Torre on Joba: No message was sent. But …
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- August
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Here is Joe Torre’s postgame interview:
A few points on this thing:
Scott Proctor threw a pitch at the head of Kevin Youkilis on June 1 that grazed him and Proctor was ejected. Coincidence or not, it happened to the same player again today.
Youkilis is clearly one of those guys who gets under the skin of opposing teams. He’s also adept at hanging in for long at-bats, flicking away pitches to stay alive. The Yankees play Boston three more times and could well meet them again in the ALCS. Maybe this was a message for Youkilis not to dig in so much.
Roger Clemens is on this team now and has the locker right next to Joba Chamberlain. Roger is as old school as it gets in baseball. I have no idea if Roger told him to dust Youkilis. But would I bet my house against it?
Would you?
We’ve watched the kid throw 131 pitches in his first 10 innings and he had three walks, two in his first game, and no hit batsmen. He doesn’t have good control, he has the kind of control that enabled him to hit the outer half of the plate against Vlad Guerrero with a 100-mph heater.
One pitch gets away? OK. Two pitches? Now you start to wonder.
Don’t misunderstand me. Intimidation is part of the game and Chamberlain is well within his rights to back a guy off. But the umpires are well within their rights to eject a pitcher before somebody gets hurt, too.
Again, I am not accusing Chamberlain of anything. But there’s plenty of evidence that suggests this may not have been an accident. Pitchers have been trying to make hitters think for 100 years.
This is why Yanks-Sox is what it is and the rest of baseball and only envy the passion. There is nothing like it in the sport.
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on Thursday, August 30th, 2007 at 6:19 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Pete-
I am all for drilling guys, especially crybabies like Youk on teams that have hit us more in the past. But if Joba is so pinpoint as you suggest, why didn’t he put one between his shoulder blades? Less dangerous, and much more effective.
Right on Michael. If Joba wanted to nail him, he would have done it.
And certainy not twice.
I’d rather see Rocket or Jaba put one in Ortiz’s ribs, kinda like Dice K did to A Rod. Or at least hit Kyle Farns-worthless
“Roger Clemens is on this team now and has the locker right next to Joba Chamberlain.”
Just glad Joba’s locker isn’t next to Farnsworth’s…
Personally, I don’t care if Joba buzzing Youk was intentional or not. Either way, it works to Yanks’ advantage:
Big dude with heater will throw inside, or
same dude, same heater didn’t mean to, but
the ball went up and in. Makes no difference
in the [desirable] outcome, that being BoSox batters
being a bit more hesitant to dig in.
Anybody remember Ryne Duren?
You know Torre and Yanks got alot of flak for “not” pitching in on the Red Sox earlier this year – we let them plunk our guys and throw in tight and we lost…
He didn’t want to hit him. He wanted to knock him down. Clemens used to do that once a week.
I’ve watched every pitch Chamberlain has thrown in person. Every one. He hasn’t come close to hitting anybody. Now all of a sudden he misses two like that in a row in the same place?
OK, maybe. But if something quacks like a duck, it’s usually a duck.
Peter,
You’re off-base here. Chamberlain has good control, but I’ve watched him pitched in minor league games in which he overthrew his fastball. There really wasn’t any point for throwing at Youk today. It doesn’t make any sense.
Tell Joba next time then that he is a liar.
He seems like an old school guy and it isn’t old school to deny so adamently that you were throwing inside.
Peter,
Again, you’re way off-base here. Today’s pitches were too far above Youk’s head to knock him down.
Tell Joba to save one for Papi and Manny…
I think he was throwing a Youk, no way he misses two pitches back to back like that, hes been way too good for that to happen.
pete,
make up your mind and stop talking out of both sides of your mouth
in the game blog you wrote: I find it hard to believe that Chamberlain would throw at the head of Youkilis on purpose. What reason would there be?
and now you write:
We’ve watched the kid throw 131 pitches in his first 10 innings and he had three walks, two in his first game, and no hit batsmen. He doesn’t have good control, he has the kind of control that enabled him to hit the outer half of the plate against Vlad Guerrero with a 100-mph heater.
One pitch gets away? OK. Two pitches? Now you start to wonder.
Don’t misunderstand me. Intimidation is part of the game and Chamberlain is well within his rights to back a guy off. But the umpires are well within their rights to eject a pitcher before somebody gets hurt, too.
Again, I am not accusing Chamberlain of anything. But there’s plenty of evidence that suggests this may not have been an accident….
one or the other hot shot!
Why was he throwing at him? Somebody give me a good reason why the Yankees would do that with back to back pitches.
I really think it was just a hitch in his mechanics. If he was so intent on throwing at Youk, one of those pitches would’ve hit him between the numbers, not hit the backstop on a fly.
Of course, the danger here is that with all the postgame questions and discussion, this now gets into his mind and next time he is on the mound he is thinking about his mechanics instead of doing whatever he’s been doing now.
I’m pretty sure we don’t have Rick Ankiel on our hands, but I may send Joba out to throw a few pitches right now just to make sure…
I’m sorry, but if he was gunning for him that is pretty stupid. I hate Youkillis as much as anyone, but you don’t throw 98mph fastballs at ANYONE’S head. Imagine if he had gotten hit. He literally could have died. If you want to hit him with a fastball, hit him in the lower body, not the head.
crawdaddy
August 30th, 2007 at 6:46 pm
“Why was he throwing at him? Somebody give me a good reason why the Yankees would do that with back to back pitches.”
MGW
August 30th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Personally, I don’t care if Joba buzzing Youk was intentional or not. Either way, it works to Yanks’ advantage:
Big dude with heater will throw inside, or
same dude, same heater didn’t mean to, but
the ball went up and in. Makes no difference
in the [desirable] outcome, that being BoSox batters
being a bit more hesitant to dig in.
Anybody remember Ryne Duren?
shocked to see a sportswriter trying to make more out of a situation than there is
JT:
You are right. I blogged during the game and believed what I wrote at the time. But then I remembered that Proctor threw at Youkilis in June. Then I talked to a few people in both clubhouses and started to wonder. Then you start adding things up and you change your mind.
Again, I’m not saying Joba is right or wrong. But what happened does make you wonder.
Actually, I can come up with a long list of reasons why the Yankees and Joba would throw at him:
- Batters are adjusting, cheating a little and right handers in particular need to cover the outer half of the plate against that wicked slider. Intimidation is a good thing.
- Regarding above, last game of a 3-game set with a 5 run lead and nearing the bottom of the order is pretty good timing for delivering such a message; Savvy?
- The Redsox in general have gotten away with murder against us and I am sure Roger is looking around the clubhouse like “am I the only one who has the sack to protect my mates?” Joba seems like someone who would respect that.
- Youk is a whining punk and I am sure the Yankees are a little tired of his antic just as we are. Pedroi too but Roger took care of that business.
However, I still believe if that is what he was doing he would have done it once, hit him and given the old “I have to pitch inside up here to be effective and that one just got away a little bit”, which everyone knows is the code for “yeah I drilled him and I’ll do it again if he keeps diggin in on me”. Joba is mature beyond his years and I think he knows the drill, and would man up if it truly was a purpose pitch.
Instead, he and Torre went out of there way to excuse it as the ball(s) getting away. Sometimes a duck simply is a duck.
I agree dontfirecash, a throw in that neck of the woods is just too risky even to send a message, that’s why I’m convinced it wasn’t intentional as Joba said in his post-game. And Joba would have to be a real nutball to do that twice considering all the circumstances. PA, it’s obvious to me others have your ear which is why you change your mind on certain issues. On this you had it right the first time.
Pete,
I don’t pretend to have any special knowledge into Joba Chamberlain the person, but I do think that if he’s going to hit someone, it ain’t gonna be in the head.
Please remember that his dad is in a wheelchair due to Polio. Granted, Polio is different from ending up disabled or permanently injured due to a by a badly placed baseball, but still…..
Pete did you ever play the game or are like Michael Kay , afraid to get hit?
Does anyone here think that the pitches that Joba threw over Youkilis’ head has anything to do with the fact that A-rod was hit earlier in the series and then in the bottom of the 8th the red sox pitcher threw at pitch near Andy Phillips head?
C`mon Pete Joba was just being Joba!
The Rules of Engagement are very simple, don`t crowd the plate, the inside belongs to Joba.
Bob:
What difference does that make? But, yes, I played and coached when I was younger. I’ve been around baseball all my life
Next time Angel Hernandez bends down to dust off the plate give him a good fastball to his butt.
Pete your still a kid, I`m just pulling your leg!
Soooooo, Joba’s guilty of head-hunting cuz his locker is near Clemens’, despite his and his manager’s statements to the contrary? Way to uncover THAT smoking gun, Woodward. Brilliant! Who lockers near Mussina? Guess Youkilis’ll never have anything to worry about from that guy, will he?
Pete:
From what you know of Joba, do you think there is any danger of this getting in his head and messing up his control the next time out, if it indeed was a mechanical thing of 2 balls just “getting away”?
Pete,
This was deliberate, calculated, and premeditated. Whether Joe officially gave him the green light or mere tacit approval, the Yanks were clearly sending a message.
I also watched the sob story on the postgame by Joe and Joba. They sold it well, and I’m sure the sentimental crowd here will buy it hook line and sinker. I also saw two 100mph fastballs wizz right above Youks head, in almost the exact spot on immediately successive pitches against a huge foe.
You can call it throwing at, brushing back or whatever. My point is the pitch was designed to send a message. The Sux seemed to have got it loud and clear. Not sure why there are so many gullible fans here. Either way, it had the intended and calculated affect. One pitch above Youks head like that would have been overwhelming evidence.
Torre was ridiculous chewing out the umps. They did what they were supposed to. Imagine if pimplepopper did that to Jete or Arod, we would all be screaming like chimpanzees. Cant blame them there at all.
BJ
BJ
Joba was all over the place today…he had awful command, and it’s 100% possible that he got too amped up and made two awful pitches. But carry on with the conspiracy theories.
I can’t find it now, but I swear there was a time when Don Drysdale was asked which pitch was his most effective. His reply was something like his second brushback pitch of the day, because then they knew the first one wasn’t a mistake.
Was I dreaming it?
I have to disagree. Does the kid have great control? Yes. Is he human? I hope so. He clearly didnt have his normal control. Even though he was a bit out of control in the 8th inning he got out of it. Could the first high pitch have been on purpose? Of course. But you dont throw another pitch like that twice in a row. He could have been trying to paint the inside high corner but I think everyone who thinks those two pitches were on purpose are nuts. He’s allowed to miss pitches too. Its not like he’s the only pitcher on the planet that doesnt throw the exact pitch exactly where he wants it every single time. That kid is thinking about starting a fight with two outs left in a game we’re winning 5-0. That doesnt make sence. It certainly doesnt make sence to get Boston pissed and wanting to retaliate when we have 3 games left with them. It doesnt make any sence and IMO the arguement is stupid.
I disagree Pete. Today was a day that Joba’s command wasn’t that great. It was all over the place.
I have been at some of his starts this year when he has airmailed a few pitches. They were always fastballs and they always came when he was really jacked up.
I was at his starts in Jupiter, FL this year when he airmailed one that was coming right at my face. Thankfully, there was a good net in place! lol
Nobody at the minor league level whined about it and nobody thought he was throwing at anybody. He was never even issued a warning by the umpires.
I am not saying the kid is Ryan Duran (for the kids in the blog, ask your parents who he was) but, he wasn’t sending any messages to Youkilis.
Its just the Red Sox setting the stage to try and get the inner half of the plate for the next series.
What better way to do it than to whine about him throwing at their hitters. If he gets a warning the time out against them, or is hesistant to come inside, its smart strategy on their part.
Talking about this also deflects the fact they just got swept by their rivals.
I was at the game, three rows back to the left of the Yankee dugout and I say it was an accident. Joba just seemed off in the 8th inning and then even more off in the 9th. He had that breaking pitch the other night that bounced to home, why can’t he lose control with a high inside pitch? He’s just a kid, after all. At this point it’s enough that he has to deal with the fog of hype that has descended on him, much less try and start playing head games with the Red Sox, who had basically given up on the game by that point anyway (which was pointed out to me by Red Sox fans to my right who said the reliever they brought in in the 8th was someone the Sux bring in whenever the game was basically a wrap–tho, ha, they said they still would take him over crazy Kyle anyday!).
All that being said, big major props to Edwar for finishing off the Sux. Gawd, he’s such a skinny kid. From my seat, I’d have guessed he was about 16-years old.
p.s. Much fun was had walking to the subway and watching some Yanks fans sweep the sidewalk anytime they saw Sux fans approaching.
Posada calls for a fastball and it sails to the backstop. I would imagine that Posada might call a different pitch (slider?) just to settle down the amped up pitcher and then maybe go back to the fastball.
It’s all so curious. Frankly I wish Cahmberlain wasn’t on in the 9th with the score 5-0. If the 2 pitches to the backstop were to send a message the better message was a 3 game sweep of the RedSux in August.
This link is about how Don Drysdale pitched inside.
http://www.baseball-statistics.....ysdale.htm
Here’s a quote from that link – His philosophy on the knockdown pitch was simple: “If one of our guys went down, I just doubled it. No confusion there. It didn’t require a Rhodes scholar.”
I’m watching the game on replay now and he didn’t look as sharp as he normally does. I don’t think it was on purpose.
For what it is worth…I watched every home game Joba pitched at Nebraska and a few on the road. I can tell you it just happened. Joba did not purposely throw at his head
Janet. Thank you for posting that.
As someone else pointed out, while it isn’t the samething his father has been in a wheelchair for most of his life, I can’t see him intentially throwing at someones head.
pete’s probably right, but only joba (and likely clemens) really knows for sure. joba was trying to set a few rules of his own. can’t really blame him for trying to build a bit of a bad@$$ rep. it just didn’t pan out properly today, but it will eventually. i’d like to see him try that again soon. next candidate? chone figgins.
p.s. doesn’t joba like any metal or rock? i don’t know about that song he chose, pete have you listened to it?
I thought it looked intentional. two in a row, exact same spot, but on a team like the yankees, whose manager is often said he is against hitting opposing players, why would joba be going right after youks head? that doesn’t seem like throwing at a guy in the ribs, it’s his head and a 100 mph heater, very dangerous. i just plain can’t figure this one out!
Pete,
I think Youk would need to grow another 18 to 24 inches to manifest any real fear. He was only pumped and was over pitching, you saw the same game we did. Bad analysis.
In the first inning he pitched, Joba threw a similiar pitch when Pedroia was at the plate batting lefthanded. No fuss was made other than the announcers saying that Lowell, who was the next batter, better be alert at the plate. Joba’s command just wasn’t there.
About Drysdale, before games he would (playfully?) ask opposing batters where they wanted to be hit, in the ribs, butt, or legs.
Why doesn’t anyone mention the wild pitch that preceded the two high and insides. He was way low and outside on the second pitch – Posada just scooped it. The next pitch was wild the other way – a pretty common pattern when a pitcher loses the plate. The fourth pitch was the third wild pitch in a row – not the second – but the first was outside. If you think it the third wild pitch was intentional then you have to say the first wild pitch was setting up the second and third – and now you are starting to sound like a real conspiracy theorist. If barks like a dog, and walks like a dog – it’s definitely not a duck.
Testing out smileys
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:confused:
:troll:
:reading:
:rant:
:angel:
:clown:
and they don’t work. lol
:shocked: