Game 95: Devil Rays at Yankees
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jul 20, 2007 
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Here is the lineup:
YANKEES
Damon CF
Jeter SS
Abreu RF
Rodriguez 3B
Matsui LF
Posada C
Cano 2B
Phillips 1B
Duncan DH
Mussina RHP (4-6, 4.61)
Pregame chatter: Kevin Thompson has been optioned back to Scranton. … Doug Mientkiewicz was moved to the 60-day disabled list to make room for Duncan on the 40-man roster. … Perhaps playing in the field will help Damon. Kevin Long is convinced he’s close to breaking out of it.
UPDATE, 4:46 p.m.: Keep in mind that Damon is likely playing CF because Melky suffered a bit of an ab strain yesterday. He was iced down after the game.
UPDATE, 5:15 p.m.: Torre, now appearing on WFAN, just said his intention was to sit Damon for a few days but Cabrera came in today and said his ab strain was sore. So Damon is playing center and Melky will get a day off today. “His time off will have to wait a couple of days,” Torre said.
Just a guess, but Damon has a way of surviving. I bet he starts hitting all of a sudden.
UPDATE, 5:22 p.m.: Brian Cashman went to New Britain to see Joba Chamberlain pitch tonight. It’s not that much of a stretch because Cash lives in Connecticut. But interesting that they’re keeping such a close eye on a AA pitcher.
UPDATE, 6:16 p.m.: I see the comments that people want Damon put on the disabled list. One little problem: He is not injured. Damon told us yesterday that he feels as good physically as he has all season. Watch him on the bases, he is going to first to third easily and taking extra bases every time he’s out there. Damon and his agent (a Mr. Scott Boras of Newport Beach, Calif.) are not going to let the Yankees just throw him on the DL. It’s not that simple. Not being able to hit isn’t an injury.
UPDATE, 7:24 p.m.: Rough, rough night for Joba Chamberlain in New Britain. 4.2 innings, 9 hits, 7 runs (all earned), 3 walks, 7 strikeouts and 3 home runs.
In a way, this is a good thing. You don’t really learn much about a pitcher until he struggles. Chamberlain has had nothing but success as a professional but that’s not how it works in the majors.
His next start will be very interesting to follow.
UPDATE, 8:38 p.m.: Shelley Duncan has struck out twice on eight pitches and left four men on base. Tough debut for him so far. I spoke to a scout who covers the International League for an NL team and he told me that Duncan will “run into a few homers” as a major leaguer but also will strike out a lot. The scout told me Duncan is vulnerable to high fastballs and breaking pitches.
It would be a fun story if Duncan was the next Shane Spencer. But everybody should have realistic expectations based on what we have seen so far.
UPDATE, 8:58 p.m.: I fully understand he hasn’t pitched for a while. But Edwar Ramiez had been throwing bullpens. There is no excuse for four walks and a grand slam.
Minor-league stats are not always the best tool when it comes to projecting how a player will fare in the majors, particularly a relief pitcher. Too many people, fans and media alike, see good numbers and assume a guy can pitch. There was a reason the Yankees waited so long to bring up Ramirez.
It’s too bad. Ramirez seems like a nice kid and obviously he got screwed by the lack of work. But there does come up a time when you have to suck it up and throw a strike.
Do you really think all these guys came up from the minors and pitched under optimal conditions every time? Look up the game logs, they didn’t. Clemens, Pedro, Glavine, etc. They all had things happen, starts skipped, etc.
UPDATE, 10:36: Hey, Good for Shelly Duncan. At least some good comes out of this game.
Ohmigosh! They put Duncan right in at DH! Is Melky okay?
I’d rather Melky was out there, and Damon was sitting.
Where’s Melky? Day off?
second that Drew.
I’m glad to see Duncan get a shot immediately. Hopefully, he will bat more often than Edwar pitches (assuming he can hit at this level). Assuming Damon is injured (and I don’t think there’s any indication that he is, other than his lack of production), I would rather he ride the pine and heal up, so that we keep Melky’s glove and arm in CF. Promoting Duncan will be a negative for the team if it means that Damon gets his job back before he gets his game back. (CF is his; we obviously aren’t going to release him, but he’s not playing well enough right now to displace Melky.)
Melky is nursing that oblique. Plus, he may have to play both ends of the DH tomorrow. I have no problems giving him a rest tonight.
Might as well put in Duncan and see what he can do. Its the right way to go, IMO.
Perhaps playing in the field will help Damon. Kevin Long is convinced he’s close to breaking out of it.
Damon showed up at ST overweight and out of shape. It would be a welcome surprise if he could suddenly contribute, but I doubt it. Sounds to me like his head is not in the game (NY).
Is Melky being given the day off due to ab strain?
sweet damon leading off AND playing CF
Glad to see Duncan in. Hopefully Damon in the field will help him regain his form. I’m a huge Melky fan, but when it comes down to it, Damon is getting paid a crapload of money to play CF and be a producer like his Boston days.
Damon may be having trouble adjusting to the DH role. It’s very different and he’s probably never done it for any significant period of time.
Athletes like Damon make me sick. You get paid Millions of dollars to play a game. What excuse does a MLB player have for being overweight? You would figure since he was off and has no other job he could work out and stay in shape.
Beeg- No kidding. You dont think we know that? We arent idiots on here
Maybe the Yankees want showcase Duncan, so other Teams can see, if he can hit at the Major League Level. Thoughts?
OH BOO YOU PETER. after the yankees were up by like 8 runs, I wanted to stand outside of the press box entrance in the 9th inning to wait and meet you! and you won’t even be there?!
Anyways, yeah, I’d prefer Damon would just sit…. At least Melky will come in late in the game for defensive reasons to protect our big lead.
Wish Melky were in, but I can see giving him the day. Hope it is just the day. Need his arm, and his bat is much better than JD’s at present.
As for TurnTwo on prev. blog about Damon….Turn, don’t believe all you see or hear….
PhilCube,
The only thing with that is that the bench is terrible. Not that you need a pinch hitters in the AL, but say a tough lefty is being brought in with a sweeping curve (i.e. Downs) and Cano is up, Joe might want to think about pinch hitting Duncan.
Unfortunately, I don’t have Duncan’s righty-lefty splits, but using usual logic it makes sense.
Hopefully, we are just showcasing Damon tonight!
PhilCube- The only problem with that is he is a AAAA player facing a AAAA pitcher. He should be able to hit him
Jordan,
This season, Duncan is hitting .259/.337/.576 against Lefties and .307/.394/.578 against Righties. So similar power, better chance of getting on base against Righties, contrary to usual logic.
wish they had benched damon instead of melky.
None of his splits matter since he is facing ML pitching for the first time.
The stats are meaningless now. Let’s hope he can help the team.
As I said earlier, with Melky’s oblique acting up, this may be the only day to rest him so, I have no problem giving him a blow.
Let’s hope tonight is the night Damon gets it going.
Pete,
Any word on the rationale for benching Melky? Resting that strained oblique? A rest before playing both games of the DH tomorrow? Or is it just that Joe feels Damon is the better player?
Not quite sure which answer I’m hoping for. Beginning to seem like the end of last year all over again (bench the kids for the veterans).
Ah good point SJ44. Give him 48 hours (Since we played a day game yesterday) to rest up before the DH tomorrow.
It’s too bad Melky lacks the OBP and patience to take the lead off spot from Damon.
That would make life much easier, oh well.
Great, we get Damon’s wonderful arm in CF just in time for the run-happy D-Rays.
1st to 3rd – fuhgetaboutit.
Damon sucks I want him off this team and back in Boston.
What an awful signing
Interesting lineup. I assume we are showcasing Duncan tonight. I’ll be happy with 1 hit tonight out of the 1st and 9th spot in the lineup.
People make too much of Damon’s arm in CF.
Boston won a WS with Damon and he had the same arm then as he has now — not to mention Manny in LF to boot.
The Yanks also won 4 rings with Bernie Williams in CF and wouldn’t scare a 75 yr old lady from taking an extra base on him.
Let’s hope the Duncan move is the start of Cashman tweaking the roster to take full advantage of free falling Boston. Can’t let them off the hook. Pour it on – BIG TIME !
You don’t “showcase” guys closing in on thirty years old – you hope and pray that they can step outside of whom they really are (a lifetime minor’s guy), and contribute for a week or two while they’re hot with the bat. I just hope he can get a few key hits before he remembers just what he is exactly.
Good move by the Yankees. They needed a bat off the bench and who knows; Shelley Duncan can be bat off the bench for the time being. This is in a way a smart move so they can give a rest to Damon as the DH because he’s only hitting less than .160 this month according to WFAN.
Jeff…good point. They might as well put a turnstile in at 2nd base for this game.
You can’t argue that Damon’s arm doesn’t hurt the team. With Damon in CF the opponent automatically gets an extra base because Damon throws worse than a girl. The extra base add up and cost us a run here and there.
I love the Damon haters coming out of the woodwork. We need to Damon to play like he did last year to make the playoffs and then do some damage in the playoffs.
I love the Damon haters coming out of the woodwork. We need to Damon to play like he did last year to make the playoffs and then do some damage in the playoffs.
For all those thinking we are show casing Duncan, wait til he stikes out 3 times
Did you get that?
Damon should not be in CF but Melky even though he is young cannot play every game and they have a doubleheader Saturday.
The Thompson move is only decent in my opinion becuase of the doubleheader Saturday.
If Ramirez does not pitch tonigh he will probably be sent down Saturday with 2 innings of work.. Yea why keep him up when Myers, villone, and others are so successful especially of throwing strikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
they need only 12 pitchers if Torre knew how to distribute the work better that would also help….
They need one person off the bench with speed how about Christian or Gardner to pinch run for Duncan or posada or others late in a game….
Francessca said how about trading for Piazza, I think that makes sense if it is just a salary dump bu Oak.. He can DH and be a backup catcher and deal with the Nieves catastrophe……..he has a contract only thru the end of the yr….
Lets showcase a career minorleaguer smack dab in the middle of a pennant race. Who’s with me?
Alan:
I’ve asked politely and now I’m going to insist. Please relax with the all caps stuff, the pointless posts, etc. I’m all for having fun but I’m starting to get people e-mailing me saying they’re annoyed trying to sort through all the garbage.
Thanks,
Pete
It’s hard to say exactly to what degree Damon’s arm hurts his team.
Perhaps Damon not playing the field has hurt his production at the plate and getting into any kind of rhythm.
Look around MLB and you won’t find a ton of great arms in CF.
Sure, there are several of them. But it’s not a requirement.
Good point Chuckles. We have lots of whiners and complainers on this blog. It almost gets to the point where it appears we’re in an AOL chat room.
Like all, I want to see Damon start hitting, getting on base, setting things up for the mid order. He is so important to this team and you have to pull for him.
Thanks for the update on Melky, Pete.
I have a prediction….
If Peter Pan hits a long ball tonight and the human thermometer pitches a scoreless inning in relief striking 3 guys out, this blog is going to explode.
You heard it here first.
Just hope those Devil Rays don’t run wild with my sister’s arm in CF.
Let’s hope playing CF and hearing his name in the first inning from the bleachers reminds him of the all star he was.
can we trade Duncan to the Cards to join his father and brother? How about we just take their first baseman- call it even.
Let’s hope we catch lightning in a bottle with Shelley…a Maas or Spencer second half would be nice.
When it comes to burying players, all we have to do is read what a lot of people, not just fans but columnists, had to say about Arod last year.
If the organization listened to them, and traded him, where would this team be right now?
Everyone has such a short memory when it comes to Damon. Last year he was great. Not good, great.
He put up numbers, ignited the team, changed the culture in the clubhouse, and played the entire season with a broken foot. In other words, he was the Anti-Pavano.
This year, its been a struggle all year. So, in this generation’s Yankee fan bible, its DFA and get rid of him time now.
Not the way you do it, IMO.
If Johnny Damon never played for the Red Sox, all this nonsense people write about him wouldn’t be taking place. People are so caught up with the Red Sox, they can’t even think logically when it comes to Damon. We are even getting all the crazy conspiracy theories beginning to take shape.
If Johnny Damon can’t get it going this year, the Yankees aren’t going to the playoffs. They NEED to find a way to get him going.
Kevin Thompson and Shelley Duncan are not better players than Johnny Damon. So, let’s stop that nonsense.
They just have to keep at it and hope he breaks out of it. Its all they can right now.
people forget that in 04 Damon was ohfer the playoffs til he hit that GS at the stadium off Javy that I care not to talk about…he has always been a streaky hitter- Super Hot to Super cold.
you gotta go with him…he breaks out tonight. You think adding Shelley Duncan makes it interesting- wait til Giambi is ready!
Torre on Mike and the Mad Dog re: Duncan. “The original plan was to DH Duncan and give Damon a few days off. But, I come to the ballpark and Melky is feeling the ab strain so we can’t play him tonight”.
That’s the reason why Melky is out of the lineup.
Torre also said Damon is healthy and he isn’t aware of any health issues right now. Just a flat out slump (Torre’s word) right now.
I don’t think Duncan will be up very long. I thought he may go back down tomarrow(because of the DH) or Sunday but with Damon hurting he may not be able to unless Thompson is recalled. If a lot of pitchers get used tonight or tomarrow look for another pitcher to come up to help out. We can only hope Moose has a 7 or 8 inning game in him tonight.
good luck shelly…you better earn joe’s infamous trust ASAP or you wil be riding some serious pine and suffer the same fate as edwar.
Very, very interesting: Francesa asks Torre about Chamberlain in the 8th. Torre’s answer: “Now you are going to get my hand slapped”. Translation (IMO) its on the table.
Cashman is in New Britain watching him pitch tonight.
Torre also said he has never seen Chamberlain pitch. However, he has heard that, above all else, people who have worked with him believe his makeup is ready right now for the majors. That’s good news.
Just guessing here but, Cashman wouldn’t be in New Britain if the thought isn’t about bringing up Chamberlain. No way he is taking that roadtrip if calling him up is not being discussed internally.
I hope Joba knocks him them out tonight. If he does, he may be getting closer to the Bronx.
“If Johnny Damon can’t get it going this year, the Yankees aren’t going to the playoffs. They NEED to find a way to get him going.”
I heard Michael Kay blasting the airwaves with this claptrap yesterday as well. No one player is going to keep this team out of the playoffs in my opinion. They still have two of the best offensive players in all of baseball, and a little shuffling of the order and a key midseason call up (or experiment as many label it) is all that needs tinkering with in my opinion. We have other players who can lead off.
The yanks are very much in the race to this point having started 23+ games by rookies, plagued by injuries, absolutely no bench whatsoever, and having many more players in enormous offensive slumps.
BJ
Pete,
Going from Darien to New Britain is a pain in the butt trip these days LOL. Not a fun trip.
Seriously, you gotta think Cashman is looking at him with the idea of calling him up.
If Joba is lights out tonight, it wouldn’t shock me to see Joba in NY by August 1.
Its pretty clear Cashman isn’t going to trade away the young arms for the slop that’s on the market. If he can solve his issues internally, that looks like they way they are heading.
UPDATE, 5:22 p.m.: Brian Cashman went to New Britain to see Joba Chamberlain pitch tonight. It’s not that much of a stretch because Cash lives in Connecticut. But interesting that they’re keeping such a close eye on a AA pitcher.
Yes, an AA pitcher who might be in the rotation by the ASB next year. If you don’t know Joba, get in the know.
Thanks for the update on the Melkman, Pete.
Um, jerkface, I saw him spring training. calm down. GMs don’t usually follow AA teams on the road.
Who is starting the 2nd game of the Trenton twinbill? Is it a Chamberlain/Kennedy twofer?
SJ you are right.. Cashman has committed almost 2 years ago to stop trading young chips for short term fixes.
To all the Yankee fans that is really good news..
Guys like Kennedy, Chamberlin, Hughes, tabata, and a few others are not available under any circumstances.. Guys like CLippard, desalveo, karstens, rasner,etc are obviously available…
Hopefully Ramirez will get in today or Saturday and produce Torre also spoke about him on Mike nad the maddog.
they do need to add 1 more roster player to the 25 man..hopefully is Igawa craps out sat morning they send him down for Desalvo..I think that is the plan because he kinda mentioned maybe only 1 more start for hughes!!!!!!Or maybe Karsten will pitch 1 game and then Hughes will get called up
Alan:
I’m not saying to leave. Just don’t post like you’re 12 every time. That’s all. Calm down a little.
the only way Joba may be up is if Farns or Proctor is dealt.
Early in the season how many people wanted to DFA vizcaino.
Now he’s the best non-Mo reliever in the pen and many people say it’s just obvious he’s the 8th inning answer.
A couple of months ago Melky had to be sent to Scranton or traded. He was not an everyday outfielder.
Now we can’t afford to let him sit for one game and play Damon.
Robinson Cano was a dog a couple of weeks ago, lazy, nonchalant and had to at least be sent to Scranton to teach him a lesson or traded.
Minky had to be DFA’s because Josh Phelps was clearly the answer. PHelps had power, great zone rating, etc.
Damon has played poorly this year. But the idea that suddenly this year he’s too old and washed up is puzzling. Damon hit 24 home runs out of the lead off spot last year.
Not many guys have that ability. One year later it’s unlikely that he’s completely lost his skills.
Baseball is like the stock market. You sell low you’ll never see the peaks.
Im sure theres a very good chance for Farnsworth to be gone at the deadline. Proctor is here to stay. Inconsistency is just due to overuse with him.
Farnsworth is just plain useless.
Well said CB.
Mike,
I think Horne is pitching the second game of the DH. No word on Kennedy. I wonder if he got called up to AAA or they are just giving him a break? IIRC, he hasn’t pitched for Trenton since their AS Break.
SJ44 –
Thanks for your logical defense of Johnny Damon.
He played hurt almost every day last year and still put up career numbers. I believe he was “out of shape” to start the season because he was trying to heal some of the injuries over the winter. If you’re trying to let a broken foot/toe heal, you’re not going to be doing your usual running. And also the shoulder was a bit of a problem, too. So, it’s not like the guy sat at home and “just decided” not to work out.
CB that is what moron posters print.. Cano is a knucklehead and undisciplined at the plate he also hit 340+ lst yr in a full season. \\Melky is 23 I am not saying he will be Bernie WIlliams but the guy hit 280, with many clutch hits so of course he may be a player…
My angst and disdain are with guys like; myers, villone, nieves, etc.. Guys who are old or never done anythig….They will never do anything. Villone is 38 and the same for Myers why are they are the roster.
Duncan is worth a try. They are not showcasing him he is at this point no value, but he is playing very well at AAA so let’s see if he can help.
Vizciano looks good becuase of the competition(the rest of the pen) look at the BB’s to K’s for the pen, it is not a misprint it is that bad…..
I see that our worst hitter is batting leadoff.
I wonder what Torre thinks would happen if he bats Damon lower in the order.
By the way, this is not just a slump for Damon. He is having one of the worst seasons of his career.
Personally, aside from Mo and maybe Viz, I don’t think anybody in the Yankee bullpen is “here to stay”.
I would deal Proctor TOMORROW for the right deal. Now, when I say, “right deal”, I even mean for a AAA position prospect who is close to major league ready. A guy who could help them next year in the OF or first base.
We tend to overvalue our own. Proctor, Bruney and Farnsworth just aren’t good relief pitchers. I don’t care how hard they throw. When you look at their walk and baserunner totals, its clear they aren’t the answer.
Heck, they are looking to a AA pitcher, with barely 100 innings of professional experience, to replace one of them. That tells you all you need to know about the state of the bullpen.
My hope for tonight is, Johnny gets a few hits to get going, Joba strikes out 10 in 6 innings in New Britain, showing Cashman what he needs to see, Edwar gets in the game and shows well, and they get a win.
With Igawa and DeSalvo going tomorrow, this is an important game tonight. Would be nice if Moose can give them an outing.
Damon nonsense.
The guy is 32 not 40.. he hit 280+ last yr. with 85 RBI’s amnd over 100 runs for like the 9th straight yr.
I am not ready to bury him, yes he is in a bad funk and his power #’s are terrible but he is 322 not 40. These mysterious injuries what are they? Bad ribs or stomach, that is not catastrophic… He has been a very good(not great player) for years let it play out.. I like him at DH for 1 reason only and that is he cannot throw…..
Any way you look at it, our glaring need is for bullpen help. Myers has to go along with Farnsworth. We have Villone (he’s not spectacular himself but we don’t need two useless lefties) Give Ramirez some opportunities to show what he can do and then bring a rookie up and throw him in the bullpen. Anything will be better than what we throw out there in the late innings now.
I hope that he is in NB to see if Joba can pitch for us…and not to determine if he should be pitching for the Rangers (in a Tex deal).
Texiera is a good player…not great, IMO- I wouldnt include Joba, Hughes, or Tabata for him.
Joba K’d the first 2 batters, then ouch. Back to Back Hrs before a groundout.
Josh…I agree. Having Henn in AAA while Myers is up here (and Villone for that matter) is crazy. Get rid of one or both of them and get Henn up here (and Britton too)
Well if Cashman was thinking about bringing up Joba tonights outing may not push him in that direction.
Joba struck out the first two hitters in the first inning. Nothing new there for him.
But then the next two hitters hit back to back homers off of him.
Pete,
Could you also stop this ‘Beegcellent Baseball’ troll from advertising his site on here and posting nonsense? Thanks, keep up the good work.
Damon will regress back to his historical average level of play – his mean is probably a step down from where he was even last year, but he hasn’t fallen off this much – he’ll get hot soon enough.
Josh is right priorities are;
1. Pen Strike throwers.
2. Bench catcher and power guy and 1 dave roberts type
really that is there needs.
Sure Moose is iffy but they have long term solutions to that in the minors and if Moose is the 5th starter they need just a decent outing if Hughes comes back shich should happen.
they need a better pen and that will help in close games and help reduce the influence of the very hot and cold offense..
Look they lost yesterday(it does happen) but if Wang closes it out(ace’s do) then the 2 runs is enough………..
PEn Pen Pen……..
Doreen,
My whole deal is effort. If a guy is busting it, its all you can ask. I hate who dog it and Johnny Damon is no dog.
The four days I was in Tampa, 5 guys were there early everyday for hitting: Melky, Damon, Arod, Phillips and Jeter. Everyday.
It tells me they care.
Unlike Pavano, who didn’t care, Damon cares. We can’t kill guys for not trying to play through injuries, then kill them for trying to grind it out. Can’t have it both ways.
They need Johnny Damon. He hasn’t hit but, who got the walk to start the 9th inning rally the other night? Damon. That’s what he brings to the table. They need him to be the leadoff hitter he was last year. Even if its just for a month or two this year.
The offense is better when he is on base. That’s indisputable.
They don’t have anybody else who can hit leadoff. Melky can’t do it. Everybody else gets out of whack in the lineup if you begin messing around with it.
He just has to keep grinding and fight his way through it.
I agree with CB. You just don’t “lose it” that fast.
Yes, he was overweight coming into the spring. However, he isn’t the first guy to report to ST overweight. Not an excuse but, it is what it is.
His effort level hasn’t wavered. He just needs to get results now.
CB it happens, I assume Chamberlin is over hyped.. In the minors they do not necessarilly look at results but stuff, makeup, etc..
I doubt Joba’s career is scarred because of back to back jacks…
Stuart? 322 is older than 40.
SJ44 –
Yup. All you want to see is the effort.
Looks like they’ve already found a place for DUncan. Could this be a showcase for trade bait, or are they testing his big league skills as a possible piece to the puzzle. Either way it’s good to see him in there and I wish the kid luck. They could use something from him and Joba. Not surprised to see the Yankees keeping close eyes on a AA pitcher because they’ll need to reinforce the bullpen if they’re serious about making a run (and we all know they are).
BeegcellentBaseball
http://bryle.freehostia.com
Obviously I meant 32..ooops…….
If you look around the league, the best bullpens in the league mix young and experienced pitchers. We lack young pitchers in our bullpen, thats why we have problems.
A good example would be the Brewers (Turnbow, Cordero, and Villaneuva) or the Dodgers (Saito, Broxton)
The problem is our bullpen compares to that of the worst in the league the Reds (Weathers, Stanton).. Nothing but old age, not young talent to mix
Your right Asburyboss, its a waste to have Henn pitch in the minors. Myers or Villone have to go!
No matter what anybody says about how much we need Damon to do well, he is not getting it done. And predictions about him snapping out of it are worthless. He is terrible right now and it makes no sense to continue to bat him leadoff.
And players do drop off at the age of 32. It happens. Once again, this is not just a little slump. He hasn’t been nearly this bad since he was 22.
Stuart,
I was just letting the board know because there was talk of Cashman evaluating Joba’s performance for a potential call up to the pen.
Giving up back to back home runs won’t make it more likely for Cashman to want to call him up.
I think it’s good that Joba gave up the back to back homers. All pitchers are going to fail at the major league level and fact adversity. It’s good for young pitchers to learn how to deal with some of that in the minors.
Joba has perhaps faced even less difficulty in the minors than Hughes did. When Phil transitioned between A to Double A and then Double A to Triple A it took him a couple of games each time to get acclimated.
Joba hasn’t even had to overcome a transition in levels. It’s good that he has to deal with something like giving up back to backs.
I also don’t think he’s over rated. Just my opinion. If he stays healthy (big if with any pitcher) he has very special stuff.
CB no disagreement..
Yeah he has been pretty dominating and every knows it will not be this easy on the big club..
Hopefully he has the right psyche..
More learning going on in New Britain…
Joba just gave up his third home run of the night
i saw the big man in trenton last weekend… dude rules.
Josh:
Are you saying that the Dodgers mix veteran(Saito) and young(broxton)? Or that Saito and Broxton are young? Because Saito is around 36 years old.
Damn, Chamberlain not off to a good start tonite. 3 solo shot off of him and they’re not done with 2 innings.
Listen to the game thru milb.com for free, if you’re bored before Yanks start.
Rather than “rushing” Joba, who is rocketing through our farm system, why not promote Chris Britton, who has done the job at the Major League level? I’m a huge Joba fan. I hope he has a long career with the Yankees, and I’ve started following each of his starts, but why bring him up now? How about at least letting him face a few AAA hitters first?
I was saying they mix young talent with veteran’s. I know Saito is almost ancient.
No dominant bullpens are all veteran’s is my point. The top bullpens have all a mixture of young and older talent. Thats why we have the bullpen we have, because nothing but old arms.
Weird, Joba’s given up one HR all year between his time at A and AA. Tonight he gives up three with Cash in the house. I bet Cash takes that as a sign, whether or not it’s warranted.
Joba’s 2nd, K, GO, HR, Flyout.
3 K’s in the 2 IP, but also 3 solo HR.
He was due for a bad game, but with Cash in attendance, bad timing tonight, I guess.
Good observation, Ben. Yeah, before tonight, only 1 gopher ball in 74 2/3 IP. Then…
For whatever it’s worth…
1. I hope Johnny Damon gets it going. We need him at the top of the order, and he seems like someone truly worth rooting for. When looking at his track record, this season is clearly an aberration, probably due to several factors which we all know – injuries, and now slump. But given his track record, I would not give up on him, not at the “old” age of 32 (I think).
2. SJ44 – and whomever else – I also am rooting for Scott “Sparky” Proctor to succeed here, as he also seems like a guy I can root for, plus the fact that his baby had open heart surgery for complex congenital heart disease about a year ago, and he persevered through it. Having said that, I agree with you – almost everyone is available for the right deal. (I wouldn’t trade Jeter, Rivera, Posada or A-Rod. Wang only for Santana.)
3. While the thought of Joba Chamberlain coming up as the bullpen help is exciting, I hope he doesn’t wind up like Fausto Carmona did last year when he was tried as the Indians closer, or like Homer Bailey with Cincy this year. It sounds like Bailey is still having problems in AAA after having been sent down. I wonder if his confidence is shot after generating a 7 ERA (I think it was 7) in the majors.
Peter,
I wasn’t aware that I was posting like I was 12 ( I assume that is you calling me out and insulting me ) I’ll try to remain adult-like and “calmed-down” in each of any future posts as directed by the Great Peter of Oz. I know that this is your world, now. I am sure that I am the only one that gets excited or uses capital letters ( a transgression that should be a capital offense ) so it is good that you are making an example of me. How is this ? ” I would like to state that my opinion on the baseball game tonight is that the lineup posted has a very good opportunity to score many ( I will define many as over 7 runs ) runs tonight and that our pitcher is due for a good outing. I am hopeful that the newcomer in our 9 spot does well and that the bullpen gets a chance to rest before tomorrow’s double header. I apologize in advance to Great & Mighty Peter and all other posters that I may have offended in the past. I will be sure to never use a capital letter word to make a point ever again. I would like to assure everyone that I have calmed down a little as instructed and will remain calm while I am watching the Yankees and commenting on them. Getting excited about a baseball game is completely outrageous and is a behavior I will continue to try to terminate. “( is that better ? )
Whew. 3 solo shots. Well, it’s a blessing in disguise. I really don’t want to see Torre potentially wearing a prospect like Joba out the way he’s done with Quantrill, Sturtze, Bruney and Proctor.
Joba and Phil Hughes represent a bright future. I’d hate to see a rush job as this might have been inhibit their potential.
The problem with Homer Bailey was he relied on his fastball too much when he came up earlier this year. He didn’t throw enough offspeed stuff to keep the hitter’s off balance.
Call me weird but I like that Joba was roughed up a little with Cash in the house. This might lessen the chance, if any, that Joba was going to be rushed into the Yankees pen.
Now he will stay where he belonds, in AA developing and becoming a better STARTER.
Bringing him to the pen would be a mistake and a waste of Jobas time.
Did the Bronx is Burning air last night? My DVR didn’t record as intended or it wasn’t on??
Pete, did folks say Cash was going specifically to see Joba? I ask because Alan Horne was scheduled to start the second game of the DH (if they get it in), and Juan Miranda (our future 1B?) is also playing (and hit a double his first AB).
Chamberlain having a bad start is probably a blessing in disguise
JK – Bronx is Burning airs on Tuesdays, but they re-run them a lot, so check the listings.
JK, they are replaying the Bronx is Burning one final time I believe at 8PM tonight on ESPN2.
I missed it as well so I’m setting my DVR to that time.
New Episodes are on Tuesdays, 9 or 10 PM Eastern time.
Joba had to know that Cashman was going to be in attendance and that Cash wasn’t there to see if P.J. Pilletere was due for a call up to replace nieves…
I wonder if Joba is a bit nervous and overthrowing. He was overthrowing during the Futures Game and his command was off.
Joe from Long Island,
Carmona and Bailey are exactly the counter argument to bringing Joba up. If Hughes was the best pitching prospect in baseball last year Bailey was #1b. Just a couple of months ago John Heyman said Bailey would be better than Hughes. Now Bailey’s really struggling and I agree may have lost some confidence. His last outing in AAA was very poor. In the yankee system Tyler Clippard has taken a major step back since being called up to the majors early – Clippard has been bad in Scranton and still can’t find the zone.
I think it’s good to give them a taste of the big show. An example would be Matt Garza. The Twins brought him up last year and he got rocked. He went back to the minors developed a change-up and his first two starts back at the Major League this year, he has been absolutely lights out.
Does anyone think they Yankees may try to move Damon at the deadline. He could go a long way in bringing in either Teixiera or possibly a big name pitcher like Dontrelle Willis. Of course the Yanks would be giving up some speed and defense but they could fill big holes. This guy is playing his worst ball when they need him most. I doubt he’d be traded but it’s an interesting thought.
A taste of the show would be a September Call Up.
Nothing more, Nothing less.
This series is going loom rather large for the season ahead. Tampa has a history of giving us a good fight regardless of their record. Further, we are pitching a pair of batting practice arms this weekend in Desalvo and Igawa. If Mussina doesn’t return to form, this has the potential to be a very very painful weekend. On the other hand the sox refuse to finish us off with their dreadful play of late.
I think there is a lot more to the Duncan call up than the Cabrera non-injury play that so many are over ananlyzing. I also expect to see K-Ram at some point tonight an over the weekend. I believe there was a very serious discussion with the Cash Man, and just perhaps Torre will be a little more inclined to use his ‘kidz’ this weekend.
I don’t know how Joba can simply skip right over triple A and come to the majors without competition against more refined talent. The same characters on this board who lobbied against ‘mid-season’ experiments seem to be supporting this desperation move. Give him a couple of triple a starts first and if all goes well, by all means ship him up.
BJ
Beeg,
Who in there right mind would take Damon off our hands? He has 2 years and over 20 Million and salary left.
Why would a number 9 be a DH . If they really had to play this new Duncan guy , let him play the field and let someone like Matsui be DH . Even Jeter or A-Rod could use some time off the field .
Joba inning 3
K, single, DP
Trade Damon? Right. Like someone is going to take the $13 million/yr. salary and the two years he has left. Not to mention that Damon has a limited no-trade clause.
Bottom of the fourth. Joba loads up the bases and just gives up two more runs.
No outs and i think its first and third.
Eric. You do NOT want Shelley Duncan playing the field. He is below average defensively.
Quiet here today isn’t it?
“Not being able to hit isn’t an injury.”
I really laughed when seeing this conclusion, but from a fan’s point of view, it really is. Yankees really need more runs.
drag about melky’s injury. hitting or not, having damon’s “arm” in the outfield is a huge liability for this team, especially against a club like the devil rays. my guess would be damon and melky split tomorrow’s DH in center, each sitting the other game.
Joba’s 4th. walk, 3 straight singles for 2 more runs. K, Flyout, Popup.
2.05 ERA or thereabouts for the year before tonight. Due for a bad one…
so far 4 IP, 5 R all earned, 7 hits, 3 HR given up, 1 walk and 5 Ks.
Beeg, NO team is going to give up either Teixeira or Willis for Damon, even if Farnsworth is “packaged” along with him.
Isn’t that “speed and defense” you refer to part of the PROBLEM with Damon? Then you mention “this guy is playing his worst ball when they need him most.” If the Yanks are buying high/selling low — which is what this deal would be — they won’t get ANYTHING of value.
signed,
Mistress of the Obvious
SJ44 ==> “I would deal Proctor TOMORROW for the right deal.”
“We tend to overvalue our own.”
I would keep him because I think he’s one of the few bullpen pitchers that has some guts and fire. His numbers don’t read so bad either. The only pitcher – today – that is doing better is Vizcaino. A few months ago, I wasn’t on this blog, but I bet that most people were wishing he was gone. I certainly was.
From a commodity standpoint, if I were another team, I’d want to talk to the Yanks about Proctor because he’s one of the few current roster pitchers that has an upside and isn’t expensive.
Ultimately I’d like to see him as a starting pitcher next year. if I recall correctly, he did so this spring and did rather decently.
My opinion is based upon his talent. When I watch our starting rotation, not one pitcher has a fresh arm. We need aggressive hard pitchers that aren’t afraid to throw a strick and challenge hitters. Proctor shows the “cojones” to throw the ball past hitters. Whether he throws strikes, I believe he can do it.
Finally game time, I’ve been waiting all day..
I understand Melky is hurting a bit, but why would the answer to that be to remove your backup outfielder from the roster, add a DH with questionable defensive skills, and insert your current DH (who hasn’t hit in weeks) with questionable defensive skills into the field. Please explain that to me…
Joey said
“I would keep him because I think he’s one of the few bullpen pitchers that has some guts and fire. His numbers don’t read so bad either.”
I agree 100% for the reasons you state. I consider Proctor to be a good relief pitcher despite his failures this season. He has guts and fire as you say, and has shown us he can be solid if not misused. I may be wrong, but I attribute a lot of his failure this year to very poor pen management more than anything. I don’t know how dumping your second best pen arm amongst a sea of ineptitude helps this team.
Get more arms to help tow the line giving Proctor less work and he will improve dramatically.
BJ
Good way to start the game Moose.
Peter- The Yankees paid close attention to Hughes when he was in AA. Why is it so shocking? Cash obviously wants to make sure he doesnt trade away something special
Green Tea Torre “I understand Melky is hurting a bit, but why would the answer to that be to remove your backup outfielder from the roster, add a DH with questionable defensive skills, and insert your current DH (who hasn’t hit in weeks) with questionable defensive skills into the field. Please explain that to me…”
Is there anything Torre or the Yanks org can do that is right? I mean, if YOU want to manage a team then do it.
Crawford could have jogged to 3rd
Almost had Crawford, if the throw was on target.
“Damon and his agent (a Mr. Scott Boras of Newport Beach, Calif.) are not going to let the Yankees just throw him on the DL. It’s not that simple. Not being able to hit isn’t an injury.”
Is there any situation in baseball in which Scott Boras doesn’t have input? It’s almost like Boras is a “special adviser” to every team on which he has clients. I hope he gave A-Rod permission to hit home runs tonight.
Mussina looks really good so far.
Joba is done for the night. Pulled in the Fifth with men on 1st and 2nd. Probably the worst game of his professional career. He was due for a bad one and this game wasn’t good.
His command seemed to be off.
Walked the lead off hitter in the 4th and eventually loaded up the bases and gave up two runs.
Then walked the lead off hitter in the fifth and again loaded up the bases. Had the last hitter he was facing down 1-2 threw a 98mph heater the batter fouled off. The next pitch – single up the center plating two more.
Threw more change ups than curves.
Hopefully Horne comes back strong in game two. His last game was very similar to the game Joba had tonight (Horne gave up 3 HR last game also).
I can only imagine that the Moose Calls are ringing out!
Beckett is already close to 30 pitches through one inning. Yay! 0-0 still though.
Oh, that was bad
At least we made him work and Mussina had a good inning
Damon doesn’t look healthy to this observer. He has been swinging his bat like he has roller skates on. It’s almost like he has to generate bat speed by rotating his hips early and pops it up because he’s late/early on every swing. I think his back or ribs or torso is out of wack. This is a very obvious point but if he does find his swing, the Yanks will be putting up 7 runs a game easy. GO YANKS !!!!!
Michael Kay is an idiot
I’m kinda glad if Joba is having a rough outing tonight. We rushed Phil along too quickly, I’d be happy to see Joba spend the rest of the year in AA or maybe get promoted next month to AAA. Same for Horne, Marquis and Kennedy.
If we want bullpen help lets go after Cordero, he’d give us some insurance incase the unthinkable happens and Mo skips town next year. He is also the only top reliever available who has said he’d take a set up role somewhere else if traded.
We have a ton of great arms in the minors but it is time we all accepted it, the best ones just aren’t ready yet.
Tito ejected
Chamberlain 4.2 9 7 7 3 7 3 3.43
For what it is worth, Peter Gammons was on the Michael Kay show and said Chamberlain is between Bobby Jenks and Joel Zumaya… was very impressed with a recent start.
Tito is gettin suspended for this one
What did Francona do?
Argued the call. Manny got thrown out trying to score on a JD Drew double.
No Way! Tito and the Sox arguing something!
Anyone notice how Big Papi explains that PART of the reason his power numbers are down are because of bad strike calls? whatever.
Peter Gammons is an idiot too
So far so good for my man Moose!
E-gads, rough outing for Joba indeed…but as others have said, adversity is part of the process. And, he was pitching in New Britain? Isn’t that Pavano’s hometown? Ummm can’t we keep Joba away from there?
BTW what did Tito do?
Well actually JD Drew hit a home run but the Umpires called it a double. It was a close play.
Arguing that it was a home run. It was, blown call
Oh nevermind, my question has already been answered.
Speaking of boston, Contreras better pitch like it’s the 2005 ALCS tonight. As far as I’m concerned, he still owes us.
Francona had a complete meltdown. He was arguing with the crew chief for a few minutes and McClelland walked away and didnt want to hear anymore. It was a long argument already and then he went to the 1st base umpire and started yelling at him. McClelland came back and they yelled at eachother for a few more minutes.
Colorado Yank –
Dont get me wrong, I think Joba is gong to be great, and if he doesn’t start next year in the rotation, he’ll definately end it there. Chamberlain, Phil Frachise, Wang and possibly Kennedy/Horne/Marquis are the future of the team. We just have to be patient.
Or we have to say we have too many pitching prospects and not enough immediate help or position prospects and move someone. It is great to have depth but some of these guys aren’t going to make it past the group mentioned above and should probably be moved while they have value (Clippard/ White/ Wright/ Reyes).
A great website to check up on the prospects is http://mvn.com/milb-yankees/
Also check out their ranking of the prospects
http://mvn.com/milb-yankees/20.....pect-list/
Duncan’s big chance to impress..
Here is the moment of truth. Shelley “the righthanded Bambino” Duncan
Is it me, or do the walks that Damon and Cano draw lately help us out tremendously ? Where each one of them is batting in the lineup, having a relatively fast Yankee on the basepaths that is a threat to steal, goes a long way to tiring out the pitcher, both with the pitch counts and the throws each runner draws taking aggresive leads… I think Cano has to be credited for improving his patience at the plate. He has improved greatly.
You can see why he strikes out so much. He swings as hard as he can
I agree Alan
Second opportunity with RISP in 2 innings. lets not blow it
I think it’s safe to say he likes to swing the bat. LOL
Duncan was overall very impressive. I wasnt expecting the 2 foul balls that he hit
Damon has been hitting a lot of recent balls on the nose, just right at people. Duncan will get other shots today,… that first AB must have been a bit nerve-racking though…
bummer…oh well though, it’s only a matter of time before we get to this guy! It’ll be like deja vu all over again…only hopefully this time Moose gets some run support and the W!
Joey_V said:
“Is there anything Torre or the Yanks org can do that is right? I mean, if YOU want to manage a team then do it.”
I’d love to manage a team, but it seems like it would be too much work to get up off the bench every now and then and put down my green tea. And I probably couldn’t get hired.
But seriously, I think it’s a valid question…the yankees have a small bench as it is since they’re carrying 13 pitchers (and joe doesn’t use all of them anyway), and now they bring up a guy who probably won’t see much field time, send down a decent backup outfielder, all coinciding with an ailing outfielder? The timing strikes me as odd. Torre’s managing this year is at his all-time worst. I didn’t always think this way…
Yea, I think that was a positive sign with Damon. If he can get going and we can get that catalyst back, good things will follow.
I think he’ll start hitting soon.
I hope Moose leads yanks to a win tonight , or Drays would likely take 3 out 4 in series.
Thats some positive thinking for you right there
Here come the White Sox and here begins Beckett’s 2nd half collapse. Right on schedule.
Abreu is scared of walls!!!
Rattachewy, ,…..so you are saying that if somehow the Yankees lose tonight, they have little chance to take 2 out of the next 3 games ? I would have to respectfully offer my opinon and say that I do not agree with you. The Yankees, from top to bottom are a much better team than the DRays and even with our lower tier pitching on the mound for 2 games tomorrow, you can never count out for an entire 9 innings this offense. Regardless of the outcome of this game, which is in, what ?, the top of the 3rd with no score ?, I think the Yankees have a very good chance to take 3 or 4 out of 4 and continue our march up the standings.
Jim Thome 3 Run BOMB
this could be a long game
Thome 3 Run shot! White Sox lead 3-1
Heh, I guess Beckett is feeling a bit nostalgic for the top of the “most HR surrendered” list. Expect to hear Gammons blaming it on defective baseballs on BBT…
Yup, Mussina still sucks.
Now Mr. Mussina is actually on the correct number of days rest, right ? We did not disrupt his delicate schedule and allow him too much, nor put a limit on his rest so that he can blame management for his inability to pitch, right ? I just wanted to check so that I know who is to blame for Mike Mussina attempting to show the DRays 1-9 pitcher that there is hope for him yet…
*willing Mussina not to let BadMoose take over here*…resist!
Oh sweet jesus.
Loss tonight… two more losses tomorrow with two triple aaa pitchers starting.
I`m going to put on some music. Kay is just as annoying as the score
ugh. nevermind.
NO Alan – Muss just sat between innings for too long. Tell Cano no more walks!!
wow
The D-Rays, for some goddamn reason, always give the Yankees fits.. it makes no sense.
Loss tonight… two more losses tomorrow with two triple aaa pitchers starting.
Hey at least the bases are empty. With the Devil Rays pitching anythign is possible
The crappier our opponent is the worse we play. What a mystery.
I say again, it’s going to be a *LONG* game… time for Edwar Ramirez!
What is he doing???????????????????????
So when the coach was visiting the mound, did he say to him…”now please throw a Home Run Ball to this next batter ” ? because if he did that, then that is obviously the coached fault that the Home Run just happened and there is really no blame, again, that can be placed on King Mike of Mussina Land. It’s a good thing that Mr. Mussina never complains or anything like that, othewise, he may become the object of ridicule and psychological damage by his exposure to the ire of the attending fans when they boo him off the mound. All of this would be completely unacceptable for Mr. Mussina to have to bear….
ok now this officially blows.
Please give me back the Moose of 2005!!!
We Want Edwar
How bout Moose punches Damon in the face, giving them both a justifiable reason to be DL’ed?
Who would rather see Chamberlain? Or Hughes?
ladies and gentlemen, mike mussina!
remember, he’s not working with his regular catcher. this isn’t his fault.
There goes this game. wow 4 game losing streak heading this way.
Lol Alan
The only bonus to bein down this early is we may see Ramirez finally!
Wow, a K.
On the bright side our Chodah Eatin “friends” aren’t doing much better
this is just nuts. Why is this guy the only pitcher on the staff that REFUSES to put away the bottom of the order.
He is just a sucking friggin wastof space. I can’t believe this crap. Just ruins the previous 5 game winning streak. Thought we would put together another one tonight….
I think we’re unfortunately stuck with Mussina. Nobody else will want him and we won’t get anything for him. As infuriating as he is he`s been pretty solid lately. He probably is our 5th starter for this year and next year
Guys – we are facing the D’Rays. Please do not jump ship and declare the game over. We’ll get into their bullpen (which blows) and make some hay.
Just need to minimize the damage. Moose can be so frustrating at times.
Looking at Mussina’s curve why doesn’t try to drop it into the strike zone more often? It’d be unhittable
moose has almost 70 pitches already….in the 3rd!
The bigger travesty is that this team refuses to score off of the American League whipping boy.
FWIW though, I still think it’s a bit too early to count us out of this one for sure…it is still Tampa Bay! How do you know we don’t answer back in the bottom half?
although it would really help if BadMoose would leave the building immediately!! another walk Jebus, people will start confusing him with Dice-BB…
70 pitches and not even out of the 3rd. Absolutely disgusting.
I agree Ryan. I hate this team’s inability to hit with RISP. I know its mostly luck when they get their hits but its still annoying
I don’t think Mussina has it today. Get him out of there
Package Mussina and Farnsworth and give them away. He just sucks…. Mussina is just the worst… Crybaby Crybaby Crybaby.
Dude, grow some fuzz on those peaches.
good lord.
Edwar is up.. yay! yay!
Go Edwar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
throw a *strike*!!!
Ouch. With the guys tomorrow, this is exactly what was NOT needed.
Okay, top of the order now. Lets just get one or two of those runs back and hope the bullpen can come in and pitch solidly
Finally, inning over. And it only took him one time through their lineup to do it!
OK we need some SERIOUS offense!
well, i guess I can go mow the lawn or something since this game is over.
Too bad for you Ramirez guys, Moose got the last out.
What started all this? Because Jeter couldn’t get the leadoff guy?
Exactly TK, Jackson has a high pitch count and he has had a good outing by his standards so far. If we can pick up a run or two off him in the 3rd and 4th then we can definatley put enough runs on the board to win this one. The real question is can we get out of this inning?
Also if the pen pitches 4 or 5 innings tonight will they make it through tomorrows games? I bet Damon has always wanted to pitch, I say we give him a shot tomorrow.
One run at a time..
I ahte one pitch outs
At least he hit it pretty hard
MikeNYY, he doesn’t try to throw his curve for a strike. That’s what’s wrong with him. He tries to paint the zone instead of throwing strikes.
Honestly, he needs to hang it up. He doesn’t have anything left in his tank and he is too stubborn and whiney to continue in the majors.
Whaddaya think Alan, a 10 run inning and another W as good as in the books?
what the F happened to Moose?
jeez-US – moose can’t throw a strike – and the line up can take a pitch… one pitch groundouts… sheesh.
Colorado Yank, I agree
I think Guidry has to tell him to do that. I don’t mean ask, I mean order him to do that
Very very bad inning. Way to quick.
Terrible at bat by Jeter… He should have taken pitches.. This is nuts..this team has given up tonight, look at their at bats… another 5 game losing streak is no the horizen.
Way to work the count boys. Good job.
AUUUUUURGH why are we giving this god-awful excuse for a pitcher free outs on 1 and 2 pitches!!
Colorado –
I think Moose may not be stubborn about throwing strikes with the curve, he just wants to avoid whiplash turning around and watching slow-fastballs and knucklecurves go over the fence.
At least he got a nice breather between innings to regroup!
Man, I guess those other Yankees are back.
That inning just made me wanna break something. I need to go listen to Slayer.
casey… he is just being mussina. a waste of a roster slot.
That was just a terrible inning. WTF gets into this team. 3 of 4 from Tampa, 3 of 4 from Toronto and now they look like they did when they went to Colorado and San Fran.
Just unacceptable.
I know they are looking to be aggressive and swing at pitches they can hit, but they gotta give Muss a rest as well. Somewhere in the back of Jeter and ARods heads has to be the vet savvy to help out their pitcher when he is struggling – esp the day before a double header when the pen is gassed anyway.
1 hit by this friggin loser from Tampa… Can’t believe this crap.
That was *great*!! five pitches to get out of that inning.. by a guy with a 7+ era
what a lineup.
hey, where were you a few nights ago when the Yankees came back in the 9th inning. This game isn’t over
you know what’s as bad as mussina’s putrid 3rd? the at-bats the yankees put together in their half of the inning. just excruciating.
every time this team looks like they’re going to turn the corner, they lay a week’s worth of eggs and destroy their chances. boston is BEGGING them to make a race of it, and the yankees just can’t do it.
OK, he’s still thrown way too many pitches and blew way too many goats in that 3rd inning but at least he had an economical fourth. This game is not over yet guys, it’s the 4th frickin inning!! We still have plenty of time and plenty of possible Edwar. In the words of the great Steve Perry DON’T STOP BELIEVIN!
kasey I agree, but the BoSox fans are already in a low-grade panic mode. It is hysterical the way they pucker when it gets to mid-single digits. I think they instantly flash back to that 5 game sweep last year.
That left a mark! Lets do it a again in August!
Hey look, Moose just pitched a 1-2-3 inning. Give him a break. He could still pull it all together. Even with all the frustrations he`s caused us he still has been pretty good during his stay here and probably a top 10 all-time Yankees SP
Boston is playing horrible and the Yanks should be within 4 games of those jack nuts.
I am so pissed right now. It is friggin hotter than hell in Denver and the Yanks are playing like a slow pitch softball team.
C’mon guys what do you need to surgically remove your heads from your collective arses? Call Dr. Kevorkian.
What I really don’t get is how some of you guys think that a 4 run deficit in the 4th inning of the 1st game of a FOUR game series translates into a series loss. How does that add up? Man I’m glad I didn’t copy off some of you in math class back in the day!
Based on tonight, Jackson should be up for a Cy Young.
Hey, if we can get some these hit things then we might win
I can’t watch this crap. The Sox are LOSING, man!
Oh wait, base hit by Posada…I can see it now, Duncan will hit a grand slam.
The Boston rotation is going downhill fast though. Right now their best pitcher is Gabbard but there is every chance they’ll yank him in a couple of weeks for tha big 38 to come back.
Speaking of which there is no chance Boston will have him back next year with Gabbard and Lester ready to pitch. Any thoughts on where he’ll land?
I can see it now, Duncan will hit a grand slam.
JINXER
Come on Cano
Seriously this guy is 1-9. This should be BP all day!
17 outs to got Colorado – turn off the car and open the garage door, it’ll be ok. At least you don’t threaten to listen to SLAYER, (a fate worse than death
)
Wonder if Moose and Posada are mad at each other?
Any thoughts on where he’ll land?
Anywhere but here? I have a crazy suspicion that he`ll go to the Angels to torture us even more. Maybe some NL team like the Mets
“Any thoughts on where he’ll land?”
You mean 38pitches.com? I’ll take “fat camp” for $2,000, Alex.
Failing that, the nearest 24-hour Krispy Kreme…
3 innings with RISP. 4th inning. We`re due for a clutch hit.
BBB is a mathematical theorem that says, the Yanks offense died yesterday after the first inning. Tonight through 4 innings they are producing squadoosh. Matsui looks lost, Damon is clueless, Jeter is swinging at the first pitch, Abreu is pulling off the ball again…
So, no offensive, bad at bats, insufficient pitching = losing 4 of their next 5. Same scenario as Colorado and San Fran.
You know what? I definitely think Schilling will go to the Mets
We’re hitting him hard this inning but can we please get a friggin hit with runners in scoring position
It is only the fourth inning.
Those who are negative, enjoy something else you like and come back in the 9th inning to check.
Hopefully, Yanks win and you will be happy.
Good night for a come back. Boston is losing, Detroit is losing, Cleveland just starting.
LMAO at BBB
Curt “Red Light” belongs in NY, specifically Queens, NY.
Those bozos want some back page time, he’d give them a ton of back-page ink.
Damn, he hit that ball hard
“Wonder if Moose and Posada are mad at each other?”
Well if they are then one of them should buy the other a Porsche or a house or land in Montana or whatever it is that rich guys do for each other and then they can make up. They’re professionals making millions of dollars so I don’t want to hear about their personal squabbles.
Michael Kay needs to come up with a new definition for the word “deep”. My deep and his deep dont look the same
Just put the ball in play
Where’s Duncan fouling them off to?
duncan 0-2 with 2 K’s. get used to it, folks.
poor kid.
Damn it
We`ve blown a ton of chances. I want to win this game
Shelley is showing why hes a career a minor leaguer
Based on these two at bats and his approach how many think that Duncan will be successful in MLs?
Home team looking bad on both offense and defense. Abreu dogged it on that “double” by Navarro because of “wallitis”. Then Mussina starts thinking…uh-oh. Same Mussina that can’t hold on runners and doesn’t have command of his pitches anymore. Oh that outside fastball was on the inner third and in B.J. Upton’s eyes!
Need to DL Moose with a sprained ego. I know he’s too smart for this to happen to him…lol! Mussina is as much of a problem as Igawa, if not more.
Then in the bootom half: Jeter out on 1 pitch, Abreu on 2 and Rodriguez on 1. Way to take pitches from a wild 1-9 pitcher! They deserve to loose this one..they earned it!
Hmm somebody named Shelley Duncan has less plate discipline than Robinson Cano!
Where’s Duncan fouling them off to?
Well one was a Sheffield style foul HR in the upper deck
Shelly Duncan has alot of heart, ya gotta give him that.
Does he remind anyone else of David Weathers? Like, if you did a mash-up between David Weathers, David Cone, and Shane Spencer?
That’s what I want Moose
Torre tries to hide the kid in the 9 spot so that there won’t be much pressure on him and the poor guy has already left 4 on base.
I’m sure its Torre’s fault.
OK Joe, it’s time for 3 k’s Ramirez.
Heart doesnt hit the ball for you
FREE EDWAR!!!
BBFan… he is too much of a free swinger to handle the majors. In AAA the pitching is not as good so he can get away with it.
He is up for a week at the most, then back down.
This is starting to look like one of those 9-2 losses where a 7.0 era pitcher pitches like a CY. I hate this feeling.
cant let them get that 5th run!
BBFan… he is too much of a free swinger to handle the majors. In AAA the pitching is not as good so he can get away with it.
The problem with that theory is that this guy probably belongs in AAA
Go NYR said:
“Heart doesnt hit the ball for you”
No, but if you look like David Weathers, the ball might run away from you. Fast.
Getting shut out by Devil Ray pitching is just embarassing.
the ball hit to Jeter in the 3rd should have been an error. Poor guy goes to his left like 75 yr old lady.
Then can someone tell me WTF Abreu can’t go near the wall. That ball didn’t even hit the wall. It landed on the warning track.
Unbelievable how many times this season the Defense let the team now
Igawa and Desalvo tomorrow, Back to Square 1 again.
true
sorry for my typos
Can someone please explain to me why we can’t ever hit the bums?
the ball hit to Jeter in the 3rd should have been an error. Poor guy goes to his left like 75 yr old lady.
Then can someone tell me WTF Abreu can’t go near the wall. That ball didn’t even hit the wall. It landed on the warning track.
Jeter a poor guy?
If Abreu had one ounce of the guts that Aaron Rowand has….
Can someone please explain to me why we can’t ever hit the bums?
1) They party all night because they’re not worried
2)They think of it as HR derby and swing for the fences
3) They don’t bother checking the scouting reports
THAT is the game.
Prime example, if Melky is in center field Harris would have only had a single. Damon is a liability.
An Edwar Sighting!
Coco hits a base-clearing triple.
I guess you all got your wishes. Ramirez and Duncan iin ONE GAME! Its like a prize package or something.
BTW Joba gets selled and still strikes out 7 hitters.. Thats great
Meatball Moose©
Boston’s up 4-3
Joba blew, Moose blew, please Edwar give us something to cheer about.
Hitters have to be hitting over .300 with runners in scoring position against Moose. Is there such thing as clutch when we’re talking about a pitcher?
mel-Too bad it wasnt a bases cleaing triple play
nice picture of edwar on gameday…
I guess you all got your wishes. Ramirez and Duncan iin ONE GAME! Its like a prize package or something.
Lol
You just wait and see….
When we score 7 runs over the course of the next 5 innings, we will be in a very good position to take the victory in this baseball contest that is playing out in the Bronx, NY right now. It is my opinion that our collective frustration will soon be diminished to a degree that is mutually satifying to all who attend this glorious blog…
Edwar looks to me like he has great stuff but not so great control
Can’t they get the camera off of Moose in the dugout? The man is clearly trying to hold it together. That’s just cruel.
Go NYR – I think tonight “deep” means 20 feet in front of the warning track.
Not sure what that makes Upton’s HR.
…and I don’t mean Frank Torre
Edwar is off to a rousing start.
Mike NYY – 2 weeks with no action is not great for the control – at least 1st Base is open.
Mike NYY – 2 weeks with no action is not great for the control – at least 1st Base is open.
I know but I mean in general his control hasn’t been great
Does Edwar know where the strike zone is?
Torre looks like a kid in school in a particularly boring class
Edwar can’t find the zone tonight either. The curse of this season lives on.
Poll: Do the Yankees realize they are in a playoff race?
Hate to be negative but you really have to suspend disbelief to believe that this is a good team.
When your arm is rotting for 2 weeks in the ‘pen it cannot be easy to come in and throw strikes.
someone shoud replace the sunglasses with prescription lenses.
And this is why Joe Torre doesn’t call on him in the 8th inning of a close game.
nice – any more edwar fans out there?
:*(
OK, NOW I think it’s safe to say the game is over.
Welcome to Scranton El Cambio.
OUCH!
Maybe we should’ve sent down Edwar.
‘Screw you all, I’m goin’ home’
Well guys, I think I’ll go to bed early today
Okay, baring a miracle this game is over
Pathetic job by the offense and Mussina. You can’t blame Edwar he hasn’t pitched in half a month. The onyl positive to this game is that Edwar is getting his work in.
what the hell do you people expect? the guy hasn’t pitched in two weeks, it was inevetiable that he was going to suck when he came in for the first time.
Yea Edwar is the next closer of the future!
Maybe Torre really knows more about what his pitchers can do than we do. This is ugly.
Well everyone got their wish they got to see edwar.
No, actually you cannot put this one Ramirez. This is all on Torre. You cant not use a pitcher for 2 weeks and expect him to have pinpoint control.
Ok all of the naysayers, how about that come back now?
Sorry,games over. Look for a losing streak…4 in a row or at least 4 our of 5.
Argh. Antacids.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor????
I was still holding out hope that we could still pull a win out of this game, until a few swings ago.
Calls for Edwar to be the 8th inning guy fading away in 3….2….1….
And that’s all she wrote.
Monumental comeback in the making!
Guess those begging for Ramirez and Duncan should be careful what they ask for.
Guys, remember Torre hasn’t pitched him in two weeks. Even Rivera wouldn’t be pitching well on two weeks rest.
Edwar “the one inning wonder” Ramirez
Edwar is the obvious answer to all of our problems.
Cash sure has done wonders with our farm system.
After DeSalvo, Ramirez and Duncan, I can’t wait to see what else he has up his sleeve.
Okay I`m out
this is pathetic, but you couldn’t expect Edwar to pitch well tonight. His arm was rotting away for two weeks thanks to Joe.
I feel so bad for him.
everyone who posted that duncan and ramirez have considerable value and put up great numbers needs to apologize right now
there is a reason why you dont put alot of stock in guys in the international league or spend their entire career in the minors.
TKinDC …..” Germans ? ShhH… leave him alone, he’s on a roll..”
For all the people who chastised Joe for not using Ramirez in the past few games, well look at the results now…
Did he even record an out?
just…wow
its tampa bay and their starter haas a 7 ERA!
amazing that its 9-0, just amazing.
Sooooooooo….while we wait for the pitching change….anyone reading about this Harry Potter madness?
I don’t get why we couldn’t get Edwar into a game in the last two weeks. He was rusty and it showed. And now he’ll probably get sent down for DeSalvo, after barely getting a chance to show us anything.
guys we can’t blame edwar on this. he hasn’t pitched in almost 2 weeks.
If anyone should have been giving up 9 runs, it was Jackson.
The higher an opposing pitchers ERA is, the more the Yankees struggle. It is mind-boggling.
No, Moose went 5 2/3. Walk 2/HR/Walk 2.
can we trade moose? He has that pesky 10/5 clause, but maybe Cash can convince him to go elsewhere.
I’m out too, what a disaster. Can’t wait to hear Moose’s excuse tomorrow.
its unacceptable for moose to pitch like this against the rays..
seriously.. everyone was yelling and screaming for ramirez and duncan a month ago, thinking they know more about baseball talent then cashman and torre.. time to own up!
Lol we only need 9 runs!
http://24homers.com/
This might give you a laugh that makes oyu forget the Yankee game
Colorado, why do you even bother? If you think we’re done and the season is over then just bug out, we’ll live without you.
It is the Devil Rays we’re playing for the next 3 games and you think we’re going to lose 4 in a row. Pathetic.
Did you think we were going to go undefeated until Moose stunk up the joint tonight – it isn’t football, you lose a lot of games in a great season, let alone this roller coaster ride we are all on.
Oops, 4 2/3
I’m getting another drink! Hey maybe this game is like one of the rays games from last year. we can come back.
Myers took two pitches to do what Edwar couldn’t do with 19.
you can’t just judge edwar ramirez on this outing. if the yankees aren’t going to give him a chance they should just trade him or release him. I bet on another team that would give him a chance he would pitch much better.
You guys are insane. It’s Torre’s fault that Ramirez can’t find the strike zone? WRONG! I don’t care if he hasn’t pitched in a game in forever. Even Pavano hit the strike zone after not pitching in a game for 18 years. These are major league baseball players. No matter how long it is, he should be able to come in and not give up 3 walks and a home run.
Half the people here seem to think that if they aren’t on the Yankees roster, they are the savior.
I agree, this is as much Torre’s fault as it is Edwar’s. You can’t bench a guy for two week and expect him to perform. I’d be nervous about our young pitching prospects if I thought Torre would be managing them. Hughes will be ok b/c he’s unassailably good, but any young player who needs a little, you know, support from the manager would be fucked with Torre b/c he doesn’t give it. Torre is not good at managing young players. Torre ruined Edwar. Case closed.
Poor Edwar. Even if I did think we could come back I wouldn’t be able to watch this, it’s just too painful. And I agree, you can’t blame him, he’s been riding the bench for 2 weeks now and don’t changeup pitchers in particular need to get regular work?
Games like this are an enormous pile of suck, no one’s disputing that…but they are going to happen, to every team. The important thing is for the team not to let this affect them going forward.
Myers in to take one for the team = precisely what I wanted to happen. I’m going to go take advantage of the before-10 drink specials for once, and I just pray I will not return home to find out that Proctor pitched tonight.
Have a good one (considering the circumstances) everyone, and root for the Pale Hose. Go Thome/Konerko! At least we can still avoid losing ground…
Poor Edwar. Even if I did think we could come back I wouldn’t be able to watch this, it’s just too painful. And I agree, you can’t blame him, he’s been riding the bench for 2 weeks now and don’t changeup pitchers in particular need to get regular work?
Games like this are an enormous pile of suck, no one’s disputing that…but they are going to happen, to every team. The important thing is for the team not to let this affect them going forward.
Myers in to take one for the team = precisely what I wanted to happen. I’m going to go take advantage of the before-10 drink specials for once, and I just pray I will not return home to find out that Proctor pitched tonight.
Have a good one (considering the circumstances) everyone, and root for the Pale Hose. Go Thome/Konerko! At least we can still avoid losing ground…
After not pitching for 2 weeks there is only so much you can practically expect from Ramirez.
That said, the reason why he wasn’t brought up earlier was because at both Trenton and Scranton the coaching staffs said the same thing – Edwar needs better command of his fastball. This wasn’t a minor issue. They were very concerned about it. Even a week before his call up Dave Eiland the Scranton pitching coach was talking about Edwar and how he had to develop better command of his fastball if he was going to be successful.
In the end the major league bullpen was too weak and his numbers too outstanding to leave him down.
That doesn’t change the matter that there’s still work he needs to do on locating the fastball.
There was too much built up about him beforehand. He’s pitched poorly tonight but it’s far too early to jump off the ship and conclude he’s no good.
4 walks and a grand slam on only 19 pitches… hell, I coulda done THAT.
sorry for the double post
This is so frustrating. I’m not saying Edwar should be the new 8th inning guy, but he definitely showed potential in the minors and very few of our current bullpen pitchers have shown any potential all year. Edwar looked great when he first came up. He then sat in the bullpen for two weeks.
I didn’t expect him to do much when Torre finally threw him out there. Aside from being rusty, his confidence is probably shot since the bullpen has been very inconsistent and Edwar hasn’t been given so much as one shot in two weeks.
I read elsewhere that today on Mike & the Maddog, Torre said that he’s been waiting to use Edwar in a situation where he can succeed. Sounds good, but aside from sitting on the bench and clearly not being trusted by Torre, exactly what situation can you put him in to succeed? Even down 5-0, that is not “a situation in which he can succeed.” There’s a lot of pressure to come in and be some sort of savior. Every game at this point in the season is essential, and Edwar realizes that his every pitch will be scrutinized. It’s a lose-lose situation…
Have you ever come here and not whined the whole time you are posting here, Colorado Yank?
Any time I get my hopes high about catching red sox , game like this happen .
And before everyone starts blaming Torre, Cash, and god knows who else for Edwar’s “demise”, let’s not forget a couple of things:
1- He was released by the Angels … twice
2- He’s got all of two weeks in the majors
3 – All the games in the past few weeks were decided by three runs or less (except for the first TB game where we won 7-4 but that was right after the break and our staff needed the work)… not a good place to put a two week rook in.
4 – He’s a dabbler. Just like DeSalvo, Igawa, and every other 80mph fastball pitcher. Not exactly a recipe for “Mo-like” dominance.
Germans?
Forget it he’s on a roll
To echo what Josh and some others have said, this can’t totally be put on Edwar. His control was way off after not having pitched for about two weeks. There were opportunities to get him in games earlier and maybe that would have helped.
To be fair, his control was an issue in his second outing, but after his dazzling debut it would have helped to see him pitch more. I think that’s all any rational fan wanted. Not to slot him in to the 8th inning but to see more of this kid.
This game shows Clueless’s terrible managing in a nut shell. They have a double header tomorrow you HAVE to leave Mussina out there for 6 innings or until he gets to 115 pitches..no matter what the score is. Mussina once again doesnt give the team a chance to win. He has been absolutely a disaster this year. Then Ramirez pitched 2 times this month..Yes TWICE this month and Torre brings him in and expects him to get people out.
Once again this offense shows how terrible they have been all season. Who ever thought that they would lose 90% of there games this season because the offense never gets big hits or hits consistently.
Jackson is a disaster with a 50 era and they swing at everything in sight. What part of he cant throw strikes doesnt this team understand??!! What an awful offense.
Going into the last quarter, you just can’t give up. The Giants need only to score a touchdown and a field goal and we can send the Buccaneers down to defeat. We just need to start controllling the line of scrimmage !
I agree with you CB. edwar needs to pitch more regularly given that he needs to control his fastball. if he doesn’t pitch for 2 weeks, How do you think his control will be when he comes in to a game to pitch???
Exactly, I just feel bad for Ramirez, he doesn’t want to come in and give up a grand slam at Yankee Stadium.
For everyone slamming Edwar now, give the kid a freaking break.
When Joe Torre wasn’t using him, it was all “this is the right move — there’s a human element to the game — can’t throw the kid to the wolves”
Now he gives up a grand slam and it’s “see? get this bum out of the major leagues”
Maybe — just MAYBE — if he was shown a little bit of trust and given consistent work rather than made to sit on the bench for almost three weeks, he would have been able to make a better adjustment to the majors.
Now, for all we know, his career may be over.
It’s not all on Torre. Obviously, the kid can’t pitch like he did today to pitch better than that. But you CAN’T tell me that the way he was handled gave him the best chance for success.
It’s really sad. Young, unproven pitchers are put in a situation where they have ZERO margin for error, and then when they can’t handle it, it’s… “See? They sucked to begin with.”
Again, I’m not going to heap all the blame on Torre. But my heart just goes out to these poor kids like Edwar and Colter Bean before him. In the right circumstances, they probably could have done better.
who’s worse? Edwar tonight or Chase Wright 4 straight homers against red sox
I was not a great supporter of Edwar.
Still, it is not fair to him that he was not used in 12 days and so he does not have control.
The pity is that he will be sent back tomorrow, my be even after this game and he will never get another chance at least this year. With due respect to all Torre apologists, it is either over use with guys like Proctor or under use with yongsters like Edwar. Irrespective of what happens this year (I still beleive Yanks will make it to the playoffs), next year this team needs a manager who nurtures youngsters. It is about time to stop living in the past and make the necesary changes for the future. If it is a business, the CEO (the equivalent of the manager) would have be fired long back….
With a double header tomorrow, especially with Igawa and Delsavo pitching, it’s tough to see our bullpen come in this early. Hopefully, Igawa pitches like he did in Japan and Delsavo pitches like he did in Triple A. Of course, our offense has to click. Chances are slim but I think we can do it.
did you all hear what michael kay and al leiter just said?? they just said that it doesn’t matter who you are. if you haven’t pitched since july 6th or have a 2-3 week layoff, you are not going to be sharp. so let’s support edwar guys.
We better do it.
There’s no denying that Torre does over use specific pitchers. aka Proctor
CB, Good post. Edwar clearly isn’t perfect and game ready but the long lay-off certainly didn’t help. I’m not willing to write him off yet.
Green Tea. Excellent point. Joe could have used Edwar in some close-ish games (3 run leads) with a tight rope and gotten him work. My feeling after tonight is that he’ll be sent down for Britton at least for the first game.
Obviously, you have to put some blame on Edwar’s shoulders. But in all fairness, the deck was stacked against him. We all know Edwar hasn’t pitched in two weeks, but there are other factors at play here.
Edwar probably put a lot of pressure on himself knowing that
(1) The Yankees need to win a lot of games to make the playoffs, and they should crush Tampa. Edwar was out there to keep them in the game.
(2) The Yankees are carrying 13 pitchers and someone’s getting sent down tomorrow for the doubleheader. Edwar would probably prefer not to be that guy.
(3) Being that he hasn’t pitched not only shows his rust, but also shows the manager’s distrust in his ability, especially since the rest of the bullpen has been horrible for the most part.
Angel, yes, June 15th, 5 consecutive posts. Had nothing but straight opinion about this unproductive team.
ooops, I mean nothing but whining (obvious statements)about this unproductive team..
I am sorry if my comments offend or bug you, but unlike you, there is no excuse for a team with this payroll and talent to perform like this. If you cannot give 100% and strive for perfection, you become Tampa, KC, Pittsburgh, etc. Perhaps you are fine with those teams, you might even be fine with a league where everyone gets to bat and no one gets an out, better yet, no one loses. That would be perfect, sappy silly league to make even the biggest losers feel like champions. Wow, start the league right now.
For me, no. I want to win, win every game, no excuses for mistakes, no excuses for not piling on teams that should be beaten. None!
But, you can always just take the other road and just ignore my comments like everyone else does.
Cheers!
If I have to hear that Edwar was released twice by the Angels again I am going to puke. He did not throw the changeup when with the Angles. The changeup is the reason why he found success within the Yanks minor leagues. The guy rotted away for two weeks; it was inevitable that he was going to suck.
I say lets support edwar if not for this year, for next year.
This should be a great series. Tomorrow batting practice Igawa and Desalvo. Igawa better be sent down tomorrow right after his home run derby game. The bullpen is going to be beat up by tomorrow..Mop up man Myers better be ready to pitch. Knowing Torre we will see Proctor pitching in 12-0 and 10-0 games. Tomorrow will be perfect games to pitch Farnsworthless in.
this is his third time pitching ,but I remember the second time when the time he got the game “win” ,he didn’t perform well too, he can’t throw strikes that time,that why Joe Torre never use him in a close game,and Yankees have been playing close game in the last several games.
Peter:
Aren’t bullpens very different from pitching to live batters in a game? It’s hard to stay sharp in the bullpen. especially for a young kid.
Al’s plan sounds great, but it won’t work with Moose losing it when his defense fails him.
(don’t look now, but the score in the CWS/BOS game is 5-3 Red Sox, top of the 7th; Minn over LAA 7-4, top of 4th; KC over Detroit 6-2 bottom of the 7th)
Today never happened.
exactly yankeejosh. it is very different than the actual game.
Edwar should be sent down again – not because he “deserves” to or not because he can’t cut it.
He needs to get back into getting regular work. It’s for his own benefit.
This is one of the dangers of calling up a prospect, particular one who is still developing.
Now when Edwar goes down, if he puts up those absurd numbers again it’ll still be hard to know what to make of him. His era was 0.48.
When that happens in the minor leagues (and while rare it does happen) its either because the pitcher is Tim Lincecum or the pitcher most likely has some pitch that essentially acts like a trick pitch that minor leaguers just can’t figure out.
Edwar changes up on his change up and changes up on that. In the minors they just couldn’t figure that out.
Even a guy as good as Lincecum – his 0.29 era before he came up was the result of his dominant fastball but much of it was do to the deception in his delivery. Lincecum’s fastball isn’t that much better than Homer Bailey’s or Joba’s. But his numbers were much better at AAA than either Bailey’s or Joba’s at AA.
There are no true trick pitches in the majors (besides the knuckle ball). Lincecum has found that out. Edwar may as well.
I like Edwar and hope he does well. It is however difficult to project his numbers because there is a disconnection between his numbers and his stuff. He’s so unusual. He has a 70 change up (scouting scale 20-80) so he literally has one of the best change ups in baseball.
The question is at the major league level how is a 70 change up going to work if major leaguers just sit on it because he doesn’t have great command of his fastball?
I don’t agree with casual Yankees fans who parachute in and say that Torre should have used Edwar a lot of times recently. The team has been winning close game after close game. I can’t remember a “laugher” in the group where we had free innings to give Edwar a chance.
The place where I might have thought about putting him in was up by 3 in the 8th the other night, but we won the game with Mo getting 5 outs.
I hope he can find a role and be part of the winning formula here, but Joe’s job isn’t to perfect El Cambio, it is to win games any way he can. This bull pen has stunk except for Mo and Viz lately. Maybe Joba and Edwar can make it a great pen before October.
JMHO
Theres going to be alot of pressure to even just win one game tomorrow.
Well, another gutsy performance by the Moose. And while we’re talking gutsy, let’s give it up for that great catch by Abreu in the third inning, the one he didn’t make, that led directly to the big inning.
Bobby “el como dulce” Abreu. That’s Sterling’s radio call for Abreu, “Bobby Abreu – el como dulce, Bobby Abreu’s as sweet as candy!” But as my girlfriend and her mother would say, it’s more like: Abreu es un pendejo! I’ll skip the translation.
I think Edwar could have gotten some more work over the last two weeks, but seriously, even if you are on fire or drowning in that situation, or your freakin arm is coming off, you don’t walk 4 guys and give up a granny.
sunny615 is right on all 4 points about Edwar. Teams release a guy for a reason.
Just a sickening game. Except for Jetes and Phillips.
Its just insane how a pitcher with a 7 ERA can come into Yankee Stadium and shut out the Yankees. It doesn’t make any sense at all.
Edwar will be sent out for another pitcher. We need someone to back up Igawa. Than Igawa is gone for Matt. Than another move will be made.
Anybody blaming Torre for Edwar tonight is out of their minds.
Please people, think a little bit. There is ZERO excuse to be Colter Bean-like out there. I don’t give a crap if he hasn’t pitched for 6 months.
His problem has always been lack of control with the fastball. If he can’t do that, he will get smoked at the big league level.
Hell, people thought on this blog he should pitch 8th innings. Imagine if this implosion cost them a game?
There are reasons why you don’t hold open tryouts in July for pitching spots. Its a pressurized atmosphere and some people can handle it and some can’t.
Look, I like the kid but, tonight was as soft a landing spot as he could get and he failed bigtime. Just man up and deal with it.
Its not Torre’s fault he couldn’t throw the ball over the plate. Its not Torre’s fault he gave up a grand slam to a .170 hitter.
That’s on Edwar.
The world ain’t fair and the world ain’t perfect. You get a shot, make it work. If you can’t, you are gone. That’s the way it goes. No excuses, no blame. Unless you want to act like Mike Mussina.
Send him down tomorrow, let him pitch the rest of the year in AAA and think about him in the mix for the ‘pen next season. But, don’t COUNT on him unless he can spot his fastball for strikes. If he can’t, he is useless to this team.
They already have 6-7 guys on this team that can’t throw the ball over the plate. They don’t need another.
He’s not even the culprit for tonight’s debacle. That falls on Mussina.
Once again, he has his team out of the game by the 4th inning, nibbling, whining and being unable to get outs. Same ‘ol, same ‘ol for Moose. A pathetic start in an important game. Inexcusable. Couldn’t even give them innings. Pathetic.
I feel bad for Edwar but, I have no such sympathy for Moose.
He’s just awful. But, you gotta deal with it and move on.
Good thing about tonight. It only counts as one loss and its a learning experience for the perennially whining “Torre is clueless crowd”. Consider it a lesson learned.
Its time for Igawa and/or DeSalvo to step up. That’s what baseball is all about. My gut tells me DeSalvo will pitch well tomorrow. Not confident in Igawa.
Joba? Seems to me he got caught up in the thought of getting called up and got smoked. It happens and that’s baseball. He won’t cower and he will be fine. I bet he is lights out in his next start.
But, it serves as a warning for all of us who may think guys are “ready” for the show based on minor league performances. Its a whole different world when expectations rise.
Its why organizations, at least good ones, are loathe to rush their prospects.
Okay, Bottom of the 6th, down 9-0 with a doubleheader tomorrow. Time to call off the troops? Let Nieves catch the last 3 innings?
Forget about Edwin Jackson. The game changes when a guy has a 4 run lead early.
That’s why its so important for your starting pitcher to keep your team in the game. Once a team has a big lead, AB’s are different.
Give Igawa a nine run lead and he will even look good.
Well, maybe not, but you get my drift! lol
well it was still good to see edwar strike out the side in his debut.
Pete,
I’m glad you’re here to straighten us out. The “fans and the media” who find minor league stats meaningful, that is.
On what basis do you assert that minor league stats are fairly meaningless? That’s quite a statment. I don’t think there is a consensus on that issue so maybe you shouldn’t be so strident. Isn’t that what Moneyball was all about? The old scouts(the old guard) in the book agreed with you, that minor league stats(and stats in general)don’t mean much. But Beane and his people, the ones who’ve had enormous success with a small payroll, thought the opposite. Also you sort of contradict yourself; at first saying the layoff is no excuse for Edwar’s poor performance, then saying he got screwed. I guess contradictions happen when you’re trying to please two masters(Torre and the Truth).
I know you love “i told you so’s” even if you never actually say it, so I bet you’re thrilled with Edwar’s flop; this must be the best game for you since Hughes busted his hamstring. Maybe you can go make Edwar cry and put the audio up on the blog.
I can’t argue that Mike pitched like crap cause he did. But he certainly had no help. Jeter should have had that ball and Bobby needs to learn that the walls are NOT electrified!! You can touch them. He ran away from that ball!
CB-
I would totally agree with you if the problem with El Cambio is that he is get smacked around. But really his problem in the bigs (with a miniscule sample) is control.
Control = Guts = confidence from experience.
If you are afraid of bats like DeSalvo seems to be then there isn’t any immediate solution but to go down a level and rebuild.
I wonder I Joba knew that Cashman was watching tonight and folded. I hope not, but I think that may be the case.
SJ44:
May 4 at Seattle: Yanks scored 5 in the first and Igawa gave it all back.
July 5 against the Twins, the Yanks scored 5 in the second and Igawa gave it all back.
Just saying that even with a big lead he is hard to trust.
seems like ever rookie the yankees have brought up with the exception of hughes have completely bombed.
Jennifer,
That may be true. But, its a game of mistakes. Nobody, and I mean nobody, crumbles as much as Mussina when something goes wrong. You can’t be like that.
Errors or misplays happen. Just like leaving crap breaking pitches in the middle of the plate happens. You just have to deal with it and move on.
That’s always been my problem with Mussina. The slightest thing goes wrong and he crumbles. He never minimizes damage and is the first guy making excuses after the fact.
Not my kind of guy in a clubhouse or on a team.
Stuff happens in a game. If you are going to fall apart over an error or a misplay, and you have played in the league for 17 years, the problem isn’t the misplays, its you (Mussina).
That’s just unacceptable to me.
I disagree with Peter on this one. Torre needs to take some responsibility for that performance of Edwar.
Angel, would I be whining if I posted that our corner outfielders can’t are just average and are afraid of the wall?
Pete this the first time I’m gonna say that’s a bunch of BS !!!!!
they already did the damage on Edwar Ramirez , he hasn’t pitched for 2 weeks !!!!! how the hell is he suppose to pitch consistant in that spot, he hasn’t seen the back stop since July the 6th , it happens to Mo, it happens to any relief pitcher !!!! it shows how ridiculous Joe Torre is w/ his so called trust, just look at the dugout Edwar has his head down thinking this is on him when Torre hasn’t pitched him in damn near 2 WEEEKS !!!!!
I hope tonight’s game shuts up all the amateur scouts on this website. Duncan can’t hit ML pitching and Edwar was cut twice by the Angels for a reason. Their success at Scranton was an aberration as the ML scouting reports would have predicted. Save it folks. We need to start looking at the regular Yankees to start producing. Moose and Damon look cooked. The off season should be an interesting one, but the Yanks have saddled themselves with contracts they can’t move. Tomorrow is going to be brutal, but once Hughes comes back, I’ll be OK with Moose as the fifth guy.
No way. Edwar threw 2 strikes (one left the yard) and 19 balls.
A walk or two may have been excusable with his lack of work, but not four walks.
Rust isn’t an excuse for a 10:1 BB/K ratio.
I don’t remember Peter blaming Rivera at the beginning of the year when he wasnt sharp becase he was rarely used. Seems a little hypocritical on his part to be telling Ramirez to “suck it up and throw strikes”.
Josh,
I agree. I was saying it tongue and cheek with regard to Igawa.
But, you get my drift though. The game changes for a pitcher with a big lead. Everyone but, Igawa that is.
Just a rotten night. It happens. Hopefully, we get surprised tomorrow.
I never subscribe to the position of predicting games off matchups. I see people do it and all it does is give them a platform to whine if things don’t go according to plan.
They play the games for a reason. If it was easy to predict the outcomes, we would all be in Vegas tonight getting rich.
Just gotta take it day by day.
From now until next Sunday is going to be a very important stretch for the Yankees. Eleven games, eight on the road, against teams they need to beat.
A repeat of the Col, SF, and Baltimore experience could kill them. They just have to man up and find ways to win these games, regardless of what happens out there.
SJ44, the Igawa stats are interesting but to fit in with this season and the lack of sense it has made, watch Igawa go 6 IP, 8H, 1R, 1 ER…. Yanks win 8-3.
oops, Angel, does this qualify for not whining or whining
No Colo, you wouldn’t. Matsui is another one who is a horrible fielder. damon if he can get on his horse he can get to balls. But his arm is horrible (not that that is news to anyone!!) But right now we have 3 pretty bad fielders out there. Melky get well soon!!
I didn’t need to see Duncan hit Major Leage pitching to be able to say he won’t have the same success. He swings at anything and as hard as he can everytime. That’s a recipe for failure in the big leagues.
You know, I think the only people who should be allowed to say anything other than “I agree” or “I disagree” are SJ and maybe one or two people SJ picks.
It’s a shame what the internet has done to people. It makes a whole bunch of nobodies experts in anything they want to be an expert in.
Peter, anyway you can set it up so only SJ and only people he chooses can post? It makes for much better reading.
Post what you like. I will take your advice and skip over your posts in future. No loss.
TkInDC,
Don’t put too much into Joba’s start. It’s only his second bad game as a professional. He struck out 7 so he missed a lot of bats and was hitting 98 on the gun.
His command was off. He threw a lot of change ups and may have been working on that pitch. His command was a bit off. Could have been the all the talk about coming up, but given how fast he’s already moved through the system that’s understandable.
Joba’s had less difficulty in the minors than Hughes. Pitchers need to get hit around before they get to the majors.
As Edwar found out tonight. It’s part of the game. You move on.
I ahve missed the game and I am not reading 400 comments so here it is..games like this occur that is why Wang not being the ace really hurt.
I have not seen anything yet but sure Ramirez should have thrown strikes but the guy did not pitch for 2 weeks.. too bad. he needs to suck it up and get it back together.
Petes comments on DUncan are not suprising that has been his MO for yrs. he needs to learn else they will abuse him at the ML levels..
Bad game…..
Chuckles,
Exactly. Rust lasts a hitter. Maybe two. Its not like he wasn’t throwing bullpens.
People have to stop blaming Torre for everything that goes wrong. The performance is on Edwar. Torre didn’t ruin him.
Please. If that “ruins” him, he’s in the wrong business.
There isn’t a pitcher who has ever thrown a ball who hasn’t had a performance like that. That’s the game. Its not forgiving.
There are reasons why he wasn’t used in bigger situations and tonight (and his last outing) showed why.
I hope he gets sent down to Scranton, finishes the year there, plays winter ball, and works on his weaknesses.
I would love to see him in the bullpen mix for next year. Just not for this year. He’s not ready and he isn’t the answer.
SJ44, Peter, …..
If you are ready to heap praise on Joe Torre when the team is successful, you should also be ready to hold Torre accountable when the team is not performing. It is sickening hearring all the time it is the players and the manager has nothing to do it.
Will it be fair to say that 1996-2000, it is the players who won it and Joe has nothing to do it especially given his failure at every stop as a manager before?
On the bright side Andy is still hitting!!
Phillips has defintely been a bright spot. No need to upgrade at 1B. We’ve found our guy.
ANDY!! Shutout gone!
Sorry, but the more you see of Edwar the more you realize that a reliever whose best pitch is a changeup is a marginal MLB talent, unless it’s a great changeup and his control over his other pitches is great too. A good reliever whose best pitch is a changeup (like Foulke when he was good) is unusual. That ain’t Joe’s fault – that’s baseball.
But the Torre haters are always right: Either Joe uses a pitcher too much or he doesn’t use him enough. How about Joe knows that Edwar is really not too talented and he didn’t use Edwar much over the last two weeks because Joe didn’t want to get beat with less than his best relievers out there?
When is Mussina going to “suck it up” ??
My point should have been you got to win the games that are yours to win and this yr. they have given away numerous games.. Wang could not close the game twice…
I wonder if these games will come back to haunt him. watching Shelly, yeah he better learn about the breaking ball. He is like Cust but hopefully he can walk also..
BBFan,
I am no Torre lover, but please, what failures did Torre have between 1996 and 2000?
I would be interested in seeing that list.
Looks like it took Tampa a pitch or two to figure out Mr. Duncan. Brutal.
SJ44. I do get your point and agree.
Edwar certainly deserves his share of the blame for the way he pitched tonight. But not having pitched for two weeks certainly didn’t help. Either way, I’m not going to give up on Edwar after one putrid outing. I’d like to see the team keep him up for tomorrow and throw him back out there and hope it turns out better. Maybe it would help his confidence.
SJ, you are right on. I think the Yanks need to go 9-3 over the next 12 to be in a contending position on July 30. Kay was right that this loss would not have been as devastating if we’d pulled out the game yesterday.
Atleast he runs hard.
Mussina is disgusting. Can’t stand the guy…what will it be tonight? Did the game start at 7:07 instead of 7:05? One more year of him? ughhh.
Edwar was brutal too, but c’mon, let’s be fair to the guy he hasn’t been on the mound for 2 weeks. Not the end of the world for him…probably the end of his Bronx lease for a while but he’ll be back.
Myers has to finish this game.
Shelley Duncan can run a bit, huh? gets down the line pretty good.
Yesterday’s game hurt more than this one…Wang I expect to win, Mussina I don’t.
Well, at least Shelly didn’t strike out.
Murphydog yourremarks are stupid. SOme guy names named trevor for San DIego throws this changeup also, he has had a decent career. His fastball is about 7 mph’s below ramirez also…
When everyone in the bullpen(except Mo) came to the game and walk a lot of players, you need to start to ask if there something wrong and what is Joe’s part in the problem.
Joe will finish this season and probably not come back next year, because with all the young talent in the farm system, we need a manager that know how to work with pitchers and Joe proves year after year that he can’t.
The people who want to throw Edwar under a bus because of today’s outing absolutely sicken me.
Is it all Torre’s fault for not giving him work? No — of course, at some point the kid has to buckle down and throw a strike. And if he can’t do that, he’s not going to make it as a major-league pitcher.
But taking today’s performance and saying “his minor league numbers are meaningless”, “Joe didn’t use him because he knew that he was no good”, “he was thrown in the garbage heap by the Angels for a reason”, and so on is horrible.
Three outings (one briliant, one hellish, one somewhere in between) is _simply not enough evidence_ to judge a guy on.
The kid obviously has some talent and deserves a chance. And a “chance” means a little bit of trust and consistent work — not pitching once every three weeks with zero margin for error.
Today’s miserable performance is as much (or more) on Edwar himself than on Torre. But you _can’t_ tell me that the way Joe handled him put him in a position to succeed.
I hope he can go back down to Scranton, get some more consistent work, and get another shot either later this year or next. If this ends up being the end of his career, it’s really tragic for the poor kid.
His big-league “audition” could have been handled much, much better.
CB-
I really hope you are right and that this is a learning experience for him. My dream scenario is that we get rid of Farnsy and slot Joba into the 8th inning.
The downside is that we could damage his confidence. Torre on the FAN today seemed to want him up badly but said something like ‘this organization guards young pitchers carefully’ and ‘don’t get me into trouble by asking for him’.
Gene Michael also apparently thinks we are too careful with young pitchers for what its worth.
Torre said he has never seen Joba pitch (!!!!!) I can’t believe that. But I would gladly mix in a 95 m.p.h. fastball between Viz and Mo.
David,
Read my note again.
I did not say that Torre was a failure 1996-2000.
My point was if he gets credit for 1996-2000 which he should, then he is also responsible for 2001-2007.
“Minor-league stats are fairly meaningless when it comes to projecting how a player will fare in the majors. Too many people, fans and media alike, see good numbers and assume a guy can play. There was a reason the Yankees waited so long to bring up Ramirez.”
And too many people, fans and media alike, see “the look” or some generic “tools” and assume a guy can play.
I’ll take the numbers any day (statistics are, after all the recording of what happens in baseball games; and I do believe that Baseball Prospectus writers would have a field day with your particular comment) but bad outings happen. We don’t know what Edwar would have done in a regular workload because he hasn’t pitched since he was awesome those 2 times, like 8 years ago. Still, bad outings happen and he probably should go back to AAA until he gets his head on straight.
As for that last sentence, this organization has, in my view, shown an unwillingness to try something different when the “proven vets” are washed up. It’s why Farnsworth has pitched in the 8th inning 100 million times, it’s why Damon continues to lead off despite hitting one ball hard since May. It would not be out of character to hold a guy in AAA in favor of the awful fifth starter who was signed to the monster contract.
Look, this is just a rant because we’re getting our asses kicked tonight – obviously nothing personal, Pete.
How many double agents will Cashman sign? Embree, Bellhorn, Damon, Myers. Who is next? I know Millar is available. Why not bring him in and play for draft picks? AWFUL.
Chuckles: Right on: Rust isn’t an excuse for a 10:1 BB/K ratio.
Josh wrote: I don’t remember Peter blaming Rivera at the beginning of the year when he wasnt sharp becase he was rarely used. Seems a little hypocritical on his part to be telling Ramirez to “suck it up and throw strikes�.
Hey Josh: So you can’t tell the difference between Mo and Edwar? Mo is the best there ever was. Edward has yet to prove himself. Thus, Edwar needs to suck it up and throw strikes.
Murphydog:
Look at it another way. Mo is the best there ever was and even he couldn’t handle the irregular workload. If Mo had trouble, how is an inexperienced kid like Edwar supposed to adapt to not pitching in two weeks?
I agree, SJ.
Blaming Torre for everything is pointless and way too easy to do when the team isn’t playing well.
It’s a shame this happened to Ramirez, but the kid has to throw strikes if he wants to stay.
Unfortunately for him, after this outing, we won’t see him again this season unless he gets the September call-up.
I think Albany Yankee had a good point as well with so many amateur scouts on this blog who think the Yankee brass is stupid.
These guys watch these kids everyday and they have a far better idea what they can handle and what they can’t.
Snap:
First off, read Moneyball before you comment on it. It was mainly about using stats to evaluate amateur players, which is a much easier process because of the consistent level of competition in the better leagues like the SEC. AAA stats are often way unbalanced because there are so many non prospects in those leagues. AA stats are much more projectable.
I also never said that Torre wasn’t responsible. He is to a degree and I guarantee you he will say that tonight. Guarantee it. But at what point can you keep missing the strike zone? At some point you have to throw a strike. Every outing isn’t going to be under perfect conditions. It rains, it snows, your team is way up, way down, etc. At some point you have to throw a strike.
The Yankees aren’t the Charleston RiverDogs. Torre has to win games, not develop kids. Is he supposed to think to himself, “I’d rather use a guy I know in this spot but that skinny kid need the work. I’m sure Steinbrenner won’t care if we lose.”
It’s the Major Leagues If it was easy. we’d all play.
As for me caring about how Ramirez pitches, give me a break. I’d rather see the Yankees win because I want to cover a good team and cover the World Series. That helps my career. But I get paid the same either way. How some kid pitches changes my life not one bit.
This team is soooo dissapointing. Just when they look like they are going take the AL by storm they give away a game late yesterday and get smoked today. Hard to stay positive, but I’ll try.
What do you think about moving Damon down to 9th and having Abreau bat first?
at what point does the name Ron Guidry get put into the spotlight here? Has any pitcher excelled under his tutilege? I cannot think of one. Nice guy, Yankee legend- but how is he as a pitching coach? I would say not good from what I’ve seen.
All these guys are taking steps back under him rather than forward…not good.
Minor league stats are not meaningless. guys do not get promoted unless they do well in the minors.
This statement does not mean if you do well in the minors you do well in the big leagues but if you fail in the minors you will not get the chance in the big leagues…
Duncan deserves the promotion and give him a few AB’s. He will strikeout alot up here but we need to see if he can hit with some power and have a decent OBP..
there problems when all is said and done is pitching pitching and pitching.
when is moose going to suck it up?/I do not know if he will ever suck it up and be effective again. I was listening in the carand it sounded like he pitched well in the first couple of innings but he blew up for a hcange I guess..
Moose is up there as my least liked players after kyle and abreu.. Kyle because he is a moron, cannot pitch back to back, etc, abreu for his wall illness and then Moose for his whining, complaining, rationalizing, etc…
The Yanks have 8 walks so far tonight…
Pete:
You are totally right except for one thing . . . even if it was easy, I don’t think I’d make CF for the Yanks.
sigh
I have no problem with folks questioning Torre or his moves. I do it myself.
My issue is with the same people complaining every day over EVERY move.
It starts with the lineup and it never ends.
Its IMPOSSIBLE for the guy to have the success he has had and be as dumb as some on here wish to portray him.
Some of the complaints, like Edwar tonight and comparing his situation to Mo’s is just insane.
Edwar is the last pitcher on the roster. He’s not going to get regular work. That’s just the way it is.
He isn’t Mo so please, let’s not go there. It not only isn’t logical, it isn’t fair to the kid.
When I listen to people a helluva lot smarter than me when it comes to baseball talk about Torre and tell me his strengths and weaknesses, I tend to listen.
When I read people writing the nonsense I read on here about him, I am going to call them on it and challenge their opinions. Last I checked, that’s what we do here.
TK,
Its not a surprise Torre hadn’t seen Joba pitch. He’s not on the 40 man roster so, he would be on the back fields in ST.
Guys in A ball, unless they spend time in the ML camp (as Tabata did this spring) are never seen by the manager.
Stuart:
Stupid? Try re-reading what I wrote.
What I said in effect was that effective changeup relievers are rare and must have great control over their other pitches as well as the changeup. Foulke or Hoffman are perfect examples. Hoffman is one of the best ever and he has a 1.80 ERA at the moment. Might be an indication that his control is – - as always – - pretty great.
Most other relievers, not just closers, don’t rely on changeups unless they have other good pitches to set the hitter up for the changeup. If you can’t get your other pitches over and don’t have a big enough fastball to get it past anyone, then hitters sit on your changeup or your alleged “fastball” and you get slammed. That’s what makes effective changeup relievers rare.
Do you get it now?
They better come back with a pretty inspiring effort tomorrow afternoon.
Peter,
>Do you really think all these guys came up from the minors and pitched under optimal conditions every >time? Look up the game logs, they didn’t. Clemens, Pedro, Glavine, etc. They all had things happen,
>starts skipped, etc.
Of course what you’re saying is true. But you’re also talking about starters who were considered star prospects (or at least promising ones). Even if they tossed in a clunker here or there, they were always going to get a fair shot to prove themselves.
What if Edwar gets banished to the minors after today’s disaster and is never trusted again by Joe or any other manager in the bigs again? Can you honestly say that he got a fair shake?
If Edwar is so physically and mentally fragile that “sub-optimal conditions” are going to result in outings like today’s, then I’d agree — he’s not cut out to be a major-league pitcher. But just the other day you were praising Torre for his handling of the kid and the “human element of the game” by not putting him into high-pressure situations. I would argue that Joe’s usage/trust (or lack thereof) of young pitchers puts way more pressure on them than would occasionally calling on them to pitch in a one-run game.
Again, I’m not putting all the blame on Joe. But I don’t see how anyone can praise the way he handles young players (especially pitchers.)
These big score losses are somehow a bit more tolerable than losing the close ones. But they still irk, especially when Abreu, just seems to not be all there at the plate and in the field. You have to wonder what is up with this guy. I am not one to give up on a player and even though Damon is not having any kind of year I know he gives 100%. Not sure about our right fielder thought. Makes me crazy when Jeeter clutches a single and Abreu strikes out.
On the other hand what a pleasure to see Andy just keepin it going.
SJ – I always appreciate your posts – - –
Torre did see Tabata, and Hughes in person in FL and commented on them.
But do are you ok with him not seeing him even on video? I would think that the Yanks would have something for Torre to evaluate beyond a box score.
Or maybe he meant in person he hadn’t seen Joba. He sure seemed to want to see him and others in his spot on the FAN.
If I’m off base let me know
How has Wang developed under Guidry? When you say “nobody”, I tend to disagree. I’d say he has done a very good job with Wang.
The bullpen? I am afraid nobody can help there. These guys are what they are.
As far as veteran players are concerned, there isn’t much for a pitching coach to do unless he finds something wrong mechanically. They all have their own routines.
Ron Guidry can’t throw the ball over the plate for these guys. I don’t think he is telling them to throw 5 out of every 9 pitches out of the strikezone.
Place the blame where it belongs….on the players. There is only so much a coach or manager can do once the game starts.
How about Wang, asburyboss?
I think he’s done okay.
Kevin,
I sympathize with your rant. You made an interesting point:
“this organization has, in my view, shown an unwillingness to try something different when the “proven vetsâ€? are washed up.
I think a lot of that is on the fans.
Everyone is tired of older players who are breaking down like Giambi.
Yet no one accepts it when younger players are brought up and take their lumps e.g. Cano, Melky
We can’t have it both ways.
The Derek Jeter’s of the world are extraordinarily rare. That’s not how it usually goes.
The organization is trying something new – they’re trying to stockpile talented young players and are doing an excellent job of that.
Besides, Hughes, that generation of talented young players has only gotten to double A however and consists mostly of right handed pitchers. The players we’re seeing coming up now – chase wright, clippard, de salvo belong to a wave of players who are a transition phase to the more talented prospects.
Will we have the patience to watch those players come up struggle at times?
We’ve had enough trouble taking Cano.
Most young players are going to struggle on the job much more than he has.
I have been wondering about Guidry too. Isn’t the pitching coach supposed to fix the pitchers that are not doing well, just like the batting coach works with the hitters? I guess I really don’t know the press does not give him any coverage or even get his thoughts on what is happening with his pitchers.
The McDonald’s McNuggets commercial. As if this night couldn’t get any worse…
Josh:
Granted that regular work is good for all pitchers. But Torre’s number one priority is to win games, not figure out how to develop and maintain an as yet unproven talent like Edwar.
Imagine the grief Torre would get if he put Edwar in a game just to help keep Edwar sharp and the kid lost a game that was close? We’re trying to claw our way back into the playoff picture. That’s not a good time to engage in a talent development project. Edwar’s development is just not a priority at the MLB level and that’s one of many reasons you don’t rush kids, like Joba or Edwar, to the Big Club until they are really ready.
Murphy DOg… The changeup is much more popular now then it was yrs ago.. Foulke only thres 88 max again I did not see the game tonight nor am I saying ramirez is a star in the making but he throws 91 or so and he dominated in the minors.. Not just pitched well but dominated big time…
The bottom line is pitching is there big problem and they need to TRY THINGS to resolve it. WHat I mean is they need to think and act differently then they usually do with the Vet bias and try to pitch better. I am totally against trading any young guys for short term solutions so that means the answers have to be within if theat is Joba out of the pen or Ramirez getting a a couple of tries or whatever. The bottom line is for whatever reason there pen really sucks and they do not throw strikes almost ever..
Kay presently talking about VIllone and his control, what planet is he on VIllones control mught be good compared to kyle and bruney but to say it is good is a joke..
If theres any good news tonight I guess it’s that David Ortiz strained his shoulder and had to be taken out of the game.
TK,
He meant that he hadn’t seen him pitch live. I heard the interview. The guy is intriguing no doubt about that.
Especially when he has to sit through another pathetic Brian Bruney outing.
I look at Bruney and say, for 3 innings a week, Joba Chamberlain is better. But, that’s just me.
See, this is when tonight bothers me.
I’ll be honest, I have zero confidence in Mike Mussina. I figured tonight was a loss unless they scored enough early to offset what I knew would be a subpar Mussina performance.
JMO but, the biggest mistake Brian Cashman made in the off-season was not Igawa. It was re-signing Mussina to a 2 year deal.
If it was me, he gets 1 year and an option. If he says “no”, then I sign Lilly and I won’t have luxury tax issues. That’s just me though because when a guy has blown 3 multi-run post-season leads, as Moose has the last three years, AND is decreasing in velocity and sharpness, I am not giving him a 2 year deal. Just my feeling on it.
Tonight, they are going to have to use half the bullpen to finish this game. That unacceptable. Somebody has to suck it up, throw the damn ball over the plate, and finish the game.
The walks drive me NUTS. That’s worse than HR’s to me.
Its tough to watch. I can’t imagine being the manager or pitching coach in these type of games.
Well whats the point of having Edwar Ramirez sit in the bullpen every night when Torre knows he’s not going to use him? Why not bring up Henn for long relief?
Makes no sense to me..
Okay now i’ve officially given up on this game. We will come back tomorrow and kick their asses for humiliating us. Not that I expect either Igawa or DeSalvo to do well. I just think we will out slug them tomorrow.
CB –
I absolutely agree with your post above. Everyone wants to have rookies come up and play like Jeter or A-Rod or Junior Griffey.
Those guys are the creme de la creme, first ballot HOF guys. Most very good players are not even so-so when they come up. Even Cano was great his first season and a half and has now checked up. If we can’t bear this for position players, how are we going to develop Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, Horne, Ohlendorf et. al.?
My hope is that Cashman can keep his job and replenish the farm system like he has been. That is how another dynasty can be built. As long as Steinbrenner trusts Cash and Cash keeps his “long view” we will be in great shape.
On Guidry
The Yankees have veteran pitchers in the starting five who are completely fully formed – Clemens, Petitte and Mussina are as “veteran” as it gets.
Is the pitching coach going to give Mussina 5 mph back on his fastball. That’s mussin’s problem.
Wang has made important strides this year. Specifically he added a slider back to his repertoire. He specifically did that because he was struggling against boston. The slider’s been terrific and he’s working on his change.
Terry Francona said in watching Wang this year he was seeing the “evolution of a young pitcher.”
I’d say that’s quite an important accomplishments for a pitching coach.
The fifth slot – well that’s just been a mess. Are people blaming Guidry for Igawa or for 7 rookies being rushed?
The bull pen is filled with journey men who all have the same problem – great velocity no command. Command is part of talent, bruney, proctor, farnsworth don’t have.
Finally, look at Vizcaino – he was an absolute mess.
Guidry was the one who figured out his arm angle was dropping flattening his slider. Guidry was the one who fixed it.
That’s what a pitching coach is supposed to do, isn’t it?
Didn’t Wang comeup before Guidry’s time. Not sure if Guidry should get credit for Wang.
Once again, coaches and managers have to take some responsibility for the failures of the players. If every thing is players fault why are these coaches needed? Weaver is a good example. Duncan in St. Luois brought the best out of him. There are many examples like that.
Wonder if the Yanks can trade Moose. He has that pesky 10/5 clause and is due a rather large salary for next year(11mil or so). Maybe they can trade him and slot Hughes and Karstens in the rotation.
Ortiz hurt tonight.. any news?
They are trying things Stuart. The entire season has been about trying things. That’s all they have been doing.
They have tried new guys in the 8th inning role, all have failed.
Torre has juggled the order more than he EVER has in his career.
Hell, they called up Hughes earlier than they wanted. Unfortunately, he got hurt.
Now, they are giving Duncan a look.
The whole year has been one big experiment.
Geez, its late July and they are holding tryouts for spots. Its the Yankees! That’s just not how its done.
How many teams challenging for the playoffs in the AL are doing that? None. There is not set lineup here and no set roles for guys in the ‘pen, except for Mo.
That’s not because Torre doesn’t know what he’s doing. Its because these guys can’t take on additional responsibility.
That’s why Cashman is in New Britain tonight seeing if a kid in AA can help. That’s how bad it is!
They are trying EVERYTHING. But, guys have to do their share too and they are not.
I don’t mean to sound nasty here but, I could care less how long Edwar didn’t pitch. That’s an excuse and nothing more. Throw the damn ball over the plate. He knows the deal. The only reason he was called up was because of the lack of strikethrowers in the ‘pen.
If he can’t do it in a soft landing game (like this one), he ain’t doin’ it in September, when the games are more meaningful.
Better to know now than later.
ortiz was removed from the game in the seventh. any news on the injury?
SJ-
Lily would have been a good substitute for a certain Japanses lefthander. I think the reason that they went after him, aside from Dice-K envy, was they figured they could get a bargain.
Doesn’t look so economical now. I wanted Lilly too, and he wanted to be here.
It is clear now that Moose was a bad signing, although I thought it was good when I heard it. Reality is that Moose is not nearly as good as Lilly or Gil Meche.
Oh Well.
SJ44,
I fully agree with your comments on Mussina.
It is going to haunt us next year as well.
Any Alan Horne news? He left his sart after 2.2 inning tonight. I hope he’s ok.
ortiz was removed from the game in the seventh. any news on the injury?
I heard he had hurt his shoulder..
Peter agree. Isn’t stats how the Yankees found Edwar?
BBFan,
Guidry has definitely overseen Wang’s developing his slider and his change up.
Those both happened in a big way this year.
That’s part of the reason why the league hasn’t been able to adjust to wang.
Also Rivera is supposedly now throwing a sinker and that’s part of the reason why he’s been pitching better.
If true another major accomplishment for guidry.
They just said Ortiz strained his shoulder sliding into second base. He’s day to day.
Good news for the Yankees though as he has quad and now shoulder problems.
“Didn’t Wang comeup before Guidry’s time. Not sure if Guidry should get credit for Wang.”
If you can’t give any credit to Gator for Wang because he arrived sooner, then you can’t blame Gator for Moose’s bad performances or any veteran that was on this team before Gaot became the pitching coach.
It goes both ways.
Yep..here is the blub by Rob Neyer….
Fellow Travelers, we have a new catchphrase: “Statistics found him.”
It will forever be associated with Yankees reliever Edwar Ramirez, but Billy Eppler deserves the lion’s share of the credit, for both the catchphrase and for Ramirez’s being a Yankee. I hope you’ll pardon the long extract, but the Newark Star-Ledger’s Ed Price tells this story so well…
NEW YORK — If anyone deserves credit for the Yankees’ discovery of Edwar Ramirez, it’s a computer.
“Statistics found him,” Billy Eppler, the team’s director of professional scouting, said yesterday.
Ramirez has pitched twice since his July 1 promotion to the Yankees, going 1-0 with a 3.86 ERA.
It was early July last year when the Yankees needed a reliever to fill out their roster at Class A Tampa.
While Eppler looked for players who had been recently released by other organizations, Troy Caradonna — the assistant director of baseball operations in the team’s Tampa offices — checked statistics of the independent leagues.
Caradonna found Ramirez in the United League: 1.07 ERA, 46 strikeouts and 10 walks in 25 1/3 innings for Edinburg (Texas).
“We didn’t send anybody in to look,” Eppler said. “I looked at a few old reports, didn’t see anything [negative], and made a couple of phone calls checking on [mental] makeup.”
People from the Los Angeles Angels, who had released Ramirez twice, didn’t bring up any red flags. Nor did his injury history. So the Yankees signed him, paying the United League in the range of $1,500 to $3,000.
What the Yankees never found out until they got Ramirez is that he had taught himself a wicked changeup while he was out of baseball in 2004. He pitched in 19 games for Tampa, going 4-1 with a 1.17 ERA, 47 strikeouts and six walks in 30 2/3 innings.
That was last season. This season, Ramirez’s numbers in the minors were simply phenomenal. With Double-A Trenton, he struck out 33 batters in 16 innings. With Triple-A Scranton, he struck out 47 batters in 27 innings. Now he’s in the majors, and he’s struck out four batters in two innings. In his debut he struck out three straight Twins, all with that nasty changeup.
For all the talk about the Yankees’ financial advantage, it’s worth mentioning that any other team in baseball could have picked up Ramirez. If only they’d let the statistics do their work for them.
Murphydog:
If Torre’s so hessitant to use Edwar in any semi-close situation he shouldn’t have been called up. There were some opportunities to get him in games for work, even just for a batter or two. Torre could have treated him with kid gloves so that he was never in a situation to blow games. The 12-0 game before the all star break, the loss to Tampa and a couple games in the Toronto series.
I know Joe has to win games but a manager can’t let a pitcher sit for that long, be it Mo or Edwar. Even if we assume Torre is blameless on resting Edwar, then I still think we need to cut Edwar some slack and if he gets another chance see how he does.
first off Pete I never had anything bad to say to you, I understand your point but 2 weeks are you kidding me seriously ?
2 weeks, this is the exact reason Joba should not come up this season because the so called trust factor of Joe Torre, Joba got rocked tonight in Trenton so I know if he gets lit up once w/ Torre watching him expect him also to have a 2 week hiatus.
Keith Foulke in his prime is not a fair comparison for Edwar.
Foulke had impeccable command. Walked no one and could put the ball wherever he wanted in the zone. Hoffman is similar.
That’s not Edwar. He is still struggling with command of his fastball.
That’s why bringing up Edwar was a real sign of how they are trying new things.
They brought up Edwar when his pitching coaches knew he didn’t have enough command of his fastball.
Geez. Here it is, bottom of the 8th, and the “replacement level” players are actually putting runs on the board now that the Superstars are out of the lineup. Even more embarrassing than the D-Rays administer the whuppin’ in the first place…
CB,
Your points about Guidry are well articulated.
Stuart:
The bullpen this year is pretty unreliable. I agree that they really need to do something. But Edwar is as yet unproven and has a dubious ceiling at best. He has been released twice and is hanging on by a thread at the AAA level only because he recently came up with a changeup to shore up the rest of his uninspiring arsenal.
We gotta be honest about this guy. Edwar is not someone to waste a lot of time on at the major league level. That’s harsh, but realistic. It’s really unfair to Torre and the rest of the team to have to rely on a guy like this or to expect them to finish his training. There’s no time for that at the MLB level when the team is fighting for its professional life in the standings.
It would have made a nice story if this underdog succeeded, but I really think he is a career AAA pitcher. Some guys have success there and can’t make the jump to MLB. But, let him prove me wrong next year and win the Cy Young as a reliever.
Stuart he never had that change up w/ the Angels , he developed it late and it wasn’t like he was getting meaningless outs in AA, AAA he was the damn closer.
Murphydog,
If he succeeded? He wasn’t even given a chance to suceed, so it is not fair to even critique him yet.
Josh:
Like I just wrote to Stuart, the Big Club is not the place to worry about finishing this kid’s training. He’s just not ready for prime time.
By the way, Cashman makes the decisions as to who to bring up, in consultation with Torre I suppose. But it’s Cashman’s decision. For all we know, it may have been a case where Joe wanted Joba or a trade and Cash said, “No.”
First off, Muss pitching isn’t my fav day of the week either, and next yr does worry me too, but…
The thing with the Muss deal though is that Cash had no choice. He knew that Phil, JOba, Kennedy et all wouldn’t really be ready until at least the start of 08. Think George will accept a rebiulding year thoug with about 180M already commited in saleries. Me either.
Muss had a huge team option or a decent size buy out. Cash got the shortest term deal possible for a pitcher whose experience was the best chance he had at giving us a good rotation this year. The alternatives were overpay wildly for Zito/ Lilly, trust Pavano to be healthy and Igawa to be great, or go with DeSalvo/ Karstens. Not nice options.
Considering the market and the position he was in I don’t blame Cash. Esp since he would have spent millions on the buy out. All in all the deal was cheap in this market and a decent bet at a short term stop gap until the kids can take over. Also a good mentor for Clippard and Kennedy. Lets just hope he can improve a little and keep us close in his starts.
BBFan,
Agreed with the concern you and SJ have on Mussina.
His stuff is so marginal now, he just has to be perfect to get major league hitters out. Tough way to make a living in the AL East.
That said, I do think they might be able to trade him in the off season in theory. The big problem is him being a 10 and 5 guy. He’d probably balk.
That said, they should go into next year not counting on him. Chances are he’ll lose more on his fastball and be even more vulnerable.
I don’t know what you do with him. In the off season many people thought the yankees signed him for “below market” value because of the insanity that took place with the free agent pitching market. They were “lucky” to get him for a two year deal.
This is why they have to get away from older/ free agent pitching.
Brandon I know… Melky let 3 pitches right down the middle go by with out swinging I wonder how his ribs are?????
SJ I disagree somewhat I do not think they have tried that much..Yes Hughes got called up earlier then expected but really I do not think they have pushed the envelope on anyone else at all.. The only guy that patience has appeared to pay off is for Vizciano…Time and enduring poor results has not helped any other pitcher turn the corner..
Maybe they will try Karstens in the pen…
I politely disagree…
It’s really a garbage time game now. Upton can hit, but man, what was it, Proctor’s first pitch?
Well, even though the score is extreme, it’s just another loss. Come right back tomorrow, and hopefully take both games.
Josh, Mark, Peter and others with exaggerated claims about how poor Edwar has been ‘rotting’ on the bench for two or three weeks while countless opportunities to use him harmlessly in games passed by — start to watch and start to count. It’s been only 12 days and on nearly all of them it has been a struggle to come out with a win.
And. Plus. Any professional pitcher should be able to find the plate more than once out of 20 pitches.
Not to mention that rookie pitchers are always the ones to take the irregular starts because when somebody gets missed in the schedule it is going to be them. Good ones suck it up and prove their worth the hard way just like their elders did before them.
If ‘poor Edwar’ isn’t ready for life in the bigs then send him back down so he can be brought along gently until he is ready.
The point has been made before. The big club has other priorities right now than incubating Edwar.
SJ44 Just capsulized the 2007 Yankee season in less than 200 words……Would be wise for everyone re-read what he’s stated for it’s right on the numbers….This season was a transitional year with the hopes of winning on the fly, almost impossible on the Professional level in any sport, no less baseball….There has been everyday player underachievements, injuries etc. This is part of the game….I like many question Torre’s moves quite a bit this year…The one that I contend that set the tone for the season was the first game in Fenway back in April…Never the less they call it baseball, but in reality it’s pitchball…..I’ve posted this before the best pitch in baseball is not the fastball, or slider or cutter, it’s strike one….I heard that preaced by an former mgr many years ago……His name is Bobby Cox…..It’s always has bewen and it always will be about pitching……Where’s Randy One been hiding out ?????
Arguing about Ramirez is foolish. If he was that good, he would have been better tonight.
He wasn’t even good in his last outing. His job was not to come here and pitch 7th and 8th innings. It was to fill the role he had tonight. It didn’t work out.
Now, if folks want to dump the season, then they can keep Edwar, bring up some more rookies and make it open tryouts for 2008.
But, with them in sights of the East, I doubt very seriously, the 4 million paying customers, and the owner of the team, wants them to “Wait ’till next year”.
The reality is, the bullpen has stunk all year. So has Mussina. Ten walks and 14 runs are an indication of it.
Its just one game. But, I wouldn’t be surprised if we see a new bullpen on August 1. Just gotta hope they don’t play themselves out of it from now until then.
Is al Horne ok? he was pulled after 2.2 tonight.
I understand everybody’s point of views but if they aren’t going to use Ramirez, there’s no sense of keeping him up at the Bigs, the bullpen could use an arm that they can actually use, especially long relief. aka Henn.
It’s a waste to have Ramirez sit in the bullpen night after night and not use him when his roster spot could be used for somebody worthwhile
Do you not agree?
dontfirecash,
i saw that as well. someone over at pending pinstripes said that Horne just lost it in the third – threw two wild pitches and then hit the next guy. that may have been why he was pulled.
bad news. last game he gave up three home runs and now another terrible outing. looks like he stays in Trenton. Hope there’s not something physically wrong with him.
I don’t know if Horne is alright, maybe he got a late call for the double header… Abooboo strikes outs again
Josh, I agree completely with you. In the big picture Edwar isn’t make or break. I thought he was called up because he was dominating AAA and the Yanks hoped to catch lightning in a bottle, somewhat like they did with Bruney late last year. No risk, no reward.
But if he wasn’t going to be given a chance in close games then he shouldn’t have been here. He could have done better tonight for sure but the rust didn’t help.
I wonder if Ortiz hurt his shoulder walking into the batting cage at Yankee Stadium last June.
Just a thought maybe they are going to bring up Horne for tomorrows game???
Looks like I picked a good night to go to a movie, no way I’m watching tape of this. So tell me about Shelley, did he show power? Did look like a competent 1st baseman? As for Edwar, he deserves another chance.
He didn’t play the field Jeff, dh’ed. I didn’t see his ab’s so i can’t answer the other question.
I doubt Horne would pitch tommorow after pitching today. That said I would love to see Horne pitch for the Yanks this season. He’s been the best pitcher in the Eastern League this side of Clay Bucholz.
thanks jennifer, but when I checked the boxscore, he was listed as 1B, at least for the ninth.
Jeff,
He swings for the fences, puts everything he has into every swing, which translates into strikeout number 1 and 2 (both at bats with runners in scoring position)
In his third at bat he tried to pull an outside pitch and grounded out.
4th at bat got a decent hit for his first.
Doesn’t make enough contact.
Jeff I guess I was wrong, I checked out gameday apparently he moved to first and they got rid of the dh.
It is also possible Horne may be part of a trade. If he is part of trade they might have taken him out to guard against an injury.
Looks like he can only hit the fastball. He is wayy early for breaking pitches.
Cashman went into season with Igawa , Pavano and Mussina as Yankees SP . Nice job Mr. Cashman . Yankees pay you millions of dollars in salary and give you $200 Million to work with .
Jeff, Shelley is playing first now. Torre took out the DH. He hit a monster foul shot to left early and got a late garbage time single. I wasn’t terribly impressed as he looks like an all or nothing player, but certainly he deserves more of a look.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see someone like Sean Henn being called up by tomorrow’s game. Thanks to Mussina’s pathetic performance the bullpen ( or should I say the 7 batting practice pitchers plus Mariano) is spent.
Did you hear on tonight’s game that every one of the the Rays’ starters have gone 6 innings since the All Star break? Who would have everthought the Tampa Bay Devil Rays have the edge in starting pitching over the Yankees.
Henn also can’t throw the ball over the plate. Folks forget how bad he was before they sent him down. To me, he is a another career minor leaguer and nothing more.
You know what they SHOULD do but won’t? Go to 11 pitchers on August 1 and find a bat or two for the bench. But, these days, teams carry 12 pitchers, unfortunately.
I hate 12 pitchers. It shortens the bench. I would go: Wang, Pettitte, Rocket, Moose, (VERY reluctantly) and Hughes. Karstans and Ohlendorf for long relief. Vizcaino for the 8th, Myers as the lefty in the ‘pen and Mo to close.
That leaves 2 spots open. The candidates? Chamberlain, Proctor, Bruney and Farnsworth. I would do eveything I can to deal Proctor, Bruney and Farnsworth. They won’t be able to deal all three but, I would shoot for dealing two of them. Even if its just for bench parts or AAA position players who can help the team next year. The next time this team is in the World Series, its not going to be with Proctor, Bruney and Farnsworth on the team. Might as well move them now before they breakdown and you are on the hook for the surgical bills.
I go with Chamberlain and one of the guys among Bruney, Proctor and Farnsworth that isn’t traded. They would be able to easy Joba in and not overwork him this way. If, of course, they feel he can do it.
This accomplishes three goals. One, fresh arms. Two, different types of pitchers. Sinkerballer (Ohlendorf), control guy (Karstans), flamethrower (Chamberlain). It also gets some guys experience and that helps in the future.
We can all be honest and see what’s in the bullpen right now is not good enough to carry the rest of the season. Its why Edwar failing tonight is disappointing. He could have given them something to think about it.
But, you move on and find other parts. They have guys they can try within the organization. I’d do that before I pay a stupid ransom for what’s out there.
Before coming here the Rays beat up on Angels and won that series. So, do not under-estimate them. Thier offense is very good.
Joba should not see the bronx until Joe Torre is gone, i’m sorry but that’s just the truth SJ44. Torre has done a horrible job, an atrocious job handling that bullpen, I never want him being the guy we put Joba’s future with.
The disturbing thing about Tampa is that they have minor league pitching that rivals or is better than the Yanks. Davis, McGee, Niemman and others are top notch prospects. They also have Breignac and Longoria in the minors. In a few years the D-Rays are going to be really really good.
Edwar will be sent down tonight.
They need bullpen help tomorrow.
Interesting to see who they will bring up.
BB,
We may see Jim Brower. He has pitched better than Britton in Scranton and that would be my move.
They definitely need an arm for tomorrow. There is no way Igawa and DeSalvo are both going deep into games.
Bull****, Pete.
Granted Edwar wasn’t good tonight, but anyone blaming him is an absolute idiot, and that includes YOU. It’s exactly what I was afraid of, and why I criticized Torre for not using him at all for two whole weeks.
You have a guy used to pitching two or three times a week and now he comes in after not pitching in a game for two whole weeks? Sorry, but bullpen work doesn’t equal actually being ON THE MOUND in a game. It could have been Mariano, Gossage or you name the great pitcher—2 weeks without getting into a game would have affected ANY of them.
Mussina…poor job. He knew they needed a good outing and innings, what with the Iguana and DeSalvo going tomorrow.
Offense…poor job. Getting nada off a guy who came into the game 1-9, 7.14.
Torre… poor job. I mean, after Edwar gave up the grand slam to make it 9-0, bite the bullet, will you? Who cares then if you lose 9-0 or 25-0? It counts the same. One loss. Instead, he runs Myers, Bruney, Villone AND Proctor out there. WHY? I tell Myers you are going the rest of the way no matter HOW many runs you give up! You are going to take one for the team because with Igawa and DeSalvo, the team will need ALL HANDS ON DECK!
Bad job all around.
One other thing to point out. While guys like Pete, Sherman, Feinsand and others cover the Yanks, they never SEE the minor leaguers. They don’t actually SEE them in action and know NADA about how these guys are actually doing in the minors. Granted the jump is a major one, but if these guys are brought up, not used, rot on the bench and then stink, they then are quick to write them off.
Do they see them all the time or a couple times a week in the minors? NO. Some of the writers or Francesa’s never HEARD of some of these guys.
Some of us (SJ44, myself, others?) we have SEEN them. Unlike them.
THANKS, JOE! In his postgame, Torre even said what I did….the rust really hurt Edwar.
thank you Mike S. it’s ridiculous how many people want to clean up Joe Torre’s mess and knowing we have a double header he burns out the pen… JUST GENIUS !!!!!!!!!!!
I’m counting the days till he quis or is relieved from his duties
Did you see Torre’s interview?
He says they did not need 13 pitchers and that is why they did not use Edwar.
Then why did they not send Edwar to minors earlier?
Also, between the lines, he came across like complaining against Cashman when he would not be here without Cashman support.
Here’s what there is no excuse: TORRE NOT USING RAMIREZ SINCE JULY 6TH!
Stop apologizing for the worst bullpen manager ever.
Not that it means alot, but Duncan’s big swing reminds me an awful lot of another guy. Named Phelps.
One thing that worries me about Mussina, and I’m sure you noticed it too. K’s/9 IP down 2 Ks from last year. He gets 2 strikes on hitters now, and can’t put them away.
Moose seems best suited for the weak lineups and spacious ballparks of the NL West. Maybe we can unload him in the offseason if he agrees to a trade and the Yanks pay a portion of his ’08 salary.
He has built himself a junkyard of worn out relievers with deadarms ever since the days of Stanton & Nelson….Too many to mention really, which is surprising since he was a catcher…..As I stated earlier, there’s been more questions about his in game decisions and bullpen rotation this year than ever before…..Hell, the guys a Hall Of Fame Mgr & he is the Manager of the NY Yankees….Tough job man…….However I’ll never forgive him for bring in the infield in Game 7, 9th inning and Luis Gonzales up….Bad move….Then again had Mo made a good throw or Scott turned the DP there would be no issue……Yanks pull out the division..Could be a repeat of 05 when they busted their nuts to get there and were just dead for round 1…..
Cashman and Reggie Jackson were at Joba’s start tonight in Trenton, again I don’t want Joba up till Torre is gone.
This fool Clueless Joe has been absolutely atrocious this season.
Pete is such a negative Nancy who roots for our players to fail. Hughes, Shelley Duncan, Edwar Ramirez, A-Rod, and now Joba. Who is next??
Bowl I won’t say that about Pete but he does clean up alot of Joe Torre booboos…
btw my mistake Cashman and Reggie were at New Britain, but like I said until the joke that is Joe Torre is gone I don’t want Joba hitting the majors.
Hey Pete,
I don’t like to call people names, but this calls for it. Pete have you ever played Baseball as a kid or at any level? Bullpen sessions are much different then the real thing. You cannot be serious about what you said. When you’re a young pitcher and you throw at least once every three games you stay sharp. Joe Torre needs to understand that he has to and I mean HAS TO get these kids into games if he is ever going to find out what they really got. Edwar wasn’t in a game for what 10 – 14 days. I knew he was going to get hit because his arm angle and his mechanics were changing after every pitch. This performance is not Edwar Rameriz. I am not saying the kid is Trevor Hoffman or Mariano Rivera, but he has solid enough stuff to make it as a late reliever. Please Pete understand what you’re talking about before you post.
Mussina is a joke.
His performance tonight was disgraceful.
We are really hurting from losing Rasner and Karstens. We don’t have a single efficient long reliever.
Pete, why do you dignify the attacks on you by answering them? Anyone who attributes malice or schadenfreude or an invidious motive to your criticism of Yankee players or the organization obviously can’t handle the give-and-take of reasoned debate. But Peter, responding to such stupidity, even if it’s to defend yourself, affords most of your most vitriolic critic more respect than they deserve.
I wish we could have legitimate disagreements on this site without recrimination and name-calling. We all share the same goal, passion, and allegiance: to see the Yankees win.
I do feel terrible for Edwar though. He didn’t acquit himself well tonight, I concede. And of course he has to be held accountable for his performance. Still, I hope the Yankees don’t give up on him entirely. Any kid who has been cut as often as he has and still hasn’t quit suggests heart and gumption and resiliency, traits the Yankees scorn at their peril. He may not have the talent but I don’t think we can determine that definitively based on such a small sampling. I’d like to see him get another opportunity, if not this year than next.
We New Yorkers have propensity to run pitchers out of town a little too precipitately only to watch them flourish elsewhere: Contreras, Vasquez, etc.
I’d hate like hell to see Edwar flourish for some other franchise.
Myrtle beach fan:
My monthly column for our fan club:
http://www.lvyankeefanclub.com/columns/
New one coming soon.
Here is an excerpt:
it may have been Karstens’ injury woes that were the biggest blow to the Yankees this year. Karstens had a great spring training, and was about to make the team when he strained his arm. That helped force Pavano into an opening day start and secured Igawa a spot in the rotation. We know how that worked out. In his 2nd start back, Karstens received the broken leg. Had he stayed healthy, who knows? I am not saying he would have starred, but you have to think he would have been better than Igawa, and then some other youngsters we have seen would not have been rushed.
Karstens’s injury was the biggest blow the the Yankees?
OMG, I don’t need to read anymore of that ridiculous nonsense.
Ol Pete is catching too much heat tonight…Pete writes a good quality copy, maybe a bit soft and slanted torwards the team he covers but hey guys that’s the game, you don’t bite the hand that feeds you….He gets his point across rather clearly….I grew up in NYC reading the guys whose pieces were always on the edge…Gene Ward, Dick Young, even Howard Cosell always wrote with a sense on venom……Even today that mentality holds true, Madden, Lupica, Sherman…And it seems that unless you’re columns are slanted to the dark side you’re not accepted by the mass readers…..I live in Newport Beach in Orange County Ca. and the sports pages are filled with fluff, just as it is nationwide…Pete doesn’t write fluff, he’s informative and selective with his critical points of view….Let me ask this, who’s column’s do you respect and apperciate more, Mike Lupica or the great Murray Chase or Tyler Kepner ??? I recognize that his take is sometimes on the Company side, however be thankful for waht we have and waht he brings to the plate….Couple of brush backs tonight Pete….Dig back in…..
Joe’s bullpen management over the last several years has been deplorable. If he likes a pitcher he overuses him ’till he is burned out. If he is a young picher and he has a bad outing he sits for 13 days. He was probably used every 2 to 3 days in the minors and performed great. Sean Penn was doing well ealier, but after a couple of poor performances was shipped down. Young pitchers need someone to believe in them, not make every appearence a make or break stuation. I admire Joe but………
I have never had any problem w/ Pete but this statement right here got me red in the face tonight..
Do you really think all these guys came up from the minors and pitched under optimal conditions every time? Look up the game logs, they didn’t. “Clemens, Pedro, Glavine, etc. They all had things happen, starts skipped, etc.”
Pete com’on they put him on the ban list for 2 weeks, Dammit even Rivera turned into a 10.50 ERA pitcher when they didn’t use him enough this season ! I hate whe our prospects get the backhand and Torre is left w/ his I Know I should’ve don this excuses. There comes a time a manager has to think.
simply put..clueless joe must go
corrections to my post
* when not whe
* done not don
And our game pat, is to tell it like it is.
Agreed, Only save it for when the story calls for it and not just for the sake of ripping a targerted individual…..I agree Woodward & Bernstien….0r is this the ghost of Howie Cosell…..Besides it’s like the old adage, it’s not what you say ( or write ) it’s how it’s said ( or written )….Pete I honsetly see’s himself as a writer for the NY Times…His style fits the mold, and he’ll be a perfect fit…..He’s not ever going to be considered if he rips every facet of the organization that he covers…..Maybe the Post or the News they gravitate to those journalist deeds…..
Abd you’re dead solid perfect with the Karstens injury….After him losing Phil Hughes more so than Rasner i consider the second killer injury…..
Some of these comments really crack me up.
I reported Joba’s line tonight and I’m somehow rooting for him to fail. Explain to me, somebody, why I would want any of these guys to fail? Sorry, you sensitive types, I’ll try and report only the good stuff. Golly he struck out seven. Forget about the hits and the home runs. Go Joba!
I also got a kick out of of how Joe Torre “has to” pitch the kids every few days. No, Joe Torre has to win games. The Yankees played a series of close games and had the All-Star break. Please find me all the times when Ramirez should have been used. I totally agree, he should have been used more. But the All-Star break and a general lack of opportunity got in the way. It’s comical to think that Torre’s focus should be on Edwar Ramirez. They are carrying 13 pitchers. That is one more than usual. How is that hard to understand? Ron Villone didn’t pitch for 10 days. I didn’t see anybody carrying on about Ron Villone. You guys get way tooo attached to minor-league players.
Meanwhile, whether I played baseball has nothing to do with it. But, for the record, I played through high school then played in a CYO league for a while then coached Legion ball and then played in a hardball league until I was 25. Is that good enough for you? I also have covered roughly 1,000 big league games and I can’t count how many college, minor league and high school games.
Nobody cares that the Yankees lost. But heavens to betsy, Edwar Ramirez was used when he was rusty. When should he have pitched then?
For a supposedly sophisticated fan base, there are a surprising number of Yankee fans who are consumed by the 24th and 25th players on the roster.
Just a hint for you: The season probably isn’t going to be decided on how Edwar Ramiez does. Mike Mussina blew the game tonight, not him. You want to complain, complain about Mussina.
Diane: “Josh, Mark, Peter and others with exaggerated claims about how poor Edwar has been ‘rotting’ on the bench for two or three weeks while countless opportunities to use him harmlessly in games passed by—start to watch and start to count. It’s been only 12 days and on nearly all of them it has been a struggle to come out with a win.”
Diane, “Start to watch and start to count”: July 20-July 6=14 days. Too bad, so sad. Your flame went awry by your own bad math! Only thing “exaggerated,” sweetie, is your own exaggerated sense of importance.
Going through these posts has to enlighten a reader to some degree but most make you laugh at the sheer idiotic nonsense posted by the majority here, with a few exceptions by some knowledgeable and well informed posters.
I don’t know how Peter, and I give him a lot of credit here, can deal with the convoluted logic and stat watching to a fault, by people who supposedly watch and think they know everything about baseball but know little at best. They know more than managers, GM’s and teams who’ve been doing these things for many more years than most of the readers have been alive. Not everything you hear from reading newspapers, blogs, stats or analysts make any of you in the know or think you know better than they do. There are things you never hear about, yet you make judgements based on partial information, just to feel important or sound knowledgeable. Guess what, it’s not working.
Does anyone think Torre cares more about a 3 game rookie getting work in or trying to prove himself right now over winning a game ? Does anyone really think that these supposed young studs in AA and AAA ball are ever going to be even nominal major league players ?
I hate to burst anyone’s bubble but they rarely do.
There are thousands of prospects in the minors, some of whom post terrific STATS in minor league ball who don’t ever sniff the major league level or even if they do, they have minimal success when they get there and a short career to boot. Many more fail miserably than become Johan Santana or Derek Jeter. They are the rare exceptions to the rule, not it is not the norm.
The people here think these supposed STUDS are the answer when they’ve just about gotten their feet wet in A or AA ball. They may be absolutely great in the minors and post fantastic stats there but they rarely translate to the major league caliber of player. While there are a few exceptions, most of these players never come close to doing anywhere near as well at major league level.
The IMMEDIATE GRATIFICATION CREW, as I call them, who obviously know much better than seasoned pro’s who do it for a living day in and day out, will always been unhappy and will be in for a rude awakinging if they think for a second that they know more or are aware of more than these professional people. These future manager’s and GM’s expect the moon every second of every game, from every pitch to every hit, and the most from every player at any given moment of their choosing. Perish the though when it doesn’t happen exactly they way they want it to. If you know so much, why aren’t you doing it for a living ??? Already rich ??? Good for you.
This isn’t fantasy baseball.
Get real !!!
I don’t know, I just kind found it darkly comic that in one night the DH, Relief Pitcher and AA Stud Pitcher in the minors everyone has been clamoring for all spit the bit.
Kind of makes you think twice about some of the arm chair GM’ing that goes on in here.
That said, the best point of the night and I think the point Pete needs to understand frustrates us as fans is that you can’t write about how Mo loses his effectiveness/sharpness without regular work and then slam a kid who didn’t get into a game for 2 weeks.
I was hoping Edwar would come in and stop the bleeding, but he opened up the jugular tonight. If he gets banished back to Scranton, I think it’s not fair, but he’s also not the difference maker this team needs. This team needs it regular players to just show some consistency and play to their capabilities.
Watching Abreu’s futile attempt in RF tonight was just sad. I know how important he is to this lineup, but I have to be honest — if we can swap him for Dye for the rest of this season, I think I’d rather watch Jermaine play for his free agent contract here than watch the up and down nature of Abreu.
It just feels like we’re waiting for the real Yankees to show up and sadly, I think we’ve been watching them all season.
I’m still hopeful we can catch Boston — they’re as much of a mess as we are.
“The IMMEDIATE GRATIFICATION CREW, as I call them, who obviously know much better than seasoned pro’s who do it for a living day in and day out, will always been unhappy and will be in for a rude awakinging if they think for a second that they know more or are aware of more than these professional people.”
Spare us the sanctimony, Mr. Capital Letters. Just tell us how a pitcher improves when HE’S ON THE BENCH FOR TWO WEEKS.
Mussina always makes the most laughable comments after a game when he was beat up. I mean either you can get major leaguers(or barely MLers like todays game) out or you should just retire. These were his comments.
“That inning took off and we never really recovered. We played kind of flat. We were never really in the game today.”
What is this WE thing??!! Yeah they were never in the game because HE is the one that gave up 5 runs in 5 innings to a AAA team and got beat up by the 8th and 9th hitters like he always does. He always blames it on the offense when he is awful. I am soo sick of his act already. Good thing they have Hughes to replace Igawa but someone should replace him!! He has been terrible this season. I am glad Cashman signed a 38 year old to a 2 year deal and now we are stuck with him for next year.
Point of the exercise Mary, is he is not as significant as he’s being made out to be. He would only be used when games are not on the line or in any key situations in any case. Not on this team. He was not brought up to perform at that level. He’s no more than a fill in on this team right now. He was not brought up to improve himself at major league level. That’s why he’s a minor league player.
It has nothing at all to do with sanctimony, it has to do with baseball accumen, which you obviously have little of, judging by a couple of your comment’s tonight.
“It has nothing at all to do with sanctimony, it has to do with baseball accumen, which you obviously have little of, judging by a couple of your comment’s tonight.”
This is the funniest post ever. Vinny, you can’t even spell acumen right, let alone show any. Bwahaha!
LOL, Abooboo is up to his old tricks in the outfield again. I can’t wait until this guy leaves. Second thoughts on that Dye deal?! Mussina just aged again. How is he now?? I bet his approach is “A little nibble here, a little nibble there should get me a strike.” Maybe something went wrong with his schedule, or somebody interrupted his routine during his days off. Edwar Ramirez……..does he throw side sessions when doesn’t pitch?? Couldn’t find the plate, until it was too late. Oh yeah, isn’t Navarro a former Yankee prospect?? I must apologize to Myers. He’ll do anything for the team and it shows. Bruney…..please be demoted. Seriously, is Brower or Britton that much worse?? Shelley Duncan got a hit, along with two strikeouts. Hopefully, Mattingly, Long, Jeter, and A-Rod can help him to shorten his swing and plate discipline.
I think Cashman looked to Mussina as an insurnace policy and hoped that he’d be a solid # 3 who would be a plus 5 guy…..Someone who’d go for instance 15-10…..Pavano was the key and Cashman place to much faith that his winter in Arizona for conditioning was going to pay off….In fact he was to supplant Mussina in the 3 slot and the hope was that he’d come up big something like 17-12….Karstens spring moved him up to the 5 spot and when Wanger got hurt he suddenly is counted on to post a number like 13-10….So as we see in July all plans that were to be have been tossed away like discarded ace bandages……Something major I still contend will occur prior to the deadline……Then Pete will give his slant and take on the transaction,a nd he’ll proceed to alienate at least 35 % of this membership……..In closing, other than playing ball, covering the Yanks, traveling with the club through the country and getting paid for doing so in my mind is a tit job…How many would swap occupations with Ol Pete….Then of course you’d have to deal with the twits that flood this site with some real off the wall shit……Pete I live about 15 miles from Anaheim , I’ll cover your gig for you, rub elbows with the boys, ask questions and report on the evenings events…….THanks for all your efforts…..Pat M….
CaptainsCorner–Mussina is the best at that.
“Every once in a while, you get it handed to you,” said Yankees starter Mike Mussina, who allowed six runs in 4 2/3 innings. “Obviously, I didn’t pitch very well at all, and we played kind of flat.
“We were never really in it today. We’ve got a long day tomorrow and we’ve got to come out and play with a little more energy, and get our heads in the right place, and get going in the right direction again. We can’t afford to get down and lose a handful of games in a row.”
“It was an unusual start for Moose, because it looked like he had real good stuff in the first two innings,” manager Joe Torre said. “Spotting pitches, he looked like he was good. In the third inning, it looked like he wasn’t missing by a lot, but he was just getting in some bad counts.”
Torre absolved Ramirez of the blame for his ineffective performance, saying that it had more to do with his lack of regular work than any dearth of physical ability.
Ramirez struck out the side in his Major League debut on July 3 and recorded four outs on July 6 against the Angels, but hadn’t pitched since, his service relegated to the bullpen mound.
“Ramirez just hasn’t worked,” Torre said. “We had no idea what to expect when we brought him in. We knew the only time he was going to get the call would be in situations like this. … That’s just the product of that.”
New York Yankees Website
Mary, so typical from a poster such as yourself to make a typo into an excuse for your lack of baseball knowledge. You don’t have a true rebuttal so you talk out of your butt. You are one of the masses who get their rocks off by trying to annoy people with feeble attempts at provoking them on the internet, when if you had to ever face them while spewing your nonsense, you’d be as quiet as a mouse.
Wake up and grow up. Isn’t it past your bedtime ???
Whoa…,
maybe not the biggest blow, but you are going to tell me that Karstens’ injuries didn’t hurt this team? The guy had a good spring, was poised to be the 5 (and relegate Igawa to the minors, where Igawa belongs). As for Pavano, that’s a different story. Just maybe Karstens (and Rasner?) could have stabilized the 4 or 5 spots in the rotation and/or helped to stabilize the bullpen had they been put there after Clemens joined the team. Instead, the 4/5 have been a mess, and the injuries helped force the Clippards, Wrights and DeSalvos into the rotation before they were ready.
Seriously, who would you rather see out there right now, leaving Hughes out of the mix? Karstens, Igawa, DeSalvo, Wright, Clippard? Which one out of that mix?