The hidden value of Johnny Damon
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- September
- 11
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Johnny Damon stinks, right? He’s hitting .256, he has 54 RBI. He’s finished. Kaput. Done. Call him a cab.
Not so fast.
Damon has scored 80 runs, hit 10 home runs and stolen 20 bases. Only six other outfielders or designated hitters in baseball have done that this season — Grady Sizemore, Gary Sheffield, Curtis Granderson, Carl Crawford, Eric Byrnes and Bobby Abreu.
OK, you say that stolen bases are meaningless. Take those out and factor in Damon’s .347 OBP and he is one of 16 OF/DH types with as many runs, homers and that high of an OBP.
That tells me two things: Either the Yankees should keep him around or maybe Brian Cashman could really get something good for him.
Either way, he’s not a bum.
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on Tuesday, September 11th, 2007 at 12:32 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
Okay, Peter, look at the statistics of the other OF/DH types you mention. They all blow away Johnny Damon’s production don’t they?
I’m really glad Johnny has been able to SOMEWHAT salvage his season, but he is NOT having as good of a season as you’re making him out to have. That comparison is ludicrous.
I know Damons one of your boys Pete but theres no going around the fact that he’s underperformed. Big time, 2 years into a 4 year contract and he was falling to pieces in midseason, luckily he turned it around somewhat.
Still, I think it’ the best for him and the more importantly the Yankees if they move him. With Posada,Giambi, and Matsui……we don’t need any more people clogging the DH spot.
I love Damon. I’d be very sad to see him leave the team. I think the energy he brings, his enthusiasm, or you could call them ‘intangibles’ (i know people hate that term) really give him a lot of value.
plus – who’s to say we’re having trouble paying his salary. we can afford his contract for crying out loud
still find it kind of funny that damon turned his season around, once shelley was called up.
and it’s almost starting to seem like the same deal for farnsworth, once joba was called up.
We need a lead off hitter on this team. Melky has not your typical lead off hitter, whereas Damon is.
I’m not saying bench Melky, we certainly need his glove and he has a very nice end of the order bat. But certainly play Damon at DH because he fills a need more so then any of our other guys.
Look, I’m Giuseppe Franco. Would I attach my name to comment without knowing that it work ?
I mean for God sakes, I do Gary Busey’s hair!
saucy,
I agree. Callups are a surefire way to get the juices going.
Hey, speaking of Shelley, here’s a funny interview with Shelley (Andrea alert!). The first answer is a riot. He was really torn. lol.
http://www.nydailynews.com/blo.....uncan.html
I like Damon in left, Matsui as DH, and Giambi at first. When Giambi is gone in 2009 (?) then they can find a younger, cheaper first baseman with potential.
I don’t see any reason why Damon shouldn’t play left field instead of Matsui… the Melkman-Damon-Abreu combo is great speed all around out there. Only way Matsui should be out there is to keep him in the lineup (aka the DH spot is taken). I’m not knocking Matsui, but seeing Damon and Melky patrol has been a pleasure to watch lately.
Given a choice, I’d keep Damon and toss the albatross that is Giambi at this point. Putting Damon in Left, Matsui as DH. With both Giambi and Matsui sluimping at the moment, it’s a toss up. Of course, finding someone to take on his contract is impossible.
I think you have to discount Runs Scored somewhat when you’re in the Yankees lineup. ANYONE who bats regularly in this lineup will score frequently when you have all those other guys to drive you in.
The quesion is, how does Johnny compare with other OF/DH’s after factoring out Runs Scored?
I would keep Damon and Abreu, and trade Matsui.
Matsui’s defense stinks, he has knee problems, and he is absurdly streaky.
I do agree that Damon helps this team.
The biggest thing that has helped him, are the days off anf the DH spots hes been getting.
We all know Damon gets a whole lot of bumps and bruises, and plays through them.. But when hes not pushed as hard and those can heal a bit, he becomes a big asset to the team.
.256/.347/.377 is ugly, and there really isn’t any way to spin it as otherwise.
Furthermore, calling him an OF/DH type serves to highlight his failure this year: this man was the team’s starting CF, and lost his job (rightfully so) to Melky Cabrera, and is now a utility player.
So yeah, he does suck, at least this year. Last year he was very good. Two more years on that contract…
Trade Matsui? No way.
Sunny,
I agree with you, if it’s a choice between Damon and Giambi, Damon’s more useful. But who’s going to pick up Giambi? His contract is huge, he has baggage (who doesn’t at this point?), and he’s not exactly lighting it up at the plate. Picking up Abreu’s option is a no-brainer, but we still don’t know what’s up with Matsui’s knees and the long term prognosis. At this point, it looks like the wise thing to do would be to not pursue any big contracts in the outfield. It’s patchwork, but it’s better than going after Hunter and Jones. Despite what the guys at ESPN think about Melky, value-wise it’s worth it keep him in center.
It is kind of cool to have such a stud bench, though.
Detroit playing a double header in Arlington. Pudge left last night’s game with dizziness. Texas up 1-0.
big mistake if damon is shipped off. who leads off in ‘08? no one on the team comes close to what he brings to the lead off spot.
Nah they won’t trade Matsui…
Not only is he a good player, but just on a bussneiss level, he brings a lot of attention to the Yankees from across the Pacific.
Left field is Matsui territory. The only reason why Damon’s out there is because he got bumped out of center and Matsui’s knees are bothering him. Matsui is a naturalized Yankee, he’s not going anywhere.
I wouldn’t trade Matsui away. First thing I’d have him do in the off season is get his knees back to normal (by ’scope or whatever the docs think is best) and he should be better next year.
but he’s still not a slouch this year. Sure, he could be doing a little better and be more consistent, but what I’m saying is the difference could be just his knees.
Damon should do better too (as Pete pointed out he’s still contributing in many ways) but he has his mother’s throwing arm. If we didn’t have the obligation to Giambi (do you hear that Brian???) I would see Damon as DH and 4th OF next year. Sushi, Melky and Abreu’s replacment would be the starting 3.
Mel,Sunny,
I agree, its Giambi that needs to be shipped out. Eat half his final year of his salary and call it a day. If Frank Thomas had takers than im sure someone will take the bait on Giambi. Also, its time to make Matsui a dh. His bat far outwieghs his defense. Therefore you place Damon in left and keep abreu.
If noone takes Giambi or he refuses to go,bite the bullet and find a taker for Damon.That is after threatening Giambi that he will be no more than a pinch hitter. Damon will not accept being the 4th outfielder.
His runs are strictly a product of batting infront of Jeter, Abreu, A Rod, Matsui…nothing more or less. If anything, as a lead off hitter, 80 runs in our lineup is an unbelievable failure. Look into how many times Damon “stealing” second or third resulted in a single or sac fly that scored him versus someone hitting a homerun (A Rod) or a double (which would have scored him anyway).
If we decide not to keep Abreu, see if we could get Rowand for a 2 yr. 11 mil range deal. Place Melky in right.
With Damon gone, Jeter would be a perfect fit in the leadoff spot again. He actually had better numbers there the season prior to getting Damon.
http://www.nydailynews.com/blo.....lone01.jpg
great pic there. it’s like shelley’s about to arm-bash the dude walking by…
Ranting Guy,
You don’t see Abreu back in ‘08? I don’t like his phobia of stationary objects, but $16M/1 year is cheap. Abreu also gets on base, is good for Alex’s production, and has a little bit of power.
Who do you think the Yankees will get to replace him?
Correction: double header is being played in Detroit. Texas up 2-0.
1 more point. To put runs into perspective: Andruw Jones, who has spent a good deal of the year batting behind the 5 spot, has 74 runs. He’s hitting .223 and has a .314 OBP. Of course, Andruw at least plays centerfield.
I like Damon, but his physical issues and his inability to actually be a starting center fielder make him a “bust” for now.
Saucy,
Hah, yah thats an amusing picture
I’ve never once said he’s bum, however he’s a 15 million a year player who took more than 1/2 a season off (much like Abreu and Cano).
If he was truly injured, he should have been disabled and I don’t buy this “Torre made me play through injuries” BS he’s spun as the season wore on. This team is very sensitive to players who need time on the DL. I don’t see the Yankees as an organization who tells people they HAVE TO play. See Pavano, Carl for proof.
Damon didn’t go on the DL because I believe, as has been reported multiple times, he knew he showed up out of shape this season and was trying to play himself into shape. There is no other way to explain how the guy suddenly regained his speed later in the season while never having any DL or surgery time.
He was mentally checked out for a lot of the season and if he just helped Jeter, Arod and Posada during those stretches where they were the only offense, we’d be a first place team right now.
I don’t think he suddenly healed from his injuries because Torre benched him in favor of Melky. I think somewhere during the season, the switch flicked on for him and he got into shape and focused more.
Does that make him a bum? No. He just needs to finish strong and show up for this team in the post season. Everyone will forget the first half of the season and will instead reward him for being classy about Melky taking over CF and Johnny still providing the team with his offense.
I like Damon and I want him to do well here. At times I think he’s a little too buddy buddy with opposing players and I just don’t like seeing that as a fan (hate when Jeter does it), but I also think he can be a gamer and big stage performer and I think he plenty left in the tank if he takes the rest of the career seriously.
West Coast Fan
September 11th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
big mistake if damon is shipped off. who leads off in ‘08? no one on the team comes close to what he brings to the lead off spot.
You may be overrating the leadoff spot, there. Jeter or Melky could probably do it. This isn’t to say I want Damon shipped or anything. Just a reminder that during the Yanks dominating period of the 1950’s into the 1960’s, their predominant leadoff men were Hank Bauer and Bobby Richardson, neither of whom were prototypical leadoff men. Richardson, in fact, scored only 80 runs in 1961 despite hitting in front of two guys who combined for 115 HR.
Yeah, I think we’re down on Johnny because he’s having a down year. It’s also been an adjustment for him because the Yankees do things a certain way. I don’t think you’ll hear much grumbling to the media from him and he knows he has to work hard and produce because the Yankees have a surplus of quality players.
If I could bring in 2 young players I’d bring in Maui boys Shane Victorino and Kurt Suzuki.
More importantly, Damon’s slugging percentage is 100 points less than last year. You can’t have a left fielder who can’t slug. Damon’s creating less runs per game than he ever has and is below average in some categories for the league average hitter. Check out baseball reference and see for yourself.
I think you keep Abreu for the $16 million option.
Then continue what is being done this year – a “platoon” of Damon, Matsui & Giambi at DH/1B.
Let their contracts run out and get the draft picks. Abreu and Giambi in 2008, Matsui & Damon in 2009. I would rather have the first or second tier draft pick then 50 cents on the dollar in a trade – and that’s what you’ll get for any of them.
Matsui has always been streaky, the bad part of the streak last longer as one gets older. Same for Giambi. They are simply not everyday players anymore but are good for 120 or so games. Keep them fresh at that number of games.
Keep him and exercise Abreu option. I like having 4 capable outfielders. Depth is a good thing, remember?
I feel dirty talking about the off season and moves we may or may not make.
I don’t think we’ll be seeing the off season for quite sometime!
I doubt Johnny wants to be a 4th OF. I’d see what we could get for him this offseason.
If its between Giambi and Damon, I would rather have Damon on my team. I like speed, and Avg vs. OBP. Give me a lineup of Jeters and Damons 1-9 and Ill show you a winning team.
I can see the Yankees trading Damon in this offseason because he doesnt have a complete no trade clause. But I still would rather keep him over Giambi.
Hey Pete, Does Giambi become easier to trade this offseason with only one year left on his contract?
4-0 texas
Johnny doesn’t want to be a 4th OF either. He as much said there are other teams out there who want him. I think it’ll be Johnny leaving rather than the Yankees trying to move him.
HaHa, DMan. It’s better than having angst about who’s in our rear view mirror. Texas up 4-0.
S.oS.27
Wow that didn’t take long in that game did it?
Pitching change in the 3rd. Hopefully they use up their bullpen up now. So they will be out of commision come tonights game.
Detroit should have lost last night too. Whats with Toronto keeping Halladay in for a complete game? I would take 7 innings from any one of my pithcers!
*Late Breaking News*
Detroit has had 3 walkoffs in 6 games. Thier luck will run out here shortly. These so called easy teams they are playing are giving them all they can handle. By this weekend the conversation will be can we get the division and no longer the wild card.
Ya.. 123 Pitches for Halladay.. Whew..
Trying to get rid of a player who has been consistently above average to good and sometimes great (game 7 ALCS, Massacre 2) after just one below average season is just like trying to sign a consistently bad player like who had one very good season. Enough of your knee jerk reactions to Johnny. He has been very good last year and before. He has been performing poorly for half a season this year. And those of you who want him gone, please suggest a better replacement.
Wild pitch and an error in the same inning 5-0. Wheels are falling off.
Yeah Pete, .256 BA, .347 OBP, and 20 SB are such good numbers. Please. For Damon’s talent, 2006, career before that, and $13M he’s making this year, that’s a bum. He once said he was out of shape and whined about playing time, and don’t tell me that hasn’t affected his play. He’s so good Cabrera took his job in CF and he’s fighting for DH ABs with Giambi, Betemit, and Duncan which turned him into a 4 games out of every 6 player. Damon would be a goner if his contract was up after this year, that’s how good he is. He’s a notch above 2001 Knoblauch and nowhere close to 1998-2000 Knoblauch or certainly 1993-96 Boggs. Damon is an awful first at-bat leadoff hitter -please tell me how many times the Yanks have scored 3 or more runs in the first inning with him getting on base to lead the game, I count maybe 3X. Or it just seems every time he steps to the plate to start off the Yanks’ offensive night, he’s not on base for the other guys.
Checked who’s batted in front of him to knock him in 80 times lately? Jeter, Abreu, A-Rod, Matsui, Posada, the last 4 all with at least 90 RBI (one has 100+ while 2 have a good shot at that), 4 of the 5 batting .300 or better with a chance for Abreu to join the club if he goes on a good enough tear. Cano will drive in at least 80 runs if not bat .300+ also. I should hope Damon scores 80 runs with those six guys plus Cabrera and Giambi after him. If anything, they’re making the times he gets on base count with his pathetic BA and OBP. Assuming he’s at least 20 for 80 / .250 with say 8 walks (.350 OBP) for 28 total times on base decent in the final 19 games, he should score at least 90 runs. That’s not really hard to do with a 2-7 like the Yanks have. Runs is more of a function of who’s batting in front of a player than the player.
Bottom line is he’s posted awful BA, OBP, and SB for a leadoff hitter. Since when do we factor in HR and RBI with leadoff hitters? Since never and b.t.w. 10 HR and 54 RBI isn’t that impressive for an A.L. leadoff hitter esp. when he has not one easy out in the lineup after him (even Giambi who can wear you out with his eye).
The Yanks should definitely trade him. I’d offer him and $13M half his remaining $26M salary so whoever takes him has him for just 2 years, $13M, $6.5M/yr. The Yanks clear $13M:
$6.5M for next year, $6.5M for 2009, and could easily get
two new lefty relievers and a new righty reliever to complement a re-signed Mo and Vizcaino, Farnsworth, and whoever wins the final slot in the bullpen. I’m figuring $5M for the lefties and $1.5M for the righty, with the money cleared trading Damon.
If you think .256/ .347/ 20 are even bare-minimum acceptable numbers for a leadoff hitter and someone making $13M/yr., you aren’t as knowledgable about baseball as you and your fans think you are and how you got a job covering M.L.B. and the Yankees is beyond me. You have to put aside your personal like for the guy and see him for what he is: a subpar leadoff hitter who’s past is better than his present or future.
The Trade Damon Bunch. Another example of the loony fan.
Wow, retaliation in the very next innings. What a novel concept. Way to go Padilla.
talk about spinning #’s.
Damon is an awful lead off batter. How many games has he led off with a pop fly that doesn’t get out of the infield.
He is so inconsistent. Sure he does have huge games, and helps the team win some games. But let’s be fair here, he will go 4-5 with 5 rbi’s one day, and will get 2 bloops in the next 4 games.
He def was a ROID abuser.
Was the first HPB on purpose? Im just looking at a box score over here
*Late Breaking News*
I) *Rocket* will rejoin the Yankees today in Toronto. He spoke with Cashman yesterday, reporting that his sore right elbow was feeling better.
Cash said Clemens threw two light side sessions in Houston over the weekend.
Clemens will throw a full bullpen session today at the Rogers Centre in front of the Yankees’ coaching staff, at which time his status will be evaluated for the weekend.
II) Cash says the team medical reports *Jeter’s* stiff right knee isn’t a serious problem, “they said it wasn’t serious and that he would benefit from day off.”
Torre expects Jeter to return tonight, whether it will be as the DH or shortstop on the artificial turf will be determined later today.
*Red Sox Report*
I) Turns out *Manny* didn’t travel on the Sox’s recent road trip. Instead he chilled out at his south Florida home. Gee, where’s ESPN with their hysterics now??
The 35 year old Manny (gee, he kinda looks older) took 15 swings off a tee yesterday, swinging the bat for the first time 14 days. “He’s still a little tender to the touch, but he’s able to do the work,” Francona said. “We need to get that soreness out of there before you can turn him loose with all that torque that swinging involves. Controlled is one thing; doing it, even in BP or a game, is still another. We’re not quite there yet.”
II) *David Ortiz* revealed yesterday he will have his knee surgically repaired next month. In his lone at bat last nite, he visible hobbled to first base during a pop out.
III) Terry Francona said *Doug Mirabelli’s* strained left hamstring will keep him from catching Tim Wakefield on tonite. He will be replaced by Kevin Cash.
*Ghosts of 1978*
On May 29, we were eight games below .500, now we’re a season-high 19 over .500, with a four game Wild Card lead, going 9-3 over the last two weeks, producing angina and fear in the Red Sox Nation.
We lead the majors in runs (844), batting average (.290), on-base percentage (.364), slugging percentage (.466) and OPS(.830).
G.Love,
Thank God you are not the yankees GM. If you were, many yankee fans would either have commites suicide or would be in jail for killing a baseball GM.
Havent we all realized that having a quality bench and many pieces is a good thing????
Could it be that Damons struggles started in spring training with him comming in overwieght? If I can recall the team was upset with him about that. We have no room for him unless Giambi,Matsui or Abreu go. He wont accept being 4th.
DR. Acula,
Whats the Late Breaking News?
So now Damon is a “roid abuser”.
If you’re going to try and trash someone at least show some common sense, some class and some decency.
Dr. Acula,
Thanks for the update. Its good to see they got Clemens back with enough time to watch him pitch and evaluate where he stands health wise…
But you’ve got to figure hes going to get a start.
‘Manny being Manny’ right? What else is new?
Dman,
Apparently not, Tigers crew not making a big deal out of it. Apparently he hit 16 last year and it’s down to only 8 this year. It seems that he does not have the control of our man-child Joba, so Padilla can get away with a HBP. No-hitter through 3.
Here is my bare minimum acceptable leadoff hitter:
.280 BA
.370 OBP
80 BB
SO 10 BB
30 SB
5 CS
25 doubles
5 triples
I don’t think the above is unreasonable to expect. A leadoff hitters is the one you want up there the most in a game so he’s held to a higher standard than most of the other batters in the lineup (to me the #2, 5 through 9 hitters).
Just like Bernie wouldn’t get 300+ at bats this yr being the 5th OF?
Or just like Melky wouldnt get regular at bats being the 4th OF?
You never know what is going to happen.
Damon is not an old man. He is in his prime. He is a prideful athlete who will come into camp in great shape next year looking to play everyday.
Who wouldnt want that on the team?
In LF, DH, or 1b???
Name 3 leadoff hitters with those stats.
You can’t.
Take that back, the no-hitter’s gone. The last Tiger hit a single, but it hit the baserunner for the unassisted out.
I don’t care about next yr
I care about this yr and Damon is starting to turn it on when it counts.
Does anyone doubt that he will bring it in the playoffs?
Find me a more clutch hitter out of the leadoff spot.
How pathetic are the Tigers?
After that classic win they come out this flat today???
I hope we bury them this week with a solid 4-2 week.
damon was injured the first half of this season . fact
I’m with SoS 27, Aaron Rowand in CF and Melky in RF. Cashman should make every effort to part with Giambi in the offseason. Matsui and Damon can flip-flop at DH / LF with Shelley or possibly Brett Gardner as backups. No picking up Abreu’s option.
mel-
Wow thats quite a way to end the no hitter..
I find it hilarious that Yankee fans can bash Damon after what he’s done the past month here.
My guess is that they are Sox trolls.
Matty H,
The Tigers didn’t win last night, the Jays lost!
I hate Damon and it has nothing to do with the kind of year he is having. I hated him last year and look at the numbers he put up. The man is painted in my mind as a Redsox and thats why I will never care for him. With that said I hope he hits 2 Hrs tonight.
John,
Some want him traded, but some of us are willing to ride out this season to see what he brings to the table next year.
As for being a proud athlete showing up to camp ready to go? What happened this year? We don’t really know, but there was a mysterious LOA during camp. Johnny’s been doing this for how many years? I bet it’s the first time he showed up overweight and unprepared. But for now I’ll accept the “overdid the weight-lifting” reason he gave.
If he can accept the role of the 4th OF (Matsui’s still the guy in LF), with DH/1B action that’s great. I think he’ll see the benefits of being part of a flexible, fluid lineup. He’ll be fresher and he is getting older/creakier. Learning new positions can make him more valuable and extend his career. I think that he’s over the initial shock and hurt and has come around to benefits of being part of a flex lineup.
Another thing:
While we have Damon, the Red Sox don’t.
Oh, and he can kinda sorta play that left field pretty well…
Yeah, don’t pick up Abreu’s option. he’s been TERRIBLE this year
LOL
Have you people seen the effect he’s had on the guy hitting behind him????
Wow.
Rebecca,
Yeah the whole addition by subtraction thing worked out last year and the first half of this year, but Crisp is over his injuries and is doing well now in Boston.
Kj,
I can understand that feeling.. I’m from Boston, and almost everybody here hates Damon now. They call him a sellout, they make fun of how he looks without long hair, etc..
So I actually look at Damon as a sort of example of just how fickle the Red Sox loyalties actually are.
They care more that hes on the Yankees then they do that he helped them win a championship.
Every time Bobby walks, it forces the opposing pitcher to pitch to Arod.
He’s not finished, but the argument you used to prove that he’s good is just absurd. Firstly, of course he’s going to score a lot of runs because he is batting leadoff for the best offense in baseball. Runs scored is a team stat and Damon is helped by the team.
Did somebody just say Damon is in his prime? or was that suppose to be a joke?
Meh, we’d be alright in terms of leadoff if Damon wasn’t here, he’s hitting 250 and has an OBP of 350. Nothing special and the runs scored is a gimmie when your in this lineup. Jeter/Melky can be fine lead off hitters on this team next year if Johnny “Many teams are interested in me” Damon is moved.
mel,
Do you really expect athletes to tell you when they are hurting everyday? Or when they are hurt at all?
Some guys take pride in playing everyday and being there for their teammates and don’t use excuses.
You ever think an injury might be why Damon was a slow starter this year??
Doubtful some of you would actually think for a second.
Then again this is the same group that wanted A-Rod traded last Oct.
So why am I even bothering arguing with you?
6-0
DMan,
Let me get this straight. They make fun of him because he DOESN’T look like a caveman?
Is it an understatement to say that this Texas series is very important for Detroit? I’m glad we played Texas earlier in the season. Their bats are smoking. 3 HR already, 6-0.
The Tigers must take 2 today in order to build any momentum or else call themselves one year wonders. Cleveland will be looking to let the last of the air from the Tigers next week to wrap up the Central.
Crisp is awful. He can’t hit and his defense is overrated. Anyone looks good diving for balls. Too bad he takes bad routes and doesn’t judge fly balls well.
They will beg teams to take Crisp in November.
Mel-
Basically yes.. They see the yankees rules agasint long hair and not being able to chew dip and all that as strict and stuck up..
Where as they see the long hair and ‘idiots’ and the roughneck attitudes as making the sox ‘Americas’ team..
Basically, what we see as professionalism in the Yankees, they see as a team having no personality.
I’d much rather have Kevin Thompson or Kevin Reese as a 4th OF!
Oy vey
it’s hard to imagine, but i wonder how yankee fans would respond if a high-profile player left the yanks for the sox…
Blubber
Uh, you’re the troll. What’s up people? Can’t argue without namecalling and accusing people of being trolls, the latter being the typical copout? First off, the Yanks surge has to do with all these things before Damon: A-Rod, Wang, Mo, Pettitte, Joba, Cabrera, Abreu, Matsui, Jeter, Posada, Cano, the bench. Damon has been a nice role player, that’s it. That’s great if he was making $3M, but he’s making $13M and I have a problem with that, that’s my problem. He’s overpaid , overrated, and closer to being over the hill than being a guy who can hit over .279 which is what I expect a leadoff hitter to bat. You want the money, you have to perform accordingly.
John Long Island
Damon is not in his prime, please. His best prime was as a Red Sock, last year looks like the last year of his prime.
Name three leadoff hitters with better stats, o.k. Jose Reyes, Curtis Granderson, and Chone Figgins. Those guys scare me 10X > Damon does. Yes, I truly dread Figgins in the A.L.D.S. when the Yanks most likely draw the Angels there yet again. I seriously doubt the Angels come close to dreading or even fearing Damon, and that’s all you need to know about Damon.
For my money (okay, George’s…), I really like this roster as is. I like having a Giambi/Duncan combo on the bench and can certainly live with Minky and Betemit as the other two guys. The six-headed monster that is Damon/Matsui/Giambi/Duncan/Minky/Betemit certainly allows the Yankees some flexibility, and gives them the opportunity to play both “small ball” and “long ball”, as we’ve seen them do time and time again over the course of the last 10 weeks. Add Jose Molina to the “big six” of A-Rod, Jeter, Cano, Abreu, Jorge and Melky and you’ve got the strongest group of any team in baseball; one that gives you tremendous power, very good defense and good speed.
That allows Joe to have 12 pitchers and you can play with that all you want, but we know that it includes:
Wang
Hughes
Kennedy
Chamberlain
Pettitte
Rivera
Farnsworth
Vizcaino
Mussina
and some combination of three of:
Britton
Edwar Ramirez
Ohlendorf
Villone
Igawa
Horne
Sanchez
Pay all the salaries of the above for 2008, given the following:
A-Rod 35.0
Jeter 19.0
Cano 1.0
Abreu 16.0
Posada 15.0
Melky 1.0
Giambi 21.0
Minky 2.0
Betemit 1.0
Damon 13.0
Matsui 13.0
Duncan 1.0
Wang 1.0
Hughes .5
Kennedy .5
Chamberlain .5
Pettitte 16.0
Rivera 13.0
Farnsworth 6.0
Vizcaino 3.0
Mussina 11.0
Igawa 4.0
Britton .5
Other 1.0
All told, adds to about 195.0. Add Pavano at 10.0 and some other spare parts on the 40-man at about an average of 1.0 – 2.0 each (league minimum for 2008 is 390K), and you’re looking at a total payroll of about $225.0M.
Given that roster, I think the Steinbrenners sign up for that in a heartbeat, considering:
1) they are contributing over $100M per year via luxury tax and revenue sharing with a similar salary figure for 2007;
2) the key free agents will return because Joe Torre will return, for, I’m guessing a three year re-up (that will put him, given 95 wins per year, at Joe McCarthy’s all-time Yankee mark of 1,460, and likely leave him 4th on MLB’s all-time wins list at around 2,350).
3) they will make a LOT more money once the New Yankee Stadium opens the following year (don’t forget that before the “Joe Torre Era”, they never reached 3.0M in attendance and wanted to relocate to Manhatten);
4) the team (THIS team) has a record of 43-21 since July 2, when the pieces started coming together.
If I were King for a day….
9-0 RANGERS
John,
I’m on your side. I just don’t remember what the injury was. If he had foot problems and wasn’t able to train in the offseason, then o.k. But why lift and get heavier?
If you’re injured to the point where it seriously affects your game, you have an obligation to tell the trainers and coaching staff. There’s nothing wrong with going on the DL if you’re injured.
o.k., now it’s just downright ugly. 9-0 on 4 homers.
And to be fair Johnny wasn’t the only one struggling.
Make it 10-0 on 5 homeruns.
For all our complaining abt Texas selling Gagne for 60 cents on the dollar, it appears they sold him for a dollar on 60 cents. I know the sample size is small, but David Murphy has been doing pretty well for Texas and Gabbard has given up less than 3 runs in all but one of his 6 starts for texas (not counting the start he was pulled for safety concerns). He also went atleast six innings in all but one start.
With a name like “Damon blows” it seems you’re the troll.
I guess you weren’t cheering last week when he hit the homer to beat the Sox.
Right?
It’s okay that you are a Sox fan. Just be honest.
Who doesn’t want as much talent on the team as possible?
What do you care if someone isn’t 100% happy everyday? That’s the managers job.
And I think Joe Torre knows how to deal with people.
Make that 10-0,need to save some runs for tonights game.
This whole argument whether Damon is good or not is besides the point. The question is whether or not he will play as a 4th outfielder. He has made comments at the trading deadline that several teams inquered about him. That tells me he wasnt too happy with the roll. Can he start in center. YES. But not on this team. Is he past his prime? Absolutely.
Damon seems to be peaking at the right time. Apparently he’s getting healthy and he is starting to hit.
I’m in the camp of believing that Johnny D had physical maladies this offseason [well, maybe some mental ones, too], which resulted in him reporting overweight and out of shape. I think he will rebound next year and provide an offensive spark to the team, as well as being a good guy for team chemistry. Because of that, I think the correct path is to play Johnny mainly in left field, with Melky in center, Matsui as the DH and Giambi at first. I know, I know, Giambi can’t play the entire year at first due to being brittle. The idea of getting these guys 120 games or so has a lot of merit to me [well, Melky needs more, but play the vets enough to get production and keep them in a groove, but rest them enough to stay fresh]. That’s a gut feeling on Johnny, can’t prove it, can’t really disprove it, either. We’ll see next year, whether he is playing for us or elsewhere, I think he’ll have a strong season.
passerby,
Yup. I thought that Boston gave up way too much and that was before Gagne got off to his “bad start” as the Detroit broadcasters comically understated.
The media & Boston want to believe that Gabbard was rubbish, but he’s looking pretty good on that young Texas team. Gagne hasn’t pitched since 8/26. hmmm.
How do we or anyone know what will happen during the off season or at the start of the year?
Why wouldn’t we want as many talented players competing for spots as we can?
Having too much talent is a good problem people.
Say it with me please.
Does anyone else get the feeling that if det. knocked us off the wildcard, that they would screw A-rod and hand the m.v.p. to Ordonez?
Yeah you seriously can’t use runs to defend Damon. Those runs mostly come from the fact that he bats leadoff. But his performance this season, at least compared to to the rest of the Yankee lineup, dictates that he should be batting in the lower third of the order, And then he wouldn’t have nearly as many runs. But the Yankees were stubborn and kept using him in the leadoff spot, and so of course he’s going to score lots of runs since he is good enough at getting on base and there are plenty of good bats hitting behind him to drive him in. Look at Albert Pujols this year. His Runs and RBI numbers are way down from his norm and that’s because the rest of the Cardinals lineup is complete garbage. There is nobody for him to drive in, and there is nobody to drive him in. Runs and RBIS are way too dependent on not only your position in the batting order but also the other bats around you. If Damon was batting in the lower third of the order, which is where he should be, he would have far fewer runs scored. Abreu and Jeter would clearly be better leadoff guys than Damon. They both have good speed, like Damon does as well, but they are usually much better at getting on base.
Damon is just having a bad year. Last season he was fantastic. But you can’t defend him much this year. The best you can say is that he has certainly picked it up in the second half of the season. But his first half was just beyond awful.
WHO CARES WHAT DAMON GETS PAID. Its not your money…
Guess Texas wants to get 30 again, don’t they?
I mean, it is football country down there, so I guess they think why not have a football score…
actually the fans pay the bills .
No one thought Boston gave up too much for Gagne.
Gabbard is a decent starter with below avg stuff and Murphy is a 4th outfielder.
Yeah you seriously can’t use runs to defend Damon. Those runs mostly come from the fact that he bats leadoff.
Doesn’t that leadoff hitter need to GET ON BASE TO SCORE RUNS????
Dummy.
How flat is Detroit?
I thought they’d sweep them after last nights huge win.
This team won’t make up 4 games.
I for one do not give a rats what Damon did from April til mid August.
I care about from mid Aug til Nov 1.
I think he’ll keep producing like he has been and we’re all going to be cheering for him during a nice little parade.
Leyland cannoy be happy with this game 1 today.
Rick,
Boston Rick? It was a lot of personnel for a 3 month rental. Gabbard was doing a good enough job, you could argue that he was doing better than Dice-K.
Gagne’s not even doing what he was supposed to do which was set up Paps and spell him once in a while in save opportunities. In hindsight, Texas absolutely came out on top. By the way, who paid for Gagne’s bonus to get rid of the NTC?
DAMN!!11-0
Now they will probably get shut out in game 2
No, Leyland can’t.
But we can!
(Texas has SIX home runs…)
Boston Murphy is a single away from the cycle. Not bad for a 4th OF.
Tiger crew trying to figure out how the wind is helping Texas, but not helping Detroit.
“WHO CARES WHAT DAMON GETS PAID. Its not your money…”
Damon’s salary impacts how much we can afford to spend on future free agents, and directly affects his trade value to other teams. Why wouldn’t it be relevant?
I can’t speak for everybody in Boston, but most people felt like they really got a steal in that trade..
It did make sense for Boston, because they didn’t need a 5th starter, and they didn’t need a 5th outfielder.
They had Bucholz to take that 5th spot when needed, and they had Elsbury ready to take on the 4th/5th OF roll…
So they could afford to do it but, it does look like they didn’t get the right value out of that trade.
Money matters when it comes to value. If you’re going to have someone with a huge contract underperforming, you might as well have a prospect come up and give you the same production while gaining valuable experience for less money. Value. That’s why Wang, Cano, Chamberlain, and Cabrera are so valuable. They’re performing at high levels at a low cost.
What a shame the Blue Jays couldn’t get one out in the 9th last night.
Before everyone sharpens their swords and cuts heads let’s remember that about 80% of Yankee fans wanted A Rod’s head on a stick last year.
When I look at Giambi or Matsui coming up to bat I’m thinking that they are overdue to hit. These guys didn’t lose their ability overnight.
It’s runs, not SBs, that are the meaningless stat in Pete’s list, due to the players that bat after him. In fact you can point to Damon’s 80 runs to say he isn’t playing well. If he were getting on base or hitting for more power, he’d have scored a lot more.
Damon has proven he can still be a very good centerfielder when healthy, both in the field and with the bat. Not sure why everyone wants to trade him right now, especially with no RF signed yet for next season.
“Here is my bare minimum acceptable leadoff hitter:
.280 BA
.370 OBP
80 BB
SO 10 BB
30 SB
5 CS
25 doubles
5 triples”
You do realize that your completely ignoring power, right?
The only thing “hidden” about Johnny Damon’s value this year is that he’s walked enough to maintain a decent OBP despite his low BA. It’s still way too low to be a leadoff batter though, then again he’s never had a high enough OBP to be the great leadoff hitter he’s touted as.
According to the Baseball Musing lineup analysis tool, our ideal lineup would be:
Jeter
Posada
Abreu
Rodriguez
Matsui
Cano
Giambi
Cabrera
Damon
Passer By — Not sure why you singled me out. Your comment to me sounds like insane rambling. Never once in my post did I discuss anything that was a GM type decision.
To quickly paraphrase, I said Damon showed up out of shape and short on spirit, something that everyone in baseball pretty much agrees with.
I then said if he finishes strong, he’ll make everyone forget that he was barely a player this season until Shelley got called up.
I’m not sure how that statement relates to being an armchair GM, but it seems you’re just a little too excited and frothing at the mouth for rainy Tuesday afternoon.
Practice some reading comprehension before you respond to people’s posts. Putz.
Adam’s right (or Baseball Musing). The best hitters should have most of the at-bats. I like that lineup.
Concerning the current “standard” lineup, Posada should be moved up to 5th. He has been more consistent that anyone else. Then Cano 6th, Matsui 7th, the Melky, Damon and Giambi 8th. Giambi would walk or hit into a double play ever time.
Mark Montclair, I agree that getting on-base is the hallmark of a good leadoff hitter. But guess what, Damon’s OBP is lower than Abreu, Jeter, ARod, Posada, Matsui, and even Cano. And Melky is at .346, which is very close to Damon’s .347. My point is, if you put Abreu or Jeter in that spot, they will score much more than Damon’s 80 runs because they get on base much more. Damon is ok at getting on base, but he is far from great at it. In fact, I just listed 6 guys on the same team with better OBP’s than Damon, which means Damon should be batting in the lower third in the order. He has no business getting more plate appearances than guys like Jeter and Abreu and Posada and ARod and Matsui. And as the leadoff hitter, you are giving him more plate appearances in a given game than all of those guys, which doesn’t maximize the lineup’s potential. Look at Adam’s results from baseballmusings. They have Damon batting 9th! So you should refrain from using the word “dummy” in future posts, unless the post is of a self-deprecating nature.
This isn’t rocket science. Damon is one of the worst (regular) hitters on the team this year.
There really isn’t any way to twist the stats to show otherwise.
He HAS been playing better. Good. Maybe he will continue to do so and play well in the playoffs. I certainly hope so.
But pointing to runs scored to indicate that he’s been good is just silly. He’s got several of the best hitters in MLB hitting behind him. Had he really been effective, he’d have scored many more.
I don’t think he’s a “bum.” But I do know that he’s been bad this year, and worry about the next two years.
The most beautiful words spoken this year, in my opinion, were “Melky Cabrera is our centerfielder.” Right then, I knew that Joe wasn’t a complete fool as some would believe. I knew that reality had shone through into his mind, and that he understood.