Wang too strong but plenty effective
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- September
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Chien-Ming Wang explained that his sinker was moving too much today, making it hard to control. He can usually throw it to a spot. Today he had to aim for the middle of the plate and let the pitch get to the corners on its own.
“That happens in day games sometimes because he’s too strong,” Ron Guidry said. “His stuff is too good.”
Still, Wang went seven good innings. He is 5-0 with a 2.04 ERA in his last five starts.
Wang and Boston’s Josh Beckett became the first pitchers to 18 wins. They will face each other on Saturday at Fenway Park.
Wang and Beckett are two of the top candidates for the Cy Young Award along with Cleveland’s C.C. Sabathia and Kelvim Escobar of Los Angeles. Wang smiled when I asked whether he cared about the Cy Young or winning 20 games.
“I just want to pitch in the playoffs again,â€? he said. “That is my only goal.â€?
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
My fantasy: Wang beams Beckett with a 95 mph sinker.
That comment is reminiscent of Alex’s from last night in response to whether or not the MVP was his goal and his reply was that he’ll settle for a world championship. They have all drank the Jeter Kool Aid. Excellent!
Jeter Kool Aid indeed!
I don’t know how Wang went seven, but it’s totally awesome that he did.
Why didn’t he have this problem last year?
See? Wang is more concerned with team goals than individual goals. Motown, you’re absolutely right about the Jeter Kool-Aid. Alex is coming into the fold and has a higher profile this year, but Jeter’s the one keeping them on the same page.
That’s what I love about this team. Not one person complains about how many times they’ve been hit by pitches. Not one person complained about how they didn’t win the MVP. Not one person yaps like a chihuahua about how they’re going to make a team pay for a hard slide. They’re such professionals. Lots of talented guys around the league and the division, but I love our guys for their class and professionalism.
In all seriousness, Wang isn’t going to win the Cy Young, but that Wang-Beckett game will be one to watch.
I don’t know why at this point I let ESPN’s Sox bias bother me but today they mentioned twice that Beckett was the first to 18 without mentioning Wang.
It’s like they have already decided in their editorial meetings that Beckett is getting the Cy Young. I call BS!
Just thought I’d let you all know that I went home to NY this weekend for my birthday, and my sister got me a Yankees shirt.. Which one you ask?
#62 Chamberlain – with “Joba Rules” on the front
Needless to say, I can’t wait to wear it to the next game I go to (Saturday Sept. 22)
“In all seriousness, Wang isn’t going to win the Cy Young,”
Why not? If he wins the game in Boston and 1 or both of his starts after, he’ll lead the majors in wins and have 20 or 21 wins.
Now, I realize that people may have lost sight of this little known fact, but Cy Young doesn’t hold the career marks for ERA, strikeouts, or any of those individual things that don’t make any difference in teams getting to the playoffs. Cy Young holds the career record for wins. 511.
Until they rename the award, the pitcher to get the most wins should be the overwelming favorite to win the Cy Young.
Dave K,
I like it! Is it an official Yankee shirt (trademarked)?
yanksrule – well I guess Beckett was the first to 18, by about an hour. That’s so bogus. ESPN is useless, althought I read somewhere that they did mention Wang today in the Cy Young contention. I hope Sabathia wins it, honestly, because I just don’t think they will give it to Wang because of the low strike out rates. Although, what if he’s got 21 wins at the end of the season, and no one else has 20? I wonder if they will just fall in love with the number.
Mel – you bring up an interesting point about the no whining about the hard slides, etc. that the Yankees don’t do. I was so infuriated when Youkilis and Francona made all of those comments about Joba. It was almost as if they were trying to incite their fan base and whip them into an even greater Yankee-hating frenzy. I have to wonder if Joe is behind the no complaining rule.
I’ve heard they’re selling the Joba Rules shirt at Modells, but I haven’t found it online.
I want it really badly though!
The man has the right mindset. Straight to #27
Mel and Rebecca – Yea, I just asked, she got it from Modells – and Yes, Yankee Trademarked
Motown,
Of course Joe is behind it. They have a “loose lips sink ships” policy. Sheffield was right about all the spin that goes on with the Yankees. But it’s amazing that the guys adhere to it. I’ve seen Johnny and Krazy Kyle gripe and I cringe because these kinds of things should stay inhouse.
It’s also smart because no one’s going to feel sorry for the mighty Yankees. Complaining just makes them look like spoiled brats. Like the rich kid who didn’t have enough lunch money to buy sushi, so he had to settle for steak kind of thing.
and Giving Wang an extra days rest before pitching an afternoon game in Boston is a GREAT IDEA, right ? Mussina should NOT be starting on Wednesday, IMO, and Wang should pitch the Friday Night game in Boston…He would be on schedule AND pitching at night, let Clemens pitch on Saturday and Hughes on Sunday….Moose pitching is simply messing things up AND throwing a game away that is 99% assurrance of also taxing the bullpen…Silly, silly move…
You’re right Mel. I think Pedroia is a spoiled brat, mainly because of how much he complained about the hard slide from A-Rod. Again, with the inciting of the fan base. Irritating.
to back up what Al wrote earlier, this is the second year in a row that Wang has led (tied for the lead) the majors in wins, even though this year he was on the DL. He also went 9-2 last year in games after yankee losses and has similar results this year as well. He may not be a strikeout pitcher, but he does win a lot of games and has an ERA under 3 at home. I just think he deserves a lot more credit than he’s getting (outside of Yankeeland) and I just hope Beckett doesn’t win (hate the guy and his attitude). Also, love the Jeter Kool-Aid!
Anyone watching the Giants game? Ginormous play on the first drive.
Don Vito Bellamo
good call! I’m a bit worrry about Wang pitching on 5 days rest and in day game.
Joe should let him pitch friday night.
Is Wang’s throw day Wednesday? Maybe he can toss an inning in relief of Mussina if necessary in Toronto and then be properly tired enough on Saturday for the right amount of sink. (just kidding) (sort of).
Why don’t they just pitch him on 3 days so he can leave Beckett in the dust?
Wang DOESN’T do well on artificial surfaces…..the ERA balloons (just like the sinker after being pounded into the turf). Keeping him off the Rogers Center mound isn’t a bad idea.
Don Vito et al:
We don’t like it, but they’ve got pitch Mussina sometime…
Wang had his slider working today I thought.. But the sinkers always going to be his main pitch.
But Ill always take comments like ‘His stuff is too good’..
Can’t complain to much about that right? Hah
And I’ll take comfort in Guidry’s comment that this happens to Wang “sometimes.” So I’ll assume it won’t happen at Fenway.
Isn’t Wang W18-L2 after 5 days’ rest?
Kelvim Escobar totally just stole Clemens’ TOUGH ALL DAY.
Angels up. I think.
Wow. Indians really picking on Kid Weaver now.
Cleveland wins = me happy.
Rebecca…and the reason you HAVE to pitch Mussina is what ?…. He MUST be placed before the team, because why ?….
Don Vito–Because if Clemens is hurt real bad, and then you have only CMW, Pettitte and Hughes and Kennedy, it means you’re relying on two rookies to carry you through October, and while CMW and Pettitte are brilliant, neither can pitch on just one or two days’ rest, and while Hughes and Kennedy have shown a lot of potential, October baseball is a whole ‘nother ballgame…
I think the Cy Young voters love the kind of match-ups like Wang vs. Beckett. If Wang outduels him he’ll get a lot of votes that probably would have gone to Beckett. It’s the kind of game that will win or lose a Cy Young award.
Peter I don’t see how you can say that Wang is a contender for the Cy Young, he really shouldn’t be. 12 pitchers in the AL lead him in ERA and 18 pitchers lead him in WHIP. Wins isn’t everything, in fact wins is an almost worthless statistic. If Wang didn’t have the Yankees run support would he still be 18-6? I doubt it.
Skeeter, Yes, If Wang outduels Beckett, the Red Sox would be scared to death to see the Yankees in the playoff knowing Dice-K is fading away. LOL
Patrick,
You have a point, but wins are more valuable than ERA or strikeouts. Pitchers who put their team in a position to win on any given day on a regular basis are valuable.
Wang will always lose in an Cy Young argument because he relies on defense more than other pitchers (low ERA w/ low K total).
But that’s o.k. There’s Cy Young and there’s Cy Wang. Cy Wangs go to pitchers who have lots and lots of wins, low ERA, and low strikeout totals.
Patrick- Wins are NOT even close to worthless. You dont win 18 wins on accident. Jut because he gets run support doesnt make him worse than any other pitcher. Also, did you here Jim Kaat say that good pitchers pitch to the score of the game? If you have a big lead, (hence Wangs high run support)you are more apt to go straight after and challenge the hitters so you let up more runs.
Peter, I don’t see how any discussion of the Cy Young is complete without mentioning Johan Santana, Eric Bedard, and Dan Haren. They’ve been just as good as the guys you mentioned. Let’s not penalize them because they haven’t had any run support.
Tim Wakefield has more wins than Johan Santana.
That’s just about all that needs to be said about that statistic.
To put things in perspective, for Wang to get upset about the Cy Young would be like David Ortiz getting upset about the MVP award. Senseless. That’s just the way it is. Of course if Wang were to get 25 wins with a comfortable margin over the other pitchers, you’d see him win. Wang was close last year so it’s not out of the realm of possibility. Same thing if Ortiz hit 60+ homeruns.
Go NYR. I don’t think Patrick’s point is that the run support makes Wang a worse pitcher, just that it doesn’t make him better than one that doesn’t get run support. You can talk about pitching to the score, but there’s no way to pitch your team to more runs.
Johan Santana has let up 30+ homeruns. That automatically eliminates him.
Amol-Thats my point you idiot. I said the run support Wang gets makes him have worse stats because he pitches to the score. He throws no sliders and just gives you more innings by only throwing fastballs. Thats what good pitchers do.
Santana’s ERA is still lower than Beckett’s and Wang’s. (And Sabathia’s)
OK, that doesnt mean anything. ERA is not a great stat. Homeruns show me something. Like i said, Wang pitches to the score. When he has a big lead, he loosens up and gives the guys pitches to put in play.
“12 pitchers in the AL lead him in ERA and 18 pitchers lead him in WHIP.”
Based on your comments, someone might think that Cy Young was the career leader in ERA. Afterall, he is considered the greatest pitcher of all time. Cy Young holds the career record for Wins with 511. Not ERA (he is 56th on that list). Ed Walshi is the career ERA record holder, so your argument makes sense for the Ed Walsh award. Since we’re talking about the Cy Young, why don’t we pay attention to what it is that makes Cy Young considered the greatest pitcher of all time? Wins.
Amol, I agree completely with what you said. I’d say that Escobar, Sabathia, Haren and Santana should all have equal consideration to win the Cy Young. Only reason I leave Bedard off that list is because he is out for the rest of the season and he will only have 182 innings pitched. Wang and Beckett are on the fringe at best in my opinion.
Patrick:
In the fact, Wang’s ERA of his 18 wins is 2.2 (or something like that), he wins becoz he did not give up too many runs and he always go distance into the games while Yankees can give his run support and avoid bullpen broke his win if any.
CY YANG sounds plenty good to me.
I know this is a Yankee blog but the Giants D is a F*ckin joke!
Wang has allowed 8 homers this year. Johan has allowed 30 homers. Thats far too many. I dont care if they are solo
CY WANG THAT IS
Al, the reason i gave his ERA and WHIP rank was to give an idea of how far away he is from being the best pitcher in the league. Sure he leads the league in wins and obviously his ERA and WHIP are great but not Cy Young great. I didn’t research his other stats because I think his ERA and WHIP rank prove pretty easily that he isn’t the best pitcher in the league. If he were close in those stats I’d research more in depth but its really not necessary in this case.
Kj: Can’t possibly be as bad as the Jets D’ today…
TO is ridiculous
“He throws no sliders and just gives you more innings by only throwing fastballs. Thats what good pitchers do.”
i thought good pitchers prevented runs? who cares if they do that with fastballs or sliders.
and there are many pitchers who have done a better job at preventing runs than Wang this year.
the Cy Young is for the best pitcher in the league. Wang has NOT been the best pitcher in the league.
he’s probably in the top 10. which is awesome.
but there have been many who have been better.
and the person that said the Cy Young should go to the pitcher with most wins? yikes.
have fun guys.
So why isn’t Santana going to win the Cy Young this year even though his ERA is low and his K totals are second in the league (probably 1st w/ Bedard out)? Because he only has 15 WINS. Which has been our point.
mel, I’d pick Santana before Wang to win the Cy Young. However my top choice would probably be Sabathia at this point in the season.
Cleveland just won.
Think they split their series with LAA.
“Since we’re talking about the Cy Young, why don’t we pay attention to what it is that makes Cy Young considered the greatest pitcher of all time? Wins.”
this is really dumb.
is the Jackie Robinson award for the best player to break the color barrier each year?
i suppose the Roberto Clements award is for the best player to die in a plane crash.
Patrick,
By ERA and WHIP, CY YOUNG wasn’t the best pitcher in baseball history.
But the award is named after him.
Why is that?
ONE STATISTIC AND ONE ONLY.
WINS. 511 of them to be exact.
ERA and WHIP don’t get teams into the playoffs. Wins do.
Great pitchers win. It’s really that simple.
Al, is Tim Wakefield a better pitcher than Johan Santana?
??
Maybe you should bother to read the definitions of those awards and why they are named after the people they are.
The Cy Young award is for the best pitcher in each league. It is named after Cy Young because Cy Young is considered the best pitcher of all-time. Why is that? Because he won. Not because of his ERA, or his WHIP, or his K/bb ratio, or his strikeout totals. Cy Young is considered the best pitcher of all-time because he won 511 games.
Want to award a player for a low ERA? Sponsor an Ed Walsh award.
Patrick,
I respect your opinion, but if Wang finishes with 20 wins he will place higher than Santana in the Cy Young. In the voters’ eyes, Johan is having a down year. I’m sure that the voters look at the award as the pitcher’s version of the MVP. They may place some value on being on a contending team.
Patrick,
This year, yes.
yes, just like the Hank Aaron award goes to the best HITTER. not the hitter with the most HRs. oh wait, but that’s what Aaron is “known for”.
i’m sure everyone here was up in arms when Jeter won the Hank Aaron award last year despite hitting 14 HRs.
Then I’d have to say that you are a moron. Sorry pal but your logic is incredibly flawed and you are wrong.
What’s the priority to be considered for CY?
Wins > …. (ERA, WHIP…etc)
yes, if Wakefield gets the same win # as the
other 2 who lead with Wins.
from my point,
if only 1 leads with Wins, then he deserves to win the CY, if someone ties with him, then compare other factors. that’s all.
i would love to see this same discussion if Wang was 16-6 with a 2.25 ERA and Beckett was 18-6 with a 3.75 ERA.
i’m sure everyone here would feel exactly the same way.
seriously, 1975 called, it wants its baseball analysis back.
“if only 1 leads with Wins, then he deserves to win the CY, if someone ties with him, then compare other factors. that’s all.”
says who, you?
Well, Patrick,
Why don’t you lead a campaign to get the award renamed the Ed Walsh?
??,
Aaron isn’t considered the greatest hitter to ever play the game (I’d argue for a guy named Ted Williams, but there are plenty of other possible candidates). But the award that bears his name says it is to be awarded to the best hitter. Nice tribute, but doesn’t make Aaron the criteria.
Not quite comparable to the Cy Young, since Cy is considered the best pitcher to ever play the game and the award is for the best pitcher. So, under what criteria is Cy Young considered the best pitcher of all time? ERA? Nope. Strikeouts? Nope. WHIP? Nope. Oh, wait, the criteria which makes Cy Young the greatest pitcher of all time? Wins!
“Patrick,
This year, yes.”
wow.
Tim Wakefield has been better than Johan Santana.
i have officially heard everything.
hey, maybe you guys can talk about how the MVP should go to the guy with the most RBIs next.
or how great Juan Pierre is because he’s a career .300 hitter.
“Not quite comparable to the Cy Young, since Cy is considered the best pitcher to ever play the game and the award is for the best pitcher. ”
of course, Cy Young isn’t really considered to be the best pitcher to ever play the game, but you can keep saying it and maybe it will be true.
Something is wrong w/ Eli Manning’s shoulder. Back up QB is HUGE.
??
“i would love to see this same discussion if Wang was 16-6 with a 2.25 ERA and Beckett was 18-6 with a 3.75 ERA.”
I think the situation now is different from what you addressed, the thing is so far in this season both Wang and Beckett have same # of starts, and wins along with .4 difference on ERA.
the .4 era is reasonable to be caught up in 3-4 starts, of course Wang needs work hard on it.
to ??,
sure, from my viewpoint,
follow some rules(maybe there exists one formula?! ) may eliminate some bias or different and year-by-year argument.
??,
Nobody has a beef with you. Your boy Beckett’s going to win. We’re just saying that wins are not the only factor, just the most important. We all agree Beckett will win because he’ll have the most wins, have more strikeouts than Wang, is on a contending team, and he’s had a huge bounceback year. Relax, we may not like Beckett but we recognize that he’s had a great year.
Al you didn’t read my argument from a few posts up considering this “joe walsh” nonsense. I have nothing more to say to someone like you who doesn’t listen to logic. The Cy Young award is given to the best pitcher, not the pitcher with the most wins. I would argue against Cy Young being the best pitcher of all time (Walter Johnson anyone?), in fact I’d say he isn’t even top 5. Just like you said the Hank Aaron award isn’t given to the player with the most HR’s, the Cy Young award isn’t given to the player with the most wins either. Having the most wins does not make you the best pitcher plain and simple, no ifs ands or buts. If you think otherwise you are a fool.
you do realize that Cy Young pitched at a time when catching a ball on one hop was an out, right? and that the ball was basically a rock wrapped in leather?
i’m pretty sure anyone who knows anything about baseball would consider Walter Johnson or Roger Clemens a better pitcher than Cy Young.
i suppose you think David Wells was a better pitcher than Whitey Ford?
he has more WINS though!11!!!
Kenny Rogers is better than Pedro Martinez!!11!!! MORE WINS!!!!!
Also just to clarify I agree with ?? that Wang should not win the Cy Young but I also think that Beckett shouldn’t win either. Both guys are not even top five in the AL this year and neither should win.
“Nobody has a beef with you. Your boy Beckett’s going to win. ”
no, i HATE josh beckett. probably more than anyone else in baseball except for Youkilis.
but the argument that the Cy Young should go to the pitcher with the most wins is just dumb.
sorry.
“…considering this “joe walshâ€? nonsense…”
Ahh…The great Joe Walsh…Leader of the legendary James Gang before rescuing the Eagles… Didn’t expect to see his name come up on this board!
Haha yeah my mistake
Al-
I totally agree with you.
Cy Young winners – first decade
1956 – Newcombe – 27 wins (lead the majors) 3.06 ERA (Ford lead majors in ERA)
1957 – Spahn – 21 wins (lead the majors) 2.69 ERA (Wilhelm lead majors in ERA)
1958 – Turley – 21 wins (lead the AL) 2.97 ERA (Ford lead majors in ERA)
1959 – Wynn – 22 wins (lead the majors)3.17 ERA (Wilhelm lead majors in ERA)
1960 – Law – 22 wins (lead the majors) 3.08 ERA (Bauman lead majors in ERA)
1961 – Ford – 25 wins (lead the majors) 3.21 ERA (Donovan lead majors in ERA)
1962 – Drysdale – 25 wins (lead the majors) 2.83 ERA (Aguirre lead majors in ERA, Koufax lead NL)
1963 – Koufax – 25 wins (lead the majors) 1.88 ERA (lead the majors)
1964 – Chance – 20 wins (lead the AL) 1.65 ERA (lead the majors)
1965 – Koufax – 26 wins (lead the majors) 2.04 ERA (lead the majors)
How about we pay attention to the wins in the first decade that the award existed? Obviously, wins were pretty important to the people who created it. Every winner in the first decade lead the majors or their league in wins. Every one.
As for ERA?
It wasn’t until Koufax posted his 1.88 that it had an impact. Sandy Koufax changed how people looked at pitchers, but he also won a lot of ballgames. He lead the majors in wins in every season that he won the Cy Young. The Cy Young is primarily about wins. Was intended that way.
In related news, Kip Wells is 3 times more likely to win the cy young than Phil Hughes.
Cy Young also has the most losses, so I actually suggest the award goes to either Kip Wells or Jose Contreras this year.
Patrick – It’s OK…I’m sure Joe would appreciate the plug, regardless (that is, if he were a Yankee fan and he actually checked out this blog…which I know is not the case on both counts!). Joe is all about “nonsense” himself! A goofy guy to be sure…But a great guitarist, still!!
Patrick,
Take a logic class. You have to employ it for people to listen to it. So far, you haven’t.
FYR,
h ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cy_Young_Award
unfortunately, the formula is from their votes,
not from pitchers’ statistics.
what my point is : formula with pitchers’ REAL performance is very important even you think ERA should be considered as higher priority than Wins.
What’s “the BEST pitcher”? who knows? :-
Guys, you have to relax…We just completed a sweep and have a decent lead in the Wild Card, after all! NO WORRIES!!!
Seriously, who cares who gets the Cy Young? I’m sure Wang would rather have a Series ring than the Cy, anyway…
In Wang’s 18 wins he has given up 3 runs or less. Is that not Cy Young worthy? It’s getting pretty annoying to keep seeing that Wang has 18 wins because he gets plenty of run support. Yes Wang doesn’t have the lowest WHIP but he’s a ground ball pitcher and sometimes those grounders find holes. Wang is one of the best pitchers in baseball hands down and I’m sure 27 other teams would love to have him on their team.
??
How about you demonstrate that you actually know much of anything about baseball history?
Wow. The rules were different for Cy Young?
Were they not different for every other player of the era?
And Patrick,
At least learn the difference between Ed Walsh (a spitballer, played from 1904 – 1917, mostly for the White Sox, holds the career ERA record for major league baseball) and Joe Walsh (guitarist, best known for his time with The Eagles and the James Gang).
Al – Ahh, so you know Joe’s work as well, do you? Good stuff!!!
Here’s my question… How did Eric Gagne win the Cy in ‘03 with those !!!2!!! measly wins. I would totally have given it to Chin-hui Tsao (3)!!! Or even Kyle Farnsworth (3) or Luis Viscaino (4).
_Wang too strong_
Maybe he should using Decaf. That, or he can take off the day-game-edge by chasing it with ARod the night before.
Sure Al try to follow this. The award is not named the Cy Young award because he was the best pitcher of all time. Despite this, the award is given to the best pitcher in each league after every regular season.
Getting to the point, I’ll give you an example of why wins is not the stat that determines the best pitcher. Pitcher A and Pitcher B both pitch 7 innings, they both give up 5 hits and they both allow 2 runs in the 3rd inning. Pitcher A plays for the Yankees and they score 5 runs after 7 innings while Pitcher B plays for the Orioles who score 1 run after 7 innings. Pitcher A gets a win but Pitcher B does not. By your logic Pitcher A is a better pitcher. How can you back up that logic when both pitchers would have pitched identical games yet one gets a win and the other does not?
I will admit that wins is a useful stat in determining the Cy Young award because it gives you some sense of how a pitcher performs in close ballgames. However to blindly give the award to the pitcher with the best record is ridiculous.
Cleveland won!
that means they’re only a game behind the halos for the 2nd seed.
I’m making plans to go to the O.C. and attend games one and two of the playoffs (they’re only 400 miles away from me). But now it looks like we may end up playing the Indians in the first round.
*EMPIRE !!*
Al-
I miss the drunk Joe Walsh. He was so funny when he was wasted.
We shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that Wang’s K rate is up quite a bit from last year, and just maybe he is on track to develop into an even more dominant pitcher in the future… Last two years havent been bad though.
If Wang’s K rate was as high as other candidates this year, Wang’s wins could more easily outweigh his less amazing ERA.
Future five time Cy Young award winner?? I hope so!
Dave K, Mel & Rebecca, I MUST have a Joba Rules t-shirt!
No game tomorrow.
2 good matchups, though:
Kazmir @ Schilling and Halladay @ Rogers.
The @ changed the font. Trying that again:
Kazmir vs. Schilling
Halladay vs. Rogers
Interesting comments about Wang and Beckett. How can anyone argue against the fact that both Wang and Beckett are having excellent seasons and are both in strong contention for the Cy Young? It doesn’t matter how you feel about either one of them personally. If Red Sox fans were honest with themselves they would admit that they would love to see Wang pitching for the Sox. In the same vein if Yankee fans are honest with themselves they would admit that they would like to see Beckett pitching for the Yankees.
If Wang leads the league in wins at the end of the season, then he’ll obviously be in Cy Young contention. But that’s really only if he’s alone at the top.
Really, the Cy Young is awarded to the best pitcher. The best pitcher is the guy who most consistently gives his team a chance to win. ERA and WHIP are just stats you use to figure out if a pitcher gives his team a chance to win every time out. But really, what’s a better indicator of that than wins?
Sure, wins are also a matter of defense and batting, so it’s not a pure indication. But if Wang is alone with 20 or 21 wins, then he has to get some votes, because it’ll be obvious that he consistently gives his team the best chance to win.
First of all, as some pundits here noted Wang is ideally a 3rd starter. 3rd starters as we all know never can even get 2nd in Cy Youngs, even in an offensive era and an offensive league e.g. 2006 AL.
Not to mention, wins mean nothing and Wang’s wins must’ve strictly came from good run support. To wit, of his 18 wins, only in 17 of them did Wang put in a QS. Having 1 cheap win all year out of 28 starts (Jul 4th, 6.1 IP 4ER vs TB) proves a pitcher is a beneficiary of only good RS and “wins mean nothing.” That 1 cheap win clearly offsets all of Wang’s undeserving losses (e.g. 6IP, 1ER @TEX 4/6, 6.2IP, 3ER @OAK Jun 6).
Ray- I’d love to see somebody with Beckett’s talent pitching for the Yanks. But Beckett is too much of a punk for me to want him in pinstripes.
Same goes for Manny. I’d love to have another bat like that in New York, but I’d hate to see that guy get anywhere near our dugout.
“…Beckett is too much of a punk for me to want him in pinstripes.”
I bet you used to say the same thing about Damon. Idiot.
clear winner for me is C C Sabathia:
31 starts
24 QS
2 “cheap wins” (gave up >3ER 6IP and still won)
3 undeserved losses in which he gave up total 4ER is 22+IP
4 ND in which he gave up
2 ERs or less in 7+ IP pitched. Including a 9 inning shutout that Cleveland lost 0-1 in the 10th inning.
With even average luck, Sabathia would already be 20-6. With a bit good luck he could’ve been 24-4
“wang is not an ace” what kind of team has Wang as a third starter? He is a top 10 starting pitcher in the AL period. I don’t know how you would define the word “ace” but he is without question a legitimate number 1 starter.
I do agree with you though that Sabathia should be the CY Young (at this point in the season).
Loser of 9/15 (Wang vs Beckett) should be out of Cy Young contention. Fair enough?
The arguments here seems a little ridiculous, simply because we are arguing over the criteria that WE believe the Cy Young should be determined over. The fact of the matter is, it doesn’t matter what WE think, it’s what the BBWAA thinks; and historically, it tends to go to those with more wins.
For instance, you have these two pitchers:
PITCHER A: 228.2 IP, 3.15 ERA, 4 CG, 3 SHO, 214 K, 42 BB, 1.07 WHIP
PITCHER B: 220.1 IP, 3.51 ERA, 0 CG, 0 SHO, 213 K, 72 BB, 1.26 WHIP
Which one is statistically more deserving of a pitching award? Logically speaking, Pitcher A. Who won? Pitcher B. (That’s Mussina and Clemens from 2001, with 17-11 and 20-3 records, respectively.)
So regardless of what you personally feel is a good measure of Cy Young candidacy, wins historically is the measuring stick, unless something else is significant enough to alter the decision (like Pedro’s 1.74 ERA in 2000).
“Wins mean nothing”
Hmmm… guess that explains why Cy Young is in the hall… Those 511 wins meant nothing…
Also must explain why those first ten recipiants of the award all led their league (and most lead the majors) in wins in their year.
And it explains why the criteria used to qualify for the playoffs is wins, not staff ERA or HRs or some other criteria. Wins.
Yeah, wins mean nothing.
Patrick, yeah that might happen. But 20 times? Not likely. Even 18 times? Again, not likely. An individual event does not make a trend. Find me a poor pitcher (anytime in history) that got 18 or more wins because of run support. Maybe on the ‘27 Yankees? Waite Hoyt? Herb Pennock? Urban Shocker? All with 18 wins or more. On a team that was known for being an offensive powerhouse. And all with over 200 innings pitched… ERAs of 3.00 or below…2 of the 3 in the hall.
Pitchers that win 18, 19, 20 or more games? They’re good pitchers. At least that year.
And a pitcher who doesn’t manage it? That year, they just aren’t THAT good.
Any of you remember a guy that used to pitch for the NY Yankees named Jimmy Key? The big issue that the “pundits” used to talk about was him giving up runs when he was ahead… but he’d get the wins. He was a smart pitcher. He didn’t pitch to get more strikeouts or keep his ERA down. He pitched to win games. Who can tell me the lowest year of an ERA pitcher they have personally seen? I certainly can’t. Who can tell me the highest number of wins in a season by a starter they’ve personally seen? I can. Guidry. 25 wins. Wins don’t mean anything?
Santana ain’t getting it done this year. Wakefield is. Wakefield is the better pitcher. THIS YEAR. Certainly not last, and probably not next… but this year he is.
And Wang and Beckett are the best pitchers in the AL this year. Some could make a claim that Pettite would be up there if he’d had a bit of luck early in the season. He didn’t. So, he’s not. Same thing applies to all those others. Wang and Beckett are the guys getting it done.
This conversation is getting to be a bit much. In my opinion here’s how it breaks down:
Pitchers that win 20 games automatically get the exclusive consideration for the CY. So however good Sabathia is this season, he is getting the shaft IF Wang and/or Beckett win 20. Right or wrong that’s the benchmark. Most recent years, theres only one pitcher that wins 20 and that sets him aside from the rest. If there are two 20 game winners or no 20 game winners, total wins go out the window and you obviously look at ERA, WHIP etc as the tie breakers.
Al,
You’re an idiot. You think that because a pitcher receives more run support, he is somehow a better pitcher? Does Wakefield will his teammates to hit better than Santana does?
How does it make sense to use a stat that is HIGHLY dependent on one’s teammates in order to determine who should win an INDIVIDUAL award. The fact is a pitcher has no control over his teammates, and therefore punishing a pitcher for having fewer wins is ludicrous and ignorant.
Using CY Young winners’ stats from the past is a waste of time, we now have more advanced methods that help us to better determine which pitcher is actually “the best”. We have support neutral statistics now that didn’t exist in the 60’s. In addition, just because BBWAA looks at wins, doesn’t mean that was the original intention of the award. It goes to the best pitcher, and wins are not a good determination of who is actually the best pitcher. It is an ok indication, a starting point, but anyone who thinks it is the be all and end all stat is stupid.
Who cares about Cy Young Award if the Yankee can not have a good post season? Even Wang has said it many times that he put team success over his personal one. And he is not just saying it because that is who he is – a young pitcher from Taiwan who just wants to make the most impact he can make in MLB.
Forget about Cy Young Award, forget about him being the ACE, just recognize and respect his effort as a Yankee who wants to help his team win!
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7206774
One writer’s take on the AL CY. Acknowledges that Wang is pretty good, just not sexy enough. If he’s going to list Putz & Papelbon I think he should give Joba an honorable mention!
Yes, a pitcher has no control over his teammates. But controlled by his coach and affected by his teammate sometimes, not only good side — “SUPPORT”.
i.e., if bullpen was burn and ballclub need a SP to go deep. if he got Run support with big lead, yes, maybe coach will cost his personal stat for teammates’ rest even he is tired or the pitch count above standard. if he didn’t have run support, the difference is depends on what coach’s decision. maybe Win, maybe lose. maybe no decision.
I think Erik and Scis got it right. Ultimately, it’s hard not to give the Cy Young to the guy with 20+ wins.
Hughes5.50- Wow. Nice.
I was just thinking- this whole debate reminds me of the debates that went on when A-Rod was putting up MVP numbers for the Rangers.
A lot of people didn’t think A-Rod should get the MVP, because his team wasn’t going anywhere. The argument was- sure he’s a great player, but so what? Take him off the team, and not much changes in the standings. The MVP should go to the guy who has the biggest impact on his team.
This whole argument is basically the same. Those who look at wins as the ultimate decider for the CY think it demonstrates that the pitcher has given his team the most consistent chance at winning. If another guy gives up fewer runs, but his team doesn’t win, then so what? Ultimately it’s standings that matter.
It’s an interesting argument. We certainly have enough stat-heads these days to make wins relatively obsolete in determining the CY winner, because we could look at number that relate exclusively to the pitchers performance. But I think a lot of people wouldn’t be satisfied with that, because ultimately, if the team doesn’t win with that pitcher on the mound, then what’s the point?
Anyway, all this is just hot air. Wang will obviously be considered for the CY. If he has the most wins in the league, he’ll have a decent shot at it. If he doesn’t, then he won’t get it.
K=Ass
No K = No Ass
Beckett is Ass.
Sabathia, Santana, Escobar, Beckett, and Haren hava all been much better than Wang.
Oh, and I forgot Bedard who has been much better despite being shutdown now.
??:
“you do realize that Cy Young pitched at a time when catching a ball on one hop was an out, right? ”
That was no longer the rule when Cy Young was playing major league ball.