Posada’s Cooperstown season
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- September
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Jorge Posada is a go-to guy in the clubhouse. What I mean by that is if you’re doing a story on one of the pitchers, he is somebody you almost have to talk to.
Posada is intelligent, bluntly honest and has so much of a history with the Yankees that his comments always have meaning. As a beat writer, he is somebody I try and speak with almost every day because he has such a feel for what is happening with the team at that moment.
But when it comes to talking about the best season of his career, Posada doesn’t have much to say. He firmly believes that talking about how well you’re hitting will lead to four strikeouts the next day.
I tried to broach the subject yesterday and he smiled. “C’mon, man,” he said. “Don’t go there.”
But Posada is having an MVP-type season. He’s hitting .338 with 81 runs scored, 20 homers, 82 RBI and 38 doubles. It’s one of the greatest offensive seasons ever for a catcher.
Toss in the fact that he has worked with 29 pitchers this season and that the Yankees are headed to the playoffs and he’s clearly the best catcher in the American League.
“You know until you’re around him every day how good this guy is,” backup Jose Molina said. “He and Tony (Pena) are always working on some drill or going over something. He makes this team go.”
Look at it this way. The only catchers in the history of baseball with as many home runs, doubles and RBI in one season are Mike Piazza (1998), Pudge Rodriguez (1998), Pudge Fisk (1978) and Johnny Bench (1974 and ‘75). Only Piazza and Rodriguez hit .300 in those seasons.
This could be the season Posada played himself into the Hall of Fame. He’s a .278 career hitter with 217 homers, 855 RBI, three rings and five All-Star game selections.
The only catchers who can match those statistics are Piazza, Rodriguez, Ted Simmons, Javy Lopez, Yogi Berra, Gabby Hartnett and Roy Campanella.
Simmons never won the World Series. Lopez did once.
By the time these current Yankees are retired, they’ll have to build a new room at the Hall of Fame. Rodriguez, Jeter, Rivera, Clemens and Torre are in for sure. Posada is probable and Mike Mussina will get a lot of consideration.
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on Wednesday, September 12th, 2007 at 11:45 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
Let’s not forget the HOF’s new wing for Joba
And he shows no signs of slowing down.
Forget a new room or wing, they need to move the Hall of Fame to the old Yankee Stadium.
Jeter’s the captain, Posada’s the vice president. When it’s all said and done, people are going to look back at this run with awe. I just hope baseball writers don’t use the typical anti-Yankee bias against one of the clean and honest players in the game.
Man, that’s one induction ceremony I won’t be able to miss!
Perhaps one of Cashman’s best moves this season was getting Molina.
this gives us a real backup catcher to spell Posada and keep him fresh for the post-season.
Cashman caught flak for his bad off-season moves (igawa, no backup C, etc.) But give him credit for making the necessary, bold moves during the season (getting molina, bringing up Joba, DFA’ing myers, and cairo, trading proctor for betemit). non of these moves made headlines, but collectively they added up to a big difference.
too bad we lost shelly for the rest of the season. i hope that doesn’t come back to hurt us.
How brilliant does Cash look now with the two big off-season trades: RJ and sheff.
sheff is breaking down, already. and RJ is essentially done. if we had those two on our team, how happy would we be to get *ANYTHING* for them at this point? instead we got 6 (potentially) interesting prospects and a useful MLB reliever. Cash deserves a *TON* of credit for these two moves. He caught hell for it at the beginning of the season…now where are the naysayers?
Mel, what a beautiful idea!!
[Alas, the anti-Yankee bias would probably never allow such a thing, but I like your idea].
Shelley is definitely done for the year?
Maybe the Old Yankee Stadium can be the NY Yankees hall of fame? There’s enough history there for us to have our own HoF!
Pete
Great article. Its great to see the toughts of so many Yankee fans so ABEly articulated. Hip Hip Jorge!
I’d be extremely surprised if Mussina went into the HOF. He was good in an offensive era, but he won what one CY and never had a 20 win season.
Posada’s deserves to get in, but I wonder whether you can get in with numbers like that in an offensive era. Especially since he isn’t the best catcher of this generation. Its really hard to tell, but given that some writers display their anti-NY bias by voting Jeter 6th in the MVP voting last year, I’d be surprised if he got in.
Turn old Yankee stadium into a Hof, hold little league and highschool games and community activies there… I hope they figure something out for it..
Jorge Pasada,farm raised,not an import.The heart and soul of this team.Gets the job done. hip hip Jorge!!!!!
Posada has become a better player over the years. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that his son is alright now, he has a clear mind. He mentioned this at the start of the season, now he can put his full concentration on baseball. I’m happy for him, he and Arod have been our rocks this season.
Speaking of monument park, if Arod stays a Yankee and breaks all these crazy records will he get a plaque one day or a monument like Babe?
Wow…I can’t say that I ever considered putting Posada into a hall of fame discussion until this year. He’s at 1315 career hits – a low number, but only because he didn’t become a full-time starter until he was 28 years old. I don’t know if his stats will measure up down the line. I think he’ll definitely get a plaque and his number retired in Monument Park. But Posada as a HOFer? I just don’t know.
How did Shelley Duncan injure himself. It could not have happened while playing because he hasn’t played in awhile. Maybe they are sympathy pains he’s feeling for his brother.
Jeter could break the record for most career hits. Isn’t he ahead of the pace right now in his career?
Hip hip, Jorge!!
Funny, I was just having the same conversation with a Red Sox buddy of min discussing whether or not Posada and Varitek were worthy of the HOF. His conclusion was that both were borderline but did not merit entry. I was a little more sympathetic to Jorge’s chances, of course.
Oh, and Pudge’s 1998 campaign is most certainly tainted, being that he was on the juice and all.
I had the idea of turning Yankee Stadium into the real Hall of Fame years ago, when Barry Halper (a former minority owner of the Yankees) put his huge memorabilia collection up for sale. I think he got something like $50 million for it. Imagine that collection, plus some of the stuff in storage at Cooperstown and the Smithsonian, all on display at old Yankee Stadium, just across the river from Hoboken where baseball was really invented? Wow!
E-ROC,
Articles have said it was on a slide (or play?) in Toronto last month. Is there any plan to change that turf or move venues in Toronto. It’s inexcusable for Major League teams to have a surface that bad. You hear so many negative things about it.
Posada might be one of those borderline HOF guys, like Mattingly and O’Neill. Jorge would have to have another two big years, at least. Get over 1,000 RBI and approach 300 HRs. Let’s hope he does it as a Yankee. I doubt Mussina will make it. Other pitchers from his era are much better and more deserving. Maddux, Glavine, Clemens, Johnson. He’s just not in that class.
Umm Phil, if you compare Jorge to other catchers and don’t try and compare his numbers to other position players, Posada stacks up pretty well.
it was on a slide the last time we were in toronto
The Yankee Trio of Jeter, Posada, and Mariano will all make it.
Will Clemens go into HOF as a Yankee?
Maybe that’s what he and Steinbrenner discussed in the Spring (Clemens said that he spoke to Steinbrenner in the Spring about something but would not say what is was until after season)
“Posada’s deserves to get in, but I wonder whether you can get in with numbers like that in an offensive era. Especially since he isn’t the best catcher of this generation. Its really hard to tell, but given that some writers display their anti-NY bias by voting Jeter 6th in the MVP voting last year, I’d be surprised if he got in.”
i’m pretty sure Jeter finished 2nd.
Interesting that those you mention are four of the ‘old Yankees’ who came in with Torre. Jeter, Posada, Mariano and Bernie before the Cashman mishandling of his contract.
I am omitting Arod, because I hope and believe this is his last year with the Yankees. Mussina is a long shot, but if he can change some of his ways, he has a chance as either a Yankee or an Oriole. Roger will go in as a Red Sox player.
The Jeter, Posada, Mariano and Bernie foursome will be a subject for sportswriters for a long time. Four young men, not superstars, who played for the Yankees their whole careers and led the team to it’s greatest winning streaks under the managment of Joe Torre. And, during that time, there has never been a hint of drug use, off the field bad behaviour in the celebrity cluture of today or unprofessionalism. All four are quiet, but firm, leaders in the clubhouse leading by their example. We will never see their likes again, so enjoy each game – and haven’t we missed Bernie this year.
Ummm rbiz…where did I compare Posada to other position players? I just stated his hits total. Did I miss something?
Please lets stop saying we are heading to the post season until it is official. Thanks.
Yah, Posads close… But I agree with DesignatedBlogger..
Hes at 855RBI, 217HR and 1315 Hits right now.. The closer he gets to 1100RBI, 300HR and maybe 1600Hits the better.
“before the Cashman mishandling of his contract”
Are you talking about Bernie? How did Cashman mishandle his contract?
“Funny, I was just having the same conversation with a Red Sox buddy of min discussing whether or not Posada and Varitek were worthy of the HOF. His conclusion was that both were borderline but did not merit entry. I was a little more sympathetic to Jorge’s chances, of course.”
wow.
Varitek? for the BASEBALL Hall of Fame? in Cooperstown?
no.
not even close.
it’s embarrassing that someone would even think he was borderline.
Clemens has no say as to how he goes in. After the dibacle that was Dave Winfield and what cap would be on his plaque MLB changed the rules and it is the BBWA I believe or MLB who chose which cap is on the plaque. At this point in time I would say he would go in as a Red Sox although if he wins a WS again this year as a Yank and piptches well that could change
It is the HOF that actually decides what cap the player wears going in…they say they get the player’s input…but then they also state that their (HOF) decision is final.
Posada needs atleast 3 more good years (.280, 20 HR’s)
jeter = hof
mo rivera = hof
joe torre = hof
clemens = easy hof
a-rod = easy hof
you would have to compare the pitchers of moose’ generation to see if he gets in . its not so cut and dry lik the other players . i guess the same goes for posada . but posada is clearly the best offensive catcher of his generation .
I wonder if the committie would ever take into account the incredable amount of boo’ing that happenes to him when he walks back into Fenway.
I agree with DesignatedBlogger- I think Jorge’s a borderline like Mattingly. Granted, I think Mattingly should be in the hall, but then he is my favorite player. And Jorge’s probably my second favorite player, so I’d love for him to get in there, too.
Regardless, though, he should get a nice plaque in monument park, and a spot on the coaching staff if he ever wants it. Jeter gets all the credit for clutch performance and leadership, but Jorge’s been at least as influential, I think. The guy plays hard, and contributes a lot of those same “intangibles” that Jeter gets so much attention for.
Just look at how he’s handled the pitchers. There’s no stat to measure that, but to take all these new pitchers in stride, help the young guys transition, and still be such as offensive force is amazing.
I’m just glad Jorge is finally getting the attention he deserves. He’s been a huge force for the Yanks for years, and he deserves all the praise he’s getting.
Hmmm,
Yes, Jeter finished 2nd in the MVP voting last year. However, two writers, Joe Cowley (not the former player, the writer) from Chicago and a writer from Minnesota put Jeter 6th on their ballots.
It certainly made it tougher for him to win the award since Morneau wasn’t placed that low on any of the ballots.
It smacked of Anti-Yankee bias to me because, no matter what you think of Jeter or the Yankees, there is NO WAY he was the 6th most valuable player in the AL last year.
Posada for the HOF? Its certainly a possibility. I think he needs two more solid seasons.
If he can hit .270, 20 HR’s, 80 RBI for another two seasons, and win at least one more ring, he’s going to have the credentials to get in.
Especially since he is playing the toughest position (as a position player) to get in.
Moose isn’t a HOF. Nice career but, no 20 win seasons, no dominant playoff record, and no rings. Not enough to get into the HOF, IMO.
“i’m pretty sure Jeter finished 2nd.”
A writer named Joe Cowley (not the former pitcher)voted Jeter 6th last year.
As for Posada, I think he still needs another really good year or two to get in the HOF.
Re: Joan in Cheshire
“The Jeter, Posada, Mariano and Bernie foursome will be a subject for sportswriters for a long time. Four young men, not superstars, who played for the Yankees their whole careers and led the team to it’s greatest winning streaks under the managment of Joe Torre.”
Since when was Jeter not a superstar? He’s not only captain of the most famous Baseball team in the world, he’s one of the most famous faces in US sport.
I think that Roger Clemens will have some influence on the committee’s decison re: the cap.
For informational purposes here are some basic stats for all of the catchers already in the Hall. Jorge looks to be on the cusp, but certainly needs a few more good years to strengthen his case.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofstca.shtml
“Please lets stop saying we are heading to the post season until it is official. Thanks.”
you do realize that nothing we say on a blog will actually affect what happens, right?
hmmm, Jeter did finish second in the MVP voting overall last year. But I believe what SES84 said was in reference to one of the Chicago beat writers who inexplicably placed Jeter 6th on his ballot.
“A writer named Joe Cowley (not the former pitcher)voted Jeter 6th last year.”
ah, ok.
i misunderstood, sorry.
yes, i remember Cowley well. his voting provileges have been REVOKED b/c he is an idiot.
that was disgraceful.
mel-
Yah I think so too.. Even if he doesn’t contact them directly, I think you’ll hear him make some comments in interviews and such about the cap..
“but posada is clearly the best offensive catcher of his generation .”
that depends if you count Piazza as part of his generation.
It is sad that Toronto still has that type of turf. Look at Vlad Guererro. His knees are horrible because of playing on turf.
hmmmm, I know and you know that Varitek doesn’t stack up, but my boy has bought into the Fox hype about Varitek’s uncanny ability to handle a pitching staff and thinks that he deserves extra credit for that. I found it amusing that he wouldn’t concede that Jorge is the better offensive player. That’s what makes the rivalry so much fun.
Joan in Cheshire
How is Jeter not a superstar? Maybe his numbers don’t deserve superstar status, but his popularity certainly does. And I have heard PLENTY of stories about him of “bad behavior in the celebrity culture.”
That said, I give him a ton of credit for staying out of the (negative) spotlight. I can only imagine how difficult it is for him to give boring interview after boring interview where he basically says nothing – but he knows it’s what’s best given the NY media.
Actually, DMan, I think it’s something less public. Does Roger even care? I’d like to think so. I’d like to think that he really is a Yankee. I’m not naive, but he and Pettitte did come back. Yeah it was a lot of money, but any number or teams would’ve given them that.
The reason why I said that he’d be able to influence the committee (behind the scenes) is that he is such a presence in baseball. He’s a god amongst men. Overboard? Maybe, but it’s true. He really is Paul Bunyanesqe, larger than life. As much as the Boston fans (bitter revisionists) hate on him, it’s true. We’re seeing him in his twilight years, so it’s easy for cynics to remember he’s really one of the all-time greats.
“I agree with DesignatedBlogger- I think Jorge’s a borderline like Mattingly. Granted, I think Mattingly should be in the hall, but then he is my favorite player. And Jorge’s probably my second favorite player, so I’d love for him to get in there, too.”
Mattingly is my favorite too, but Mattingly is not a Hall of Famer. just didn’t play long enough.
there is no way i can make a case for Mattingly without my pinstriped glasses on.
and i’m not sure Posada isn’t a better player than Mattingly. there is a case to be made that he is.
Jeter is not only one of the most reconizable faces in the US, in the WORLD. I traveled Europe this summer and everyone knew who he was.
SJ and Bada Bing thanks for correcting Hmm on that. I clearly said some. Even though I think it might have been only one voterwho voted him 6th. I don’t think it would have mattered if the guy had voted Jeter 2nd, but there are clearly some voters who dislike NY. Jeter being the example of “overated” in their opinion. Not that I want to rehash the Jeter MVP discussion.
I’d expect a surprising number of voters to leave Jeter off their HOF ballots, which will be a travesty, but if that gets some guy from Miluakee or Chicago off than that’s ok by me.
I love Posada, and I hate that any good season these days has an element of suspicion for me. But I can’t help but wonder about him this year. How could he keep this pace up all year, and have a higher average (by far), higher OBP, higher slugging, than he EVER has, as a 36-year-old who has caught 130+ games for the past 8 years? Will motivation for a new contract do that much? Like I said, I hate to even have a doubt in my mind, but I would have a doubt about EVERYONE, except Jeter and maybe Mo.
Speaking of Cashman, this is the best interview with him I’ve ever read. It’s linked off NOMAAS:
http://www.wcbs880.com/pages/9.....tId=903120
“We will never see their likes again, so enjoy each game – and haven’t we missed Bernie this year.”
not at all. i miss him b/c i like him as a person, but the Yankees as a baseball team don’t miss him.
“I am omitting Arod, because I hope and believe this is his last year with the Yankees. ”
why do all these housewives who worship Jeter hate A-Rod?
why do some Yankee fans feel so threatened by the fact that A-Rod is a much better player than Jeter?
Jeter is going to the Hall of Fame. he is a great Yankee. the greatest Yankee SS in history.
but A-Rod is better and he wins more games for the Yankees than anyone else on the team. how can any real Yankee fan want to win less games next year by getting rid of A-Rod? doesn’t make sense.
hmmm- True. That darn back injury did The Captain in.
This is why I’m hoping he turns out to be a great manager, so he can pull a Torre and get into the Hall as a manager. It’s definitely the pinstriped glasses for me too, but whatever gets Mattingly into Cooperstown is good for me.
But I agree, Posada definitely has a stronger case than Mattingly did, especially with a couple more strong years under his belt.
You know, I can’t wait for the old-timers games when Bernie and Paulie and Donnie and Jorge can all line up together. There have been a lot of guys the last 10-15 years who have largely flown under the radar of baseball fans at large, but who are near and dear to Yanks fans hearts. Those guys are gonna get earth-shaking ovations.
“But I can’t help but wonder about him this year. How could he keep this pace up all year, and have a higher average (by far), higher OBP, higher slugging, than he EVER has, as a 36-year-old who has caught 130+ games for the past 8 years? Will motivation for a new contract do that much?”
Posada’s batting average on balls in play this year is an unsustainable .393.
he IS indeed hitting the ball hard b/c his line drive % is good, but his batting average is very high because he has been extremely hit lucky.
sometimes you just have good luck for an entire season and all your bloops fall in. look at that double he hit last night.
i wouldn’t read anything more into it. there is nothing “suspicious” about it at all. he’s hitting the ball well and having good luck as well.
should pay off handsomely for him.
Why doesn’t Toronto have grass? They do have a stadium that can open its roof.
“SJ and Bada Bing thanks for correcting Hmm on that. I clearly said some. ”
you did. i misread. sorry again.
Pete -
How about those cheaters up in Foxborough?
hmmm- ditto on A-Rod. The guy is the greatest player of his generation, and barring a horrible injury or an unprecedented decline, he’s destined to go down as one of the greatest players of all time.
I’ve certainly had a bias against new players at times- I hated Tino when he first showed up, purely because I missed Mattingly. But that always fades away once the player has a chance to establish himself. I don’t get how people can continue to want A-Rod out of pinstripes. The guy is responsible for 26% of Yankee runs this year, either by scoring them or knocking them in. Wanting him to leave is just madness.
If I had my way, A-Rod would play the rest of his career as a Yankee, and retire with a bunch of rings and a bunch of all-time records and a Yankee cap on his plaque in Cooperstown.
Jonah Keri: (1:01 PM ET ) hehe…
For the record, I’m a Jeter fan. If anything, he’s underrated offensively, the Maddux of hitting. And don’t even get me started on my Joba fetish. Drafted the guy in one of my leagues last winter and have been loving it ever since. Throw in my incessant Posada Hall of Fame touting (he’d get in if I had a vote) and I always crack up when Yankees fans claim bias.
On the other hand, no one was saying anything nice about the Yankees back in May when they were well under .500 and a million games out fo first…
Jonah Keri: (1:02 PM ET ) …oh wait, there WAS someone still on the Yankees bandwagon in May: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn.....ortCat=mlb
I still remember that Keri was the ONLY one who didn’t bail on the Yankees.
Posada’s season shouldn’t cause any suspicion.
He’s got the same BB and K rates as he has for the past few years, and actually less HR/AB than last year (and about the same as 05, and a lower rate than years before that). His isolated power is worse. The increase in OBP and SLG is solely due to the increase in average, which is due to a) a slight increase in his line drive rate, and b) a lot of luck. His BABIP is .389, which ranks 2nd in the majors.
I agree he has to stay, but paying for this season would be a big mistake. 2006 is what we should expect over the next couple years. That’s nothing to be ashamed – those numbers from a catcher are worth over $15M per season. I’d have no problem with a 2 year, $30M contract with a relatively easily-attainable option for a 3rd year. Or $40M over 3.
KurticusMaximus-
Heh yah I can remember resenting Tino quite a bit too. He had huge shoes to fill, that was no easy task.
I’ve raised the question of doubting how Posada could be putting this season together, too. It does seem like he’s getting a lot of bloop hits, and his luck is well deserved. But if a large part of it is that he’s motivated to win a new contract, how ok is that with you?? I would have thought he was a guy who would go all out regardless of his contract. ARod, too… it kind of burns me up that you can predict when a player will live up to his talent by looking at his contract.
Im here to say I was proven wrong on Giambi. He came through last night,when I was stating to put Betimet at first(eating crow while typing). I hope this is the beggining of a final 3 weeks tear.He can carry the team single handidly when he’s hot(A-rod like).
As far as saying Mattingly didnt make it so Posada shouldnt. I disagree. Mattingly was my favorite player growing up,but first base is one of the most demanding offensive position on the field. Unfortunately he couldnt stay healthy enough to extend his carreer. Posada has been one of the best hitting catchers since getting the starting spot. If he can pull off 275 hr 1000 rbi’s and a 270 avg. That would have to rank him as one of the top hitting catchers ever. I would say he’s in.
Clemens will go in as a Red Sox, period. Either that or the Blank Cap that some go with when the player does not like the Cap Logo the HoF picks for him…
Ditto on Posada, 300HR, 1000Rbi and 270 is a shoe in….
“It does seem like he’s getting a lot of bloop hits, and his luck is well deserved. But if a large part of it is that he’s motivated to win a new contract, how ok is that with you??”
read jon’s post above.
he’s not DOING anything different. he’s just having more hits fall in.
he’s not willing the extra hits to fall in b/c he wants more money.
Would you trade Melky,Kennedy and Horne for Santana(IF GIVIN A CHANCE IN THE OFFSEASON)? Offcoarse with an agreement of an extention.
“ARod, too… it kind of burns me up that you can predict when a player will live up to his talent by looking at his contract.”
this will be A-Rod’s 3rd MVP since he signed his contract 7 years ago. and he was probably robbed of 1-2 others in 2001 and 2002.
so he probably should have 4-5 MVPs in 7 seasons.
what are you talking about?
hmmm,
Not everyone here wants A-rod gone. In fact that’s the only person who hasn’t begged for the Yankees to secure A-rod at all cost.
There’s a lot of truth to what you said, but there was very little about A-rod that compelled you to root for him even when he struggled. He had this wall up and just seemed fake in his interviews.
Of course now that he’s superman everyone loves him. But he’s also finally having fun and his real personality has come out. Even if A-rod comes back down to earth (heaven forbid), I think he’s won back some of those who were turned off by him in the past. He’s already won back the most fickle, judgemental demographic of our society: the New York media. And that’s probably based partially on his change in personality/successful transition to playing in New York. If Alex was raking, but behaved like Barry Bonds, he wouldn’t be getting the media love.
Before you guys start flaming me, I don’t hate A-rod. Just realize that because you like someone because they’re the greatest thing since white bread doesn’t mean that everyone else does, too. There are other reasons besides Jeter for people not taking a liking to A-rod. And there are those who didn’t like A-rod for other reasons who now cheer for him because he’s someone you can champion for.
cc don’t be a hater. Posada has been a gamer his whole career.
SOS27- I think you misunderstood. I don’t think anybody said Posada shouldn’t get in because Mattingly didn’t. We were just comparing the two as both being borderline HOFers. I think most of us actually agree that Posada actually has a better chance than Mattingly to get in.
Jeter has more 200 hit seasons than any other shortstop in MLB history. he has a chance to get another one this year. He has a .318 career batting average and a chance to get 4000 hits. I think he’ll probably wind up around 3,700 but it depends on how much longer he wants to play. But it still seems like some people on here aren’t sure if he is a HOF’er. That is retarded.
A-Rod, Jeter, Torre, Clemons and Posada.
What about Nick Green?
How fast we forget….very sad. Very sad.
hmmm, jon, thanks for the numbers. I didn’t realize his BABIP was so high. That gives me something to latch onto.
This is just a bit of a personal observation and not that well articulated, but here it goes.
I don’t like any of the HOF arguments where we compare X player to Y player who is or isn’t in the HOF.
If we did it for inclusion than everyone only needs to be as good as the worst player in the HOF.
When we compare to a player who isn’t in the HOF, say comapre Posada to Mattingly or Joe Torre, then we have the argument of whether both players should be included as well. So the argument doesn’t get you anywhere unless you prove that player Y is appropriately excluded. If you can demonstrate that player Y is justly excluded then you may as well just directly show that player X can be excluded.
Of course this may be useful for dealing with the inevitable biases that exist in these sports conversations.
I’m not really sure what method I’d employ for these debates, but the 1 v 1 comparisons seem more like a rhetorical technique then a sound basis for evaluation.
“But it still seems like some people on here aren’t sure if he is a HOF’er. That is retarded.”
really? point to one person who ever said that.
If Posada signs a 3 year deal,how long do we keep him catching before moving him to first? He hasnt been throwing people out at the rate he did last year(not sure if its more of the pitchers fault than his). It is also a wear and tear possition. I say in 09 if we have someone in the minors ready at that time or by free agency.
Kurticus Maximus
I did miss understand the comment.
If Pettitte pitches for 3 more years, amasses 40 wins in that period as well as a couple more post-season wins, wins 1 more world series, don’t you think he would get a solid look as well?
240 wins, 20 (or more) post-season victories, 5 rings…
I would say so. There’s no Cy Young in there (friggin Hentgen), but he won 20+ twice and he was the epitome of a big-game pitcher.
Not sure if Jorge is HOFer yet or not. Another GREAT year or two like this & it is a no-brainer. I love the man & love to see him at the dish in a clutch situation. He is the GLUE & has improved so much as a catcher & is an ironman.
How is MARIANO NOT a SUPERSTAR. He is the single biggest reason the Yankees were dominant for so long. One of the best players in the game ever.
Of course I love DEREK. All the Intangibles. Does everything well, great baseball instincts, hustles all the time & is truly clutch. An ALL-TIME Yankee great, but let’s now finally give A-ROD his due as the best player in the game right now, & finally deserving of his mega-bucks. He has finally converted me this year. He’s showing a total game now, not just the HRs. Seems to have gained the respect, & possibly good will of his teamates. HOPE we can keep him, Jorge & Mariano next year.
KEEP JOBA in the BULLPEN FOREVER! Lets get back to the good old days when we NEVER used to lose a lead after the 6th or 7th!
No @ S.O.S.27. I’d wait until he hits free agency. For some odd reason, our pitchers seem to get injured all the time every year. So I think Kennedy and Horne are “needs”. We don’t need a “want.” Just my opinion.
According to Jay Jaffe’s JAWS system (a good measure for getting an idea if a guy is a Hall of Famer), Posada is some way off the standards of a HoF catcher. I’ve also included his Grey Ink, HOF Standards, and HOF Monitor scores compared to an average Hall of Fame player and he’s far off in those measures, too. If he makes it, it will be because of the teams he played for and the rings they won and not his own merits.
Posada (through 2006):
Career WARP: 70.4
Peak WARP: 43.9
JAWS: 57.2
Gray Ink: 17
HOF Standards: 31.9
HOF Monitor: 76.5
Average Hall of Fame Catcher:
Career WARP: 95.7
Peak WARP: 59.0
JAWS: 77.3
Gray Ink: 144
HOF Standards: 50
HOF Monitor: >100
“Before you guys start flaming me, I don’t hate A-rod. Just realize that because you like someone because they’re the greatest thing since white bread doesn’t mean that everyone else does, too.”
no, you are right.
it’s hard to deny that before this year A-Rod had a penchant for sticking his foot in his mouth.
but i don’t get how after watching all season, when A-Rod has been the engine driving this flawed team into the postseason, people could still say they hope he is gone next year.
to me that’s crazy.
I just tried to make a post with some different HOF metrics, but it doesn’t seem to be going through. Basically the jist of the post was that Jorge is some way off of the average HOF catcher. If he makes it, it will be be because he was on great Yankees teams that voters will remember.
Let’s see if this works.
Posada (through 2006):
Career WARP: 70.4
Peak WARP: 43.9
JAWS: 57.2
Gray Ink: 17
HOF Standards: 31.9
HOF Monitor: 76.5
Average Hall of Fame Catcher:
Career WARP: 95.7
Peak WARP: 59.0
JAWS: 77.3
Gray Ink: 144
HOF Standards: 50
HOF Monitor: >100
S.o.S.27b (re: moving posada to first)
That’s an awful idea. Posada’s value comes from being a catcher. a .280/20/80 season from a 1B is worth nothing, from a catcher it’s gold. That’s the reason the Braves HAD TO trade Salatamachia, for example.
Posada should be signed with every intention of keeping him behind the plate. Maybe the 2009/2010 years could have a relatively low base salary with incentives for games caught.
Of course that’s just a pipe dream, because some stupid team will offer him a large guaranteed contract, and the Yankees will pretty much have to match it.
Pettitte hasn’t had close to a Hall of Fame career either.
hmmm,
Yeah, I don’t know where that came from. When I first read that one, the first thing I thought was “Annie Savoy”.
Pettitte is still young enough to pad his stats quite a bit. If he pitches 20 years which is 7 years from now he could probably get to 300 wins. Especially if he managed to stay healthy enough and he went back to the NL. He would have to average about 14 wins a year and he could do it I think if he really wanted to.
Does anyone think Matsui should get these next two days off so that he can go into the weekend series fresh? He just doesnt look right. Tired? Hurt?or both. A couple days off could do the trick. Damon seems to be doing good in left field and have Betimet play short to give Jeters knee some rest as well. Jeter d.h.
Pettitte won’t get 300 wins and he was never dominating or great, merely very good and reliable. He’s not a Hall of Famer.
I think Pettitte, if his elbow holds up long enough, should put together the kind of career that is HOF worthy. I think people recognize that he’s been dominant and has come through so many times in big places. He can put together as many wins as Jim Palmer most likely and I think he could end up with a comparable Win %. He’s been consistently underrated throughout his career though, probably because he spent so much of it as Clemens’ sidekick, even though he has at times been, and is now, the superior pitcher. I think New York, Boston, and Houston writers will give him respect in voting for him.
Moose isn’t HOF worthy and neither New York nor Baltimore writers will push hard for him to get in.
Clemens is in as a Yankee I think. This is the only team he played for twice, he won his 300th here, won a Cy Young, won his rings. I think the case is now clear. Especially if he has strong outings in the playoffs this year.
As for Posada, I think if he has a couple more years that make people notice him, he should get in. I’d consider him as good as Gary Carter or Carlton Fisk ever were, especially if he keeps producing at a high level for a few more years. Varitek is not going to get serious consideration because the end is coming quickly for him. Adeptness at managing a pitching staff only gets you so far. Ivan Rodriguez is under heavy steroid and HGH suspicion. Taking that into consideration, Posada is the greatest AL catcher of his generation- maybe greatest catcher period of his generation. You might say that Piazza is in a completely different category than any other catcher because his defense is terrible and he was someone who would have been better as a career DH in the AL, since he really only provided offense. I think other than those three, you can’t really compare anyone to Posada with a straight face.
“Especially if he managed to stay healthy enough and he went back to the NL. He would have to average about 14 wins a year and he could do it I think if he really wanted to.”
Ray-While I agree that the NL is definately much easier on pitchers, Pettites only chance of making the HOF is padding his wins. His best chance of doin that is staying with the Yankees in the AL. Whether or not we think wins is a legit statistic, I’m pretty sure HOF voters think it will be.
I did some quick math, and Pettite has 162 wins over 306 (.529) gs for the Yankees in 10 seasons and 37 in 83 gs (.446) for the Astros over 3 seasons.
Obviously this is a small sample and some of these wins might have come out of the pen, but the short answer is that if Pettite wants to be in the HOF his only chance given his non-HOF peripherals is racking up wins and maybe post season sucess. His best chance of doing that is with the Yankees since they put out a competitive team every year.
While it may have just been a negotiating trick, I don’t think Pettite has any intention of pitching for another 7 years. Even if he did his career outside of the win total probably wouldn’t be that impressive, so he’d almost certainly have to get to 300 wins to get consideration.
Moose is far closer to a Hall of Famer than Pettitte. He was far and away better in both their prime seasons and has had a much better career.
I really don’t see Clemens going in as a Yankee. He pitched for the Red Sox for 12 years, only 6 as a Yankee.
He started with the Sox. And he was best with the Sox. Playing for Boston was where he became The Rocket. He had a 3.16 ERA with the Sox, and a 4.08 ERA with NY. He has 192 wins with Boston, and 79 with NY.
And he’s got 3 Cy Youngs with Boston, only 1 with NY.
Unless Roger himself asks to go in as a Yankee, I really don’t see any reason why he shouldn’t go in as a RS.
I agree with what most people seem to be saying about Jorge. He needs one or two more solid seasons and then he’ll be a lock to get in (not necessarily first ballot – but ultimately).
Posada will ultimately be seen as one of the mainstays of this current Yankees run at success. The consecutive Division titles and WS victories will look great on his resume. As he climbs the charts statistically, he will be seen as one of the best overall catchers to play in recent years – even if his defense is suspect at times. I think he still has two good years left in him at catcher and then perhaps another position or DH (I know it’s blasphemous but if not with us, he could get picked up somewhere else).
Moose is not a HOFer. If he played well this year and next, then perhaps he could be on the cusp but this year will hurt him. If he can’t turn it around – then he’ll be seen as a great player but he couldn’t sustain it enough.
If Pettite plays long enough, he could be a HOFer. Especially as a lefty. His post season credentials could help him out already.
Jeter and Mariano are first ballots. So are Clemens and ARod – but both aren’t necessarily Yankee HOFers. Clemens would probably prefer Yankees and if he plays a few more seasons with us, than perhaps things will change – but he’s either a Red Sox player or a blank one. Arod would need to play with us until he breaks Bond’s record. Or win a few World Series. This off season will probably determine what cap he wears.
As for Mattingly – there’s a great analysis on a blog I read back in the day: http://sportszilla.blogspot.co.....arade.html
“I think people recognize that he’s been dominant and has come through so many times in big places.”
Anthony what’s your definition of dominant?
Career 1.3 Whip?
Career 3.81 ERA?
6.6 K/9
2nd in the CY voting once?
No season where he was particularly dominant.
Outside of wins where Pettite got lucky to only pitch for good teams his numbers are mediocre.
There is also a perception that he’s come up in big spots and that might help him if he compiled wins, but his post season numbers aren’t particularly good despite perception.
“I think people recognize that he’s been dominant and has come through so many times in big places.”
Anthony what’s your definition of dominant?
2nd in CY voting once.
1.3 Career Whip.
3.81 Career ERA.
Besides for wins which are a fluky statistic (Andy has only been on good teams) Pettites numbers are above average, but in no way dominant.
While I have fond memories of him in big spots and so may the voters his 4 ERA in the Post Season isn’t that impressive either.
So Nolan Ryan went in as a Texas Ranger (where he only played for five years), when the stats say he should have gone in as an Angel. But he got his 300th win and 5000th K with the Rangers and he wanted to go in as a Ranger.
Clemens hates (or at least hated for a long time) the Boston Red Sox, but he won the WS twice with Yanks, got his 300th here, came back, and won a Cy Young. He loves being a Yankee and has always said he wants to be remembered that way.
“He started with the Sox. And he was best with the Sox.”
Kurticus I agree he should go in as a Red Sox, but I disagree that’s where he was at his best. I think Clemens was at his best in Toronto where he won 2 CYs in two years had Low ERAs in a high ERA era and was striking out people at a ridiculous rate.
I guess that is what some motivation, a splitter and working out (steroids/HGH???) can do for you.
I think a 3.81 career ERA and .640 career WP in a career played mostly in the AL East and being the most reliable piece of the greatest and latest baseball dynasty, especially if there are no more dynasties in the Wild Card era by the time he comes up for election, make him dominant. Obviously it’s a subjective term, but that’s my opinion on it.
I think Posada should probably be in the HOF. He is the greatest catcher of the last 10 years. But then again, Ron Guidry was arguably the best pitcher in the AL over a 10-year span and he didn’t make it. Maybe Posada will need to accumulate more of those counting stats like rbis and hrs and hits. It just doesn’t seem right when a lesser player like Biggio will make it easily into the HOF since he accumulated 3000 hits even though he was a below-average player for the last several years of his career. Then you have a guy like Posada who got a late start and so he won’t get to those numbers, yet he is clearly the superior offensive force. But it will be so much tougher for him to make it into the HOF.
As an aside, I hate when people point to all-star selections as something that shows a player belongs in the HOF. It’s misleading because lots of times guys are voted in to the all-star game just because of their past success, as was clearly the case with Ivan Rodriguez this season who is an awful offensive player these days. And even if you do actually “deserve” to be on the all-star roster, it’s just because you were one of the best players in the first half of the season. What about the second half? How about Turnbow’s year last season. His final numbers were terrible but he head a great first half so he made the squad. But saying that he is an all-star misleads you into thinking he had a good season when in fact he wasn’t very good. Then there are guys from the Royals or other lowly teams that make it since every team must have a rep. Mark Redman from last year comes to mind immediately. And Michael Young this year. Neither of those guys belonged.
Anyway sorry about rambling on because I know this doesn’t have much to do with Posada, but I just wanted to get that off my chest.
Time to take a bite out of crime.
SES84- Very true.
Anthony- The Hall tries to put people in with the team they are most identified with, and by that time Ryan has become practically synonymous with the state of Texas. And I think Clemens is still most identified with Boston.
Besides, like you said, Nolan pushed to get added as a Ranger. I’d imagine if Clemens asks, he’ll go in as a Yankee. But if he doesn’t, I think the Hall would stick a Boston cap on his plaque.
“Mattingly is my favorite too, but Mattingly is not a Hall of Famer. just didn’t play long enough. ”
for what it’s worth, why is Kirby Puckett in and Mattingly not?
“why do all these housewives who worship Jeter hate A-Rod?
why do some Yankee fans feel so threatened by the fact that A-Rod is a much better player than Jeter?”
so hilarious, yet so true…
also hilarious is that sox fans still try to put Varitek in the same sentence as Posada… You think Theo would make a Varitek for Posada trade? In a heartbeat, and he’d probably have to throw in some prospects.
“for what it’s worth, why is Kirby Puckett in and Mattingly not?”
mostly b/c he played CF and Mattingly played 1B.
also, i don’t think Puckett should have been a 1st ballot HoFer.
“You think Theo would make a Varitek for Posada trade? In a heartbeat, and he’d probably have to throw in some prospects.”
Saucy, Totally agreed. I can’t find any statistics of any sort to support that Tek is as good as Posada. Posadas Career OBPS is 65 pts higher than Tek and Posada leads in all the compiler stats.
While Posada’s defensive value is debatable and certainly fluctuates from year to year tek is so bad at catching that he is hopeless at catching Wakefeild.
I admit that Tek is a “leader” and gets a silly C they stole from the Bruins Posada also plays that role so I don’t really see much advantage. All this being said Tek is an excellent player and he is deservedly loved by Sox fans.
Peter: Excellent story! It’s great to see Jorge Posada having such a phenomenal season. He is class act.
“How is MARIANO NOT a SUPERSTAR. He is the single biggest reason the Yankees were dominant for so long. One of the best players in the game ever.”
agreed. meant to point that out earlier when others pointed out that jeter IS a superstar…
“Does anyone think Matsui should get these next two days off so that he can go into the weekend series fresh? He just doesnt look right. Tired? Hurt?or both. A couple days off could do the trick. Damon seems to be doing good in left field and have Betimet play short to give Jeters knee some rest as well. Jeter d.h.”
i could agree with that. Matsui needs a day or two. He reminds me of an early season Abreau the way he’s swinging and missing.
“Clemens is in as a Yankee I think.”
me too.
“Ivan Rodriguez is under heavy steroid and HGH suspicion. Taking that into consideration, Posada is the greatest AL catcher of his generation- maybe greatest catcher period of his generation. You might say that Piazza is in a completely different category than any other catcher because his defense is terrible and he was someone who would have been better as a career DH in the AL, since he really only provided offense. ”
probably right on Piazza being better suited for an DH role, but he was catching and taking the physical abuse of an everyday catcher while putting those numbers up (regarless of how well he caught defensivly, it’s still a lot of wear and tear). it’d be interesting to see what kind of numbers he’d put up as a dh and without the catcher-physicalabuse… also, like pudge, he has had some steroid suspicion as well…
Jorge Posada Career OPS+ 125
Jason Varitek Career OPS+ 105
Enough said.
“Jorge Posada Career OPS+ 125
Jason Varitek Career OPS+ 105
Enough said.”
Varitek isn’t close to Hall of Famer though, so I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove.
“I think Posada should probably be in the HOF. He is the greatest catcher of the last 10 years.”
Pudge Rodriguez was about a billion times better than Posada, as was Piazza.
By the way, can we stop giving writers more power by acting like being a first ballot Hall of Famer means something. There isn’t a wing for first ballot Hall of Famers at Cooperstown because the distinction is something meaningless created by the voters. DiMaggio, Berra, and Ford weren’t even voted in his first time on the ballot.
um to whoever said ‘if Pettitte pitches 20 years’… Pettitte almost didn’t pitch this year. I HIGHLY doubt he’s going to pitch another 7.
AGreed — not a HOF guy… but definitely a Yankee name that fans will remember for a long time. He defines gamer and playoff reliable. And he’s certainly one of the Faces of the Yankee Dynasty with Jeter, Mo, Bernie, & Jorge.
Bosco, i don’t think anyone mentioned Tek being a HoFer, but you will hear plenty of RS fans claim he’s as good as if not better than Posada, and that’s just laughable…
Why Posada is not a Hall Of Famer:
1. He’s never won a Gold Glove whereas Ivan Rodiriguez has won a dozen in both leagues (I’m guessing he’ll win a 13th this year). His defense has improved the past few years, but too late at 34-35.
2. Barring a complete offensive collapse, this year will mark the first time Posada has finished with a season BA over .300. His previous high was .287 in his first full season (2000), one of only two seasons he’s smacked > 25 HR. He’s hit only 30 HR & driven in 100 runs once in the same year (2003, the only time he’s finished in the top 10 in A.L.M.V.P. voting to I-Rods 4X finishing in the top 10 in that, hits, and BA).
3. Lifetime .277 BA. Good for a catcher, but other catchers have higher ones.
4. Only 8 solid seasons. Mattingly had 6 (1984-89) with an A.L.M.V.P., A.L.M.V.P. runnerup season he would’ve been A.L.M.V.P. in if not for Roger Clemens, 9 Gold Gloves, .307 lifetime BA despite his 1990 on career, 7 straight games with a homerun and 6 grandslams in 1987, captain of the team.
5. I-Rod buries him defensively and Mike Piazza was a much better hitter.
6. Posada couldn’t touch prime Piazza who as a Met was head-and-shoulders better than Posada. Piazza not Pedro changed the culture of the Mets from losers to winners and led the Mets charge to the World Series. Even him making the last out of the World Series was scary. How can Posada be a H.O.F. when the guy across town was better than him 1998-2002?
6. If you admit Posada to the H.O.F., you have to admit Bernie Williams.
7. Not enough full seasons even if he plays 2 more for a decade’s worth.
8. Never won an M.V.P. award whereas I-Rod was the 1999 A.L.M.V.P. and the 2003 N.L.C.S.M.V.P.
Just because Posada has been the only catcher worth a sh it besides I-Rod (Joe Mauer hasn’t played enough yet but he’s off to a great start) the last 5 or so years after Piazza’a decline doesn’t mean he should gain entry into the Hall Of Fame.
Posada is the Bernie Williams or Don Mattingly of catchers:
very good but not good enough for the H.O.F.
In the discussion of who is or isn’t a HOF guy, it’s useful to note what gets people votes. It seems pretty clear to me that the writers who cast HOF votes want, at a minimum, someone who is a really great player and who lasted a long time.
I’m not sure I like the fact that people need to accumulate big career stats to get in the HOF, but that does seem to be the way the voting goes. If Santana were to have a bunch of mediocre 14 win seasons that got him to 300 wins, he’d have a much better chance than if he won 1 or 2 more Cy Youngs but then his arm fell off and he was out of baseball.
There’s a lot of other things we could debate, but I think it’s safe to say that Posada needs to pad his career stats some more before he’s in the running (a couple more big years as a number of people have said here). Mussina and Pettitte are nowhere near HOF criteria based on career stats of pitchers who recently did and didn’t get in.
If Tek goes into the HOF it should be with his mask on
Bottom line is this:
I-Rod buries Posada defensively thus was a better all-around player. I-Rod is a career .303 hitter.
Piazza buried Posada offensively.
B.t.w. what has Posada done in the postseason besides a key double in the 2000 World Series and one vs. Pedro in Game 7 of the 2003 A.L.C.S? Nothing really stands out.
Jorge is the Ted Simmons of the modern era -very good, but not good enough for the Hall. The ONLY chance he has is a Gold Glove, an A.L.M.V.P., and a batting title, realistically done in any 2 years after this one, and even that might not be enough to get him in.
I think Joan in C ought to give up making dumb responses related to baseball and the Yanks. Go back to playin with your Barbies!
I’m not sure Posada has done it for long enough to build up the counting stats that Hall voters look for, and it doesn’t help him that he’s never done real well in MVP voting or had a good defensive reputation.
But when you consider that Pudge’s stats were piled up in the explosively hitter-friendly Texas atmosphere, I strongly believe that if you match up Posada’s best seasons with Pudge’s, Jorge comes out ahead. If Pudge gets into the Hall and Jorge does not, it’ll have to be based on defense and longevity (assuming Posada doesn’t turn into the next coming of Carlton Fisk).
As Yankee fans, we’ve been utterly spoiled by having the best offensive catcher in the league behind the plate for us, practically unnoticed.
i think i have a good way of re-phrasing this whole situation with a better question:
In the history of baseball, how many players with FOUR world series championships are NOT in the HOF? …any position, any team?
I’ll bet there’s not many, especially the caliber of posada.
Posada’s not a Hall Of Famer,
I agree with you, but please don’t use Batting Average and Gold Gloves as measures of offensive and defensive skill. It just makes you look like an idiot.