Then the kindly manager was told by the wicked GM that the heroic pitcher needed to get many days off because he was only 21
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- August
- 21
Ashley, one of our many alert readers, sent long this photo of Joba Chamberlain reading to kids while he was at Nebraska.
I heard that Joba accompanied Brian Cashman on a recent trip to a Boys and Girls Club in the Bronx. Hopefully he keeps up such charitable works.
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on Tuesday, August 21st, 2007 at 5:26 am by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
I think it’s safe to say the Joba rules cost them last night.
I’ve just read a news regarding the touching story about Joba Chamberlain.
I love this guy very much.
I enjoy watching this guy pitching, his pitching is a combination of Art and Power.
I believe that if Yankees get in the playoff, Chamberlain will be the key as a handover pitcher.
go Chamberlain go, go Yankees go!!
i actually kinda disagree that the joba rules cost the yankees the game last night. granted, if torre would somehow have been convinced to put joba in at the START of the seventh, i can see the reasoning. joba/farns/mo to finish the game probably would have been game over (although farns did have a shaky eighth, so who knows). . .
but assuming torre was sticking with hughes into the seventh regardless of whether joba was available, i don’t think it would have made a huge difference if joba came into the game in relief (which, mind you, breaks another joba rule). he probably allows just one of the inherited runners to score (instead of both plus an extra one like viz), so the game’s tied at 4-4 and who knows what happens after that.
anyways, it’s all in the past. torre did his best with what he had, although i suppose in hindsight hughes should have been pulled after six. whatever. the yankees have it all to do against kelvim and lackey, so let’s hope moose and andy string together a couple of really solid outings. one thing’s for sure – NO MORE WALKS / NO MORE GETTING BEHIND ON HITTERS. that was a big problem last night. go yanks!
Neil B –
I agree with you in that I don’t think the “Joba rules” cost the game last night either. First of all, there is no proof that Joba would have been lights out. just because he has been. Mo usually is and he isn’t perfect, either. You can’t make that assumption.
If Vizcaino comes in and does what he’s been doing, none of the Torre-bashing would have gone on. It sounds to me like it’s the same old story of not throwing strikes, and last I knew, Torre can’t do that no matter who he throws in there.
It’s absolutely amazing to me how the temperature here changes so quickly. Before the game, all is peaches and cream; the game doesn’t go well, and it’s doom and gloom once again. It’s a rollercoaster ride. You’ve got to expect two steps forward, 1/2 to 1 steps back. It’s the big picture that matters.
I do agree that the next two games have the potential to be very difficult for the Yankees. And, based on the posts of some people here, the Yankees shouldn’t even bother to show up tonight and tomorrow. But you really don’t ever know for sure how these games are going to turn. Keep a positive attitude. There’s still a long way to go.
When was the last time Viz had a really poor outing?? He was due for it and that’s baseball. Hughes pitched well enough to win (good stuff) and poor enough to lose (5 walks) but the Yankees ran out of gas and lost the battle.
They can still win the war if the Yankees offense continues to run on 8 cylinders and the starters continue to give them a chance to win.
Not using Joba is irrelevant. The so-called ‘Joba-rules’ are critical constraints to ensuring the health and progress of one of the top pitching prospects in all of baseball. If needed, he will go tonight.
I saw the game, I believe it was well managed and the Yankees played tough. They just lost, but live to fight it out tonight.
Doreen-
Good points! I agree with you. I certainly will watch the following two games even though the chance to win is not good. But you never know what will happen.
Huge, huge, huge loss, did I say HUGE loss? Now with Mussina and Pettitte going against their 2 best pitchers you’re facing a sweep and in danger of falling 7 games back of Boston and 3 1/2 behind Seattle. This is a huge loss. If the Yankees don’t make the playoffs which is now a very uphill battle to say the least this game will be looked on as the nail in the coffin. It was theirs to be had, but sadly this is still a relatively young team in many respects and hopefully the young pups will learn from their mistakes. With youth you get the good with the bad and you also get stupid rules so you have to expect games like this, the problem is that the Yankees can’t afford games like this if they want to make the playoffs. Oh well!
Not for nothing, but I thought the game that would put the nail in the coffin was the loss to Detroit last week. Or was it the one where Wang was ineffective? Or, no, I think it was the other Wang game at the Stadium where he lost the lead late in the game.
You get my drift.
The Joba Rules didn’t cost them the game last night. Torre did. The day before, he got a struggling Wang out of there after 6, went to the bullpen, and they won the game.
Hughes was throwing 89 MPH fastballs in the 6th inning. He may have only thrown 80 pitches, but he was gassed. Between being home and really having to dig deep to get out of the second inning, there wasn’t anything left in the tank. He did what he could.
He couldn’t throw his curve or changeup for strikes all night. Especially from the stretch.
So, you have a 21 year old, whose fastball is down and can’t throw any of his other pitches for strikes and you have him start the 7th with a 1 run lead. That’s mistake #1.
Mistake #2 was staying with him after the leadoff guy reached base. How many times have they taken it, “batter to batter”, as Torre would say, from the 7th inning on? Instead, you have a kid, who has major problems throwing strikes from the stretch, still in there and he does what he was doing all night, walks another hitter pitching from the stretch. That’s mistake #2.
At that point, you know its trouble because the weakness of this bullpen is allowing inherited runners to score.
Viz? Bad night. Compounded by the fact that he was scratched Sunday because of “soreness” and now we have to worry Torre hasn’t blown out another relief pitcher. I guess we have to hope pitching in 9 games this year when the Yankees had leads of 5 runs or more hasn’t caught up with him.
Phil Hughes has a lot of potential. “Potential” being the key word. He is also feeling the affects of missing 3 months of the season. His fastball is way down (velocity-wise), he can’t locate his breaking ball and off speed stuff consistently and he has at least one mental meltdown inning per game. He also is a 70-75 pitch guy right now.
Go back and chart his starts, especially since his return. I have. When he hits 70 pitches, he hits the wall. That’s not unexpected, given the time he has missed.
The game was lost by having him start the 7th. From that point forward, they were playing uphill and the Yankees don’t do that well against this team.
Phil is like every other rookie pitcher. He’s a work in progress. That’s not a bad thing. But, as a veteran manager, you can’t have that kid out there in the 7th inning. You take him out, having him feel good about being able to keep the team in the game, and with the lead, and go to you bullpen.
It was another in game blunder and it ended up costing them the game.
Hughes is in a tough spot. They need him to win games and he may not be able to do that on a consistent basis the rest of the way. Its unfortunate and its unfair but, he has to be better than he has shown. He’s not pitching well enough to help this team make the playoffs.
Forget Sean Henn. By the 10th inning, with the bats cold again, they weren’t winning that game. The game was to be won in the 7th inning. Just like two of the Tigers games this past weekend. Instead of doing what he had been doing, Torre departed from the plan, and it cost them the game.
Now, the Yankees are in the worst possible position. Boston has Tampa Bay, Seattle won’t lose, and they need Mike Mussina to win a game. Not exactly where you want to be if you are the Yankees.
The Joba Rules? The LAST thing the Yankees need is to mess with this kids arm. If those are the rules, and you can’t win with what you have, that’s baseball.
There isn’t a game on the schedule that’s worth running the risk of abusing Chamberlain. If that means they don’t make the playoffs, so be it.
If they don’t make the playoffs, its not going to be because of the Joba Rules.
I’m all for having a positive attitude…AFTER tonight’s game. I agree 100% with SJ44’s assessment of Moose: the ultimate non-gamer. Is he ever…
Thank goodness Andy follows him and can provide stoppage.
PLEASE, I can’t take another season of the Moose-capades. He folds when the wind isn’t blowing kindly in his direction. Isn’t there any way he’ll admit he’s DONE and retire??
I know it’s still very, very early, but Hughes has been relatively ordinary for the majority of his starts. Does anyone know for sure that his velocity was normally around 95 MPH rather than topping out at 92?
All I can think is that his injury of course cost valuable time and that maybe he’s not 100% yet. Maybe he is even being cautious about pushing off with his legs due to the injury?
I’ll concede, SJ44, that Hughes should not have started the 7th. Still, if Viz was effective, they win the game. And you’re right about the inherited runners; the Yankees really don’t have a true “stopper,” not to be confused with “closer.” No one who can consistently come into a game with runners on base and shut down the other offense.
Ah the panic after one close loss around here is immense. They lost the game and a game in the standings. Same thing happenned on Thursday, it will happen other times too.
I said before this stretch of games that there are 26 games from Cleveland through Seattle that are grouped into two groups of 13 with off days before and after. I said they need to go 8-5 in both 13 game series to finish the tough stretch with a 79-61 record. Then get fat in the last 21, probably 14-7 at least. 93 wins should be good enough.
Anyway in this first 13 game stretch the Yankees are 7-4, so they just have to split the next two games to get to 8-5. They are right on schedule.
As for the games tonight and tomorrow, we concede nothing. I’m glad Joba is available to pitch in the game tonight, he and Edwar might be the only fresh pitchers in either bullpen. We’re winning tonight.
Usually I’m bashing Torre for his in-game moves but in this case I defend his use of Hughes in the 7th last night. Hughes was motoring along, his pitch count was respectable, he had shown very little ill effects from the poor 2nd inning. If I’m Torre I have him start the 7th and I allow him to pitch with the runner on. Hughes just didn’t execute, he didn’t throw strikes, and to compound it, Viz came on and had a meltdown that ensured their demise.
Torre didn’t lose this game, Viz and Henn had crap outings and they lost it.
Its not panic at all. Its frustration over seeing the same mistakes made from the bench when it comes to in game strategy from the manager. There isn’t any consistency to his decisionmaking.
Phil Hughes has never competed a 7th inning in his ML career. So, why is he out there? It made no sense.
Hughes has missed so much of the season, its a battle for him right now to have any consistency. That’s what happens when you miss so much time. When you see his velocity is down, his location is non-existent on his other pitches, and he has never pitched through the 7th inning in his ML career to date, it made no sense having him pitch the 7th.
Ironically, Torre had a chance to change it. Once the leadoff hitter reached, given Hughes’ problems from the stretch, you have to take him out. That was his out to wash away the initial bad decision. He chose not to do it and it cost him the game.
This bullpen works the best when they don’t inherit runners. Inherit one? Ok, fine. The tying run on second? They haven’t been good at it all year.
The frustration is, Torre never seems to learn from his mistakes. So much so, the organization gives him a prized arm with “instructions” attached to it. Probably because they know, if given the chance, he will abuse Chamberlain as he has done with just about every relief pitcher, except for Mo, in the 12 years he has been here.
You can play the schedule game all you want. Here is what matters……they are 3 games in the loss column behind the Mariners for the WC. They have 6 remaining road games against two very good teams. The Mariners, although on the road, don’t get Santana in their series in Minnesota.
Last night was a big game. They knew Boston and Seattle both won and they had to win last night. Had it in their grasps and didn’t get in done because of more of the same in game strategy from the manager.
That’s where the frustration from some of us sets in. He just never, ever learns from his mistakes.
The Franchise should not have gone out for the 7th. His gutsy 6 were enough. But thats baseball. Time to turn the page and move on.
But, that’s just it, he wasn’t cruising. He had already walked 4, was having trouble pitching from the stretch all night, had never pitched through the 7th inning in his career, and his velocity was way down in the 6th.
The warning signs were there that he was out of gas. It was the wrong night to push the envelope with him.
But, it is what it is now. The result ain’t changin’. Now, the Yankees have the uneviable task of asking Mike Mussina to win a game that matters. I’d rather have a root canal.
Let’s hope Minnesota can win tonight so this thing doesn’t begin to spiral in the wrong direction.
Are you kidding, you’d rather have a root canal over asking Moose to win a game?
Forget root canals, I’d rather ask, implore, challenge Moose to bring his A-game tonight.
The Yankees need to beat this d##n team, they are beatable!
I fully understand the Joba rules, and won’t argue on them one way or the other. Problem is, with 1st and 3rd in the 7th and a one-run lead, what you really needed was the K. You could hope for a DP, but a SF ties the game, and you really needed a K or two, esp. the K for the 2nd out. The best chance for the K was unavailable.
Viz needed to get out of it by giving up either no runs or just the one. He didn’t.
It was a typical Yankees-Angels game that we’ve seen since 2002. The Angels (pesky b****s) win because of their speed and a better bullpen. Since 2002, the Angels edge in the bullpen has been trouble for the Yanks.
I completely agree this team is beatable. They aren’t as good as the Yankees make them out to be when they play them.
I am serious 21. I prefer a root canal to watching Mussina pitch. He drives me nuts. Nibble, nibble, nibble. Complain to the umpires about the strikezone. Give up runs the half inning after his team scores. Make it a short, ineffective outing against good teams.
Its like water torture watching him work.
2-7 45 IP, 55 Hits, 28 runs allowed…..those are his numbers against .500 or better AL Teams this year.
I hope like heck he can reverse the trend tonight. They need to win this game. No excuses, no BS, no nothing.
This is a must win game and Mike Mussina has to pick up his teammates here. They have done it for him plenty of times this year. Its time he returns the favor.
every loss feels like the end of the world because of the hole the yankees put themselves in earlier in the season.
personally i don’t care about catching the red sox because of the energy it takes to overcome them and hold the lead right to the end. chances are in that scenario the pitching rotation is dictated by trying to win the division and it’d likely be a mess for the playoffs. i’d rather they win the wild card by 5 games and have time to get the rotation in sync for the playoffs.
seattle however is throwing a monkey wrench into those wishes. what’s up with them ? they are not that good. i keep waiting for them to get a 3-5 game losing streak and they just keep rolling along. to me the yankees versus seattle is the story i’m watching right now.
as far as hughes goes, why would anyone expect someone who never pitched in the major leagues to pitch a few games in the early season ,get hurt , miss most of the season , and then come back and be lights out. if they weren’t desperate for a fifth stater, he should be back in triple a to get in shape to throw more than 70 pitches.
why aren’t there hughes rules? he wasn’t ready to go more than 65 pitches when he first came up in the spring, and in my opinion that is why he was injured in the first place( that’s not hindsight.i objected vociferously on this blog before he was hurt) . he’s never been in shape to be a mlb starting pitcher all year. if that isn’t pitcher abuse i don’t know what is. that said, he’s there. he’s slowly getting into shape ,but he’s in over his head if the yankees are expecting a quality start each game. it’s not likely to happen.hopefully trying to do too much doesn’t set him back or injure him.
in short i don’t love what i see from hughes yet, but i don’t think i’ve seen an in shape hughes yet either.
joba is a different story. i liked what i saw from the first pitch. i think the joba rules are exactly right and they are doing a good job adhering to them.
the yankees are lucky to be back in it at all after the bad start. they are just going to have to fight hard every game to get to the playoffs. if they can do that while getting their rotation in sync for the playoffs they’ll have the edge to run the table and win the whole thing. that’s one way to create a playoff edge, but hopefully next year they do it the old fashioned yankee way of building up a 10-15 game lead so every game isn’t life or death.
You’re all making sense. I am just steeling myself for an outcome I don’t like one bit that has the Yanks missing the playoffs.
I can handle that as long as they do not break the Joba Rules along the way and don’t mess up Hughes in the process (and no, I don’t think they’ve come close to doing this except for his obvious injury in Texas.)
randy I, I agree wit you, there should be some Hughes Rules as the season goes to September.
Great points Randy.
Its what happens when you mail in the first 55-60 games of the season. You aren’t allowed an August swoon. You have to win every night, especially when your competitors are hot, and its tough to ask a kid as green as Hughes to be a factor in a pennant race.
Next year, when all of us discuss the season, can we all agree the first 50-60 games are important? If the Yankees don’t make the playoffs this year, it will be because of the first 50-60 games.
Also, and I am as guilty of it as anybody, we are asking WAY too much of Phil Hughes right now. He’s a 21 year old kid who is still learning how to pitch. Its so evident watching him in his starts. The mental meltdowns, which occur once a game, the lack of consistency from the stretch, the inability to maintain velocity, all stuff you learn in the minor leagues.
By blasting the kid through the system, out of necessity rather than design, he is tardy on all those finer points of pitching. The more you watch him work, the more it becomes clear this kid really needs more timein the minors before we start calling him “Franchise”. He just isn’t ready yet, no matter how much we may want him to be.
He’s lost too much of the season to injury to be effective, IMO. They are stuck using him because of the utter ineffectiveness of the other candidates for his spot in the rotation. The solution isn’t calling up another minor leaguer, with less experience (Kennedy). They have to use him but, and I’m not sure if that’s the best thing for his development. The major leagues is an awful tough place to learn on the job.
They need him to win now (completely unfair, IMO) because of the decline of Mike Mussina.
Its a tough spot for a kid to be in.
Hopefully, he is tough enough to handle it mentally because it may not be a smooth ride for him the rest of the season.
Moose will step it up big time tonight…watch and enjoy, ALL !
Randy: About Seattle, check their bullpen. 19-4 with 37 saves or so entering last night. Maybe, outside of Putz, you haven’t heard of these guys, but the five guys equate to the record listed above, and all five have ERAs under 3.50.
“I prefer a root canal to watching Mussina pitch”
“Its like water torture watching him work.”
it’s almost like he says,”let me see what kind of mess i can get in so i can use my superior intellect to weasel out of situations mere mortal average iq pitchers would have to use their lowly physical skills , like a plus 90’s fastball, to escape.”.
if he was a little dumber ,he would have been a lock for the hall of fame. he’s the ultimate over thinker.
This organization needs a’pitching guru’ to ensure all these young arms get the right training and instruction and guidance.Pry Rockin Leo from the O’s and make him that man.He can travel the bushes and create a master plan to optimize the talent that is emerging.Also,Gator,I love ya dude,but we need a more wisened head on that bench.
mike s.-
and putz has about a .5 whip. they must be doing something right there. it’s pretty late in the season to be lucky for that long. we need to focus our collective energy into putting a whammy on them.
Nardi Contereas is the pitching guru in this organization. He’s done a great job. So has Gil Patterson. They are fine at that end.
You can’t rush experience. Let’s remember, Phil Hughes was not penciled into the rotation for this year. He’s not supposed to be here.
He’s here because of the failure of Igawa, the decline of Mussina, and the fact they don’t have anybody in AAA who is ready to contribute at this level. They are going against the grain rushing the kid to the majors. Unfortunately, that means he learns on the job.
Learning on the job=losses in pennant races. That’s why teams want experience down the stretch.
There is no question the kid has a lot of talent. He seems to have a good makeup, although the mental meltdowns each start are a bit of a concerne.
However, he’s not even close to being ready because he isn’t able to consistently repeat the nuances of pitching needed to be successful.
That comes with more work in the minors and a full season of 150+ innings under his belt.
I hope they re-consider the plan for him next season. He should start the year in AAA and not even think about seeing the majors until after the AS Break.
He’s still a work in progress and he isn’t going to get better needing to win games at the ML level.
Its different from Joba. Not only does Joba have better stuff (and is a better pitcher), he only has to throw one, maybe two innings. Its much tougher to start at the ML level. That’s why we are seeing the growing pains with Hughes.
Unfortunately, since they have to win games, it ramps up the need for him to be better than he is right now. Its not easy.
That’s why you don’t see many 21 year old successful starters in MLB. Its a very tough gig.
The panic is unbelievable. SJ44, I don’t know if you follow Baseball America, Baseball Prospectus etc but most of the prospect websites thought Hughes should have started the season with the Yankees. As for last nights lost it’s only one loss, I too wanted the Yankees to win last night but in the grand scheme of things it’s only one loss. The Joba rules are in place because he was a starter converted into a reliever and he hasn’t pitched many innings as a pro yet. This is Hughes 3rd year as a pro therefore there are no Hughes rules. The Yankees will be fine and they will catch Seattle as Seattle plays the next 41 games or so with only 1 day off. I seriously doubt they can keep up the pace they currently are on. I also believe the Yankees will definitely win at least one game against the Angels with Andy pitching tomorrow and possibly two being that if Moose gives us six tonight Joba and Edwar can pitch again. Please stop with all the panicking, you make youself sound like a Red Sox fan when you do so.
Its not panic at all. Are you capable of distinguishing between concern and panic? I could care less what Baseball America thinks. Just because they have an opinion, doesn’t make it gospel. They also thought Craig Hansen would be the next great closer for the Red Sox. How’s that working out?
Perhaps, as Randy pointed out, Hughes not having “rules” is something they should re-consider. Look at his stuff after 70 pitches. It decline dramatically.
He was out for 3 months. He has never missed that much time in his career. It has set back his development. You can see it in every start.
Let’s recap his 4 starts since he returned from the DL.
Start #1. Couldn’t make it out of the 5th against the Royals. Melted down and once he hit 65-70 pitches, he was done. Excuse: His first start back. Ok, fine.
Start #2. Excellent outing vs. the Indians. Still wasn’t ready to go deep into the game though.
Start #3. Melted down against the Orioles, didn’t cover first base on a play, gave up 3 runs and couldn’t go deep into that game.
Start #4. Melted down in the second inning last night. Another 3 run inning. Walked 5, and had trouble pitching from the stretch all night.
You see the inconsistency? All I am pointing out is, the kid is not ready to win at this level yet. He’s still a work in progress and its tough to expect more out of him than he is giving. Especially, after missing so much of the season.
Its the ying/yang of dealing with young pitchers. You need to win to make the playoffs but, you have a kid who isn’t ready to do that for you yet.
Its not panic. Its having a baseball evaluation and discussion. That’s all it is.
raymagetic-
there’s no panic involved when someone is looking at hughes realistically and coming to the conclusion he’s being rushed a bit. if there is someone at baseball prospectus who has ever had any hands on experience in developing a pitcher, i’d like to hear it. will carrol is a good writer ,but he doesn’t have any playing or coaching experience , nor does he have an advanced sports medicine degree( but he did stay in a holiday inn last night).
anyone who’s worked with pitchers knows that hughes is pushing the envelope . i’m sure he wants it that way because he’s a competitor. just don’t expect too much.
there absolutely should be hughes’ rules . three pro years makes him a very young player.
my first rule for him would be that when his velocity drops, a call needs to be made to the bullpen because trying to do too much on a tired arm sets up all kinds of problems for the team and for his body.he’s still not in shape. anyone who thinks he is just isn’t paying attention.
I now understand how fans of college football powerhouses feel when their teams lose a game and they bleed over it the next day. For years, I have not been able to bring myself to even look at the sports section of the paper on a day after a Yankee loss. That empathetic feeling in comparison to the football example has always been there, I’m just much more aware of it now. Granted, I don’t expect the Yankees to win every game by any means, but I just HATE losses, especially like the one last night. Coming from behind twice the way we did makes for a huge disappointment in the end. But, being a member of the Yankee Optimists Club, I’ll keep it in perspective. Taking the next two games in Anaheim is no small task by any means, but it’s certainly possible. Moose was looking so much better his last few starts before this last one, so if he picks it back up and our offense clicks early, tonight can be a chance to get back on track.
Hughes is 21 years old.
Relax.
For a 5th starter you can’t do better.
a couple of points.. he gave up a weak hit to start the 7th after 80 pitches or so.. stop looking at the damn radar gun, clemens throws 90 mph, he seems to get guys out…
I do not understand how hughes endurance would not imporve after 3 or 4 starts!!!!!!
Joba rules do hurt, he appears to be there 2nd best reliever but is not always available, say it does not affect the team all you want but that is nonsense…I agree with the rules but do not state it does not hurt them….
In retrospect if Torre used Ramirez only 1 inning on sunday the Yanks could have used him last night.
When the angels and yanks play the yanks are the slow guys chasing after the ball the little guys keep away from them as they laugh.. That is what it looks like…
all your brain surgeons explain to me how the best offense in the league and statistically a great offensive team may not make the playoffs with a statistically decent pitching team and a good fielding team???The Yanks will score about 935 runs and may not make the friggin playoffs…………
hughes walked 5 or 6 angels something that is almost impossible to do…..britton rots in SWB as we continue to have 2 dead weight lefties.. if any trusts villone or henn in any meaningful situation you are delusional…
sj is the only one who charts pitches the yankee brass doesn’t!!!!!!!!
Sj if you think Hughes will start next season in AAA you lost my respect, no friggin chance… they will not have CLemens next yr. at a minimum and they are not wasting money on one of these older middle of the road starters who will want a long term commitment…There is no chance Hughes will not be with the big club unless he gets hurt…
You’re kidding yourself if you didn’t think the Yanks thought Hughes would be here at this point in the season.
He just has to get more consistent and once he he does. lights out
The Yankees thought Hughes would be here after 3/4 of a season of conditioning in AAA. Not after months of rehab.
And there is absolutely no chance that Hughes doesn’t start the yr in the rotation next yr.
You’re deluded if you think that will happen.
Randy, great point.
I’ll go one step further. There is a real simple explanation as to why his velocity isn’t able to be maintained…..he’s missed too much time this year rehabbing his injuries. As you accurately pointed out, he’s not in the shape he was earlier in the year. You can’t be when you spend 2+ months rehabbing.
His lower half isn’t powerful right now and he doesn’t get the same drive he did earlier in the year.
Go back and look at the Texas start and see how free and easy he was. The ball jumped out of his hand.
Now, watch his starts since he returned. Its not the same. Doesn’t have the pop on the fastball, can’t throw any of his off speed stuff for strikes, and can’t locate at all.
That’s what missing 3 months does to you.
Geez, the kid was throwing 89 MPH fastballs in the 6th inning. The tank was empty. That’s why I couldn’t fathom the thinking of having him start the 7th.
I love his potential. Unfortunately, potential doesn’t win you games down the stretch.
The envelope is definitely being pushed with him. Thus far, the results haven’t been encouraging.
I agree with the Joba rules, too. I think Hughes should have had some rules as well, don’t forget he’s coming back from two serious leg injuries and was never expected to be part of the rotation this year.
Take care of these kids, don’t abuse them -
hughes 32.2 innings 28 hits given up and 30 strikeouts, very good numbers..now the bad 14 walks… that is what is killing him and causing the 4.96 ERA…
The guy has pitched about 3 or 4 weeks now on the big club since being recalled he should follow Clemens around like a puppy dog and learn how Clemens prepares and actually works on his lower 1/2 during the season…
hughes will be fine, true for a 5th starter his results as is are adequate….. again SJ you aqre the local genius answer me how can a team with this offense and at a minimum an adequate defense not make the playoffs???How???
“Start #4. Melted down in the second inning last night. Another 3 run inning. Walked 5, and had trouble pitching from the stretch all night.”
How is an error by the 2b, 2 walks and a solid hit a melt down?
if it was a melt down like you say wouldn’t it have been 5 runs and gone by the 3rd???
Didn’t he settle down and last into the 7th giving up only 3 hits???
How is that a meltdown?
Some of you “fans” are out of your minds. I know you expect a no hitter everytime out but he’s a rookie pitcher coming off an injury.
also the error was in the 1st inning wasn’t it???
Stuart,
The kid needs innings. He has lost almost a full year of development this year. That has set him back.
Where does he get those innings? The majors, where he has shown to be a 5 inning pitcher thus far, or in AAA, where he can spend a few months building up his innings and his experience? Its not an out of bounds question.
It doesn’t do them any good to put him in the rotation if he isn’t ready.
Next year? Let’s see what happens. The plan wasn’t for him to begin the season in NY this season. They wanted more innings from him in AAA. They didn’t get it. Its a lost year for him.
He may need more time. Learning on the job is awfully tough to do in NY. Its eaten up many good, young arms.
As far as charting pitches, they may do it, but they did a poor job of maximizing his outing last night. You can’t do that in a playoff race.
Hey Stuart,
Get off the ledge buddy. They aren’t out of it. We all can ask that question October 3rd if they don’t make it.
Joba Chamberlain’s health is more important than making the playoffs this year.
and no, Torre can’t be trusted to manage him without the rules.
all you have to do is go look at Vizcaino’s game log for the season and look at some of the games he’s pitched in over the last 3 weeks and you will understand why the FO needs to be strict with Torre. he doesn’t have a clue how to properly utilize relievers. Vizcaino asked for the day off on Sunday b/c his arm is sore. considering he was used in a 9 run game, an 8 run game, and a 12 run game, it’s not surprising. he’s gassed.
and it can’t be allowed to happen to Joba.
the rules cost them, but the rules are there for a reason.
Don’t get too attached to Hughes.
He’ll be in Minnesota next yr when they trade him for Johan Santana.
Stuart,
42 baserunners in 32 innings. That’s not good. Two of his starts were against second division teams. He’s a work in progress.
How can they not make the playoffs? They aren’t in the playoffs as of right now. Do you think they are going to slug their way in?
If they make the playoffs, they are going to have to pitch their way in. Good offense gets shut down by good pitching.
If they don’t pitch, they don’t get in, regardless of how many runs they score.
Two walks and a bases clearing double to a .200 hitter. He pitched 6 innings, walked 5, and gave up 5 runs. If you guys think that’s a good outing, ok by me.
All I am saying is, they are pushing the envelope with a kid who isn’t ready to pitch. His numbers show it. Its a tough thing to do, asking a 21 year old kid to learn and win at the same time at the big league level.
Let’s hope its a decision they don’t end up regretting.
“How is an error by the 2b, 2 walks and a solid hit a melt down?”
the error was in the 1st inning, not the second.
if anything, posada needs to be questioned for calling a first pitch curveball to a backup catcher with breaking-pitch batspeed.
he is avg. about 6 innings an outing and if the minors there is no way they let him throw more then 100 pitches.. having him improve endurance in the minors is not going to happen.
lost season baloney.. the guy has started 6 games in the majors and will get about 6 more starts to make 12 to 14 starts in the majors.. that will be very helpful for him in the future…again he can be getting stronger during the season Clemens has done it for the last 4 yrs…
With all Hughes’s issues in my opinion he got hit hard in 1 game against KC that is it….Last night he was not hit hard.. he threw a terrible curve to mathis and the rest of the hits were nothing special….
if you polled 30 Gm’s 0 would say have him start next yr in AAA to build up his arm strenght, none…………
The Yanks rushed Hughes by maybe a 2 months.. He was not staying at AAA all yr. having a WHIP of 1, and dominating.. it serves no purpose….
Why were they using Vizcaino in blowouts?
I didn’t understand it then
Makes less sense now.
hmmmmmm:
If you don’t think Cano’s play in the 2nd on Matthews “double” was an error, you haven’t played baseball or watched it enough.
That was a routine play that should have been made.
How is this a lost season for Hughes?
He’s 21 and pitching important innings in Aug and Sept for a playoff team.
Parker I am not panicked.. I think Seattle will fold and the Yanks will make it.. My point is how many tough losses like this will they have.. The angels win these games the yanks do not..
the bullpen even as constructed needs help. If chamberlin had no restrictions(will not happen) that would help.
they have 2.5 guys that cannot be trusted(kyle, henn, and villone)..Edwar looks to be a keeper but the guy has pitched in 5 games, there stud 8th inning guy has 5 or 6 games under his belt, this is a highwire act, there pen..
Moose needs to pitch better and not be scared of contact………
they have hit escobar well over the yrs..
I guess people like SJ44 want guys like Igawa and Pavano out there pitching instead of Hughes.
Get a grip fella and layoff the ganja.
Great point Tony. Which is probably why the “Joba Rules” are in place.
Not a great endorsement for a manager when you have to put rules in place to protect your pitchers from him.
“If you don’t think Cano’s play in the 2nd on Matthews “doubleâ€? was an error, you haven’t played baseball or watched it enough.
That was a routine play that should have been made.”
how was it a routine play? even if he gloves it, i don’t know if he gets Matthews throwing across his body. if anything you’d like to see him knock it down.
if you think that was an “error”, then Jeter makes 2-3 “errors” a game.
don’t let Michael Kay convince you otherwise, that was not a “routine” play.
Ask any team in either league and they would take Phil Hughes in a heartbeat. He could probably start right now for 30 of the teams. But because he’s a Yankee somehow that means that he is expected to be more than what he is; a young pitcher who is learning to win at the major league level. I think the team is very pleased with his development and is counting on him to be in the rotation this year and next. Look at the rooks who started earlier this year. He has done better than Igawa, DeSalvo, and probably Clippard (he had some good luck, but he wasn’t as bad as some made him out to be).
I have to agree with SJ about starting him in the 7th. What I really don’t understand is leaving him in after the first guy got on. Torre is famous for pulling the starter after the leadoff guy gets on in the 6th or 7th. If the guy is that shaky just bring in the reliever to start the inning!This is part of my continuing frustration with Joe. A stunning lack of consistency. But I guess 4 WS wins gets you a lot of slack.
Bad base running and some good defensive plays by Angels and some bad ones by Yanks cost the Yanks the game last night(JET LAG)- Big deal, tough loss they’ll get them tonight. Every team is beatable, let’s see some support and optimism. We trail Boston by five and we play them six more times , so there really isn’t any need to be talking about nails in coffins yet. Yanks are playing good and there fun to watch right now so enjoy it.
Stuart,
Every team has tough losses. It’s part of the game.
Where did I say I wanted Igawa or Pavano out there instead of Hughes.
Perhaps you should lay off the ganja or maybe learn how to read.
Sorry hmmmmm
It was a routine play that Cano has made all season.
He should have made it. Thats no excuse for the back to back walks right after. But that’s not exactly a “meltdown” by any means.
Stop expecting 21 yr old rookies to be saviors everytime out.
They’re going to have great games and they are going to have some struggles.
I’ll take 6 innings and 3 runs and 3 hits from my 5th starter.
Knowing that he will only get better and better.
Who can complain about Hughes being out there??
If you are going to complain that he should be in the minors obviously you like the replacements better.
Like Igawa.
After one loss you got people ready to committ suicide.
I forgot that the Mariners have such a great team and are a cinch to keep winning.
He walked the next two hitters in a row and threw a fat, first pitch curveball to a .200 hitter to clear the bases.
Turned a 1-0 lead into a 3-1 deficit in three hitters. That’s the very definition of meltdown.
The kid has loads of potential. We can all see that. However, if folks think he is pitching well (averaging LESS than 6 innings per start, way too many baserunners and walks) you aren’t watching the game.
You are letting his hype overshadow his results.
I think the kid has a chance to be a very good pitcher. However, he isn’t one right now, regardless of how much hype he is getting.
If you don’t think the time he has missed has hurt him, pop in the tape of the Texas game and contrast it with last night. Its two different pitchers.
All I am saying is, he is a work in progress. To that end, no way should he have started the 7th inning. As 57 pointed out, its another example of the inconsistency Torre has when utilizing his assets.
Why is it that Joe Torre tries to out small-ball the Angels whenever they play? It seems like he completely changes the ingame strategy when these two teams play. Maybe the reason Boston handles the Angels much better than the Yanks is because they continue to play their game while we get into a battle of hitting and running.
I watched the whole game last night and Hughes looked good except in innnigs 2 and 7. He was getting a bunch of swings and misses as well. There is nothing for him to learn in the minors which is why he is in the majors right now. Clemens wasn’t all that dominating in his rookie season either by the way as most rookie pitchers struggle when the get to the majors, it’s the exception when they are lights out.
KeithNY,
Good observation. I usually record the game and watch it very fast on my TIVO. I noticed that it seemed the Yanks were hitting and running more than usual. It’s almost as if Torre was trying to out-Scioscia Scioscia. Watching the Angels on offense is like being in the woods in South Georgia. You are constantly swatting at gnats. I hate to use the cliche but they are a pesky team.
KeithNy I agree with you. I thought Torre made a mistake starting Phillips when Melky struck out and Phillips was thrown out and Phillips didn’t even slide on the play. Then when Melky was on first who is actually a fast runner he decides not to start him and then it’s a double play, albeit Kotchman made a great play to start that DP.
joe torre should be ashamed of this
usage of luis vizcaino this month:
8/1-ahead 6
8/3-ahead 5
8/4-ahead 9
8/6-ahead 2
8/11-ahead 8
8/12-ahead 3
8/14-down 12
8/16-down 5
8/18-ahead 3
disgraceful
thanks to a poster at nomaas for this btw
KeithNY that really is disgraceful
Now you see why the “Joba Rules” are in place. That’s really, really bad. No other way to say it.
The game last night wasn’t cost by the Joba Rules.
The game last night was lost by poor, lazy defense (Cano makes that play in the second, the Yanks have a 1-2-3, most like, win the game 6-0) and the inability to get a big hit when we need it (ie, Cano’s GIDP)
I love Cano, but he more or less cost us the game last night. He’s young, he’s still learning, and if it was a game in April you could brush it off.
However, it’s not April, it’s August, and losing a game now feels that much worse.
You can pick any one game we lost and say that it was the nail in the coffin if you want, but if we miss the playoffs, I’m pointing to April and May.
We will be lucky to take one out of three from LAA. It’s got nothing to do with the fact that it’s Moose and Pettite against Lackey and Escobar; it’s that we NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER beat the Angels in Anaheim. Think Baltimore’s tough? The O’s, at least, have yet to beat us in a playoff series this decade.
I do expect, however, three out of four from Detroit (which would make us 4-3 on the ROAD TRIP OF DOOM …henceforth abbreviated RTOD…which most people would probably agree is not anything to be too ashamed of). When Boston comes to town, we can sweep them. It won’t be easy, but we’ll be just coming off of games against tough teams, and the Red Sox will probably be a bit lazy after Tampa and the ChiSox.
Can we win the division? Yes. As long as we stay within 6 of Boston before Tuesday, and within three before our series in September, it’s not out of reach.
Will it be easy? No. There will be a lot more ledge jumpers before it’s all said and done. You can easily make the arguement that (with the exception of Tampa) we play in the toughest division in baseball. Five teams, three of which are over .500 and one which is over .500 under a new manager. If Toronto was in the AL Central, they’d probably be in first, and that’s WITH all their injuries.
Seattle plays September against a host of tough teams, which might mean we end up battling the Angels for the Wild Card.
Whatever happens, it’s going to be one heck of a finish.
(It could be worse. You all could be rooting for an NL team…)
keithny,
The Yankees trade Proctor on July 31. Torre uses Vizcaino on a semi-daily basis in August. Coincidence? Who are we kidding.
“Kyle Farnsworth has regained the edge that led to the Yankees wanting him in the first place. Like it or not, the Yankees need him.”
Yeah, well, I don’t like it and the fact that the Yankees “need him” should tell you about this team.
That “edge” was certainly on display last night. Anything you want to know about Kyle Farnsworth, go back and look at the tape of the 2005 playoff game against the Astros.
His incredible implosion topped off by a Berkman grand slam is a microcosm of Farnsworth’s career.
He is horrendous relief pitcher who turns every half inning into a heart-wrenching folly. I will rejoice the day he is no longer on the team.
There is just no way the Yanks can catch up to Seattle, which is the best and hottest team and also has the benefit of the easiest schedule. Mariners will sweep all the way to the World Series.
It’s easy to see that Phil Hughes is still in the process of building up his arm strength which would have been there if not for the injuries. It’s getting there and still beats the alternative – Igawa.
para – Seattle plays Anaheim, Detroit and Cleveland – what are you talking about?
Just an observation from reading the comments here – how is it that the existence of differing opinions translates into one person “knowing nothing about baseball”? Amazing. Personally, I think SJ44 and hmmm have some of the best comments and insight into the game, yet they often get challenged like this by people. To each his own, I guess.
“The game last night was lost by poor, lazy defense (Cano makes that play in the second, the Yanks have a 1-2-3, most like, win the game 6-0) and the inability to get a big hit when we need it (ie, Cano’s GIDP)
I love Cano, but he more or less cost us the game last night. He’s young, he’s still learning, and if it was a game in April you could brush it off.”
how do we go from saying Cano should have made the play to saying it would have been a 1-2-3 inning? that play happened with 1 out. hughes walked the next 2 guys then gave up a double.
also, that DP he hit into was smoked. he hit it hard up the middle and the pitcher made a great play. nothing but bad luck there.
If the Yanks don’t make the playoffs can we lay a beatdown on Marco Scutaro, the was the ump at second base during the seattle game, and the guy Budde from last night?
And that is just three games….think about all the games with Boston earlier in the year, getting swept by Colorado, losing in extra innings to San Fran, not being able to handle the O’s. All of this equals an uphill battle to get in the playoffs.
Hughes just needs time. It could take a couple seasons to build a guy up. Similarly touted talent Felix Hernandez still needs time too … Seattle has to take it easy with what they’ve got there. He’s already hit a snag this year.
Look at Clemens: Even he took a couple years to become dominant. His first two years in Boston were 133 and 98 innings. His stats went from 9-4/4.32 to 7-5/3.30 and then he had that 24-4/2.48 year (at age 24) when he became The Rocket.
Look at Kerry Wood: At the start of his career, he was throwing like Clemens was at age 24. In his first two seasons he threw 30+ innings more per season than Clemens’ first two. Problem was, Wood was 2 years younger than Clemens was when they each made the majors.
Maybe it doesn’t seem like much for a strong young guy to handle, but looking back it was enough to toast Wood’s arm. The team has got to heed this warning with Hughes & Chamberlain.
Chamberlain appears to be doing great in 1 or 2 inning bursts, which is great. But if he was out there for 6+ innings in a row he’d hit a few bumps along the way too. The so-called Joba Rules are a good idea. And just can’t be abused out of the pen like the more experienced Scott Proctor, who has no arm left by the all star break.
The handling of Hughes has its own set of rules too, just w/o as catchy a name as Joba’s. So far NY seems to have dodged a bullet with Hughes’ hammy.
While the upside of these two phenoms is great to imagine (and tough to wait patiently for) the reality is that we’re looking at a couple guys that shouldn’t be asked to pitch 200+ inning seasons for at least a couple more years. It’s the best way for them to have a shot at following Clemens’ path rather than Wood’s.
hmm–My bad, I thought there were two out.
Still, I think everyone would agree that they’d rather Cano made the play.
A Word About Joba and Harlan Chamberlain
The articles about Joba and Harlan Chamberlain’s relationship abound. Another appears in today’s NYT, if anyone’s interested. Although after the raft of articles that have appeared in the Daily News, Post, Ledger, Journal, and now the Times, I’m not sure one learns anything new in reading them.
I do however have one question for the New York Yankees. I continue to read that Harlan Chamberlain has to watch the Yankees over the internet on mlb.com. And as anyone who has watched it knows, the feed, even on a high-speed internet connection, suffers from poor resolution, a five to ten second time delay, discontinuities in the video and/or sound, and the occasional outage.
Hasn’t it occurred to anyone in the New York Yankees front-office to buy Harlan Chamberlain a subscription to MLB Extra Innings or if his cable company doesn’t offer it, then to set him up with a satellite dish or Direct TV receiver? Even the most rural areas in the South and Mid-West can support the old, conventional Satellite Dish.
Damn, if I knew where in Nebraska Harlan Chamberlain lived, I’d do it myself.
Yankee fans should start a collection, buy one for him, and pay the cost for a technician to set it up, if necessary.
I believe Joba received a $1.1 million signing bonus from the Yankees. He can afford to get his father a TV package.
Good Lord, I am depressed today. Our beloved Yankees are not exactly sitting in the driver’s seat here. Will Seattle ever lose? Will the Red Sox play anyone else besides Tampa? You can call me a jumper, but why should I be confident that the Yanks are going to make the playoffs? Moose blows, Hughes is struggling, Wang is struggling and the Rocket is inconsistent. Not exactly the greatest pitching staff ever, IMO.
Could some of the reason for Phil’s decreased vilocity be he isn’t pushing off the same off the mound? Maybe he is subconsiously protecting his ankle and hamstring?
Phil Hughes is fine. He’s never thrown harder than 93 consistently, so I’m not sure where this “lost velocity” stuff is coming from. Regardless, he’s pitching just as good as any of the other young rookie starters that have been called up this year (and he’s the only one in throwing against AL offenses). I’m really not sure what you guys expected. Did you really think we were calling up a fully developed, All-Star pitcher in his prime? He kept us in this game for 6 innings and then Viz and Henn blew it.
Hughes definitely was throwing 95 consistently in the second half of last season…or at least he was in the Trenton games I saw.
I’m already dreading what some of you will be saying next year whenever Joba struggles to perfect his secondary pitches — the ones he was supposed to be perfecting now at AAA.
Phil is not Aprhrodite, arising whole and fully formed.
Hughes has been a huge disappointment so far for the Yanks. He was rushed into majors. He should have had more innings under his belt at the Minors. I don’t have a very good feeling about Hughes future.
Sheesh. Hughes is 21. People expect Cy Young out of him.
Hughes a huge disappointment?
Look up the beginning of some HOF careers, like Koufax, Maddux and Glavine. Check out Guidry in 1975 and 1976.
If those guys struggled at the beginning of their careers, who is to say that Hughes cannot?
Look at the past and look into history.
I don’t think you can call Phil Hughes a disappointment yet.
He’s 21 friggin’ years old. That’s as old as I am, and I tell you right now if someone handed me a ball and said ‘here, go pitch at Yankee Stadium’, I’d be scared out of my mind!
He’s pitched very well on the road, or have we forgotten the Cleveland game? Last night he had a bad second inning that *probably* would have been a lot less if Cano had made that one play. Like Wang, Hughes has to learn how to deal with runners on base.
His starts at home have been shakier, but again, in his last home start, against Baltimore, he didn’t pitch terribly. Baltimore had the probable Cy Young winner on the mound and the Yankees (again) couldn’t do anything with the bat or in the field.
Phil is young. He won’t be the ace of staff this year like so many are expecting. He probably won’t even be the ace next year.
The important thing is to see if Hughes is growing, getting a bit better with each start. He missed half of the year with injuries, and we’re asking him to be our savior. It shouldn’t be his responsibility. Pitchers like Moose should be the ones taking that burden, and so far, Petitte seems to be the only one to embrace that.
Hughes was better against Baltimore than he was against KC; he lasted longer against Anaheim than he did Cleveland.
Don’t worry.
Hughes will be FINE.
I guess if Hughes doesn’t throw a no hitter every start he’s got the weasels here out for blood.
Anyone that thinks Seattle will hold on with their schedule and that team is out of their minds.
Horacio Ramirez or Hughes?
Weaver or Mussina?
Tough calls
Be ye patient with Phil and Joba in ‘07 and ‘08, and ye shall be rewarded in ‘09 or ‘10.
Stamina takes time to build. It takes at least that long before they can throw the same speed into the 7th or 8th inning as the 1st inning on every 5th day. At their current ages they’ll just have days when they lose a few mph on the top end. It’s just natural progression that they have to build up their strength and stamina.
I remeber being 21 (many moons ago) I was in much better cardio shape than when I was 25 but that was only because I was too busy to train as much at 25. Despite that, I was still physically stronger at 25. Just about all of us were, or will be. At that age you’re still physically maturing so Joba and Phil bound to improve. Aand these guys are going to be training better at 25 that they already are at 21. Phil’s not letting anyone down, he’s doing more than he was expected to do. The biggest potential failure with a 21 year old athlete could be not to be patient enough.
Rob,
I along with everyone else who follows baseball has been waiting for Seattle to collapse since June. They certainly have played waaaay over their heads but lately they have been playing really well. Their offense is heating up, their starting pitching hasn’t been bad and their ‘pen is lights out. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if they folded like a cheap cardboard box, but it also wouldn’t surprise me if they made the playoffs.
It is safe to say the Joba rules cost them that game last night.
He comes in the 7th.
Viz 8.
Mo 9
Game done.
Take the training wheels off already.
And technically it was a full day.
SJ,
What do you make of Hughes’ velocity? Were people exaggerating when they said hughes sits at 93-94 and dials it up to 95, or does he just need to build up his arm strength to get back to his usual velocity?
I also find it weird that Hughes was advertised as a power pitcher, but seems to be sitting at 91. Not that velocity is everything, but throwing 94 with great control is obviously better than 91 with great control.
Does anyone remember what Hughes’ velocity was in that Texas game?
Can we get real for a second about Seattle.
They swept the White Sox. The definition of a team that is mailing it in right now.
They don’t have to face Santana here with Minny.
Granted, they are doing what they have to do and just beating who is on their schedule but I can’t see them holding on.
“all your brain surgeons explain to me how the best offense in the league and statistically a great offensive team may not make the playoffs with a statistically decent pitching team and a good fielding team???”
Because baseball is not a game of offense first, like many here seem to erroneously think. Pitching and defense come way ahead of it. The Yanks lead every conceivable offensive category and still are fighting for a playoff spot. The reason why they have been successful of late has more to do with the pitching and resurgent pen as it does with the 7+ runs a game.
I’m not a brain surgeon, but I hope this doesn’t disqualify my answer.
BJ
“He’s pitched very well on the road, or have we forgotten the Cleveland game? Last night he had a bad second inning that probably would have been a lot less if Cano had made that one play. Like Wang, Hughes has to learn how to deal with runners on base.”
I agree with you Rebecca. I think Hughes has pitched decently for the role he has assumed and am a bit perplexed by the lengthy retorts to the contrary. It is fair to say he is young and demonstrating growing pains, as he did when he failed to cover first the other night. It is quite another to conclude he has failed and cant succeed at this point.
I have watched him quite closely too, and he has been improving with each subsequent start. Even last night his velocity and control were up later on in the game. His pitch count was also at an all time low come the 7th inning. I would love to pin this one on Torre, and will lead the mob demanding his resignation. I cant blame him for going with Hughes in that situation, especially with a depleted bullpen.
Vizcaino, despite his recent upsurge (which is looking less and less like something that will be sustainable lately), has been a career failure as a pitcher. These last couple of weeks will likely be an anomalous blip on the radar. Farnsworthless pitched worse than anyone last night, and guaranteed me a trip to local endoscopy suite.
Perhaps the biggest complaint to be lodged against Torre would be using up KRam the other night for two innings of work. That was not good bullpen managment with that kind of lead. An inning of shutout/strikeout ball would have come in real handy last night.
BJ
Carson,
Phil Hughes sits at 91-93, like he always has. He never hit 95 consistently, and he doesn’t need to.
My opinion re: his velocity is, its the affects of losing 3 months of the season with an injury.
You lose conditioning. Rehabbing is different from conditioning. You lose that much time, you lose pitching sharpness.
I watched him a bunch last year. He was consistently 92-94 in the zone. He maintained velocity throughout his outings and his other pitches had much more bite than they have now. He also painted the strikezone. He is much more inconsistent within the zone now and that’s the effects of missing so much time.
I haven’t seen him live since he has been back. It looks from TV that his fastball also lacks movement. However, I can’t be sure of that until I see him pitch in person. He’s not missing as many bats as he did prior to his injury though.
Last night, he was throwing 89-90 fastballs in the 6th inning. His last pitch in the 6th (a strikeout) was 89 MPH fastball. That’s not Phil Hughes.
The missed time has also affected his other pitches. He can’t locate the curveball and changeup consistently in the zone as the game goes on. He is having real problems throwing strikes (especially with his secondary pitches) from the stretch. Those are the effects of missing so much time with the leg injuries.
Nobody is saying he is a “bust”. If he stays healthy, that won’t happen.
What some of us are saying is, you can’t extend the kid or place higher expectations on him. He’s in a tough spot. They need him to win games but, I’m not sure he is ready to do that at the ML level right now. He’s not a 7 inning pitcher, and won’t be, IMO, the rest of this season. From a conditioning standpoint, there is no way he can catch up this year. That’s tough for a 21 year old kid.
I don’t care what his pitch count was last night (it was only 80) but, he was gassed after 6. He had to really work at getting out of trouble during the game and you could see his lost his edge. They had to do a better job of spotting that and not trying to push another inning out of home. As Randy I pointed out earlier, that’s when pitchers get hurt…..when you try just a little harder to extend them.
JMO, but starting him in the 7th was the beginning of the domino effect that cost them the game.
I am all for the Joba Rules and don’t want them adjusted in any way.
However, I would also like to see some “Hughes Rules” and they need to stop treating this kid like he is a veteran. He’s not.
He’s just a kid trying to learn after missing almost an entire season with an injury. They could have done a better job of working him through last night.
The Yanks are 26-8 over the Central division(including the Pirates), 12-14 Vs West(including Colarado, SFO & Arizona) and 22-25 Vs the EAST. One of the reason for the yanks to be in the current position is they killed all the central division teams. We have only 7 more Vs the Central divsion teams. All 7 are away – 4 Vs Detroit & 3 Vs Kansas City Royals.
As far as Viz, all you have to do is look at an earlier post in this thread.
When you work 9 times in 18 days, and most of that work came in unnecessary (ie: blowout) games, you are going to lose a little.
Its not like the history of Torre doesn’t include burning out some arms along the way in a season.
He’s overworked and last night was an example of it.
The actual plan was for Phil Hughes to come to majors in late 2008 or in 2009. But since the rotation was in such a bad state at the start of the season they rushed Phil Hughes and we are seeing the effects of rushing a 21 year old player.
What’s the latest on the Vizcaino’s sore arm. Is he alright? Or did Torre already burned his arm.
“The actual plan was for Phil Hughes to come to majors in late 2008 or in 2009.”
That’s a ridiculous lie.
“He’s overworked and last night was an example of it.”
I certainly hope you are right. He doesn’t have the luxury of vast history of success both in the regular and post-season to fall back on like MO. Right now success is the exception to the rule when it comes to Viz.
BJ
“I don’t care what his pitch count was last night (it was only 80) but, he was gassed after 6. He had to really work at getting out of trouble during the game and you could see his lost his edge.”
Sj, what do you suggest the team establish as his rules? I disagree with the notion that he was ‘gassed’. That is mere perception. Perhaps you are better at identifying this than me, but there needs to be something concrete. You need to either stick to a raw number of innings regardless of the count, maintain a strict pitch count regardless of the innings, or take him out if you see something objectively you don’t like. The last one is extremely difficult for us to know watching through the tube.
If you have a log of his pitch velocity last night I would like to see it. I followed what Yes was transmitting, and it certainly didn’t seem to be ‘down’ even late in the game. On the contrary, his velocity was improving as the game moved on as did his location.
I’m not necessarily disagreeing with establishing rules for our young ace in the making, but they need to be objectively definable.
I would add that the rules aren’t set up to really protect the pitcher so much as to prevent overuse. They are there because Joe is insufferable when it comes to any kind of bullpen or talented arm. He is merciless. The net effect of course does protect these young pitchers, but it is squarely aimed at Torre who relentlessly destroys arms with sinister alacrity.
Most competent managers wouldn’t require these kinds of sophomoric rules. They really are quite embarrassing for Joe, speaking volumes of how readily he might sabotage a young promising arm.
BJ