Teixeira to Braves nearly complete
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jul 30, 2007 
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Medical records need to be checked. But it is being widely reported that the Rangers and Braves have made a deal.
Rangers get: C Jarrod Saltalamacchia, SS Elvis Andrus, RHP Nestali Feliz, LHP Matt Harrison.
Braves get: 1B Mark Teixeira, LHP Ron Mahay.
Analysis: The Braves evaluate their own prospects very well and rarely give up players who prove to be stars. Andy Marte, etc. But they certainly gave up a lot for Teixeira, who will be a free agent after 2008 and almost certainly will go on the market.
But this is a good trade, talent for talent. Both sides can claim victory.
From the perspective of the Yankees, now Jon Daniels can focus on dealing Eric Gagne. Brian Cashman will not trade Joba, the Franchise or Kennedy. But Alan Horne could be enough if he thows in another prospect or two.
The Yankees are the Mets are the only contenders Gagne has on the list of teams he would agree to go to. The Sandman and Lights Out at the end of games? That would work.
Would you take this bullpen?
Rivera
Gagne
Vizcaino
Chamberlain
Myers
Villone
Proctor
I’m pretty sure most of you would.
That would be the dream trade of the deadline for the Yanks.
Gagne and Rivera would be nasty.
…you are pretty SURE most of us would, right ? I, for one, completely agree with you Pete. Thanks for your posts.
Horne someday might be a #2 starter. Or he might never make it.
Gagne instantly makes this bullpen and this team championship worthy.
It has to be done.
Where there is smoke, there’s fire.
I think this Gagne thing gets done.
Also of note, Ross Ohlendorf was moved to the Scranton bullpen. They told him to not hold back and let everything loose. The end result? He was throwing 5 MPH faster than as a starter. He was in the mid-to-high 90s. I can definitely see him in the big club bull pen come August.
here is a blurb from Chad Jennings’ SWB blog:
“Ross Ohlendorf will stay in the bullpen for the time being. I haven’t been told it’s a permanent switch, but I know Newman was very impressed by what he saw from Ohlendorf on Thursday. Here’s what Newman said on Friday:
“I thought he was very impressive. He was at 95, 97 his first inning. His second inning they got a few cheap hits. That was very aggressive, it was impressive. He was like a whole different animal out there. He was turning them loose. It was really interesting to see how his approach changed from starting to the pen.�
Today, I asked Newman whether the team told Ohlendorf to let it all loose in his relief appearance. Newman said that the team actually just told him to be agreesive and that he was only going to be pitching an inning or two. The results were different than they expected. Ohlendorf added about five mph to his fastball and he was grunting with nearly every pitch, something out of character for the normally reserved Princeton kid.”
The other Peter, Gammons, has been high on Ohlendorf since last year. He thinks he’ll be helping the pen pretty soon.
You don’t trade Horne for a rent a player.
STOP THE MADNESS!
I’d rather trade 2 or 3 Clippard, Chase Wright, Jeff Marquez types than 1 Alan Horne.
Well, its about having options. Something they didn’t have for a number of years.
You can bash Cashman for a number of things but not for restocking the farm system.
A great system plus the financial resources to attack the FA market means trouble for other teams.
DJ good post but to me that sounds like an injury waiting to happen.
Yeah, I’d take that bullpen. I’d like to see Britton on the list instead of some of the _Heart-Attack Gang_ members (Myers, proctor, etc.), but I’d be pretty damn happy seeing Gagne and Joba on the list like that.
“But Alan Horne could be enough if he thows in another prospect or two.” Cashman already said Horne is in the same boat as Kennedy, Hughes and Joba. He won;t trade any of them. If he trade Horne, I’d want more than Gange. I would even have a hard time trading Marquez and Gardner for Gange. He is one changeup away from going on the DL. He will leave new york, if he ven comes, after this seaosn. Marquez a former 1st roudner is a groundball wiz. Gardner is kind of like a Ellsbury but for some reason doens’t get attention. I’d love to have Garner in center, let abreu walk and melky in right. I know melky doesn’t have the power to hit in a corner spot, but does Abreu have that much power?
I would be sick if the Yanks traded Alan Horne. He would be the top pitching prospect for most teams, but since he is in the Yanks system he is only their 3rd or 4th best pitching prospect. The guy was a former number one pick for a reason.
KJ,
I would agree that it sounds like an injury waiting to happen, but Ohlendorf used to throw in the mid to high 90s until the Diamondbacks slowed him down to stress control. Check out this scouting report: http://mvn.com/milb-yankees/20.....ohlendorf/
I was under the impression that Horne was untouchable too; why wouldn’t he be, comparing his numbers to Kennedy’s? I would think if they couldn’t get a deal done that revolved around Clippard and/or Marquez in terms of pitching prospects, the Yankees would just stick Joba in the pen and call it a day.
And why are people so anxious to trade young pitchers? How many of the Yankee pitching prospects will actually pan out? Only a handful, so that is why you got to hang onto your prospects like you are Bill Stoneman.
I am very glad you are not a the GM of the Yankees. Trading Horne for Gagne would be incredibly stupid. Horne has the chance to to be #2. Gagne would be here for two months. Not worth it at all. This is exactly the kind of deal that makes teams worse.
Pete,
When is the Chamberlain Hall Of Fame Induction cermony? LOL
A lot of things are going on right now. I love this time of the season!
No player is untouchable.
Horne is what you call a maybe player.
He’s not even in the top 3 of the Yankees top pitching prospects.
He’s been called Brian Bannister.
I wouldn’t mind trading Brian Bannister for one of the games best relievers and a chance at a title.
And if Gagne leaves you get 2 draft picks to restock that system.
It’s a no lose.
There is being protective (not trading Hughes/Joba/Tabata) and then theres just being over protective (not trading Gardener/Horne/Clippard)
Sometimes you have to give up something to get something.
It is why you have a good farm system.
He was called Brian Bannister by the resident moron at foxsports Ken Rosenthal. That is the same guy who said the Yanks should trade Hughes for Teixiera. Horne throws in the mid ninties which Bannister could never do.
Cash isn’t trading Horne, either. Jeff Marquez would be a jewel of the Rangers’ system.
I’d rather have it—>
Rivera
Gagne
Vizcaino
Chamberlain
Villone
Proctor
Henn
But either way Gagne would be a great pick up. Plus he’s a grade A guy so even if we only have him for two months we’ll get two 1st round picks when he leaves. I have a feeling if he was brought in that he might really enjoy himself as Mo’s set up man.
And you don’t get two picks for Gagne unless he is a Type A free agent, which he won’t be because they judge you on the previous three years of work.
Someone ask Stoneman if he would have traded the Dallas McPhersons of the world for a title.
You have to evaluate which prospects will turn into stars and which won’t.
There is a big tendency for teams to over value their prospects.
2 or 3 middling prospects do not equal one good one. When you have Phil, Chamberlain and Kennedy, you can afford to give up an Alan Horne.
You have to give something to get something. Swapping out Farnsworth for Gagne makes the team a LOT better. I’d like to see Britton get a shot too, but I haven’t heard what the deal is with his ab strain…
I forgot that Horne was Johan Santana mixed in with a young Roger Clemens.
Think Gange would have to shave that ridiculous attempt at a goatee?
Horne for a shot at a title this year and having a great bullpen?
I take the shot.
Who knows. Maybe Cash gets him for other prospects. But stop making Horne out to be Hughes or Joba or even Kennedy.
Andy,
I agree that teams overvalue their prospects, but they do it for a reason. Think the Giants would still make the AJ Peirzynski trade? Think the Cubs would still trade for Matt Clement? It is so hard to judge who will be great and who won’t, that is why you have to hang on to as many prospects as possible.
Horne is a top level pitching prospect. He’s better than Clippard. You don’t trade him for a one month rental. You trade him for a key gog. Not for Gagne.
Speaking of Britton’s strain, has anybody heard any word on Humberto’s situation recently?
http://www.clubbronx.com
“one of the games best relievers and a chance at a title”
Umm, Gagne WAS one of the games best relievers, in 2004. Now he is an injury waiting to happen. In fact, he’s ALREADY been injured once this year. Without a doubt, when healthy, Gagne makes the bullpen awesome. However, this team has a lot more things working funky than just the BP, and one reliever does not a championship guarantee. Not even close.
The Yanks had their chance to sign Gagne in the off-season, and will again this coming off-season. Instead, they might trade a solid prospect for a guy whose arm will fall off under the Torre system.
Gagne doesn’t make the Yankees a playoff team. They still can’t hit lefties. However, Gagne, Chamberlain (if used right, which he won’t be), and Hughes does make this team damn close.
Wow, that’s a lot of wishy-washy stuff from me, but in the end, if the price is Horne, I don’t make the deal.
And by the way, Horne is Bannister but with more Ks and better control. So therefore, he rates better than Bannister. And look what Bannister is doing this year.
And Gagne wouldn’t be a key cog in that pen???
I guess you’re part of the few that like seeing Farnsworth and Bruney in there.
You have to give up something to get something.
This is why you stockpile pitching prospects.
Please don’t compare Horne to Liriano or Nathan. That’s really unfair to the kid.
If hes Boof Bonser he’d be happy at this point.
The Yankees are again stupid — cashman is inept
There were two young, proven two every day players available whom the Yankees need – 1B and a replacement for Jorge – who he can tutor and slide into DH
The Braves has the C and the Rangers had the 1b
He blew a deal for Beltran – that wil haunt for years
Now he has blown a deal for Texiera — that wil haunt for years
Nothing will fix the Yankees until Joe T is gone. He is the wrong general for this fight and has been sine the Angels series in 2002.
Joe hs proven he is a poor tactical manager, has near zero patience for youth, especially young pitchers, and can’t figure a bullpen
He needs another Mo – a 2 inning Mo and Gagne is a broken rental – he is not it-
– get rid of the gasoline guys — proctor, myers, and villone, so Joe can’t reach for them
Focus on next year and the years after –
see what the kids can do – maybe Joba is the 2nd coming of Mo — better stuff but can he focus, control, not get hurt, does he have ice water in his veins. Pitchers are a crap shoot —
Get ready for next season and those that follow
after you have seen what they can do – trade some of them — even Hughes for Santana
You already blew having a quality 1B for the next 7-8 years
And by the way, look at Horne’s #s next to, say, Kennedy, and there is no reason to think Kennedy is a better prospect. Horne throws harder as well. He’s not overvalued, he’s a legit prospect. Clippard, Wright, DeSalvo, those guys were what they were and got exposed. Horne should be in AAA, and will be when Joba and Hughes go up to the majors…Unless hes gone.
Anyone that has seen this bullpen the past month that doesn’t want Gagne is clueless.
Andy,
The point is that when the Giants traded those guys they didn’t think it would come back to bite them in the a@$ the way it did. There are so many examples of this, Minaya trading Grady Sizemore for a few months of Bartolo Colon and so on. I wouldn’t want to be the guy who trades a future top starter for a injury prone pitcher like Gagne who would only be around for a couple of months.
You can want Gagne, but its still stupid to give up a front line pitching prospect for him. That’s what a bad team will do.
If you are BC, with the depth that you have in this system, you make this deal to bring in Gagne. You trade away an Alan Horne, but you still have Hughes, Joba, Kennedy, Clippard, Wright, Betances, and the list goes on and on and on.
It’s nice to have your prospects and to build your system, but not every prospect you develop helps your team directly… some of these prospects need to be used to import other, already MLB ready talent to compliment what you have already.
Just imagine the back end of a game with a healthy MO and Gagne… thats just sick.
Prospects aren’t prospects because of numbers/stats.
Its because of talent, size, head, tools, and talent again.
Production and numbers are nice but having that doesn’t mean one is a prospect.
Horne would be the top pitching prospect on at least 10-12 teams. Trading him for less than his value just because we have depth is not only retarded, but I can see it happening too… sigh
I’m not sold on Gagne, either. I get a queasy feeling about it. Is it really smart to take a chance on a guy who is not durable? Is it smart to give up a prospect or two to acquire someone that may or may not help? I know every trade is a gamble, but, I don’t feel great about this one. If he doesn’t work out, you have not only not improved the situation, but lost a couple of prospects that may have been useful in a more productive move in the post-season.
I do want Farnsworth gone, however. (Just not to Detroit – I’m a skittish individual, doncha know, and I’m sure if Detroit gets him just in time for facing the Yanks, Kyle will have suddenly found the strike zone!)
please don’t compare getting a top reliever like Gagne to getting a catcher like AJ P.
And don’t compare Cashman who is protective of talent to a hack like Brian Sabean.
Name me one trade where Cash traded future all stars away for hacks.
You can’t. So have faith.
But there is a reason you stockpile all this talent. It’s to improve your team.
I’m iffy on Gagne. He’s definitely a rental, but a good one – *IF* he can stay healthy. What’s he worth? I dunno. I’m not a professional scout, nor can I evaluate Horne’s future with any precision. But I do know that Gagne is a definite upgrade over what we have now. As John Heyman said, Gagne at 80% is 100% better than Farnsworth.
“But Alan Horne could be enough *if he thows in another prospect or two.*”
i find it amazing how most of you seem to respond as if it were a straight Horne for Gagne trade that Pete was suggesting. Last week they wanted Joba for Gagne, now they’ll suddenly settle on Horne?
That said, put me in the Gagne is overrated crowd. Sure we could put him to good use, but there’s a few out there that we could put to good use…
Trade Horne for Saltamachia.We need a future catcher.
Sosa and Gagne to Yankees for Farmsworth and Proctor….story at 11….
“Umm, Gagne WAS one of the games best relievers, in 2004. Now he is an injury waiting to happen.”
Please go back and review Horne’s injury history.
I think you will be shocked since he is an injury waiting to happen more than a Gagne.
no thanks – I could do without sosa.
Good move by the Braves.
Anyone watching Mad Dog? What’d he say about Costas not asking Schilling about the meeting with Congress a couple years ago. I hate Schill, but didnt know he did anything bad at that meeting.
Not sold on Gagne?
I’d rather have a bag of balls out there than the disasters going now.
Gagne looks like Goose Gossage compared to Farnsworth.
He instantly makes this pen legit.
Alan Horne=GOD
when andy petitte signed with the astros in 2003, do you guys know who the compensatory pick in the 2004 draft was? Phil Hughes as the 23rd pick. So it isnt the worst thing to get two first round draft picks if gagne were to leave and with the yankees resources get an ever better prospect than horne.
“There were two young, proven two every day players available whom the Yankees need – 1B and a replacement for Jorge – who he can tutor and slide into DH
The Braves has the C and the Rangers had the 1b
He blew a deal for Beltran – that wil haunt for years
Now he has blown a deal for Texiera—that wil haunt for years”
what are you talking about?
how did he “blow” a deal for teixeira?
this is silly.
please state what you think Cashman should have offered for Teixeira. remember, it needs to be MORE than what Atlanta paid.
The Rangers aren’t getting much interest in Sammy Sosa, but considering Sosa’s performance against left-handed pitching, they probably should be.
*Sosa entered Sunday’s play with a 1.015 on-base/slugging percentage against lefties, the ninth highest in the American League.*
The Twins’ Torii Hunter, Tigers’ Gary Sheffield, Angels’ Vladimir Guerrero and White Sox’s Paul Konerko were among the right-handed hitters who had a lower OPS than Sosa against lefties.
The Rangers want to trade Sosa to create playing time for Jason Botts.
Plandome,
He did have TJ surgery a couple years ago, but as we all know TJ ain’t what it used to be. He has been injury free for the Yanks. All pitchers are injury risks, some moreso than others.
I cannot see the Rangers turning down a Marquez and Clippard package for Gagne.
They need quality and quantity with SP. And they would get two young, controllable pitchers for a FA to be.
“ease go back and review Horne’s injury history.
I think you will be shocked since he is an injury waiting to happen more than a Gagne.”
SO he had Tommy John surgery when in college, his Sophomore year. That does not make him an injury risk–with the success of that surgery, it makes him LESS of a risk. On the other hand, look at Gagne. THAT is the DEFINITION of injury prone…
Bart edsall says “You already blew having a quality 1B for the next 7-8 years”
Teixeira still becomes a FA after 2008. The Braves gave up a lot for a rental.
Exactly dontfirecash. Every pitcher comes with a lot of assumed risk. You cannoy argue with Gagne’s record and his record this year. He makes this team a contender right away.
He makes the starters better. He makes Mo better. He makes Vizcaino better.
I don’t hear one scout say Horne is an ace. It’s not like they’re moving Hughes for him.
Gagne was on the DL 2 times early this season; does anyone know what for? His current stats look good, and if he stays healthy, great, but I think that’s a big “if.”
Gagne would be miserable in a Yankee uniform, and, regardless, he is guaranteed to bolt at the end of the season. If he doesn’t bolt, you have to be concerned about his injury history and the (very good) chance that he will be on the DL again sometime in the near future. To give up ANY minor league prospect who shows any promise for Gagne at this point would be the height of stupidity. I for one, hope to god the trade doesn’t happen. Would Gagne make the bullpen better for the next two months? Absolutely. Would he be the difference maker that brings the Yanks to the Series? I really don’t think so…
Oh…and to trade multiple prospects for Gagne will only magnify what a horrendously bad trade it would be… Mark my words, the Yanks will rue the day they pull the trigger on a deal like this. Keep the kids and look forward to next year!
Has anyone been watching Cashman the past few years?
What gave you the insane idea he’d trade anything for a FA to be like Texeira which he can get for just money in ’08?
Keep in mind, the ’08 that Giambi’s money comes off the books.
oh and one other thing…joba chamberlain was the compensatory pick for the phillies signing tom gordon…
not bad right?
Gagne would be miserable being in a pennant race and setting up the worlds best ever closer in a packed stadium of 56,000 every single night.
He’s be pulling his hair out. You’re so right, Chicago Dave.
He’d be much happier pitching with no pressure for a last place team with no fans in the stands.
I could think of worse guys coming off the bench than Sosa.
The more pop off the bench the better.
But Gagne wouldn’t be getting saves setting up for Mariano, and that could affect his market value at the end of the season, couldn’t it? I mean from a pure numbers viewpoint? Unless “holds” are an equally important number these days. So, I could see how Gagne, even though he indicated he would go to the Yankees uncontested, might not be perfectly happy here. I’m sure he’d rather go to a team that needs a closer.
Andy –
Get a clue…The guy has repeatedly said he wants to close, not be a setup man. Besides, he stands to lose quite a bit of cash in the deal, based on the fact that his incentive-laden contract with the Rangers is centered on him making appearances as a closer, not how many games he safely hands off to a closer. Is this making sense to you now?
Just because we’re fans of the Yanks and think players should be chomping at the bit to come here doesn’t make it reality!
I’m not feeling Gagne right now, but it looks like we’re going to get him. I think you can put Alan Horne on the untouchable list. Jeff Marquez and Clippard should do it. Otherwise, we’re overpaying for some free agent to be, injury proned player.
“oh and one other thing…joba chamberlain was the compensatory pick for the phillies signing tom gordon…
not bad right?”
they actually got two picks… the other was Ian Kennedy.
No you’re so right Chicago Dave. He’d be miserable pitching high pressure innings in a pennant race in New York.
He’d much rather close for a last place team.
You even think about what you’re saying before you put it down? I’d say get a clue but that’s giving you too much credit.
You know Cashman’s MO is usually getting the player less on the radar. My prediction is that we deal an A level pitcher and a marginal positional prospect for Marte or Dotel or someone like that.
Gagne knows what his role would be with the Yankees. He knows Mo is the closer and there is no debate about it.
He wouldn’t have put the Yankees on his list of contending teams if he wasn’t willing to be the set-up man.
Gagne could actually increase his value significantly if he pitches well in the middle of a pennant race as a set-up man than be a doormat and close games for Texas.
Who doesn’t think the Yankees will just guarantee that extra incentives in the contract to take care of that closing games thing?
Are you serious??
“Buddy
July 30th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
I could think of worse guys coming off the bench than Sosa.
The more pop off the bench the better.”
and who would you REALLY prefer to be our DH against lefties ? Sammy Sosa or Shelley Duncan ???….and IMO, anyone that says Duncan needs to be fitted for a brain…just IMO…
I’d do backflips if we got Gagne.
That would be some bullpen.
Parker…you need to start practicing right NOW !
Shelley’s a good story and may be a solid DH in time but Sosa is absolutely mashing lefty’s this year.
He could be this years version of Strawberry during the playoff stretch drive.
Andy -
Do you read anything besides this blog? Apparently not…Otherwise I wouldn’t have to give you the basics on why Gagne wouldn’t be happy here (including the cold, harsh realities of the nature of the incentive bonuses in Gagne’s contract with the Rangers). Once you’re willing to open your mind and step out of Yankeeland for just a moment…then we can have an intelligent conversation about this subject. Until then, we can just agree to disagree and stop wasting each other’s time.
One more thing…baseball is a business and, as such, players care about money first and foremost – often to the exclusion of anything else. So, if you think simply “wearing the pinstripes” and “playing in front of 50,000 screaming fans at Yankee Stadium” is all that matters to Gagne, then you’re seriously deluded.
Just out of curiosity – where exactly would you put Sosa? We already have four outfielders (Abreu, Matsui, Damon, Melky), and Giambi will be returning in a few weeks so there goes the DH spot. And when Giambi returns, it’s already going to create a mess in who gets to play. Melky has the chops to be a full time OF. Damon and Matsui pretty much take up the DH spot. Abreu plays full time. So where does Sosa go?
Ten years ago it would have not been a problem.
Now?
I’m like Moises Alou.
DJ,
That picture of Ross in your link makes his arm look GIGANTIC and weird. Just had to point that out. It is worth looking at strictly for the oddities in his right arm.
So, I guess I should say…thanks?
Very very weird.
sunny615….IMO, Melky will be traded….just IMO…
P.S. – Does anyone remember the days when the Yankees would trade prospects like Jay Buhner for rent-a-players like Ken Phelps? Not that Horne (and others) for Gagne is potentially on the same level, but it’s definitely the same idea…So, just something to remember, I think.
I’ll take Gagne and Mo over Hirojima and Papelbon, especially when the games begin to matter. They still need to address the lack of depth on the bench, particularly right-handed bat. I’ll pass on Sosa, what about renting Mike Piazza???
Since Gagne isn’t a type A free agent, he shouldn’t be traded for Horne. If he was, most definately the deal would be worth it.
I’d offer Marquez, White, and either Juan Miranda or Brett Gardner. If the Rangers balk, then too bad.
Realistically, the odds are that Gagne would leave and we wouldn’t win the World Series anyway. Why give up integral pieces of the future for a rent-a-player.
Marquez, White, a third player would definately improve the Rangers system. No question.
I guess Chicago Dave doesn’t think the Yankees would just guarantee that 3 mill to get a deal done with Gagne.
Like the Yanks don’t have that money. You think they would bat an eye at that???
Get a clue, mate.
he’s a professional ball player. You really think he wants to play for a last place team than come to NY for a few months? You’re out of your mind, Chicago Dave.
Trading Melky would be another bad idea of epic proportions…
Comparing a great reliever to Ken Phelps???
Now you’re embarrassing yourself, Chicago Dave.
If we want a relief pitcher whose arm is hanging on by a thread we should call the Cubs about Kerry Wood. At least he’d probably be a lot cheaper.
Sunny615,
Why would we want anything to do with Sammy Sosa?
He makes ZERO sense for New York right now. We’re already trying to figure out what to do with Melky and Damon when H”G”iambiH comes back.
What do the Yankees need help with? The pen, that is it.
Cash has indicated that Melky will not be traded. Damon has a limited no trade, and Abreu and Matsui have full no trades – as does Giambi.
Andy -
Yep, and historically everyone has wanted to come to the Yanks rather than stay with their current, mediocre team, right? It never happens that a guy would rather stay where he is than go to the Yankees…Nope, that would never, ever happen, would it? EVERYONE is willing to sell their first born to wear the pinstripes…
Please…Get a grip already.
I cannot for the life of me understand what yankee fan wouldn’t want Gagne as part of the set up crew.
They’re not trading Hughes. Chamberlain.
Have some faith in Cashman and his staff.
I’d like a staff in 4 years of all home grown guys but there is a better chance of the Nationals winning the series this year than that.
I cannot find any video on Farns and Posada. But I did find a video on Farns from a couple of months ago. I’m still searching. Torre looks drugged up.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=eOSW1f8K4HA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=roi.....038;search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=g6J.....038;search=
Chicago Dave, obviously you know very, very little about Gagne and how competitive he is and what kind of player he is.
We’ll agree to you’re clueless and be done with it. Thanks.
Andy -
I start to question if you can read. If you read my entire post, you wouldn’t have responded as you did.
Phelps was a rent-a-player, so is your buddy Gagne. Therefore, it is exactly the same idea – i.e. trading prospects for guys that will only be with the Yanks for a matter of months.
Larry – it’s not me – I’m against it – please read above. KAJ believes he’s a good fit.
Chicago Dave:
I agree the Buhner for Phelps deal was stupid of the Yankees. But for every such deal, you also have the Brandon Clausen for Aaron Boone deals that go to show us not all prospects turn out to be the real deal. Unless I’m wrong about Clausen and he’s racking up the wins for the Reds.
If anyone has watched Gagne this year knows his arm isn’t hanging by any thread.
He’s been pretty dominant and consistent.
And wait for this. He doesn’t walk many!
How novel!
A bullpen like Pete listed would be ’98 esque.
Andy -
And I suppose you’re walking around inside Gagne’s head right now? Were you both “separated at birth” or something? Some telepathic connection I don’t know about?
Listen, genius, if he was such a “competitor” and wanted to be on a winning team so very badly, why did he go to Texas in the first place. Can’t wait to hear your pretzel logic on this one…
The key is to figure out what prospects are going to be successful.
If they figure Horne is a 5th starter or a pen guy than it makes great sense.
If they think he’s a #2 starter than there is no way Cash trades him.
Don’t fall in love with prospects.
Melky is good, but he is not great. I feel like if we could trade him for Gange, it would be a decent move. Besides, we cant get players for nothing. Not this year, we are going to have to give up something.
Sunny615,
Thank god. Sorry, I didn’t see above.
I think trading for Gagne has its perks, but also its prospective downsides.
For one, his elbow injuries frighten me. Two, didn’t he only sign a one year contract? RENTAL. I’d need to be convinced that he can pitch in NY and that he is willing to negotiate an extension before giving up ANY prospects for him.
On the flip side, he could make the last two innings of every game absolutely LIGHTS OUT with Mo. That would make every game only 7 innings and I like the sound of that.
Pauly One – True, but in this case we’re talking about multiple prospects for a rent-a-player, which only increases the odds of at least one of those guys giving Texas a much better return for a much longer period of time than Gagne is bound to give the Yanks.
sunny615
July 30th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
“Cash has indicated that Melky will not be traded”
Sunny, no disrepect, but do you really think that Cash is above changing his mind ? I truly believe that all GMs are liars by definition and will ultimately do what they think will benefit the club. If Melky needs to be traded to upgrade the club ( in Cash’s mind ),,,I don’t think that any “indication” Cash gave earlier will have any bearing on that decision….just IMO, though….
I think its a bit presumptious of you, Chicago Dave, to keep on writing/insisting/pleading that Gagne won’t want to pitch in NY. That he’d much rather pitch for a last place team in the middle of nowhere.
And why? Because of a million bucks? Yeah, I think you’re going out on a limb there and basically saying he’s a wuss who doesn’t want the pressure.
I think you’re clueless and wrong.
Gagne is a prideful professional ballplayer. He wouldn’t have put the Yanks on his list of teams he could be moved to if he wouldn’t want to go there.
The guy pitched in LA for years. Not like that’s Tampa Bay.
He’d be a real nice fit.
Looks like Dotel is going to the Braves.
Andy –
You still didn’t answer my question about why he went to Texas…
Sosa or Piazza off the bench would be huge…Abreu, Damon, and even Cano have all shown they can’t hit lefties this year…
The three things the Yanks need are, in order of importance:
1) Dump Farnsworth
2) Acquire a solid-dominant reliever
3) Acquire a right handed power bat off the bench
1) should be the easiest, 3) shouldn’t be too hard, 2) is the tricky one…I have faith in Cash, it’ll be interesting.
KAJ -
Sure Cash can change his mind, but with one distraction that is Giambi already on the team, why bring in another? Melky is providing fantastic defense and is giving this team a spark it lacked in the beginning of the season. If anything, this season has proven how valuable he is and that he needs to be an everyday player to hit consistently. Sosa’s power bat while provocative, would give us another aging slow OF that we have a pluthera of now and many of us here have griped about all season long (unloading Damon and Abreu). I would prefer to stick with youth and defense.
I wouldn’t believe anything a GM said especially at the trade deadline. Especially about availability.
Horne untouchable? How about if Minny offered Santana for him? He still untouchable? Same with Melky.
Another thing, Gagne came come to this team and blow out his elbow and he would be better than anyone in the bullpen except Mo. I hope we can upgrade with him. If that means saying goodbye to Melky, so be it.
You asked a question, Chicago Dave???
He went to Texas because he wanted to close. Maybe he liked the uniforms. Maybe he liked the coaches. The players. The money.
But its not like he signed along term deal. It’s not anyone knows what other offers Gagne had coming off an injury.
That answer you, Chicago Dave? Stop assuming that he doesn’t want pressure and won’t pitch in NY because he choose a team as a FA.
Sammy Sosa in pinstripes is a TERRIBLE idea.
Piazza is one thing, Sosa is quite another.
Utility guys like Betemit make sense to me, but adding some free-swinging HGH monkey is a bad idea.
The Braves are really going for it with Teix and now Dotel. Muts fans can’t be too happy about that.
If Gagne pitched underhand he’d be better in the 8th than anyone on the roster right now.
Bob from NJ I agree… Bench righty bat.. Get rid of Kyle, bad results and a bad guy, and a bridge to marainao… I think they should deal with this internally with; joba, ohlendorf, veras, britton and ramirez..
the problem is torre does not give young guys a fair shake…Maybe he would for joba because the hype is pretty significant but they need more then joba if they are to compete. they have 2 reliable pitchers in the pen out of 8….
send myers away also he stinks…bruney needs to go to SWB..
Cashman gets Gagne for peanuts. Theo Epstein seen in his gorilla suit.
More on the 6:00 PM sports report ……
If they can get Gagne, they can trade their excess ie Farnsworth for a Betemit.
My guess is we’ll see a flurry of Yank activity tonight.
I think one could also argue that Gagne went to Texas for a fresh start where he could prove that his arm was healthy again and that he is capable of closing.
Think about it, he goes to a team he knows has zero chance of competing, but where he can close, be relaxed, and focus on regaining hs status as a dominant closer.
Now, this doesn’t mean that I am not frightened by his right elbow, but all the same, it’d make sense from his persepctive.
Larry,
Take your racist comments elsewhere, thanks. Sosa is a “free swinging monkey?” Read that again. Ignorance.
Sosa would be a terrific addition to the team, as would Piazza, and both would be cheap.
who they give up for DOtel??Braves think the mets are beatable, I agree. The NL stinks..
I do not trade Melky for Gagne under any circumstances…
Newsflash Melky is a good player and BTW he is 23 yrs old…..and the Yanks have NO OPTIONS for CF…
“He went to Texas because he wanted to close. Maybe he liked the uniforms. Maybe he liked the coaches. The players. The money.”
OK, so it had nothing to do with his competitive nature and wanting to win. Not to mention the fact that you also admitted that “money” was a factor… Interesting! I guess playing for the Yankees isn’t the only dream a major league ballplayer can have, right?!
Braves Close To Acquiring Octavio Dotel
[quote]
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7074020
Interesting development via Ken Rosenthal: the Braves are close to a deal for Royals’ closer Octavio Dotel. They apparently have made a better offer than finalists Cleveland and Los Angeles.
Royals GM Dayton Moore knows his way around Atlanta’s farm system, of course. He had all kinds of player development roles within the Braves organization. The Braves’ top three prospects heading into the season per Baseball America were Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Elvis Andrus, and Matt Harrison. With those three out of the picture perhaps Moore is going for outfielder Brandon Jones or first baseman Scott Thorman.
Quite a day for Atlanta…now to snag a starter…[/quote]
i’d take sosa over piazza, no question.
Larry,
two things, adding HGH to giambi’s name (Hâ€?Gâ€?iambiH) is a stretch. He only has the G in his name, adding the H’s makes no sense, its like calling McGwire HmcGwireH. Its dumb. And calling a domincan a monkey aint the smartest move either.
Larry…that was not cool…I understand that you disagree, but I think you went over the line….IMO…
nice move for the braves and texas
salty is a great player and Tex will be huge with the atlanta fans
They need to strengthen that bullpen and the bench.
Shouldn’t take much to do.
If I am a general manager, who keep in mind is “on the hook,” and I think Gagne is gonna make my bullpen better, then I’m willing to rent that guy for a few prospects that may or may not be that good 2-5 years from now. I’m all for one in keeping your young core players, but not all of them are going to pan out to be great and you just have to hope that the ones you keep do become the next Mo, Andy, Jeter and on and on.
I like the Gagne rental if it doesn’t cost top tier prospects, and I place Horne right at the bottom of that top tier. He was a sixth round draft choice (If I remember correctly)coming out of Florida, so if you knew that you were getting compensatory picks for Gagne that would make a deal more palatable. Too bad we have no way of knowing what Gagne’s rating is….
Bob,
It was not a racist comment you dumba$$.
If you will notice, I refer to any ex or current juicer as Roid, HGH, Amphetamine MONKEYS. Has nothing to do with race you toolbox.
Don’t read in to things.
KAJ,
Read my last post.
“I’ll take Gagne and Mo over Hirojima and Papelbon, especially when the games begin to matter. ”
when do the games begin to matter anyway? i cant wait for summer training to end
Andy- your arguments are brainless.
Last week I got in some debate about where Giambi fit in to the team.
I HATE Giambi because he is the epitome of a cheating, juicing, amphetamine popping, HGH MONKEY!
I am of the opinion that monkeys, while intelligent primates, are of a lower brain capacity than are human beings or homo sapean if you prefer.
For a human being to use illegal, performance enhancing drugs, lends me to commit them to idiot, primate, monkey status.
Sorry if I offend any of you veterinarians out there though.
Chicago Dave, I think you are slow.
What about him wanting to close is not being competitive?
Texas gave him the chance to close and they paid him well. That doesn’t mean he wants to stay there. He thought things would be different. They do have a ton of offensive talent there.
I don’t get it. Are you that clueless? Why would be a competitor want to stay with a last place club all year when he can go to a team in the race???
A team that will pay his incentives so he doesn’t have to worry about it.
I understand you’re probably a Sox fan but get a clue.
“when do the games begin to matter anyway? i cant wait for summer training to end ”
They’ll start to matter if they make the trade for Gagne. If not, this is all a “moo” point
Larry, not to mention that you actually like Piazza, who shouldn’t be above steroid speculation either. The guy was a charity draft pick by the Dodgers in the late rounds as a favor to his god-father (Lasorda) and he turns out to be one of the best hitting catchers of all time. Hmmmmmm.
Plus he has no position because his should has degenerated to the point that he cannot throw (not like he was any good defensively anyway).
Larry, FYI I’ve heard plenty of rumors involving Piazza and PEDs… He was a fat kid in high school.
For those of you freaking out about losing Horne, Ken Rosenthal is reporting that the Braves are close to trading for Octavio Dotel. If that is true and it does happen, that would significantly improve the Yankees position for Gagne.
We all agree he will walk after this year because he is a Boras client and a FA. There is also less of a guarantee for Texas that he will re-sign with them and settle for last place, rather wanting to close for a contender.
This leave Texas less room to demand a major return from the Yankees. Oh and he would settle for setting up Mo’ in exchange for some extra cash, which the Yankees will give.
I don’t get why Gagne wouldn’t want to come here.
What ballplayer wants to play for a last place team in a city that cares more about Cowboys training camp than the Rangers?
Obviously he doesn’t mind coming to NY since he put the Yanks and Mets on his Can be traded to list.
I have to say I’m torn. Gagne would be great and it doesnt make sense to pay Roger a truck load of cash to not make the playoffs, but Horne has really blossomed this yr. Overall I think it makes sense for us to go for him but lets not give away too much for 20 innings from Gagne.
It will probably take someone from the Kennedy, Horne, Marquez, Betances, McAllister, Jackson, group to get this done. That would really sting. Although we would get at least a 1st rnd pick for Gagne next yr. But it could be protected cos Texas will still suck.
We have amazing depth in the minors though so maybe a package of other guys from the Chase Wright, Britton, Gardner, David Robertson, Karstens, Whelan, Clippard, DeSalvo, Bean, Beam, Henn, Shelley Duncan class. Proctor, Farnsy and Igawa will be available as well.
Although as Pete has said before 10 OK prospects dont equal 1 good one. Daniels looks like he got a good price for Texiera so he will probably hold out for a great package for Gagne. He could keep him and still be happy.
rbizzler,
I am not sure if you are debating with me or pointing out that you think Piazza is a former juicer. Could be, not sure, who knows. I guess that is the scary thing about steroids.
He doesn’t have a position, you are right, this being the reason he is more valuable. He is an expensive pinch hitter, but he wouldn’t clog up an already ridiculous OF scene.
What do you do with Melky if you are going to DH Giambi and force Damon back to CF? You think Damon at $13 million a year is going to pinch hit? Doubt it. Melky is the odd man out and everyone knows this. It is unfortunate too.
I do agree with you on Piazza’s status though…not sure if he’d be a good fit, but I’d take him over Sosa.
KAJ, what happened?! teixiera was coming to the yankees for pitching prospects, right? you “reported” as such yesterday. deal fall through?
gagne for horne and another low-level guy needs to happen. just say no to dan johnson, please, brian.
get rid of myers and farns and i’ll be happy. I mean seriously… a righty can get lefties out better than myers at this point…
do you guys realize how a TRADE works?
Gagne has absolutely NO SAY in the matter. he can be traded to the yankees.
the yankees don’t have to guarantee his incentives to “get a deal done” with him.
he has a contract. the rangers can TRADE that contract to the yankees.
gagne can’t stop that from happening.
i don’t get this argument.
Does anyone have proof of these allegations???
saucy,
read my lines above.
I loved that post though…he was a fat kid in HS. hahah
I think that Gagne proved that he is a competitor by seeking out an opportunity to close and didn’t just take the highest offer to pitch as a set-up guy. Farnsworth did just that when he signed with the Yanks after he turned down several chances to close (red flag). Instead, Gagne took an incentive-laden contract (granted he was coming off of multiple injuries and teams weren’t going to guarantee him much money) that increases his compensation when he has continued success.
Sounds like a winner to me…..
What pro athlete isn’t on something?
If you are really worried about them being “on stuff” you shouldn’t watch the sport.
Athletes will always try to make themselves better by any means necessary. They are dealing with millions of dollars. A minor leaguer would be insane not to try something.
I’ve given up moralizing on pro sports. Legalize everything and let them go nuts.
Larry…tone it down a notch….lighten up….breath….take it easy…it is alright….no need to blow a gasket…..calm down…..
hmmmm,
Well put.
who do you give up to get gagne ? ian kennedy ? i wouldnt .
kasey…yes, deal fell through,,,just like your application to Mensa…
KAJ,
I know, I know.
I just don’t like being called a racist…this offends me more than anything.
Someone could tell me my mother has record-breaking saddle-bags and that would still anger me less than being called a racist.
“Melky is good, but he is not great. I feel like if we could trade him for Gange, it would be a decent move. ”
no, it would be a horrible move.
melky is 22 years old, he is one of the 5 best defensive CFers in the league, and he has an OPS+ of 104.
the yankees control his rights for another 4-5 seasons.
he is a starting CFer in the big leagues.
he is worth MUCH more than 9 weeks of a setup guy who will at most, throw 35 innings for your team.
I love people throwing every athlete under the bus because they may be big or they were the fat kid in high school.
Working out doesn’t make one better and leaner???
Natural ability doesn’t work?
When did everyone become Jose Canseco?
Craig, I believe. I dont see anyone calling Phil Niekro a monkey.
I take protein shakes. I take PED’s like Piazza.
I’d give up Jeff Marquez and Sean Henn or somebody else.
Yanks have to be careful who they give up. AA pitchers yes (even a Horne). MLB contributors no.
Steve Phillips said in his espn chat today that he would trade Melky straight up for Gagne in a “heartbeat” right now b/c at best Melky will be a 4th outfielder that will never hit for average.
Um, Steve, newsflash, he’s actually one of the best regular defensive CFers in the league RIGHT NOW (his ZR is on the upper end of the spectrum and climbing and he is leading AL CFers in assists), and he is only 22. Melkman is becoming a force out there. And don’t look now, but he also has a .900+ OPS this past month and is hitting .289 with a good OBP and climbing slugging. Again, he’s only 22. He’s a switch hitting plus plus defender showing increased patience and gap power. He’s basically becoming a rare player in the game today, much more rare than post-op relievers that have crossed age 30. Yeah, he’s a role player all right – his role is to almost by himself make the team about 10 times better than it has been in CF since Bernie was close to the same age (but even better, actually) in the second most important defensive position in the game.
If I told Phillips he could have a plus plus defender in center that at 22 (after slumping while playing only part time) would hit .290 with a nearly .350 OBP and .400+ slugging through half a season’s ABS would he do that for a oft-injured former fireballer that is a prime roids suspect?
You cannot trade Horne for Gagne.
http://mvn.com/milb-yankees/20.....lan-horne/
Yeah, Larry. Relax a little.
Calling black dudes monkey’s isn’t the way to go.
Larry….let’s keep our mothers out of this….LOL ! All is well, friend !
RAFAEL PALMIERO IS A ROID MONKEY!
GIAMBI IS A ROID MONKEY!
SHEFFIELD IS A ROID MONKEY!
MCGWIRE IS A ROID MONKEY!
CANSECO IS A ROID MONKEY!
JASON GRIMSLEY IS A ROID MONKEY!
KEN CAMMINNITTI IS A ROID MONKEY!
We are all one under the sun.
Who listens to Steve Phillips?
Isn’t he the guy who traded for Mo Vaughn, passed on A-Rod and ran the Mets into the ground?
Thinkin again about it. Cashman wont throw out a rotation with Hughes, Chamberlain and another rookie in one yr. And Kennedy would be next for the call. And we have another crop led by McAllister and Betances a few more yrs away together with Sanchez making his return from injury.
It makes sense to deal from strengths and we’d still get a compensation pick and have Marquez, Karstens and (gulp) Igawa as options next yr.
Cashman knows if he doesnt win this yr he wont be around to see the other guys develop and it would be a waste of cash to pay Roger et all so much and not give them every chance to win it all. I say make the deal.
Damnit Greg,
Please read everything.
I am calling steroid users monkeys. Dear lord, what must I do to get this point across?!
COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC:
Former 49ers coach Bill Walsh passed away Monday at the age of 75 after a long battle with leukemia.
Walsh’s influence goes far beyond his three Super Bowl titles and the seven-straight top-five offensive rankings to end his career. His West Coast offense based around short timing patterns revolutionized offensive strategy. His personnel and organizational techniques also continue to influence the league today.
ROTOWORLD
One of my idols!!!!
Larry, Sammy Sosa has never been accused by Canseco, nor is he mentioned in Game of Shadows, nor is he mentioned any where else that has some sort of credible source (FBI investigations, etc…
so by your own words why cant sosa fall under these catagories?
Working out doesn’t make one better and leaner???
Natural ability doesn’t work?
What about Juan Rincon, Mota, Alex Sanchez, all those minor league guys?
Marvin Gardens,
TOTALLY AGREE.
Steve Phillips is the epitome of how poor Baseball Tonight has become since the departures of Harold Reynolds and Peter Gammons.
Craig,
All Roid Monkeys. Thank you for expanding my list.
I am open to more.
No it doesn’t Larry. Stop acting like a jerk. Calling black guys monkeys isn’t right. I don’t care how many times you try to explain it.
My point was in addition to making questionable racialized comments that disqualified Sosa as a trade possibility (I am lukewarm on Sosa and Piazza), you were promoting a guy who has been the subject of PED speculation as well. Seemed a bit hypocritical to me.
As for what happens when Giambi gets back, hopefully they will learn from last year and stay with the lineup that got them back in the race. I think that Melky as the regular CF is a must and that you can work out a platoon with Damon/Zilla/Giambi/Phillips between LF/1B/DH. With Giambi seeing as little time as possible in the field of course.
1. Steve Phillips was also the man who signed Jose Reyes, Gomez, and Gotay, and drafted David Wright.
2. Harold Reynolds was fired from Baseball Tonight for sexual misconduct.
Put another way, Melky has an OPS+ of 104 this year and plays awesome D. Curtis Granderson had a lower OPS+ last year and plays about equivalent defense. Would it have made sense for the Tigers to have traded him last year for pen help if they needed it? No way, he is too much of a contributor. And he was 3 years older than Melky is now.
Who cares about Larry and his hatred of juicers?
We get the point Larry. Move on.
Ed W,
Phillips hates the Yankees and is one of the worst former GMs ever. After 2000, he made the Mets a joke.
So yes, you’re 100% correct on Melky IMHO, and Phillips can stick with his OF of Burnitz, Cedeno, and Jay Payton.
What articles are you guys reading that says Dotel to the Braves?
I don’t see it on ESPN, MLB, etc.com.
Is it on TV. Just curious. Scheurholz is busy.
Is Bruney still alive?
Steve Phillips didn’t sign Gotay. Omar did last year.
Steve Phillips is also the guy that makes John Kruk look smart. Very hard to do…
I cannot see how Torre messes with success. That means Melky in CF. His defense has been extraordinary.
Its a good problem to have. Having a deeper bench. You can get guys more rest and have more interchangable parts.
I think you will see Giambi playing 1b instead of strict DH.
When Damon is hitting and getting on and working counts he is way too important to be sitting.
lol migames!
Loren,
Done deal.
Does anyone know why we gave up Dotel after spending so much to rehab him last year? I know he didnt pitch great last summer, but jeez…it hurts to see people clamoring for him now.
Who did we get for him?
Reynolds got hosed by ESPN.
Dusty Baker, Kruk, Phillips, Eduardo Perez
Was that someones idea of a joke?
Comments like that are why Phillips will remain as a controversial voice of Baseball Tonight. Not because he adds substance but because he gets people on blogs ranting that he is an idiot.
Face it, they guy despises the NY Yankees and all that is associated with them because they constantly punk’d him while he was ruining the Mets.
Next time he speaks, just imagine him holding a pig upside down and walking it across the ceiling like Homer Simpson going ” Spider-pig, Spider-pig, does anything he wants to”
WMP, Dotel was a free agent. we only signed him 1 year…
Daniels and Texas are out of their minds if they don’t take 2 quality pitching prospects for Gagne. They won’t get a better deal from anyone else and its better than draft picks for them.
No wonder they’re gun shy. I’d be to if I traded Chris Young, Soriano, Adrian Gonzalez, Francisco Cordero and got back nothing.
Larry,
here is the link:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
Phillies grabbed Kyle Lohse.
it’s sad that Lohse is probably the best starter out there right now.
mlbtraderumors.com is the best sight for news, that’s where I heard about Dotel. Other sites I check regularly are SI.Com and Rotoworld, both are reporting it.
Sorry to hear about Bill Walsh, he earned the title offensive genius and was a real winner. It’s a shame.
Mets just got Castillo from Minn.
Minny throwing up the white flag.
“Rosenthal’s Dotel Trade”:http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7074020
I wouldnt call Castillo a difference maker.
The only difference maker out there is Gagne.
i can’t believe there are yankee fans who would trade Melky for 35 innings of Gagne.
Pepper Brooks,
THANKS! I appreciate it.
Yes, very sad about Mr. Walsh. He was a legend.
Hmmm,
The reason everybody is ready to trade Melky for Gagne, is because are bullpen is in shambles and unfortuantly Giambi is coming back and we have 4 outfielders. Someone has to sit on the bench and Melky is the weakest bat.
hmmmmmm
i can’t believe there are yankee fans that ask for a curtain call anytime a yankee hits a homerun.
We can pick our fellow fans.
Dan Graziano is reporting that the yankee’s supposed interest in Gagne is overstated:
“Reports of the Yankees’ lingering involvement in talks for Mark Teixeira and Eric Gagne appeared to be exaggerated. Yankees GM Brian Cashman is adamant about not trading top prospects Joba Chamberlain and Phil Hughes (both of whom appear headed for the major league team, perhaps this week), and without at least one of them, he has no shot at Teixeira. And in return for Gagne, the Rangers asked for outfielder Melky Cabrera, whom Cashman also doesn’t want to trade.
So as of last night, it appeared the Yankees were content to call up Chamberlain for the late-inning relief role and spend the next two days fishing around for a bench player or two unless something unforeseen falls into their laps between now and then.”
http://www.nj.com/sports/ledge.....038;coll=1
The piece I read said Texas asked for Melky in return for Gagne and Cashman said no, he wasn’t going to trade Melky for Gagne. I don’t think that means he never, ever trades Melky — Melky’s very good and I love him and I hope he’s here forever, but he’s the kind of player that should be able to get you back something (in a package) more than a rental, which Gagne definitely is.
The bottom line, I guess, is that if Gagne said he would go to the Yankees, if an agreement on players is reached, Gagne will have to go to the Yankees. He has said he wants to close, but if the contract said yankees, okay, then, that’s that, right? If he’s a professional and he cares about where he goes next year, he’ll probably give 100% of whatever it is he has to give. What I question is how much does he really have to give. I am concerned about a very untimely injury. And if I’m not mistaken, Gagne is another Farnsworth in that he doesn’t, or can’t and doesn’t like to, pitch on consecutive days and I don’t know if he pitches multiple innings.
If Gagne is 80% of what Gagne used to be, and what Cashman gives up is inconsequential, then why not? But otherwise, you have to question a deal.
And Andy — not everyone is dying to pitch in NY, and in case you haven’t noticed, the Yankees, (much as I am hoping) are not a lock for the playoffs this year.
“Someone has to sit on the bench and Melky is the weakest bat.”
OPS+
Melky – 104
Damon – 88
Abreu – 103
even if Melky has to sit the bench, the yankees control his rights for another FOUR seasons. you don’t trade that for a 9 week rental of a reliever.
Doreen, I’ve heard the same thing about Gagne – he doesn’t do consecutive games, doesn’t do multiple innings. Really annoying, esp. when compared to Mariano, and even Viz, Proctor, Meyers who have said they’ll pitch whenever they get the ball. If the price is right, sure, I’d like to have him. Along with Mo, and the way Viz is pitching lately, the game could be over for the other team after 6.
I’d rather have Otsuka but Horne + Mid Level prospect for Gange would be fine.
I hope the injury bug doesn’t catch him though…
Bruney will still be on this team. If Gagne is acquired you have to think that Proctor and Farns will be gone one way or another. chamberlain will take one’s spot and Gagne would take the other.
I wouldnt give up Melky either. Joba and Ohlendorf can hopefully help the pen and losing Melky would really mess with the lineup.
I wouldnt entirely trust the rumours site either though. It said the Red Sox are close to getting Dye for Wily Mo Pena and a minor league pitcher not named Lester or Bucholz. Maybe if it is Gabbard, but I think Chicago can do better for Dye. Surely someone will offer them a ligit player. The Red Sox have been trying to dump Wily Mo all month. I just cant see it. Chicago would rather get the draft picks.
Peter, there’s no way they trade Horne “and a prospect or two” for Gagne. If anything, Texas should be dealing Gagne “and a prospect or two” for Horne. That’s a bit hyperbolic, but Horne is very solid.
I think Otsuka is on the DL.
Otsuka is on the DL. Elbow, I think.
From what I’ve read about him, I wouldn’t do Horne for Gagne, either.
I was just curious why the Red Sox are not on the list of teams to which Gagne could be traded without his prior approval. Of course he could change his mind at any time, but I’m just curious what his original reasoning was on that.
Martin,
Horne is solid but nothing special.
Gange is still considered a premier relief pitcher/closer. Hughes, Tabata, and Kennedy are not going anywhere. Everything else should be for sale. That’s the beauty of stock piling prospects. Our minors are full with pitchers as is, somebody will replace Horne readily.
Horne for Gange is a no brainer.
Chicago Dave – How bout you back up your opinions. You make these blanket statements yet say nothing to back those opinions up.
How bout a little insight pal?
Has Farnsworth finally wrote his ticket out of town with yesterday’s antics? I can only hope.
Global Warming
Saying Horne for Gagne is a no-brainer is uneducated.
Look at the stats and the history. Horne is going to be a solid ML starter. There’s absolutely no question. He is projected to be a #2 and at worse a #3.
Buster Olney is saying that the Betemit-Proctor deal is still in the works.
1 nice season in AA Trenton and he’s already projected to a #2 starter. Right so with Chamberlain, Kennedy, and Hughes all ranked higher than Horne, do you really think there is room for him.
Sadly nice stats don’t equate into automatic major league success. If that was the case you would have alot more major league quality pitching coming out of the minors.
Horne is a nice pitcher. #3 Ceiling who will more likely fall to 4 or 5. If he’s not expendable, who is?
It’s one thing to be protective of prospects, another to overrate them as a homer.
Stop sniffing the glue. Why would Texas add a prospect or two with Gagne for a AA pitcher?? Let’s see – Gagne is an injury risk BUT when healthy – he’s one of the best late inning guys. Horne COULD turn into a top end of the rotation guy but he hasn’t thrown a pitch in the majors. Let’s pause before we annoint him as the second coming.
For the record – Edwin Jackson was one of the best pitching prospects in baseball one time (with LA). Look up his ERA with Tampa Bay.
Eric Milton was once the crown jewel of the Yankees system (see also Claussen, Brandon)
Darren Dreifort, Mark Prior, Kris Benson, Todd Van Poppel (the kiddies won’t remember him)… not all the guys pan out. The Yanks have Joba, Wang, Hughes, and Kennedy in the fold.
Plus some other arms who can be convereted to the pen.
Also give the Yanks credit for who they give up… a brief history…
1995 – Four guys who flaked for David Cone
1996 – Matt Drews (at the time a HUGE PROSPECT who burned out) brought in Cecil Fielder
1997 – Ruben Rivera (considered one of baseball’s premier prospects at the time) for Homer Bush and Hideki Irabu
1998 – Brian Buchannan, Cristian Guzman, Eric Milton for Knoblauch (Yanks get the leadoff hitter they needed for a future 4th OF, weak hitting SS, and highly touted pitcher who hasn’t touched his potential save for a no-hitter)
1998 – Ed Yarnall for Mike Lowell (this one backfired, but the trade was made when they resigned Brosius – so you can’t complain
2000 – bunch of trades here – Justice for Westbrook/Ledee. Ledee hasn’t been a star… and Jake has had one good season but he’s a #4 starter
Vazquez for Nick Johnson? One’s gone downhill, the other can’t stay healthy.
Soriano for Arod? Cmon…
Wily Mo Pena/Drew Henson for Denny Neagle in ’00 – Neagle helped them reach the WS (pitched bad down the stretch but the Yanks didn’t mortgage much
Dioner Navarro (hitting .200 right now), Brad Halsey, and Randy Choate for Randy Johnson – Yanks gave up nothing!
The point is the Yankees are pretty good at evaluating their own talent. They refused to trade Sori until they could get Arod. They held on to Jeter, Posada, Bernie, Pettitte, Rivera.
They promoted Wang and Cano for a reason. Melky too.
Granted Cash’s record with FA’s hasn’t been great lately… but in trades – he’s done well….
oh yea four nobodies for Abreu last year – including 1st round pick CJ Henry who is doing so bad at baseball – he may go to Kansas U to play BASKETBALLL FOR BILL SELF!!
Where would Betemit play, first base???
Command and injuries will limit Horne. That’s just my opinion, you watch.
rumor is that the Red Sox got gagne. i have no source though.
sounds like the rangers asked for melky and cashman said no. i will go on record and say that was the right call. feel free to second guess it at the end of the season.
Global Warming,
So are you saying that Alan Horne wouldn’t be a #1 or #2 prospect in most minor league systems?
Just because the Yankees have a ridiculous amount of pitching talent in the minors doesn’t mean you should short sell on a rental. White, Marquez, Jones. Those guys are expendable for a rental. Not a chance Horne drops to a #5.
hmmm,
If you say “rumor has it” but have “no source,” is it safe to say that you invented the Gagne to the Sox deal?
HMM The Red Soxs are on the list of teams he can’t be traded too. So why would he go there?
Global,
Horne seems to have great command this year. They say command is the last thing to come back after TJ surgery, so it is not surprising it took Horne so long to regain his it. I am not too worried about injuries, as his elbow should be stronger after TJ surgery.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the teams that Gagne put on his no trade lists were teams that had question marks at closer, so if he’s traded to them and they expect him to close, he expects to be paid like a closer, thus all the financial incentives/escalators.
The teams on the trade list he can be traded to all have well entrenched closers or are small market low budget teams who would not want his salary, so in theory, they would not have been looking to deal for Gagne. It was basically Texas giving him the no trade clause/leverage he was seeking at the time of the deal.
The reason why the Red Sox are on the no trade list is because at the time of his contract, Papelbon was still a starter and had not yet returned to close. The Red Sox had been looking at Gagne as a free agent to sign until Texas gave him this sweetheart deal.
I’d be concerned if he came to the Yanks only because I think they were on the list he can be traded to because him (and Boras) didn’t think the Yankees (or Mets for that matter) would ever deal for him since he’s considered a closer and not a set up man.
Has anyone heard if Gagne has stated he has no problems setting up an established closer?
I have a feeling he might.
OK, so Yankees fans will give up Alan Horne for Eric Gagne. Great. But these same fans want Chamberlain up, too. Someone please explain to me when Chamberlain would pitch, if Gagne is on board pitching the eighth.
The seventh? That’s Proctor time, and Viz has earned the manager’s “trust.” Long relief? Isn’t that a waste, considering Karstens is almost ready and better-suited for it?
Hmmm – One of the more adult comments here. At least you stated that you have no source, and you invite second guessers. I respect that.
“If you say “rumor has itâ€? but have “no source,â€? is it safe to say that you invented the Gagne to the Sox deal?”
i didn’t invent it.
looks like it is a fake rumor though.
some yahoo posted it on SoSH and it got carried all over the internet. LOL, i fell for it.
apologies.
Joe,
Ya, supposedly he has less of a desire to set up and this would be an issue if the team to which Texas wants to trade him is not on his list of teams that he cannot veto the deal.
A very interesting article regarding Gagne’s ability to pitch consecutive games/days. Surprised me. I wish he’d done it a week ago instead of a couple of days ago so it could really be assessed that he suffered no problem doing this.
The article this years also states that the 1st stint on the DL out of spring training was to give him extra time to get ready and the second time and nothing to do with his prior elbow or back surgeries.
“Gagne Store”:http://cbs11tv.com/topstories/.....02528.html
Joe L,
I agree completely, I stated this earlier today. It’s obvious why he didn’t put the Yanks on the no-trade list, he never figured we would be interested.
I also would not give up Melky for Gagne. Horne is another story.
“some yahoo posted it on SoSH and it got carried all over the internet. LOL, i fell for it.”
>
That’s “Story” not “Store.”
I still question whether the Yankees should be involved with any more pitchers with a history of back surgery, but I guess if the price is right, he could be worth the risk.
Gagne began the season on the DL because he was continuing to rehab and wasn’t ready, then he went on the DL due to a hipflexor strain, I believe.
Haha Doreen. I was gonna say, why bother trading with texas when we can just go to The Gagne Store…
A seoond article I just read, from July 20th, states that Gagne wants to stay with the Rangers. I’m thinking the Rangers are not going to lower their price. If the Yankees really, really want Gagne, they’re going to have to give up more than he may ultimately be worth to them. The Rangers have no reason to give him up, if Gagne wants to stay. Teixeira was a different story, I believe.
Yeah, Saucy, that would have been a lot more convenient, no?
Throughout this season people have excoriated both damon giambi because they are breaking down and under performing.
Making a run a Gagne is a reasonable move, but one that carries significant risk because he has an extensive history of injuries.
Down the stretch the Yankees will need him to pitch not only effectively but often.
Anyone who wants gagne (especially gagne for horne) remember this – no complaining if he gets injured a month from now or if he refuses to take the ball on consecutive days or complains of a tired arm, etc.
He’s a free agent to be – one of him major priorities will be maintaining his value in the off season so he can sign for top dollar as a closer.
It’s unlikely he’ll lay it out on the line for the team like a Proctor, especially with his agent whispering in his ear.
If you want Gagne. Fine. But if you want him you take him with the strings that come along with him.
Right now you can’t predict how those issues are going to play out.
He’s a terrific pitcher and a huge upgrade but he comes with definite strings.
CB,
The only crappy part of trading for Gagne is who his agent happens to be.
One year contract, obviously hits the FA market, then the Yankee front office has to talk to and/or stare at Boras’s ugly grill for the sake of two players (A-Rod and Gagne) instead of one.
He could help out a lot though.
The question in the back of my mind remains: Will the Yankees even make the playoffs?
It seems like they are in a much better position to do so than they were at one point, but they still have a ways to go.
Yeah, I don’t see it happening for the Yankees.
There’s a lot of red flags here.
One is the health issue. The other is the attitude — will he accept setting up Mo for the remainder of the season or does he (and Boras) think this will hurt his free agent value, not to mention present day salary incentives he won’t earn setting up Mo in NY?
I don’t think it’s simply trade for the player and go for the gold. I think there are some delicate issues to be worked out before anyone deals for Gagne, not to mention the prohibitive cost that comes with a pitcher who had his pitching arm basically rebuilt. How can any GM feel strong giving up anything of value for him?
I’m not saying I wouldn’t want him in our pen for a AA pitcher, but I think some of the things we hate about Farnsworth (the durability) are also issues here.
Still, we need an 8th inning stopper and we need one ASAP. Considering what else is out there (Al Reyes?), I’m not sure you can pass us the chance you take by acquring Gagne.
However, Melky is off limits in this deal. You can have minor leaguers or Shelley Duncan or something, but you’re not getting our CF for a guy who is held together by a rubber band and some glue.
Is he effective? Hell yes. Is he less of sure thing than most players because of the injury history? You better believe it.
Just got off the Golf Course, and the local sports radio people are saying that Coletti has no use for Farnsworth…They’re more interested in Proctor and change for Betemit…..The Farns may very well find his sorry ass pitching in Coors Field by tomorrow….
Gagne is not a player who you acquire in a vacuum. That’s all I’m saying.
And if you want him you need to accept the fact that he comes encumbered with issues – on field issues, health issues, possible attitude issues and agent issues.
In a free agent year, Scott Boras is always part of the equations. Is that a reason not to get Gagne? Not necessarily. Is it a concrete factor? Yes.
Remember, Gagne isn’t only a free agent. Injuries have already cost him a good chunk of change. He’s 31 has a history of injuries – this will be his last chance to sign a big money contract.
He might accept setting up Mo but I can’t see him being happy about it hurting his stats and losing out on those incentives in his contract. Especially in his last big money free agent year.
Again, he’s an upgrade. There’s no doubt. But he’ll cost talent to get and he comes with strings.
And if you want him you have to accept those strings without complaining and second guessing afterwards
“Second Gagne StorY”:http://cbs11tv.com/sports/loca.....61306.html
Personally (and I know I’m about the 400th poster to say this), I’m not sold on Gagne. If he ends up here, and pitches well, fine with me, but consider these factors:
- Baseballanalysts.com ran a search for top pitching prospects in the minors, using the following criteria:
K/9 > 9.0
K/BB > 3.0
HR/9
I just happened upon Michael Kay’s ESPN 1050AM show in NYC and I hear the voice of Mariano Rivera. It turns out Kay’s show is broadcasting live from Mariano’s restaurant, Mo’s Grill, in New Rochelle. I caught about the last 15 minutes of the interview with Mo. I think he’s said this before, but he said Edgar Martinez is the toughest hitter he’s had to face. He also mentioned the team is #1 in OBP, which I didn’t know. As always, he praised the team and the organization, said he loves the game, sometimes hard to realize it’s also a business, would not engage in guessing about his future beyond this season. Of course he’s never been as coy about that as he most players would and should be.
Sorry, my last post was cut after about one third of it, don’t really feel like rewriting…
points were: Horne is numbers-wise one of the best minor league prospects this year.
Melky is NOT our weakest bat in the outfield as someone suggested, and he’s only 22. I wouldn’t want a team that can have a simultaneous 36th bday party, everyone invited! soon.
His OPS+ is actually about 30 points higher than that of guys like Abreu, Damon, and Torii Hunter at that age. Not to mention his defense….
Is the need for a young catcher that pressing as some say? Posada hasn’t slowed down yet, maybe you only need one free agent signing to fill the void between Jorge and our top catching prospect…
Oh yeah, and I also asked in my non-existent post if someone knew how the guys at baseballanalysts.com extract their pitching charts from mlb.com?
Betemet or Johnson
If we had to give up Proctor for one of these guys who
would you take?
Betemet has played 2nd,ss and 3b this year.
Johnson 1b
The only position player the Yankees will consider in a deal is Wilson Betemit. All other moves will be bullpen related. Farnsworth has thrown his last pitch for the Yankees. Cashman will get a Gagne deal done. With Hughes, Karstens, and Chamberlain arriving soon, Gagne will be the correct fit in the bullpen. Melky is going nowhere. Almost any pitcher in the Yankee farm system not named Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, Horne, and Betances can be talked about in a deal. Clippard and DeSalvo should pack suitcases for a quick departure
Global Warming and Al,
Global Warming. You’re reading old scouting reports from defunct ESPN websites. For example, refresh your browser and look up his good K/BB and decent WHIP. His command (as one would obviously expect) has improved since those Gator scouting reports. Wheelan is an example of command issues.
And Al, obviously talent can be evaluated at the AA level. How many AAA starts did Hughes make before he was annointed the second coming?? Hint: That’s a rhetorical question. I didn’t say Horne was the “second coming,” I said he was very solid. Just because we have a barn of young studs, doesn’t mean you just deal a very solid prospect willy nilly. Thank God you’re not the Yankee GM.
If its Betemet,does he replace Phillips or Cairo?
If its betemit, he better be a utility bench guy, not a starter.
Say adios to Senoir Cairo…….
No, Cairo has done very well by the Yankees this season.
So that leaves Andy Phillips then…..Even if they were not to make a trade, when Giambi returns someone goes…..
Shelley Duncan.
Good call…Torre isn’t playing him, so we’ll never know if he is indeed the power hitting RH the team needs….Betemit does have some pop…He’s a good player, I’ve watched quite a bit being I live in Southern Cal….
Martin – Read the whole post. How many times have you seen Alan Horne pitch? My point was – organizationally I trust they know what they’re doing when it comes to evaluating talent. If they keep him – it means there’s something there. If they trade him – he could be another Yankee “overhyped” prospect.
The Yankees do overhype their prospects. They have a good track record of who to keep and who to deal. That’s the point I was trying to make. And you’re living in a dream world if you think Texas would take Horne straight up for Gagne. Just not how it works. Try following baseball pal
Al,
So how many AAA starts did Hughes make before he was the “second coming”? 0.
Did I say Horne was the second coming? No.
Did I say Gagne for Horne straight up? No. A synonym for the word “hyperbolic” (which I used in my previous post) is exaggeration. That would suggest I do not believe that kind of trade would be plausible. My point was to think twice before dealing what the organization deems very solid prospects like they’re baseball cards. Try buying a thesaurus pal.
Where have you been the past 10 years. You say “they have a good track record of who to keep”! FYI: That’s been a problem; they haven’t kept anyone until the philosophy changed with Hughes.
And name ONE organization that is not guilty of overhyping their prospects?! No, wait, you’re right. I’m sure GMs are quick with the: “Nah, you don’t want him, he’s not very good. In fact, we really don’t have anyone you may want in a trade.” Your baseball acumen is off the charts. Is it because you follow so much baseball? Pal? You should apply for the traveling secretary job that just opened up.
Most of you are dumb and aren’t really paying attention to what is what.
Gagne for Horne is a great move. Yankees lack relievers yet are overstocked with potential starters.
Gagne is not a 1 month rental as there are still 2 months left, plus the playoffs if they make it.
Gagne can be re-signed. If not, then the Yankees get 2 1st round picks. TWO 1st ROUND PICKS in the draft. NOT ONE, but TWO.
So you lose one pitching prospect, get a great setup/closer guy in the bullpen and 2 first round picks to make up for the one you lost who hasn’t really proven much other than being able to pitch in the low minors.
I’ll take that deal as the reward is greater than what is given up.
Marius,
“Most of you are dumb” That is fantastic insight.
It’s ironic you say people don’t know “what is what,” because actually, the Yankees would get ONE 1st round pick and ONE sandwich pick (which I guess you didn’t know is technically a 1st round pick). But that is a “dumb” sticking point.
By your logic, Chamberlain hasn’t pitched above the “low minors,” so I suppose we should trade him for a Type A player so we can get 2 draft picks back. (You may have to Google “Type A player” to know what I mean.)
Guess what, being overstocked by starters is a good thing, i.e. some starters turned relievers are: Mariano, GAGNE, Papelbon, etc. Because you can do exactly what the Yankees are doing now with Ohlendorf and Chamberlain.
Go to your time-out corner; you seem to be out of your league.
According to a hopefully reliable MVN source, the Yankees will be acquiring Texas setup man Eric Gagné in exchange for AA pitchers Jeff Marquez, Tyler Clippard, and a 3rd “C-Level� prospect (maybe Brett Gardner?). I’ll update you when I find official confirmation, but as for now, one has to be happy that Ian Kennedy and Alan Horne are still Yankees.
Marquez and Clippard will be missed, but the Yankees have enough pitching depth to replace them, and they may never have gotten the chance to get spots in the rotation. A setup duo of Gagne and Chamberlain combined with Mo slamming the door should make a lot of 6-inning games for the major league club, and should be an intimidating force down the stretch.
Update 10:25 PM: As I commented below, neither Alan Horne or Jeff Marquez are listed as members of the Trenton Thunder if you search them on milb.com (they have no team name next to their name on the search page, before you clidk on the name), while Clippard, Karstens, etc are still listed on their correct teams. I’m hoping it’s either a mistake or a promotion, but if they are both traded for Gagné, they’d better get something else back.
http://mvn.com/milb-yankees/
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God bless Baseball
we have chris basak (sp?) on our roster right now. IMO, he would be sent down if we aquire Betemit. could be Duncan though, but Betemit is basically Basak with more of a bat.