Chamberlain and Kennedy on the rise
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The promotion of Joba Chamberlain and Ian Kennedy to Scranton is intiguing on many levels.
I can’t remember the last time a Yankees pitcher moved from Class A to Class AAA in his first full season of pro ball, never mind two of them. But when you draft players from major-conference college programs, this is what can happen.
Justin Verlander of Detroit is a prime example.
It is doubtful that the Yankees are showcasing them for a trade. In the eyes of a scout, a pitcher can be evaluated just as well in AA ball. No, this is more of a challenge for Chamberlain and Kennedy so the Yankees can determine where they stand going into next season.
Rumors perist that Chamberlain could be put in Joe Torre’s bullpen. But Brian Cashman has said he will remain a starter in the minors and this promotion would seem to confirm that.
As for Chase Wright and Tyler Clippard, this isn’t the end. But how a player handles failure can be more telling than how he handles success.
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on Tuesday, July 24th, 2007 at 2:04 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
well at AAA these guys are not just yrs down the road to the bigs..
the young arms are coming fast. with the relief pitchers who will be back next yr. like COx the pitching staff next yr. amy have many new faces…..
our rotation next year and beyond is mouth watering
Too bad to hear about Clippard. Glad to hear about Kennedy and Chamberlain though. Good for them.
they aren’t going anywhere .. this is just a move to see what they do vs more experienced bats. I’d love Joba and Kennedy to come up together but it’s difficult to picture unless Moose is gone and even then we’re talking Joba and Hughes
Well. Wow, o.k., who was expecting this?
The Yankees may need a replacement for Moose, who may be fading fast.
“Yankees Massing At The Border”:http://tinyurl.com/38rzld
ESPN led off with the above linked story:
TAMPA, Fla. (AP) -Potential moves before the July 31 non-waiver trade deadline will be a major topic Tuesday when high-ranking New York Yankees officials are scheduled to meet in Florida with owner George Steinbrenner.
Yankees general manager Brian Cashman, who attended Monday night’s Class A Tampa Yankees home game at Legends Field, will be among the officials at the session, which was set up earlier this season. Team president Randy Levine and senior vice president of baseball operations Mark Newman are also expected to take part.
****
It doesn’t sound like much, but EPSN led with this story.
Peter, what’s going on. Listening to the tone of S.I. and ESPN, you’d think the Soviets were marching into Hungary.
I like this because now it’s a possibility that Joba and Kennedy could both be in the rotation come next season but I doubt it, you don’t wanna rush them, and I don’t think they should throw Joba in our bullpen right now he needs to learn in AAA.
*Bare Babe Mauls Bonds*
Move over, Margo Adams. In happier news, Barry’s ex-paramour give a tell all interview in the Oct edition of Playboy. I know most people buy Playboy for the interviews, but for the tiny, small minority who don’t, Kimberly Bell will also do a photo shoot.
Bell said the photo shoot boosted her confidence. “If I had more self-esteem when I was younger,” she said, “I wouldn’t have been caught up with such a rotten man.”
Ouch!
Ha-aha-ha!! This is gonna be good
I think Joba and Ian could be in the rotation next year. Pettite may or may not exercise his option. Clemens will be gone but he could return:) Mussina is rotting away. Wang will be here and Hughes. It’s very possible for Joba and Ian to be in the rotation next spring. At least one will.
They will definitely need at least one starter for next year assuming clemens doesn’t start the season with them (seems unlikely)
That would likely be chamberlain.
Injury, mussina deteriorating would open another slot which may go to kennedy. Perhaps horne?
It’ll be interesting to see what kennedy does in scranton. a lot of naysayers on him because he doesn’t have a big fastball.
Nonetheless you can’t argue with the results and if Kennedy goes out and pitches will in AAA it’ll be hard to continue pressing the point that his fast ball is a big draw back.
The naysayers are obsess with velocity. Kennedy has 92-93 mph fastball at best, I think, which is all u need, if u know how to pitch which he does. I don’t worry about Kennedy at all. His stuff solid and his command is the best.
Mike ain’t going anywhere, unless it is to the bullpen. He would probably be a LOT more effective there(having to face the batting order only once is a good thing for him), but that ain’t happenin’ either because of the $13 million pricetag. I don’t think he will suppress his ego.
If anyone is curious, here is Eric Schultz take on the draft picks: http://mvn.com/milb-yankees/
Round 1: Andrew Brackman (RHP): Unsigned because of Boras and over-slot potential, but possible TJ surgery is complicating things. If Brackman does in fact need surgery, he loses a lot of leverage, but Boras probably won’t want to give the Yanks a discount. I bet he’ll sign.
Round 2: Austin Romine (C): Supposed to be a relatively easy sign, but still no news on him. Maybe he is getting an over-slot bonus, or perhaps Montero’s return is complicating things. This one should get done.
Round 3: Ryan Pope (RHP): Signed and has pitched a little for SI.
Round 4: Brad Suttle (3B): An over-slot candidate, and the Yanks supposedly have made a deal with him already, which will be made official around the deadline.
Round 5: Adam Olbrychowski (RHP): Signed and pitching for SI.
Round 6: Chase Weems (C): Supposedly agreed to an over-slot deal, pending approval from the Comissioner’s office.
Round 7: Damon Sublett (2B): Signed and starting at 2nd for the SI Yanks.
Round 8: Taylor Grote (OF): Another over-slot player who has supposedly come to terms with the Yanks.
Round 9: Austin Krum (OF): Signed and playing in Staten Island.
Round 10: Carmen Angelini (SS): Reportedly has come to terms with the Yanks, and his deal is waiting in the Commissioner’s office.
Round 11: Isiah Howes (OF): Signed and playing in SI
Round 12: Manuel Barreda (RHP): Signed and pitching well for the GCL Yankees.
Round 13: Nick Chigges (RHP): Signed and pitching in SI
Round 14: Braedyn Pruitt (3B): Signed and hitting well in SI since returning from injury.
Round 15: Dave Williams (OF): Signed and playing for SI.
Intriguing late-round talents
Round 18: Chris Carpenter (RHP): Left Cape Cod league after feeling elbow tightness. Yankees have yet to make him an offer because they are unsure about his health. It wouldn’t surprise me if he’s not signed because of his elbow problems, although he is the type of high-upside talent they covet.
Round 21: Justin Snyder (2B): Signed an above-slot deal and is raking in SI, playing 2nd, 3rd and CF.
Round 24: Greg Peavey (RHP): Peavey has been asking for sandwich-round money, and the Yankees have been following his performance in summer ball (so far he has not been dominant). Has a strong commitment to Oregon State, and it wouldn’t surprise me to see him join the 2-time defending champs.
Round 34: Drew Storen (RHP): Storen is an intriguing high school pitcher with great upside for this round, but he has a commitment to Stanford, which scared teams off. Stanford has not lost a recruit in years, and I expect Storen to continue the streak.
Round 35: Greg Holle (RHP): A tall projectable righty who can hit the low to mid 90’s with his fastball and also a talented hitter, Holle must be considered a tough sign to fall to the 35th round. He has a commitment to TCU, but I wonder if the fact that he is from New York will give the Yanks a chance to sign him.
Round 38: Erik Komatsu (OF): Drafted out of junior college, Komatsu will otherwise transfer to Big West powerhouse Cal State Fullerton. I can’t imagine he will sign, but maybe the Yanks will throw some money at him if the like his bat enough.
Round 45: Pat Venditte (RHP/LHP): The switch-pitching Venditte is not expected to sign, and has said so himself that he wants to go back to school. Nonetheless, it would be cool to have Venditte in the system.
Pete, your post is a little out of context, unless you posted about this in the Game Thread or somewhere else??
Anyway, for those of who hadn’t heard, Chamberlain and Kennedy got promoted last night, and Clippard and Chase Wright were both demoted from Scranton to Trenton.
Having Chamberlain/ Kennedy/ Horne to potentially turn to next year will change the dynamic of this off season completely.
They will thank goodness not need to make some ridiculous play for carols zambrano for one. No need to turn to a jason jennings, freddy garcia, etc.
If they did that they’d be in the same spot they were signing pavano/ wright.
In two years cashman has dramatically changed the direction of the organization.
Honestly, I do hope Pettite pitches next year because we will need that calming veteran presence in the rotation. I think it’s a need so we can complete that transition to the youngsters and not put anymore pressure than there already is or will be.
Agreed. They can’t afford to lose Pettite and have the most senior arm on the staff be Wang.
Andy is still not old and is still throwing effectively. He’s the ideal bridge to get them across to the next generation.
It looks like the outlines of the starting staff are being filled in.
I wonder what the pen might look like? Might we see horne in the pen as a set up man? Oheldorf? Trades? Any outside chance either whelan or robertson gets the call? Besides Chamberlain/ Kennedy/ Horne Dave Robertson’s had the best year of any pitcher. Does Cox or any of the TJ guys fit in?
Dave Robertson needs promotion badly. He is dominating right now. I think Cash will probably overhaul the whole bullpen. Re-sign Mo. Cash might take a flyer on Woods and give him an incentive-laden deal. Cox, Sanchez, Kozlowski, or whoever else will definitely be auditioning in the spring. Viz could be there. Mo is a lock. Chris Britton and Sean Henn could be there if they produce when given the opportunity.
I forgot about Ohlendorf and Steven Jackson.
I would imagine the TJ guys use next year to fully recover and not necessarily progress. Chamberlain will be in the rotation next year with Wang, Hughes, Mussina and Pettitte, at least at first. I would love to put Kennedy in there over Mussina because then I think with an established ace, the top phenom of the year (Hughes), another rookie ace material (chamberlain) and the veteran with 4 rings (Pettitte), along with a guy who couldn’t post worse numbers than Mussina, but has the same pitching style (Kennedy) you’re talking world series caliber rotation. I would imagine most of the bullpen past Rivera (who will be resigned), Bruney (I still have faith)and Vizcaino (will definitely be back) will either be someone like Britton, either farnsy or proctor (if one of them is not traded) and then free agents. Look at the Red Sox, their bullpen went from one of the worst to the statistical best this season thanks to free agency, if the only pieces missing are a bullpen in the offseason, the Yankees are in great shape.
One of the issues with the pen is that the young arms who are or might be relievers are either lagging the top end starting talent (eg. robertson, whelan) or are hurt (e.g. melancon).
The idea of having to rely next year again on proctor or bruney (never mind farnsworth) is not encouraging. I think the organziation needs to make a clean brake with these guys. They have been serviceable (to a point) but they are journeymen arms for a reason.
In the post season a dominant bull pen is arguably the most important weapon (the last dynasty perfected that approach obviously). If they’re still relying on proctor/ brueny I don’t see success happenning.
Yes boston has turned it around. But there model isn’t reproducible.
There are only so many hideki okajima’s and you can’t count on finding one, especially for what they’re paying him.
Okajima is the primary reason (along with papelbon’s health) their bullpen has been so good. Yes declarmen, etc. have helped. But it’s been okajima who has been the biggest difference maker.
Once again there is nothing on the free agent marker (why did scott shields just go and resign with the angels without testing the marke!).
It’ll probably have to be a trade/ an internal guy. Don’t know who’ll be ready. Britton by himself won’t be enough.
Also, Steven Jackson got demoted to Trenton.
Speaking of trades, who do ya’ll think we are going to acquire??
That’s a good question.
The trade market seems so cold and I don’t think they are going to give up any important young talent.
If they do do something I’d bet its something that happens last minute that hasn’t been rumored.
I think this is their central dilemma – what they need most is set up relievers. What they want to trade most is set up relievers.
So I’ll throw two names out there neither of which i’m all that excited about – steve kline and or matt moris from the giants.
I think the giants are going to have a definite fire sale and its going to get underway before the deadline. Brian Sabean and the yankees have a history and a good working relationship. Neither one of those guys will cost a top prospect.
Others – saloman torres from the pirates. maybe chad qualls or dan wheeler from the astros
Don’t now if any of those is feasible. Just thinking of teams that will want to sell
I do think they’ll trade farnsworth – probably to a national league team and eat most of his contract. Maybe they can pry away betemit from the dodgers. I think he would be a good fit.
Part of their bull pen issue is efficiency – for the number of roster spots taken up by the pen they get remarkably little production. They carry 8 relievers but only two are anywhere near reliable.
Given that I’d try to cut out the fat. So farnsworth is one.
I hope they trade meyers as well. At this point his primary role is mop up guy. villone can do that. I hope henn steps up. he’s so frustrating – not many lefties in the pen throw as hard as he does. hopefully he’s recovered his control.
If they can move farnsworth and meyers to a national league team then they can add back a bench player to at least have a four man bench. I’d probably keep duncan up to play against left handed pitching.
Can they trade farnsworth and meyers together? a sort of package deal to the national league. wouldn’t surprise me if both did ok. meyers is so strange in his delivery he might do ok because they’ve never seen him.
I hope what they can do is this (whether now or in the off season)
They’re running into a road jam in the minors with all of their good, but not great, right handed pitching prospects, marquez, clippard, etc.
Given the high end talent in hughes/ chamberlain/ kennedy ready or near ready for the majors and the next generation of talented arms under 20 (betances, mccallister, heredia)i don’t know where all of these arms fit.
They may start running into trouble with the 40 man roster/ rule 5 draft.
I’d like to see them trade a volume of arms for better quality of talent.
What could they get for 4 or 5 or 6 of their B level prospects?
Well, I think a big package of prospects could land you Saltalamacchia, Carl Crawford,…..those are the only names that I can think of at the moment. I don’t think that type of trade will happen until the off-season, but we can certainly pull that off. Let’s be realistic, Posada has maybe three years left and Jesus Montero isn’t close to being ready and is growing, lol. Adding Salty would help a lot. Montero could be our future first baseman.
Anyway, I think Cash will try to get Wigginton or Betemit. Farns could go to Philly for Michael Bourn(world class speed) or Rockies for something useful. I’ve heard the Devil Rays will take Farns, if the Yankees can take a chunk of the money. Proctor will probably stay. Myers might stay and that’s a big MIGHT.
I wake up to find Joba and kennedy in Scranton? When was this announced? Where can I read about it? Help me here, people. Thanks
Now for the important questions……..
….how should I pronounce Joba?
….any idea where this name came from?
Ed, you can read it here
http://blog.nj.com/ledgeryanke.....moted.html
this was posted at 11:12 PM, so it must have been announced sometime late last night.
Porkpoker, it’s pronounced like Jabba, as in Jabba the Hutt. He already has an easy nickname. Not sure where Joba came from, though I remember reading some article that mentioned what his real name is (maybe Daniel).
Eric, thanks
It’s pronounced Jah-ba, I think, and he’s Native American.
As for trades, Farnsworth for Bourn? Good joke, Phils aren’t that desperate. D Rays aren’t trading Crawford with Baldelli’s continuing health problems.
I have been saying this all along, a package of prospects (that doesn’t include Joba or Phil) plus Proctor and cash might land Teix at the midnight hour if the Rangers get desperate enough. If that isn’t in the cards we will probably just shore up the bench (Betemit, Wigginton).
Gagne wants to close, so he’s out, Lidge is off the market, Dotel left a bad taste in our mouths, maybe Qualls or Wheeler but they will cost a lot, C. Cordero – I hope not, I’d rather see us shore up the bench and give some of the kids a chance in the bullpen.
Thanks from me as well. (I was saying it like Joe…)
Bob from NJ –
I don’t know if you get the Star Ledger, but there is a note in this morning’s issue that quotes Octavio Dotel as saying he would have signed with the Yankees if they had moved faster, because he felt obligated to them.
“Dotel”:http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/11852512648970.xml&coll=1
Actually, he said, if they had talked to him “right after the season.” Wow, what a guy.
Yeah, thanks for nothing Octavio. I was excited for his return last year and thought it was a smart move by Cash to take a chance on him, but it didn’t pan out. I don’t want him back in the Bronx, bad memories.
This is the right thing to do, IMO. Both Kennedy and Chamberlain are ready for the AAA challenge.
Horne? Let’s see what happens after Hughes and Karstans are done with their rehab. He is probably next in line for a promotion. That is, if he isn’t in any proposed Tex deal.
Cashman will do what he has always done at the deadline, wait it out.
Prices drop for bigger names as the deadline approaches. If the price drops for Tex, I am sure he will be in the bidding. If it doesn’t, he walks away.
Its not like he has to be desperate to make a deal and its clear he isn’t trading Kennedy or Chamberlain.
FINALLY, the Yankees are back in a position to use their farm system to help them rather than paying over-inflated prices for free agents. Many of whom don’t have the intestinal fortitude to play in NY. Something many people overlook when evaluating players.
Take Melky for example. Statheads go crazy over what they think are his “unimpressive” numbers. However, Melky has shown he can play in N and help this team win. In my mind, that overcomes the weaknesses in his game.
Even things like last night, a big hit to spark a rally, a great catch in RF early in the game, he is always doing something to help the team win.
In a city that can eat young players alive, Melky has proven himself. The success of Melky, Wang, Cano, and to a lesser extent, Proctor, Phillips and Duncan, has to give management more confidence into solving some of their problems from within.
You can’t fix everything from within but, you sure as heck can do a lot more than they have done over the years. Perhaps they are now realizing that and, its about time.
Thanks Ben, I thought I was missing something. I thought I was still sleeping, I went back and re-read Petes post a few times. LOL
Brett Smith also got demoted to Tampa yesterday and Kevin Whelan was recalled to Trenton. Lots of movement down below. It may mean something is cooking for a deal on the ML level.
I really like this move. Time to stop pretending dime-a-dozen arms like Clippard and Wright are in the same class as Kennedy and Chamberlain.
How could they demote Brett Smith? He is,or should I say was, having a solid season at Trenton, with definite promise of better things to come..I definitely see him as a 4 or 5 man in somebody’s rotation,just not with the yanks unfortunately.Yanks could be making a mistake here.
i think it’s called the fast track .
What they needed to do was sign Dotel to a 2 yr contract.
Everyone knows the first yr after the surgery a pitcher doesn’t have it. Takes 18 months to come back fully.
Why they didn’t get a 2 yr deal I’ll never know.
The demoted Smith to work with Nardi Contereas and Gil Patterson in Tampa. Similar to what they did with Whelan last month.
Smith has been struggling of late and, when that happens, they send pitchers to the “pitching doctors” in Tampa.
I hope they bring them up and put them in the bullpen. That’s a great way for a young SP to get his feet wet. It was how the Dodgers did business and still try to do and they seem to do pretty well with young pitching. And I don’t think starting in the pen really hurt that Johan Santana guy.
Joba in the pen is better than using valued prospects for a deal for an average veteran.
They essentially switched Smith and Whelan.
Whelan had been sent down from Trenton to Tampa to work on his mechanics. Worked great.
Now they’ve sent Whelan back up and Smith down to work on his mechanics.
They’ve implemented a great support system to help young pitchers develop.
It’s not just them drafting talented arms. Between Nardi Contreras, Gil Patterson, Billy Connors, Scott Aldred and Dave Eiland they’ve built up very strong pitching development infrastructure.
Thanks SJ44, I hope they can straighten Brett Smith out.
Well this is certainly great news for Yankee fans. I think we may see both Ian and Joba come Sept 1st if they can maneuver around the 40 man roster. I would guess they would have to be on the 40 man roster to get the Sept 1st call, anyone know for sure?
Oh and in other news the Yankees won again last night, that Clemens dude got his 351th win and the offense scored 9 runs. But how bout those AAA promotions?
What was the score and inning of the suspended game in Baltimore? I think I remember that Jeter was on second with a double, right?
Add together Kennedy’s age and Chamberlain’s age – 43
Clemens age – 45
8-6
Chamberlain and Kennedy would take half the career Clemens has had right now.
I just wish the Dodgers GM stop messing around and give us Betemit already, they’re using him wrong anyway.
Who cares if guys get dropped a level? Clippard and Smith and Wright need innings and if they promote high level guys they won’t get those innings. Especially with Hughes and Karstens taking a start or two.
It is nice to see the Yankees promote them together. Espically because they’d become such good friends. I believe I read that they even room together.
I watched a video on yesnetwork.com and they said they all help each other. They show each other how to throw certain pitches. It is very exciting to see this. I really hope they hold true to their word and not trade them. Because you know it would be for an over the hill, vet.
I’d rather have Wigginton than Betemit.
What has Cashman done the past 3 years to make anyone think he’d trade any high level prospect?
why do we need either of them?
Betemit has very good power – 10 HR in 150 AB. He’s a guy who needs to play everyday, I think, like Melky. I agree – Wigginton would be a better fit on the bench, although Betemit would give us some insurance for A Rod next season (I guess Wigginton would too).
It’s mind bending to think of what the pitching rotation will be when the new Stadium opens in ‘09. Between now and then the contracts of Mussina, Giambi, and more will be off the books. The future position players are bright also. Brett Gardner, Juan Miranda, Reegie Corona, Jose Tabata, Austin Jackson, Francisco Cervelli and more will be familiar names.
Anybody know how Chris Britton is hurt? He was put on the 7 day D/L on 7/21.
Britton evidently strained an abdominal muscle. don’t know how serous. swb blog will likely have the first news/ updates on that injury
Off topic, but has there been any mention of a Bernie Williams Day?
“Well, I think a big package of prospects could land you Saltalamacchia, Carl Crawford,…..those are the only names that I can think of at the moment. I don’t think that type of trade will happen until the off-season, but we can certainly pull that off. ”
just philosphically speaking, i don’t think teams go in for the classic “3 quarters for a dollar” type trade very often.
i don’t think the braves would accept 4 B prospects for Saltalamacchia. every organization has similar B prospects already in their system. most organizations do not have a Saltamacchia in their system.
the only way the braves would move him is to get a player of similar talent at a different position that is more of a need for them. in other words, Chamberlain for Saltamacchia might be fair.
He hasn’t retired yet, so no
“Everyone knows the first yr after the surgery a pitcher doesn’t have it. Takes 18 months to come back fully.
Why they didn’t get a 2 yr deal I’ll never know.”
they tried. he refused. there were many other teams that wanted to sign him and were willing to give him a one year deal. he had all the leverage.
and he and his agent played it perfectly. took a 1 year deal from the yankees for $2M, then got $5M + $2.25M in incentives from the royals. imagine what he would have gotten if he had actually had a good year in 2006.
he wanted a 1 year deal. the yankees could not insist on 2 years b/c he had other suitors, including the red sox.
Bob, Good point. Thanks. Go Yanks.
I think they’re going to do a Texeira trade pretty soon.
Maybe Kennedy is the centerpiece to that deal since Joba isn’t going anywhere.
A young power hitting all star 1b. Not to mention Gold Glove.
Dotel had what leverage?
He was coming off Tommy John surgery with no contract!!
If they offered him a 2 yr deal for 5 mill he would have jumped thru hoops because security is what tis about. Especially since it takes so long to come back from that.
Why wouldn’t he take a 2 yr deal? Why go back on the market after a yr of trying to come back when you don’t have your best stuff? It doesn’t make any sense from a business standpoint.
I just don’t see Cash trading a chip like Kennedy for a guy he can have for free in 15 months.
Maybe a Clippard package. But not a top 5 guy.
Dotel was being pursued by several teams despite coming off of TJ. That’s where his leverage came from. That and the lack of quality relief pitching.
He didn’t want a 2 year deal exactly because he was coming off of TJ. He knew for that next year after surgery he would get below “market value” – and that’s exactly what happened. He got $2million. Far less than what he had been getting.
He signed a one year deal so he could go back out on the free agent market again a year later when he was healthier and sign a more lucrative long term contract.
He played it very well. Ultimately he had leverage because teams are so desperate for relief pitching.
I would not trade kennedy for texeira. He’s a one year rental and he’s not going to sign an extension. He’s going to go on the market.
There is a rumor that the Yankees have interest in Jon Garland and the lefty Matt Thornton…..
“Dotel had what leverage?”
“It doesn’t make any sense from a business standpoint.”
hmmmm already answered both of these questions –
“there were many other teams that wanted to sign him and were willing to give him a one year deal.”
“then got $5M + $2.25M in incentives from the royals”
You’re right about coming off surgery and he SHOULDN’T have had leverage, but apparently he did because he had other offers willing to give it to him. And it obviously did make sense, because he ended up with a lot more money this year than had he taken a two year deal last year.
Knowing it takes 18 months to come back from TJ surgery there was no sense in signing him for a 1 yr deal. They should have insisted on a 2 yr deal to cover themselves in case he couldn’t come back in yr 1. Like they did with Lieber.
And if they offered market price for 2 yrs it gets done because what is he going to do? He pitches terrible because he can’t come back and has to go on the market again.
Which is exactly what happend.
Maybe the guy pitches better in zero pressure places like KC. He gets his 30 saves and the team wins 70 games.
Dotel has regrouped and has come close to what he used to be,productive wise.We have Sanchez down below undertaking a similiar journey,albeit without the ML track record Dotel has.Should we try for Dotel and keep our fingers crossed while we await the outcome of Sanchez recovery? I think we should.
Further off track, how about a day for no. 21?
“Why wouldn’t he take a 2 yr deal? Why go back on the market after a yr of trying to come back when you don’t have your best stuff? It doesn’t make any sense from a business standpoint.”
but this is what actually happened.
think about it this way: he threw *10* innings last season to an era of *10.8* and still got $5M + incentives from the Royals.
in other words, he did absolutely nothing to hold up his end of the bargain and still got a huge payday in 2007.
that’s why he wanted the 1 year deal.
If other teams were in on Dotel why would he take a 1 yr deal?
I’m sure his AGENT said he had other offers. Doesn’t make it true.
“They should have insisted on a 2 yr deal to cover themselves in case he couldn’t come back in yr 1.”
- Sure, they should have, if they didn’t want to sign him……………..
“And if they offered market price for 2 yrs it gets done because what is he going to do? He pitches terrible because he can’t come back and has to go on the market again.”
- So you want to give 2 years and 10 million to a guy coming off TJ when you don’t know if he’ll be effective? Royals or not, he’s pitching well in the American League right now.
He had leverage and used it well, end of story. We took a shot for 2 million and it didn’t work out, was too soon, as you yourself mentioned, takes more than 1 year. So we wasted 2 million, not 10 or 15.
Cashman has said that he’s not trading Kennedy. And isn’t planning to make any “big” moves.
“but this is what actually happened.
think about it this way: he threw 10 innings last season to an era of 10.8 and still got $5M + incentives from the Royals.”
Yeah. And if he pitches for the Yankees this yr in the 2nd yr of a 2 yr deal he would have made the same amount and his earning power would have been double after this year.
Or is closing for KC more pressure and more impressive than being the 8th inn guy for the Yankees?
Now if you say Dotel wanted to just be a closer. That’s fine.
“If other teams were in on Dotel why would he take a 1 yr deal?”
You’re really missing the point, he INSISTED on only a 1 year deal for the reasons already mentioned by others – because over the 2 years he made out better this way.
Agents don’t get away with flat out lying about other teams being interested, they’d lose credibility. GM’s talk and know what’s going on and who’s interested most of the time.
WHo cares about Dotel.
I care more about the people who want us to get texeira. I don’t care about his numbers or about his fielding. I don’t care about his age. I care about Texeira’s personality and I care about his ego. Can he bring an energy to this team that we have not seen, or will he just blend in as a quiet, “goes through the motions” kind of guy? His bat is very suspect and has been on and off the past few years, putting up inconsistent numbers.
I’d rather just use Giambi until he’s forced into retirement or his contract runs out.
“Cashman has said that he’s not trading Kennedy. And isn’t planning to make any “bigâ€? moves.”
Because every GM ALWAYS tells the truth.
Especially around the deadline.
That’s funny.
to clarify, by the way, his seasons have been productive, but im referring to his enormous slumps he suddenly falls into.
I don’t really care about Dotel but it would be nice to have him in the pen as an option right now.
Or are you comfortable with the inconsistent non strike throwers out there right now?
I read an article in today’s N.Y. Post about the Yankees being interested in John Garland. Forget the Yanks giving up starting pitchers Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, Ian Kennedy, or Alan Horne for him, but how ’bout Igawa for Garland straight up? Seven reasons why the trade would make sense:
1. The Chi-Sox would clear $8M for next year (Garland’s $12M – 27 year old Igawa’s $4M for ‘08) they could use towards a new starter or hitter, or 2-3 bullpen guys. The Chi-Sox g.m. Kenny Williams is a creative, frugal g.m. who could turn that $8M cleared into something good based on what he did for 2005.
2. Igawa for 4 years/ through 2011 ($16M) would cost them only $4M > 2008 Garland ($12M). Igawa would always cost $8
‘08 Garland.
4. If Igawa wins as many games as ‘08 Garland in any year,
anything else good Igawa does is gravy for a pithy $4M > ‘08 Garland.
5. The Yanks would clear only $4M (Igawa’s $16M – Garland’s $12M) after this year, but they’d have the option to clear that $12M off the books after next year.
6. The Chi-Sox took a Yankees bust before (Contreras) & look what he did.
7. The Chi-Sox could always convert Igawa into a lefty releiver.
Otherwise Karstens for Garland, take it or leave it.
Oh b.t.w. I could just hear the “Chi-Sox would never give up Garland for Igawa much less take Igawa” cr ap well guess what? The Yanks would never give up Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, or Horne their top starting pitching prospects, and if Chicago didn’t want and/ or the Yanks wouldn’t want to give up Karstens, then there’s no deal. I can’t see anyone else in the Yanks’ farm system Chicago would want outside the 5 kids I just listed. No they’re not taking Clippard which would be ideal.
“You’re really missing the point, he INSISTED on only a 1 year deal for the reasons already mentioned by others – because over the 2 years he made out better this way.”
Just because a player “insists” doesn’t mean you have to do it, does it???
Especially a guy coming off TJ surgery. Why would the Yankees do a 1 yr deal? They get NOTHING out of a 1 yr deal!! I think you’re missing that point there.
If pther teams want him, fine. Let him go. Why pay a few mill for a guy who basically needs that whole yr to get ready for yr 2?????
One reason why Garland for Igawa doesn’t make sense and makes your 7,000 word essay meaningless and a waste of time.
Igawa Stinks.
“I’d rather just use Giambi until he’s forced into retirement or his contract runs out.”
Giambi can’t play 1B and if you haven’t noticed, can’t play at all right now…..
I’d take Tex, for the right price.
I’ll play along. Where do the Yanks put Garland?
They put who in the pen?
Hughes? So they decide its cheaper and better to get a frontline starter than an 8th inning guy?
“Yeah. And if he pitches for the Yankees this yr in the 2nd yr of a 2 yr deal he would have made the same amount and his earning power would have been double after this year. ”
last point. i think i agree that if the yankees had offered him 2 years, $8M he wouldn’t have signed. i am not debating that scenario.
but i don’t think that would have been a very smart move for the yankees, even if it would have meant having him still.
for all the hype around dotel, he has still only thrown 31 innings in the last 2 years. at most, he will wind up at 50 innings over the 2 seasons. that’s not really worth $8M or whatever, however you slice it.
and he’s been good for the royals, but he hasn’t been GREAT.
i’d love to have him, but we’re not talking about mariano rivera here.
Barnsy,
You’re an idiot. I’m going to make this very simple so that maybe you will understand. He wanted a one year deal because he was coming off surgery, so his value was low. Why lock himself into a low salary for several years? Instead, he had one year to prove he was healthy enough to pitch, which he did, and got a big payoff. He didn’t even pitch well – if he had, he would have gotten an even bigger contract.
No one was going to give him a multiyear deal for a lot of guaranteed money until he could prove his health.
Phillips is playing well but if you can get an all star almost in his prime player for a cheap package you jump at it.
Texeira is worth it. Tex needs pitching. We got pitching. Clippard, Farnsworth and a B level player. They get 2 cheap starters they can control for years and a reliever they coveted 2 yrs ago.
“i think i agree that if the yankees had offered him 2 years, $8M he wouldn’t have signed.”
he *would* have signed. ugh.
Great posts all around. Yanks are making some surprising moves, and I agree with CB that there’s an impending logjam of pitching, so trades will happen. The rotational future looks bright, but needs exist at Catcher, possibly third base, utility infield and an outfield position, just not sure which one. Maybe right field.
In my mind, only Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy are secure, and everyone else is trade bait for the right pieces in return.
As far as this year is concerned, I’d rather just get by without trading any AAA minor league prospect.
Thanks Bob from NJ for resorting to name calling. I knew a discussion was above some of you.
I’ll make this real simple for slow ones like Bobby.
Just because a player wants a 1 yr deal doesn’t mean you have to give it to him. Right?
If he’s not going to take a 2 yr deal there was no reason to sign him to a 1 yr deal. Since guys coming off TJ surgery take 15 months to come back.
It was a waste of a few million since you don’t control him for the next yr.
And it also cost the team since he obviously had to rush back to show the league he was healthy. So he could go for that next contract.
What is so hard to get about that? Is it beyond your comprehension? Should I slow down for you?
“Texeira is worth it. Tex needs pitching. We got pitching. Clippard, Farnsworth and a B level player. They get 2 cheap starters they can control for years and a reliever they coveted 2 yrs ago.”
i don’t think this comes close to getting it done.
if the yanks want teixeira, they are going to have to give up something that hurts a little.
you would do clippard and farnsworth without batting an eye, that should tell you it’s not enough.
barnsy is right. There is no reason to sign a player coming off major surgery if you don’t control his rehab and get a 2nd year out of him. Example: Lieber.
The Dotel signing was a complete waste of money and a waste of time last year. They needed that extra year so he could have really taken his time back and not rushed it.
From what I read on it Texas is coming way down on their price and basically want to ship him out. 2 solid low cost pitching prospects like Clippard and Horne or Wright or Smith get it done.
Here’s the thing.
Not one person here knows what gets a deal done. Not one person here knows what free agents like Dotel were offered. Not one person here knows what teams get in on players.
Texas’ ownership could just want to ship him out and will take the best pitching laden they can. I seem to remember Philly saying Abreu wasn’t available all last July. Or they wanted Hughes. Then it took 4 C level prospects to get done. Who was lying? Who was fibbing?
Have a little faith in Cashman, please.
LOL, ya’ll already calling each other names.
Anyway, I wouldn’t trade for Jon Garland or Matt Thornton because he isn’t an upgrade over anyone. Is he really better than Karstens?? I don’t think so. There is no room in the rotation. Hughes is coming back. Matt Thornton would be good, if he found his control and we can’t take if’s at the moment.
I think the Yankees will trade for Betemit or Ty Wigginton and a bullpen arm like Greinke, Dan Wheeler, David Weathers, etc…..
Barnsy,
“Just because a player wants a 1 yr deal doesn’t mean you have to give it to him. Right?”
Some other team would have given him a 1 year deal, and he would have taken it.
“If he’s not going to take a 2 yr deal there was no reason to sign him to a 1 yr deal. Since guys coming off TJ surgery take 15 months to come back.”
Wrong. It was a risk, with a potentially high pay out, so Cash took the chance. Some guys can be effective within the timeframe, some cannot. Turns out Dotel wasn’t able to be effective, no one could have known this beforehand.
“It was a waste of a few million since you don’t control him for the next yr.”
A few million is meaningless. The question is, what is the opportunity cost? Did signing Dotel prevent us from signing someone else that would have added more value? The answer is no – if we hadn’t signed Dotel, Big Stein would have pocketed the 2 mil, why should Cash or anyone else care about that?
“And it also cost the team since he obviously had to rush back to show the league he was healthy. So he could go for that next contract.”
Wrong again. It is the Yankees who decide whether or not Dotel is healthy and effective, not Dotel. Once it became apparent he was not healthy, he wasn’t put in the game during high leverage situations.
The fact is, your vision is obscured by hindsight bias. It didn’t work out, but that was always a possibility. There was solid upside with basically no downside – so why not take the risk? It’s very simple.
Garry,
There is an imbalance in the organization between right handed pitching (unfortunately very, very few left handers) an position players (especially one that hit for power).
The main reason for this is that the team felt the pitching situation was more important and have really focused on it in the draft.
I think last year they used 14 of their first 16 picks on pitchers!
This year they took more position players in the draft. Also, they seem to be focusing on developing position players through the international signing market and have done a nice job of getting very athletic young players – still raw, most under 19.
So there are prospects in a number of areas you identified – they are just further down the line.
I’m confident that the system will be very deep in position players as well in a short period of time.
The whole reason you sign players coming off injuries and surgery is to take the risk they come back. And the price of that risk is an extra year on the deals. You give them security moneywise. They give you the extra years. You’re basically paying for them to rehab so you control them when they are healthy.
That’s why the Dotel 1 yr thing was such a head scratcher. They knew he wans’t going to contribute last year.
“If he’s not going to take a 2 yr deal there was no reason to sign him to a 1 yr deal. Since guys coming off TJ surgery take 15 months to come back.”
the yankees gambled. they lost.
they were hoping he could come back sometime for the second half of the season and help them. it didn’t work, but it was still a shrewd gamble.
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....p;c_id=nyy
“General manager Brian Cashman actually tried to sign Dotel to a multi-year deal, much the same as he did with Jon Lieber after he underwent the same elbow surgery.
“Right now, he’s an investment for now,” Cashman said. “He was only looking for a one-year deal and that’s what he got. Hopefully it will benefit us both, and when all is said and done, we’ll talk about [a new contract] at a later date.”"
Thanks Bobby for just cutting and pasting what I wrote.
How about your own thoughts?
Or is that too tough for you?
Obviously you believe they were right in giving Dotel a one yr deal. Obviously you’re wrong.
Obviously you believe injured players should take one yr deals and not try to get healthy and rehab and take that extra year of security.
I think you’re out of your mind but we’ll agree to disagree.
“From what I read on it Texas is coming way down on their price and basically want to ship him out. 2 solid low cost pitching prospects like Clippard and Horne or Wright or Smith get it done.”
ahh, but Horne is not really a throw in type player. he is a highly valued prospect whose stock is quickly rising within the yankee organization.
i don’t think you can lump him in with Wright or Smith.
i think you have to put him ABOVE clippard at this point.
Wright is garbage, Horne is not. apples and oranges.
Tony,
Excellent point. Cashman really does an excellent job and in particular since consolidating more power (particularly over the draft) has done a fantastic job turning the organization in a new direction.
He’s made very few bad trades and rarely loses significant talent (maybe the jeff weaver trade/ velazquez trade were his down points).
He takes risk with money and has made bad signings. But as the GM of the yankees it makes sense to take risks with money rather than talent.
Oh yeah, I wouldn’t trade for Teixeira because he’s a “yes” man. Meaning Scott Boras is running the show and he will hit the open market after next season. He will sign with Orioles. That’s almost a guarantee. Oh yeah, he may put up the numbers and is GG caliber, but he is VERY streaky and that’s scary.
My point mr hmmmmm is that just because a player wants a 1 yr deal doesn’t mean a team has to do it. Why would the Yankees do it?
They basically wasted a few mill that could have been invested in other players. How about a bench player??? A backup catcher?? the latin FA market??
Or was flushing 3 mill down smart business??
No pitcher in history has ever come back from TJ surgery early!!!
They knew this. That is why you don’t do it without the 2nd yr and if he doesn’t like it have fun somewhere else.
A GM is supposed to know all this.
“That’s why the Dotel 1 yr thing was such a head scratcher. They knew he wans’t going to contribute last year.”
it’s not a head scratcher if you look at what he could get in the open market.
he had several 1 year offers. in fact, Boston offered him a 1 year deal for slightly more money.
so these were cashman’s options:
1. give him a 1 year deal and hope he contributes in 2006
2. give him a 2 year deal he can’t refuse, i.e. 2 years, $8-10M
3. let him sign elsewhere
choosing 1 was perfectly reasonable.
Who cares if Texeira is a Boras client or a yes man?
He’s an all star 1b in his prime. He’s going to get his dough no matter what happens. If it doesn’t cost too much it doesn’t make much sense in not doing it.
How about my own thoughts? What? I refuted all of your points, one by one. Your response is “Obviously you’re wrong.”
Actually, I’ve shown how you were wrong, and instead of trying to refute what I said, you’ve posted nonsense.
“Obviously you believe injured players should take one yr deals and not try to get healthy and rehab and take that extra year of security.”
I don’t believe they ’should’ or ’shouldn’t’ do anything, I just look at what players in this situation typically are looking for. Look at Gagne, he wanted a one year deal. Dotel as well, wanted a one year deal.
I’m not “agreeing to disagree” I am arguing with logic and reason and facts, something that is beyond you. hmmm proved Dotel wanted a one year deal, yet you continue to insist the opposite.
The fact is the Dotel deal cost the Yankees nothing. It gave them no value, but it could have given them value, so it was worth a shot.
i think and phillips is doing a great job at firstbase . i dont see any reason to trade away prospects ( and they would have to be goods ones ) to get tiexiera .
So hmmm let me ask you one thing
Basically you believe that because other teams are thinking about doing it, it makes it ok?
Because Boston was going to make a bad decision it was okay for us to do it?
It was ok for us to not realize it takes 15 months to rehab from major surgery and waste a few mill on a guy who couldn’t pitch?
That’s what your saying. He had offers so it made it alright?
Bobby,
How can you say you use logic and reason when you resort to name calling before you even say anything?
Kinda defeats the purpose of “logic”, bud.
We’ll agree to disagree. You believe the Dotel signing was good. I think it was dumb not to get another year on the deal.
Is that it? That pretty much sums it up, right?
Wow. Just, wow. It’s called opportunity cost. Look it up.
Phillips has been great but if you have a chance to add a Texeria to your team for this year and next and probably 7 years in the future, you run with it.
You don’t even think about it especially since you won’t have to trade any top level arm.
“Texas’ ownership could just want to ship him out and will take the best pitching laden they can. I seem to remember Philly saying Abreu wasn’t available all last July. Or they wanted Hughes. Then it took 4 C level prospects to get done. Who was lying? Who was fibbing?”
the difference is that Abreu had a NTC and refused to anywhere except the yankees, mets, angels, or red sox.
when it came down to it, it was the yankees or no one. cashman had all the leverage.
texas can either trade him to any team they want or they can hold onto him and trade him in the offseason or at the deadline next year. they control him for another season and a half.
they have some leverage.
What don’t you understand about this: Cash wanted to give him a multi-year deal, and he refused.
It cost the Yankees nothing to sign him…as I have explained…it kept him away from Boston…and it gave us a chance at a potentially solid 8th inning guy…the worst case scenario happened…and we still weren’t hurt by it. It had no downside and strong upside, of course you take that deal.
And why don’t you cry because I called you an idiot? You have proven me right, you are an idiot. You can’t understand simple concepts and continue to insist blindly hmmm and myself have shown you not only why you are wrong but exactly how you are wrong.
If you believe a pitcher coming off major surgery that needs 15 months to rehab “opportunity cost” than I weep for your family finances.
What was the OC? He makes a miraculous recovery and becomes the 1st pitcher in history to recover from TJ surgery?????
Is that what your OC was here?
That’s funny. Just because other teams offer a player something doesn’t mean you have to. But good business sense seems beyond you, Bobby.
“It was ok for us to not realize it takes 15 months to rehab from major surgery and waste a few mill on a guy who couldn’t pitch?
That’s what your saying. He had offers so it made it alright?”
no, i said it was a gamble.
he had the surgery in May of 2005. 15 months is august of 2006.
if he comes back and pitches well through august, september, and october, wasn’t that a good gamble?
high risk, high reward. it’s exactly the type of chances a team with deep pockets should be taking.
Freddy,
Texas GM was mugged by the Brewers and White Sox. He’s not taking anything but top-tier players or B++ players. He wants to come out as a definite winner. There is a strong possibility of Teixeira leaving the very next winter.
“What was the OC? He makes a miraculous recovery and becomes the 1st pitcher in history to recover from TJ surgery????? ”
i don’t think this statement is backed by fact.
Again Bobby.
Just because Boston wants a player doesn’t mean Cash has to waste money and a roster spot to keep him from them.
What don’t you get about that?
Should they have gone after Drew and Lugo this year because the Sox wanted them? or JC Romero and Pineiro?
You do not operate a club like that.
If Dotel wouldnt take a 2 yr deal it should not have even been an issue of see you later.
Its like explaining something to Forrest Gump here.
hmmmm
Name me a pitcher that has successfully rebound from TJ surgery to come back and pitch in less than a year.
Not just pitch but come back to what he was. Velocity. Location.
There isn’t one.
uuummm, barnsy, i don’t think you quite get exactly what opportunity cost actually is. you might want to look that one up first. you’re trying to make the point that bob nj doesn’t get it, i understand that, but in this instance, bob nj is correct, and you’re not even close. sorry bud
It was a bad idea, should have let Dotel walk and go elsewhere. He recieved “free money” and he knew he would by just agreeing to a 1 year deal. He knew he couldn’t make a contribution last season.
“If you believe a pitcher coming off major surgery that needs 15 months to rehab “opportunity costâ€? than I weep for your family finances.”
That sentence made no sense.
“What was the OC? He makes a miraculous recovery and becomes the 1st pitcher in history to recover from TJ surgery????? ”
Once again, what? Tommy John’s Surgery is successful more than 70% of the time, some pitchers even gain velocity after the surgery. Also, you clearly don’t know what opportunity cost means.
The opportunity cost was nothing – we forewent absolutely nothing to sign Dotel.
“Is that what your OC was here?”
The opportunity cost was nothing, like I have said 8 times.
“That’s funny. Just because other teams offer a player something doesn’t mean you have to. But good business sense seems beyond you, Bobby.”
Wow. There was no downside and high upside. This is very simple.
You’re arguing about really nothing here.
Yes, the Yankees should have got more than a 1yr deal because of the surgery and rehab associated with arm injuries.
Yes, it was a good gamble since he is a quality arm and whats a few million to the Yankees.
But a team like the Yankees shouldn’t let other teams effect how they go about business.
“They basically wasted a few mill that could have been invested in other players. How about a bench player??? A backup catcher?? the latin FA market??”
this argument is completely negated by the fact that they added Abreu and Lidle at the trade deadline.
also, they signed many latin FA players, including the top player on the market, Jesus Montero.
Dotel did not bump their payroll all the way to the ceiling.
What was the upside?
He would take the whole year to get his velocity back and his location and be ready in yr 2?
Yes, thats a terrific plan!!
Too bad they didn’t heed it and jumped into a deal because other teams offered 1 yr.
also, you’re sorta missing his whole point. we didn’t lose anything by signing him for a year. would it have been better if we could have gotten him for 2? yes. no doubt. that wasn’t the yanks call. it was dotels. there wasn’t a negative impact on the team, only not a positive. a signing that would have a large opportunity cost would be sheff’s. by signing sheff, we were unable to sign vlad. dotel signing for 1 year had no impact on any additional signings, or really on the team as a whole. the team took a flyer and missed. no harm, no foul.
“this argument is completely negated by the fact that they added Abreu and Lidle at the trade deadline.”
Really? They couldn’t have used that 3 mill last November???
Thats negated??? Wow. Some people really go to the mat on a dead point.
So basically guys like hmmm believe that it ok to throw money away on players because hey they got it.
I bet you are a big fan of the Pavano signing because it was a good risk right?
Whats 10 mill right?
That can be used on 10 latin ballplayers but who’s counting!
“Name me a pitcher that has successfully rebound from TJ surgery to come back and pitch in less than a year.
Not just pitch but come back to what he was. Velocity. Location.”
but i never said “less than a year”.
i said August 2006. which from May 2005 is 15 months.
that’s what the yankees were gambling on. 14-15 months.
The upside was that he returned as an effective pitcher for August, September, and October. There was a good chance of this happening, based on how long the average pitcher takes to return from TJ surgery. Obviously this is an average, so some take longer and some take less time – Dotel took longer, so it didn’t work out.
The point is, we gave up NOTHING for this chance. The worst case scenario happened – he wasn’t effective. We lost NOTHING. But at the time, it was a risk worth taking.
“I bet you are a big fan of the Pavano signing because it was a good risk right?”
yes, b/c $40M is the same as $2M.
that is called a strawman.
They should never have signed if he wouldn’t go to yr 2. Why even sign him if he’s not going for the extra yr? The risk was bad since hes coming off arm troubles.
They could have used that 3 mill to and prob the 8 they offered for 2 on someone else. Since they are still looking for a catcher, bench, relievers, etc.
hmmmm,
Was the Igawa signing a good risk too since he lead his league in K’s?
Hey, whats a few mill to the Yanks, right???
Give me a break.
Sooo…How ’bout them Yankees?
If all Teixiera costed was Clippard and Horne and another B level prospect the yankees would be foolish to not make that trade. Both are back of the rotation starters at best, and we have plenty of those in our system.
Even if Tex is a rent-a-player its worth those two for a shot at the world series. However that aside, I’m not a huge teixiera fan because as someone else already said hes VERY streaky. I think people in NY would be disappointed with him, especially if he sticks around and gets that 16 million dollar a year contract.
Personally, I like Tex because he’s a great firstbaseman, but I kind of like the yankees staying away from big salary players, since ist almost a no win situation for them unless we win the World Series.
But for my original argument, if you can get him for Horne, CLipp and a guy like Colin Curtis, you definitely have to do it. Kennedy is a maybe, but Joba, Hughes, Tabata and Jackson are off limits.
2 million dollars did not restrict the Yankees from making any other moves, end of story. The cost was NOTHING.
In order to make your argument, that by signing Dotel we forewent other options, it means that after Dotel, our payroll was as high as it could go. This is refuted by the fact that Cash took on Abreu’s entire salary at the deadline, and Lidle’s, so obviously the payroll had not hit the ceiling.
Therefore, if Cash hadn’t used that money on Dotel, it would have just went in Steinbrenner’s pocket. The opportunity cost was nothing, the benefits was the chance to get a good pitcher. It makes perfect sense.
Wow.
“Was the Igawa signing a good risk too since he lead his league in K’s?
Hey, whats a few mill to the Yanks, right???”
again, you are comparing $46M to $2M.
it’s a completely dishonest argument.
here is where the disagreement is:
you feel there was a 0% chance that Dotel would contribute in 2006. you know this b/c you have the clarity of hindsight.
the yankees felt there was a 50% chance he could come back and contribute.
the yankees felt that that 50% chance of having another solid reliever was worth $2M to them.
they took it. it didn’t work out.
it has absolutely NOTHING to do whatsoever with Pavano or Igawa. nothing.
That 3 mill used on Dotel could have been used in 100 different ways.
Read Moneyball. You don’t waste resources even if you got them.
I don’t mind taking risks on injured pitchers but you have to protect yourself too. You are giving them money when they don’t deserve it. Remember, they’re hurt. That’s why you get the extra years.
Now if they got other offers you let them take the other offers. You don’t deviate from your plans because of other teams needs and wants.
Barnsy,
The opportunity cost of signing Igawa was signing Ted Lilly. So no, this is nothing like the Dotel signing.
Not really hmmm. I’m just comparing your opportunity cost and risk benefit.
Now 15 teams wanted Igawa. I guess it was good OC and risk to give him what he wanted and to keep him out of Boston and Shea right?
Because thats basically your point on Dotel.
Lanny, I’ve read Moneyball, and it has no relevance here.
They didn’t “waste” money. The opportunity cost was nothing and the upside was material. WOW. It’s that simple. Learn to read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost
“In economics, opportunity cost, or economic cost, is the cost of something in terms of an opportunity forgone (and the benefits which could be received from that opportunity), or the most valuable forgone alternative (or highest-valued option forgone), i.e. the second best alternative.”
Barnsy, please read that link before posting again, you’re embarrassing yourself. Thanks.
I’m leery of Texeira. Trading for him would be going right back into the mind set of needing an all star at every position.
It’s that same paradox – he’s clearly more talented than what they have but somehow I get the sense that it won’t work out.
I’m concerned a bad cycle will get set up. Tex comes to NY wants to live up to expectations, presses, goes cold, fans get on him, he presses more, etc. and it all goes down hill.
It’s the streakiness that bothers me.
For one year it really depends on who you have to give up.
I’m not sure I’d be willing to give up Horne. I like Horne a lot but I don’t consider him untouchable.
I look at it this way – if we consider hughes, chamberlain and kennedy untouchable (and i do think cashman puts kennedy in that group or very close) Horne is by far the most valuable trade commodity they have.
Do you use that trade commodity on Texeira given how much money you’ll have to pay Texeira?
I’d rather they use Horne (if they are going to trade him) on a a Carl Crawford type – someone who is very athletic and still not making big money.
Ya’ll should drop the Dotel signing or non-signing. LOL, ya’ll are in the trenches sluggin’ it out and no one is gaining the advantage.
“That 3 mill used on Dotel could have been used in 100 different ways.
Read Moneyball. You don’t waste resources even if you got them.”
this really only applies if the yankees were using their LAST $3M on Dotel (it was $2M BTW). which, of course, they weren’t.
when it came time to sign international players or pay over-slot for draft picks, it did not hinder them at all.
look, i agree it is not smart to “waste” money. but the yankees didn’t KNOW they were wasting money. if they did, they wouldn’t have signed him.
try to evaluate this without hindsight. the yankees signed Dotel what, 6 months after his TJ surgery? they had SOME information about how he was progressing. the doctors said his repaired elbow was very strong.
it was a calculated risk that happened to not work out.
“I look at it this way – if we consider hughes, chamberlain and kennedy untouchable (and i do think cashman puts kennedy in that group or very close) Horne is by far the most valuable trade commodity they have.”
i think Cashman DOES include Horne in that group. or at least he has said as much.
barnsy is a prime example of why this blog is a lot more interesting and intelligent when school is in session………
You keep arguing 15 months, 15 months…. as hmmmm said, 15 months put him back and effective at the end of last season, when he still pitched for the Yankees and it obviously took him MORE than 15 months, so the risk in this case didn’t pay off.
Beyond that, no-one on here said the Yankees should do anything based on what other teams are doing. What was said is that because other teams wanted Dotel, he had leverage. Our choice was give him the 1 year deal or let him go to someone else. It was a CHOICE and the decision that it was worth the risk to give a whopping 1% of our payroll to a guy who MIGHT have come back in 15 months to give us some effective relief appearances in the end of the season when guys like Proctor could have used some rest.
Why is everyone so easy to include Kennedy if we have to
but not Chamberlin? Ian has practically the same stats
as Joba and who knows,he might turn out better.I just dont
get it. Is it because he has a better fastball? Last I
looked that guy named Maddox hasnt done that bad without
that exploding fastball.
They are talking about Garland as a possible trade. Would
he replace Mussina or clogg up Hughes from comming back
at the 5th spot?
We could trade for Ryan Franklin. He is a quality bullpen arm.
I would trade for Crawford for a packaged centered around Horne. Crawford is cheap and his numbers would probably go up playing at Yankee Stadium.
I have a feeling that Cash will probably make trade that hasn’t been rumored. Just a gut feeling.
Arguing over Dotel is foolish. Two million is chump change to the Yankees and it didn’t change the way they do business.
It would have been nuts to re-sign him off how he pitched last year. The fact that he is pitching better is a credit to him. But, arguing over him is 20-20 hindsight at its finest.
Tex? I am 50-50 on this one. I like it in the sense that they won’t waste money for position players on the FA market this off-season. It also means they will probably keep Melky as their everyday CF, an idea I am warming to.
An infield of Tex-Cano-Jeter and Arod would be the best in baseball. If they can extend Tex and re-sign Arod, it will be the best in baseball for years to come.
You have Matsui-Melky-Abreu in the OF. That’s a pretty formidable group. Defensively, that’s as a good a team the Yankees have fielded since the Dynasty Years.
If you are reloading with pitching as the cornerstone, as its clear Cashman is trying to do, you gotta catch the ball. That makes defense a priority.
A SH with power in the middle of the lineup also can’t hurt.
The cost? That’s when it gets interesting.
Hmmm is right. Texas isn’t giving him away. If its Horne, Proctor and a “B” level minor league prospect or two, that may hurt enough for the Yankees to pull the trigger.
Horne is real good. If they didn’t have Hughes, Kennedy and Chamberlain in front of him, Horne would be getting all the pub as the Yankees top pitching prospects. Lots of teams like Horne. He is probably a hot commodity on the trade market.
Ideally, you would love to sign Tex to an extension. However, if the deal I proposed above is on the table, it may be too tough for the Yankees to turn down.
Its a tough call. However, 27 year old SH with power and a Gold Glove, who idolizes Don Mattingly (which could play a big role into him wanting to stay in NY) may be too tough to turn down if the price doesn’t include Tabata, Chamberlain or Kennedy.
Should be an interesting week leading to the deadline.
There is no room for Crawford,unless you trade one of our
outfielders. I doubt Abreu would waive his no trade clause.
Hard to find takers on Damon(with his salary). Matsui is
not going anywhere with how much money he makes us from
Japanese fans. Lastly Melky is the only possibility,but
he is also our sparkplug. I dont think I would trade him.
The only problem with Crawford is, the DRays hate trading within the division.
Imagine if they trade Crawford (whom I love as a player) to the Yankees and have to face him 19 times a year? That would probably be too tough to swallow.
Trade a utility guy like Wiggington to the Yankees? That’s a different deal. Trade an all star to a team in the division, especially the Yankees? Man, that could be a tough one to swallow if you are the Drays and their fan base.
If Carl Crawford continues playing at his current rate, he could very well be a Hall of Famer. There is no way Tampa trades him, mainly because as you said above, he is cheap. But also because he’s one of the top players in the game. If the guy was a free agent right now I bet his asking price would be around $13-$15 million a year.
In my opinion, if TB was going to trade Crawford, and this is hypothetical, I’m sure the asking price would be Hughes or Chamberlin plus Tabata and probably another B level prospect. Horne would be the throw in, not the centerpiece.
What about trading Mussina to Philly,eat half his salary
and get Garland to replace him. Isnt he from philly?
Philly lost Leiber for the year and are in the playoff race.
Yeah, Crawford is young, exciting, under their control until 2011 I believe, and is not going anywhere. They might have traded him in the offseason, when they had 1 too many outfielders (Upton had nowhere to play) but with Baldelli injured again there is no way they trade Crawford and depend on Baldelli, he’s almost as brittle as Pavano.
Plus, like people have said, it will take a monster package of prospects to land him, and they wouldn’t want to move him to the Yankees anyway.
That Moose trade to Phillie sounds nice. Who would u want in return? The only piece they have is Michael Bourn. They don’t have anything in the minors that they would want to give up. Bourn is available, BTW. Would Moose waive his NTC?? He is stubborned and has an ego the size of Jupiter.
Will Giambi play when he returns?? Douggie hasn’t even started swinging the bat. So he might not even return. Will Giambi be bench player? Would he like that demotion?? Does he have a choice?? Will Torre play him at the DH and Damon in CF?? He does like his veterans. We all know that. Or will Torre go against the norm and keep Melky in center, Damon at DH, and Giambi on the bench?? That would be a first.
I brought up Crawford as an example (the most ready that came to mind as I really like his game).
With Texeira the cost will be significant – both in terms of talent and money (potentially). I don’t like the idea of him being a one year rental and I don’t see boras not taking him to the market at age 28. Next year will be his walk year and a mini-repeat of the ARod opt-out saga will ensue with him as well.
The yankees have great depth in arms and are relatively thiner in terms of young position players with power.
If they are going to trade a guy like Horne I hope they can strike a deal with a team that is desperate for pitching and are relatively stronger with position players (e.g. Arizona). I know Tampa doesn’t like doing business in the division but they really need pitching, even with the arms they have in the minors.
Again, if they are willing to trade some of their better arms/ near elite arms I’d rather they get a younger player under control who is athletic. That’s what they lack even more than the a player with Texeira’s skills.
There are only so many Horne’s you can trade. You have to make it count when you do.
What about BJ Upton? I believe he can play the infield not including 1st or C.
I wouldnt think Philly would give much. It would just free
up money and a chance to put someone else that can give us
a better chance to win.
I think it will be a rotating dh spot. A spot to rest guys.
I could see competition to play bringing out the best in
everyone. Look at how Damon has been playing since Duncan
arrived.
B.J. is a stud. I dont think he will be available until
his contract comes up. They will build around him as they
did these years with Crawford.
The player that they would want to get rid of is Baldelli.
Hes great when healthy but thats not often.
Teix is 44th in MLB in VORP this year, ahead of Crawford, who is 75th, and is behind Pedroia, Brendan Harris, Luis Gonzalez, etc. Both Crawford and Teix are having off years.
The point is, “athleticism” means nothing. Crawford might be more exciting to watch, but he’s not a more valuable baseball player. They both play ‘easy’ positions, but the difference is Teixeira is a tremendous fielder, while Crawford is not.
The fact that Crawford is cheap makes him more valuable to the D Rays than to the Yankees, relatively, so it makes no sense for us to target him. It makes more sense to target expensive players, because they are less valuable to other teams than they are to us, because for us, each dollar is worth less. Therefore, the opportunity cost, or true cost, to signing an expensive free agent is less for the Yanks than for the D Rays.
It sounds simple, but, it is why we should be targeting someone like Teix and why we should target someone like M. Cabrera in a few years. Prospects are worth more to the Marlins or D Rays or Rangers than they are to us – and their expensive free agents are worth more to us.
Also, if Teix leaves, we would get draft picks, another added bonus.
Do ya’ll have any predictions for the trade deadline??
Holy SH*T.
just LET IT GO for crying out loud.
Dotel is on the Royals. He’s not that great. Who cares.
My prediction is we get Teix at the midnight hour, like we got Abreu.
A package of Horne or Kennedy, plus Clippard or Wright, plus Proctor, plus a player to be named and assume all of Teix’s contract would be worth it and might be accepted by the Rangers at the last minute if they get desperate enough.
I think we get Tex too. The Rangers need young pitching.
Something we got plenty of.
I agree with Bob. I think they get Tex with Horne and Proctor, maybe even Andy Phillips, being part of the deal.
Its too quiet around Tex to the Yankees and my suspicious mind tells me something is up.
The fact they promoted Chamberlain and Kennedy, but not Horne, tells me Horne is in play on the trade market. I don’t think Chamberlain or Kennedy are going anywhere.
They aren’t trading Alan Horne for some bench guy or a back end of the rotation starter. Its either going to be for someone like Tex, or they aren’t moving him at all.
One thing we have seen about this Yankee team is, whatever their flaws may be, they don’t quit. On that basis alone, it should empower Cashman to add some help to the roster.
If they quit, then I would have said, “the heck with them” and remained quiet at the deadline. But, they are playing too hard not to help (if the price isn’t dumb, of course) out at the deadline.
re:Mussina
I admit it’s tough to watch Moose pitch because he has to battle for each out. But he is not nearly as bad as some on this blog make him out to be.
Prior to the rough start against TB his previous 7 starts were as follows:
Date IP/ER
15-Jul 6.0/3
4-Jul 6.0/3
29-Jun 7.0/1
24-Jun 5.0/2
19-Jun 6.0/3
13-Jun 7.2/2
7-Jun 6.0/1
That is more than adequate for a 4th/5th starter.
Yeah Moose isn’t going anywhere
alex t its about time sombody said it who the hell cares about dotel he’s not on the yankees and at least for the moment not going to be so who the hell cares about a one year deasl or two let it go
Pete,
I don’t want to be too picky but your example of Justin Verlander isn’t apt because he didn’t go to a major conference school. He went to Old Dominion in my old home area of Norfolk Va. Last time I checked they were in the Colonial Conference with major schools like UNCCW, James Madison, and George Mason.
I think the Yankees will get Wilson Betemit and Zack Grienke. Add bench player and a quality bullpen arm. Maybe a guy like Ryan Franklin could acquired too. I chose Betemit over Wigginton because Betemit is a better bench player than Wigginton. Wigginton is an everyday. Also, with the hot hands of Damon, Duncan, and Phillips, I don’t know how Wigginton would react to reduce playing time. Betemit is an excellent pinch hitter. He can play outfield too, maybe in the pinch.
I’d rather not see another high priced bullpen arms. The Yankees are stacked with pitchers in the minors. Not all will start. Find a slot for some in the bullpen. Young hard throwers that have minor league options give the team flexibility so you’re not stuck trotting Farnsworth out over and over.
This way – ‘08 rotation
1. Wang
2. Pettitte
3. Hughes
4. Mussina
5. Chamberlin
Next up in case of injury
Karstens, Kennedy, Horne
‘08 Bullpen (7 players assuming 12 man ‘pen – no particular order)
CL – Rivera – he gets resigned
2. Henn
3. Vizcaino – bring him back 2yrs 4 mill at the most
4. Bruney
5. Britton
6. JB Cox
7. Igawa (long man)
Next up (no particular ordrer)
Ohlendorf, Humberto Sanchez, C. Wright, Whelan, Marquez
- you’re only locked into Rivera and Viz. Bruney’s still not making much. Everyone else options so you can send them down.
I think Proctor gets traded by the deadline or in the off-season