Mussina faces mortality (and Tigers) tonight
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I would imagine Mike Mussina has accomplished more as a baseball player than he ever hoped as a kid growing up in Pennsylvania.
He got a scholarship to Stanford, was a first-round draft pick and has made millions playing the game for two high-profile teams. At the very least, he is a player who Hall of Fame voters will have to give serious consideration to given his 247 wins, 2,648 strikeouts and 3.69 ERA in what will come to be known as the steroids era.
But none of that matters tonight.
For the first time since his rookie season in Baltimore in 1991, Mussina will be pitching to prove that he deserves another chance five days later.
Mustering up the arrogance of an elite athlete, he stood in the clubhouse the other day and mocked the idea of his being replaced. But if Mussina can’t get guys out, the Yankees owe it to themselves to see if somebody else can. Even if that somebody else is Kei Igawa or some kid.
I have long believed fans have the wrong idea about Mussina because they see him only in television snippets and he comes across as condescending. That is usually because he has no time for the usual banal, “So, how do you feel?” questions.
It’s become a standard-issue cliche for feature writers to mention that he does crossword puzzles, like that makes him some sort of Poindexter. For the record, he does a newspaper crossword once in a while. But Mussina spends more time standing around his locker talking about baseball or television shows in the 1970s. He goes fishing with his kids, collects classic muscle cars and he works out as much (if not more) than other guys. He’s not some nerd with a good arm.
But he is a pitcher in the twilight, forced to figure out who he is and what he can do to get 18 hitters out. Six innings, three runs. That would be fine. Heck, that would be celebrated.
Is anything less a ticket to a skipped start? Only Brian Cashman and Joe Torre know that and they’re not saying. But with 32 games left, you’re either part of the solution or you’re part of the problem.
This entry was posted
on Monday, August 27th, 2007 at 12:37 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
Alot of writers make him out to be a shut in who doesn’t talk with his other teamates, while he might not be friends with them off the field, I’m sure he goes out to lunch or dinner with them. The media in general likes to paint him as an arrogant sob. It’s nice to finally read something that doesn’t paint him that way.
TIME TO RETIRE ARM IS GONE TO PASTURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quick, someone start Project M-35.
Peter,
Well said, I hope that Moose can help us win a championship. If not I believe his career as a Yankee will overlooked, come on Moose we need you.
“He goes fishing with his kids and he works out to stay in shape.”
Wow, the dude works out??? Does he, like, watch video of batters too, or would that be asking too much?
Awesome scene-setter Pete. I have been really hard on Mussina in this blog and in my conversations with other Yankee fans. After reading this, I feel a little bad because I realize that he is just a guy (I like talking about television shows from the 70’s too) trying to do his job to the best of his ability. That ability may or may not be able to get major league hitters out anymore and I guess tonight will go a long way to telling us which it is.
Pete,
Best post you have written on this blog.
K
Moose pitched himself out of Cooperstown this year. Hate to say so, but it’s true.
If he had retired prior to this season, he’d've been more likely to be enshrined than he is now.
Barring a stupendous turnaround, I place his chances of gaining admission to the Hall at about 1-in-10,000.
“Six innings, three runs. That would be fine.”
Well seeing as how that is the very definition of a quality start, and Detroit is the #2 offense in MLB…I would hope so. That would be fine for pretty much anyone not named Johan.
Personally, I would happily take 5 over 5 and consider us lucky in that we actually have a chance to win the game.
5 over 5 is not acceptable. That’s an ERA of 9.
That said, Moose has always seemed like a good guy. I loved his appearance in that crossword puzzle movie. I hope he retires with dignity this offseason and doesn’t force us to pull a Bernie.
as arrogant as moose’s “who are they going to replace me with?” comment may be, i think he’s absolutely right. no matter how bad he pitches, there is no one better, save for POSSIBLY a young guy like kennedy. but you’ll never see kennedy take moose’s spot in a september pennant race on the ny yankees. the yanks have sampled virtually every starter on their 40-man roster this season, and they’re using the only serviceable ones right now.
that said, i bet moose won’t completely bomb tonight and will make the case for remaining in the rotation, but regardless, i think the whole replace moose idea is a fiction drummed up by the media, just like the poindexter image p-abe points out in this post.
Now that Farnsy looks ready to step up, is there any consideration being given to Joba making a start or two. He should still be in condition and having a 1-2-3-4 powerful punch in the bullpen is not very helpful if the starters are giving up 6 runs early.
It’s gotten to a point where I’d rather have Farnsworth pitch in the 9th of a 1 run game than have Mussina start.
I think its time to see Moose step up. He had that three game stretch where he was brilliant, that stretch included the Indians. I think we need to see 6 or 7 innings with less than 4 runs. Boston is off tonight, Seattle goes up against Lackey. If Moose can get the win tonight, and Lackey can be Lackey, we are looking at this scenerio heading into a BIG three game set against Boston at the Stadium.
6 Games Back behind Boston
1.5 Games behind Seattle.
We need this win…and it is time for Mike to show up and put it all out on the table.
Cashman already said there is zero chance they change course with Chamberlain during the year. He is going to be a reliever this year.
For those wanting to see the personal side of Moose, check out Yankees On Deck airing on YES. It shows Moose and he is talking candidly about life and pitching.
Excuse me…If Moose can get the win tonight and Lackey beats Seattle, it would be 1 game. Even Better.
“If he had retired prior to this season, he’d’ve been more likely to be enshrined than he is now.”
nonsense.
either he makes it in based on his body of work or he doesn’t.
there are very few hall of famers who don’t have a terrible final season on their resume.
how else would they know when to retire? are you saying Moose, who was one of the 10 best pitchers in the AL last year, should have retired?
and i love this:
“Hate to say so, but it’s true.”
ah, gotcha. it’s “true” b/c you said so?
he may have fallen short of the Hall of Fame b/c he needed 2 more good seasons to get in, but that’s not the same as saying if he retired last year he’d have made it in.
“I hope he retires with dignity this offseason and doesn’t force us to pull a Bernie.”
a trade to the NL is more likely. he has $11M coming to him next year. he’s not going to just retire.
Awesome post Pete.
I think he’ll step up tonight.
If Moose changes the way he pitches and approaches hitters, he still has an outside shot at finishing his career with a year or two of success.
Given what we saw yesterday, its pretty clear. If Moose can’t string together some good starts in a row, they have no chance to make the playoffs.
I am not a big Moose fan. Never been a fan of the way he nibbles, the excuses and all the other quirks that go along with his act.
That said, I hope he’s lights out tonight. I would gladly take 3 runs over 6 innings.
Given the failures this weekend, this is a more important game than Game 1 vs. the Red Sox. In fact, it may be more important than the entire series.
To go into a Red Sox series off a 2-5 roadtrip is a recipe for disaster.
They can’t keep giving ground in the WC, or losing the chance to gain ground when Seattle loses a game.
They also can’t have the #4 and #5 pitchers be automatic losses the rest of the way. Something has got to give.
Hopefully, Moose can get it done tonight. Its a huge start for him and the team. I don’t think that can be overstated.
I`m rooting for the Moose to show up all the naysayer`s on this blog Go get em Moose.
If the Yankees win tonight they will still be 7 games behind Boston, not 6. The division isn’t happening, people, focus on the wild card.
Pete, that post should have been in the newspaper too. Excellent scene setter for the game.
I’ve always liked the guy, even when he’s been inscrutible at times. I remember Tom McDonald over at NY1 talking about how Mike is a different guy once the cameras come on, and away from the media he’s a funny, smart, good individual. I know those qualities don’t automatically give a player a pass when they don’t perform up to snuff. But in this case, I have a sneaking suspicion all the “This start determines his role in September” is a bit of a psychological ploy to light a fire under his ass.
I predict he’ll still have some up-and-down moments to the end of the season, but I also predict he ain’t through yet. Moose will give a glimmer of hope tonight. After that, as it goes down to wire, we’ll see how he pitches five days from now. But tonight, I think he gets us a win.
Olney says that Moose is pitching for his job tonight, and that White would replace him.
I’d love 3 runs in 6 innings, but I can’t imagine Mussina would be yanked out of the rotation unless he has another implosion. I’m also not sure he has that eye-of-the-tiger attitude where he runs out there and proves everyone he’s still got it, the way Clemens or Pedro or Randy Johnson can when they need it.
5 runs/5 innings wouldn’t be pretty, but who would be better? Karstens? Henn? Any member of that early-season cavalcade? And I don’t think they’ll throw Kennedy in the rotation, since Torre is loathe to go with inexperience in a pinch-hitter, much less 2 of his 5 starters down the stretch.
In Torre’s heart of hearts, I think he’d rather have brilliance or a meltdown. Anything in the middle makes his choice very difficult.
Moose has been good for the Yankees in the past. This year he’s been servicable, good, and at times bad. In a normal year of dominance those losses were easily absorbed. This year the clunkers really hurt, and by no means was he the only one. Clemens, Wang, Pettite, Wright, Clippard, and Igawa have all had at least one putrid game.
I like how Andy was able to find his way, and if Mike’s as smart as they say he’ll figure it out.
O.K. that takes care of the fake Pollyanna crap. I still don’t like his personality. Pete, you have more insight than us so I won’t argue with you. But I also feel that you might be wanting to paint a certain picture. He’s still curmudgeony and set in his ways. He’s what we call “high makamaka” or what you guys call snobbish, thinking he’s better that everyone else. These are only my opinions because I’ve never met the man in my life.
These things have been “reported”: He’s called out specific teammates (i.e. “thrown them under the bus”) and no one can say he hasn’t because he’s publicly acknowledged it. In particular his latest fit of defiance in regards to his spot in the rotation was really disappointing at a time he needs to be accountable and face reality.
I say life is good, be happy. Make everyone around you feel comfortable with good vibes.
In conclusion, I cheer for Moose because he’s a Yankee. I wish him the best of luck with his pitching and the personality transplant.
excellent post on Moose…brought me to tears…
(of course so does his pitching)
I hope Moose comes thru because I will not be happy to see Igawa.
Perhaps we can off-load him to the Phillies? He still lives in Montoursville in the eastern part of the state (OK, they call it a commonwealth down here), and the NL would be much easier on him.
I say do it, and ask for little in return.
Mussina likes standing around talking about television shows from the 70’s? Oh well, he’s definitely not a nerd then.
The best thing for us would be for Mussina to get his cheesy sideburns knocked off tonight, which would firmly establish Hughes as our 4th starter. Then either use Kennedy (or even Karstens, forget Igawa) or skip his spot in the rotation when possible.
If I have to watch the Crossword Kid choke away another playoff series while blaming everyone but himself I’ll put my head through a wall.
Vince,
Haha, we do owe Philly one, don’t we?
“choke away another playoff series”
I still remember him bailing out Clemens in the third inning(?) of Aaron Boone’s game. I think he save that playoff series.
At least one, yup.
Also, what’s the problem with dumping someone from the 40-man for Kennedy?
We’ve got dead weight like Sardinha, Beam and Brower on there. Dump one of them and add Kennedy and have him pitch.
Kennedy is at or above the innings threshold for the year. They don’t want to extend him anymore this year for fear of arm trouble down the line.
peter a., while praising mussina, neglected to point out that if derek jeter was drilled on purpose for no reason and suffered a broken hand or worse, and mike mussina was pitching, mussina would not retaliate and defend his teammate. he would refuse if he was told to do it.
for this reason alone , he should have never been a yankee.
that said, it would not surprise me to see him pitch a quality start in half of his games the rest of the year. he’s had two stinkers in a row, so he’s due tonight.
“he would refuse if he was told to do it”
How do you know he would refuse if told to do it?
You don’t know that.
Plus managers rarely, if ever, tell a player to hit another player.
“They also can’t have the #4 and #5 pitchers be automatic losses the rest of the way. Something has got to give.”
That was Hughes first loss since he’s been back.
How is that automatic?
I’d say some peoples expectations are delusional but that’s already apparent here.
Mussina was the MVP of that game 7 in 2003.
This was an excellent post. Kudos, Pete! As for Mussina, Yankee fans had better hope he can give the team 5-6 decent innings per start the rest of the way. Do you really want to see Igawa/Karstens/Clippard during the last 25 games? I don’t. Move on without him next season, but for now they need him.
Great mini-story Pete, I liked the setup for tonight’s game.
Randy:
I could not disagree with that line of thought more.
Jeter (and Giambi) lean over the plate and get hit a lot in their hands and arms. It’s the price they pay for the way they hit. Very rarely does a player get hit on purpose, very rarely.
Just because Jeter leans in and gets hit doesn’t mean Mussina or anybody else should hit a guy from the other team. That’s just stupid.
The whole baseball mentality with HBPs is so silly. If a hitter doesn’t like it, go out to the mound and you take the suspension. Instead they leave it to a teammate who had nothing to do with the original incident and he gets the suspension.
I’m going to state that tonight I believe like the Mussina of old will show up tonight with a dominant performance. He’s a competitor, he wants to win, I just can’t see him losing tonight.
I think moose has been largely mediocre this yr when you put aside the 2 or 3 lousy starts and the 2 or 3 good ones. He hasn’t fallen off a cliff the way Cone did in 2000. When i think back, Moose has given us some good memories. He stopped Boston in relief in gm 7 of the 2003 ALCS when Clemens was getting shelled. He and Mariano held Boston until Boone’s shot. And, didn’t he win 1-0 against Oakland in the Jeter “flip” game when the Yanks were down 2-0 and were on the ropes in the 2001 AL Div series? Finally, the near-perfect game in fenway that Everett ruined with 2 outs in the 9th.
Let’s hope Moose reaches back for a good one tonight. We need him!
“The best thing for us would be for Mussina to get his cheesy sideburns knocked off tonight, which would firmly establish Hughes as our 4th starter. ”
actually, the best thing for “us” would be for him to pitch a great game and the Yankees win.
but i guess personal vendettas are more important.
Pete chooses to reply to the most dumbed-down criticism of his post, that response to HBP determines Moose’s value. What should we expect in the comments of a post that defends Moose by saying he “works out”?
Randy and you fail to mention that he won’t pitch that way, because he did hit someone and got hurt because of it.
How many innings will Mussina last tonight?
(a) 1
(b) 1.1
(c) 2
(d) 2.2
(e) 3
It’s sad, but as much as Mussina has done for the franchise, they need to drop him from the rotation if he doesn’t give the team a chance to win. That’s just baseball.
How is reporting that Moose works out seen as defending him?
i dont know if moose is a hof’er . close , maybe , but i dont know .
who replaces moose if he cant get guys out ? kei igawa ? i would rather eat my own foot than watch him pitch . ian kennedy ? too early too soon . joba ? noway the yanks should mess with that kid any more than they already have .
i guess its either moose or no playoffs . i hope he gets his act together and soon !!
I am rooting for Moose, too. I root for all the Yankees player actually. Moose need to step up now. It has been painful to watch the game Moose started. I will still cheer for him though. I know I can wait for Hughes to develop into an ace type pitcher. I don’t know how long I can continue put my faith on Moose.
However, I do believe Moose is a nice guy. I saw a picture in Taiwanese news paper(apple daily) that Moose try to help Wang with Gator in the bullpen last year and this year. I think he volunteer to do that for Wang but I find Andy and Clement’s picture with Wang working out in bullpen this year too. Anyway, I wish and pray that Moose will give us his best tonight and the rest of the season. As long as all our starters can deliver quality start, our offense should be able to put enough runs on the score board to win and our bullpen should be able to protect the lead with fresh arm.
By the way, I hope the injury is not a serious problem for our Capitan. We need him.
“We’ve got dead weight like Sardinha, Beam and Brower on there. Dump one of them and add Kennedy and have him pitch.”
wow, Sardihna is “dead weight” now? thank god some of you guys don’t run the team.
Phil, a lot of people seem to think that if Moose followed Clemens and Pettitte’s workout routine he would suddenly start throwing baseballs as hard as David threw rocks at Goliath.
Therefore Pete saying he works out is looked as a defense of the criticism of Moose not following Roger’s workout routine.
i dont think retaliation is stupid . it just isnt the way torre plays ball . it isnt the way the game plays any more
Hmmm,
A personal vendetta has nothing to do with it. If Mussina pitches well tonight and is just okay for the next five weeks, Joe’s gonna go with the “proven” veteran in a make-or-break Game 4 scenario. You want Mussina in that spot over Hughes? Not me.
as far as moose is concerned : what have you done for the team lately ? the past is the past . the yanks are trying to win a playoff birth and the way moose is pitching aint helpin’ . fact .
The whole baseball mentality with HBPs is so silly. If a hitter doesn’t like it, go out to the mound and you take the suspension. Instead they leave it to a teammate who had nothing to do with the original incident and he gets the suspension.
Unless you’re Toronto then it works perfect and no one on your team gets supsended
i think moose has a lot to prove tonight, and I really don’t want to see Igawa again. So I’m hoping he can do his job tonight..
Phil – the bulk of his post was to say “Hey now, Moose is a good guy”. One of his pieces of evidence was the fact that Moose works out. This is irrelevant.
I think Pete mentioned that Moose works out to illustrate that he’s a ballplayer, an athlete just like the others on the club. (Of course, “working out” could be lifting weights or “Do the Jane Fonda”-great song by Mickey Avalon for the pod, Pete)
He’s saying that Moose is not just some guy who shows up with his coffee (black, I assume), does the crossword puzzle, goes out and pitches, and then takes questions after the game.
“A personal vendetta has nothing to do with it. If Mussina pitches well tonight and is just okay for the next five weeks, Joe’s gonna go with the “provenâ€? veteran in a make-or-break Game 4 scenario. You want Mussina in that spot over Hughes? Not me.”
no, i think it’s crazy to root for a loss tonight in order to avoid the slight possibility of a crucial game 4 playoff start when the Yankees aren’t even in the playoffs right now.
Moose is going to be lights out tonight (I hope). Peter, not sure why you keep short changing the Yankees, but there are 32 games, not 31. In fact if we go 20-12, the final record will be 92-70.
I agree we need to win at least half the games pitched by Hughes and Moose. The way I plot it out, of the remaining 32 games, Moose and Hughes are scheduled to pitch 11. So let’s say we go 6-5 in those. Therefore in the other 23 starts by Pet-Rocket-Wang we need to go 14-7. Seems doable.
“If I have to watch the Crossword Kid choke away another playoff series while blaming everyone but himself I’ll put my head through a wall.”
Here’s what Mussina has done for the Yanks in the playoffs:
2001 ALDS down 0-2 vs A’s: 7 inn, 0 runs
2001 ALCS up 1-0 vs M’s: 6 inn, 2 runs
2001 WS game 1 vs. D’Backs: 3 inn, 5 runs
2001 WS tied 2-2 vc. D’Backs: 8 inn, 2 runs
2002 ALDS tied 1-1 vs. Halos: 4 inn, 4 runs
2003 ALDS game 1 vs. Twins: 7 inn, 3 runs
2003 ALDS game 1 vs. Bosox: 5.2 inn, 4 runs
2003 ALDS down 2-1 vs. Bosox: 6.2 inn, 3 runs
2003 ALDS game 7 vs. Bosox (trailing 4-0, 4th inning, fist & third, 0 outs): 3 inn, 0 runs
2003 WS tied 1-1 vs. Fish: 7 inn, 1 run
2004 ALDS game 1 vs. Twins: 7 inn, 2 runs
2004 ALCS game 1 vs. Bosox: 6.2 inn, 4 runs
2004 ALCS up 3-1 vs. Bosox: 6 inn, 2 runs
2005 ALDS game 1 vs. Halos: 5.2 inn, 0 runs
2005 ALDS game 5 vs. Halos: 2.2 inn 5 runs
2006 ALDS up 1-0 vs. Tigers: 7 inn, 4 runs
Overall in the post season:
22 Games, 21 starts, 7-8, 3.40 ERA: 135 IP, 117 Hits, 51 ER, 29 BB, 142 K
If you want to tag him with “choking away” the 2005 ALDS – okay. But he has helped to win a lot more playoff series than he has “choked away”. Those post-season totals look pretty good considering they are all against the best teams in MLB.
“One of his pieces of evidence was the fact that Moose works out. This is irrelevant.”
why don’t you post the entire quote.
“He goes fishing with his kids, collects classic muscle cars and he works out as much (if not more) than other guys.”
i think it is pretty obvious what he is trying to say. he is saying that Moose’s struggles are not for a lack of effort. they are simply the results of aging. he is saying this isn’t a Boomer Wells situation where he is not keeping himself in shape.
really, what is so hard to understand here? you are just looking for something to object to.
Thanks Pete. I have met Moose on several occasions and he is charming. His nerdy, whiney rep is so undeserved. That said, if he doesn’t pitch well, he needs to be replaced in the rotation. Ian Kennedy, c’mon down. You’re the next contestant on Yankeee Pitching Aint’ Right.
The Lion in Winter? Nah, I don’t think so. Moose hates change, everyone knows how he hated the Japan trip and stayed in his room eating PBJ’s instead of using his Stanford educated brain to observe a whole new world. Change is required here, change and courage. Moose must go up and in to Maggs and company to reclaim the inside half. Do it and he has a fighting chance at a quality start. To continue with the same old thinking, coupled with a fastball now deprived by age of any life, and he is doomed to failure. I wish him the best but unfortunately you know what they say about old dogs.
Sorry bad math, of the 21 other games we need 14-7 by Pet Rocket Wang. trademarked
mel, ok, i grant that. i shouldn’t read too much into it, but it just seems like a dumb thing to say. i mean, other than david wells, who doesn’t “work out” on an MLB staff?
hmmm – the point is that saying “he works out” when talking about a professional athlete is like saying “he breathes air”. that’s what so hard to understand about why it’s mentionable at all.
9 0 0 0 0 27
hmmmm. I would take that fatbody Wells in a heartbeat.
I mean did you see last nights game where he BUNTED FOR A BASE HIT. Fat boy may have gout and type 2 but he still knows how to pitch.
hmm, i did post the original quote (post 4 or 5 above) and it has since been changed to include the “as much if not more” and “muscle cars” information. it is relevant if he works as hard as other guys, and i’ll drop it entirely, but that is not what the original article said. if i knew how to use google cache i would prove it.
I don’t know why they should even bother playing the games. The Yankees are done and there’s only 4 more days of baseball. What was that? The season ends September 30th? Oh, they still don’t have a chance. The fans and the “experts” say it’s over anyway, why bother?
“If you want to tag him with “choking awayâ€? the 2005 ALDS – okay. But he has helped to win a lot more playoff series than he has “choked awayâ€?. Those post-season totals look pretty good considering they are all against the best teams in MLB.”
come on Bronx, don’t bring “facts” to the Mussina stoning.
he was never a “big game” pitcher, like Andy Pettitte, even though he has better postseason numbers than Pettitte minus the run support.
Frits:
I realize uou live to criticize my posts, which is cool. But let me try and explain what I meant:
What I wrote was in the context of how many fans view Mussina. They tend to see Roger and Andy as these warriors who will themselves to victory and Moose as this dweeb who only complains all the time.
What I was pointing out is that the guy is more than the 45 seconds you see on camera. I don’t think many feature writers have ever captured him well because he’s a challenge to interview. He questions your premise if he finds it wrong. Most guys just say what they figure you want to hear.
So my point was that Moose is as much a ball player as anybody else.
Hopefully that clears it up.
“it is relevant if he works as hard as other guys, and i’ll drop it entirely, but that is not what the original article said. if i knew how to use google cache i would prove it.”
i see. ehh, forget it. semantics.
yeah!
There’s no better time than tonight for Mussina to show his old form and lead us to a victory. I know that he says he feels fine, but I still wonder if he’s completely healthy. Think about the last three years toward the end of August. He was bothered by elbow problems in ‘04 and ‘05, and last year his groin was giving him trouble. Maybe he’s okay and ready to respond tonight. This is really the first time that his spot has ever been threatened. Maybe the possibility of being dropped from the rotation will rekindle a fire in him. He might be one of these pitchers who responds well to threats. Maybe we’ll see the same Mussina that we saw in his last start at Comerica Park in June of last year, when he was one out away from a shutout, or of course, we could easily see the Mussina that has been battered by so many hitters lately. He really is a major question mark.
I would be satisfied if he met the minimum requirements for a quality start- 6 innings and 3 earned runs. I would be thrilled if he could provide more. Tonight is going to be very, very interesting.
I do see the distinction, now more clear than it was originally.
In all seriousness, I do actually live to criticize your posts. I’ve got funding and everything.
You guys wouldn’t recognize David Wells if he walked right into your kitchen and asked for some granola. He’s dropped a lot of weight. Check out the caption under the picture at this link: http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb......;team=away
He would’ve beat Todd Jones to the bag (still love you Mats).
Wells’ pants are loose, the belly’s gone, and his right arm is a stick (think Edwar).
Wonder why Michael Kay and Mike Mussina don’t get along? That should endear Moose to you many Kay haters out there.
All I have to say is, “People who can, do; people who can’t, call themselves Frits”
that is a very unique destruction of a banal, trite phrase!
C’mon Frits, jk…we’re all friend here…post away
Thanks Jonathon, I’m just messing around
Hey All,
There was an article in the Times today that said they wouldn’t bring up Ian Kennedy this year, which pretty much says that they’re either sticking with Mussina or going to Kei Igawa (PLEASE NO!!!!!!!, for the love of all diehard yanks fans!!!!!!!), or someone else other than Ian Kennedy….
If the Yankees make the playoffs, unless we see more from him the rest of the season, I am not comfortable with Phil Hughes starting any playoff game.
Hype is one thing. Results and experience is another. Hughes hasn’t pitched well enough, at this time, to merit playoff starting consideration.
His ERA is over 6 since his return and despite all the straining people are doing to try and call yesterday’s 6 inning, 5 run performance “great”, he’s been far from “great” since his return.
Over each of their last 6 starts Mussina has outpitched Hughes. Mussina’s last two starts have been awful. Hughes has also not pitched well his last two starts and the Yankees, as in Moose’s starts, have lost both starts.
That’s 0-4 from their #4 and #5 starters in their last 4 combined starts. I’d say neither guy has distinguished themselves.
If Mussina still has something left (I realize a BIG if), I’ll take my chances with him in a Game 4.
How ’bout this though? Let’s see them get to the playoffs first, before we start fretting about a playoff rotation.
Talk about putting the cart before the horse.
In a game that bears heavy consequences in shaping the races in the AL, the Devil Rays are winning 2-0.
This is a makeup game from a rainout of May 25 and a one-day trip for Tampa Bay.
Agreed SJ…until the Yankees are on the schedule on October 3rd…there is no need to worry about who’s in the postseason rotation.
I can’t possibly be the only one that’s fed up with hearing about innings restrictions with pitchers. Here we are in the age of modern technology and medicine with athletes getting more fragile as time moves on.
hughes is much better than bostons number five starter in tavaraz and i believe that he is more reliable than seatles 3,4,5 guys also look at the bottom of clevland and detriots rotation, that being i think were fine….if anything we can use a number six starter in igawa, he can also be there in long releif.
Peter-
Its interesting that you write that Mussina works out very often, and more than a lot of other guys. When Mike and Mad Dog covered the Yogi Berra golf tournament, they interviewed Gene Michael who said that Mussina would have been a better pitcher later in his career if he had worked out. Sounds like conflicting reports. I tend to agree with Michael’s evaluation. Mussina has always come across as a player much like Bernie Williams who didn’t focus on the conditioning aspect of the game in the off season, which lead to a faster decline towards the end of their careers.
peter a. -
i’m not talking about inadvertant hiiting of a batter. i’m talking about when everyone knows that a pitcher is hitting a guy on purpose. mussina still won’t back up a teammate.
in 2004 the red sox with bronson arrojo and pedro and shilling took it to the yankees because of no retaliation back from the yankees. up and in aggresive pitching is a very effective way to take charge of a game.
that’s my second major criticism of mussina. he won’t even take a chance of hitting the guys who lean in. he pitches away from their bodies. if his catcher sets up close up and in to the hitter he doesn’t go there. it would not surprise me if that’s the problem between mussina and posada. posada is not going to say anything to the press if he has a problem with it . why wouldn’t he have a problem with it though? he’s pitched up and in as a hitter, but he can’t call a pitch up and in to a hitter when mussina is pitching. why would a hard nosed guy like posada like that? maybe mussina likes the back ups because they’re just happy to be playing and don’t give him any trouble for his unaggressive pitching philosophy.
why don’t you ask posada if a pitcher should establish up and in with his fastball and see what he says? that’ll give you your answer what he thinks of mussina.
mussina’s self indulgence with his personal philosophy aainst pitching up and in hurts the team. as long as he wins with his self imposed restrictons no one is going to say much. now that he losing more than winning, don’t be surprised if coaches and teammates don’t take a different view of his approach.
I hope the Yanks win tonight and Mussina does really well. However, I do think he still needs to go. He thinks that no one will replace him and that cocky attitude doesn’t do it for anyone. Hell I really trust Farnsworth a lot more than I trust Mussina. He’s had a good run and now it’s time to leave. I’m sorry if I piss a lot of people off but that’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it. I still can’t believe Cashman signed him for two years last year. Mussina, it’s time to go!!!!
pete interesting take comparing thoughts on mussina to pettite/clemens, i certainly am in the camp that looks at him as this annoying complainer, i guess i could be wrong and the post on his playoff stats was surprising to me, much better then i would have expected
that said, as everyone knows they need a solid game tonight, verlanders era is up near 4.00 so maybe hes not dealing at the moment and they can score 5 runs and finally win a close game on this road-trip
Patrick:
I’m not suggesting Mussina is some workout warrior. Far from it. But he’s not some slug, either. He’s a “touch-and feel” pitcher and I’m not sure getting stronger would help him as much as other guys.
Stick Michael isn’t around the major league club much, I’m not sure what he’s basing that on. Mussina is by no means out of shape.
Pete,
That was really, really well-written and could easily be my favorite thing you’ve ever posted here.
I could write a whole book on why I like Moose a lot, but I won’t, I’ll just say I’ve always been a big fan of his and always will be. It is difficult to watch any player you like or admire in decline (as I know we all experienced with Bernie.) And it’s funny cause I always thought Moose aged pretty gracefully in the past, making adjustments well – now it seems to really be catching up with him in a hurry.
It is not easy or fun to watch. But to see someone so eloquently put into words all the great things about the Moose – all the reasons fans have admired and enjoyed watching him over the years – somehow makes it somewhat more bearable. Thanks again for writing this, it really did my heart good to read.
I remember you blogging on here some time ago, likely last season, about Moose rocking out to VH1 Classic in the clubhouse. Personally, I think it’s stuff like that that makes him so likeable. To me, he comes off as such a regular guy, albeit one with 247 career wins and a near-genius IQ.
I love watching pitchers like Pettitte and El Duque who are bigger than life on the mound, and wouldn’t trade it for anything. But there is definitely room in my heart for the Mooses (meese? lol) of the world too – the guys whose dedication to the game is just as great, they just don’t necessarily express it in the same way.
Here’s hoping Moose, who has had so many great outings in his career, has another good one in him tonight. My family and I are pulling for him hard core.
BBB,
Reading your post just made me feel like dog poo for thinking that Moose is a grouchy old man. lol.
Pete ~ great piece. The only part I take some exception to is the reference to “arrogance” on the part of moose for – let’s be honest – telling it like it is AND demonstrating the attitude we love in our pitchers. If this was the rocket’s quote we’d all be breathing a sigh of relief (saying he has the right attitude!). Can you imagine what the outcries would be if he said anything that revealed a crack in the armor?! Thanks.
I like pitchers and I like Mike Mussina. Just because he doesn’t suffer fools gladly and is erudite and prepared doesn’t mean he’s a bad guy. He’s just a step above your Giambi type, that’s all.
He’ll pitch his game tonight and let’s hope the infield is ready.
The answer for Mussina: “Clean livin’ and the Spitball” as Preacher Roe said. Mussina has the first part down, according to Pete’s write-up. The Yankees should fly Roe into Detroit for a quick clinic.
Mel: Awww, don’t feel like dog poo! lol. Believe me I fully understand that most people percieve him as grouchy and why they do. My perception in this regard has just always been different and it was nice to see Pete post something that is so similar to my thinking on the matter. I always thought I was the only one, lol.
Annie: “doesn’t suffer fools gladly” AND “erudite” in the same sentence? I love it – Moose would be proud!
A Taiwanese reporter covering the Yankees saw Mussina being really nice and patient with some little kids asking for autographs. And Wang mentioned more than once that Mussina helped him a lot with his pitching posture.
I really hope he can deliver this one.
Pete – thanks for that insight on Moose. As a cranky and on occasion, finicky, person myself, I admire him. I think he can do it tonight. That game in Cleveland a few weeks ago is the Mike who’ll take the mound.
This article by Pete even got a very good series of comments on the Sons of Sam Horn site. If you wonder why Sox fans stop by here (well, other than to be obnoxious and stir you guys up) it’s because of the quality of Pete’s coverage and blogging.
And I think any honest baseball fan, no matter who they root for, takes no pleasure in watching a great pitcher like Moose struggle late in his career. So, may he pitch well and get a ND tonight.
Check out Orioles blogs and you’ll see they’re still mourning Moose’s signing with the Yanks. Not quite as bad as watching the Colts roll out of town in Mayflower vans, but bad.
This is a terrific piece, Peter. I think Moose is often portrayed as being a miserable loner when he really isn’t.
As for tonight, let’s hope Mussina has a good outing. He’s done a ton for this franchise and that will never be forgotten, but loyalty gets thrown out the window when you need to win games down the stretch and your starter isn’t giving you a chance. Let’s hope Moose can put together a few good starts because I don’t want to see Igawa again.
wow did he s..t the bed tonight!