Today in The Journal News
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Aug 27, 2007 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
Phil Hughes is learning on the job. But meanwhile the Yankees lost another game.
Derek Jeter is hurting and sat out yesterday.This notebook also has the pitching matchups for the Red Sox series and other news.
Go to sleep Pete its almost 3 am
Can people stop whining about a 21 year old pitcher and see that if an old man wasn’t playing left field yesterday the Yanks would have won 4-2
People that whine about Hughes really need to get a clue.
Hughes has did a great job so far. Bottom line is we can’t afford to lose tonight, we have to win.
Its no better than people talking about how “great” he is going to be when we haven’t seen anything (since his return) to demonstrate that as being fact. Especially, since he has come back from his injuries.
He has a 6.10 ERA since his return and has at least one meltdown inning per start. That’s not “great” and that’s a fact.
He’s a young kid, learning on the job. From what we have seen so far, he has a ways to go before we start labeling him as the next big thing. Unfortunately, this team is trying to make the playoffs so, its a delicate balance they have with him right now.
Fair or not, he has to pitch better if they want to make the playoffs. He’s in the rotation. He gets no free passes.
Discussing his shortcomings and why they may be happening is not whining. I guess we all gush about him despite his struggles but, that would make for pretty boring and inaccurate, discussions, wouldn’t it?
As far as that “old man” in LF, take him out of the lineup and see how many wins they would have right now. His production is one of the reasons they are even sniffing a WC berth.
Its amazing to me folks give Hughes a pass for well below average performances, yet rip on Matsui who has been great the last two months of this season.
Big picture guy checking in again. Would’ve been nice to win yesterday, didn’t happen. Anyway in the 13 stretch that started Friday night and culminating in 3 games at the Stadium vs. Seattle, the Yankees are now 1-2. I wanted them to go 8-5 in that stretch so still plenty of time to accomplish that. Starts with winning 2 of these 4 tough games starting tonight. Then it means sweeping Tampa Bay and winning 2 of 3 vs. Seattle. That would give the Yankees 79 wins with 21 easier games left. 14-7 over those games gets 93 wins. That should do it.
Oh and one other thing, lets not forget the Yankees control their own destiny with 3 vs. Seattle.
Josh,
That’s the problem when discussing Hughes. He has NOT done great so far. Far from it.
If “great” is 2-2 5.65 ERA, a 6.10 ERA since his return, then we have different definitions of the term “great”.
Now, if you want to say we are asking too much of him right now, that’s an accurate statement. But, to say he has done “great” so far isn’t close to being correct.
Its ok to talk about somebody’s struggles at the big league level. Its not a sin. Everybody can see its been a struggle for him so far. Personally, I think its more about the time he has missed than anything else. However, let’s be candid, he has been FAR from “great” so far.
Joba Chamberlain has done “great” so far. That’s an accurate statement.
To say Hughes has just isn’t correct. Just because he is 21 years old, doesn’t mean we have to change the evaluation rules with him.
I am sure even Hughes himself would say he has not done “great” thus far.
We will win wildcard eventually.
I don’t want him out of the lineup but I hate the fact the Yankees have 3 DHs (Damon, Matsui, Giambi) on this team and when they play the field I have to hold my breath that they won’t blow it… I would play Damon more in left because he has better range and is probably healthier than Matsui at this point since he hasn’t played the field as much but then you have his girlie arm, and Giambi at first if you want him to play… tough decisions but the Yanks best lineup is with all three of them in there
Its a good point. Its tough to juggle everybody.
Matsui makes great plays and bad plays in LF. Its hard to label him a “bad” OF based on the Granderson play because he was playing way over in left center on him.
The pitch was supposed to be in. But Hughes missed his location and Granderson hit it down the leftfield line. Where he never hits balls.
Obviously, Matsui overran the ball. That happens in a game. They scored 2 other runs in the inning (can’t throw a 3-1 BP fastball down the middle of the plate to Guillen), and gave up 2 more.
To say, because they lost by one run, the inside the park HR cost them the game, is not accurate. You can’t figure how a game is going to be played out. I’d argue, giving up 4 more runs in the game didn’t help.
Joel Sherman of the Post had a good story today about Hughes. He explained, in much fewer words, the points I have been trying to make about him. Its worth checking out because its a balanced, accurate read of where Hughes is right now from a developmental standpoint.
SJ44,
You hit the nail on the head when talking about Hughes. We’ve seen flashes from him, but just flashes. I also think it’s too early coming back from his injury to expect greatness from him. I think the real Phil shows up injury-free next year and starts kicking tail and taking names. A rookie pitcher has to take his lumps, just like rookie quarterbacks in the NFL.
We won’t even win the wild card. Not enough pitching and we’re old.
Torre needs some caffeine or something.
Cashman should be fired.
Some of this may be a ‘dead arm’ period for Hughes, remember he hasn’t pitched much this year with all the injuries, this is like extended spring training. Will be interesting to see if his velocity picks up some in the next few weeks.
Also, we have to remind ourselves that these struggles are a rite of passage for many great pitchers, one the Yankees have not done a good job of working through in the past for various reasons from George to always being in a race.
Some examples:
Greg Maddux
1987, age 21 season: 5.61 ERA (+77), 1.78 WHIP
1988, age 22 season: 3.18 ERA (+114), 1.25 WHIP
Mark Mulder
2000, age 23 season: 5.44 ERA (+87), 1.69 WHIP
2001, age 24 season: 3.45 ERA (+126), 1.16 WHIP
John Smoltz
1988, age 21 season: 5.48 ERA (+67), 1.672 WHIP
1989, age 22 season: 2.94 ERA (+124), 1.11 WHIP
Sometimes it’s more gradual, ie,
Ben Sheets
2001, age 22 season: 4.76 ERA (+93), 1.414 WHIP
2002, age 23 season: 4.15 ERA (+96), 1.42 WHIP
2004, age 25 season: 2.70 ERA (+154), .98 WHIP
Hughes’ peripherals, especially his 1.22 WHIP and his K rate of nearly 1 per inning, are very encouraging. Barring injury, he will be fine, albeit more likely in 2008 than now. If we get a terrific stretch drive from him that would be an unexpected (perhaps unrealistic) bonus.
Also,games like yesterday are the kind of struggling you don’t mind seeing if you have to endure it, he showed the resilience and poise that scouts love about him.
Finally the notion of ‘taking out the no-hit game’ and calculating his stats is just lazy selectivity. Why not remove the KC game instead on Aug. 4, which gets his ERA down to 4.5 (virtually the same ERA Clemens pitched to his rookie year)?
Is he here a year early? Sure. Would being up here a year later make a substantial perfomance difference in his first year? Unlikely. Better to get the growing pains done now so long as we keep him healthy.
Wake up. Yanks are where they are because of Mussina and Clemens, not a 21 year old rookie.
I would also submit, the Yankees made a mistake in Hughes’ development and they know it.
Here me out on this.
He has only pitched 275 innings in his professional career. That’s less than 100 inning a year. Not a lot of innings over his career to date. In fact, its on the low side for somebody of Hughes’ pedigree.
They have babied him too much, IMO. So much so, he has no idea how to minimize damage. We see it in his starts.
You look at his starts and he has one implosion inning per start. Often, that’s the difference between winning and losing a game.
He doesn’t know how to minimize damage because he has never learned how to do it in the minors. It was always pitch counts with him.
I watched Hughes pitch a lot in the minors. Almost everytime he had games in which he struggled, he got pulled early. The reason? Pitch counts.
He has seen VERY few 7th innings in his starts in his young career, let alone 8th and 9th innings.
Yet, here he is on Monday night in Anaheim, with a lead, pitching in the 7th inning. How in the world can we expect him to be able to handle that when he didn’t have to do it in the minors? Its an awful lot to ask of him, IMO.
How do you learn how to pitch if you are not allowed to scrap your chin in the minors?
Its pretty tough to learn this stuff now in the Yankees rotation, after you have missed 3 months of the season with leg injuries.
Contrast that with how the Yankees are developing their next 3 top prospects: Joba, Ian Kennedy and Alan Horne.
The Yankees have shot Chamberlain and Kennedy through the system faster than any two pitchers I can ever remember. Even faster than Hughes.
All three guys are throwing more innings, against better competition, and are having to work their way out of difficulties more than Hughes ever had to do. Hell, they have put Chamberlain up against the best hitters in the game with games on the line!
That’s significant because all three guys have had more injuries (particularly arm injuries) in their careers than Hughes. Yet, they have still been pushed harder. Especially, on the innings front.
JMO but, I believe the Yankees have been burned so much over their missteps with pitchers, I think they kept the training wheels on Hughes a little too long. Probably, out of fear he would get hurt. Almost like a parent being fearful of their small child getting hurt playing with other kids.
I don’t think that’s been in the best interests of Hughes. Now, he’s got it tough. A lot of hype, only 21 years old, and in the rotation of the most well known franchise in sports. Oh, by the way, they are desperate not to miss the playoffs for the first time in almost 15 years and you have to win your starts to help them make the playoffs.
That’s pressure and that’s a lot to ask of a kid who has so little experience.
‘Just read Joel Sherman’s latest “article” on Hughes. Can someone tell this nimrod the Yanks are only 2 games behind Seattle for the wilcard and Seattle has only 7 games vs. really bad teams in their final 34 (4 vs. T.B. + 3 vs. Texas to close out the regular season). ‘Thing is, T.B. will probably start their 1-2 rotation punch of Shields and Kazmir who are having good seasons in that 4-gamer and T.B. always plays Seattle tough, so that series is no 3-1 or 4-0 gimme for Seattle. 4-game series are always difficult to take 3 out fo 4 and how many 4-game sweeps have happened since 2000? Plenty but probably nowhere close to the number of splits and even 3 of 4s. Also Seattle just split one with Texas which isn’tpostseason material. The Yanks dropping 3 of 4 or splitting would be certainly more understandable and acceptable than splitting vs. one of the dregs of M.L.B. nevermind just the A.L.
Onto Hughes. Sherman says he has two pitches to be a #3 starter like that’s bad when it isn’t. ‘Say Hughes is #3 good next year. That’s fantastic at age 22. He’s right behind ace Wang and I assume a returning Pettitte. If Hughes is a #3 next year, a #2 in ’09, and an ace in ’10, he’s an ace at only 24. Right now Hughes is barely a #5, hopefully he can rebound and give the Yanks a serviceable September.
Baby steps.
You know what, Hughes could be better but he’s learning, we can’t ask him to become the staff ace at 21. Mussina needs to pick it up, needs to show some of the dominance he showed last year. If Mussina doesn’t get back on track tonight we are in big trouble.
Phil also only gave up 4 hits, granted they all led to runs being scored. But he can take something from this start. Basically any mistake pitch will be hit out of the park, and not swung on and missed like it is in the minors. Also Gator sat down with him and spoke to him about what ever misteakes he saw, while it was still fresh. He is not getting the snot beat out of him, he is taking is lumps but it will help him in the long run.
Correction: Yanks losing 3 of 4 or splitting with Detroit is more acceptable than splitting with an awful team like Texas.
A split with Detroit makes it a nice 5-3 as I expected. I didn’t expect 6-2 and only a fool expected 7-1/ 8-0.
hughes has been ok
matsui has been excellent with the bat but he’s normally sub-par when it comes to defense . its the way it is . the inside the park homer was a fluke and a hr none the less . a slicing pop that matsui couldnt get to . it took a hop and BAM a running hr .
yanks have to win tonight .
I hope Mike can win tonight, but his record after losses isn’t filling me with confidence.
I would be more concerned about Hughes if not for the way he is getting a good deal of outs; strikeouts and weak hacks. Compared to the luck/seat-of-your pants outs that Small, Rasner, Karstens, et al were getting in the recent past, I’ll take Hughes any day. I can certainly agree that since Hughes has faced little adversity in his career he is going to have to learn many of those lessons on the job but don’t fault the Yankees for that. Pitch counts are designed to prevent injury and for a young pitcher they have decided that is the most important reason even if is means suboptimizing other develop areas. They were probably hoping he would get some of this at AAA this year but he wasn’t even getting this when he was still there before big league events forced a change in plan.
I thought Michael Kay and Al Leiter nailed it yesterday when they said Hughes is sufferring in comparison to Joba. Joba has come up the way you imagine a star prospect would, actually way more impressive then could have reasonably been expected. Hughes just does not look as good as Joba right now. The good news is they can grow up together and hopefully both have long productive careers here.
The loss column is what counts. They are 3 out in the loss column. That’s what matters.
Playing the schedule game is fools gold. The Yankees have 6 more left with Baltimore and only a fool would peg those games as “easy” Yankee wins. Baltimore has owned the Yankees this year. So, the schedule game could be played both ways.
They will go as far as their starting pitching takes them. Right now, if their starters don’t improve, it won’t be taking them to the playoffs.
Nobody is asking Hughes to be an ace. However, if he can’t pitch better than he is at the present time, their chances of making the playoffs are very slim.
His numbers since his return are Igawa-like. Unfortunate, but true.
I would venture to say that, if Phil Hughes is the number 3 starter for the Yankees next year, they are in big trouble. He’s not ready for that role. Not even close, IMO.
It would also mean, Pettitte is retiring, which would kill their rotation next year.
Their Top 3 next year, IMO, should be Wang, Pettitte and Chamberlain. Three guys, contrasting styles, all very, very tough.
I have been on the fence re: whether Chamberlain should be in the bullpen or in the rotation in 2008.
However, the more I think about it, and the more I see how much Hughes needs to do to get better, I think Chamberlain needs to be in the rotation next year. He’s already shown he has great stuff and great makeup. He also has shown he can go deeper into games (did it all season in the minors) and maintain his stuff, than Hughes has shown.
That has sold me on Chamberlain being in the rotation next year.
Here are my comments on Hughes
1. The expectations from Hughes are huge. That 6+ inning no-hitter in Texas did more bad than good for Huges. After that all the yanks expect him to a throw a no-hitter every time. Expecting too much from a 21 year pitcher.
2.Also Cashman added more pressure on Hughes by saying at the trade deadline that “NO TEAM IS GOING TO ADD A BETTER PITCHER THAN HUGHES AT THE TRADE DEADLINE”. That only raised the expectations.
3. And finally all yankee fans have to come to grips tha Philip Hughes was rushed. I blame Carl Pavano for that. If Pavano pitched like the 10 mill a year pitcher or not get injured they would not have rushed Hughes. Pavano was injured and all the Yankee pitching prospects flopped and they had to rush Philip Hughes.
http://www.replacementlevel.co.....hil_hughes
y is Andrew Brackman on our 40 man roster?
Philip Huges
38.2 Innings 2-2 5.35 ERA 36K
Kei Igawa
62.1 Innings 2-3 6.79 ERA 51K
Those stats r more similar than I expected.
In Phil Hughes’ last 2 outings he pitched good enough to win. Vizcaino lost his last one and no run support lost yesterday’s game. All he can do is get better and will.
If Torre is not comming back after this season Andy Pettite is not comming back as well. As simple as that. And Torre’s return may also have an effect on Mo & POsada’s long term contracts. Did someone here said that Clemens is comming back next year?
List of excuses we’ll hear from Mussina after tonight’s game:
a. I didn’t feel right
b. I couldn’t hit the corners
c. Too many close calls not my way
d. fielding mistakes were costly
e. a new excuse
SJ44 is a sky is falling type of thinker I see. Hughes at the age of 21 has a 1.22 WHIP. That’s what really matters, not what his ERA is. ERA is a very misleading stat considering in one game since his return Viz allowed both inherited runners to score and then in another game bad defense caused an inside the park hr. Those two games would dramatically lower his ERA.
Also there is no way Phil Hughes was rushed to the majors, he was dominating in the minors and the only way to gain experience is by pitching in the majors. Of course when you are a rookie pitching in NY everything is magnified 100 fold. Please do not compare Joba with Phil, Joba pitches 1 inning every other game, again I ask you have you ever heard of small sample sizes? Hughes has pitched okay this year and he’ll only get better with more experience in the majors, not facing minor leaguers that are clearly out of his league.
Moose,
I am worried after seeing the stats you provided. All the 4 21-22 year old pitchers u provided are National League pitchers(Smoltz,Maddux,Sheets, Mulder). I think a better comparision for Hughes should be Felix Hernandez of Seattle Mariners.
I’ve been trying to figure out why on earth mlb would schedule today’s game as a night game when both the Yanks and the Tiggers have to travel to play teams tomorrow that both have off today. Then I saw that the game is on ESPN2. Reason #5874 why I can’t stand that network.
I guess there is a problem about being honest.
I agree about Chamberlain in the rotation next year. In fact, I strongly disagree with any talk of him in the bullpen becuase he cannot develop there AND guys who throw in the high 90s with command and movement into the 7th inning are rare gems (Zumaya can go 2 innings vs. Verlander can go 7, but hopefuly not today).
BUT what happens next year when Joba struggles — because he sure as hell will struggle at times?
—– Joba won’t struggle in the rotation next year. He’s too great to struggle. Haven’t you seen how he’s dominated big league hitters this year? Plus the Yankees never babied him the minors they let him pitch through all kinds of trouble in the whole 100 innings he pitched this year in the minors. Trust me when I say Joba will not do a Phil Hughes impression next year in the majors if he’s in the rotation, okay? OKAY! lol
Everybody struggles in baseball. Its how you handle the struggles.
If you have never struggled, then you have never been put into the position to struggle. That means, it takes longer to figure it out.
I am not a pessimistic fan at all. I am a realistic one and that rubs the cheerleaders the wrong way.
Hughes was rushed to the majors. The GM of the team, who knows more than we do, has said the plan all along was for him to stay in AAA. Perhaps, for the rest of the season.
He’s here now. That means, he was rushed.
Unfortunately, due to injuries and ineffectiveness, they scrapped the plan.
He was “dominating” in the minor leagues while being VERY protected.
Its more than just reading a stat sheet or deciding the only stat that matters (because you like it) is his WHIP.
There are more stats that matter than WHIP. If not, the game would be played on a video board and not on the field.
Bottom line, and go back and look at his minor league starts, he was babied. Never went deep into games. Never did it back to back and, IMO, that has hurt his development.
Add in a 3 month injury, and we have what we have right now. A kid, with potential, who has no business being in the majors right now because he isn’t ready.
He isn’t here because he is “ready”, regardless of the hype. He is here because they are DESPERATE for somebody to be able to pitch in this rotation.
Their desperation has taken them to paying a record number for a pitcher (Clemens) and putting a 21 year old out there before his time.
The oldest and the youngest pitchers in the majors in one rotation.
Here’s an AFLAC question. Has there ever been a team that had the oldest and youngest pitchers in their starting rotation? A follow up question. If the answer is “yes”, did that team make the playoffs?
It is what it is. We just have to hope he, along with the rest of the staff, can pick it up the rest of the way.
testing to see if I can post.
SJ44 Chamberlain has also been rushed to the majors if you want to put it that way. Was the “plan” to have Chamberlain pitching the 7/8th inning when the year started?
Cashman lies all the time about what the “plans” are for the team, at one point the “plan” was to have Bubba Crosby play centerfield so what the so called “plans” are for the organization matter not to me.
As far as ERA and WHIP are concerned, WHIP better illustrates how well a pitcher pitches because it tells you exactly how many baserunners are being allowed during a pitcher’s starts. A pitcher’s ERA can go up or down depending on how good a team’s bullpen and defense are. To say Phil Hughes is simply not ready to pitch in the big leagues is being terribly shortsighted as he hasn’t pitched all that bad in the limited amount of time he’s been here. Again I ask you, have you ever heard of small sample sizes?
SJ44 – Just to add one more thing about a pitcher being “babied”, “protected” whatever, have you ever heard of the Joba Rules, if that’s not being babied nothing is. Yet you say the organization has made a mistake babying Hughes but you make no mention of the babying that Chamberlain is receiving. The way you contradict yourself is amazing.
I don’t think Cashman ever considered Bubba as a potential everyday CF, but what do you want him to say “Bubba stinks, we need help and will overpay”….it was a negotiation bluff.
EdWhitson my point is that you never know what the plans are of the Yankees organization or any organization for that matter because GM’s lie all the time.
We only have small sample sizes to work with right now. We aren’t making career judgments on the kid. We are talking about his performance at this time.
Its funny, when somebody struggles, we bring out the “small sample size” card, even when its not applicable.
Phil Hughes has started 7 times in the majors. He has struggled in 5 of those starts. Small sample size or not, he hasn’t pitched well. When you examine all of his numbers, not just the ones you like, support that fact.
Hell, even people in the game, who are hugely high on him, are commenting that it may be too much, too soon. Its not an out of bounds thought.
I’m not sure babying a 20-21 year old pitcher is a terrible idea….see Mark Prior…..also, Joba has a cap limit of innings this year…I believe it is around 180, ex. playoffs, which is one reason he was converted to a reliever at the MLB level – so as not to exceed the cap…..also, out pen stunk and needed help…going from a college pitcher to throwing 200+ innings is probably not as easy as people here think….also he pitched in the Fall league, which added some innings
The Joba Rules have nothing to do with it.
The Joba Rules are in place because of two reasons:
1. They are taking a starter and making him a relief pitcher in season. That’s a completely different way of using somebody and the rules are in place to protect him.
That’s not “babying” somebody. That’s protecting him because they are changing him over in season.
Reason #2: To make sure Joe Torre doesn’t overuse him.
Go look at Chamberlain’s starts in the minors and see if he was babied like Hughes. He pitched deeper into games than Hughes at similar times in their development.
He not only pitched deeper into games, he had to work his way out of trouble more than Hughes has in his minor league starts. He has pitched into the 7th inning more in less than one full season of work, than Hughes has had to do in his entire career.
If you can’t distinguish between the two situations, that’s your problem and not mine.
SJ44, Joba was a college pitcher and Hughes was a high school pitcher which is one reason why he he wasn’t allowed to pitch deeper into games.
2 – The Joba Rules are pretty much being laughed at right now. Joba threw 10 pitches in his last outing and couldn’t pitch for another day after that. So yes that is being babied rather you want to believe it or not.
B. These are Phil Hughes other stats this year even though as you say he’s truly not ready.
W% #PIT TBF #P/PA #P/IP #P/GS K/9 K/BB AVG OBP SLG OPS
.500 645 160 4.03 16.7 92.1 8.38 2.40 .221 .294 .386 .680
He’s averaging nearly a strikeout per inning and less than a hit per inning. Opponents batting average is .221 and they’re slugging .386 and he’s overmatched? Puh-lease. His walk total is abnornally high as he’s issued 15 walks in a little over 38 innings.
To me that’s a pretty good line for a rookie pitcher. For you SJ44 it’s a pitcher who’s totally overmatched. I just don’t see it.
Joba may have been a college pitcher, but his injury history was more extensive than Hughes.
So much so, teams took him off their draft list (according to Peter Gammons, as many as 18) because of his injuries. Hughes had never had those type of issues surrounding him.
Yet, Chamberlain, as well as Kennedy and Horne (coming off TJ Surgery, no less) for that matter, are working deeper into games, pitching more innings and having to get out of jams more than Hughes has had to do in his young career to date.
Clearly, something has changed within the organization because Chamberlain, Kennedy and Horne are being developed differently than Hughes has been. Its not a coincidence these guys are being developed differently, IMO.
The Rules are being “laughed at” by whom? Joe Torre? Al Leiter? Tom Verducci?
They took a kid who was a starter all season, and made him a relief pitcher. They have no choice but to protect him.
Do you not think that is a major change? If not, then you don’t know anything about pitching.
Hi nyy, corrections:
Mulder was an AL pitcher. How soon we forget Oakland’s Big Three.
And pointing out all these pitchers are NL pitchers does not support your insinuation Hughes is underperforming, in fact it goes against it: So Hughes is actually doing way better his first year in the much more difficult AL than all these future aces incl 2 probably HOFers.
SJ wrote: “I would venture to say that, if Phil Hughes is the number 3 starter for the Yankees next year, they are in big trouble. He’s not ready for that role. Not even close, IMO.”
That was the whole point of my post showing the initial struggles of young pitchers. Do you think most observers of Maddux, Mulder, Smoltz, Sheets, etc. in their rookie seasons would have said these guys were going to be great in year two? How about the guys who saw Clemens in his first year give up many more hits than IP? They probably wrote a bunch of stuff about those guys being rushed, overmatched, overhyped, etc.
To pontificate that he is “not even close” to a #3 pitcher in 2008 is absurd unless you are questioning his ability to go 200 innings (which does concern me). But I’d be willing to make a bet with you that barring an injury, Phil Hughes’ first 150 innings next year will have an ERA+ of 105 or better and be in the top 30 of AL starters, if not better. In other words comfortably a #3 and maybe a #2.