Pettitte making a move; the plan for Joba
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- August
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Andy Pettitte is 4-0 with a 2.25 ERA in his last four starts. Once 6-7, he is 10-7 and is the team’s best starter at the moment.
Hideki Matsui has hit in 12 straight and is up to .302.
You may have heard of this rookie right-hander Joba Chamberlain. His stats so far: 6 innings, 2 hits, 0 runs, 2 walks, 9 strikeouts. He’s thrown 78 pitches, 49 strikes.
The Yankees want Chamberlain to throw no more than 130 innings this season. He tossed 88.1 in the minors and 6 so far in the majors. So over the next 41 games, they can squeeze 36 innings out of him.
That cap doesn’t include the playoffs.
Why 130? Chamberlain threw only 89.1 innings at Nebraska in 2006 and didn’t sign in time to play in the minors. The Yankees sent him to Hawaii for winter league and he got 37.2 innings. So all told in 2006, he got in 127 innings. But there was a four-month gap between his seasons.
Studies have shown that young pitchers develop arm trouble when their workloads dramatically increase from one season to the next. Gradual steps are safer. With a prospect of Chamberlain’s caliber, the Yankees aren’t going to take any foolish chances.
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on Saturday, August 18th, 2007 at 1:20 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
We can thank Billy Conors & Nardi Contreras for this I heard they make the pitching program schedules. Again for the Yankee fans that want Joba night after night in the pen & wanna tear their hair out because of it, tough, this organization that finally has a plan for the new era and it’s a damn good one.
Well if 1. The Yankees make to the playoffs, 2. Farnsworth by a micracle of God gives the Yankees10-12 good apperances, then Joba might make it thru the 11 games playoff season .Good nite, Peter, thank you for your reporting
If we win in October, can we make Nardi Contreras the MVP?
Assuming the Joba reaches that plateau and the Yankees make the playoffs, will Joba be on the playoff roster??
E-ROC: yes
Assuming the Joba reaches that plateau and the Yankees make the playoffs, will Joba be on the playoff roster??
I think that was implied.
Anyway, I guess this means that they don’t intend to have Joba competing for a rotation spot next spring, since his innings cap will probably be closer to 150 than 200. I guess we can aim for him joining the rotation in June.
Everyone in the Yankee Universe must be overjoyed with the gift that God dropped in their lap. I have to temper my glee because I don’t want to tempt the fates, but dang Joba is one badass pitcher.
What makes it even more startling is that he’s doing what “Game Over” Gagne has been unable to do. Their pain is definitely our pleasure.
Peter,
What does this mean for Hughes next year? I know the plan was to get him to 180 innings for this year. The injuries blew that out of the water.
Having K-Ram around with no rules will allow the Yanks to preserve Joba’s innings to include postseason work.
K-Ram? I like it!
Kram!
The Yankees can have a stacked bullpen of young pitchers who can go multiple innings next season: Ramirez, Ohlendorf, Britton, White, etc. who can shadow Joba and Hughes to minimize their aggregate IP.
It’s not out of the question that Mussina could be a long reliever next season.
Kevin Whelan looks like he has got his act together. Maybe he will make the roster next spring.
I know its unconventional but what are the odds the yanks go with 6 starters next year – wanger, hughes, joba, kennedy, moose, and clemens or pettitte? yeah, i know its not done that way and yeah, i know moose wouldn’t like it but it would limit the youngsters innings plus give wang’s nail more time to heal between starts.
Moose or Clemens won’t be here next year (I’m guessing moose will be traded to the NL)
K-Ram is Edwar Ramirez’s nickname in SWB,the RF line fans in SWB actually have signs calling him K-Ram I didn’t understand it until I saw his Bugs Bunny change up it’s nasty as hell on sluggers especially when he has control of his fastball.
“It’s not out of the question that Mussina could be a long reliever next season.”
It would not be a stretch to see Mussina as a reliever for the 2007 Playoffs.
If Hughes keeps pitching well he could earn the 4th slot in the playoff 4 man rotation. For all the heat Moose has taken from the fans, I think he can be come a great long man(extra innings/etc) for the Yankees in the playoffs. He’s done it before and well in the playoffs…people forget because of their hate for Moose but we don’t win Game 7 of 03 ALCS with out Mike Mussina.
Here’s an excerpt from about Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS.
*Unsung Hero
Mike Mussina. In the first relief appearance of his major league career, Mussina took over for an ineffective Roger Clemens in the fourth inning with no outs and runners on first and third and the Red Sox leading 4-0. He proceeded to strike out Jason Varitek and then induced Johnny Damon to ground into an inning-ending double play to keep the Yanks’ deficit at four runs. He then pitched two more scoreless innings, allowing the Yankees to stay within striking distance.*
For that alone I will never hate or name call Mussina, that kind of stuff is reserved for Carl Pavano type pitchers.
Global Warming–Mike Mussina would be the perfect reliever in the bullpen because he would only have to face the order 1 time instead of 2 or 3 times. He struggles and labors to get through the order the second or third time.
Moose isn’t getting traded to the NL. He’s a 10-5 guy and has a full NTC.
He’s not going anywhere. Grin and bear it for one more season. Perhaps he’ll turn it around and pitch like he’s capable of pitching.
Also, there is zero chance they will go to a 6-man rotation and Moose isn’t going to the pen.
In the long run, “Joba’s rules” will hurt the 2007 Yankees, namely their bullpen. Let’s say Joba pitches an inning every time he makes an appearance and rests the next day from here on in. According to my calculations, he would be in only 21 of the Yankees final 40 games (21 IP in this stretch, 27 IP total). This is not enough for his talent and this overprotection could be the reason why the Yankees don’t make the postseason for the first time since 1993 (or 1994 if you want to count the strike-shortened season).
The bullpen outside of Mo, Vizcaino, and Joba is garbage (Villone and Farnsworth) or barely M.L.B.-experienced (Henn and Ramirez). Therefore, there will ultimately have to be times when Joba will have to pitch in back-to-back games. If Joba is not used in back-to-back games multiple times, the Yanks will miss the postseason. They are not getting in with two solid guys and an overprotected/ underused phenom cuz that’s only 3 positives out of 7. They’ll need half of those weaker 4 to step up regardless of what Joba does.
I don’t wanna hear any cr ap about Joba’s “future”. His future is already being jeopardized by him pitching out of the bullpen. If he gets hurt as a reliever when he is meant to be a starter for the long term/ run, that’s just as bad as if he gets hurt pitching two straight days. You’ll all cry “He should’ve never been a reliever!” Oh b.t.w. let’s not forget the reason why Joba is even in Yankee pinstripes: Cashman is such a bad g.m., he couldn’t even get a reliever or two via free agency and/ or trade besides Vizcaino which was more of a dumping of R.J. than wanting Vizcaino. Too busy getting caught up in trying to outdo Boston he badly lost at (Igawa).
The Yanks have a dozen games through 8/30 against good teams. They need to use Joba in 8 of them, not the maximum 6 I project him to be used under his rules. The team and its success is more important than him.
If the Yanks miss the postseason by a game, sorry, you will have to deal with the fact that the reason is they underused Joba all because of some paranoia over him getting hurt and Cashman should be fired for it.
Oh b.t.w. since when is Joba immune to injury outside of overuse? He could slip on grass, catch a line drive, tear his hamstring like Hughes did, etc. So spare me all your drivel about how the Yanks can’t overuse him. If he gets hurt, well Cashman should’ve made a deal for a reliever or two so Joba wouldn’t have to be called up to begin with, shouldn’t he have? For all his “stockpiling” of pitchers.
A couple more things:
If Mo gets hurt, Joba has to be the closer or the set up man for closer Vizcaino, period, end of story, case closed.
If Vizcaino gets hurt, the Joba Rules are thrown out the window. If he has to pitch > 36 IP so be it.
If both get hurt, the Yanks are effed but that’s alot less likely.
You don’t put up a white flag because “Joba can’t pitch more than 36 innings”.
That’s a lot of gibberish in one post.
First off, if you have paid attention recently, you would know that they do intend on using Joba on back-to-back days once he gets accustomed to his new role and they feel he is ready for it.
Pete said a week ago that the current Joba rules would be for the next 7-10 days and slightly increase his workload from there.
And secondly, have you seen how the two major arms at the deadline are doing with their new teams?
Gagne is getting shelled with Boston and Dotel is on the DL. Boy, I don’t know what the Yanks are going to do without them!
It wasn’t worth giving up Melky/Kennedy for a rental like Gagne or Dotel and now Cashman looks like a genius based on how those guys are doing with their new clubs.
They are doing the right thing with Joba. His future is indeed far too important to risk overuse these remaining 40 games – regardless whether they make the post-season or not.
And finally, Cashman isn’t getting fired. If anything, the early success and talent level of Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy is to Cashman’s credit and his overall plan to revamp the farm with young arms that he has implemented over the last couple of years.
Deal with it. Cashman isn’t going anywhere.
Break the Joba Rules or watch the 2007 postseason on tv, Yankees -and happy jobhunting Cashman–Cashman isn’t going anywhere. I’m sorry to disappoint you. What the Yankees are doing with Joba is the right thing to do. His power arm doesn’t come around all that often and he just might be in the rotation next year. The Yankees have some relief arms in the minors in case something catastrophic happens like Ohlendorf, Britton, Kevin Whelan, Jose Veras, etc.
I think Mo getting hurt would be catastrophic regardless of Joba Rules or not, especially this season.
From George King in the Post:
Kyle Farnsworth continues to act like a jerk.
Already this year he has shown up Torre and Jorge Posada on the mound, ripped Torre and pitching coach Ron Guidry for a lack of work and has pitched so badly he has morphed into a $5.25 million mop up man.
The boorish behavior continued in the Yankees’ clubhouse when reporters waiting near Jason Giambi’s locker blocked a clear path from the players’ lounge to the middle of the room.
After negotiating his way through, Farnsworth called the media, “Bleeping idiots.”
I agree with how Joba is being used. My concern is next year. If Cashman cant bridge the gap to Mo or god forbid Mo fades will he be tempted to use Joba as a releiver again? I love he makeup as a releiver so far…
I think Joba’s cap should be 150 IP, so it can be 180 next season.
bla bla bla bla bla bla bla
I am trying to make EQUAL sense to some of the eediot comments so far today….nobody in particular though, right ?
bla bla bla bla bla bla
Hmmmmm …. nobody seems to mention Barry Zito anymore.
The Yankees are the best team. Period.
They will win the World Series. There is nothing to discuss. Just watch the game.
Everything is perfect. Sing!
For those interested I read in the Post
* There will be a public memorial service held for Rizzuto at Yankee Stadium at a date to be determined.
Do you think Mo’s troubles could be stemmed from Joba’s success? Hear me out…
Mo is obviously an older (and still amazing) pitcher. The fans love him and cheer for him all the time. But suddenly, here comes this kid. He’s pitched in what, four games? and already has the entire stadium chanting his name so loud that the ground is actually shaking. Mo realizes this kid could be his replacement and starts to overthrow to prove he’s still got it. The result – disaster.
Thoughts?
PS – I still love Mo and believe he is the greatest closer of all time!!!
Uh, No.
Mo always has an August swoon. Mo will be fine.
The guy who wants Cashman fired and to break the Joba Rules is the same guy (under a different name of course. Its how he rolls) that wanted Jermaine Dye to replace Bobby Abreu, and has wanted Cashman fired all season.
They aren’t breaking the Joba Rules, Cashman isn’t getting fired, and they aren’t trading Bobby Abreu for Jermaine Dye. Next.
The team is fine. If the starters do their job, they will make the playoffs. If they don’t, they won’t. Its that simple.
The starters had pitched poorly on the homestand, which is why they lost 3 in a row. Pettitte righted the ship last night.
I don’t care how good your offense is, you can’t be 3-5 down by the third inning every night and expect to win.
They need the Rocket and Wang to do their thing the rest of the weekend and head west with some momentum.
Kat, I wouldnt go that far. But he has hit the upper 90s lately. I doubt it has much to do with Joba. I actually Mo would bow out gracefully when the time comes. With Mo right now it all control, hes not hitting his spots.
This just in from the NY Post on our buddie Krazy Kyle:
Kyle Farnsworth continues to act like a jerk.
Already this year he has shown up Torre and Jorge Posada on the mound, ripped Torre and pitching coach Ron Guidry for a lack of work and has pitched so badly he has morphed into a $5.25 million mop up man.
The boorish behavior continued in the Yankees’ clubhouse when reporters waiting near Jason Giambi’s locker blocked a clear path from the players’ lounge to the middle of the room.
After negotiating his way through, Farnsworth called the media, “Bleeping idiots.”
MY ONLY COMMENT: IF WE HAD TO HAVE A PUTZ, WE COULDN’T IT HAVE BEEN J.J.?
Whatever that guy’s name was……Joba won’t be the closer if something were to hypothetically happen to Mariano. We are not, and should not, sacrifice the future for a somewhat decent chance at making the playoffs this year. Mariano goes down, the Yanks find an answer, whether that may be the Viz, Farnsworth, bringing Bruney back and giving him another shot, etc. The answer isn’t putting extra strain on Joba and ruining what may be better chances than this year of actually winning a championship that are sure to come.
Mussina’s not going anywhere, although I think (and hope) this is finally it for the Rocket. There won’t be a six-man rotation either, god forbid that throws Mussina off his rhythm.
Good question on where the “innings” plan with Joba and Hughes ends up next year. I have to think the people who came up with and, so far, have stuck to the Joba plan this year will be able to cross that bridge when we come to it.
Kat- That is pretty rediculous thought. This is the same Mariano has turned Louis Vzcaino into a shutdown setup man. If anything, Mariano wants Joba to become a great pitcher as it would help our chance at 27 increase dramatically
THis is from ken Rosenthals latest column on Joba..it is a scouts take on him:
“A pro scout says …
Mammoth physical presence. Chop off his head and he looks like an advanced aged Roger Clemens. Athleticism in delivery exudes even though he’s a big man. Good delivery. Powerful arm. Consistently hit 95-99 on the radar gun for seven innings as a starting pitcher. Fastball can be straight up in zone. Nasty when down and located. Two types of breaking balls. Slider and curve are defined. Close to being wipeout type breaking balls and coupled with the heat they intrigue. Solid changeup that he neglects. Should throw more. Delicate touch on changeup. Verlander-ish-type stuff. Small health concerns. Missed some time earlier in the year. If it all fell apart for this kid he’s Jon Broxton. That’s a happy soft landing.
Hey all – It was just a thought. My dad actually brought it up to me, and I argued the same arguments you guys are. Then, I was out for a run and thought about it and through it might (and I emphasis might) hold some water. Who knows. I agree that whatever it is, Mo will be fine.
Has anyone ever figured out why pitchers get hurt a lot more now when they pitch a lot less than 50 years or more ago? Is it because 12 and 13 year olds are throwing curves and sliders, instead of waiting till they are college age at least? I remember that’s what Bert Blyleven thought anyway.
Jimmy, I think it’s a combination of that (kids throwing breaking balls at a young age) and just the fact that many more pitchers blew out their arms earlier in their careers and we just never heard about them. The best pitchers back then were always the healthiest ones too. There were no Mark Priors or Rich Hardens or Eric Gagnes back then.
did anyone else think it was a bit wasteful to use Joba with a 4-5 run lead? if today is a close game, they may regret that decision. i will no longer enter a game thread during a game, so i don’t know if this was discussed.
still, little to complain about.
Good game for Andy Phillips too. I was happy to see him hit that double, b/c he hasn’t done anything offensively for weeks.
going forward though, Giambi needs to be in the lineup every day, with Duncan, Betemit, and Phillips sharing 1B. Duncan and Damon can also get mixed around in the OF 1-2 times per week as well.
hmm–It was addressed.
Basically, there are these reasons for having him in:
He needed work. Relievers need work to keep fresh, and Joba hadn’t pitched in four days.
The Viz pitched yesterday. Resting him ensures he can pitch today.
Edwar and Henn are also available for today.
“After negotiating his way through, Farnsworth called the media, “Bleeping idiots.â€? ”
As much as many hate Fransworth, he is right on this.
Most of these media guys are “bleeping Idiots”.
Go check with A-Rod and he will second that.
Make no mistake about it, Mariano is still the most trusted closer in ALL of baseball.
Only last week he blew hitters away with heat and his signature cutter.
Some some reason he’s human and subject to a rare bad outing and can’t be faulted for it.
He still exemplifies Yankee pride and class.
“He needed work. Relievers need work to keep fresh, and Joba hadn’t pitched in four days.”
yeah, like i said, not much to complain about. the 4 days of rest is a good reason. i just hate to use such an awesome weapon in anything but the more important situations.
then again, i probably would have just sent Pettitte back out there
WE need to recognize the fact that Mo can not be super human for ever. We have to recognize the fact that it is only a matter of time he will not be same as before. I do not think that time has come yet, but he will slowly lose his effectiness in the next couple of years.
They had to pitch Joba yesterday, IMO. He needs the work as he adjusts to his role in the bullpen. Too much time between outings isn’t good. He ends up having to do a bullpen to get his work in and you lose him for a day or so without getting him into a game.
I like the one inning of work as opposed to two innings because you hate to lose him for two days.
I also like the fact, regardless of the score, they put him out there against the middle of the Tigers order. It was fun to see him go right after Sheffield-Ordonez-Guillen-Pudge. He won’t face 4 tougher hitters in a row the rest of the season and he came through it nicely.
The game threads, sadly, have turned into muck. Maybe when school starts again, they will improve as the kiddies will be away from the computer more often.
FYI, Daniel McCutcheon (another excellent prospect who won 1-0 last night for Trenton) taught Joba his changeup this year while they were both at Tampa.
Next to Edwar, McCutcheon has the best changeup in the organization, IMO.
SJ great posts.. You are correct if the yankeed starters are just decent this is a playoff team…it the Yanks starters keep things to 3 or 4(on occasion) runs for 6 or 7 runs they are going to win a ton of games. If they simply can have low to mid 4 ERA’s they will win a ton of games.
Having Joba has reduced Viz’s work load a bit and in the long run that should help.. Kyle is the mop up guy, and to be honest that brings a smile to my face….
Starters go a decent 6 and they win a ton of games………………………………..
Kat:
Not for a second is Mariano Rivera concerned about a kid who has thrown 6 innings. Not for a second.
The guy has 4 rings and will could be a unanimous Hall of Famer.
joba pitched 118 in his first season at nebraska
Stuart,
I thought it was very difficult to get a job at the Stadium, even janitorial ones.
when was the last time mariano had an august swoon that resulted in a 3.5 seasonal era? something is different this time and it’s probably age and mileage.as has been pointed out, if you take two games out of the equation he’s been pretty good. the problem is that those games are in the equation. he’s not lights out this year. he should be used carefully and in the right spots.
joba couldn’t have arrived at a better time.
I just think Rivera can’t go two innings often anymore. He’s not getting any younger. It does or would help to have somebody with a closer’s mentality to pick up the slack in case Rivera doesn’t close. Torre already said Joba won’t be closing any games. I don’t understand why he would say that though.
randy l,
Agreed that Joba is needed, but to say Mo’s last 3 games (the only part of August where he has “swooned”) are the cause of his ERA is ridiculous. Shame on you! lol.
Mariano had an ERA of 10+ for the month of April.
http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/indiv.....statType=2
Baltimore just has Mariano’s number.
Random replies:
–If the Yankees miss out on the playoffs by one game, I for one am not going to blame the Joba Rules. I’ll blame a 21-29 start in April and May.
–I think a big reason pitchers get injured more often these days is because they have to put more stress on their arms and shoulders in order to keep up with the hitters, who, since the 1980s, have all gotten bigger, stronger, and more powerful.
–Every year Rivera goes into a swoon, and every year people say it’s because he’s finished.
you missed the point mel.
forget all the excuses from everyone. the fact is his era is about 3.5. that’s not good.
i don’t care when he gave up the runs. he gave them up. he’s not the same pitcher he was a few years ago. that’s got to be taken into account on how he’s used.less would be better, but not so little he’s rusty. torre is going to have to tread a fine line with rivera.