Nobody beats the Viz, except the manager
-
- September
- 5
I asked Joe Torre after the game last night why he used Luis Vizcaino when it was 11-1 and he said it was because the Viz, “was loose.”
No wonder. Vizcaino has already appeared in 70 games and pitched 68.1 innings. He was used 76 times for 81.1 innings in 2002, so he’s used to it. They called him “Everyday” in Arizona last season.
But he is trending downward. The Viz has allowed six runs on nine hits and six walks in his last 5.2 innings over seven games. Opponents are hitting .375 with a .469 OBP in those games. Torre said he is overstriding when he pitches and it’s a flaw Ron Guidry is working to correct.
But some extra time off couldn’t hurt. Since June 9, the Viz has appeared in 43 games. Only Jon Rauch of the Nationals (45) has appeared in more games.
I can understand Torre not wanting to use Chris Britton or Edwar Ramirez in a fairly close game. But 11-1?
——————-
Did you know the Mariners are carrying 35 players? Poor Bob Sheppard should get combat pay for what he went through in the final innings last night as Wladimir Balantien, Jeff Clemens, Rob Johnson and Charlton Jimerson all saw some action.
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Peter Abraham
Maybe they should allow teams no more than 5 extra eligible players per game in September??? You can carry the 40 if you want, but you can have no more than 30 active for any 1 game.
That sounds fair…
How completely stupid…because he was loose ? I was loose too…do they fly me in from Cali and let me pitch ? STUPID, STUPID answer…
who have the Yankees called up this month so far?
can someone help me out here…
for some reason i thought that britton was a “hard-thrower”, but last night he was topping out at 90-91. is this his normal speed range?
anyone, anyone … bueller?
When he said he was loose he was referring to the fact that he warmed up in the pen in the 7th when it was still a close game and Wang showed brief signs of struggle. Once a pitcher gets up in the pen you might as well use him, because warming up is just as damaging as going into the game. And to be fair, Pete, Jose has been used pretty infrequently over the past 7 - 10 days.
“for some reason i thought that britton was a “hard-thrower’’, but last night he was topping out at 90-91. is this his normal speed range?”
yes. maybe a little slower than normal. but the perception that he was a 96-97 MPH guy last year isn’t true.
people just assume he throws hard b/c he is really fat.
“Loose?”
C’mon, Joe. You can do better than that!
If stringy Edwar can throw 93, by the laws of proportionality, you would think Britton can throw 100-103 mph.
Peter,
So are you going to allow us to vote on a name for the squirrel, or what?
people have thrown around names for the squirrel but nothing has stuck. I cant believe he got an article in the new york times
Subby615, I think Kennedy, Veras, Alberto Gonzales, Doug Mint….., and Britton, but I tink Britton was already up before the rosters expanded.
The *Squirrel* had been loosening up sense the 6th so why not use him. Honestly that’s just a dumb excuse. Viz needs all the rest he can get. He should never have used him.
Meant to say since the 6th. 6th Sense is a whole different story.
CountryClub, you took the words right out of my mouth. I can’t give Joe grief on this one.
I was in the upper deck in left last night, looking down on the Yanks’ pen. Viz had warmed in the 7th and Mariano was the only other pitcher who even had his sweatshirt off and all he did was start to stretch. I know that in an injury situation you can take all the time you want to warm up, but Viz was ready to go so I don’t know how much it would have helped him in the long run not to come in once he was already loose. As Pete said earlier, no one is a fan of the dry humps.
I’ll have to give Torre a pass on this one. Like CC said, Viz was warmed up from the previous inning and I’m sure the thought was he’d come in and throw a few pitches. He also hadn’t pitched in a few days. Unfortunately, he stunk. If you want to blame anyone, blame the Viz for throwing 22 pitches to get one out.
CountryClub when has that ever stopped Joe before?
No, I’ll blame Joe for bringing Viz in. Maybe if Joe hadn’t killed his arm earlier in the year he’d be more effective now. I don’t care how “loose” Viz was. Aren’t relievers used to getting loose in a hurry. Anybody, except for Viz should have been in at that moment. When Viz’ arm falls off next year and he’s the new Sturtze, Proctor, name your reliever we’ll all know why.
Joba hasent pithed in 6 games….that worries me a bit
That’s why I support the Joba rules, they probaly set that up so Torre couldn’t abuse him. Torre would probaly have Joba pitching everyday if he could. He abuses relievers, just a fact.
So Pete when are you going to have some kind of poll to name that squirrel?
In all honesty…it might not matter how much Torre uses the Viz down the stretch…the damage may already be done.
What was even more troubling to me last night was putting Wang back in the game after a 25 minute 7th inning. Joe’s reasoning for that? Since he’s force-feeding Moose back into the rotation, Wang won’t pitch for another 7 days. So if he pitches the 8th he’ll be sharper 7 days from now???? Sorry, but there is a reason why this guy once got the nickname “Clueless Joe.”
Its Jeff Clement, not Jeff Clemens
Kevin M. Joe is definitely clueless. But exactly what is Guidry’s job again? Isn’t the pitching coach supposed to have a say in how the pitcher’s are used?
Just in case anyone missed it in the last post…
Tyler Kepner produced a pretty cool multimedia show on how to pitch based on Moose’s (and now Ian Kennedy’s) style:
“Tylper Kepner’s Pitching in the MLB”:http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2007/08/17/sports/playmagazine/20070817_MUSSINA_GRAPHIC.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1189014484-JB76RnGK7ySuhFGckgr4qA#
(perhaps Moose should watch it again).
Guidry is the PC but Eiland has been with these kids for a couple of years so he knows them much better than Guidry.
I don’t think Guidry gets much of a say..
His main job is to make sure they correct whatever they’re doing wrong mechanically..
If the pitchers are tired, worn down, etc, Im sure he notices and maybe mentions something, but I don’t think he has enough swing to change Joes mind..
He’s not the first frontline reliever to pitch in blowout games this year for the Yankees. How many times did Torre have Proctor pitch in blowout games? More than I care to remember.
This kind of work is cumulative on relief pitchers. Fact is, as the big inning was unfolding, he could have gotten Britton, Veras or Ramirez up so they would be ready if they blew the game open. Its a pretty simple solution. Much better than burning Viz in a blowout game.
The fact is, Torre is an awful manager of bullpens. At this point, the evidence is so overwhelming its no longer debatable.
Its why they traded Scott Proctor. Its why they have Joba Rules, and its why this team has lost at least 8 games this year because of bullpen mismanagement. Games they may rue they lost if they miss the playoffs.
Its not just the games you use a pitcher when its not necessary. Its the games you lose said pitcher because he is overworked or unavailable in the game(s) you may need him. That’s the problem with his bullpen (mis)management.
Its his blind spot as a manager. Its been that way throughout his career. He overworked guys and Atlanta and St. Louis as well.
He is a GREAT manager of people. There is probably no manager in the game who could handle that locker room as well as he does. He is great with the media. A VITAL part of being manager of the Yankees.
However, he is WELL below average as an in game strategist and a handler of bullpens.
Its why after this season, the organization has to take ALL of this into consideration in determining whether or not he returns.
Its not going to be an easy decision. There are positives and negatives to bringing him back. Last night’s lastest mishap is just another check in the “don’t bring him back column”.
mrfadedglory wants to call the squirrel “Scooter”.
http://highandtight.blogspot.com/
Hah, Im ok with Scooter.
Anyone notice Proctor’s workload in LA? Looks the same to me. Amazing to me how some relief pitchers just can’t handle the workload anymore. Or some don’t pitch often enough. I now believe the answer lies in how well he pitchs each time out. If say ERam gives up runs,it’s because he hasn’t pitched enough. If Viz (who had gotten 2 outs in 6 days) gives up runs, it’s because he’s pitched too much. Since it’s been a while since Joba has pitched, I guess we’ll know after he pitches if he was out too long or not.
“I’ll blame Joe for bringing Viz in. Maybe if Joe hadn’t killed his arm earlier in the year he’d be more effective now.”
Only problem is that they needed Vizcaino to pitch all those innings when there were he and Rivera were the only reliable relievers in the pen. Without using (abusing?) Vizcaino so much, the Yankees may not be fighting for a playoff spot now.
“What was even more troubling to me last night was putting Wang back in the game after a 25 minute 7th inning.”
Two rookies are starting the next two games. It would have help in Wang had gone 8 or 9 to save the pen. His pitch count was low enough that it was a possibility.
Ok, off topic but everyone needs to check out the new iPod… basically the iPhone without the phone part- which for those who can’t stand AT&T or Cingular, this is perfect.
Plus the new iPod is wireless and Apple will release a wireless version of iTunes so you can download songs, videos, podcasts etc directly to the iPod.
Freakin awesome!!!!!
Bronx-
Yah.. We need the rookie to put up a couple of big showings.. We need some strong preformances
It’s settled then. From now on the rally squirrel will be called “SCOOTER”
sunny615 - I agree that was a great multimedia show that tyler put together for the times.
if you read his blog the day before tyler said he held off giving the written peice to moose after he pitched poorly (against the rays)…at this point i doubt he ever got to give it to moose.
probably not, but if Moose would watch it, it might help him throw better… (if only it were that easy).
Since the Yankees played an awful start and the BoSox got out to a crazy start…On May 29th…Boston was at 36-15, Yankees at 21-29 (14.5 games back)….Since then, Yankees are 56-33 ( .629 ) and Boston is only 48-40 ( .545 ) including the Yankees taking 5 out of the last 6 from Boston…….Granted making up the last 7 games of this 14.5 game hole is gonna be darn near impossible, but IF the Yankees sweep out Boston, that takes care of 3 of those games, and we CAN get the other 4 by staying on a tear and Boston playing its slightly over .500 ball ( which IS possible with the injury bug making its yearly visit to THEIR side of the street )
–”people have thrown around names for the squirrel but nothing has stuck. I cant believe he got an article in the new york times”
anyone got the link to that article? I can’t find it on the NYT site.
Chris-
Click my name, I have a link to it on my blog
thanks DMan77
The notion that Torre kills bullpens might be the biggest myth ever. Laziness is the only reason why the myth continues to exist. Rather than look at the facts, it’s easier to just say that Torre doesn’t know how to manage a bullpen and then point to the “ruined” careers of mediocre middle men who had absolutely no success until Torre managed them (Sturtze, Proctor, et al.) Take a look at the all time leaders in games pitched and saves. The list is filled with guys who Torre supposedly abused. Torre supposedly ruined the careers of Orosco and Reardon when he managed the Mets (one went on to pitch until he was 50, the other became the all time leader in saves). Torre supposedly ruined the careers of Garber and Bedrosian when he managed Atlanta (one went on to pitch 900+ games, the other went on to win a Cy Young). Torre supposedly burned out Lee Smith when he managed the Cardinals (he also went on to be an all time leader in saves).
Not agreeing with his bullpen usage is one thing. Saying that he has left a trail of dead relievers everywhere he has managed is just lazy commentary.
If Viz. is pitching badly now because of overuse, what was his excuse for the first two months of the season?
He is what he is, a better than average middle reliever who’s up and down like Paris Hilton’s undergarments. When you get a guy like that running hot you ride him until he drops.
Granted, using him with a 10 run lead is probably overdoing it. But Joe got 3 some-odd months of sub 2.00 ERA out of a guy who most of us wanted stood up against a wall back in May. Job well done, I say.
Viz will get killed no matter how much or little he is used because he is not very good.
Joe Torre will never win another World Series. He has 4 rings but the Yanks have to move on with a dynamic aggressive handler of a pitching staff. The young guy`s in the system have to be handled with care.
Middle relievers are a dime a dozen and the Yankees have plenty of dimes. Burn em up. If we had good middle relief pitchers everyone would be going on about how wonderful a bullpen manager Joe is.
To be honest, Viz, Proctor, and Sturte were never above average relief pitchers as some think. Each had a streak with the Yankees where they were good that everyone likes to point too. Bottom line, they are mostly run of the mill. Proctor pitched 100 innings at 29 years old and Torre “ruined” him? Yet he was still throwing upper 90’s at times this year, the year after the abuse, and was working less innings. But his walks were up and his K’s way down from last year. And the year before the 100 innings, he pitched 44 innings and his ERA 6.05. (compared to 3.52 in the 100 inning year) You would think he would have been better with less innings but he wasn’t. Same as Viz, he’s always pitched a lot of innings and his ERA is lower than his career average. He is what he is, an innings eater. Same as Proctor. Not the guys I want setting up Mo.
how many yankee pitchers have ended up with tommy john surgery? how many of these relievers are just plain crappy pitchers. Yes, torre isnt the best, but he works with crap and gets the job done. The yankees havent had anyone good coming out of the pen since mariano, tom gordon and maybe a couple more. Torre didnt make farnsworth useless, torre didnt make proctor suck and torre didnt make sturtz be so crappy. The fact that we win division with the bullpens that we have is a better indicator of torre than anything else.
Funny, nobody ever complained about Torre killing a bullpen when he was running Stanton and Nelson out there, both of whom had very long careers(and one is even still playing). But when guys who aren’t very good to begin with have a good year, and Torre rides the hot hand (as he should) and they eventually revert to the old form, then it means he killed them. I’m sorry I’ll gladly debate Torre killing a reliever with anybody. Granted there are situations where he runs a guy out too often, but tell me a guy whose career was cut short because of Torre’s tactics and I’ll concede.
Torre’s weakness is the bullpen, there’s no doubt about it. But I think every manager has at least one weakness. They’re just not glaring to us because we dont watch those teams day in and day out. I wouldnt mind if Joe comes back next year, but I wouldnt complain if he didnt. I really dont think it’s a clear cut decision (whether they make the playoffs or not).
There’s no question Joe Torre can blow out a bullpen like no one else.
However,the notion that he’s not an otherwise good manager of the game is totally unfounded.
The Yankees have 35 sacrifice hits, 4th in the American League and only 1 away from being ranked 2nd. The Yankees have 9 more sacrifice hits than the Angels, a team that everyone says excells at “National League” ball.In stolen bases the Ynkees rank 4th in the American League and 7th in all of the major leagues.
Compare those stats to Terry Francona, who manages a team that ranks 10th in the AL in sacrifice hits and a distant 8th in stolen bases (18th in the majors).
IMO Joe Torre manages every facet of the game as well as anyone else, with the exception being his bullpen.
This just in . . . (unless you already knew)
A-Rod is going in for an MRI on his ankle according to the FAN
I never knew being fat made you able to throw hard. I guess David Wells hits 100 all the time, right?
lol Go NYR
Although he said he wsa ready to play tonight, Alex Rodriguez was sent for an MRI on the right ankle he injured Tuesday.
A-Rod still could be in tonight’s lineup, but that’s not a given. “I don’t understand. You’ve got to talk to Dr. (Stuart) Hershon,” A-Rod said. “I thought I was ready to roll, but I’ve got to go downtown.” Sep. 5 - 4:03 pm et
Using one of your main set up guys in an 11-1 game is ridiculous.
Where is Guidry during this?
Oh great. I didn’t hear that. The news just keeps getting better and better. We need to drill Betre for falling on him.
His ankle must really be bothering him.
why is the number of sacrifice hits any indication of a manager’s ability? for starters, it’s not every manager’s style, and it doesn’t necessarily mean one is a good or bad manager. but more importantly, i can remember many a game where torre had guys like jeter and abreu bunt and half of all yankee fans watching the game were screaming at the television, “WHY????”
just because the sacrifice is successful does not mean it results in a run, and it certainly doesn’t mean that it was the correct strategy to begin with.
as to torre’s overuse of bullpen arms, regardless of whether he’s blown out pitchers’ arms or not, there’s no question of the fact that torre will take his supposed “close and late” guy and throw him out there (like last night) in an 11-1 ballgame. there are numerous examples of this from this year alone.
Why doesn’t Cashman have Vizzy Rules in place?
Joe Torre’s bungling of the bullpen is the main reason he should not be brought back next year, no matter what. Do we need to go through the names of the pitcher’s careers he’s destroyed again? Quantrill, Gordon, Proctor, and now Vizcaino. Thank god Cashman gave him strict instructions with Joba, or else Torre would have him out there every game like Viz. It HAS to stop.
It is better to be safe than sorry. Let him get it checked and give everyone piece of mind.
Our very own example of Sciurus carolinensis (Eastern Gray Squirrel) seems to handle the job of ’scooting’ up and down the foul pole well enough. One thing I ‘ve noted, though; he’s out of uniform. Scooter isn’t in pinstripes, he’s wearing road grays! I dare say the MLB Uniform Police will be along shortly.
Behaps we should take up a collection of twigs (shattered bat remnants, perhaps?) so he can start building a drey, ready for winter.
Torre has really ruined that Mariano Rivera right?
He ruined who?
Sturtze, Quantrill and Proctor?
3 guys who will never be in a conversation about solid relievers. 3 guys who were lucky to pitch in the big leagues
And Quantrill lead the league in appearances before he was even here.
Torre really ruined Mo, Stanton, Nelson, Mendoza, etc.
Gordon had major surgery before he was ever in pinstripes.
It’s not like these guys were 25 years old here.
When he blows out Britton and Ohlendorf next yr you may have a case
BTW, sacrifice bunting has been shown statistically time and time again to be INFERIOR to letting people hit away, with the exception of the pitcher batting…
Outs are precious - they shouldn’t be wasted….
Green tea,
Stealing bases, sacrifice hits and hit & run plays are just about the only strategizing that goes on in American League games. I think the fact that Bernie Williams could no longer run and never could bunt are the reasons he became obsolete.
“If Viz. is pitching badly now because of overuse, what was his excuse for the first two months of the season? ”
umm, overuse?
Yeah, Torre should be killed because the middle men he’s had to use are such Hall of Famers like Sturtzy and Proctor and Quantrill.
Are you people serious?
Who cares if he burns out journeymen middle relievers?
AROD on way to get MRI on his ankle!!!!!
There is nothing I hate worse than seeing than a man squaring around to bunt.
You do not throw outs away.
You only get 27.
Steal a base. Hit and run. Hit a fly ball. You don’t waste outs.
Let’s say the Yankees have Cano on second and Melky on first… having Damon bunt wouldn’t be the correct play??
“Torre has really ruined that Mariano Rivera right?
He ruined who?
Sturtze, Quantrill and Proctor?
3 guys who will never be in a conversation about solid relievers. 3 guys who were lucky to pitch in the big leagues
And Quantrill lead the league in appearances before he was even here.
Torre really ruined Mo, Stanton, Nelson, Mendoza, etc.”
I don’t think it’s necessary for Joe to ruin EVERY relief pitcher that pitches for him to show that he DOES ruin them, by and large. The guys you mention above, while not great, were solid, effective relief guys who because of Joe’s overuse had their careers (or will have their careers) shortened and never see how good (and tenured) their careers COULD have been.
“However,the notion that he’s not an otherwise good manager of the game is totally unfounded.
The Yankees have 35 sacrifice hits, 4th in the American League and only 1 away from being ranked 2nd. The Yankees have 9 more sacrifice hits than the Angels, a team that everyone says excells at “National Leagueâ€? ball.In stolen bases the Ynkees rank 4th in the American League and 7th in all of the major leagues.”
wow.
Tony, you just don’t get it….
Torre’s overuse of Quantril, Gordon, Sturtze, Proctor, etc has a direct impact on their ability to pitch later in the season.
Look at Quantrill’s and Gordon’s #s from the 1st half and 2nd half of 2004 - and remember back to how gassed Gordon was in the ACLS, when clueless Joe puts him in the 9th inning of a 19-8 game and then uses him on consecutive nights thereafter.
Look at Proctor and Sturtze’s splits from 2005.
Just look at the data before making silly comments
Bob Sheppard = hero.
Truest Yankee if there ever was one.
“sacrifice bunting has been shown statistically time and time again to be INFERIOR to letting people hit away, with the exception of the pitcher batting…”
Statistically, bunting will result in fewer runs over the long haul. That is not the same as being an inferior strategy. Bunting does increase the probability of scoring a single run in the inning. Depending on the game situation this sometimes makes bunting the better option.
i hate the letter V
Late report ……
The entire city of Boston is on a manhunt trying to find anybody still alive that remembers the 1918 World Series. So far no luck.
Gordon threw 90 and 81 innings in 2004 and 2005 - the most he’d thrown since 1998! For a guy with a history of arm troubles who had made it back to become an effective reliever, that excessive workload impacted him both at the end of seasons in the playoffs as well as afterwards - when, now pitching for the Phillies, he’s had shoulder issues. It just isn’t right….
“Sturtze, Quantrill and Proctor?
3 guys who will never be in a conversation about solid relievers. 3 guys who were lucky to pitch in the big leagues”
you might want to go back and research Quantrill’s career a bit. i’m not saying Torre did or did not kill Quantrill, but he doesn’t belong in the same conversation with those other 2.
Quantrill was very good for a pretty long time.
BREAKING NEWS:
AROD has been taken downtown minutes ago for an MRI.
Parker September 5th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
Yeah, Torre should be killed because the middle men he’s had to use are such Hall of Famers like Sturtzy and Proctor and Quantrill.
Are you people serious?
Who cares if he burns out journeymen middle relievers?
My guess would be the journeyman middle relievers care
miller
repost!!!!
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3006162
from ESPN.com
Totally agree this case was totally defensible.
Middle relievers who stray out of their career norms, while not exactly a dime a dozen, you can probably get a few with 5 cents.
The best thing would be to trade them while they’re over-valued for truly valuable commodities (remember Jay Witasick?)
If not, then the manager should ride them while their arms fall off. Inevitably, they regress back to their career norms anyway.
If a middle reliever truly would be good year in and year out, he would be made a closer somewhere down the line (e.g. Saito over in LA, and this Rivera guy you might’ve heard about)
I do believe Torre abuses the bullpen, and am very glad for the Joba Rules…however, a lot of his rationale for overuse (young arms aside) is very understandable.
Sportsfans by nature just like to armchair manage and complain, and Torre’s bullpen management too often unfairly becomes the target for armchair management.
“Look at Quantrill’s and Gordon’s #s from the 1st half and 2nd half of 2004 – and remember back to how gassed Gordon was in the ACLS, when clueless Joe puts him in the 9th inning of a 19-8 game and then uses him on consecutive nights thereafter.”
i don’t see how anyone who can defend Torre’s use of Gordon in game 3 of the 2004 ALCS.
that to me was the worst example of his bullpen mismanagement. it had to be one of the stupidest moves of in yankee history.
can i say for sure that Gordon doesn’t a run in game 5 if he didn’t pitch the previous 2 games instead of just the 1? no. i don’t know.
but i can argue that there was absolutely no reason for him to pitch with an 11 run lead in game 3. none.
Relax… MRI pre-cautionary. A-Rod could DH tonight, Betemit playing 3rd… Right now his bat is more important than a game without him at 3rd…
As you have pointed out Pete pitchers hate ‘dry humps’. He was warming up when the score was 4-1. Once up and ready (having thrown more pitches warming up than he would in an inning) you might as well use him, and in essense get some value from those pitches thrown warming up.
He knows Joba is available tonight as well so Viz can have the night off.
Missing the point entirely, which is “why was he warming in the first place?!?”
How do you pronounce “Wladimir”? My tongue gets twisted.
Wow, A-Rod please be okay! We can’t have you hurt!
He was warming because the score was 4-1 and Wang had a couple guys on base.
I’m not challenging anyone on Torre as a bad bullpen manager, but just out of curiosity, who’s a good current manager of bullpens?
It’s time for Giambi & Jeter to start driving in some runs. Derek was stuck on 59 rbi’s for over a week.
With all the guys we have banged up it’s a good thing the Yanks have a day off tomorrow.
Carmine, earlier this year a study was done and apparently Minnesota has the best run bullpen.
what’s interesting here is that pete chose the wrong situation to bring torre’s bullpen mismanagement to light. but there are PLENTY of other examples to point to (although pete rarely does). this is not surprising given his tendencies to defend even joe’s most horrendous moves. but now the damage is done, and not surprisingly the torre defenders are out in droves as this blog teeters on the brink of requiring registration.
footnote: as i write this, mike and the maddog are both talking about how viz will be shut down for the weekend and torre abuses his bullpen.
Vizcaino rested throughout the weekend sore shoulder… Way to go JOE!!!!!
This just in…..Vizcaino shut down for the weekend with shoulder soreness.
Yup, makes real sense having him pitch in a blowout game.
Some of you still feel like defending his bullpen management?
The guy is a disaster with bullpens. Anyone arguing otherwise simply know nothing about the game.
Carmine,
Jim Leyland is a firm believer in spreading out the innings among his relievers. Of course that didn’t prevent Joel Zumaya from getting injured.
I think a curse should be placed on Tony LaRussa for over-managing his bullpen and starting this ridiculous trend of specialists.
please let this be the last season of torre
anyone see a lineup posted anywhere? I have to leave for the game.
Thank God the Joba Rules exist…
If only we could have similar for the rest of the ‘pen!
Jim Leyland handles a bullpen better than anybody in baseball.
Look what he did in the Yankees series in Detroit after Jurrigins got hurt. He was masterful in getting through that game.
He also has less weapons in his bullpen. Todd Jones is his closer!
Honestly, people defending Torre’s bullpen management don’t have a leg to stand on.
How’s the bullpen look now with Vizcaino out? Does it really make sense to keep pitching your “A” List guys in blowout games? He did it on Saturday and he did it yesterday. Now, the guy is shutdown for the week.
Unbelievable.
Bullpen management is something you only really notice when it is done badly. Torre does it very badly.
Torre is extraordinarily overrated as a manager. After a mediocre career with Atlanta and St. Louis, he became the luckiest manager ever by landing on a tremendously talentled team poised for a World Series run. In particular, he was blessed with really great pitching staffs that he had nothing to do with.
You can’t defend Torre by pointing to Rivera’s continued effectiveness because Rivera has been a closer for almost his entire Yankee career. His appearances and innings are tied to save situations. Torre would never use Rivera in an 11-1 game unless he needed the work. But he would use one of his better setup guys, be it Quantrill, Gordon, Proctor, or Vizcaino. If anything, Torre is guilty of underusing Rivera by holding him back in bottom of the ninth, tie games on the road.
I don’t have a big problem with the idea of Torre “using up” a reliever and then the team trading that reliever before he crashes to earth. But that’s much easier said than done. More often, Torre plays favorites with relievers who don’t deserve it (see Sturtze in 2004-05, who Torre went to time after time even though he was never any good), ignores guys who are effective because he’s too busy playing favorites (see Villone in the first half of 2006), or overuses his favorites until they’re cooked and get outs anymore (see Villone in the second half of 2006).
Proctor is really the exception to the norm here - Torre rode him hard and we were still able to trade him for value. But more frequently, come playoff time, our best relievers are spent.
On a related note, is this the first post on this site devoted specifically to questioning a Torre move? If so, congratulations Pete - I never thought I’d see the day.
well, the same can be said about people who say “get your head out of the stat book and watch the game.” It is my opinion that people who state that don’t have a leg to stand on.
Granted Viz should not have pitched last night in a blow out but who does Joe have to turn too in most games?
Villone is gone
Proctor is gone
Henn was demoted becasue he gets shelled
Farnsworth can’t pitch back to back days
Joba - has rules
Britton is not the stud everyone thinks he is
Bruney can’t throw strikes
Edwar is either good or bad
So who does that leave? Fact is the bullpen has been mis-managed for the past three seasons, not always by Torre. They Yankees get two or three guys that can eat innings and then a supporting cast that need stars aligned, full moon, wind blowing from left to right, and other items to be aligned just to throw strikes on a consistent basis.
The one weakness of Torre is NOT his misuse of the bull pen but his lack of TRUST with the bull pen. In his mind, the bull pen comes in and shuts down every team, every hitter they face. This is not a reality. Sometimes the best medicine for pitcher is to struggle so they figure out what they are doing wrong. Bringing in a pitcher for one batter that gets a hit or walks does not help a pitcher who might be struggling.
proven veteran,
very tough argument to make about torre. i used to say it about phil jackson because i hated the bulls so much. jackson got lucky by getting to coach jordan and then again with kobe and shaq anyone could win with them whats so great about a triangle offense etc. i don’t think its a valid argument, rather something to grind an axe on. a dynasty is a dynasty. its even harder to win that many in baseball than basketball. saying someone is overrated is a straw man argument, because you get to assume how people rate him. fact of the matter is we have a very convenient way of rating managers in their record. joe’s record speaks for itself. (this is likely why no one will consult you or i when making the decision on torre this off season).
Gotta love it when a plan comes together….OAK leading LAA…they win that game ( OAK )….CLE beats MIN…TOR beats BOS….and NYY HAMMERS SEA…..story at 11 !!!
Check that CLE already beat MIN….Sah-weet !
all of this torre hate reminds me of what people were saying last year about Arod. Now nobody claims that he isnt “clutch” or a (dare I say it) “a true yankee”
Honestly, I dont want to go back to the days of dallas green, bucky dent and stump merril. Once he is gone, we will see how valuable he was to the team
IMO!
viva squirrels
LOL @ Brett Myers. Couldn’t happen to a nicer guy.
This just in on WFAN…Visciano out with a “sore” shoulder.
WOnder why????
they aren’t sure when he will return!
“Fact is the bullpen has been mis-managed for the past three seasons, not always by Torre. They Yankees get two or three guys that can eat innings and then a supporting cast that need stars aligned, full moon, wind blowing from left to right, and other items to be aligned just to throw strikes on a consistent basis.”
how many teams have much more than this in their bullpen?
my guess is that almost every bullpen in the league has a closer, maybe 1-2 above average setup men, maybe a matchup lefty and a bunch of stiffs.
the key is to know when to use the stiffs so your good pitchers are ready to go in close games. Torre has absolutely no ability to do this.
think about this: when you watch other teams, do you EVER see an opposing manager make as many pitching changes as Joe Torre? not even close. joe will use 4 pitchers to get 6 outs with a 5 run lead. over the long haul, it KILLS his bullpen.
Don Vito–Damn, you need to set up a fortune telling booth!
That pop you heard was Torre’s head exploding after he realized that neither Proctor nor Vizcaino is available to him anymore.
Anyone worried that we might have another let down for the series against k.c, seeing that they are bringing out 3 pitchers with e.r.a.’s below 4? I know we could bash any pitching staff but lately we have been off and on. We have to take care of business today to give us more of a cushion in the standings.
Wow, the Mets got killed!
We are gonna smack “KC” around so hard that the “C” will fall off the back of their name and the rest of the year, they will only be referred to as “K”…..similar to: we will beat them down so low, they will have to reach UP to touch bottom !
“Once he is gone, we will see how valuable he was to the team”
agreed 100%
the fact remains that the yankee bullpen has an above average ERA. That one of the reasons why they have been used so much over the past couple of years is because of names like Randy Johnson, Kevin Bronw, Carl Pavano, and the rest of those mediorce pitchers that started games for us. If its not the bullpen, its the starting pitching.
“Anyone worried that we might have another let down for the series against k.c, seeing that they are bringing out 3 pitchers with e.r.a.’s below 4?”
if they’re ERAs were over 6 and each had less than 4 career starts, then i’d be worried.
No Matsui and No Abreu tonight???
I wonder why. I could see resting Matsui because of the knee but why Abreu??
KC lost their 1B man Ross Gload with a bad knee heading into the Yanks series.
Damon LF
Cabrera CF
Jeter SS
A-Rod 3B
Posada DH
Duncan RF
Cano 2B
Betemit 1B
Molina C
DUNCANS DUE FOR SOME MORE HAND SMASHING.
Why do you assume if they change manager’s its back to Stump Merrill?
You can’t actually believe Joe Torre is the only guy who can manage this team, do you?
There are plenty of quality candidates who can manage the Yankees. I dare say, several would handle the young pitching and the bullpen much better than the current manager.
Geez, the GM has had to trade one guy and put in rules for another, just to gain some stability in how the ‘pen is run.
No bullpen has 7 great arms in it. However, as hmmm says, the key is to know how to use what you have and (this is where Torre really struggles) WHEN to use them.
Other managers seem to find a way to finish blowout games without using their top relief pitchers. Torre can’t do it. He can’t and all you have to do is watch the games to see it.
There is no excuse to use Vizcaino last night.
How many times were some of us wondering in this blog why Proctor or Vizcaino were in games when they were up 6+ runs in the late innings?
I think it was hmmm who put up a stat in the blog earlier in the year showing how many times Proctor and Vizcaino were used in blowout games.
Now, they don’t have an important pitcher for a week in September. Not exactly what you want to see when you are fighting to make the playoffs.
“Its his blind spot as a manager. Its been that way throughout his career. He overworked guys and Atlanta and St. Louis as well.”
SJ, this is the understatement of the century. Bringing in a guy who hadn’t pitched in weeks into a playoff game in extra innings is a heck of a lot more than a ‘blind spot’ its managerial malpractice. Torre is more than ‘below average’. Its almost as if he possesses no ability to manage a bullpen at all.
You may be worried about getting into the playoffs. I’m not. I am much more worried about how we will stay in them to deliver a championship. As successful as Torre has been, one wonders if he might have won even more rings with better in game managerial skills.
Missing the playoffs wouldn’t sting nearly as much as watching another Weaver like late inning playoff substitution. Something Torre is quite capable of doing.
BJ
“if they’re ERAs were over 6 and each had less than 4 career starts, then i’d be worried.”
Good point.
Looks like Torre’s going with a righties-R-us line up…
migames, bad starts are inevitable for every team. The problem is when Torre burns the whole pen rather than stretch out fewer relievers for more innings, or uses better guys when we’re getting blown out (although in fairness, my gut feeling is that he doesn’t do this so much when we’re losing in a blowout, compared to when we’re winning).
And I have to nitpick your examples. Kevin Brown is the only one who makes sense. Randy Johnson pitched 430 innings for us in two seasons. Pavano did not tax the pen because he did not pitch.
“There is no excuse to use Vizcaino last night.”
How about warming up Chamberlain? I haven’t read the in game thread to see what other people thought of that. It is criminal mischief that he was even toying with the idea of using Joba there. I don’t buy that Joba was just tossing for no reason. Torre actually contemplated using the kid in that blowout situation!
BJ
Hopefully Betemit will keep swinging a hot bat like last night.
Heard lineup, Pending A-Rod. Posada would DH, Molina C. Betemit @ 1b and Shelley Duncan in RF. Damon in LF.
Damon-Melky-Jeter-Alex-Posada-Duncan-Cano-Betemit and Molina (I think)…all dependent on A-Rod playing or not.
They already said Joba was just getting a bit of work in…there was no intention of bringing him into the game.
Oakland’s up 5-2 on LAA.
Wow. As close as we can come to a must win game, and we throw the house money lineup out there. Are there matchup issues with Abreu, Giambi and Matsui? I know Washburn is a lefty, but he isn’t dominating.
See SOS posted lineup already; as for other questions…tomorrow is an off day. Giving Abreu and Matsui off (against lefty Washburn) is basically giving them 2 days off. One reason Posada Dh-ing.
Well, my scars of bucky dent and stump merril still hurt, its like they stole my childhood. I just hope, whoever comes can duplicate what torre has done. In all aspects of the game. i think we need to realize that what torre has in that bullpen is pure crap and that we reached a september race and one of our “important pitcher” is named Vizcaino, we should be happier than we are. Because Vizcaino was mediorcre in the NL west
Torre sees the handwriting on the wall. He knows he will be gone after this season. When they give you players and tell you how to use them (Joba rules) they obviously don’t have confidence in your ability as the manager.
Lefties are hitting .222 vs Washburn. Righties are hitting .295
Could it be that Joe Torre might be a little smarter than some of the folks who want his head?
“I can understand Torre not wanting to use Chris Britton or Edwar Ramirez in a fairly close game.”
Wait, what Pete? Why should Torre be reluctant to use Britton who has done nothing but excel?
Anyone remember any playoff team advancing deep into October without a left-hander in the bullpen?
Vizcaino was at least “tough on lefties”, according to Torre. Now, without The Viz, I see Torre’s bullpen trust in this order:
Joba - Farnsworth - Ramirez - Bruney - Britton
Not quite good enough, is it?
tonyb,
Abreu & Cano are a combined 3 for 22 against JW.
I live in So Cal and Im tired of watching angel vs. yankee games, where they have to mention (EVERYGAME) how the angels have owned the yanks in the Torre era. Its time to face our fears and eliminate them from the playoffs. Stop hoping that we face Clevland. Why not make it sweeter by ousting those pesky angels and take out those bums in boston after.
I wouldnt want it anyother way.
Oh yeah… and 15 of the 18 home runs Washburn has allowed have been hit by right handed hitters.
6-2 Oakland, two on, one out for the A’s.
Joba can get righties and lefties out. And I think if the Yanks make the playoffs the Joba rules will go out the window.
Its not real hard to read Washburn’s numbers and decide to stack the lineup with righties.
I don’t think that takes any managerial expertise.
Running a bullpen? That takes more than reading a stat sheet. That’s the failing he has that could doom this team more than any lineup he could ever put out there.
So will Betemit start at third tonight if A-Rod is out of commission?
Most likely, CD…
How about playing Minky at third?
What is the latest on AROD? I hear he is in the lineup, but also had an MRI. Whats the story pete?
This just in …..
Carl Pavano is still standing in front of construction trailer # 5 at the new Stadium site waiting for his teammates to do the team photo shoot.
Torre what are we going to do with you…Make Viz pitch in a 11-1 game after everyone knew that he had a sore arm. He couldnt find the plate and wound up throwing 22 pitches. Viz should of opened his mouth, that would of been the smart thing to do. Also Wang pitching after they scored 7 runs, and a 40 minute delay gets a stiff back. Is Guidry just as clueless as he is? Wouldnt he have something to say about these moves… Just like Pettitte pitching against Tampa the other day. He barely got out of the 6th inning so he pitches him in the 7th and he gives up the 3 run homer. If Clueless is going to be here next year maybe they need a more experienced pitching coach then Guidry is to change Torres mind when he makes these idiotic moves.
I don’t think Pavano ever really liked the Yanks to begin with. I remember reading somewhere that he scolded his mother (who is reportedly a big Yankees fan) for wearing a Yankee cap at some public event that the two of them were attending. That tells you all you need to know about that guy!
So, do we get a game thread?
Options if Arod is out tonight:
1. DH Arod and sit Posada
2. Giambi to 1B, Betemit to 3rd
3. Betemit at 1B, Gonzalez to 3rd
4. Troy Glaus picked up off waivers, plays 3B
My guess is #2
Yeah, where are the lineups?
Rebecca - It’s another night of overt optimism, right?!
Does anyone know when the lineups HAVE to be in by? (as in what’s the rule)
mel - I don’t know the rule, but it’s obvious the Yanks are waiting until the last second because of A-Rod’s uncertain situation.
Lineups are on Gameday. A-rod in.
jeez Pete, i usually know it’s time to leave work when you post the line-ups at around 5 PM. Now I’m here an extra hour and have nothing to show for it since I’m salary :/
captainscorner,
I agree that Guidry should also be to blame. But there is one more guy we should be blaming is Mattingly. Isnt he the bench coach? What exactly is a bench coaches job? I was under the immpression that they are the managers advisors during games. I never see Mattingly in Torre’s ear.When Girardi was bench coach he seemed to always be giving Torre advise.
Maybe that answers the question of who should be our next manager.
Chi Dave–Oh, you know it! It worked last night it’s working again tonight!
Must have been good news on that MRI!!!
A-rod was pissed about getting the MRI. It’s retarded to have him in today’s game even if MRI comes back negative. He limped into the clubhouse today.
Carl Pavano….now that is a guy I would take a wide stance next to in a random aiport restroom….
They also announced Wang will pitch on Sunday as they will skip Clemens spot in the rotation, according to nj.com.
A-Rod should just DH if at all….
Phil,
Thanks. Hope it’s true. Great news and kills 2 birds with one stone.
mel - Agreed. A-Rod should not be playing tonight, regardless of the results of the MRI.
“They also announced Wang will pitch on Sunday as they will skip Clemens spot in the rotation, according to nj.com.”
I hope this means that we wont be seeing Mussina starting anytime soon.
Well, if this is the game thread, then I’ll go on record:
We’re all optimism tonight! It worked last night, it’s working again tonight!
S.o.S.27 - I think Mussina is now officially our long relief man!
Rebecca,
Not game thread, Pep Rally!
mel: Works for me!
Let’s go Yankees!
The D train
September 5th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
This just in …..
Carl Pavano is still standing in front of construction trailer # 5 at the new Stadium site waiting for his teammates to do the team photo shoot.
UPDATE… Pavano is now being hauled to the hospital with an injury. Apparently, while waiting he decided to sit down on the steps leading to the foreman’s trailer. Without knowning it was wood, his buttocks was punctured by a splinter which caused him to leap up, injuring his rib cage. Upon landing, he hit his head on a nail gun causing his arm to get a “grabbing” feeling in the elbow. Fortunately, no one else was hurt in the incident but he did receive applause from the construction workers who thought the were seeing the latest OASHA saftey tape. God Bless the Rajah… still giving back to the community.
I’ll be sitting on the pole look for me
I want to see the squirrel go after Brad and Angelina again! HA!!!
Pepper Brooks - very funny.
Guys, I’m picturing Peter in the depths of yankee stadium digging up an amazing story for us…or he fell asleep from such a long season on the space bar and has lineups consisting of 24 pages of spaces.
wang wont pitch till tuesday….moose is starting sunday
I want to see the squirrel go after Beltre!
ESPN just said:
Arod had MRI, no results announced yet, but IS in the line up.
Mike: That’s not what the Star-Ledger is reporting. What is your source?
A-Rod figures that if Karstens can pitch on a broken leg, he can sure play on a broken ankle!!
Rather than having Moose pitch sunday,I say use our 40 man roster to the fullest. Each bullpen guy goes an inning. Yes at the least 9 relievers. I would bet they would allow less runs than Moose would allow in his 3 innings 6+ runs.
According to the NJ paper blog, Wang is pitching Sunday.
Haha, thanks for spreading the name Motown
“Do we need to go through the names of the pitcher’s careers he’s destroyed again? Quantrill, Gordon, Proctor, and now Vizcaino.”
An effective argument can be made that Quantrill was burned before he arrived in Toronto and LA, Gordon is just getting old for a power oriented reliever, and Proctor and Vizcaino’s careers aren’t over. Try again.