The Sunday links
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- July
- 1
The Yankees managed only one hit and were beaten by Oakland. Brian Heyman has the story.
Scott Proctor blew up on the mound then torched his equipment on the field. This notebook also has updates on Kyle Farnsworth and Derek Jeter.
Proctor has allowed five runs on 10 hits in his last 4.1 innings without a strikeout. He also has handled his setbacks badly, dropping f-bombs on camera and then putting on that fiery display yesterday. He has a minor-league option remaining and it may be time to send him down to get his act together.
The Sunday baseball notes focus on who could replace Joe Torre next season.
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on Sunday, July 1st, 2007 at 3:14 am by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
Paging Dr. Melfi …
“A little while after he spoke, there was a small fire going just outside the dugout. Proctor was burning some of his equipment, according to an MLB.com report.”
I seem to recall that when Giambi played “Ten Questions with Pete Abe” he was asked who he feared in baseball, from a fist fight perspective. If memory serves me correctly I think Jason named Farnsworth and Proctor. Jason apparently knows his psychos.
After watching Farnsworth’s two recent displays (shattering the bat and throwing the glove) and reading about Scotty the Torch yesterday, I am prompted to ask whether these two guys are one damaged chromosome away from being cat killers?
Peter Abraham wrote in today’s column:
“Firing Torre before then would be senseless and cruel. More than anyone else, Torre is responsible for turning a going-nowhere franchise back into the Yankees.”
With all due respect, your comments are provably false.
First, the logical extension of your comments is that Torre is bigger than the team.
Newsflash: He is not.
Firing Torre now (and replacing him with Girardi) is the only way to attempt to salvage the season. Consequently, doing so is an imperative. There is too much at stake to give Torre a pass, or to sacrifice a season to spare his feelings. He should have been fired after last season anyway.
Second, anyone with a sense of history knows that Torre isn’t the person who is most responsible for turning the franchise around. That person is Gene Michaels.
He is the one who laid the foundation for the teams that won four rings. He is the one who made New York a safe place for the development of Bernie, Jeter, Posada, Rivera, and Pettitte. He is the one who put his job on the line by telling George that there was no market for Bernie when he was ordered to trade him. He was the person who transformed the Yankees from a destination where no free agents wanted to play to a free agent magnet. He did that by signing good clubhouse guys like Boggs and Key, and trading away bad character guys like Mel Hall, who cruelly teased a young Bernie. He is the one who traded Kelly for O’Neill, thereby adding a true warrior to the roster.
And don’t overlook Buck Showalter’s contribution in that transformation process. The Yankees were a joke under Stump Merrill and Bucky Dent. Buck re-instilled discipline, hard work, and pride in being a Yankee.
Granted, Torre had a role, but it pales in comparison to Michael’s role (or that of Rivera, or Jeter or O’Neill or Pettitte), if facts and reality matter.
I thank Torre for his contributions. But all things must pass, and the time for Torre to pass from the scene is long overdue.
He must be replaced now.
The Yankees are stuck with what they have for the year. They are not going to make any big moves without trading the few prospects they have which they would be crazy to do. There best bet is trade what they have that is tradeable at the big league level which isn’t alot and get some near major league prospects. Then move on. The articles in the Post and Daily News are good today about the condition of the Yankees. They are aging fast and must do something or they will be pretty bad for a long while.
Cashman recognized this last year. Look at the trades in the off season. He was trying to get what he could for aging stars. And that si why he won’t trade any quality prospects now.
Nice Sunday Notes column, Peter.
Future Yankee manager: how about former A’s skipper, Ken Macha. By all accounts a good baseball man.
I don’t think the Lombardi-Torre comparison is apt, as Vince was both General Manager and head coach. He also built the team from scratch and without free agency.
The Yankees went to the World Series 4 straight years after Casey Stengel was discharged. We need a good manager, but more importantly we need a transfusion; which will be problematic until the arterial plaque is removed. I dreaming of salsa christmas, with Zambrano and Santana.
The Boss has a short interview in today’s News
Quote from Ron Guidry in Ny dailynews
“Maybe they’re just dead tired,” pitching coach Ron Guidry said of Proctor and Myers. “We abused them the first month and a half of the season.”
Proctor’s frustration was obvious even before his burning ceremony. He said he would understand if Torre had lost confidence in him.
“I wouldn’t trust (myself) right now the way I am throwing,” Proctor said. “It’s pretty pathetic.”
Are you kidding me? They’re just dead tired? No, just say Proctor and Myers are both s*ck .
the yankees finally WOKE UP and called up edwar ramirez
great article on him…will clueless joe who needs trust to be earned ever pitch him?
that is the greater question?
http://www.thetimes-tribune.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=18538946&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=416049&rfi=6
Future looks even worse than present
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/07/01/2007-07-01_pity_the_pinstripes.html
Bill Madden says Future looks even worse than present. Omg, Madden is clueless sob. Is it because Yankees doesn’t have position players for the future? I can’t believe this guy still have a job as journalist. The Yankees have Tabata, Carlos Urena, Austin Jackson, Brett Gardner, Vecchinonacci. Did I mentioned that They also drafted Carmen Angellini in this year draft? Can someone please email this clown Bill Madden bmadden@edit.nydailynews.com.
Madden is right on some things and wrong on others in the column.
He clearly has no idea of the farm system (although he is correct in saying it takes time for young pitchers to contribute). However, let’s look at the Yankees objectively for a moment.
Of the 6 contributing players on this team: Jeter, Wang, Arod, Posada, Rivera, and Pettitte, only Jeter and Wang are sure to be back next year.
Posada and Mo are free agents. I love how everyone assumes they will both be back. But, you know the old saying about what happens to you when you “assume”.
Suppose neither guy wants to play for the new manager or be part of a rebuilding process? With the team in complete freefall at the moment, I don’t think its a given either will be back next year.
Arod, as we all know, has an opt out clause.
Pettitte has a player option for next year. See Rivera and Posada for the reasons he may not be back.
There is also the question of age on Mo, Posada and Pettitte. Less so on Arod, obviously.
The Yankees are presently an old, unathletic team. As much a factor into their freefall as anything else. Do they continue on this pace or do they begin getting younger at key (the outfield) spots? Lots of legitimate questions to ponder.
There is no way to sugarcoat this…...the team is in VERY bad shape right now and it could extend into next season.
Its why some of us have been so adamant about our feelings about this team and why keeping the young arms, and begin to use them, are very, very important to the future success of the franchise.
Its why the second half of the season should not be spent making dumb trades and trying to save a lifeless team. It should be spend beginning the process of mainstreaming guys you are looking at to help in the future (Ramirez, Britton, Horne, Kennedy, and Chamberlain) and working overtime to convince Arod, Pettitte, Posada and Rivera to stick around.
There is a lot that’s broken (team spirit, for one) and one trade isn’t going to fix it. Its going to take time, IMO.
Might as well use the second half of the season to start and it may speed up the process.
Can you please explain to me how exactly Don Mattingly has “earned” the right to manage the premier franchise in professional sports? How does picking splinters out of your behind for a couple of seasons and saying “How about a bunt here?” for one disastrous year qualify this guy to manage the Yankees? What has he ever said or done to show he has a clue about game strategy? Enough with the nostalgia hires. The road of baseball history is littered with the carcasses of former star players who couldn’t hack it as managers. Hiring Mattingly will be the crowning mistake in Cashman’s reign of error.
Stephen Goldman puts it best re Torre and why it’s time for Joe to go. Here: http://www.nysun.com/article/57500
He also offers a funny (and accurate) takedown of the first base defense cheerleaders (and Joe):
“Throw in the weird obsession with first-base defense and you have a manager lost at sea. Think about this: say your super-glove at first base makes a great stop or scoop that your average or below average player would miss roughly every other game, all season long. That’s 81 singles you’ve saved. Now, in truth the number isn’t anywhere near that high, but let’s just go with it here. On average, about a third of baserunners score, so you’re talking about 27 runs saved over the course of a full season. Now say that you’re defensively below-average first baseman hits 30 home runs… See where this is going?”
Heh.
“Torre is responsible for turning a going-nowhere franchise back into the Yankees.â€?
If Whoa didn’t mention it, I would have. Give credit to where it is due—-to Buck Showalter and Gene Michael.
The 1993 Yankees (in Buck’s 2nd year) won 88 games. They were tied with Toronto for 1st place with 21 games left. Had the wild card format been in effect that year, they would have been the wild card.
In 1994, the Yanks had the best record in the A.L. at the time of the strike.
1995—a rough year, but a strong finish (helped by the Angels collapse) gave the Yanks the wild card and their first playoff appearance since 1981.
1993-1995 wasn’t a “going nowhere” franchise, and Torre wasn’t there in those years.
Give Joe the credit he deserves for the four WS titles, but he didn’t turn the team around. That belongs to Gene and Buck.
Jonathan….don’t s*** with me, I just woke up….Did the Yanks really do what I’ve been screaming at them to do for the past month? Call up Edwar? ABOUT FRIGGIN’ TIME!
From what I’ve seen and read, most sportswriters and sportscasters covering the Yanks know NADA about the farm system because they are 100% focused on the team. If you ask someone like Francesa, he will have no idea who Edwar Ramirez is, or what he has done—-but he will act as if he does.
I wrote a column two years ago of how 1965 could be repeated….and soon. I only wish the Yanks’ front office could have read it to avoid what I predicted actually happening. I’m a diehard fan, but believe in the saying that those who don’t remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
In this way, SJ44 is correct. Some friends and myself have been advocating the same. Forget about a quick fix for this year, or even the next two. Sacrifice a year or two in order to insure the next decade. As for me, I am looking at the arms and the system and thinking 2010 and the next decade.
The biggest mistake is thinking you are a player or two away when you are in actuality at least five players away. Thinking you are one or two away ensures mediocrity for several years. Realizing you are five to ten players away-
and doing something about it-will ensure long-term success.Let Joe finish the year. But make sure the next manager and pitching coach know how to develop young pitchers. Guidry’s ability is pretty much unknown. Do neutral observers has a positive or negative opinion on Gator?
Ramirez is up…but Torre won’t use him unless the game is a blowout, like he did with Britton who pitched great and was sent right back down so even though Ramirez is on the roster don’t look for him to pitch if Torre is still managing….Carlos Pena was playing 1B for Columbus last year 105 games and did pretty good, then Yank released him, now he is playing well for the DRays and mentioned as a possible trade …great job Cashman, we could have kept him for this year..he plays great defense and hits better than Minky and was not coming off surgery…do you plan for the future at all?????...can we please have Gene Michael back running this….Torre thanks for all you have done but your time is up…bring in Bobby Valentine or Giradi and the youth, trade off some guys and get ready for next year….Mattingly needs more time to learn, he is not ready yet…..I am OK with not making the playoffs, but not OK with trying to be mediocre and watching guys not trying and taking 3 pitch at bats, get some guys up here(Britton, Duncan, play Phillips more) who want to fight and lets get some positives out of this season before its too late….
Where is the official verification that Edwar is up. Give a link to something.
Without that, ...
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07012007/sports/yankees/digging_deep_for_bullpen_help_yankees_george_king.htm
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07012007/sports/yankees/digging_deep_for_bullpen_help_yankees_george_king.htm
courtesty of george king ny post
Thanks. I pick up a Post on my way to church, but that is still an hour away, and this probably won’t even be in my edition.
Doing searches of transactions (probably brought him up but not official for a few hours yet?) turned up nothing.
I was trying to go on MLB or the Yanks’ official website for official confirmation, and found nothing as of yet.
Thanks again for the link.
I’d much rather watch Edwar, see how he does, and root for him to succeed than to be forced to watch Villone and some others anymore. I hope he gets a legit chance to show what he can or cannot do.
BEST comments ever here guys, really excellent participation.
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On a little bit of a light note, there’s a nice article on Jorge in the Star Ledger today.
Star Ledger Posada Article
Mike S.
I also checked the SWB website and the Yankees site and there’s been no update as of yet. Ramirez is still listed on the SWB roster so far.
I’ve heard Madden speak on Charlie Steiner’s show on XM, and he is always negative about the Yankees. Even when things aren’t this bad. So, the doomsday tone of his article is not surprising.
Which is not to say that he’s altogether wrong.
I personally will still hold out at least the slimmest glimmer of hope for something positive to emerge from this season. Maybe it will be a resurgence; maybe it will be Phil Hughes returning and in good form; maybe it will be success for Ramirez or another rookie.
I am really torn about Torre’s status. I was ready for him to be let go after the playoffs last year. Once they started this new season with him, though, it becomes problematic to let him go in the middle, for the reason Pete states, respect, but also because I don’t think a new manager will be able to get much more out of these players. The exception to that might be if a new manager would be willing to bench certain players or at least try some new strategies. Personally, I sure wish Torre would do that himself, but he seems too stuck in the way things had gone for the team in the past. And too stuck on the idea that the veterans don’t need a jumpstart of some kind.
As most everyone agrees, there are a handful of players performing at or above expectations. They are mainly the core group plus Wang & A-Rod (I include Pettitte in the core). The rest do not have the history and so really do not “deserve” Torre giving them the benefit of the doubt. But, how do you have one set of rules for this core, and another set for the rest?
Whoa, Keith
Great points, I believe you both are spot on.
No question, the Yankees have to do what it takes to lay the foundation for sustained success, while recognizing that just 1 or 2 players will not make a meaningful impact in 2007.
Torre is and has been the wrong guy for this team since the debacle of 2004. He is comatose, a grandfather, not a manager, and sorely ill equipped to lead this franchise.
Glaring words from Guidry saying he (Proctor) was abused the first 1.5 months of the season. Whose decision was it to abuse Proctor, and Villone/Proctor (2006) and Sturtze and others in 2005? None other than Torre, who shreds his pitching favorites and leaves others to waste away on the bench, Basak this year, Britton earlier.
Joe torre was the perfect manager for those “pushbutton” self starters of the mid to late 90’s. Those players were driven internally. It is so obvious that Joe Girardi should be the choice.
Jonathan,
I think Girardi will be fine with the players he never played with. I am thinking, as professional as that “core” group is, how would it be to be managed by someone they played with? Maybe it wouldn’t be a problem, but it is a bit of a concern.
I’m sorry, but that column by Pete was nothing more but an embarassing ass-kiss to Clueless Joe.
If the team has given up and cashed it in for this season (which Posada pretty much said yesterday), why shouldn’t Girardi (no Mattingly please) be brought it to take stock of what needs to be done for next year and beyond?
totally agree
Just an observation, but has anyone else put it together that the Yanks have not gone the distance since Don Zimmer left?
Perhaps all we need is Zim’s skull in the dugout so Derek can rub it before taking the field. Forget trades and signings, let’s rent Zim’s head for the second half!
Re: Posada’s comments
I remember when Gene Michael traded a young Roberto Kelly because Kelly gave away entire weeks and months of at-bats and games by simply not trying and playing hard. (That was the O’Neill deal.) I wonder if it’s time to start making some trades in that same light. It’s hard from TV to tell who’s in that category, vs. who’s simply not succeeding (I hope I spelled that right). I wonder who would go.
If the news about Ramirez at SWB is true, that’s exciting. Who knows how he will do, but at least it starts to shake things up. We’re getting a little heavy on pitchers, maybe time to unload some of them. Farnsy, Myers, maybe Villone, there are some teams looking for bullpen help and are always willing to take a chance. Who knows, maybe a change of scenery will help them, too.
Jeter always says that outsiders have no idea what goes on in the clubhouse. But, man, am I curious!
Just an observation, but has anyone else put it together that the Yanks have not gone the distance since Don Zimmer left?
Perhaps all we need is Zim’s skull in the dugout so Derek can rub it before taking the field. Forget trades and signings, let’s rent Zim’s head for the second half!
I think he had a lot of influence on Torre and the lack of a good bench coach may be hurting him.
Nothing on the Yanks’ website about Edwar Ramirez being promoted. Though the site may be lagging, it wouldn’t be the first time that reporters have gotten a story wrong.
Over the last two months, I haven’t seen a single substantive defense of Torre’s managing strategy. No one can provide any meaningful support for his decisions because they are terrible and lower the team’s chance of winning.
Even Pete’s article doesn’t defend Torre’s managing ability, but appeals to the past and “gratitude.” I’m grateful for Torre’s contributions to this team, but I care about the team more than I care about any individual on it, including Torre. And right now, Torre is damaging the team by making inexplicably bad decisions on a regular basis.
I don’t advocate firing Torre, but not because I owe him a debt of gratitude. He is paid millions, will go into the HOF, and is owed nothing by anyone. I don’t advocate firing him because the team is already out of contention and making a managerial change now won’t help.
If Ichiro ever becomes a Red Sox he will surely hit .400 in that bandbox know as Fenway.
Harley, I’ve never been much of a Goldman fan…and you’re quote makes it all the more evident why. Consider the fact that the Yankees sub-par defensive first baseman isn’t hitting 30 home runs and the Yankees have the worst record in the majors in one-run games…See where this is going?
Hopefully Clueless Joe actually uses Edwar and doesn’t keep him in the pen a la britton.
CGramazio, no, not sure where you’re going. We have a horrible record in 1-run games (and close games in general), but that’s because of many factors. Phelps failing to make a scoop at some point may be one of them, but many other factors (including poor managing and relief) are a lot more significant. The whole point of that Goldman article is that it’s silly to overvalue first base defense at the expense of first base offense. Right now we have no offense at first and the problem becomes more obvious every day.
IMO, firing Torre accomplishes nothing right now but give some folks some bloodletting they want so desperately.
The right time to fire him would have been after last year’s post-season, in which he did a HORRIBLE job of managing and embarrassed the team’s best player by hitting him 8th in the biggest game of the year.
Now, let’s be honest, what is it going to accomplish by firing him now? Does anybody really believe that’s the thing that will enable this team to break its season-long malaise?
Its not going to save the season.
The ONLY reason (IMO) to fire him is to hire Mattingly on an interim basis to “clear him out” of the manager’s derby for next year. Since, IMO, he won’t be any better than Torre at this point.
IMO, the right guy to be the next manager is Joe Girardi, under two conditions. One, they go younger, especially within the pitching staff. Girardi showed last year his strength as a manager was working with younger pitchers.
Two, he isn’t saddled with all the negativity of this year’s team. IMO, Girardi and this year’s Yankee team are a toxic mix.
If the philosophy is still going to be, “all star at every position, and go old”, Girardi is the wrong guy for the job.
Why put Girardi in the crosshairs of a team he has had zero input in putting together? Makes no sense to me.
IMO, the new manager has to have his own team. That will only occur in the off-season, when they begin to piece together a new ballclub and (hopefully) new philosophy.
IMO, you let Torre finish the year and move on. Firing how, unless its a political move to clear Mattingly out of the mix, won’t make this team better.
What’s wrong with this team is so beyond the strategy stage right now, its not funny.
No question, Torre’s in game strategy has not been good this year. However, even if he was brillant in that area, this team still would be underachieving in a big way.
When 3/4 of your roster is underperforming, some in a HUGE way, the strategy stuff takes a back seat.
Gratitude? Reminds me of the old saying, “Hope is not a strategy.” Well gratitude isn’t either.
SJ44 nailed it.
CGramzio, I’d suggest reading the whole piece. Cuz at the moment I genuinely don’t think you ‘see’ where it’s going. The current loss of offense would, obviously, come into play in plenty of those one-run games, yes? The goal is to score runs and prevent runs. Goldman makes a fairly simple and easy-to-understand case for why playing a no-hit all-glove first baseman is a net loss for the team in this regard, particularly a team with the Yankee’s financial advantages.
But hey, at least YES is running a nice piece on how well Shelley Duncan is playing. In the minors.
Oh, and as for Joe? The only reason to keep him on is if you have conceded the season. In the latter case, sure, why not give him a chummy victory lap and hope that Cash is busy rebuilding for next year. But again. Only if you’re conceding this season.
I’d rather not.
SJ44’s post is dead on. I don’t think Mattingly is the answer either and making him an interim manager would give the team to find out for sure. Other teams do it; why not the Yanks?
Doreen: Madden is very good friends with Lou Piniella going back to 70s when Lou came here. Madden was the writer who broke the story that Piniella was coming back to the Bronx last winter, which blew up in his face. So maybe Madden is ticked at Cashman (or Torre)?
May the rebuilding begin!
Madden is dead on about lack of position players in the Yankee org and reaching down into the lower minor leagues. The only argument I have is that the Yankees now have some chips (pitching prospects) to use in trades and they will always be active in the FA market to get what they need. So to say that this is like 1965 is ludicrous. The Yankees will spend and trade their way out of this, but keep their core pitching gems, ie, Hughes and Joba and Wang.
Positions of concern:
#1 : There is no legitimate 1B in the org that you can play everyday for the next 15 years. Eric Duncan was going to be that player but he has been a monumental bust. There is no one in the minors that you can 100% say is going to be your 1B for 2009 and beyond. That’s why a trade for Texeira is imperative if they don’t have to give up Joba or Hughes. Anyone else in the minors I say is fair game for Texeira.
2. CF – Melky is not the answer, Damon is done, Gardner may be if you don’t want any power at that position. If you want a leadoff hitter (which would be redundant with Damon in the lineup) then Gardner’s your man otherwise there is no one in the org save maybe Urena or Jackson (they are both at least 2-3 years away at best). This has current Minnesota Twin Tory Hunter written all over it, (if they can get him in FA).
3. LF – Matsui is past his prime, Dunn would look good in LF (he’s only 27) if Yankees can get him from the Reds for some B minor leaguers. With the short porch in right Dunn could put up 40+ Hr’s a year and share DH with Matsui and Damon.
4. RF- No way in hades do the Yankees take their team option on Abreu. Melky is not the answer. This will be a tough position to fill. If you want take Hunter in FA he may share CF and RF with Melky and Damon but and with Matsui if Dunn is also signed. Tabata is the heir apparent but will he be ready by late 08 or early 09 and does he have the power that a corner position requires?
5. C – There are no viable candidates to replace Posada in the org at this time in the short term, save maybe Cervelli and he is coming back to earth and is only in A ball. This is another position that the Yankees will have to look outside of the org to fill for the shorterm. Look for Cervelli in 2009.
The pitching will be the strength of this team in 2008 and beyond save for injuries
A starting 5 of:
Hughes
Wang
Joba
Kennedy (if not used in trades)
Kontos/Horne/Marquez/Betances/McAllister/Clippard/
FA
FA
RP:
Mo
Cox
Sanchez
Ramirez
Henn (if not used in trades)
Wordekemper
Kennard
Whelan
Britton
FA
FA
FA
Starting lineup for 2009:
Gardner-CF 25/26 years old
Jeter-SS 35 years old
Texeira – 1B 29 years old
A-Rod (I think he stays put) 34 years old
Hunter/Tabata – RF 20 years old
Matsui – DH 38 years old
Posada – C 38 years old
Dunn – LF 30 years old
Cano – 2B 27 years old
Bench:
Cervelli- C
Curtis: OF
Melky : OF
Gonzalez: SS/2B/3B
1B: E. Duncan
Mike Hardgrove just said at a press conference that there are no dark or sinister reasons for his resignation…
Translation: There is some dark/sinister reason for his resignation…