Today in The Journal News
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Aug 14, 2007 
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Through all the trouble last night, there was a feeling the Yankees would find a way to beat the Orioles. Rod Boone has the story.
Jeff Karstens gets a chance to start tonight. This notebook also has news on Jorge Posada, Joba Chamberlain, Melky Cabrera and Alex Rodriguez.
In case you missed it, the Yankees honored Alex Rodriguez before the game last night and it was a smooth bit of recruiting. They gave him some original Peter Marx art work, a nod to his personal tastes as A-Rod is an art collector. They had Derek Jeter present him with a silver tray, another message of acceptance. Finally, they included his wife and daughter in the ceremony.
It’ll come down to the Benjamins. But the Yankees are paving the road for A-Rod to return next season and beyond.
Pete, interesting note about A-Rod. Let’s hope the recruiting has begun and it works! I also noticed A-Rod was one of the first ones onto the field last night congratulating after he crushed that ball passed Chad Bradford to win the game.
yeh, and then they dropped the 500 bat thing on the ground in what could only be described as the “smoothest unveiling”. but it was nice i couldn’t help but smile at jeter going out there with the tray as if it was a magazine and i dunno just the little quirkiness (awkward hugs, looking kinda aimlessly), it was nice. i hope a rod finds it in himself to stay, not just cuz of this “recruiting” but because he genuinely looks more at peace with himself and his teammates. yo peter, sleep much or what?
do you think jeter would ever offer to make a-rod co-captain? could be huge for a-rod to get that kind of honor.
Pete,
Any news about the Igawa to San Diego deal? I heard the Yanks have until some time today to make a deal.
i also thought that it was clever recruiting. A-rod seemed to have a genuine smile on his face. hopefully he feels at home as a Yankee. this teams *NEEDS* him for the next 8 years!
It’s not up to Jeter to make anyone co-anything. That’s all up to the Boss. And the way that man seems to be deteriorating, who knows if he’ll make another captain again.
As much as I’m not the biggest Mrs. Rod fan for her bad PR moment, his daughter is quite possibly one of the cutest little girls I’ve ever seen.
Here’s a dangerous idea. A lot would have to go wrong (or right) but Joba could debut as the set up guy next year on the way to succeeding Mo (Viz to Joba to Mo, or any combination thereof).
I know Chamberlain is slated to be a starter, and I know all the arguments about giving them more innings per year as a starter than a reliever and thus influencing more games that way, but he won’t be throwing 99 or 100 as a starter because he has to pace himself.
Joba’s got filthy stuff and seems to have the head to handle himself and the pressure. It’s so hard to find that special pitcher to close or set up – - just look at Farns. He also throws 100 mph but can’t throw strikes. I know there could be gaping holes in the rotation next year, but with the other young arms on the way and assuming Wang, Pettitte, Mussina and Hughes are there next year, maybe Cash pursues a trade or FA starter instead of putting Joba in the rotation. Like Smoltz, you could always put Joba back in the rotation a year later if that works better.
Finally, Sterling has to do better than “What a job by Joba!”
The Yankees should bring their “patient” bats to the game tonight. The O’s Daniel Cabrera can’t be accused of being a control pitcher. Nasty stuff but wild.
It was quite a ceremony before the game honoring A-Rod’s 500 mark – very Yankee-like. I laughed so hard when they unveiled that ugly bat sculpture thingy and it fell off the stand – LOL It sure looked like genuine good feelings between A-Rod and the Captain, even after the game when Alex gave Derek his props for that winning hit. You’re right Pete – it will come down to “show me the money” though. Today’s players gauge their prestige by the salaries they can command and certainly there isn’t another player who can meet the A-Rod standard. The Yanks will make sure he’s very well compensated!!
murphydog –
Your post is very interesting — especially, because yesterday I started thinking that with all the talk that Joba’s slated to be a starter, “what if he likes relief pitching and what if he wants to become a closer?”
And then, I get this morning’s Star Ledger and Dan Graziano has this article. I think you’ll like it.
“Star Ledger Article”:http://www.nj.com/columns/ledg.....038;coll=1
There is a recent quote from another team’s scout that “Joba was sitting at 97-98 for 7 innings”…..the kid is an animal
(long sigh) …steve phillips is on mike and mike and he did one of his patented “yankees have no pitching whatsoever” routine, it was detroit, mariners, red sox in the playoffs. he says our offense wont stay this good, i guess he hasn’t seen the bench or that a rod is not hitting like the beginning of the year this whole stretch.
lol, greenie said “he is out of his mind” just now when steve left. ima have to go ahead and agree with him on that one. i am sick of the yankees not getting any godamn respect and acting as if hughes, clemens, wang, mussina, pettite, chamberlain, rivera cant even win 3 games combined, i am tired of it. we brought it from 14 1/2 to 4. enough is enough. when clemens just started we were 3 under .500, i guess we got where we are now with magic and david blaine.
19 melkmannnn lets do it!
38disasters –
In my mind, it’s better if the Yankees remain the underdog. They stay a little under the radar and the winning is ever so much more satisfying. But I agree with you that it gets so tiresome to hear people say the Yankees just don’t have it. It’s like they get some sort of pleasure saying that.
man , was the art award a-rod got ugly or what ? the homeplate and silver tray were nice though .
Murph,
I like that idea. It would make next year’s rotation consist of: Wang, Moose, Pettitte, Hughes and Kennedy, with Roger ready to go in July.
Joba, Edwar, Vizcaino, perhaps David Robertson (my sleeper for the bullpen next year) and Mo. That leaves a couple of spots open.
The more you watch Joba, the more you can see how his demeanor, as well as his stuff, could be suited to the bullpen. Perhaps as Mo’s successor as the closer.
Either way, starting or relieving, how great is it to have a weapon like him in the organization.
Toughest thing to do in sports is to win AND reload at the same time. The Yankees are beginning to show (at least from the young pitching perspective) they are doing just that.
Its great to see.
I hate to say it, but the Yankees really made themselves look rather desperate last night with their “Look, we gave you a ceremony! Don’t opt out!” celebration.
If they’re so big on celebrating historic milestones, where was the ceremony for Roger’s 300th win?
This article is funny because it’s so pathetic; I especially like the quote that attributes Ortiz’s reduced productivity to eating too many pork chops.
http://www.boston.com/sports/b.....l_is_gone/
The truth is I’ve learned to find joy in other people’s misery since moving to Boston, which probably explains why I can’t get enough of Lindsey Lohan car crash stories. Of course I want the Yanks to win the division and WS, but just making the race this close has been enjoyable.
Steve Phillips needs to say things like that to stay relevant. He was to be one of the worst baseball people I’ve ever heard, he’s like Stern, just say something crazy and people will notice. I can’t stand him, and if he was any good at projecting talent, he’d still be a GM.
This team is starting to play like a team, with a nice bench, and players not caring what roles they’re in, just contributing to a win each night.
It makes you feel sort of bad for A-Rod. Rich as Croesus and he likes Peter Max.
Chris, I thought the paintings were okay — you have to like Peter Max’s work, though. His style is from the psychodelic 60′s.
The sculpture wasn’t all that. Funny when it fell, though.
He did this artwork for Topps and maybe this is why he was commissioned.
“Peter Max Topps Baseball Card poster”:http://www.petermax.com/store/....._book.html It’s not bad.
Oops, wrong link. Try this:
“Max Poster for Topps”:http://www.petermax.com/servle...../17114.jpg
The problem with Phillips argument is that he assumes the Mariners have pitching. They have Ramirez (over 7 ERA ) and Jeff Weaver (4-10) in their rotation. Sorry, that’s not good pitching.
They have a great bullpen, play very well at home, and have hit better than expected. However, he talks about them as if they are some type of uber-team, which they are not.
All I keep hearing from him is, “The Yankees won’t hit like this all year”. Well, from Late-June until now, they have.
Since the All Star Break, and they have faced some good pitchers (Kazmir, Shields, Carmona, Halladay, Marcum, Meche, Byrd, Guthrie, etc), they have still hit like crazy.
What’s lost is, they are pitching better. They are now 8-4 in their last 12 one and two run games. You don’t do that unless you are pitching better.
You mean to tell me a rested Clemens, rejuvenated Mussina, Chamberlain and Hughes, aren’t upgrades from Kei Igawa, Matt DeSalvo, Mike Myers and Brian Bruney?
Its a different team than it was in May. I don’t know how a guy as (supposedly) baseball astute as Phillips keeps missing that point. Maybe he just doesn’t want to see it and enjoys being an ESPN buffoon. I don’t know but, for a “baseball expert”, he is light on the “expert” side of things.
I am not saying the Yankees are shoe-ins for the playoffs. Its that to use the argument, “this can’t go on much longer”, which he is using, negates the fact they have the best record in baseball since May 30.
If they can be this good for 2 1/2 months, why is it impossible for them to be this good for another 6 weeks?
sorry , didnt mean to offend anybody about the artwork . it just didnt appeal to me .
man , farnsworth must be extremely angry the rookie took his job . too bad , farnsworthless . joba for the closer role for 2010 ?
donna, i remember an orange hummer clemens got for his 300th.
I love these people who are making next years bullpen right now. Like that ever works out.
I’m not offended, Chris. Taste in art is very personal. Although people may not like the particular art that the Yankees gave A-Rod, you have to admit that having artwork commissioned is a pretty neat thing to do. It’s not like you just go out to the store and pick it up.
Joba is a future starter. Not a closer.
Actually I think he got that hummer for his retirement.
As much as we rip on Farnsworth (deservedly so), they may end up needing him as the season winds down.
They are one effective arm short in the bullpen. If he can harness his stuff for 10 good innings from now until the end of the season, he could help win games.
I know it sounds nuts but, we know the stuff is there. The head isn’t. That’s the problem. Ten good outings changes everything.
Take tonight for example. Mo and Joba aren’t available. If Karstens can give them 6, Brower handles the 7th, they need Kyle to step up and give them a scoreless 8th. That enables them to get the ball to Vizcaino in the 9th.
It would be great if he can find a way to give them 10 good innings the rest of the season. It could make a big difference down the stretch.
The Mariners don’t have a great bullpen.
They have a great closer. There is a difference.
I figured the Yankees did some research into the type of art Alex likes. That art was too out there to just pick and give him.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=2019844
it says there for his 300th…
“HOUSTON — Roger Clemens’ orange Hummer — a present from the New York Yankees for his 300th win — was stolen and found Wednesday after the pitcher’s son drove it to school and left it unlocked, police said.”
steve phillips was a terrible g.m and even worse baseball analyst . take him for what he’s worth – nothin’
how’s that for mr negative ?
Can someone tell Jay Payton that no one gives a crap what he thinks.
http://trailfire.com/sportsinbox/marks/136979
He played there for 55 games and he is an expert on the soxs. That is laughable.
The Mariners have a great bullpen. From the left side, George Sherrill is nasty. Brandon Morrow is their Chamberlain and he has pitched very well of late.
They added John Parrish as another lefty in the ‘pen. Not great but, better than Villone.
Sean Green is like Jeff Nelson. Sidewinder and can get some big outs.
Putz has been excellent closing games this year.
That’s a very good bullpen.
If the Yankees had their bullpen all season, they have a 10 game lead in the division.
yeh well mr. nothin’ gives my jackass red sox friends ammunition to talk crap whenever i see them that i have to go ahead and debunk.
Cannot wait to see Karstens tonight. I went to 10 Yankees games last year and saw Wright three times, Small, Chacon (though that was the comeback against the Rangers), Karstens.
The one time I saw Wang it was against WAS and Zimmerman hit a walk-off against him because Chacon had emptied the bullpen the day before.
This year, I saw Igawa’s debut (redeemed by the walkoff GS) and, I think, Tyler Clippard. And I saw Mussina lose in Chicago.
This, more than the $10 beers, is the reason why I’ve stopped going to as many Yankees games.
Well, I got suckered in again tonight and I draw Jeff Karstens. Watch him pitch a four-hitter now that I’ve jinxed his failure.
I keep seeing Roger pitch games. It seems every game I go to is Clemens game. I’ve seen him pitch 3 times this year.
Is there a link to the video of Arod’s 500th celebration?
John Long Island:
“Joba is a future starter. Not a closer.”
Really? Ever hear of Paplebon and Smoltz?
For some reason my post keeps getting caught in spam. Maybe it doesn’t like the link I am attaching. Anyway if you go to the dailynews site there is an article about Jay Payton. He is saying the soxs wont collapse. I don’t know how he knows that since he only had a cup of coffee with the team. It is laughable.
yeh, you can find the video on the yankees main site, main page.
“They are now 8-4 in their last 12 one and two run games. You don’t do that unless you are pitching better. ”
This really has nothing to do with how well the pitching is doing. You could win a game 1-0 or win a game 11-10, and your pitching was only good in one of those games. Record in one run games is a stat that has a lot to do with luck.
Such as in the beginning of the season the Yanks were very unlucky while the Sox were very lucky in one run games. These numbers seem to even out over the course of the season.
I’m not saying the Yanks haven’t pitched well, just that one run games are not a good stat to determine how well a pitching staff is doing.
murphydog:
I was thinking the same thing about Joba last week after his second appearance. From all that has been said, Chamberlain’s future is as a starter, but with all the talent in the Yankee Organization right now its gotta be tempting to groom this kid as Mo’s successor.
Remember that the Sawx were adamant that Papelbon was going to be a starter too.
I just pray that this kid stays healthy…he’s got a fantastic future.
A few weeks ago I was able to watch Josh McAllister pitch for Staten Island, the Yanks short season “A” ball Team.
Although Betances is getting all the ink for them, McAllister has really looked great in the last Month.
He’s a big kid (6″ 5″‘/230) and tops out at 94 mph with a sharp breaking slider.
is “the sox wont collapse” thing in style because the espn disaster “bronx is burning” is on this year? so everyone is like “ok silly yankee fans cool off, its not the 70s”.
is it the new black?
Courtesy of Joba, Farnsworth has found his spot in the back end of the bullpen where he pitched himself to. Mop up assignments when a game is out of hand is now his role.
Because of his demeanor, there’s no place for him as a Yankee next year and Cashman will work a deal to get him and his attitude out of the Bronx.
I kept getting IGAWA games… it was very frustrating. But the yanks paid me back with Phil Hughes and Arod’s 500th!
Get ready to root for Farnsworth. He’s probably our long reliever tonight and with Karstens it’s a crap shoot what we are going to get.
I heard steve Phillips on M&M driving in today. I’m glad Greeny as least sees through his bias already. Gotta love Phillips logic, “the Yankees are winning because of great offense, but it’s going to slow down”. Maybe that’s true come playoff time but that will not prevent the Yankees from making the playoffs.
On Joba, it is so easy to envision him as Mo’s successor. We’ll see how that plays out. I think the thought was Humberto Sanchez might be the closer in waiting, but we do still have to see how he comes back from TJ surgery.
My dad and I were actually talking about Joba possibly taking Mo’s spot in the future. Would be nice to have someone in the set-up role for a year or two to make the transition away from Mo a little bit easier to take. It’s going to be a sad day when there is no more Mo, but might be a little easier to take with some Joba.
Who is this Josh McAllister? Is he top Yankee prospect Zach McAllister’s lesser-known little brother?
Regarding Papelbon…he has two good pitches. That’s why he’s good in the bullpen, probably much more so than he would be if he were starting. But Chamberlain has 4 average-to-excellent pitches that he throws for strikes. Why wouldn’t you want somebody like that in the rotation? I’ll take 180-200 dominant innings over 70-80 any day.
Yes, the Yankees have a lot of pitching in the Minors, but it is tough to find lights-out frontline starters like Joba Chamberlain is projected to be. Bullpen arms are much less difficult to come by, and until Mo falters completely, we still have many arms to gauge: Sanchez, Cox, Ohlendorf, Ramirez, Britton, Beam, Whelan, and Robertson only scratch the surface. I’m not saying any of them will be at Mo’s level, but you never know.
Swo -
But a closer on the order of Mo doesn’t come around often. It’s worth keeping a close eye on Joba for that purpose. Sometimes you find something you weren’t even looking for. The Yankees can’t lose either way, as long as he stays healthy, especially since they do have so many top pitching prospects, and especially especially if they plan on going after Santana.
I was at the game last night and Joba’s stuff was really electric. Everyone was going crazy for him, standing up when there was only one out, and chanting “Jo-Ba, Jo-Ba”. It was awesome.
When the O’s tied it up in the ninth, the scoreboard showed that Farnsworth was warming up in the pen and everyone booed. For a few minutes there I was really worried this one would get away. And it would have if this was the first half of the season, but this is a different team. They’re extremely fun to watch.
LathamJoe:
Cash said he wanted to get younger, cheaper, more athletic, and develop more budgetary flexibility. We currently, quietly have cheap, athletic Baby Bombers at 1st base, 2d base and CF, plus two important pitchers, Wang and Hughes, in the starting rotation. There are potentially two more starters knocking on the door next year, Chamberlain and Kennedy, plus more in the pipeline in case Joba becomes the set-up man or understudy closer. Let’s not forget that “Little Manny” Tabata is a year or two out. Who knows what wonders the draft will bring next, now that the Yankees are flexing their $ muscle to sign kids that drop with money over slot.
Can you remember a time when we could even allow ourselves to daydream things like using a homegrown kid to replace Mo? That would have been back at the birth of the Dynasty, when Mo replaced Wetteland, Posada replaced Girardi, Bernie took over in Center and Jetes became our starting SS, with Pettitte on the mound.
My only question is “Why did it take so long to return to what works?”
I thought the same thing last night. They were really laying it on extremely thick last night. And the way him and Jeter were interacting was great too. Both of them had huge smiles on their faces.
Also, as Pete already mentioned, Torre has done an excellent job managing the bench. Putting Betemit in to play 1B (who hit a 2 run hr), and then replacing Damon with Duncan and then Duncan with Giambi (who hit the double to move Melky to third in the 9th) got us the win. Torre may not handle a bullpen well, but he’s doing well with the bench.
I think we’ve also had pretty good pitching Steve. What a idiot this guy is. How does he have an analysists job? Who did he pay off?
Jeff, NJ
Yes – Brower and Farnsworth tonight…if they can get 5 IPs out of Karstens.
Kat:
Yes, Mo’s retirement will be a sad one. He is a class guy and has been my all-time favorite Yankee since the days of Mickey Mantle. Mo will retire before his physical skills diminish to the point that “The Mick’s” did, and like Mantle, will retire as a Yankee.
I’ll plan on seeing Mo’s induction in Cooperstown in about 7 years from now.
“Toughest thing to do in sports is to win AND reload at the same time. ”
sj44- didn’t get a chance to thank you yesterday for your detailed response about the yankees developing “a yankee way” that permeates the whole organization. after all of disagreement in the spring on how the team should proceed, it’s good to see how things have developed. pretty amazing.
one thing i hope they drill into players is that the real yankee way,that goes way back ,is being quietly emotionally tough. what giambi is doing is being emotionally tough. he’s has no idea about playing time yet he stays positive and thinks team.because of this he was ready to contribute last night. bruney on the other hand kicks over a chair on his way out the door. bruney is weak mentally. giambi is tough. the difference between the two needs to be pushed throughout the organization.
one of the reasons that a marginal player like phillips is likable is that he’s clearly emotionally tough. he can handle uncertainty with the best of them. handling uncertainty is one of the hardest thing to do in sports. this trait should be high on the list of what makes a yankee a yankee.
You turn starters into closers if a. the starter has no stamina in late innings or b. if they lose their fastball late in innings. Joba doesn’t fall under either. He’s a starter not a reliever. Besides why would the Yankees make him a potential closer when they have other candidates on the farm that can become that next closer?
I saw C-Rod and the two bouquets of flowers, but I never saw them actually presented.
If they were, the following is moot, but I assumed they didn’t want to introduce her – figuring she would get booed after the t-shirt episode.
I also thought the art work was UGLY. Is he the same guy that did Ali and the olympic athletes? I always liked those. Also thought they would at least capture his swing for the 500th.
Frankly, the Yankees don’t NEED the Sox to collapse at this point. If the Yankees can take 4 of 6 in head to head play, then that would leave 38 other games in which to make up 2 games. The Sox no longer have the luxury of needing a serious run of bad luck, major injuries, etc., in order to avoid winning the division, although all of those things could still happen.
As as for all the “analysts” who keep asserting that the Yankees can’t continue mashing the ball the entire rest of the season, I would like to know exactly how long they CAN continue to mash? Does it all end tonight? Does it go on for another week? Two weeks? A month? And who’s to say that when the bats cool off the pitching won’t get hot?
These commentators pronounced the Yankees dead weeks ago and they were wrong. They have no idea what is going to happen from here on in.
Woops, I meant Giambi hit a single, not a double.
“You turn starters into closers if a. the starter has no stamina in late innings or b. if they lose their fastball late in innings.”
Jonathon Papelbon doesn’t fit either of those scenarios.
Papelbon falls under “c. The only other closing option is Joel Piniero”
“Jonathon Papelbon doesn’t fit either of those scenarios.”
Papelbon is a short time fix, because they had no one else to fill that role. Just like they tried to slot him back in the starter role at the beginning of this year, he will be stretched out into a starter.
“I know it sounds nuts but, we know the stuff is there. The head isn’t.”
SJ, I’m not sure why you keep saying this. The guy doesn’t have ‘stuff’. Raw velocity doesn’t equal ‘stuff’. He is a career failure with maybe one decent year in the mix. If we have to rely on him down the stretch, this whole thing can implode. There is zero reason to expect him to turn it around.
Major league hitters will tell you that even a 98mph fastball with no movement looks like low 90s. This is what Farnsy gives us. Any contact and its out. I am not sure what evidence you are basing this long shot on. You seem as mesmerized by pure velocity as many managers do. Without movement or command, you have got nothing.
Farnsy needs to go down to the minors and try to develop a new approach or he will never be successful. Inserting him in a critical playoff stretch is NOT the answer. Its a crapshoot at best, something playoff teams don’t do.
We need to develop someone else quickly that can help in the post season, without which, our playoff hopes will be unlikely to succeed.
BJ
Paplebon was never the type of elite starting pitching prospect that Chamberlain is now.
Chamberlain has the stuff and mindset to become an Ace in the big leagues. Ace type pitchers are harder to find than very good closers.
Besides, K-Rod and Nathan could become available in 2009. And what about Gagne, he´s been great for the Yanks as of late!
Who else thought that the Yankees would present the 500th homerun ball to A-Rod? I thought for sure thats what would happen after the home plate.
Papelbon’s Minor League Stats
A+ 24 GS 2.64 ERA 10.62 K/9 1.08 WHIP
AA 14 GS 2.48 ERA 08.59 K/9 0.94 WHIP
AAA 7 GS 2.93 ERA 08.78 K/9 0.87 WHIP
We may have another arm in the pen by tonite, tomorrow at the latest.San Diego will take Igawa in trade.I hope!
Chamberlain should go into the rotation next year. you do not keep a talent like that to be the 8th inning guy no way…………………
Seattle does havea good pen but there team is not as good as the yanks.
as I ahve said 100 times the yanks need to call up either britton or edwar they need 1 more arm…..
Steve Phillips also said Melky is a 4th or 5th outfielder. Melky is not great but he is a good player and just turned 23…He can play and has no fear which is huge………
you know who else would make an awesome closer? Johan Santana. or Justin Verlander.
they are great pitchers, so they would have no problem getting 3 outs 4 times a week.
but you would never turn them into closers. b/c it’s wasteful.
Papelbon is closing b/c he was losing velocity after 3 innings in spring training. Joba is being clocked at 97 after 7 innings. just like Verlander.
he is not going to be a closer. it’s a huge waste.
and this is not a knock on Mo. Mo has excelled basically throwing 1 pitch (with a few wrinkles, cut fastball, 4 seam, 2 seam) for 10 years. but that repertoire wouldn’t translate as well to starting. you can’t be a starter and throw nothing but hard stuff for 7 innings.
if Joba can be a bonafide #1 starter, which it is starting to look like he can, it would stupid to make him the closer. the Yankees have a bunch of other relief arms on the farm that will hopefully produce the next closer.
after all, it’s not like Mo won’t be here for the next 2 years. so what, Joba is going to be a set-up man next year? or are you proposing that they let Mo go to another team?
id take melky over coco crisp. any.day.any.situation.
BJ,
Farnsworth has had more than one good year. His slider is his out pitch, which makes his fastball better.
His head problem, as I see it is, he doesn’t “pitch”, he “throws”.
He either falls in love with his fastball or slider, and overuses either pitch he is “in love” with at a given moment, and that leads to his problems.
I am not saying they have to rely on him. But, they do need 10 solid innings out of somebody in the ‘pen, other than Vizcaino and Joba down the stretch.
Farnsworth has the ability to do that. The head? Not so sure about that.
Randy I,
Anytime. Pete asked me awhile back to do a piece on the Yankee Farm System. I am going to try and knock one out before work gets too busy for me in the next couple of weeks.
Thinking of doing something highlighting the better prospects at each level at the end of the minor league season.
doesnt look like our friend kei igawa is going anywhere..
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=2973955
Hey Pete: couple for your ipod – your taste is so eclectic, it’s hard to peg, but here’s some of what I’ve put on the past month:
•Gomez – See the World
•Death Cab for Cutie – I will follow you into the dark
•Plain White T’s – Hey there Dellilah
•The Call: Let the Day Begin
•Bobby Darin – Mack the Knife
•Neil Young – Long May you Run
Podcasts:
•Elvis Costello – The First Ten Years, Podcast Series (itunes)
•NPR – It’s all politics
“id take melky over coco crisp. any.day.any.situation.”
I’d take Coco in the field and on the basepaths.
\Note: Melky’s arm is better, Coco is a better fielder
“Paplebon was never the type of elite starting pitching prospect that Chamberlain is now.”
papelbon was 24-25 years old by the time he made it to the majors. at the age hughes first arrived papelbon was probably in his junior year of college.
that said, papelbon is obviouly a talented pitcher who had a historic rookie year. chamberlain and hughes are on a whole different trajectory because of the age difference on when they were brought up to the majors. i think the red sox slow their young prospects down so they get their 6 years cheaper service time in at an older more productive age.they did this with youkillis too.
We should all start supporting and cheering Farnsworth because he is going to be out there and be given chances.
I think some cheers instead of boo’s would help him.
And don’t we all need/want him to succeed because it helps the team?
What does boo’ing him accomplish?
Just heard on the radio the Scooter died
“Papelbon’s Minor League Stats
A+ 24 GS 2.64 ERA 10.62 K/9 1.08 WHIP
AA 14 GS 2.48 ERA 08.59 K/9 0.94 WHIP
AAA 7 GS 2.93 ERA 08.78 K/9 0.87 WHIP”
contrary to the PR machine’s statements otherwise this spring, he is closing b/c of his shoulder.
and the point that they were TRYING to move him into the rotation illustrates exactly why the Yankees will do the same with Chamberlain. b/c a great starter is much more valuable than a great closer. Boston, being a smart organization, realizes this.
the problem was Papelbon’s shoulder wasn’t going to let him throw 200+ innings this year.
The Scooter died today. Very, very sad day. One of my all-time favorite Yankees.
I am starting to tear up at my desk.
I’m soooo sad.
god bless the scooter and cora…i listened to him as a child and this is incredibly sad news.
Cox,Whelan,Robertson,Sanchez,Melencon all closer options. Cashman knows this and is most likely the reason why he has said Joba going to be kept a starter.
sj44-
how about also doing some highlighting of the coaching prospects too. good coaches are worth their weight in gold. looking forward to seeing your report.
Hmm,
Agreed. The only caveat is health. If Chamberlain’s arm issues re-surface, I could see him staying in the bullpen.
However, there is no evidence that’s happening so, its more likely he ends up in the rotation.
Isn’t the deadline for trading Iggy at 2pm today?? Since there hasn’t been much of an update, I guess he’s staying. Let’s go Karstens!!
Jeff Pearlman to Joe Torre: “Mr. Torre, I owe you an apology.”
“Link to Article”:http://sports.espn.go.com/espn.....ortCat=mlb
Papelbon has always been a top prospect. With grade A stuff.
You can bet Boston wants him as a starter in the future to pair with Beckett and Dice K and eventually Buchholz.
Coco Crisp cannot hold Melky’s jock in the field.
A couple of spectactular catches does not make one a great fielder. Theo Epstein would give up Crisp for Melky without blinking.
Here’s a tidbit of said article:
“To get this out of the way (not that I have any reason to think he’s reading my work): I would like to apologize to Joe Torre for a completely wrongheaded column that never should have been written. It was dumb. Beyond dumb. Looking back, I’m not quite sure what I was thinking, except that the Yankees — 10½ games behind Boston at the time — seemed to be sluggish, indifferent and in need of new guidance. Boy, was I off.”
You don’t put #1 ace type starters in the bullpen.
You can find a closer. You cannot find ace level pitchers.
“Just heard on the radio the Scooter died ”
really? wow. i am floored.
wow.
terrible, terrible news.
love rizzuto.
ESPN is reporting the trade for Kei is dead.
“Link to Article”:http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=2973955
Randy I,
Sure, no problem.
Can we not throw Farnsworth under the bus just yet?
Before this season is over he is going to have to play an important part.
He has the stuff to do it.
Don’t be so quick to declare people dead. You see what you fools tried to do to A-Rod last yr? How did that work out?
Why would the Yanks trade Igawa now?
Why not wait til the off season when 20 other teams can bid on a starter making 5 mil a yr?
Which is beyond cheap.
Many fond memories of the Scooter.
I will miss his unique broadcasting style.
As a kid, I can recall listening to him, Mel Allen and Red Barber on radion , when that was the only source for a Yankee game. Later on Phil with Frank Messer, and the fun times listening to Scooter and Bill White playfully “spar” with each other in the broadcast booth.
Rest in Peace, Scootah…
I just saw his hall of fame inducition speech recently and it was one of the funniest things i’ve ever seen. Phil was a classic and will be missed. God bless his family.
Just heard about Scooter. I had the privilege to meet him at a card show when I was eight years old. Just a wonderful man who loved people. He autographed one of his baseball cards for me (it was in a “throwback” set printed in the early 80s) and posed for a photo with me, which I still have.
Holy cow. I know he wouldn’t want me to be sad, but I am a little.
I wonder how all the writers who declared the Yanks dead are feeling right now.
The Daily News in particular.
Additional notes: watching the game on the Oriole’s network (Yank fan living in the DC area) – the announcers were cool when Joba was pitching to Huff, didn’t speak on the final pitch, just let the crowd noise do the commentary, which was awesome. They exploded like a walk-off homerun. Not sure if they Yankees’ announcers could have been as restrained (take note Michael Kay and John Sterling…).
Lastly, how does this look? Our rotation in 2008: Pettite, Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, Mussina; 2009: Johan Santana, Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, Ian Kennedy
Scooter must have been in bad shape. He wasn’t even able to attend Old Timers Day.
A shame.
Having three home grown aces makes things a lot easier on a GM.
Especially since you don’t have to pay them for a while.
Pete:
Any new info on the Yanks draft signings?
That’s sad news about Scooter. He’ll be missed — thinking of him always brings a smile. May he rest in peace.
damn. its definitely a sad day…so long scooter!
It is very tempting to keep Joba in the pen next year but the dude is a starter. He can be dominating in either role.
RIP Scooter.
It is so great to see what Cashman has built take hold here. I love watching homegrown players join the mix. Not many GM’s would have held onto all these prospects the past 3 years.
We can bash him for many things but you have to give an enormous amount of credit to him for this.
Phil hadn’t been at Old Timers day for a few years now.
RIP Scooter, you will be greatly missed!
I am so sad to hear Scooter has died. He has always felt like a grandfather to me. Did all the games in my childhood. This is a very sad day for Yankee fans around the world. RIP.
Good news about the Iggy trade, in my estimation. I was worried the Yankees’ braintrust was going to try to trade him too easily and not get enough in return (Cla Meredith + a prospect or two might have been intriguing, though). Igawa has too cost-efficient of a contract to be traded away before the offseason (he’ll be a solid NL pitcher, I promise you that), and I think the Yankees give him one more season before completely giving up on him. Next year’s rotation isn’t completely set – I don’t know that Clemens will return, and Joba may not be ready to start by then. Plus, if Pettitte doesn’t come back, there’s another spot in the rotation (and Kennedy isn’t a sure thing either). So keep Igawa unless a seriously good offer comes our way.
Here’s the lineup I hope we see today against Cabrera, the solid righty:
CF Cabrera
SS Jeter
RF Abreu
3B Rodriguez
DH Giambi
LF Matsui
C Posada
2B Cano
1B Betemit
There’s a possibility Jeter gets the day off though, in which case I think it’d be nice to play Duncan at 1B with Betemit at SS. Let’s see what Torre does. . .
RIP Phil Rizzuto. What a great guy.
I grew up with the Yankees in the late 70s, and Scooter was such a part of that experience. So sad to hear this news. Rest In Peace.
Sad about “Scooter.”
I always got a chuckle out of the “Holy Cow,” and the “Happy Birthday’s.”
Neil B.:
I heard (I don’t know if I heard it here) that Joe wants to give Robbie a day off. Today might be it, although it would make more sense to do so vs. Bedard (lhp) tomorrow than against Cabrera today, who is, as you noted, right-handed.
In that case, I would imagine that Betemit plays 2b and Phillips would slot in at 1b.
“Coco Crisp cannot hold Melky’s jock in the field.
A couple of spectactular catches does not make one a great fielder.”
I’m guessing you haven’t watched many Sox games this year.
RIP Scooter
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=2973955
It looks like the Yankees could not hammer out a deal for the Padres to take Igawa off our hands…..DOUBLE DANG !
http://www.ajc.com/falcons/con....._0815.html
In an unrelated matter,,,you can bet the farm that Vick will be suspended from the NFL for at least the next 2-3 years, if not a lifetime ban. It will be hard to play football while he is in prison. And, I can’t imagine the NFL ever letting him put on a uniform again when he pleads guilty to those horrific chargers. By Thursday, every last one of his friends (?), you call them co-defendents now, will have sided with the government and taken plea deals in exchange for their testimony against Vick. This is like the Mike Tyson fall, except instead of watching it happen over years and years…Vick gets blasted out of the sky and he is OVER in a flash.
Yea, Neil. I could definately see the Padres trading their 7th inning pitcher and a prospect for a rookie AAA pitcher with control problems and not great stuff.
Dream much?
We’re going to need another arm in that pen. If its Krazy Karl, then so be it.
We won’t win without it.
christ… how sad man, what a downer.
KAJ – more horrific than manslaughter ?
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/ne.....;type=lgns
Vick would have been better off beating his wife or driving drunk and killing someone.
I don’t get the outrage here. Where was the rage when Leonard Little killed someone drunk driving?
When Ray Lewis helped kill someone?
And what kind of sentence can one get for dog fighting? 6 months??
Got to love the NFL players assoc really sticking up for one of their guys.
Maybe thats why they have the worst contract in team sports. You think baseball would let the league do this to one of their players who hasn’t even been convicted yet??
Sherard, are you saying that what Vick did was OK ? Is it more horrific than the Son Of Sam ? What is your point ?
The Silver article is a good take on it. I just don’t get the outrage over it. Maybe he should get 4 games. But a lifetime ban?? Come on. He didn’t kill a human here.
yankssox ima tell you exactly what coco crisp does, and i call it the “torri-wanna-get-on-baseball-tonight move”. coco basically overdoes the play, if u see torri hunter on any given day hes making some simple jump at a ball catch into a fade away crash into a fence for no reason just to make it look more dramatic. coco does the same thing. some guys make things look simple, and some have to go diving at everything landing on their faces for added effect. i really don’t wanna argue about it cuz im stubborn as hell about it.
You saying that dogs are more valued than a human being KAJ?
Josh / Sherard, just because OTHER criminals got passes in the NFL or any other sport doesn’t make it right. Maybe THIS is the player that they draw the line in the sand at and say NO MORE ! If you engage in criminal behavior, you risk LOSING YOUR FRIGGIN JOB !!! How does it work in the real world fellas ? Are convicted felons being offered multi-million dollar CEO positions ? How about this NOVEL IDEA ? Players of sports are EMPLOYEES, and as such, they risk losing their jobs FOREVER if they become serious criminals…..CRAZY, huh ? Why would we EVER make the spoiled brat players of sports, the ones that are paid STUPID sums of money…why would we EVER make them accoutable for their actions…why would we try to make them act responsible ON and OFF the field of play ? I am so freakin’ crazy for suggesting that…I am going to call the nice men in the white suits to come take me away right now…I HAVE LOST MY MIND !
CNN’s reporting that Scooter’s just passed on.
Boston would love to be out from under the Crisp contract.
And the Lugo deal.
And the Drew deal.
And the Clement deal.
RIP Scooter. Hell of a ballplayer and an even better man.
Buddy
August 14th, 2007 at 11:17 am
You saying that dogs are more valued than a human being KAJ?
Absolutely NOT,,,I am saying that criminals…ALL CRIMINALS should be punished to the fullest extent of the law and that if ANY criminal loses his job because of criminal actions towards humans, dogs, lions, tigers or bears…they ALL should be subject to the same penalties that EVERYBODY needs to be subject to. Crazy, huh ??
RIP Phil
From Boston Dirt Dogs web site… Classic!
Check it out. The ghost of 78′!
http://www.bostondirtdogs.com/
barnsy
Crisp makes under 4 million a year, please look things up before posting completely false statements
RIP Phil Rizzuto. How awful.
Sorry KAJ but I really don’t consider dog fighting to be on par with other crimes like murder. It’s not like he was funding a drug running operation. Go down South for a few years. You will see that it is part of the culture there.
I’m going to be the contrarian here. Admittedly, Farnsworth has no business being used as a set-up guy in a close game. That said, the suggestion that he has no productive role to play during a playoff race vastly overstates how bad he has been. Consider that Kyle has appeared in 48 games and allowed runs in only 16 of them (one-third). Consider further that the Yankees’ record in the 16 games in which Farnsworth has ALLOWED runs is 10-6 (.625), which is a significantly better winning percentage than they possess for the season as a whole.
Clearly, with the kind of season he’s had, Kyle shouldn’t be trusted with the game in his hands. However, if you don’t let him lose the game for you, he won’t. He is now in a role where, instead of being right behind Mo in the BP pecking order, he’s 4th or 5th down the list. I’m sure other playoff-bound teams have had worse pitchers than Farnsworth that far down in their bullpens.
It’s still ridiculous that Kennedy is not starting this game. You can’t convince me that the Yankees would be hurt if they had to waive Kevin Reese, Chris Basak, or TJ Beam. There is literally no use for those three guys. Beam is not good and the other two are career minor leaguers. Furthermore, by starting Karstens you shorten your bullpen for the next few days. What happens if Hughes goes out and is absolutely hammered by Baltimore tomorrow? Do you leave him in there and says ‘work through it’ or do you burn through the bullpen (usually what happens)? If they had called up Kennedy and he sucked, then they would’ve had Karstens ready to go.
Also, I missed the Andy Phillips debate but I’ll jump into it: he sucks. He had one hot streak (just like last year) that inflated his numbers and now he’s back to being himself. His SLG percentage is awful and I’m pretty sure Betemit (whose made his fair share of slick plays at first since joining the team) could do what Andy does at 1B. If he has to be kept on the team then it should be for LATE INNING defensive purposes. He shouldn’t be starting.
How is it false, Yankssox?
They’ve been trying to trade Crisp since they got him!! Maybe you should read your own Boston papers.
They’ve basically offered to give him away.
Plus, they have a rookie CF coming up who makes next to nothing.
So, yes, I think they’d like to get out from under that contract.
Is this an NFL blog??? Who cares about Vick and the other 100 NFL criminals?
No one has made more mistakes since 2005 than Theo Epstein.
And now with Ortiz hurting and Manny not caring it is coming back to haunt them.
“They’ve been trying to trade Crisp since they got him!! Maybe you should read your own Boston papers.
They’ve basically offered to give him away.”
Where and when?? Plese show me these examples. Because you want to trade a player doesn’t mean you are trying to give him away. He has a very managable contract which means it is easy to move him and get a good return.
I seem to remember the same things said about Farnsworth now that was said about Vizcaino in May.
A pitcher can’t fix his problems as long as hes healthy now???
We need another bullpen arm. Why shouldn’t it be him?
You work him back like you did Vizcaino.
P.S.: Farnsworth sucks. He’s not going to contribute down the stretch. Just because a guy can rear back and throw 98MPH doesn’t mean a thing. He has poor control and a flat slider. You want to know how you throw hard? Hit the gym, lift some weights, and the build your leg strength. With the proper workout routine, any strapping young lad can throw a baseball hard.
I went into everyword that Steve Phillips said/has said or will say about the yankee and proved him wrong on somemany different levels, here is his arguments versus the truth:
http://migames.wordpress.com/2.....ake-sense/
On a different note, RIP Scooter. Damn, I loved that guy
Condolences to Scooter’s family.
In every trade last yr they tried to throw him in. For Andruw Jones for one. For every SP they tried to get.
It was in every Boston paper as early as last May. They tired of Crisp really quick.
You can defend Crisp all you want but you can’t get around the fact that they have big time buyers remorse with him.
And would love to get rid of him especially with Ellsbury in Trip A.
They don’t really want to pay a 4th OF that kind of money.
Ryan, the Yankees will have one less year until arbitration eligibility if they put Kennedy in the Majors now. I don’t think they feel it’s worth it for just one start.
just told my father who’s working outside about the scooter. they’re within a year or two of each other in age. after a pause , he talked for the next 15 minutes about the family farm he grew up on in maine that he used to ride down from in the back of the family pick up to yankee stadium to watch dimaggio and later rizzuto. he didn’t talk about thigs rizzuto did or meant to him ,but clearly it took him back to another time. it’s amazing how baseball transcends and connects the generations.
“You want to know how you throw hard? Hit the gym, lift some weights, and the build your leg strength. With the proper workout routine, any strapping young lad can throw a baseball hard.”
That is moronic.
Not everyone can throw 98mph, chief. It is God given. Hence why teams want guys that can do it. If all it took was weights and working the legs everyone in the majors would do it. Don’t ya think???
Scooter will be missed… he was a lot of fun as a player and a commentator.
Since Kyle is obviously in Joe’s doghouse, I think that Joba needs to pitch on alternate days with Mariano for one inning in accordance with the Joba Rules. You save Mariano from being over-worked like he was Sunday/Monday. In effect, Joba becomes a second closer. Viz & Krazy Kyle would become the setup guys.
Too bad about the Scooter. Another player from the Golden Age of Baseball passes. He was a link to the glory days, on the field and in the booth with Mel Allen. Add me to the list of fans who grew up with Scooter the broadcaster, and who will always smile when I recall his fear of lightening – - and extra innings.
swo,
What’s more important? Money or winning games? Kennedy is more than likely going to be with the big club next year anyway and I’d be surprised if he wasn’t apart of the September call ups. Karstens hasn’t even been able to stretch himself out in the LR role and has done NOTHING to suggest he’d give the Yankees a chance to win outside of waste an 8R second inning vs Chicago. Why does he have this start?
randy- I grew up watching the yanks with my dad and now late grandfather, listening to scooter on the tv. it is amazing how some legends like scooter really did transcend and connect generations of fans, like my family. we’re all a bit poorer today for losing him.
swo,
Live in reality. It’s the Yankees not the Devil Rays. You think they care about that? They’re trying to win a title here. They already gave him a big time signing bonus. You really think they acre about starting the clock if hes ready to pitch?
I don’t know, Ryan. I’m not the GM.
Yes, i loved how scooter use to leave around the 6th inning to beat traffic and they would always show the bridge in the next inning and Murcer or Seaver would always say: There goes scooter.
great answer swo!
migames –
I just heard Phillips’ “opinion” on ESPN a few minutes ago. What made me chuckle was how he denigrated the Yankee offense, yet made a point of saying it was offense that would carry the Rockies and the Braves. Also, he totally ignored the Yankees’ pitching statistics since the All-Star break, citing instead, where they are ranked for the entire season. Selective.
randy1:
My dad just did a similar trip back on the time machine. He’s about ten years younger than the Scooter.
My dad’s father was born in Italy and came over here as a young man to work as a contractor. Having Italian players like DiMag or Rizzuto on the Yankees was an enormous source of pride for the old man. He didn’t care how much better Dimag was than Rizzuto; it only mattered that they were Italian. In that regard my grandfather considered them equals.
One lasting memory of my Italian grandfather is of him watching a Yankee game in front of a TV (on a plastic covered sofa no less) one lazy summer afternoon yelling “Go Pepitone! Go Pepitone!” No doubt it was a game that Rizzuto was broadcasting.
Coco is definitely awesome in the field. However, his arm makes Johnny Damon’s look like a cannon.
OLNEY IS AN INDIAN
GAMMONS IS A RED SOCK
PHILLIPS IS A MORON
What you guys don’t understand about Steve Phillips is he is committed to the “Yanks will Lose and Fold” position.
He staked it out in April and he cannot give up on it now.
No matter how good the Yanks do and look he will never, ever say they will do well. It doesn’t fit his template.
Kinda like the Democrats and the lose the Iraq War positition.
JOE MORGAN IS SENILE
Funny picture “Ghost of 78″:http://bostondirtdogs.boston.c......13.07.jpg
Steve Phillips idiotic message goes beyond anything Joe Morgan has ever said, or even tried to say. His arguments just dont make anysense. None. This has nothing to do with being a yankee fan, this has more to do with being a baseball fan.
Steve Phillips is like Fox News, makes up stuff
Chris,
But why is he committed to that? He was one of the few espn experts to pick the Yankees winning the World Series. So either he:
a) believes we’re a really bad team in comparison to Seattle
b) hates us
c) has amnesia
d) has an agenda, like trying to play devil’s advocate.
I go for he hates us, but why pick us in the preseason? I’ve changed my mind, I think it’s just that he’s an idiot.
I dunno the Yankees could have done a better job, a painting alright but three pieces from the same guy? The artwork was so bright, not very creative. Arod might have been actually insulted being a art lover, he knows good vs. bad art. And to boot, they dropped his 500 bat art piece sheesh. Glavine got a car and skis! The Yankees used to better at this kind of stuff. I will say his daughter was adorable, cute as can be.
Steve Phillips is the idiot who started the rumors last year that the yankees will trade Arod. All because Arod didnt sign with the Mets when he was there. Pure and evil
Josh
August 14th, 2007 at 11:25 am
Sorry KAJ but I really don’t consider dog fighting to be on par with other crimes like murder. It’s not like he was funding a drug running operation. Go down South for a few years. You will see that it is part of the culture there.
Josh…I did live in the South, pal. Dog Fighting is NOT a part of the Culture, dude ! There ARE many things that people of the South deem to be OK though, like dog fighting, but it doesn’t make it RIGHT or LEGAL ! You keep trying to downplay what he did. He did a stupid, mean, illegal thing and although it is not on par with HITLER, he still needs to face the music, pal. Oh, and by the way things are shaking out, he WILL.
“Farnsworth has had more than one good year. His slider is his out pitch, which makes his fastball better.”
SJ, I guess it depends on what you consider a ‘good’ year. I only see one decent one there, and nothing dominant at all. Further, he hasn’t even been remotely lousy in the American league. National league Era can hide a lot for a pitcher, especially a reliever.
His best year was 01 with an ERA of 2.74, which really isn’t all that great considering when and which league he is pitching in. Its decent if you really pressed me. But that same year he was 4-6. Not terribly good. Further, he has always put men on base with walks. He does get the strikeouts, but so does Igawa.
He was ok with Atlanta and Detroit I suppose, but I see that as more of an aberration, and I have 8 years to back me up.
As a Yankee, he has done nothing but fail, over and over again for two years now. Few would argue this point.
A career 4.5 Era as a reliever, when most of your work was in the National league is simply dreadful. What we have seen of him is even worse.
I agree completely that we need another arm, but allowing Farnsworth to assume this role now, means he will be on our post season roster, a recipe for disaster. We also know Joe has a history of using substandard pitchers in some of the most clutch moments of all.
As you see, Cashman must take away the one remaining ‘toy’ from Joe if we are to make a legitimate go of this. Winning the division will mean absolutely nothing to me if we don’t get a ring. I’m sure most here would agree with that somewhat selfish sentiment. Farnsworth would sabotage that possibility in the playoffs.
BJ
Dog fightting is horrific..Vick should burn in hell for being part of it.
YankeesLuv,
I read about the ceremony and the art here, but it did not prepare me for the shock when watched the video. The likeness of Alex was remarkable, but the colors were loud. The thing that made it look amateurish were the vertical bats. I think it would’ve been nice to have the bats cross like they are on plaques. Also, the colors could’ve been blended. Looked like he took his time with the portrait and slapped the background in a rush.
I don’t know much about art, but maybe it’s a Miami thing?
Overall, though, from Alex to the artist to Joe to Jeter it seemed to be a feel-good, genuine moment. Even Cashman looked healthy. That death warmed over look is gone.
Cruelty to animals is bad, but no one can argue that it is worse than violent crimes against humans. You can feel empathy for those animals, but would animal cruelty make you feel worse than if your father was shot or your daughter was raped and killed? Although, there may be a connection between cruelty to animals and psychopathic behavior.
AFAIK A-Rod collects that artists artwork. Art taste is obviously an indivdiual thing. That was very Peter Max style, if you like that kind of style.
A piece that was commissioned for him, and is therefore completely unique would probably mean quite a lot to someone who collects artwork. Someone in the Yankees FO put some thought into what they gave him, obviously.
I don’t think he painted Arod, I think it was one of those artistic take a photo of him and apply it to the canvas things. I didn’t like the vertical bats either. I just thought one piece of art by him would have been okay but three was too much.
Just to offer another insight into the Melky vs. Coco debate:
Check out Coco’s BP card:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/crispco01.php
He’s absolutely fielding out of his mind this season. 37 FRAR?? Holy crap! That’s close to best-of-the-majors stuff. Despite an Andy Phillips-like .273/.338/.395, Crisp has been worth 7.6 wins to the Red Sox this year, all thanks to his glove. That’s pretty ridiculous.
On the other hand, Melky:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/cabreme01.php
And he’s fielding extremely solidly as well, 29 FRAR. But compare his bat – .302/.350/.451 and he’s clearly been better than Coco this year. Plus, he has the stronger arm, as evidenced by last night’s opportune outfield assist. Sheesh.
My conclusions:
1) Coco fields better, probably due to his better sense of positioning (and getting good jumps).
2) Melky has a stronger arm, partially shown by his 11-5 lead in outfield assists.
3) Melky is a much better bat, as in a 60 points higher OPS.
Throw in the fact that Melky is 23 and Coco is turning 28 this year, and the Yanks have got to be real excited about the next 6-8 years at CF.
You can judge a society by how it treats its animals (and children).
If you can’t treat a defenseless dog with compassion and kindness, treating humans the same way is just the next step.
“Go down South for a few years. You will see that it is part of the culture there.”
So was slavery.
Isn’t there another blog to which you could take your animal debate?
Phil,
Is that a first here on Pete’s blog? A PETA troll? lol. Seriously, the issue has been brought to the forefront of the American conscience and dogfighters will retreat back to the hills. No one will be stupid enough to do this in the open, although I have a feeling that Vick is not the last stupid athlete we’ll see.
PETA TROLLS SUCK!
Jeez, what’s with the crash course in sociology and psychology?
What Michael Vick did was against the law, and that’s the end of it. If you guys have personal issues with it, that’s fine. But those of us who want to talk baseball really don’t want to hear about it.
Dude what else is there to talk about. No action so far today(besides the unfortunate passing of Scooter).
I guess we could talk about how bad Andy Phillips is, but that’s beating a dead horse. And no I don’t approve of beating dead horses.
dont,
lol. that would be cruelty to the readers here.
Mel,
maybe we can start an anti-troll organization. SPCYF(society for the prevention of cruelty towards Yankee fans)
Society for prevention of cruelty towards Yankee fans.
Thanks for clarifying. I thought you meant one “spicy f”. This morning, they showed the Spice Girls on t.v. talking about their reunion. They described them as “Old Spice”. Classic!
How about a discussion of Betemit’s potential? Could he be our starting first baseman next season? I think he’s got a shot – there’s no other obvious choice.
As good as Andy is, I’ve got the feeling that he’s not a long-term solution at 1B. If Betemit can be as good as Andy defensively, he definitely would have the edge with that sick power, last night’s HR was an inside-out shot! He’s also a young switch hitter. There seems to be a waiting line for 1B starts with our crowded outfield/DH. I like the flexibility. Alex or Jeter needs a break, Wilson fills in, then Matsui or Jason (Cairo!) fills in at 1B.
Oops, forgot Damon, if he’s still on the team next year.
I like Betemit. He mashes right handed pitching which is great. His best season was ’05 with the Braves when he put up a .794 OPS and hit over .300. If he can give the Yanks that kind of production at first, I’d love to see him there. Although a platoon may not be ideal, I would also love to see Shelley get some action at first against left-handers.
barnsy
Your paying your fourth outfielder 13 mill a year.
Here are my points, Coco wasn’t what Theo thought he was going to be. I never said he was a great player, I was just responding to one comment by saying that he is a better defensive player than Melky, Coco’s arm sucks, and he is better on the basepaths.
Also, he doesn’t cost too much, they aren’t trying to get rid of his contract, he cost 3.8 million, they were just looking for more production out of centerfield, plus they have Ellsbury coming up. Thats why they were trying to move him. You can’t compare his contract to those of Drew, Lugo, and Clement.
Juan Miranda should also merit serious consideration for next season. In AA his OPS is .900. I don’t know anything about his defense, and he does struggle against lefties, but that kind of power is hard to ignore.
Melky is not better than CoCo in the field, he is equal to him. They have the exact same ZR, which is good for fifth best in all of baseball. Melky has a better arm so that gives him the advantage.
Texas asked for Melky, not Coco. lol.
Seriously, Coco’s good, but Boston can have him. Melky’s got some of that intangible stuff that’s not measured in stats and zone ratings. Kind of like Jeter, and it’s not all luck. They’re positive and make good things happen.
Theres a defensive stat called THT win shares, Crisp is first at 6.4, Melky’s 25th at 2.9. Crisp has better speed so that gives him the advantage.
This wasn’t a discussion on whos better, Melky is younger and is far above Coco at the plate this year. Coco is the better defender.
This year Melky > Coco
Please none of this Melky intangible stuff though
Melky is a lot younger then CoCo and will only get better. Ellsbury and Moss are both overrated and I can’t wait to see Red Sox fans turn on them.
Speaking of Coco, whatever happened to Andy Marte? He is sucking it up in AAA this year. I thought he was supposed to be the next great 3B.
“Speaking of Coco, whatever happened to Andy Marte? I thought he was supposed to be the next great 3B.”
Perfect example of why you can’t just declare prospects to the hall of fame before they achieve anything.
Thanks, Sunny – nice cartoon.
Looks like the Iggy deal is dead.
the deadline pasted 15 minutes ago, and no news must mean nothing happened.
Buster Olnery’s filed a report just 3 hours ago, saying, “it doesn’t look like a deal will be reached.”
Rats, I wanted to clear that problem and budget dollars off the table. How many more gift horses are out there.
Interesting what kind of discussion gets one branded a troll here. PETA Troll? I simply commented on a discussion at hand. Angry mob mentality in here at times. Being a troll would be starting the topic and hijacking the thread with it. Someone else already did that. Maybe you should save your troll branding irons for that person.
Are you the same blog nazis who tell Peter he should only be posting about the Yankees and not music or anything else?
Yanksox,
Boston can have Coco and his defense. We’ll take Melky along with his bat, arm, infectious personality, and intangibles.
http://minorleagueball.com/sto.....13058/6308
good read
mel,
I don’t care, just saying Coco is better defensively
Observer,
My bad, I just was making a joke with someone who obviously didn’t want to rehash that topic. I just had an image in my mind of the PETA guys storming the Falcons facility. It’s all good. As far as I know, there aren’t any nazis here.
Boston, Mass., what a city – NOT !
http://www.boston.com/sports/b.....t_to_coast
Coco has been TERRIBLE for the Sox.
He’s giving defense?
He should for the lack of offense hes been giving them.
He’s gone by Dec of this yr to pave the way for the kid.
Crisp is as overrated as they come. They can’t give him away fast enough.
Now that the elad is down to 4 games it’s about time some pressure was put on the Crisps, Lugos and Drews.
They had a cakewalk for 4 months with their bad play
Crisp may be better, but not much. Slightly better fielding percentage and range factor. He does have some spectacular stretch dives. Melky’s got 12 assists to Coco’s 5. As far as I know having a good arm is a part of being a good defender. Helps keep the runners honest. You go by stats, then you’re right. But stats don’t tell the whole story.
I’m for a open and honest discussion, as long as people don’t get into name calling, and long as their genuine and simply trying to provoke reactions.
On Vick, I would invite him, his noted legal team, and some madison ave PR teams to run some the arguments run by Yahoo dot com guy: it was only a dog; OJ was never held responsible for beating his spouse; the Cops who beat Rodney King on video were acquitted; vehicular manslaughter is taken lightly in st louis; Scooter Libby betrayed his country and his friend pardoned him; we kill dogs everyday; my shoes are made of leather and I ate a ham & cheese sandwich for lunch. Somehow, I don’t think Vick’s legal and PR teams will be presenting these arguments and examples to the jury.
bottom line: two wrongs don’t make a right. Ty Cobb and OJ are in the HOF and Pete Rose isn’t. should we let pete in, or throw Ty and OJ out?
Just cuz OJ was never held to account doesn’t mean open season on spouses. Vick knew what he was doing was illegal, that’s why he went through the trouble of insulating himself. Don’t make an example of him. but don’t cut him a break because of all travesties of justice. Treat him the like anyone else, no better, no worse.
Let’s remember, the Daily News says Bonds will likely be indicted for perjury. when that happens, should he argue, “big deal, Ty Cobb killed a man and..”
“Boston can have Coco and his defense. We’ll take Melky along with his bat, arm, infectious personality, and intangibles”
I guess we’ll take Coco and our 4 game lead.
\kelly and Monument pushed the troll out of me
Just because some makes diving plays doesn’t make him a better defensive OF.
That’s just uninformed.
You never see the greats dive because they get good jumps and they catch the ball when they should catch the ball.
Crisp takes bad routes and has to compensate for it.
Take the 4 game lead that dwindles daily.
They needed an almost no hitter last night to beat those great Devil Rays.
How many automatic outs are in that lineup??
Coco, Lugo, Drew, Varitek
When Ortiz gets to 25 homers he can talk.
Whats he batting in the “clutch” this yr???
“You never see the greats dive because they get good jumps and they catch the ball when they should catch the ball.”
This makes absolutely no sense. So your saying if I hit a ball out of a greats reach (lets say Melky) then he lets the ball drop. Show me one of the dives Coco made this year that 1. He dived to make it look good 2. A great would of made without diving 3. Melky would of made at all. There is a whole archive of videos out there, please find one video of Coco which explains any of those three things.
This is America. There is always a second act. Vick will be fine.
You know he never personally killed any dog. Not once in the indictment does it say he was even there.
Monument,
This is what happens on this site, I say one comment on how Coco is a better defender than Melky, thats all I said, and people on here just explode. They give me know reason why Melky is better (he doesn’t have to dive, greats don’t dive, Coco dives to showboat) and everyone just yells and says a player sucks, and then eventually someone is talking about the whole Red Sox team. Give it a rest, I don’t come onto this forum to fight with Yankees fans about what team is better. I come on here to have informed conversations on certain topics (mostly the Yankees). Yet they all end the exact same way.
Are you serious?
The good ones get to the ball everytime so they DON’T HAVE TO DIVE. They actually have good jumps and run good routes. SO they actually catch the ball on their feet and ready to throw.
Unlike bad outfielders who run bad rtoutes and have to compensate and dive
That too much for you to comprehend?
Mike, you’re right. And Americans have the greatest capacity to forgive their athletes and their transgressions. It’s weird, but this may be one of those things that people have a hard time forgiving. (I don’t care either way).
However to say he’s not complicit is wrong. If you’re brother-in-law had a meth lab in your home and you knew about it, you’d be wrong for letting it continue.
I hope you don’t come here to argue which team is better right now because you would lose.
Badly.
At least you know you’re place. And you know how poor Lugo, Drew, Crisp and the others are.
This is a country that gives murderers a secone chance. A child rapist won the Best Dir oscar a few years ago. Robert Downey JR still gets roles.
No one cares about football players. If he can help win games he’ll be starting as a QB next season.
The public just wants to be entertained. They stopped looking for morals in athletics and entertainment a long time ago.
Defend the Sox pitching. You cannot defend people like Crisp. He’s been awful. Almost as bad as the SS.
“The good ones get to the ball everytime so they DON’T HAVE TO DIVE. They actually have good jumps and run good routes. SO they actually catch the ball on their feet and ready to throw.”
So where are these good ones who get to a ball everytime.
“That too much for you to comprehend?”
Yes it is too much for me to comprehend that the greats don’t ever let balls drop within a foot of them. Okay so who are these greats? Lets just say for the sake of the argument, lets see Willie Mays, so if he is standing in center and I hit a ball 30 feet away from him and he can only run 28 feet before the ball hits the ground, how is he going to catch it without diving. But wait the greats get to every ball, so basically that means that any ball hit in the vicinity of center field would get caught by Mays. He must be the fastest man on the planet to cover about 100 square feet in less than two seconds…
some people on this site
“I hope you don’t come here to argue which team is better right now because you would lose.”
No I don’t I just look at the standings
Coco may have slightly more range (yes his zone rating is slightly higher – Coco’s is 4th in zone rating currently/ melky is 5th).
However, he has one of the worst outfield arms of any starter in baseball. Melky has one of the best centerfield arms in all of baseball. Not only does he have tremendous range on his throws but he is extremely accurate.
That’s the primary defensive difference between them. Coco has slightly more range (and again – look at the Zone rating between them – its not a large difference) and Melky’s arm is two orders of magnitude better than Coco’s. Look at the overall outfield assists as a statistic to back that up.
The defensive difference between them has been well demonstrated the past few games. In last night’s Yankee game you saw what a weapon Melky’s arm is throwing out the runner at home with a rope from the outfield.
Over the weekend we saw what a liability Crisp’s arm is – that “throw” of his in the game they lost 6-5 was atrocious – and Boston fans and the Boston media said that uniformly.
So take your pick but its not very close. Overall the marginal difference in range is no where near the difference in their arm’s.
And on the offensive side there is no comparison. And on top of that the Red Sox Nations absolutely abhors Coco because as a “replacement” for Damon he’s been a huge dissapointment despite Theo’s sabermetrics.
YanksSox, are you serious here?
What don’t you get about balls hit in the outfield. Good outfielders get to.
Is it too complicated? Hunter, Jones, Cameron
They all get to balls. When they dive its because they have to. Not because they run bad routes and don’t get good jumps
Like your buddy Coco.
Hes a bad CF. Hes a LF. Hence why Theo has been fielding offers for him for 2 yrs.
Sox fans shouldn’t be talking about standings.
Because everyday it sinks more and more.
Their lead.
An all time classic choke
Yanksox,
Why do watch the standings? There’s no way that Boston could blow a 14.5 game lead.
YanksSox:
Don’t worry.
We are all glued to those standings. With each win it becomes even better.
CB
I am actually surprised to see an argument on here with actual data and game references.
As I said before I never said I would take Coco over Melky. I said he is better defensively. Yes Melky has a better arm, and Coco has more range. I believe all these things to be true. Having a crappy arm in centerfield is a liability but it is more useful in center to have a faster player who makes better reads on balls. I remember a play earlier in the year that Melky missed and turned into a in the park homerun.
Coco is better in centerfield, Melky has a better arm and better intangibles. I don’t care who would rather have who, just that Coco is better defensively. Win Shares is a great stat to back up my point because it takes every piece into play when deciding a players defensive value, Coco was first out of all OF in this stat.
“And on top of that the Red Sox Nations absolutely abhors Coco because as a “replacementâ€? for Damon he’s been a huge dissapointment despite Theo’s sabermetrics.”
I don’t agree with this at all. Coco got hurt last year and broke his finger and Damon outplayed by far. But, this year taking into account that Damon can’t play CF anymore and his one strong part is his offense I don’t think many people are too sad to see Damon go. Coco will be just fine.
Coco’s a better CF because he makes diving catches??
That makes about zero sense.
Too bad he’s also hitting about a buck ten.
“What don’t you get about balls hit in the outfield. Good outfielders get to.
Is it too complicated? Hunter, Jones, Cameron
They all get to balls. When they dive its because they have to”
Wait, you said good outfielders don’t have to dive. Also, Loren, I haven’t seen one video of one of Coco’s diving catches where he made a bad route, and _had to_ dive. Show me just one, please, then I will believe you.
“An all time classic choke”
It will almost _almost_ make up for 2004
Loren,
YanksSox isn’t really serious. Coco is public enemy number four (right after Gagne, Lugo and Nancy Drew) on the Red Sox nation hit list.
Red Sox fans widely hate Crisp and think of him as a joke of a ball player.
Like all Sox fans he’s getting desperate and trying to make patently nonsensical arguments just to be inflammatory.
That’s all they have left.
Just take a look at what’s on their minds…
http://bostondirtdogs.boston.c....._ma_1.html
Check the stats if you think that Crisp has outplayed Damon.
Because you would be wrong.
There is little chance the Sox begin play next year with Crisp in CF.
“Coco’s a better CF because he makes diving catches??”
not one of my posts says this
this is what most YFs posts read
“Coco’s a worse CF because he makes diving catches??”
And I am just defending why that is wrong
in memory of scooter–
when I was a kid and playing little league I wanted to play like the scooter. he gave his all and was a little guy and being a little guy myself i sure could relate to him. he was a fantastic shortstop and a clutch player. just wanted to express my thoughts and care to the family.
I hope he’s not CB. Because he’d be out of his nervous little head right now.
When they blow this lead fully who do you think they blame?
Lugo, Drew, Crisp, Manny, Francona, Gagne, or Theo?
Have you ever seen someone so scared with a 4 game lead before??
The Sox Nation is jumping off ledges right now.
“Check the stats if you think that Crisp has outplayed Damon.
Because you would be wrong.”
I love this whole mind set on here where most people don’t even know where the facts are to check them, but they are just so sure they are right they say ridiculous comments like this one.
’07
Damon .259/.355/.361 44 games in CF
Crisp .273/.338/.395 107 games in CF
The diving catch gets him on Sportscenter though.
It would be a little better if he actually got a good jump and ran a good route once in a while.
Right, YanksSox?
The Yanks now have 2 better CF’s than Boston.
“Have you ever seen someone so scared with a 4 game lead before??
The Sox Nation is jumping off ledges right now.”
If I was scared I wouldn’t be on here arguing with you guys. When I am in hiatus, then I am scared.
And please stop referencing Boston Dirt Dogs, not one legitimate Red Sox fan has any respect for that website. Its a load of crap. Its like if I made a site about the Yanks and then put up stupid pictures and then told you guys how funny it is that you are scared.
You said last year too, you scaredy Nancy.
And the stats clearly show Damon outplaying Crisp.
So avoid it all you want.
You may be the only Boston fan defending him right now
“It would be a little better if he actually got a good jump and ran a good route once in a while.”
Still waiting for one clip Doren
“The Yanks now have 2 better CF’s than Boston.”
And the Sox have two aces better than NYs
This is fun I could do this all day
You seem plenty nervous and a lot on edge.
But that can be expected watching your team choke like this.
Why do you need a clip?
Watch the games.
It happens in every single one.
“You said last year too, you scaredy Nancy.”
Didn’t know this blog existed last year.
“And the stats clearly show Damon outplaying Crisp.”
Can you read?
the main difference between melky and coco (side note, am i the only one who finds it weird that you’ve got coco crisp and melk? sounds more like breakfast than baseball) isn’t the catching. whether the player stays on their feet or dives, they’re covering a roughly equivalent amount of ground (see zone arguments), though coco covers slightly more. the main defensive difference is in throwing, where melky has a huge advantage. plus, he tends to make his catches standing, which gives him an even greater advantage with his throwing.
offense isn’t even a question.
yanksox has been pretty decent, and is getting attacked for trying to have a baseball conversation. when we start changing to ‘we’re better and you’re stupid’ arguments, we’re no better than the trolls who show up. it’s ok to like a different team, and have a different view point. what makes this place great is that we can have discussions about topics, sometimes, without them turning into a elementry school playground hissyfit.
“Watch the games.
It happens in every single one.”
Watched them all, haven’t seen it once. I have seen Melky misplay a ball and result in a inside the parker though.
I guess you would take Gagne over Joba too.
What a loser.
It is true.
I’ve never seen fans with a 4 game lead act so nervous.
It’s so funny.
No one runs worse routes than Coco.
That’s what Sox fans have to hold their heads up high today????
Crisps defense????
HAHHAAH!!
YanksSox is funny. But the boston blogs are getting even more comical.
Melky’s zone rating today is 0.905.
Coco’s zone rating today is 0.905.
Of all defensive statistics Zone rating is probably the most valid. This is particularly true of a position like centerfield where range is critical.
In 89 games Melky has 10 outfield assists. That is number 1 of all AL centerfielders. Overall he’s tied for 4th in outfield assists in the AL.
In 107 games Coco has 5 assists.
That’s not just some small difference – that’s enormous.
In addition, assists are a deceptive statistic because players take chances running on Crisp’s arm all the time. They don’t take such chances nearly as often on Melky.
Melky has a right fielder’s arm but the ability to play centerfield. The more appropriate defensive comparison for him isn’t Crisp at all it’s Ichiro. Is he as good as Iciro defensively? Not at all but he brings similar flexibility in terms of range and arm.
Very few players have the type of defensive tools he has – and Crisp isn’t even close to being one of them his arm is not just a small liability but an enormous liability.
Regarding the fans perceptions of crisp – Red Sox fans hate (and that’s not an overstatement at all) Coco crisp. You might like him but that’s not typical for the RSN at all.
He’s still going on about how great Coco Crisp is?
That’s like someone here going on and on about how great Farnsworth is.
haha you are on the ledge YankSox, get ready to jump. You are trying to mask your insecurities regarding the sux by having a stupid argument about CoCo Crisp. As I said earlier he and Melky are essentially the same in the outfield, and Melky easily outperforms him at the plate. Why don’t we talk about something more pertinent, like the fact that the Sux have a terrible lineup and are about to blow a 14.5 game lead.
Don’t forget Melky is 23 years old and is a 2nd yr player.
Don’t even go into the batting because Sox fan might cry.
These posts aren’t making any sense, all I said was Coco is better defensively than Melky and used THT win shares to prove it.
Sorry,
Melky>Damon>Coco
Wang>Beckett/Dice-K
Joba>Every Sox reliever
Jeter>Ozzie Smith
Yankees>Red Sox
Michael Kay>… (sorry I have nothing even believable to put here)
Happy!
Will somebody grab YanksSox when he jumps??
How does win shares prove hes a better CF???
You still havent answered the fact that Crisp is a terrible route runner and gets bad jumps.
But typical Sox. Always discounting facts.
I don’t know anything about winshares, I do know about Zone Ratings though. As far as I know ZR is the most advanced defensive metric, and Coco and Melky are tied with the same ZR.
Yes, now we’re happy, you’ve seen the light. lol. Just having a good time with you. Pete leaves us alone for a few hours and look what happens. Over 200 posts comparing Coco/Melk.
If they pick up another game tonight, he really might jump.
We’d lose some crazy here which would stink.
I’ll remember you fondly Yankssox
Remember YanksSox, Seattle is only 3 games behind you in the loss column.
Dont Fire Cash
Zone Rating is a very good stat, but they have Win shares which determine how many wins a player makes up above the average player. There is also a defensive win shares shown here.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/t.....mit=Submit
There are plenty of things a Sox fan should argue. Arguing for Coco ain’t one of them.
What would be great is when the Yanks pass the Sox. The Sox also lose the WC.
It’s a coming.
so is it essentially the same thing as WARP?
“so is it essentially the same thing as WARP”
not sure all the sabermetrics involved but:
same no, similar yes
alright, I understand WARP, so your argument obviously has some degree of credence. But with ManRams terrible defense in left, wouldn’t it kind of hurt the value of Coco’s defense?
“But with ManRams terrible defense in left, wouldn’t it kind of hurt the value of Coco’s defense?”
I’m not sure how it directly affect the value Coco’s defense, if your saying more balls drop in and therefore account to hurting Coco if say he picks the ball up, not quite sure where the determine Manny’s terrority from Coco’s.
“not sure all the sabermetrics involved but:
same no, similar yes”
This is one of the most amazing things about baseball fans who quote statistics.
If you don’t understand the metric, how it’s constructed and what it represents don’t quote it because you don’t know what in the world you are talking about.
Why is win share “better” than zone rating?
If you don’t understand the metric you can’t really answer that question.
Wow my grammar was awful on that last post.
But as I have said 50 times in this post already. I am going just on getting to balls. I shouldn’t have said defensively because then arm strength comes into play. I believe that Coco is better at tracking down balls, getting to balls that most centerfielders don’t, having great speed to nakeup for any misroutes, and he on top of that has made some absolutely tremendous plays this year. Take away the dives I believe he is still a better _fielder_ than Melky.
I am not on here grasping onto one last hope, I was commenting on one other comment, and got completely ripped apart for about an hour and a half.
I don’t know what I meantt. Something along the lines of having poor defense in left negates the good defense in center. I know it doesn’t actually negate Cocos defense but it lesses the overall value in my opinion.
“If you don’t understand the metric you can’t really answer that question.”
The problem with a lot of the sabermetrics is it isn’t just hits divided by at bats to determine average. These metrics are determined by play by play data and the impact each specific play has on each specific game. There is no way to have full understanding of the entire process, or I would be able to work for the Yankees and the Red Sox. They don’t just have a simple math equation like a + b = c. Thats all I meant when I said I don’t understand everything involved.
“These posts aren’t making any sense, all I said was Coco is better defensively than Melky and used THT win shares to prove it. ”
except defensive win shares are pretty much worthless.
but yes, Coco is very good defensively.
probably better than Melky.
but Melky is still a better all-around player. and yes, i know you weren’t saying he wasn’t.
YanksSox,
Defensive Win Shares are basically a joke. No one uses them anymore to judge fielding ability.
YanksSox,
That’s simply not true of “sabermetrics.” They aren’t very complicated compared to how statistics are used on a day to day basis in many areas of life. Baseball fans just like to think there is some magic to “sabermetrics” They’re just statistics. That’s it. And not very complicated ones at that.
Also, when you say:
“But as I have said 50 times in this post already. I am going just on getting to balls. I shouldn’t have said defensively because then arm strength comes into play. I believe that Coco is better at tracking down balls, getting to balls”
In fact you are talking about exactly what Zone Rating is supposed to represent. What you say you are arguing about is the construct Zone Rating represents.
Melky and Crisp have the identical zone rating and its been essentially the same all year.
If you did a simple test for statistical significance between there zone ratings there would be no difference.
So if that’s what you’re interested in and not “defense” then you really have no argument whatsoever.
Defensive Win Shares is does not use play-by-play data. UZR is the king of fielding stats and relies on play-by-play data.
Here’s a primer on the some of the newer metrics being used:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/m.....valuators/
CB
Most Yanks fans will be very sad to know that you believe zone rating is the telling all fact of how good a player is defensively…
Derek Jeter is second to last in all of baseball.
There is no good defensive stat out there to prove how good a player is defensively. I believe Melky Cabrera has really come a long way, because he made some bad plays last year, but I haven’t seen someone play OF defense as well as Coco (this year, he has been an absolute vacuum) in a long time. If Melky is better than him, as some of you claim, then I am going to start tuning in because he must be one of the best center fielders the Yanks have ever seen.
*someone (in a Red Sox or Yankees uniform) play OF defense as well as Coco
\not claiming Coco is better than _____ insert name of golf glover here
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