Close games going their way
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jul 18, 2007 
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The Yankees are 4-1 in games decided by one or two runs since the All-Star break. They were 8-24 in such games before the break.
Kyle Farnsworth’s last five games: 5 innings, 7 hits, 3 runs (2 earned), 3 walks, 1 strikeout, 2 errors. The lack of strikeouts this season (24 in 38.1 innings) is the biggest concern. Farnsworth was unreliable last season, but at least he fanned 75 in 66 innings.
You have to think the bullpen will determine a lot what happens over the next 10 weeks, which is a scary thought.
Outside of Mariano Rivera and (possibly) Luiz Vizcaino, who can be trusted right now?
Brian Bruney and Ron Villone to some extent. Edwar Ramirez? Nobody knows. Scott Proctor? Maybe. Certainly not Farnsworth and Mike Myers with the way they have pitched lately.
Brian Cashman has to figure something out. Some addition and subtraction is needed, and soon.
Nobody knows how Edwar will pitch because Torre won’t put him into a game
they’ll need to send Edwar back to scranton in “spring train” mode now that he’s all rusted up.
Does anyone think we will be able to trade Farnsworth and/or Proctor? And if not, does anyone think that we may actually have the guts to either cut them or send them down, and load up our bullpen with some studs.. like Britton, and Karstens and maybe Joba? Let’s make a run for this thing!!
do not lump proctor with Farnsworth..his contract is much much less and he has pitched much better….
I have an equal chance of pitching for the Yankees as does Edwar. The game could have gone 20 innings last night and he still wouldn’t have gotten a chance to pitch.
I expect Edwar to pitch like the first ballot hall of famer that he is.
Where the heck is Edwar? How has this kid been MIA for the last 10 days?
The Yankees may have a diamond in the rough, but since Torre is married to Kyle, they’ll never know.
That’s just criminally negligent.
Nobody is getting “cut”. At least not Farnsworth or Proctor.
Why should Proctor be “cut”? Makes no sense.
Farnsworth? Cutting him may be a fans solution. However, the Yankees end up eating 10 million in salary, which makes no sense.
Hopefully, they deal him. If not, with Karstans and Hughes on the way, I suspect there will be changes within the staff for the last two months of the season.
I don’t see how you can take a AA starter (Joba) who isn’t on the 40 man roster, and has less than 150 innings of pro experience, and install him as the 8th guy.
Just because Mike Francesa touts it, doesn’t mean its logical. Two weeks ago, Francesa hadn’t even heard of Joba Chamberlain. Now, he wants him in the 8th inning. Unreal.
I posted this in an older thread, but it got all messed up, and it was an older thread, so I’m not sure many of you saw it…Farnsworth’s numbers are inferior to that of Proctor, Viz, Myers, and Villone in all of the following categories: hits per inning, ERA (except Viz), WHIP, batting average against, slugging against, on-base against. The only stats his fellow relievers give him a run for his money on is walks.
Why Joe Torre so stubbornly refuses to get Farnsworth out of the 8th is beyond me. There’s hardly an arm in the bullpen with worse numbers.
“And if not, does anyone think that we may actually have the guts to either cut them or send them down, and load up our bullpen with some studs.”
why would they cut Proctor?
my guess: Cashman is trying desperately to trade Farnsworth. my guess is there was some tepid interest, but every time he goes out there, it makes it a little harder.
I don’t understand why people want to dump Proctor. Who is going to replace him? He’s durable and usually good. Farnsworth, on the other hand, needs to go, and soon. I’m OK with Britton taking his place.But a few guys will be coming off the DL soon, so something’s gotta give with the roster.
Hold on to proctor. Since his little fire escapade he has looked great. Dealing Farnsworth for an infield prospect maybe? Or maybe straight up for a set-up man who doesn’t have the same stuff Krazy Kyle does, but one that can throw strikes?
Hmmm,
That makes the most sense. They aren’t stupid.
That’s why we just have to sit tight until the deadline passes. Anything Cashman or Torre says or does until that time (when discussing players), I take with a grain of salt.
On August 1, I suspect there will either be an acquired arm for the bullpen, or a re-shuffling of roles on the staff.
JMHO.
Torre is ridiculous sometimes. Cashman too. How about giving Shelley a shot as a big bat off the bench or at DH? And why is Edwar warming the bullpen bench with Farns being so crappy lately? Give the kid a shot. Jeez.
They could do addition via subtraction and kill 2 birds with 1 stone!
there hasn’t been a situation to bring in Edwar. Most of the games recently have been decided by three runs or less and did not warrant putting him in. You don’t want to put a rookie in a high pressure situation two weeks into his career and position him to fail.
In our recent past, out of spring training, Henn was the one over Villone that everyone loved. Now we’d all trade him away for a utility man.
During the offseason, everyone was touting Viz’s stats for a reliever and LH specialist. In April/May, they wanted him DFA’d.
I think the coaching staff is right to develop Edwar for the long haul and he can develop in to a solid penner, but I don’t think making him an instant 8th inning guy is the way to do it. It’s setting him up to be the next Hanson.
Also, why would you want to start the service time clock on joba who hasn’t even hit AAA?
SJ-
Not only does Francessa know Chamberlain’s name, his instant psycho-analysis is that nothing bad can happen if he comes up and gets shelled.
The problem Cashman faces is that every time that Farnworth goes out there, he reveals more weaknesses. Not good. The Dodgers have a bullpen opening and I don’t know what the Brew Crew is going to do now that Sheets is out for a month and a half.
agreed Sunny.
A lot of balls bounced the wrong way and a lot of calls were against us in the first half. Now the pendulum is swinging the other way. But, I really believe that you make your own luck. For instance, last night, Accardo balked in the run but it wouldn’t have happened if Melky hadn’t been on 3rd. Melky made that possible by being aggressive not once, but twice. It’s all about making the other team uncomfortable and that’s why teams like the Mets and Angels do well.
If the team showed this kind of urgency and hustle in the first half, we’d be leading in the east. They’ve finally figured it out.
Where do you find this W/L record in 1-run games? Cleveland has a ridiculous stat, can’t remember what it was.
Excellent posts TK and Sunny. I agree, its a slippery slope they are walking with Farnsworth.
They need to win as many games as they can. Yet, any sign they are “moving away” from Farnsworth, it diminishes his value. Its not an easy balancing act.
Best solution? For the next week, the offense averages 8 runs a game, starters go a little longer in games, and they have little use for Farnsworth leading up to the deadline.
If that happens, perhaps they can find a home/sucker for him.
More than anything else the weakness of the Yankees pen is its wild inconsistency. They all have good arms but have poor command.
They are going to be streak because of that and going to go through cycles of being bad and good.
Because of that it’s unlikely they are going to be able to assign fixed roles in the pen that last the whole season. They are going to have to see who’s pitching well at that moment and take it from there.
Right now its Vizcaino. That may last for a while but it may not. We’ll have to see.
For that reason getting rid of Proctor is risky and cutting Proctor or trading him just to make a move isn’t the most logical thing to do.
There’s a good chance later on Viz will slump and Proctor will get hot for 2 weeks or so.
In the beginning of the year there must have been hundreds of posts demanding that Vizcaino has to be cut immediately. He had an ERA over 7.5 – at that point how many people wanted him released? Vizcaino was exhibit 1 for how Torre was an idiot.
Now everyone loves Vizcaino and wants to just get rid of Proctor or just release Farnsworth for nothing?
Similar thing with Cano and Melky. People wanted them traded or sent to Scranton.
You can’t just cut ties with players when they’re doing poorly because you’ll always be selling low.
Farnsworth and Meyers do need to go. Right now Farnsworth shouldn’t be pitching in big spots. Hopefully Cash can work out a trade. They can release any of them whenever they want after the deadline. Let’s give him until the trade deadline and see what happens.
Jason Jones exudes as much awesomeness as Phil Hughes.
I think everyone also has to remember regarding Farns’ trade value is that every GM and their mothers know three key points about Farns:
1 – He’s got a bad back
2 – He has to start the inning and needs plenty of warm up time
3 – He has issues pitching on consecutive days
So while some coaches out there may think Farns’ mechanics are fixable/tweakable, those three factors significally detract from any value he might have as any kind of closer/reliever because those issues are *not* fixable.
i think proctor or farns will be dealt by the deadline, maybe for dan johnson. Torre won’t put Edwar in unless the game is well in hand or were down by several runs. He hasn’t had enough chances to pitch to prove he can be effective on a consistent basis.
Also, does anyone know if the game is still on time tonight or know where i can call to find out?
Thanks for the help.
4-He’s expensive
I know Myers’ job is to get lefties out, and lefties are hitting him too well this year, but (i) he really stepped up when the BP was overworked earlier this year and took on more than his share of innings, (ii) he’s already pitched more innings this year than all of last year, and (iii) he is having his second best season (in terms of ERA) in a very long career. He’s certainly pitching a lot better than his career numbers. I realize he is not getting lefties out. But he is getting *batters* out with surprising effectiveness.
At the moment, Proctor has a much higher value than Farns (smaller salary, more reliability, workhorse) so if the Betemit or Johnson deals are made it’ll be for Proctor rather than Farns (unfortunately).
true mel – but that can be fixed by Cash eating the contract (depending on what the other team offers).
Philip Hughes pitching line today:
Innings 4.0
Hits 2
Runs 1
Walks 2
K’s 5
This kid can’t get back soon enough.
Broadcasters made a comment that for 2 games in a row you had Meyers warming up with guys in trouble and lefties coming up and yet they chose not to go to him. I didn’t think that Meyers is in the dog house b/c he can’t be much worse than what’s been trotted out there. Truly believe that there’s plan for Farnsworth because when’s the last time we saw Proctor pitch or Torre leave guys in to clean up their own mess?
Also, our record in close games is as much a function of luck as anything else. Over the course of a season, a team’s record in one- and two-run games should largely approximate their overall winning percentage. The Red Sox were unusually “lucky” the first half of the year, and are now coming back down to earth, and the Yankees were unusually unlucky in the first half of the season, and now their numbers are normalizing, too.
And yes, the team is playing better. But when Girardi is on YES last night saying that these are games you can’t let get away. What *exactly* is he talking about? What *exactly* is the team supposed to do differently, so that they make sure they win last night’s game, that they didn’t do earlier in the season? The answer is “nothing.” The team tried to win a one-run game last night, and succeeded, and they tried to win a number of one-run games earlier in the year and failed.
What they need to do is trade for a legit set up man. Someone who actually throws strikes.
I know. A novel concept.
I think that Farnsworth will go before Proctor. We’re trying to trade him because he’s an albatross, not because we’re buyers. Proctor is a good young reliever and in Torre’s “circle of trust”.
Where does this trade Proctor talk come from?
We need more arms in the pen. Not less.
And Edwar pitched against the Angels in a big spot and gave up that hit. Not exactly endearing himself to Torre.
Pete –
FYI, You’ve been “tagged� –
http://www.waswatching.com/arc.....ged_1.html
Hope you don’t mind – and will consider “playing along.�
Regards, Steve
submitted to the ceo a myers DFA watch for saturday. enough is enough. maybe the perfect brother-in-law but it’s time to move on.
could be cash is hoping kk will rally and up his value. is there any team with a prayer for contention that needs a closer, not in the AL east? on the right team he will succeed, but the yanks are too spiritual and cerebral (everything is relative) for this guy. he just doesn’t fit.
might be something we don’t know about ramirez. this said, expect he’ll get his chance. risk is he’s a AAAA type. dave eiland and many others were lights out in AA/AAA and when they got here were dave lapointe at the bitter end.
expect bruney will get another shot at stardom. really like this guy. he’s a fit. villone every third day is decent, just can’t have nine villones out there, no one to pitch.
proctor may get traded, but no for the dreck that being talked up. they need a backup catcher who can play more than five innings a week, and my guess that’s the priority.
middle and set-up relief is the differentiator that determines winning and losing teams. like losing weight, “go do it.”
meantime, if we were seven back on labor day we’d gear up for the stretch. next three weeks are critical. no losing to kc and the tampa series is almost a must-sweep as well.
interesting thing, and perhaps peter can opine on this, is the personal aspect. we see these guys on tv and have no sense of reality. i was astounded, after a tour of yankee stadium, how small (“intimate”) the “clubhouse” is. very much like a business office. any undertow and it has an effect.
time for a run, lest i be chosen as a posterboy for wendy’s new baconator.
Edwar went through the stages of the Torre Treatment relatively quickly. First, he pitched in a game where the Yanks had a nice lead. He pitched well, so next, Torre pitched him in a tight game. He still pitched pretty well but he gave up a run. Now, he’s in the third stage of the Torre treatment, which is banishment; no pitchy for you Edwar. Only the best pitchers can make it past this stage because by the next time they’re called on to pitch, they haven’t pitched in possibly WEEKS. So right now we all have to pray that Edwar still remembers how to pitch and still has a feel for that change because, if he struggles, and who would blame him(besides Torre) if he does after not having pitched for so long, then we probably won’t see him again for a while. (Edwar is to Torre in ’07 what Mariano was to Showalter in ’95. )
The problem with any bullpen overhaul is that, because it takes Torre so long to get comfortable with relievers, it’ll be September before he figures the new guys out. For example if Britton is called up, and he should be, it may take him a few appearances to get comfortable in the big leagues again; unfortunately, at this point they can’t really afford to have someone giving away runs to get comfortable because every win is so crucial. This is exactly why Britton and Edwar should have brought up and used a long time ago. The Torre angle to that is that if a new reliever, a Britton, does struggle at first, then that may be all the rope he gets from the manager.
All of this makes me wonder how much input Cashman has as to who pitches. Was it part of his development plan to have Edwar ride the bench or as we saw the other night, the bullpen exercise bike, for so long? Is he cool with all of the decisions Joe has made? Does the continued use of Farnsworth come at his insistence? Does anyone know? I have a feeling it’s just, “here are the players, Joe. You decide who plays when”, because the bullpen decisions lately have been so f*&$ed, that it seems like they could only from the mind of Torre.
sunny,
I know that we can, but when’s the last time the Yankees ate salary to get rid of a player? Johnson maybe? We usually take on salary. LOL.
Ben,
You can’t be serious with that lazy analysis of winning tight games. Games aren’t won in a stats class. Yes you do things differently when you win a close game than when you lose it.
Isn’t that obvious? You score more runs and let up less. It’s not about effort or trying hard. It’s about results. Which is what everyone is after. You get timely, clutch hitting. You get good pitching. No walks. No errors. No balking in a run.
I guess someone prayed at the altar of Rob Neyer way too long this morning.
I’m torn on the Proctor for Betemit rumor…
Yanks really need a flexible power bat off the bench, which betemit provides (if nothing else)..
but giving up Proctor with his salary and arm… I’d almost just dump Farnsworth for a low-level guy, keep Proctor, and call up Britton for some time.
Torre gave Bruney his 8th inning shot. He walked in 2 Giants and blew a lead.
What Torre needs out there is someone who will come in and not walk anyone. Which is death in the late innings.
That’s what Cashman is going to do. He’s going to trade his cheap, hard throwing late inning guy who has proven success for a bench player hitting 220.
That certainly fits the Cashman model that hes shown the past 2 years. Are you out of your minds?
I can see a Beam or a Henn going for a Betemit but Proctor??
But thats nice of LA for fofering their 25th man for a legit late inning set up man who has been threw the wars. Very nice of them. Can we get Nomar for Hughes too?
Someone just compared Edwar to Mariano in ’05.
My head just exploded.
Its pretty tough to hold “tryouts” for bullpen roles in the middle of July, when you are trying to make the playoffs.
That’s what some of you are advocating and that’s not what teams trying to make the playoffs are going to do.
Its nice to say, “try this guy” or “try that guy” in a role and, “if he fails, then you know”.
Well, if he “fails”, that could mean a loss. Something that, because of how poorly they have played for most of the season, they can’t afford right now.
Since the break, there has been, maybe, ONE situation where Edwar could have been used. Friday night in Tampa. That’s it.
There is no way you could have used him last night.
I don’t think Torre has it “in” for him or anything like that. He’s trying to win games and its very hard to do it with unknowns. That’s why they are trying to find situations to ease him in.
They have played two games this week. Both games where the game situations have not called for him. Let’s see how it plays out the rest of the week. With 6 games over the next 5 days, I suspect we will see him.
When was the last time the Yankees called up a rookie pitcher here in late July, fighting for the playoffs, and they just threw him into the fire? There’s no margin for error. That’s what makes it tough to work him in.
TRADE for GAGNE.
BRING UP Duncan!!!
You’re out of your minds if you think Edwar is getting into a game in anything less than long relief or a blowout.
This isn’t the time for a tryout session. We blew those chances in April and May. Those are done with.
Cashman needs a reliable option there. It will come by trade.
Lets strengthen the pen. Not weaken it by cutting/trading guys for nothing.
no, thank you.
I wouldn’t mind Gagne. I wouldn’t mind anything right now. We need the help. The starters are giving us way too much for the pen to blow it.
Yanks pen has blown 15 games.
Sox 3.
Think it makes a difference??
Wow. Law is really high on Joba, Top 5 player in minors.
Cashman on Trenton station. Staying the course with the plan to build up the farm system.
Go get Lidge and put him in the 8th and let him learn from Mo.
I wouldn’t mind and I think there’s a pretty good shot of Joba coming up to help the pen sometime soon.
The Astros owner said today in the Houston Chronicle that he isn’t trading Lidge.
And all GM’s tell the truth especially right before the trading deadline, right?
Bruney needs to pitch in Farnsworth’s spot. Bruney did a great job last night in the 9th. Just out of curiosity,IF the Farns-Betemit trade rumor comes through, does Bet just take Farns’ spot on the roster or what?
Bruney has to earn that spot. Walking hitters doesn’t earn you anything with Torre.
Poor Lidge. Treated badly by the organization as they keep changing his role in the bullpen. Keeping him under lock & key. I’d take Lidge before Gagne. Does he even pitch anymore?
Well, if Cashman wants this team to continue making a run he’s going to have to get a bullpen arm. Not to mention a right handed bat and a UTL player.
It’s not going to cost top notch prospects so I don’t see the difficulty.
Lidge had a save last night.
There is a double header on Sat with DeSalvo and Igawa pitching both games.
I think its a pretty good bet we see every pitcher that day with those 2 clowns on the hill.
Sorry, I meant does Gagne even pitch anymore. He doesn’t seem to be relevant anymore after being the guy for so long.
From Keith Law’s Chat over at ESPN today:
Ed Portland OR: KLAW what can the Yanks get for Farnsy?
SportsNation Keith Law: (1:05 PM ET ) Agita.
Cleveland lost 6.5 games and counting
Indians lost. The Yanks are now 6.5 behind Cle in the Wild card race, and only 5 in the loss column.
I’m not going to sift through all the comments to see, but I hope somebody asked Pete how exactly Ron Villone is a trustworthy option in the ‘pen?
“I wouldn’t mind and I think there’s a pretty good shot of Joba coming up to help the pen sometime soon.”
Calling Joba to take a role in the bullpen would be a giant waste of time. Let’s see him starting every 5 and dominating AA or him being in our pen pitching once a week.
As for Desalvo and Igawa as the Double Header pitchers. That will be one looooooooooooong day. It’s really a shame that out all the pitchers Desalvo will make that start. He has no stuff whatsoever. 88MPH garbage fastball, doesn’t throw strikes, and is afraid of contact. What can you do
Lastly there is a rumor flying around about Farnsworth for Betiment. Really hope we can pull that one together and finally get rid of the Farns.
How about Mike Myers for Mark Loretta at first base?
so who do the yanks trade for to strengten the pen . about the only guy that comes to mind is scott linebrink from the padres . he’ s a free agent after this year so its only a half year rental . do the first place padres want to trade linebrink ? and who do the yanks give up to get him ? we all know who’ll theyll ask for . bottom line is relievers are hard to come by and can be high risk trades .
pete there is absolutely no question about it. i’m sure this is a repeat of what people have been saying (i haven’t read through the comments), but a quick, easy, and obvious solution is the promotion of chris britton. i know myers makes some money and farnsworth makes 6 million more than he should, but we can’t worry about that at this point. we have a chance to keep playing well on this stretch and be right back in the thick of the east on aug. 10 when cleveland comes to town. farnsworth and/or myers will cost us valueable games, and if we can’t trade them for a king size butterfinger (i wouldn’t, so why would another gm), we can at least use their roster spot for britton or get creative with one of the young starters.
Dave: I’m not sure if someone has answered this question because I didn’t feel like looking through all the comments, but if you’d like to know the game is still scheduled for an on-time start, there is a number in teeny tiny letters on the back of your ticket. Unless you’ve gotten your ticket through ticketmaster. If that’s the case, let me know and I’ll look at one of my tickets.
Cleveland lost ( only 5 games back in the loss column now )….we will easily catch Cleveland…..I mean….CLEVELAND ???,,,,are you kidding me ?
Also, after we win tonight and BoSox continue their slump, we will only be 6 games back in the loss column to THOSE BUMS….with SEVENTY GAMES TO PLAY…
HAVE FAITH ALL…..the HUGE HISTORIC COMEBACK this season for the Yankees is in 5th gear and gaining speed !!!
I’d love to have Lidge, but what are you going to trade for him? Lidge, despite his troubles, has strong value. No one in our pen (besides Rivera) has any. The Astros would want high level prospects, Joba, Kennedy, Bellantences and/or Horne for Lidge. That’s a pretty high price… Still want him now?
Alan: Of course we can catch Cleveland. I seem to remember backin April that we swept Cleveland–with Chase Wright pitching for the first time, no less. I think Kay said something the other day that all three of those games, a rookie pitcher got the win.
Cleveland should be no problem. I am POSITIVE!
What the heck time did they start the Cleveland/WS game? Was it a brunch game????
I realize everyone wants a good pen, but let’s make an observation here –
with what our pen is made up of and what everyone here (myself included) wants is like trying to trade in a beat up, rusty, oil leaking, sometime working 1972 VW beetle for a 2004 slightly used BMW. If you owned the BMW, would you make that trade?
Bumped into this fact: Shelly Duncan is a minor league free agent after this season. If they are ever going to see what he has, it had better be soon.
David,
Maybe they already know and aren’t impressed. The guy has been in the organization forever.
I know people look at the stats and think he is the “answer” but, he has a lot of holes in his swing. He can only DH and, if Giambi is going to be back by August 1, do they really need him? That’s the question.
Damon is slumping but, he still is an established ML player. Shelley Duncan is not. I can understand their hesitation on this one.
It’s hilarious how Yankee fans want Lidge in the 8th now. A hard throwing national league guy who choked away postseason games and is mentally weak. Sounds like someone we know. Oh wait…Farnsworth. So Farnsworth sucks, but lets bring in another just like him cause that will work? The logic fails.
This is why fans should never be GMs.
Thanks Andrea! I did get them from ticketmaster so I don’t see the number on the back. I have a good feeling were gonna play since the sun is out now. haha but if you can post the number that would be great!
Dave: I have a partial season ticket plan, so all my tickets are from the Stadium. The number to call is 718 293 6000. That’s the Yankee ticket office. You have to listen to a really long intro, but if you press 5 that’s the extension for game stutus type stuff, so you can skip all over it.
I just realized–it’s kind of sad that I know the extension off the top of my head
That Ramirez can’t get work and Britton is in AAA makes zero sense, and it’s on both Torre and Cashman.
chris is a red sox troll . who wants lidge anyway ? the clowns on espn say he might just need a change of scenery .
Thanks a lot. I appreciate it.
anytime!
Brian Cashman did a very interesting interview today with the Trenton Thunder radio broadcasters during an 8th inning rain delay. Cashman was there to watch Hughes.
He spoke about the overall direction of the organiztion, player acquisition and some trade deadline issues. He seemed much more relaxed with the Trenton broadcasters than he usually does with the media.
The game was broadcast over the internet through http://www.milb.com.
Highly recommend it.
Its pretty simple. Trust Edwar in some middle relief appearances and bring up Britton. Myers should be dfa’d. Farns should be a 6-7 inning guy or be traded. Viz should be the 8th inning guy for now.
Has everyone noticed that the Red Sox were 19 games over .500 on June 18 and still 19 games over on July 18?
Not only are they a .500 team over the last 30 days, but they are only 5 games over .500 since May 19.
A comeback by the Yankees is certainly possible. If the Yanks pick up a game per week by August 18 every Red Sox fan I know will be sweating bullets when the Yanks are only 3 games out in the loss column.
Agree on their hesitation and that he is not the answer, but Duncan is worth a look before he disappears.
Maybe someone would know what Ramirez could do if Torre ever used him in a legitimate situation.
He’s two weeks into his rookie career, putting him in high pressure situations could turn him into the next Craig Hanson. It’s better to put him in when the game is a blow out and see what his stuff is. In the last 6 games, we had one game where the lead was 4 runs, but it was the first game back from the break and Proctor and Farns and Mo needed the work. Edwar will get his chance, just gotta be patient.