t post and I didn’t even use profanity, go figure?
Anyway here are the major problems I see with the Yankees right now:
1 Bullpen pitchers walking too many people.
2 Abreu’s prolonged slumps.
3 No ability to hit with RISP.
4 Posada (and the pitchers) not being able to throw anyone out.
5 Mussina and Igawa being too mediocre and giving up leads.
6 No organizational positional player depth to push starters.
7 Injury to Phil Hughes
I miss any major ones?
Let’s not go nuts killing Cash for the Sheff trade, hindsight is 20/20 on that one. Almost everyone wanted to get rid of him after last years disaster.
Vinny, the only problem, is Sheff wanted, I believe, a 2-year extension at least, and was not going to settle for anything less. He was willing to experiment at 1B, but was not willing to continue to look foolish doing so. Once they got Abreu, Sheff’s days were numbered anyway, unless Abreu failed. The other thing was that the Yankees did very well last year without Sheff, and so it was concluded (and not necesssarily incorrectly) that he was expendable. But, I feel as you do, he was an intimidating presence in the lineup, and his productivity kind of negated the instances where he would engage his mouth before his brain.
I also don’t believe he was a “clubhouse cancer,” so much as he seemed to be a difficult person to deal with regarding his contract and the issues he has with his definition of “respect.”
And Abreu was supposed to work out here. He fit in nicely last season, and it seemed to agree with him that he was not expected to be “the power guy” in the Yankees’ lineup. He is seriously underachieving this year.
Oh, one more thing that I think factors into the Sheffield situation is Giambi’s situation. Sheffield was expendable, contract-wise, and Giambi was not. Sometimes, it’s really that simple.
Chris, with the amount of injuries this team has every year, Sheff could have been usefull in any capacity. DH, PH, Backup RF’er, backup or even platoon 1st baseman with the broken down Giambi. Sheff said he would do whatever the team needed him to do. He proved that by playing 1st in the playoffs last year, with little to no experience there. He wasn’t as bad as they made him out to be. He could have had time to hone his skills in spring training this year to be as good as Giambi with a better arm, or even a better fielder, if he was given the chance. Losing his bat in the lineup was a mistake regardless of where he played in the field. This was money motivated and in poor judgement IMO.
Mo 27 IP
MO HAS THROWN LESS THIS YEAR THAN:
MYERS 29
BRUNEY 32
PROCTOR 41
VIZCAINO 37
FARNSWORTH 31
It is obvious that Joe has taken an overdose of stupid pills; when Mo is the least used man in your below avg pen and u keep losing 1 run games, something is wrong; WIN THE FLIPPIN GAME JOE, DO NOT WAIT FOR S OPPORTUNITIES THAT ARE NEVER GONNA COME IF U KEEP PUTTING IN HACKS LIKE PROCTOR
ALSO, POSADA NEEDS TO BE PULLED IN A 2-2 GAME WHEN ON 1st IF U ARE GONNA BUNT HIM OVER; HOW BASIC IS THAT?
Disgusting loss, disgusting season, major overhaul needed, this team will never win as constructed
Clemens, Moose, Andy all running on fumes and none are stoppers
Damon/Abreu 2 mistakes, both are below avg fielders and can’t hit anymore
Cano has taken step backwards this year
Utility MI is our starting 1B
No backup C
Bryan is a 100% right on we need more like him on here
Doreen, I honestly feel they wanted to dump salary over the fact they really wanted to lose Sheff. Sheff wanted to stay here. I also feel a contract could have been reached if they weren’t trying so hard to reduce salary. I agree with the points about Giambi and Abreu but as we all know, this team always has injuries. Getting 3 medocre players, at best, for a bat like Sheff’s bothered me last year. Even though he was out last year, the fear he instilled in other teams was severely overlooked and what he produced is sorely missed today. JMO.
To take your minds of things, I found this movie on a dutch site of a Japanese pitcher delivering in a very unusual way. Maybe it’s something for Proctor
http://www.kladblog.com/embedd.....#038;h=360
I don’t disagree that they wanted to reduce salary. But I also think that if Sheff had been amenable to one year and maybe a team option for the second, they may have been able to do something. And that’s where Sheff’s issues with “respect” comes in. To him, it was a sign of disrespect that the Yankees wouldn’t meet his demands for a contract extension. I can’t fault the Yankees for wanting to be more flexible – you don’t want to tie up a 38-year-old outfielder (as good as Sheffield is) who is on the declining side of his career for 3 years or more. It’s my opinion Cashman’s MO is not so much the salary as the length of contracts.
Also, regarding Giambi, it was becoming clearer and clearer that the more he played the field, the more time he was going to spend being hurt. And he showed that when he was hurting, he could not hit. He was amazing the first almost 2/3 of last season, while he was healthy. But once the wrist started acting up, his production declined quite a bit. If they had to keep Giambi, which pretty much they did (contract, who wants a guy associated with PED’s), it was clear he couldn’t play the field, and he had to be the full-time DH. And it was proven in the negative this year, when he injured himself the first time he played first base (or at least aggravated a condition he may have had).
I won’t second guess the Sheff move because the guy would have been a total headcase without an extension.
But they needed to replace his right handed bat somewhere in the lineup. And they didn’t.
Cano is going thru what every young player goes thru. Teams make adjustments on you. Now its up to him to make adjustments back. Every young player deals with that.
You don’t hit 330 in your 2nd year by accident or luck.
Things looks as bleak as they’ve ever looked around here.
I don’t know what they can do to change things around. It’s up to the guys we go to go out and perform.
If you knew Giambi was a walking time bomb about to get hurt even at DH, why trade Sheffield? What Cashman did at 1b this year has properly f-d us. He wasted 3 spots on the roster. It lead to Bernie not being here. Unforgivable.
Its the easiest position to find a hitter!!
michael kay said on his radio program that sheff told cashman he would not play firstbase . period . not my words but your boy michael kay . i cant stand him personally .
I may not know everything about baseball but its fairly obvious we need another bat in this lineup.
As Pete pointed out, Yankees are 4-13 in one run games. They also have a P win/loss record of 43-31, versus their actual record of 36-38.
Going back to 2001, in every year, Torre had more actual wins than p-wins, which many stat experts point to as a sign of good managing. I’m wondering if this team is beyond Torre’s skill set this year.
For the first time, I’m thinking we need a change, and that in the form of a manager that is a take charge kind of guy (e.g., Girardi, rather than Mattingly).
I also think we need to shake up the lineup. Back in 1925, Huggins stated benching players that were producing, including Bob Meusel and the infamous Wally Pipp. Sit Abreau, Damon, Cano etc. Shake up the bullpen.
I don’t think one block buster trade will make a difference (or is possible given the contracts we signed), but perhaps Cashman can dig around for lower priced talent like he did back in ’05 with Shawn Chacon.
I think of anything, the starting pitching looks ok.
I do know one thing – what we’re doing now is not working. And the definition of insanity is “doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results”.
What is Torry waiting for, not using Mo last night. Maybe when we are 20 games out and Mo hasn’t pitched in 3 weeks he will bring him in. And Proctor not able to throw a strike…If he;s hurt DL him. This season is lost, I say bring up the kids and see what they can do.
I agree with Britton and Ramirez. If anything, this shows how ridiculous Torre is with his favoritism. There is absolutely no defending leaving a guy with Britton’s ability in AAA.
Bring in Girardi please.
Would be nice if Cashman could go out and get a bat. Right about now. I think the lineup could use it. I wonder what Shelly Duncan did to not get a call up when they need a bat?
Pete,
We would love to hear Torre’s response to the Shelly Duncan question. What more does he have to prove at AAA at his age and what do the Yankees have to lose by giving him a chance?
Man, I was such a fan of Proctor when he first came up and I was hoping he’d turn things around this year. He’s definitely one of the guys I cringe over when I see him come in the games now.
This has been mentioned a few times already in this thread, but I have to throw my two cents in as well. One of the things that has made this such a difficult year is knowing that we have the freaking talent, yet you wouldn’t know by watching the the team. We’ve seen glimpses of it when they put it all together and got some sync gong during the win streak. I don’t think that Cano’s ’06 was a fluke, nor was Melky’s. Abreu has been a huge unfortunate surprise. And Damon – how the hell does this guy get so many aches and pains so easily? I’m 39 and not an athlete with the resources these guys have at their disposal, yet I’m not getting hurt all the damn time.
It’s frustrating, no doubt. Time to make some changes for sure.
Wolf
Not sure how much talent this team really has. They’ve played about half a season and they’re 2 games under. They are what they are. Cairo is the evryday firstbaseman for Pete’s sake.
I can deal with a bad year, I’m just hoping Cash is not hellbent on trying to salvage the lost cause that is the 2007 season. His focus should be on moves that will benefit the team in 2008 and beyond.
What we need to do is to pry ‘Rockin’ Leo Mazzone out of Baltimore and install him as ‘Pitching Guru’ for the entire organization.Also,give Joe a big bash at the Stadium,’retire’ him,and hire the other Joe,Girardi.Sell high on Cano,even if all we get back are draft picks.Move heaven and earth for M.Tex,up to,but including Phil “The Franchise” Hughes.Relief pitching is cyclical(sp)some years guys pitch great,the next year they often seem to backslide,so do some homework in this area.
I meant to say NOT to include Hughes in any trade.
gargoyle
I agree with you – no moer of trading of prospects for overpaid, overaged “stars” with long contracts. Don’t give up on ’07, but start planning for ’08. I’d make smaller deals for lower priced talent, but try to leave the farm system intact. I would ship Farnsworth for whatever I could get however. When would you make the move for Giardi?
“If we had a few starters who could go 8 innings once in a blue moon it wouldn’t hurt us either. ”
We do have WANG to do that job. Maybe we need 2 guys in the rotation who could go 7-8 innings. Then again even though his Win-Loss record doesn’t show it Pettite gives us 7-8 innings almost every start. Maybe we need all 5 starters to go 7-8 innings everyday. That may help the bullpen.
I was curious, so I searched out some numbers. Pulled these off MLB.com’s league leaders, in case anyone has info that’s different from this.
Here’s the top ten list of games appeared in by a pitcher so far this season:
1. C. Bradford – BAL – 41 games – 29.1 IP
2. M. Capps – PIT – 41 games – 43.1 IP
3. J. Rauch – WSH – 41 games – 40.0 IP
4. J. Colome – WSH – 40 games – 45.2 IP
5. J. Broxton – LAD – 39 games – 39.2 IP
6. S. Camp – TB – 39 games – 29.0 IP
7. S. Downs – TOR – 39 games – 31.0 IP
8. T. Miller – HOU – 39 games – 18.2 IP
9. S. Proctor – NYY – 39 games – 41.1 IP
10. S. Rivera – WSH – 39 games – 42.2 IP
(and because he’s also tied with 39)
11. J. Walker – BAL – 39 games – 29.0 IP
And from that list, here’s the top five IP:
1. J. Colome – 45.2 IP (2.76 ERA) [On the 15-day DL]
2. M. Capps – 43.1 IP (2.70 ERA)
3. S. Rivera – 42.2 IP (3.59 ERA)
4. S. Proctor – 41.1 IP (3.48 ERA)
5. J. Rauch – 40.0 IP (4.28 ERA)
Only one American League pitcher. Congratulations, Proc? (And that’s with a four-game suspension…)
I still like Proctor’s stuff, and I like his mentality. With Vizcaino showing more now, I keep wondering what could have been if they’d gotten that from Viz at the start. But with the starting staff as it was in the early going and the offense still looking asleep out there, I guess being able to rotate between Proc, Viz, and Bruney more consistently early on wouldn’t have made much difference. The bullpen can lose games for you, but if you’re not scoring runs they’re not going to win many for you either.
1. This is a .500 team at best so maybe (maybe) that puts them in Wild Card territory if the other contenders fold. I don’t think that’s enough of an upside to trade young prospects or to bring in a new skipper in mid year. I think that considering the alternatives that make sense, and that their best possible outcome is dogfight for the Wild Card, they are not going to trade good prospects to try to salvage this season.
When we look back at this year, we’ll see that the immediate cause of collapse was the early pitching injuries and the resulting strain on the bullpen which, coupled with the Sox pitching destroyed any margin for error. Add in the Pavano and Igawa situations and there you are. Giambi and Damon falling apart wasn’t fatal but the patient was already weak.
But it really took 6 years of bad decisions to get where we are today so it’s not getting fixed at the trade deadline. It is what it is. A trade of prospects now only further delays righting the ship. As fans, we need to suck it up.
2. At the same time, this team needs to suck it up. Jeter, Posada, Pettitte, Clemens and Mo need to call a players only meeting and impress on some of these guys what a gift it is to play for the Yankees and that Yankee pride and tradition, along with Clemens, Jeter, Po, Mo and Pettitte, demands much more of them.
3. Abreu is no Sheffield, but that’s only half the problem. The other half of the problem is that he’s no Paul O’Neill. Abreu is soft and shows no sign of his experience or the toughness or leadership that is supposed to come with that.
3. Joe and Cash don’t want to mess with Cano too much because last year he showed some potential greatness and they don’t want to turn him into Knoblauch. Forget the grinning stuff. He’s forcing himself to try to stay loose. (Let’s not forget that his mentor was Ruben Sierra and he is gone. Abreu is not a role model for anybody on that team).
It’s got to be ulcer time in that locker room and Cano is young and not sure what to do amidst the madness. Stop with the “send him to Staten Island or Scranton” stuff. Cano needs to learn how to handle pressure at the MLB level, not the triple A or single A level. And where is all this “Cano parties too much” stuff coming from?
4. Melky is a shy kid from the DR. He’s not Roberto Clemente or Mickey Mantle. But he tracks the ball well, can catch it and has a plus arm, two and half tools. He may hit near .280 one day with some gap shots and a couple of dingers. And he’s cheap.
He knows he’s not the real CF for this team and he is also overwhelmed by the surroundings. Last night he was betrayed by Abreu and that will teach him once and for all that Abreu is not to be trusted, that when Melky plays CF, he is the Captain of the outfield and that he should call everything out there in CF and right center because he has no back up. That’s got to be hard for a kid who no doubt looked up to Abreu until he found out what a coward the guy is.
5. Farnsworth: inconsistent and unreliable, but who has demonstrated the reliability and consistency to step in if he goes?
6. Proctor: he has to be getting burned out. Look at the numbers this year after the toll last year. Control and consistency sometimes go before velocity.
This team is not looking like it’s going anywhere. They are expecting to lose, they are panicking because they have no room for error and they feel the wild card slipping away. They need to find some pride.
I hate to sound like the pessimist, but I am getting closer each day to admitting to myself that the ole Yankee ship is finally ready to sink (meaning they are not going to get the AL East and I doubt the Wild Card).
I don’t think you can point your finger at anyone in particular. I just don’t see them playing as well as they might have been pegged to do on paper.
I hate losing as much as the next guy, but it had to happen sooner or later right? When you drop 5 of 6 to the Rockies and Giants, is it not reasonable for warm tears to well up in your eyes and self-pity cloud your mind?
It is a long road ahead and certainly not one that the Yankees can’t surmount. But it won’t be easy.
I anticipate many changes this offseason. Management, pitching, outfield, and bullpen. I see Abreu being let go, I see A-Rod walking, I see Torre retiring, I see the Rocket and Pettitte retiring once and for all. I also see the injection of youth.
Wow, that was a pessimistic last paragraph wasn’t it? Not all of that is bad, though. I think the Yankees could benefit from a fresh perspective, I think Abreu is paid too much, I hope A-Rod sticks around, but the amount of convincing it will take to keep Pettitte pitching seems drastic. And exactly how does one save such a terrible bullpen?
I hate the idea of even talking about 2008 when we are still supposed to be focusing on 2007. But doesn’t there come a time in every fan’s life when they are forced to acknowledge mediocrity?
Wolf — I totally agree with you about Proctor. He seemed to have ‘what it takes’ to be an ace out of the pen. I even had visions (delusions?) that he could be groomed to replace Mo eventually. Guess that’s not going to happen.
Problem was no one else “stepped” up and Proctor is Torre’s default reliever of choice. I hate that he overuses Proctor, but I can see the dilemma he’s faced with.
What I want to know is this, and I understand it may not be practical and it may not work, but can’t the bullpen be on a schedule similar to what they had in spring training? Lefty/righty matchups don’t seem to work out for them, so why not? None of what they have right now is really a true “situational” reliever, so what’s the difference who you bring in? But maybe if they could all get their arms back to some kind of re-starting point, they could become effective. Any thoughts here?
“I think last nights decision to bring (and leave) in Proctor might be a classic Torre to GM “See what I have to work with?!?!â€? move. ”
yeah, if only he had the greatest reliever of all time completely rested and ready to go.
Bryan where you at?? Bryan for GM from what he said I know he can turn it around BRYAN BRYAN
This losing streak is indicative of the 2007 Yankees. They are not a good ball club. The 9 game win streak that ending on 6/15 against the Mets has been made null and void by losing 6 of their last 7. Past Yankee teams would build on the momentum of a win streak, this team is different. There is a sense that these players are accepting their mediocre play.
I think it’s fair to say that beyond being a disappointing team, these Yankees may just be the worst team in baseball. Think how strong that statement is considering that when firing on all cylinders, they are probably one of the best. How many others teams have a collection of future Hall of Famers and All-Stars but remain a sub-500 ball club? Can Jeter stop giving “PC” and traditional answers to reporters’ questions and get PO’d already? I’m glad Petitte said something, but can someone else show a little passion?!
Every post-game interview I hear with players or Torre sounds the exact same. “we’re not doing ‘this’ or we haven’t been doing ‘that’.” I know all of the excuses, but what is being done to correct these issues? At the begining of the year when there were all of those leg injuries, the trainer was fired. Was it fair? I don’t know I’m not in the Yankee’s weight room, but at least SOMETHING was done. Things have been inconsistent (or consistent, depending on how you look at it) for almost three months now. To salvage the season, and at least finish strong, changes need to be made. Whether that be via trades, managerial or coaching changes, WHATEVER, just rock the boat already.
“I think last nights decision to bring (and leave) in Proctor might be a classic Torre to GM “See what I have to work with?!?!� move. �
Think it more of a message to owner: Time for a new Manager…
Job of a manager is to manage to win with ammo you have…
Yanks are giving up a walk almost every other inning. Last night was proof of how bad things are. There is no reasonable explanation from Joe or Cash on why Mariano was not in the game.
Changes are needed. Period.
murphydog –
100% agree; especially regarding Melky & Robby.
The Yankees this season are like the boxer that gets weakened with a ton of body jabs. So far, though, they’ve been spared a knock-out punch. They need a Rocky-type come-back, a pride-filled fight to the finish. Yeah, that’s what they need. (“gonna fly now…”)
Now that they’re underdogs, victory would be all the sweeter!
Murphydog,
A fine statement to be sure.
Abreu is not getting done, plain and simple. He is not the only person to blame, but he has his fair share.
On another note, I LOVE the idea of Derek Jeter saying some gnarly expletives to reporters to rile his teammates. He is a classy, great man and I love him, but in these tumultuous times, isn’t it the Captain that must rally the troops? I don’t know what is being said behind closed doors, perhaps he has already tried this, who knows, but if he hasn’t, he might do well to try it. Again, he is not the only person to blame…team team team.
dtron –
You’ll never get anything but PC answers from any Yankee. The media may be physically all over the clubhouse, but that team gives out very little information. Actually Jeter looked pissed last night and was quite edgy in his answers, even if he didn’t “say” anything much different from usual. They’re not going to call each other out in public. Not gonna happen.
“michael kay said on his radio program that sheff told cashman he would not play firstbase . period . not my words but your boy michael kay . i cant stand him personally .”
here, it has nothing to do with kay, it’s right here:
“NEW YORK — Gary Sheffield is angry that the New York Yankees plan to exercise his $13 million option for next season rather than allow him to become a free agent.
“This will not work, this will not work at all,” he was quoted as saying in Thursday’s editions. “I don’t want to play first base a year for them. I will not do that.”"
http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/9754796
BBMan, I won’t predict a sweep of this series because Wang is pitching the third game.
Vinny, as was pointed out to me in another thread, you do not know whether or not one player cares in an internet board. I think drinking overnight hurts a player, indeed, but who knows what he will be like — being the ONLY 2B player of the Yankees at the age of 24 — if he doesn’t get himself drunk at times. I’m not saying good things here. It is just that sometimes you have to take not only the technical part into account. You also have to risk for the personality of the player. Moreover, you need to do things to change it — help them to turn stable without having to fool around or drink.
As to laughing in the dugout when the team is losing … this is not a Red Sox board indeed, but I wonder if anybody brings on the same critique to Manny Ramirez. If you ask them not to laugh there, maybe they don’t know how to play anymore.
Concerning Sheffield, if one only saw his performance in the previous season, one would think that he is over. He played only 39 games in the season because of injury. Many times, it was said that he is ready, but he got into DL just a few games later. In that case, why isn’t it reasonable that he wished to stay but the Yankees think that they need to try out some other possibilities?
“Oh, one more thing that I think factors into the Sheffield situation is Giambi’s situation. Sheffield was expendable, contract-wise, and Giambi was not. Sometimes, it’s really that simple.”
yup. Cashman would love to have traded Giambi but he simply couldn’t.
you can thank George for that.
you can also thank him for the fact that Sheffield was here to begin with instead of Vlad.
there is only so much you can do before you clean up the mess you have.
It’s wrong to get rid of Torre now, but for different reasons than it would have been wrong to get rid of Torre earlier in the season. Earlier, getting rid of Torre meant that somebody better was in the wings and that the new manager would be sufficiently superior to Joe that firing Joe would be justified. Maybe that should have been done, but we’re way past that now. Bringing in your new manager for ’08 (and beyond) now, however, is just a bad idea.
“Shaking things up” makes sense if all the team needs is to be grabbed by the lapels and slapped. But it’s far worse than that. How does a new manager magically make our RF a reliable guy, give us a better than replacement level 1st baseman, act as back up catcher (actually Girardi might be able to), or fix Igawa and Moose? Let’s not even wonder how a new manager fixes the bullpen.
It sounds “rah, rah” to want to shake things up, but be careful what you ask for. Instead, let Torre take this season for the team and give your new manager a fresh start in the off season.
It gets worse as we have to face Bedard tonight. Ughhhhh
Even if they did bring up Britton and Rameriz, there is NO guarantee that Joe would use them. He’d let them ROT since they are not his guys!! He’ll continue to run Scott out there until his arm falls off. Doesn’t Joe know that Scott always takes the ball!! His arm could be hanging by a thread and he’ll take the ball.
Joe needs to go plain and simple, and Joe G needs to become manager! NOT DONNIE!! Donnie is a Torre clone! It will be no different!
The yanks gotta wait until the ’08 offseason. You guys seriously need to look at who will be free agents then. It is ridiculous(Santana and many others)
Let us not forget that the Orioles have to face the Rocket too.
Doreen-
You are absolutely right. The only difference now is that the team has been playing poorly for three solid months. When has that previously happened in the last 11 years? Desparate times call for desparate measures. I don’t need a public hanging of a teammate to show me there’s passion, but something different would certainly garner my trust that they care.
Maybe there’s an attitude that, “Hey its been a good run and it had to end sometime.” As fans we give players too much credit when it comes to caring. This may be cynical, but we have to remember that they’re rich, famous, successful, and (in some cases) have already won championships. Keeping this in mind, they are still human so a sense of complacency may have settled in. I don’t know, maybe I’m reaching here, but when I see this team take the field I don’t see the confidence that was once displayed – the desire to win day in and day out. Times have changed in Yankeeland.
Here is a question:
How many of you would be willing to give up two years of .500 baseball for a run at 3 titles over 5 years?
Essentially, how many of you could tolerate the Yankees being mediocre this year and next, but extremely good in 2009-2013 (as in, a potential threat to win it all in each of those 5 years)?
I am all for fielding a team that is competitive year in and year out, but you have to build a strong team first and then the rings will come. I WANT RINGS BABY!!!
Dtron,
FYI: you are going to get called out as to why you say they don’t show confidence or are complacent. I made the same comments 2 months ago and people tried to burn me at the stake.
Oh, and by the way, I TOTALLY agree with that statement.
I would sign right now for 2 years at 500 for 3 title runs between 2009-2013.
BTW, we need Peavy or Santanna in the rotation to accomplish this.
dtron –
The players are only human, but one would hope that the same competitive spirit that drove them to excel and become major league baseball players would still be there in spite of the money, etc. But, you’re right, they could as easily become complacent and satisfied with collecting a paycheck. You just hope the former outnumber the latter.
Larry,
The answer for me is, yes, in theory.
Doreen:
Rocky lost that first fight. Obviously the victory of the first movie was that Rocky went the distance. He overcame all doubts and obstacles and proved that he had the pride and heart of a champion. He was not just another bum from the neighborhood; he belonged in that ring.
It’s no sin to fight well and lose. But not fighting the best that you can in what may be the only shot you will ever have is just unacceptable. I think I have heard Jeter express the thought that it is a gift to be able to play shortstop for the Yankees and that he never takes it for granted because one day it will be gone. If a player is lucky, he’ll lose his opportunity due to age or injury and retire. If he’s like Thurman Munson, or Corey Lidle, however, the end is different.
As I suggested earlier, they need a “players only” meeting. At the end of the meeting, each player should be given a private moment in front of Thurman’s locker for silent reflection and some soul searching.
murphydog –
I realized as I was typing what I was typing that Rocky lost the first fight. But I kept it anyway. Because if the Yankees go down fighting, I can accept that, and go into the off-season with optimism. But if they don’t go down fighting, it has the prospects of being a very long winter.
I think it more possible that Cashman is thinking about Schilling rather than Peavy and Santanna. Schilling is older, isn’t he? LOL
At the end of the day, these 2007 Yankees need way more than soul searching and a players only meeting. They need to recognize they are accountable employees to an owner who has shelled out $200 million and expects a decent return.
Without question, Steinbrenner has given Torre too long to right this ship, and Torre hasn’t. As I’ve said many a time, Torre is a grandfather, he stopped being a manager long ago and is incapable of leading this team.
The Yankees have too much talent to have a record like they do. This points squarely at the manager and coaches.
The foundation for any good team is a manager and coaches who knows how to put players in a position to succeed. To do that they need a strategy for success and reasonable in-game management skills. Torre doesn’t demonstate this and I’m sorry, apparently Guidry and Long and the Bull pen coach do not either.
In order for the Yankees to turn the page and move forward they need to fire the manager.
Why not Cashman, give him one more year, he has communicated and is implementing a strategy that will pay off near term.
Hey guys, I know things look bleak at the moment. Last night’s number the third or fourth loss this year that has cost me hours of restful sleep. (Which, of course, begs an obvious question, wholly apart from the Yankees’ fate.)
Still, as my man, Ron Benbow admonished– thanks for the blog incidentally– “We shouldn’t lose faith.” Not just yet anyway.
Trading any of the core player on the team at this juncture reeks of panic. Cano, I concede, is having a middling season thus far. He’s tense and anxious at the plate and swings at every pitch whether in the strike zone or not. As Ron observed, he seems behind in the count in virtually every at-bat, and instead of driving the ball to left and center-field, as he does when he’s thriving, he’s pulling everything to right field.
Still, Cano is the best young player on the Yankees’ major league roster and probably has more potential than any position player in their entire system, save Tabata.
For those searching for hope and light amid this dark malaise, I offer the following:
As we all know, winning begins with quality starting pitching. And if we define a quality start by 6+ innings ceding three runs or less, the Yankees received another one last night; the third quality start on this otherwise woeful road-trip. This bodes well. And if the Yankees can bolster their bullpen and add a bat at first-base, there is no reason this team can’t win 50+ games after the All-Star break.
The bullpen, indeed, has been wretched. But the offense bears its share of blame as well. Bullpen work is taxing enough physically. But when a reliever constantly enters tie and one run games to hold leads, and anticipates that a single mistake will end in disaster, because his offense can’t bail him out, he avoids the strike zone or nibbles on the corners and induces walks. I suspect that Proctor and Bruney fell victim to this the past few games.
The third-hitter in the lineup, whomever Torre decides to put there, also needs to start hitting. Quite frankly, I don’t perceive Matsui a much better option there at the moment than Abreu. Matsui’s mired in a slump every bit as intractable as Abreu, and Matsui doesn’t earn walks with same frequency. (Matusi 28 BBs; Abreu 40 BBs.)
Were I Torre I would consider stacking his productive bats. That means batting Damon(if healthy), Jeter, A-Rod, and Posada in succession and not worrying whether lefties and righties alternate. In fact, tonight, against a tough lefty-handed pitcher like Bedard, don’t be surprised if Torre bats Jeter and AROD consecutively, and marshalls his right-handed bats by sitting Cano, playing Cairo at 2nd and Phillips at 1st.
Things look grim right now, I know. But there’s no reason why the Yankees can’t put together succession of streaks in the second-half that mirror the one they went on earlier this month. They have more talent than any of the other wild-card contenders. And the 1995 season should not be too distant a memory to exclude the possibility.
Matt Schweber:
Here’s a reason: the streak earlier this month was an aberration.
Want some other reasons? Start reading from the top…
Quotes of the Year:
“Actually before you send Bobby Aboo Aboo somewhere tie him to the wall in the batting cage put a catcher’s mask on him and drill him with 95 MPH heat from the pitching machine and don’t let him wear a cup either MAYBE HE WILL GROW UP AND ACT LIKE A MAN!!!”
“VOID GIAMBI’s contract I don’t care if you have to plant roids at his house do whatever it takes!!!!!!!!”
“Post Igawa up for Japanese teams to bid on him.”
HAHAHA those are good
You don’t do panic moves and make trades because of a tough stretch. You don’t ship guys out because of a bad half year. You don’t give up on talent because you’re pissed off and upset.
You can list me any stat or number about this team.
I don’t care. Not a stat geek.
I just know what I see. The pitchers walk too many guys.
And everyone knows in late innings when you walk someone, that someone scores.
I usually think that, as fans, we should be optimistic like Matt Schweber. I choose to hold the same attitude as he does now. Maybe the ideas are not exactly the same.
To be serious, I think there are two solutions to the 1B problem. First, acquire Seung Yeop Lee (or Seung Yeop Yee as the Japanese spell it) from Yomiuri Giants. I think he shared the most HR title with someone else in the World Baseball Classics (8 HR, I think). He tried last year but no MLB teams signed him. That’s strange to me. He is definitely the best Asian hitter at the moment, and it is obvious that he wishes very much to go to MLB. He broke the HR record in a single season held by Sadaharu Oh, a record that Matsui has never been close to. And his defense is reasonable. Finally, his wife is gorgeous.
The second idea, put A-Rod to 1B and find a 3B, or move Jeter to 3B and find a SS.
I think it a good idea to move the lineup around more seriously. I do not buy the idea that one player will feel more comfortable playing the 1st, the 3rd, the 7th or something. Just move them around so that they are regularly reminded that the boss, the GM, and the fans want wins. Moving A-Rod to the 3rd is a good idea. He could not protect the 3rd at bat too much because pitchers try their best to get the 3rd out so as to reduce possible damage. Meanwhile, there are not many protections behind him. Try to create more threats to the opponents by moving A-Rod forward.
Besides, move Cano to 1st before possibly trading him. He’s not slow. Ask him to run more so that he could not go to the game drunk. Although he has discipline problem as many people here accused him, he hit a lot of 2B and 3B when he hit. That’s a good thing for a 1st at bat. Give him more responsibility. If they really want to build the team around him, do that and teach him how to be the leader of the team.
From Rob Neyer…. Spot on ……
Torre’s bullpen blunderby: Rob Neyer
posted: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 | Feedback | Print Entry
I’m 100 percent sure that Joe Torre is trying to win.
Well, maybe 99 percent sure. I know just enough about quantum physics to know I can’t be 100 percent sure about anything.
But I’m 99 percent sure that Torre is trying to win. After all, someday he’s going to be elected to the Hall of Fame as a manager, and there aren’t many Hall of Fame managers who weren’t really, really trying to win.
You had to wonder last night, though. You had to wonder, while watching Scott Proctor walk home the winning run in the bottom of the ninth inning, with Mariano Rivera never having thrown a single pitch in the game.
As a friend wrote me last night, a few seconds after Corey Patterson trotted home with that winning run,
It’s just insane. There is no logical reason why, facing a situtation WHERE YOU CANNOT GIVE UP A RUN, OR YOU LOSE (and fall two games under .500), you would choose Proctor over Rivera. This is managing to a statistic — the save — rather than to win. According to Torre’s logic, you use Proctor when you simply can’t give up a run, and you use Rivera when you can. Absurd.
Indeed. I’ve been harping on this since (at least) Game 4 of the 2003 World Series, when the Yankees lost a 12-inning game and Rivera never left the bullpen. But Torre keeps making the same mistake, over and over and over again.
Last Saturday in San Francisco, the Yankees lost a 13-inning game. Rivera never left the bullpen. In fact, every relief pitcher pitched except the Yankees’ best relief pitcher.
Granted, Rivera had thrown 20 pitches the night before. So we’ll cut Torre some slack there. But last night? Rivera hadn’t pitched at all since that 20-pitch outing last Friday. Last night he was as well-rested as you’d ever want your closer to be. No slack on this one.
In Torre’s autobiography he wrote, “I’m more concerned about winning the game than trying to cover my butt.”
Really, Joe? Next time you’re on the road and the game’s tied in the ninth, prove it.
On how many threads do I have to read Rob Neyers blog entry?
No one in building the team around Cano. That is ridiculous to say.
As always, the team is built around Jeter, Posada, Mariano and no one else.
Cano is expendable. He gets hits but in run scoring opportunities he drops in the rankings a lot. He has no discipline at the plate. Pitchers throw him junk and he will swing at it. He gets on base, but being he is at the back of the lineup, no one is there to bring him home.
Move him into the 2nd spot and Jeter to the 3rd. Abreu needs to bat 9th.
Damon
Cano
Jeter
A-Rod
Posada
Hideki
Cairo
Melky
Abreu
He is at the back of the order, so there is no pressure on him. Put some pressure on him so he knows he has to be more disciplined at the plate. Only way to fix his lacksadasical way.
Carlos Pena is who the Yanks need to get to take over 1st base. It’s been rumoured and a rumor I like. He is a get on base kinda kid and hits HR’s. He is quick and agile. Cheap to get.
As for the relievers, the Rangers are the only ones who are going to deal and Otsuka and Gagne would be a major upgrade over the crap we have now. Look for the rest in our farmsystem and get rid of everyone but Vizcaino, Proctor, and Mo.
Otsuka, Gagne, Proctor, Britton, Vizcaino, Mo is a nice bullpen to have. Even keeping Myers would be fine, but he is not a lefty specialist so stop with that already.