The Sunday links
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- July
- 15
The Sunday baseball notes takes a closer look at Alex Rodriguez’s options if he opts out. His best bet might be to stay right where he is.
Bobby Abreu drove in five runs as the Yankees beat the Rays. Chien-Ming Wang, Ron Villone and Mariano Rivera pitched well.
Kenny Lofton backed the racism claims of Gary Sheffield. This notebook also has info on Rivera, Jorge Posada, Kei Igawa, Joba Chamberlain, a new toy for the captain and a football coach stopping by to visit.
Odd (1:40 p.m.) game time today. Back around 12:30 with the lineups and updates.
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on Sunday, July 15th, 2007 at 3:15 am by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
Pete WTF are they doing to Edwar Ramirez I mean what’s the damn point of stunting his progress in the ML level. Does Torre even know he’s on the team ? or did one bloop basehit put him on the send him back to AAA or ban him from the mound boat like they did w/ Chris Britton.
Actually, Sheffield said that he didn’t think Torre was a racist.
Torre totally mishandled Lofton’s playing time in 2004, considering that he was the best defensive CFer on the team by far, but Torre mishandles a lot of player deployment issues.
He’s still a very decent human being and certainly not a racist.
Brandon’s comment illustrates the point.
Torre didn’t use Britton and now he doesn’t use Ramirez even though Farnsworth and Myers blow chunks.
Britton is white and Ramirez is Hispanic, yet Torre treats them both the same because they have no experience even though they can’t be worse than his lousy relievers who have experience.
Which proves that Torre is an ageist but not a racist.
Cashman needs to step up and terminate this problem.
It could be the Yankees are racist? Is it possible? Why not because anything is? You’ve got different types of people in the organization, different perspectives. If the comments weren’t about Joe Torre, then who in the Yankees’ organization is this about?
Here is my beef: If there were a problem, why didn’t Sheff or Lofton address it when they were part of the team, either in-house or out-house (media)? Things like this, especially when you look at Sheff’s history, crop up after people leave teams.
I really don’t care about WTF Sheff talk to the media….. He is a good player and that is the end of the story.
Abreu was the MVP for this game and will continue to be the key of success in the rest of the games this season. Posada, Jeter , A-Rod, and Matsui will need to do well every game but Melky and Cano will need to prove that they belong to the New York city.
Wang was not at his best today and got lucky. He needs to work on his slider and the command of his sinker. He will need his change up soon! He will be a good pitcher only if he can control his slider and change up along with his sinker.
Peter – your article on ARod and his contract future is
dead on the money (no pun intended). ARod’s best financial offer will come from the Yankees.
If he leaves the Yankees he will be doing so for LESS money.
Well, we’ll need not let Kei pitch anymore. Torre did something right by not letting Abreu hit against Kazmir. I hope Cabrera is ok since he didn’t start because of being slightly sick.
Pete Feng—Melky and Cano already proved that they can play in New York. The difference is that the former has plate discipline but the latter doesn’t. Cano’s plate discipline is horrible.
Ok.. We hear from Womack and Lofton; guys who didn’t fare well under Torre.
I would be interested to hear what Strawberry and Gooden have to say on the topic.
The article about Loften says he’s out of baseball now. Since when? I thought he was with Texas.
oopps.. I reread the article. No comments were made by Womack. Only Lofton referencing him.
Also, it mentions that Womack is out of baseball, not Lofton.
Jim M,
What did Womack say?
In fact, Rodriguez is ‘a phone of the highest order’ and that is why he will chase the $$$$$ – because he always has.
OOps I misquoted you—it’s PHONY, not PHONE – of course.
Both Womack and Lofton sucked—I mean underperformed—so they’re whining now about mistreated. Selfish athletes rarely take responsibility for their own actions and the resulting consequences. Shef just another one of that breed. Skin color has nothing to do with it. Remember the howling from Bubba after he was traded?
PLEASE.
Didn’t Lofton stink up CF for about 60 games when they were trying to transition Bernie out? As I remember, he was awful. And Womack?
Geez. Are they any GOOD players who aren’t certifiable LUNATICS that can speak to this rampant racism of Torre’s that has gone unmentioned for 12 seasons?
Lofton was mishandled….he should have led off and played CF with Bernie DHing but Joe had other ideas.Womack just plain sucked.Lofton is another who should just shut up and play.His a hole comments overshadow a good career.
From the perspective of a Red Sox fan, I think that Sheffield’s sniping at Torre is uncalled for, and almost certainly unfounded. However …..
JeffG …. I agree with you. I’d feel more comfortable supporting Torre if a few current or former minority players would dismiss Sheffield’s accusations. After a while, their silence becomes deafening. Where’s the outrage??
There’s a song in the Broadway musical “The Wedding Singer,” called “All About the Green.” In the end, I think Alex Rodriguez is all about the green, all about securing the best deal. If that’s the case, the Yankees will be the ones “showing the money.” I’d be surprised if A-Rod walked away from the money and the monument and the accolades that would come from playing out the rest of his career in NY.
Still, stranger things have happened. Right?
Abreu had a great game last night. I’m so hopeful that he and Matsui have turned a corner. Abreu’s not going to hit .500 for the rest of the season, but he’s not going to hit .100 either. Damon looked good on the bases, now he’s just got to start getting more production at the plate. Wang continues to impress.
I am getting the impression that perhaps Joe Torre did (or does) treat some players differently than others. My gut feeling is that the race of the player was coincidental. Perhaps Lofton’s situation was more a reflection of the fact the Joe had a soft spot for Bernie, giving Bernie the benefit of the doubt because of his contributions to the team over time. Lofton didn’t have that history, and that, combined with a disappointing performance, led to the way he was “mis-treated.” He wasn’t going to get the same chances as someone who’d already earned Torre’s “trust.”
Joe does the same thing when handling his bullpen. He clearly has his “favorites”—people he depends on based on past performance, and it is very difficult for someone new to break into that “inner circle.” I think that may be Joe’s flaw, not racism.
“If the Yankees make trades this month, they plan on using their veteran relievers and/or lesser prospects (think Matt DeSalvo) to try and make incremental upgrades at backup catcher, first base and their bench. They believe that free-agents-to-be such as Mike Myers and Luis Vizcaino could be replaced adequately by Triple-A options such as Sean Henn and Chris Britton, and that eventually Jeff Karstens and/or prospects Joba Chamberlain and Ross Ohlendorf could be moved from the rotation to the pen. A trade of Myers or Vizcaino to the pen-hungry Phillies for another free-agent-to-be, backup catcher Rod Barajas, fits the current Yankees thinking.”
NY Post by Joel Sherman
Hopefully, some type of improvement for the bench will happen.
No surprise with Loften’s comments but there’s a glaring coincidence with him and Sheffield. They’ve both been with numerous teams and that speaks volumes. They’ve burned a lot of bridges.
E-Roc: Before sending Vizcaino packing, consider Farnsworth. Vizcaino has corrected his pitching flaws and Farnsworth has no interest in correcting his.
The difference is that Vizcaino doesn’t make as much money as Farnsworth and he’ll be a FA at the end of the season.
Farnsworth has $5.5M coming to him for next season and right now isn’t as effective as Vizcaino.
Unfortunately, I don’t think they will be able to get rid of Farnsworth.
Brian (Red Sox Fan),
Just speculating here, but perhaps the silence is an indication of the clownishness of these comments from malcontents.
It’d be nice to here from Charlie Hayes (who took over for the very white Wade Boggs at the end of ‘96), Strawberry, Gooden, Tom Gordon, etc. But the ones making the accusations are the ones who need to offer some proof. OTherwise, they are libeling Torre and the Yankees, and should be punished for it.
Put up or shut up Sheff.
re: Farnsworth—he might be valuable to someone like the White Sox, whose bullpen is even more of a disaster than Farnsworth.
It’s rough though. I’d definitely like to see Britton or Ramriez get more work. At least it wouldn’t sting as much if they have a terrible inning, or at least it won’t be costing as much to have a crappy reliever.
Alan- I do agree with u.
Joe didn’t care for Lofton because Kenny came to replace Bernie – not because Loften was black. Hell, if Bernie had shown up to spring training in March he’d probably still be playing practically everyday in CF.
I am sorry, but this story about Lofton makes me even angrier than the one about Sheffield. I remember specifically, when Lofton was signed he was so giddy. The Post or News had a small article on him and he said something to the effect of “I don’t care where they paly me, I’ll do whatever they want. Heck, I’ll park cars if they want me to.” I remember, the article had a photo of him in the front row of a Nets game.
I remember thinking that this guy has a good attitude and it’s those kinds of flexible, non-egomaniacal players that made the dynasty. Well, we all know what happened next.
Racist Yankees: Do u need a hug?? You sound like person who’s depressed because your favorite shows are coming to an end. It’s ok. Go and watch “Heroes”. Hell, “Law & Order” is still going strong. Go and watch that.
The one thing a lot of other papers are saying is that if the Red Sox pursue Arod – it’s not out of the realm of possibility with Schiling ($13 mil) and Lowell ($9 mil) coming off the books and Manny ($20 mil) coming off at the end of 2008. That $42 mil freed up. They’d also probably trade Lugo away giving Arod SS back and move Youk to third. Again, it’s $42 mil from three players to one, but the Sox have farm depth to cover any positional losses including one of the top arms in the minors and best OF as well. Clay Buchholz replaces Schilling, Arod replaces Lugo, Youk replaces Lowell, and Jacoby Ellsbury taking over for Manny. It’s not that unreasonable.
“Before sending Vizcaino packing, consider Farnsworth. Vizcaino has corrected his pitching flaws and Farnsworth has no interest in correcting his.”
If you want to get something back in value, you need to give value. Why would any one take Fransworth and give something back? Also, his remaining salary is a bi impediment.
The proposal by E-ROC was a good one with good alternatives suggested
If A-Rod leaves Yankees, he will go to NL and the viable teams are Dodgers and Cubs, who would offer him the money as well as good legacy.
Lofton: “All I can say is, Sheffield knows what he’s talking about. That’s all I’m going to say.”
Well, not exactly what I call detailed and persuasive corroborating testimony.
Call me crazy, but my life experience tells me that disgruntled former employees and their bosses, regardless of color, have a way of seeing things very differently. Did Torre treat players differently? He does so all the time. He is renowned for trying to get inside each player’s head to motivate them. Does a failure to apply a one-size-fits-all management style means racism? No.
But maybe this is the point, regardless of whether you think Torre is a racist based on this latest Sheffield incident: It is the unfortunate legacy of racism in a game that purposely kept African American men out of its ranks by way of a “gentleman’s agreement” until Jackie Robinson broke through. A belief that racism still exists and might influence some people in baseball is not a completely irrational thought, although I would like to believe it is an inaccurate one. I don’t think that Sheff made up this perspective and that his real feelings are otherwise. I find Sheff sincere, but you can be sincere and still be wrong.
While Sheffield is entitled to his opinion, in my mind Torre is entitled to a presumption of innocence, not in the legal way, but as a matter of common sense. Torre, a very public figure, has not to date been called on any racist behavior I am aware of. One would reasonably expect that any tendency on Torre’s part toward racism would have been noticed before now and exposed.
But such is the legacy of racism that the mere mention of it causes up to pause.
BBFan- That proposal was from Joel Sherman from NY Post.
It makes the most sense for the Yankees to keep Arod, and for Arod to stay with the Yankees, hopefully the deal will get done quickly at the seasons end.
Bottom line on A-Rod…I think (if we want to do it) the Yanks are the only team that can afford A-Rod!
I do NOT beleive that Joe Torre is a Racist. It is an unfair accusation.
However, he does treat players differently. It is not just the bullpen.
He did that to A-Rod this year. Regarding that “mine” in Toronto, there was so much debate in the baseball circles and many established figures in baseball felt it was a fair game.
As manager, Torre has to either support his player or do not say something criticising the player IN PUBLIC. He had a private conversation with A-Rod which was perfectly alright. But sharing that conversation with the media, that is not correct. This is where he separates his people versus others. We do not know the truth, but according to media reports, Big Stein was so upset with it, they made Torre apologise to A-Rod. I do beleive that if there is any chance of Torre being manager next year, A-Rod will not ante up with Yankees.
That’s a interesting point, I wonder if Torre will be a factor on whether Arod stays. Torre has thrown him under the bus a few times, SI Article, batting him 8th, the HA heard around the world. I don’t think the Yankees are going to keep Torre anyways, it as a nice run but time to move on.
A-Rod is one of the best (if not the best) player in baseball right now, a first ballot HOF, and the only guy likely to break Bonds soon-to-be HR record (and without juice); all of these notions must Steinbrenner eager to extend A-Rod to create more Yankee legacy.
Having said that, I’d be just as happy without him and his public shrink sessions, with 30 mill invested elsewhere.
Bottom line on A-Rod: The Yankees resign him.
The Yankees are the only team that will have the next three years of his salary subsidized if they extend him before he opts out. That means they can shoulder the higher salaries after that. They have the money to spend with a new stadium on the way. There are no TWO players on the market who can make up for losing A-Rod’s production.
All I care about is what he does in between the two white lines. If I want soap operas, I look elsewhere besides sports. It just doesn’t bother me what the man says, what his wife wears, what his kids eat, or which poker tournament he plays in.
31 HR, 87 RBI, and 1.071 OPS on July 15? MORE PLEASE!!!!
I predict A-Rod ends up in Boston. Absolutely no way he stays in NYC. Not after the way he’s been treated here. You can go ahead and say Boston would be worse, but it’s not. If he goes there, he essentially corrects the 2004 trade incident.
The way things are going now, he’ll go to Fenway, have monster seasons like everyone else does who goes there. It’s unbelievable how the fortunes have turned, one used to be able to say the same thing about the Yankees.
Lol…A-Rod at Fenway? Where they’ve booed him for blinking over the last four years? There’s a better chance he plays in Japan next season.
A-Rod may end up somewhere other than NY, but it ain’t gonna be Boston.
JeffG, you’re worse than that idiot, Pollyanna Porkrind or whoever the hell that was. Everything is going bad, expect it to go worse.
Jeez, I wish they would have optimism quotas for some of the rosy eyed posts that end up on this propoganda board.
JeffG, go to your own blog, you can see the clus of A-Rod’s departure on your own banner when you load the page. All the Yankees are facing front except for one. Unlucky 13, Mr. A-Rod himself, turning his back on the Yankees and heading north to Boston.
A-Rod had nothing to do with the “2004 trade incident.” He was willing to go. The union wouldn’t let him.
If he goes to Boston, so be it. We’ll deal. And I doubt that Yankees fans will throw money at him when he returns to the Stadium. But I think that the Boston media will take as much getting used to as the NY media did for him. He’s finally gotten used to it. I don’t think he’ll want to repeat the last 3 years in another city.
Yeah believe Lofton a guy who has been on about 10 teams and sheffield… Torre did not want Lofton to be his CF and was against the move…
Torre likes to play his guys, black or white. His guys are or were Bernie(I am color blind but he looks black to me), mariano, etc…
Do not respond to this Torre, it is beneath you. I disagree with many of Torre’s bullpen moves and other decisions but I do not know Torre but I beleive from everything I have seen and read Torre is a good person and he being a racist would be a joke…
How are things going in Texas Lofton? I see you have plenty of playing time, I hope you enjoy the 60 wins… He is another selfish delusional player…..
I disagree. The fans and media will have driven him out. It’s on us. This is a disgraceful endgame to Yankees Stadium’s long history as a place where greatness would happen or be built. It’s poetically appropriate it all comes tumbling down with players leaving once the stadium moves. I really think that Posada and Rivera will also end up elsewhere.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think this will be forever, but I do predict about 13-15 years of a downward trend. Not awful when you consider that the Yanks have won 6 world series in the past 30 years and have appeared in even more.
I think Torre does need to respond.
Yea Boston the city that treats all there players nicer then Yankee fans. How is Buckner doing… I see how you treated Nomar also..
That is right Boston red sux that progressive ealry adaptorw when it comes to race issues.
That is right the Yanks are racist ask there architect of the dynasty and old GM Bob Watson(black) about that!!!
This discussion is fruitless…. I am sure the red sux animals are treating jd drew just fine…..
Kyle Litke
July 15th, 2007 at 2:01 am
Igawa almost has to start the next turn after Monday, because it’s a doubleheader. They already have to call someone up as is.
Are you talking about the game that we have to play a whole 2 innings of ? You are callin THAT a double header ? Let’s try something simple. You pitch a Ramirez or a Villone or SOMEBODY OTHER THAN A GUY THAT WE WASTED $50 Million on ! If Igawa had an ERA of 12.00, would we HAVE to pitch him ? NO ! Is HIS ERA close enough to that for us to send him down…ABSOLUTELY !....Bring up somebody else to pitch… ANYBODY ! Igawa stinks and if the Yankees don’t wake up and recognize that FACT, they need a good slap across the face !
It’s possible Posada will go, which will make me very sad because he’s a great player and a great Yankee, but I don’t think Mo will go. Based on what Mo has said about other players and other free agency trends, I think he wishes to remain a Yankee and, as long as they give him an offer which they would be stupid not to, he’ll come back.
Tom Yawkey was a flat out bigot yet is celebrated in Boston.
YawKKKey Way – spare me please.
Alan—there’s a double header against Tampa. Two full games. That’s not the 2 innings to make up from the Baltimore game.
Posada is going no where… He loves being a Yankee and they will pay him fairly relax….....................................
Yeah Mariano is going elsewhere!!!No way he loves NY and wants to spend his whole career here…
BB fan: Doubtful A-Rod would go to a NL team. When he’s on the brink of hit and HR records he’ll be over 36 and will want to prolong his career. That’s when he’ll DH more than anything.
The issue with extending MO and Posada will be the years they want, no so much the salary. Andy is a good example of that.
If they are willing to sign a two year deal with an option for third, Cash will offer them a good deal. If they insist on more than 2 years guaranteed, then it will become ugly and Yanks may take a stand and let them go.
Look, it goes both ways. Yanks will show the loyalty, but the players have to reciprocate it as well. If they want to be greedy, I am not implying MO and Posada are greedy, they have to be let go. You can not saddle the team with aging veterans and still expect to win.
jorge is sitting today
24/7 Ynakees,
You have a good point regarding A-Rod.
Not so sure if A-Rod and Boras will take that into account at this itme.
Hey Racist –
First off, we see Yogi’s back on my banner too – cause Larson is holding him up. Whatever.
Second: my call on A-Rod staying has nothing to do with optimism. If you read my post from a few days ago, I make the case that A-Rod and the Yankees don’t need each other to the extent that Peter and others have said. But that doesn’t mean I don’t think he’ll end up staying after an aggressive push by the front office.
You strike me as a guy (or girl) who simply likes stirring things up because you don’t have anything intelligent to contribute. That’s cool, and your right, but it’s a tired act that quickly gets ignored. In fact, as of the period at the end of this sentence, I’d say you’ve reached that point.
I think that Torre coaches with a “trust” meter. Thus, he trusted Bernie over Lofton. Trusted half a Sheffield over hot Melky. Trusts a veteran like Vizcaino over a rookie Ramirez (he’s right on that one, we’re trying to get back into a race). Don’t know the deal with Farnsworth, Torre keeps giving him the rope and he keeps trying to hang himself.
As for the comments about A-rod being driven out by the fans & media. Some validity, but A-rod got the Bonds treatment from the media. They’re like vultures and they sensed some kind of weakness and exploited it. As for the fans, yeah they were wrong. If Alex had shown some consistency over his years here then I think they would have been less harsh on him. His approach at the plate last year really drove them over the edge. His performances this year have made many forget that he was atrocious at times, by his own admission. Not saying the fans were justified, but they weren’t booing him for nothing.
In the case of A-Rod, it is not fair to lump all media are agianst him.
It is just NY Post. I am sure A-Rod kows that.
Andrea:
Both Jorge and Mo will end their careers as Yankees. George won’t allow otherwise. Jorge says he’ll test the market but only to see what it’s like. The 1st thing the Yankees need to do is get him a reliable backup and monitor the progress of Francisco Cervelli and P.J. Pilittere as the next catcher when Jorge is finished as a player.
Is Kei Igawa still a Yankee?? DAMMIT!!!!
I hate when the fans boo Yankees players. Unless they kick a puppy or throw their bat at another person or some such atrocity, fans should never boo their own team’s players.
The Post is the worst, but the A-rod jokes permeated throughout media. Even Pete here made some “jokes”. TV, radio, print, and internet were all over him until he started to monster mash this year. Like I’ve been saying all along. Shut up and play the game. If he goes to another city and has a down year will the fans and media of his new city be “classy”?
Kevin: I agree and that would be my thought, but his “I want to see what it’s like” idea seems really strange to me.
BBFan: I wasn’t saying all media, just some media, media in general. And I guess by media I meant everything that comes with the NY way of life. I guess a great deal of that is the NY Post though. Who pays for that thing to still be in production?
Posada and Mo need to stop whining about why Bernie Williams isn’t on this team and why it’s strange. Get over it. He wasn’t an upgrade over Cabrera. Hell, if we knew about Damon having a subpar year, we probably would have had him already but we can’t predict the future. Posada saying he wants to test the free agency is a little bothersome. It gives me an uneasy feeling and there won’t be any good catchers on the free agent market. I’m not worried about Mo. I think he’ll be in a Yankee uniform until he retires.
Andrea,
What’s so strange? He’s a guy who’s never been on the market. It’s like he’s been married to the same great woman his whole adult life, but for a month or so he get’s to go out and flirt with other women. Then he’ll choose to come home to his wife, but get more “benefits”. lol. He’s just trying to tighten the screws a little. He knows his value to the team and that he’s the heart and soul of the Yankees. He’s their fire to Jeter & Mo’s ice.
Arod is clearly going to Boston/
Why?
His best friends, Manny and Ortiz are there, and they have always supported him.
He has no friends on the Yankees.
This is amazing, we used to be the favorite team and they were cursed, now this century, everything is upside down.
I want to go back to last century!
Doreen-
There was a play called “The Wedding Singer” in addition to the horrid Adam Sandler movie ?? who knew.
Andrea-
fans should never boo their own team’s players
They’re not yellin’ “Boo” they’re yellin’ “Boo Yah!!”
In General-
I’ve always had a good feeling about ARod: slapping the ball, the Toronto “mine” trick, punching Varitek – he’s fun. For goodness sakes, he’s our Kelly Leak
I LOVE Giambi, you REALLY need to try joining us in the arena called the real world ! A-Rod is going to Boston ? Not in a MILLION YEARS ! If you think THE BOSS would allow that, you are seriously WAY over medicated. A-Rod will finish his career at NY and will easily break the all-time Home Run record in a NY Uniform, which is the MAIN REASON that George will not allow him to go ANYWHERE…
mel,
I guess I would never leave my life to hang out with some new girls for a month. Well, I also wouldn’t have a wife…..hmm….
I get it, but I don’t. I understand why someone would want to explore free agency, but at the same time I don’t know why someone would take something like being a Yankee for granted. And I don’t mean being on the Yankees. There are a few people that just ARE Yankees: Jeter, Mo, Pettitte, Bernie. There aren’t many other teams like that.
Perhaps I’m just a sentimental fool.
Loyalty goes both ways.
If Posada wants to test the market, which is his right, and go to another team, he can do it.
It will not be the end of the world for the Yankees.
What yankees can not do is be afraid and give him a long term deal and get stuck with it after a year to two.
We already have one too mnay such situations and the roster quite inflexible as seen this year.
Dr Acula: You’d be surprised how many crappy musicals are out there. Not only is there a musical of The Wedding Singer, but there’s also a new Legally Blond musical. American musical theater at its best.
And if it’s Boo Yah instead of Boo, then there’s nothing to worry about!
Andrea,
I think it sends a message to the Yankees, “Don’t take me for granted” (using the marriage analogy).
If, in a couple of years, they want to retain Jorge witha third contract then they may extend him as soon as possible. Knowing that he’s open to talking to other teams. Pretty smart.
mel, I got that. But again, I’m a sentimental fool. It would pain me to see Jorge in anything other than Yankee pinstripes.