Rivera, Yankees insist he’s fine physically
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- August
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So, is something wrong with Mariano Rivera? Here is what the Yankees are saying:
Rivera: “Physically I’m fine. I’m fine. Nothing is wrong. I’m just human, that’s all. I know you guys are trying to find something but I’m fine.”
Joe Torre: “I ask those questions all the time. If there was any question, he wouldn’t have been out there. I have no questions that are unanswered. … As I say, I don’t know anything if there is something bothering him. I ask those questions in advance. He assured me and I checked with the training staff.”
Brian Cashman: “As long as he says he’s healthy, I don’t worry about him.”
So, it seems he is fine. He just didn’t pitch well.
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on Wednesday, August 15th, 2007 at 6:41 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
Here’s what his deal is: He’s a human being. We’ve grown so accustomed to him being automatic. The guy had a couple of bad outings, and a few more than usual this season.
It seems pretty simple to me. He is reluctant to thorw high fastballs, and has been increasingly so the past few years. The batters are all settled in because they know where the pitch will be, and when he misses and catches a lot of the plate, they hit it. They have no fear that he is coming inside, and have no reason to look for a ball above the belt. It isn’t rocket science.
Yeah really. I don’t believe everything the management tells the fans. They r definetly something wrong and MO/management is hiding it from the fans.
So glad to hear he’s fine physically. The 4 and 5 out inning saves may be catching up to him a bit stamina-wise. But it is just a testament to his immense greatness that we all get so concerned if he has a couple of rough outings. I hope he knows that.
I gotta agree with Cash here….if he’s fine physically, I don’t worry about him either. The Greatest Of All Time will bounce back…he always does.
MO is the best and he will be fine. Time to put the screws to Detroit, while Boston continues to tread water…
Greatest Of All Time? That acronym is GOAT. Poor Mariano, I hope he’s healthy.
What happened the last Mo was doubted? And the time before that? And the time before that?
Couple of bad outings and people overreact. He’ll go back to being Mo and saving 19 straight games and all that.
I’m not so sure I like the idea of signing a 39 year old Rivera to an extension after this year if he’s expecting to get paid. I understand there isn’t much available on the market, but I’d look at Coco Cordero long and hard before signing Rivera for a few more years.
If there were ANYTHING wrong physically with Mo, he would be on the DL faster than you could believe. They won’t mess around with him and never have because of how valuable he is. They are always cautious with him with the exception of the 2 inning save they need him for every once in awhile.
I just think his pitches look high and fat. His velocity is still there, so it’s not physical limitations. I just think he’s struggling a bit with his grip/feel what have you. I think he’s having a hard time throwing the cutter right now, but last week he was killing teams, so I’m not worried. Just disappointed.
Today should have been a huge comeback win. While Shelley came up the most clutch, I just want everyone to take a deep breath and realize that Edwar and Henn held an opposing team scoreless.
Read that again, our middle relievers came in and they were effective. This is good. This is what we needed. We almost have a bullpen people.
I just get angry with Cashman/Torre for putting that awful display of Karstens/Brower out there yesterday. At least today we competed and if Hughes covers the bag, it’s a 1-0 and not 3-0.
It stunk to lose with Mo on the mound, but the positives were Shelley, Edwar, Henn and Hughes who gave us another effective start outside of his defensive lapse.
Let’s beat up on the Tigers this weekend and we’ll all feel much better.
I’d sign Mo at 39 even if it was just to sit in the bullpen and hang out. Just his presence brings fear inot hitters.
I’m glad the game thread is behind us now. Sometimes it’s really demotivating to try posting here. To get to a few people making level-headed comments (SJ44, Doreen, etc. Forgive me if I don’t look up the full list), you have to sort through a world of cr*p every time ANYTHING goes wrong for the Yankees. (”Oh no! The count is 3-0! DFA him!”). Trolls or ledge-jumpers, doesn’t matter. Sometimes when I wake up in the morning, and I see the Yankees lost, I just don’t feel like going through all the comments here, because so few of them actually make sense (and no, I don’t mind the enthusiastic in-game celebrations, e.g. “SHELLEYYYYY!”, those are actually fun to see most of the time
) )
There should be discussion on these boards. I can even see the argument of some saying “rested Joba over tired Mo” today. Not that I fully agree, but I think the argument has its merit (Note: it does NOT have merit when it is posted in the “OMG Joe is soooooooooooooo stoopid” form).
It’s a game of chance. Just last week Mo was unhittable. If he K’s the side today after his day of rest, we proclaim Torre a bullpen genius (well, maybe not, but you get my point). I wonder if the extreme-pro-youth stance of some is born out of reactionism against Torre; Torre always goes for the experience (but, nice job today Mr. Ramirez!), so some have come to calling Torre out on that and reacting by always going for the young guns. I wonder…
Mo’s not done. Call me when his K/9 rate is down and BB/9 and HR/9 rates are way up. (btw, does anyone know of a site which has a breakdown of percentages of types of hits (line drives, ground outs, etc)? Or is my use of BaBip in the game thread completely off line? Funny, I think he might have been having one of his best years if that stat this year was the same as his career numbers)
Feel free to comment.
mo has not been unhittable all year. he’s got a 3.5 era. i it looks he’s lost the kind of movement on the cutter he had before.
he hasn’t looked like the same pitcher all year.
Seattle lost, so no lost ground today to Seattle or Boston. Now it’s time to take care of business and exact a little revenge on Detroit for last year.
randy l, I didn’t say “all year”. I meant the series in Toronto. His April was not good (irregular workload), true, and in general, he just didn’t look very good today. But that’ll happen occasionally, to anyone.
Do pitchers ever admit they are hurting? Especially in a free agent year? All I know is Rivera now has three bad outings in a row and today the balls were hard hit. I know he has a history of poor August performances so it is best to give him a day or two off and try again.
wouter-
something isn’t right because he’s not getting swings and misses the way that he used to. i don’t have any stats to back that up. i just know what my eyes are seeing. mariano does not approach hitters the same way he used to. i was hoping it was just an ugly duckling phase he was going through learning the two seam fastball,but while it helps sometimes ,overall this new approach isn’t working.
when he goes into a game now, you expect baserunners. he’s so cool under pressure he’s still good, but he seems to be hit much more than he ever was before. his velocity is still good so i don’t think he’s losing it by any means. i really think he’s made a concession to hitters that he doesn’t have to make. i think he’d be better off going with mostly cutters the way that he used to.
Rivera is getting old. It’s that simple.
I think Jack Clark’s brother, Jim, is on to something: “Do pitchers ever admit they are hurting? Especially in a free agent year?”
I have the utmost respect for Mariano and hope he isn’t hurt, but I’m skeptical. At the least, he needs a rest.
By the way, a ridiculous fact the other day on the broadcast… Don Mattingly played several games early in his career at second and third base, and one of the people who bumped this Yankees legend from the first-base sack was Jim’s brother, Jack Clark.
He had 40 k’s and 2 walks, in h is last 46 innings, leading up to this week. Not dominating? He blew a save for the first time in 4 months Monday night. He got hit hard once in four months……today.
Folks, we see this every year about this time of year from Mariano.
For the doom and gloom crowd….I guess you can keep predicting that, “something is wrong with him” or, “he is done”, and one of these years you will be right.
However, I have a hard time believing the guy who blew away Rios, Thomas and Wells a week ago is “done”.
He also isn’t hurt. If he was, he wouldn’t be in there.
He just got beat. Its baseball. It happens.
Mo will be fine. If he is the only “problem” on this team, they are winning the World Series this year because he’s not a problem.
Being realistic about a 38 year old Rivera isn’t doom and gloom.
A 30 pitch outing takes a toll on him at this age.
He’s not the same guy he once was.
He’s the same age he was 5 days ago, when he was going through a two month period when he was unhittable.
When people call for him to be replaced by Edwar or Joba, like they were in the game thread, that’s doom and gloom to me.
He has thrown a lot of pitches over a 3 or 4 day period at other points in the season and was still dominating.
He just didn’t locate today. I don’t care how rested somebody is, if they don’t locate, hitters will take care of business.
Last Monday, Frank Thomas said he was “better than ever”. You mean to tell me, 10 days later, he isn’t? Sorry, I am not buying it.
Mariano is fine. You can’t hit for 9 of the 10 innings of the game and expect a win. Shelley had a clutch hit to get them back in the game but, it wasn’t meant to be.
They have lost no ground in the WC race the last two days and are still within shouting distance of the division.
Just gotta tee it up for the next series and move on. All you can do this time of the season.
It is quite obvious that Rivera isnt even close to the pitcher that he used to be. He now has the same hits to innings pitched when he used to have like 20 less hits then innings pitched. He will have games where he retires the side on 10 pitches but he will not fool the teams in the american league east that have seen him millions of times. He never goes up the ladder or on the outside corner, the batters know exactly what the pitch is and where it will be. On days like today he had to use the changeup or a different pitch. He isnt going to be able to get by on 1 pitch. Today was a terrible game to blow after they just tied the game. 1 run fine but then the homerun that was smoked. When Huff hits the ball like that you know he had nothing.
“He’s the same age he was 5 days ago, when he was going through a two month period when he was unhittable”
Is the concept of stamina a foreign one to you?
With passing age comes loss of stamina. That is what we are seeing.
sj44-
the numbers don’t lie. a 3.5 era is uncharacteristically high. relievers get released with eras below that. to just say everything is fine isn’t being proactive.i’m saying something very specific and that is that i believe he’s making a strategic error in throwing the two seam fastball so much. i think by throwing it so much he’s losing the cutter. i’m basing this just on what i see on tv watching hitters react to it. he does not seem to get many swing and misses on the cutter .
SJ44
Well said as the rest of your comments and as well as Pete.
When Yankees lose it’s as if you have fans always looking to point the finger at one of the players. I would rather put my trust in Mo a veteran of the game than the new guy. Mo said he was physically fine. Why would the guy lie about. He’s a great pitcher with a passion for the game. The guy feels bad enough and not trying to make any excuses. I call that a class act. Leave the guy alone. We lost and we waited too late to try to come back. Move on to the next game and be done with it.
I hate for anyone to try to call for Mo’s head for someone who has done so much for this team and still has that Yankee passion.
Peter,
Could it be that they have something on Rivera. The O’s came into town fresh off being accused of stealing signs in Boston. Maybe someone has picked up something on Rivera-no one else has hit him over the last few months, then these guys come in here and hit everything he throws up there.
bbgate,
“Could it be that they have something on Rivera. The O’s came into town fresh off being accused of stealing signs in Boston. Maybe someone has picked up something on Rivera-no one else has hit him over the last few months, then these guys come in here and hit everything he throws up there.”
You may not have seen the Cleveland game that MO almost blew. He has not looked right the past three outings. I didn’t get to see today’s game because of work but will defer to the others here who have said so.
Many have written him off before and until his effectiveness goes for much longer than 3 outings I still believe in MO.
captains corner-
in the regular season, mariano throws a cutter, a four seam fastball,and a two seam fastball. that’s it.
the cutter used to be unhittable even when everyone knew it was coming ,so one pitch wasn’t a problem then. as far as location , mariano does go up the ladder with the four seam fast ball. he does go inside on righties with the two seam fastball to set up the cutter away.he does occasionally throw two seam fastball away to lefties.
but the fact remains his cutter doesn’t seem to be what it once was. i think it’s because he’s throwing these other pitches too much of the time.
for those of you who play golf. do know many good players who can turn the ball right and left at will with accuracy. pitching is no different. there are not many pitchers who can do it. when they can their name is pedro or johan.
my opinion is that mariano needs to live and die with the cutter. if he’s lost it , he needs to work on getting it back.
What loss of stamina? He has pitched less innings, at this point of the season, than he has at this point last year.
Ironically, at least going into this week, he had also thrown less pitches this season. If anything, they have been overly protective of Mariano and that didn’t help him earlier in the year.
He got on his run when they started using him more. Clearly, you have to balance his use but, he still has to pitch. That’s when he is most effective.
His ERA is high based on two outings. Today and the Red Sox game in April when he gave up the 4 run lead. Take two outings, and 8 earned runs out of the mix, and its a whole different ERA.
I think folks just remember the bad outings because they are few and far between. Its always been the case with Mariano.
The guy pitched for four months with an under ONE ERA. Four months!
He has had two bad outings and he’s not the same guy? Sorry, I don’t believe it.
It happens to him every time around this point of the season.
He’s going to have a lot more than a couple of bad games to show me he has lost it or isn’t the same guy.
How was his cutter in Toronto last week and in Cleveland Friday night, when he blew guys away? He was GREAT until Sunday afternoon. Even then, one hard hit ball.
Monday, no hard hit balls. Today, he got whacked.
Look at his numbers from May 1 until Sunday afternoon. He was unhittable. Almost a strikeout to innings pitched, 2 walks, an under one ERA and 18-18 in save opportunities. That’s vintage Mariano.
Last week, Frank Thomas said he was “better than ever”, after blowing away Rios, Wells, and Thomas.
So, is that his stuff is gone in one week of play, or did he just have a couple of bad outings? I think its the latter not the former.
I can’t see how the guy lost it in a couple of days, when was dominating from late April to early August.
Doesn’t this happen every year? Mo blows a couple of saves early in the season then a couple in the middle of the season. Why is everyone worried?
“What loss of stamina? He has pitched less innings, at this point of the season, than he has at this point last year.”
It’s not about total IP. It’s about usage patterns. He was in for 30 pitches on Sunday.
Mo never had down periods until he hit his mid 30s. He has had them virtually every year since recently. It’s really indisputable.
sj44-
after looking more closely at the numbers you gave maybe you’re right and that’s it’s just the bad luck of two bad outings. mariano’s next few outings are going to be scrutinized that’s for sure. i’m going to be looking at pitch selection myself. i still don’t like the mix.
SJ44 is so full of himself; all he does is mix assertion with pseudo stats. i.e. “Mariano is fine…You think he’s not fine? Sorry, I don’t buy it…If you take his earned runs out of his earned run average he has a 0.00 ERA!!!” right…
I’ve watched Mo with admiration since his post season appearances vs. Seattle in 1995, as a setup man for Wetteland in 1996, and as the premier closer in MLB from 1997 to the present. He is my most favorite baseball player since my youngster days of idolizing Mickey Mantle.
That said, to claim that Mo is the same dominant closer this season that he’s been in the past is wishful thinking. He IS 37 years old and lacks the stamina of his youth – like every athlete his age (save for those who can recover through use of PEDs).
I have watched almost all of Mo’s appearances – in person or on TV. He still has the same velocity, the control is close to what its been throughout his career. Obviously He doesn’t possess the stamina of his youth which sometimes affects his control, but the main difference I’ve noticed in Mo, at least in the past 2-3 seasons, is that he doesn’t “miss bats” as much. It tells me that his cutter has lost a little movement. In the past, even when he uncharacteristically missed location, the batter still couldn’t center his pitch because of the incredible late movement. Batters have hit more balls on the screws against him in the past few years – especially this year.
Mo “re-invented” himself 5-6 years ago when batters looked strictly for the cutter. As I said before, I think its time for Mo to come with something off speed. The cutter, 2-seamer and 4-seamer all sit around 92-9 ocassionally hitting 95. Hitters are timing his pitches much better than in the past and without the late life, are making more solid contact.
I believe he was experimenting with a sinker in S.T., but throws it rarely. Imagine if Mo comes of with something off speed to disrupt the hitters timing, prevent them from sitting on his 92-94 speed . Just having hitters worry about something between 84-88 mph would make the fastballs so much more effective!
BTW, the O’s are one of Mo’s toughest opponents (3.26 ERA lifetime in 91 IPs) so resting him today in favor of Viz or Joba wouldn’t have been far-fetched.
Mariano is the backbone that this team cannot win without. There. I said it. But he is also an aging reliever who will, and has to some extent already, begin to diminish. It happens to everyone. It will happen to him.
But this is not to suggest the inane. There’s no need for Joba or Edwar or anyone else to replace him. On the other hand, it’s probably similarly counterproductive to treat him with fanboy worship rather than sober assessment. Which means giving him rest when he needs it. Which means watching him carefullly when he goes through a patch like this.
Amazed at the number of people ready to toss Mo under a bus.These are the same people who’d take the bat out of Mattingly, O’Neill, Jeter or A-Rod’s hands in the 9th. This is arguably the greatest reliever in the history of the game, with a long track record. Do people still expect the sheer dominance/brilliance of 96-03? As pointed out before, he’s been terrific for the last 4 months with that impressive performance against Rios, Thomas, and Wells (a notorious yankee killer) just last week. Mo will be FINE. People need to chill out. Appreciate him now because he will be very hard to replace (no, don’t even think of putting joba there)
Mariano is still a good pitcher. That being said he is also not the pitcher he was a few years ago. The last few days and this season have proven this. (Hits to innings and a 3.5 ERA are not elite numbers anymore) He is not invincible and not always a sure thing like he was. I think age and mileage are catching up to him. Hopefully he remains the reliable pitcher he has been for most of the season. The Yankees need him.
Have to agree with Pat M. It is amazing how quickly Yankee ‘fans’ are willing to toss Rivera in the trash heap. You had better hope he’s healthy because if he’s not this season is already over. http://valentinesviews.blogspo.....ut-mo.html
latham joe-
how do you know that developing an off speed pitch won’t screw up his cutter? it’s not like you go to walmart and buy one and start to use it. his joints ,tendons, muscle memory are all in sync with throwing a cutter. supination/pronation changes are not easy for 38 year old bones to handle.
this is a question that pitching experts could go round and round on. my feelings are that the cutter was a god given talent that mariano has that no one else has. i wouldn’t mess with it by mixing in too many other pitches. he basically throws the two seam fastball to keep righties from cheating in. a four seam fastball up and in will do the same thing. i think he needs just two pitches, the cutter and the well located four seam fastball. i think he can keep them from cheating simply with location of the four seam fastball. most good change ups are turned over. i just don’t see rivera’s arm doing that move. it’s also why i don’t like the two seam fastball which will run more if you turn it over. he looks very uncomfortable throwing it.
we’re not going to get an answer here,but it’s worth watching in detail what strategy mariano is going to use. you can be sure other team’s advanced scouts will be watching.
all this said i’d be delighted if he had a great change that fooled hitters, but for all the reasons above, i don’t see it happening.