A year later, Dice-K rolling snake eyes
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- September
- 14
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It was about this time last year we started hearing about Daisuke Matsuzaka. Remember? He throws an unhittable gyroball. He’s one of the best pitchers in the world. He will change the balance of power in the Major Leagues.
The Red Sox bid $51 million for his rights than signed him to a six-year deal worth $52 million that included incentives for all the Cy Young Awards he would win. His plane trip from California to Boston to sign the contract was literally followed minute-by-minute by Boston television stations.
Now he’s 14-12 with a 4.44 ERA. He’s about as good as Jamie Moyer, Adam Wainwright or John Maine. Sure, he’s sixth in the league in strikeouts but he’s also sixth in walks. He’s pitching against the Yankees tonight and it’s not a good matchup for the Red Sox.
But what’s really troubling for Boston is that Matsuzaka is getting worse, not better. He is 1-4 with a 9.57 ERA in his last five starts. He throws mostly fastballs and like Kei Igawa, he has learned that the umpires here have no time for off-speed pitches high in the strike zone.
If history is any guide, Matsuzaka will not get much better. Japanese starters who switch to the majors have tended to have their best seasons early in their careers. That’s what happened with Hidei Nomo, Kaz Ishii, Hideki Irabu and others.
Is Matsuzaka different? Nobody knows. His defenders hope so. But these are largely the same people who hyped him in the first place. He turned 27 on Thursday. He probably is what he is at this point.
In the great tradition of Boston players, Matsuzaka has started to blow off reporters. It’s a matter of time before the media up there turns on him and the sports radio jackals call for him to be traded.
Boston may well have paid $103 million for a No. 3 starter. But Yankee fans shouldn’t crack jokes, their team dropped $46 million on Igawa and he spent most of the season in the minors.
One thing is certain. Whoever the next “great” pitcher is from Japan isn’t going to have teams in a bidding war.
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on Friday, September 14th, 2007 at 2:03 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
You know “Bawston” fans will tear him apart if he loses this weekend. They turn on their players quickly
In the words of the very funny (and very wise, in this case) Jerry Seinfeld:
“Ah, that’s a shame.”
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
Peter,103 million, The best thing the Yankees didn’t do this season.
Catya,
Yankee plans usually do as well a la A-Rod 2006.
I was sad when the Yankees didn’t bid enough at first.Now it’s the best decision Cashman made. Hind sight being 20/20
of course.
Their spirit is nearly broken.
Gagne is the on the back of a milk carton.
http://tinyurl.com/2h3rtg
Keep on them – Sweep ‘em into the trash heap.
26 world champion ships 39 pennants a host of division wins.
The place were legends are made!!!!!!Yankees
Well done Peter. When I read this offseason that the “eminet” signing of the great Dice-K fell through after Boston bid 51 million, of course my first thought was “No, thanks”, followed by, “man, Boston is desperate”.
Much to my chagrin we signed Igawa weeks later…
At least Japan is pretty good at producing star lefty-hitting outfielders with eccentric personalities…
and of course, “eminent” is spelled “eminent”.
I’d still rather have Matsusaka than Igawa. Even with the extra 50 mil price tag. This is Matsusakas first year in the AL, a whole different beast from what he’s used to playing.
One thing people forget is that he’s 26, he’s entering his prime, he’s still got a good chance to become a Top Flight starter in this league. You can’t say that about Kei Igawa.
Catya, Cashman turned around and spent 50 million on Kei Igawa. I don’t know how you can be praising him.
Sure it’s not 100 Million but Kei Igawa looks to be a non factor for the Yankees this year and his future does not look bright.
Not good, not good at all.
Yankees will trade you Igawa for laptop and pedroia lowell
Vs. Yankees this season Matsuzaka: 6.98 ERA, 19.1 IP, 19 H, 8 BB, 16 K, 3 HR
Oh and one more important thing.
If the Yankees had actually won the bid for Matsusaka, Phil Hughes would of never been rushed to the Majors Leagues.
You can put THAT on the board!
Global Warming
I’m not “praising” Cashman just saying that a 46million mistake is better than 103million. We know Cashman has made his share of mistakes.
Daisuke Matsuzaka is Japanese for Bill Buckner
Phil Hughes was coming next year anyway! So he’s early.
Smart move. He appears to be ready, NOW!
Pete,
Couldn’t this have waited until after Friday’s game? I’m really superstitious. If he shuts us down, it’ll put him back into the good graces of Beantown.
Go, Andy. Go, Yanks.
MEL
come on guy “cowboy UP” Yankees are great!Their on a mission.
Pete,
I absolutely 100% disagree with you on your last note.
As long as their are billionaire morons, there will be bidding wars.
I’ll bet the Yankees won”t do it again!
Call me crazy but I think Igawa is going to be effective for the Yankees in some capacity.
I think with the farm system developement, Igawa will be a solid 4 starter maybe 3. Look at what they’ve done with these young guns that are here helping us out now.
Bobby V. was right….
Months before the Dice-K hype machine got rolling and any bids on his services were offered, I remember listening to a Bobby Valentine interview by Michael Kay in which Valentine–whose team in Japan had faced DK several times–thought Dice-K would be pretty good, but likely only projected as a solid #3.
Apparently, he saw something that most scouts and The Genius that is Theo Epstein, missed.
P.S. Peter, you’re doing a great job here….keep it up!
xryanx, you’re crazy.
I can understand the desire for Igawa to be good, but Matsuzka’s got more than twice the upside. I’ll take Dice-K over Mussina, thanx (Moose costs more against the cap, to cherry-pick a benchmark).
Global Warming,
He’s only 26, yes. But how many 26 year olds having been losing velocity on their fastball?
I can’t wait to see Matsuzaka get pounded by the Yankess tonight.
I meant “the Yankees”
I agree with the main point of this post.
But using the comparison with Moyer makes no sense at all. Moyer is a lefty in his mid 40’s who should have retired some time in the last couple of years and no longer hits close to 90 MPH with anything. Comparing that to Dice-K is absurd. Matsuzaka is much much much better than Jamie Moyer right now. It’s not even close.
Pete
Have you read this artical titled “Chien-Ming Wang, Occasional Ace” by Megdal in the nyobserver？
In my opinion, Megdal’s contention is rigorous and unfair.
Do you have any comment？
I’m actually a fan of Dice-K. I just think he’s tired. The MLB is a little more rigorous than the Japanese League. He’s pitching on shorter rest than he’s used to doing. It doesn’t help to have Francona making throw in the 120s almost everytime he pitches. I’d still take those stats if were on Yankees. He’s in good health, which always a good thing.
One of the solutions is to develop talented young Asian prospects within the farm system before they join they any professional baseball team in Asia. A great example will be Wang. He was not was not being consider as an ace on the national team in Taiwan when he was young. Dodgers pitcher Hong-Chih Kuo and Chin-hui Tsao were the ace during that time. Yankees organization acquired Wang before any professional team in Asia made the move. As a result, Wang was not over used and is not a finished product, too. Give Yankees organization and it’s scouts in Asia the credit of identifying and investing on Wang’s talent. It pays off and is working so far.
Today we have a very good chance to start another wining streak because Andy is on the mound. Maybe Godzilla will give Dice-K a lesson by cracking the ball out of the park. Let’s go Yankees!!
Matsuzaka survived longer in the majors than Igawa because he’s got a better fastball. Igawa needs his offspeed stuff to get through lineups. Both guys need to get their other pitches working if they want to be successful in the majors.
“No bidding war”: the players in consideration, Kosuke Fukudome (outfielder), Hitoki Iwase (relief pitcher), Koji Uehara (until last season Yomiuri’s ace, now their closer), are all veterans who turn into free agents. No posting fee necessary.
Hey Pete.
Obviously, I’m one of the people who was and has been hyping Daisuke. What he’s failed to do against the Yankees goes a long way towards his struggles this season. The other factor is the walk totals. If you simply get the walks under control, you reduce the ERA significantly. The win total is deceptive, as it always is. Matsuzaka has been unfortunate enough to be started against the ace of opposing ballclubs on many occasions and has performed brilliantly.
If you’ve actually watched him on more than one or two occasions, you see the talent translating just fine for 5-6 innings. The big inning is what has hurt him. Ask opposing batters about how good he is. I expect to see him put up an amazing year in 2008. I think Josh Beckett is a perfect example of how hard the adjustment is to the AL, and Matsuzaka is doing it while juggling a new way of life. I’ve seen him for many years and this is a guy who will adjust. He’s that good and he’s that competitive.
It’s funny to me that all the “told you so” crowd is coming out now when he’s struggled for 3 starts and seen his numbers inflate. When he had a mid-3s ERA and a 125 ERA+ a few weeks ago, no one was saying boo.
Jimmy1138–I’m a big fan of Kosuke Fukudome. He’ll turn out to be another Abreu, IMO. Good patience and gap power. I like Koji Uehara, too. I’d put him in the ‘pen.
to Taiwan Yuanban Lee,
I know what you are talking about. Everyone is entitled to their believes. In baseball, everyone has an opinion and may be bias not to mention the “experts” in baseball. There are lost statistics and records of a team or a player in MLB and those experts are good in manipulating or tweaking it to support their points. Don’t take it too hard. Like our captain Jeter says that Yankees don’t play baseball on paper. Those experts can analyze the data all they want but they can’t control the results on the field. Wang has a very good chance to prove Megdal was wrong on Saturday. But, Andy will get the chance to shut down Boston first today. Let’s cheer for Andy first today. Let’s go Andy! Let’s go Yankees!
To E-Roc and Jimmy1138,
Kosuke Fukudome, oh man. Dude,the home run he hit in WBC for Japan’s win over Korea is priceless. I still can remember it. He is a power hitter. How do you guys compare him to Matsui since you guys know him so well?
I have lots respect of Dice-K base on what he had achieved in Asia not just Japan. He pretty much dominated Asia in lots of the international games. To judge Dice-k’s performance in one season maybe is not fair. I will wait and see how he pitch next year to make my decision.
CMFeng–I just read a lot of articles about him and other players. The only time I’ve seen him play is during the WBC. But u can look at certain statistics to determine how he might fair against MLB pitching. Mike Plugh knows a lot about the Japanese players. here are some websites:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....-on-k.html
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....-on-1.html
http://www.ueharawatch.blogspot.com/
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/....._on_k.html
http://japanesebaseball.com/players/index.jsp
Thanks for the link.
I am not familiar with the Japanese player. I also find some interesting stories about Yuki Saito and and Darvish on the same place
This is what I found about Koji Uehara.
http://ueharawatch.blogspot.com/
http://www.canyonofheroes.blogspot.com/
hi, Mike Plugh,
I was looking for information about Koji Uehara and Kosuke Fukudome and ran into your blog. I post your link here without informing you. Sorry. I apologize for any inconvenience.
IMO Daisuke had some success this season because he has decent stuff and pitches like a more conventional MLB pitcher. He has other hard stuff he can throw for strikes, but his fastball is his best pitch, he throws it frequently and for strikes, and hitters respect (or used to) his fastball. In contrast, Igawa pitches backward, with a “show me” fastball to set up the off-speed stuff which are his best and most frequently thrown pitches, not for strikes but to get swing-throughs. But Iggy was in the wrong place at the wrong time, being in a rotation where a number of other starters went down to injury, putting enormous pressure on him as a starter and raising the stakes and expectations.
When the US hitters saw Igawa couldn’t get the high strike they hunted his off-speed stuff. Iggy tried to throw his breaking stuff for strikes because he couldn’t get strikes with his fastball. Igawa probably never threw a lot of strikes with his breaking stuff in Japan. So, when he tried to throw the breaking stuff for strikes he started hanging the breakers and got hit hard. The death blow was when the Yankees lost their other starters to injury and then (understandably) got all over Iggy to get him to throw fastball strikes lower in the zone. They started aggressively adjusting his mechanics and that destroyed his confidence and his long established style of pitching. The rest is history.
Iggy is no doubt a very proud athlete who is used to success. To fall flat on his face in a business where he doesn’t speak the language and isn’t acclimated to the culture must have been very hard. But if they can teach him to get a fastball strike lower in the zone, he can become a more traditional MLB lefty junkman and be a valuable commodity even though he’ll never overpower hitters. Don’t write him off yet.
You may find this interesting on Carlos Zambrano & Daisuke Matsuzaka:
http://www.baseball-reference......chives/284
by signing dice-k the red sox have opened up their share of the japanese market . the deal will pay for itself .
That was a good look @ Steve Lombardi. Everybody has ran on Dice-K this year. We should do the same.
That’s not true. Marketing studies have shown the Red Sox will have little impact on the Japanese market.
They already sell out all their games. Unlike the Yankees (which have a number of season ticket and travel packages available to japanese customers), ticket sales don’t move at all because of the Dice-K signing. Hideki Matsui has sold a lot of tickets at Yankee Stadium over the years. It was one major byproduct of his signing.
As far as merchandise, after a brisk start, its leveled off in Japan. Even if merchandise sales stayed at its earlier pace, it still isn’t that much of a financial windfall for the Red Sox because that money is part of the revenue sharing pool.
Bottom line, it was just a baseball signing. Its not going to gain any more traction than that for the Red Sox.
From a baseball perspective, he is overrated. He isn’t the next Pedro. He isn’t going to revolutionize the game and that was some of the stuff we heard when he was signed.
He’s a decent #3 pitcher on a good team for a 100 million bucks.
His future? Nobody knows. Traditionally, Japanese starting pitchers have declined in performance from 27-32.
Will it be the case with Dice-K? We shall see.
However, to call his first season a “success” with the Red Sox, is really pushing the hype envelope. He’s two games over .500 on a team that’s 31 games over. Not exactly 100 million dollars worth of pitcher.
He will never end up with a great nickname like the one Steinbrenner gave Hideki Irabu.
Why don’t Boston players want to talk to the CHB?
Haha, great title for this blog entry
Gyroball = fluke/fake/bogus/. The hitters grapevine had Matsuzaka figured out early as soon as they saw his biggest weakness. His pitching style and demaenor changes with runners on base.
I’ll reserve judgement on Dice-K. It’s his first season in the MLB and he isn’t exactly horrible.
I watch almost everygame throughout the season, but for some reason I am just so very freakin’ pumped for this game tonight. I cant wait to get out of work wooo!!
I think im going to head over to the yanks clubhouse on 5th and buy so stuff at lunch.
This series is so big. My adrenline will be pumping, im sure.
now this is an interesting breakfast debate. how good is matsuzaka? well. his record says he’s about league average. is 103 million a lot for league average?
of course,the yankees are getting league average out of clemens for a prorated 30 million.
the real value this year is what matsuzaka and clemens do in big games and in the playoffs. do they become a tipping point? they were signed to get their team over the top. so the jury is still out on both.
i agree with murphydog that igawa still has potential despite the fact this year was a disaster. there was’t that much difference between the two in japan and igawa was caught up in the worst possible start for the whole team. sj44 says he’s a decent #3 which is what i called him after watching him the first few games when it was obvious he didn’t have the velocity that was advertised. i said then he was a a 3a and igawa was a 3b. my bad on igawa.so far.
mike plugh came out early in the year championing matsuzaka and encouraging bringing up hughes quickly. those projections show the difficulty in projecting pitching based on what players do at other levels and in other countries. until a pitcher does it in the american league east you really don’t know how good he is.
beckett’s poor first year was a by product of pitching differently because of the blister problem. i think matsuzaka is what he is. he doesn’t throw that hard. he’s got a lot of mileage on him. he would have been a good signing on igawa money. as it is at 103 million,i’m sure the red sox would like to have their money back to invest in young pitching in the draft.
I didn’t know of this blog at the time, but I told my co-worker and fellow Yankee fan Ed that Dice_K would be 15-10 with a 4.50 ERA this year. Looking at his stats from Japan, he was good but not say, Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax or Steve Carlton good. So I never really understood the hype. If he wasn’t dominant in Japan, what made them think he would be in MLB. I think the Sox saw this as an opportunity to make it up to their fans over blowing the A-Rod signing. Remember, in the process of screwing up that deal they alienated and eventually wound up trading their most popular player (Nomar).
Conversely Rich, he has also gotten a lot of run support in games he didn’t pitch well in……such as his a couple of his Yankee starts and a couple of his starts against teams such as Baltimore and Seattle.
I’m from the Bill Parcells School of Analysis. You are what your record says you are.
He is 14-12 with an almost 4.50 ERA. That’s #3 starter results.
He’s not changing the game, he’s not the “next Pedro”, and he is trending downward right now.
Its all we have to go on at this time. I would bet, in their private moments, the Red Sox were expecting more out of him this year.
Randy is correct. If he pitches well in the post-season, it won’t matter how his regular season turns out. However, if he doesn’t, and the drumbeat starts about just how good he really is, then he gets the “Boston Treatment” from the fans and media.
If that happens, we will see just how good he really is because, when the fans and media turn on you in Boston, it ain’t pretty.
Dice-K is a “Fat Toad” wannabe.
And from now on theres the whole debate of who makes the adjustments..
In the future, does Dice-K make adjustments and become a better pitcher?
Or, do hitters study the film and scouting reports from this year and he gets worse/not any better
Like Pete said, the trend has been for the second one to happen.
You know what really gets under my craw… these post season commercials with freakin’ Dane Cook. Bring back Tommy Lasorda and the organ playing little girl!
“It’s funny to me that all the “told you soâ€? crowd is coming out now when he’s struggled for 3 starts and seen his numbers inflate. When he had a mid-3s ERA and a 125 ERA+ a few weeks ago, no one was saying boo.”
ERA by month:
April – 4.36
May – 5.22
June – 1.59
July – 3.62
August – 4.45
September – 16.88
you are making it sound like he has only had 3 bad starts.
ERA by opponents:
ARZ – 3.00
ATL – 3.38
SDP – 1.50
SFG – 0.00
KCR – 1.29
OAK – 2.57
TBD – 3.42
CLE – 4.26
SEA – 4.33
DET – 4.50
TOR – 5.18
CHW – 5.40
NYY – 6.98
BAL – 8.38
it looks to me like he’s dominated inter-league and some of the weak hitting AL teams and been pretty mediocre against the stronger teams.
that said, i’ve watched him pitch. he has talent. and given Boston’s financial situation, they can easily afford him and the money won’t stop them from doing anything else.
so i wouldn’t call him a “mistake”. not at all.
he was over-hyped, but he will still be an asset for them, he’s just not going to be that #1 starter he was made out to be.
Thank god he is a bust, or we would be 10 games out not 5.5
I think it may be a little to early to write of Dice-K. He’s been terrible lately, but it’s a little different this year then last- longer season, less rest, and the AL East may be a little tougher than Japan. I’m pretty sure all of NYC was ready to write of Beckett last year too and look how that turned out. We won’t know until next year how the whole Dice-K thing will work out.
“by signing dice-k the red sox have opened up their share of the japanese market . the deal will pay for itself .”
this is a myth for both Matsuzaka and for Matsui.
all MLB merchandise sold in Japan is split 30 ways. the television revenues are split 30 ways.
like SJ said, Fenway is sold out every game anyway, so they get no marginal ticket sales increase.
there is SOME additional money to be made, like selling signage in the stadium which both the Yankees and now the Sox do. the Yankees get a little additional revenue from Japanese tourists buying tickets at Yankee stadium.
but the whole “pays for himself” meme is a myth.
Forget Matsuka, if Julio Lugo and JD Drew were not absolute disgraces, DISGRACES, the Yankees would be 15 out and the Redsox would be IMO a lock for the World Series
All about just getting into the playoffs, if the Yankees hitters are on and their pitchers continue this recent trend, they have as good a shot as anyone
But JD Drew and Julio Lugo – thank god for them – THANK GOD
2 LOSERS
“i’m sure the red sox would like to have their money back to invest in young pitching in the draft.”
The Red Sox have no shortage of money when it comes to the draft. Their problem is that they have drafted horrendously over the past few years. Their top picks from 2006, nearly all of them, have already failed miserably. Jason Place, Daniel Bard, and Jonathan Hovis are all still in A-ball…and Hovis is the only one who is doing decently. And their 2007 draft, well, let’s just say they would have gotten Rick Porcello if it weren’t for JD Drew.
We mine as well get or arguments about Dick K out now, because I have a feeling this place is going to be crawling with trolls tonight.
“he certainly hasnt dominated, but his recent rough stretch has killed his stats.”
Moose was doing pretty good for himself before he ran into three bad starts.
The problem with Matsuzaka is that he has had zero recent good starts. A good start by him, tonight, would go a long way towards calming the panic. Another bad start, though, would just cement the perception.
13-3 the rest of the way, will look easier as it will by 10-3 after this weekend……….
NINETY SIX and SIXTY SIX…..
Boston will SHOW ALL this weekend just how much closer they are to a sub .500 team than a 36-15 team ( a team they actually never were, but a record that they once had )
GO YANKEES……BASH THE DICE-MAN tonight !
hey rich ,
3.76 era aint bad at all .
I like your style Uncle Vito!
Ironically, had Matz been a Yankee, 5-6 of his losses (which were of 2 runs or less) would have been wins.
The expectations for Dice-K were absurd, as was the investment in his services. Unless he was 20-3 with an ERA around 2.00, he would HAVE to be considered a dissapointment in relation to the hype.
Dude,
Yea, well, that just like your opinion, man…
This probably doesn’t belong on this thread, but what the heck.
Britton giving up the run in the 9th may actually have been a blessing in disguise. Given who were available in the bullpen last night and the general ineffectiveness of our offense last night and we were playing on the road, chances are not good that we would have won in XTras. If the game went into extras, whether we won or lost, we would have had one used up tired team heading to Boston. If we had lost in extras that would have made it really bad. Also, Mo is available for atleast 2 games and probably all 3 games in Boston because he did not pitch yesterday.
AND where are all the people who were calling for Johnny’s head. Even when it comes to defense, he may throw out anybody but he sure creates more outs by tracking down almost everything hit his way.
“The Red Sox have no shortage of money when it comes to the draft. Their problem is that they have drafted horrendously over the past few years.”
???
the 2005 draft looks excellent: Buchholz, Ellsbury, Bowden and Lowrie. Pedroia in 2004, Papelbon in 2003.
i think their 2006 draft was very well regarded too. every draft class is going to have some busts.
trust me, if the Yankees had been drafting as “poorly” as the Sox since 2000, they’d be unstoppable right now.
fortunately, Cashman has fixed that problem, but the turnaround only started 2-3 years ago.
Miller,
The Dude abides.
I should qualify my previous statement: I still believe Dice-K is a very good pitcher. All I’m sayin’: every next big thinf faces unrealistic expectations. But for Dice-K, the expectations were just stupid.
“i dont think anyone would argue that a 3.76 era is not good”
of course not, but if i subtract out Wang’s bad 3 game stretch in August, he has an ERA of 3.14 and is the favorite for the Cy Young.
see how easy that is?
I was one of those people calling for Damon’s head. It’s amazing what a little motivation would do for ya, i.e. Shelley Duncan, Wilson Betemit, and the return of the Giambino. I still don’t think he’ll comeback next year, IMO.
Passer by- Actually, I agree. I wish the Yanks had won in 9, but not going into extras probably worked out in NY’s favor.
Plus, I almost prefer the lost in a superstitious sense. The longer a team’s winning streak, the more imminent the end to it seems. If NY had gone in on a winning streak, I think I’d expect a loss more than I do now.
Things are looking good. Red Sox starters, so great earlier in the season, are now big fat Pinatas. So glad that the Sox have decided to use “Joba rules” with their No-Hitter Rookie & use him only out of the bullpen for the rest of the season. Right now he looks like their 2cd best starter, & I would be way more concerned about him than Dice-K, Schilling & Wakefield. With Manny out of the lineup there is no reason whatsoever to give Ortiz anything to hit in a tight situation.
Damon’s old position is being played by “leche” and don’t think Damon likes that developrment. He may want out.
Daisuke is a VERY good pitcher against bad offenses. But he absolutely sucks against good offenses. Here’s the proof:
He has ERA less than 4 against only 3 AL teams. KC (1.29), OAK (2.57) and TAM (3.00). His highest ERA against 4 NL teams he faced is 3.38 against ATL. Others 0 against SFO, 1.5 against SDG and 3 against ARI.
“whereas a few weeks ago, pundits were talking ROY, suddenly hes a bust. reasonable people dont fall for that crap.”
sure, that’s true. the change in perception is probably unwarranted. no one actually knows what has changed with him and why. you are right in that respect.
what we do know is this: if he gets hammered tonight, the Dice-K bandwagon is going to lose another wheel.
*All these talk about how mediocre he is, I bet Dice-K will throw a great game tonight.* -
I think Dice-K’s tired. That’s probably why he has struggled.
Dice-K has pitched far better than you’re giving him credit for. He’s much better than Moyer and Maine, and doing it in the AL. Only Wainwright is better than him from the guys Pete listed, and that’s only because of his ridicluous HR/9 which I doubt he’ll be able to maintain long term.
Matsuzaka:
K/9 – 8.8
BB/9 – 3.4
HR/9 – 1.13
FIP – 4.38
Moyer:
K/9 – 6.0
BB/9 – 2.8
HR/9 – 1.42
FIP – 4.97
Maine:
K/9 – 8.0
BB/9 – 3.6
HR/9 – 1.11
FIP – 4.57
Wainwright:
K/9 – 5.9
BB/9 – 3.1
HR/9 – 0.56
FIP – 3.87
“Wang’s 2007 era splits BAL TEX (9.95)TOR (9.90) SF(5.68) TB (5.11). however, Wang is still a good pitcher.”
Rich,
You made my point for me. Didn’t you?? Wang’s bad peformances do not have pattern. He has his bad outings distributed between good AND bad offenses, which tells me those were just bad days for Wang or those particular teams (just 4 of them) hit Wang well. But, Daisuke’s are segregated. He’s good against bad offenses and bad against good ones. And just 3 AL teams are NOT hitting him well as opposed to 3 AL teams hitting Wang well.
Well, stats are just stats. They dont tell the whole story and we all know that in the back of our mind.
They’ve got to play the games!
Passer by,
The numbers don’t have a pattern because of sample size issues. These same issues affect Dice-K’s matchup stats, rendering them useless.
i was just thinking about how great it is to have 3 , count them 3 young pitchers performing in kennedy , hughes and joba . its been a long time since the yanks have had some quality young pitching . i love to speculate on the 2008 rotation . clemens will be gone . the free agent market looks thin at best . good thing the yanks have these guys .
wang
pettitte ( 16 mill one year player option )
moose (2008 remaining)
hughes
kennedy
chamberlain
Do you think its wise to put 3 semi-experienced young pitchers in the same rotation right off the bat though?
Chris-
Dont over look the rest of the minors either! The Yankees have a lot of highly regarded talent down there still..
I’m hoping Moose retires to free up a permanent rotation spot for Kennedy. It’s looking like we might have something close to the 2000ish A’s rotation plus Wang and a $200 million payroll.
Let’s not delude ourselves, Dice-K is struggling a bit lately, he’s tired. You know in Japan all the teams play in the same time zone, so there is much more travelling here. He’s still outstanding. It would not surprise me if he does well tonight. However, his future is still bright. He’ll be even better next year.
That being said, since it looks like Joba and Ian are going to be in the rotation next year, I’m glad we didn’t spend the money on him. Young kids are clearly the better answer.
DMan, just curious, what are the untold parts of the story?
Bosco,
The sample size is small for considering performances against each single team. But, if you classify all teams as good and bad offenses, I think we have a decent sample. Not a great sample but a decent one.
“Do you think its wise to put 3 semi-experienced young pitchers in the same rotation right off the bat though?”
If they’re our best options, then why not? The big issue though will be limiting their innings, as all will still be in the injury nexus next season.
I’m not sure what we’d have to give up for him, but I suspect the Twins will try to move Santana before he becomes a free agent. If we can get him at the top of our rotation I’ll probably cry.
Miller–The Yankees don’t have choice but to put the kids in the rotation. They’ll probably be capped innings next year so that their development can continue along with endurance in their arm. The Yankees could go out this winter and sign a veteran pitcher. But there isn’t or won’t be much out there. Mark Prior might be non-tendered. He could be a possibility. I think the rotation will be Wang, Pettitte, Joba, Hughes and Kennedy. I don’t think Mussina will be back, IMO. Will he be an upgrade over Kennedy? Doubt it. Then you can have spot starters/long relievers in the ‘pen like Horne or Marquez and possibly Ohlendorf.
Regarding stats. Stats make sense only when 1+1 = 2. That is not the case in baseball. In basketball a 3 pointer is a 3 pointer no matter when you do it. So is a 2 pointer. Same in football. But in baseball, sometimes a single can be worth 3 runs and sometimes a triple can be worth can be worth only zero. Sometimes, even GIDP can be worth a run. Heck, you can even get an RBI by making an out. To take it a step further, the result of a same effort can be different for different people. A HR can be worth 1, 2, 3 or 4 runs. A batter who hits a triple each AB can theoretically have 0 rbi and 0 runs scored. His OBP is 1.000 and SLG is 3.000. On the other hand you can have 100 rbi without the benefit of a single hit.
Jeremy-
Do you mean as far as the minors go?
Well you can check out a few websites for info on the minors.. This my favorite: http://mvn.com/milb-yankees/
But in general we have a lot of good pitchers in low A and AA.
Also our draft class from this year has actually been pitching pretty well.
Steven White, Phil Coke, Michael Gardner, Ryan Pope, Eric Wordekemper, Dan McCutchen, David Robertson… Just to name a few.. Also don’t give up on T-clipp or Chase Wright just yet either..
“If they’re our best options, then why not? The big issue though will be limiting their innings, as all will still be in the injury nexus next season”
Yea, but then you are taking one of the biggest weapons in our bullpen right now OUT of the bullpen and making him a starter (Joba). If you limit these pitchers innings then we must seriously beef up our bullpen because we cannot rely on Farnz, Viz, Britton, Ramirez and Veras. They are all question marks. And dont forget about Mo, he will be 38…
Chris in Fairfield-
I’m hoping Moose retires, too. I love the guy, but I don’t think he’s got much left in the tank.
But a rotation like this:
Wang
Pettite
Joba
Hughes
Kennedy
Moose (?)
Looks pretty darn good. It’s so amazing to have this to look forward to, after the horrors of this past May. I mean, with the exception of Moose, that’s a consistently solid rotation, even with the new kids. They may be young, but they’re proving themselves to be pretty mature so far.
Things are looking so bright.
Miller the Yanks also have COx, sanchez, whelan, and others for the pen… The problem with 90 % of relief pitchers is there performance varies so much yr to yr…
they can resign Viz if they like(I would if it is 2 yrs for reasonale money A couple of mill per yr.)..
look at alan embree and tons of other relief pitchers you never know what you are getting yr to year.
Kennedy looked great last night but Hughes still will be much better in the long run…
I hope Daisuke fails tonight but I would not bury him yet, he is a good pitcher but has thrown to many pitches and innings. He focuses on K’s way too much and that is not good for his long term success..
passer by, while all that’s true, it’s also true that there are plenty of hard-and-fast rules in baseball, such as it’s better to get on base than to make an out, and it’s better to hit for extra bases than one base.
The factors you mentioned are exactly why stats like OBP and SLG are better indicators of a hitter’s ability than RBI and runs. RBI and runs are team-dependent, OBP and SLG are not.
Kind of off topic – but does anyone know what the travel schedule was for the team?
I assume they flew last night, got to the boston hotels at 2 or 3?! Then they get to the park at 3ish today?!
That gets me exhuasted just thinking about it
83-63 Current
3-0 Sweep BoSux
10-3 Last games of Seaon
96-66 Joy In Yankee Land !
Seaon = Season ( derrr ! )
nate c-
Hard to say.. Its like a 90min flight from toronto to boston..
Thats not terrible..
“the 2005 draft looks excellent: Buchholz, Ellsbury, Bowden and Lowrie. Pedroia in 2004, Papelbon in 2003.”
2006 and 2007 is what I meant.
Jeremy,
It is not as simple as “it’s better to get on base than to make an out”. Who would you rather have? Somebody who walks or hits a single once every 2 ABs or somebody that makes outs 4 out 5 but gets a HR or XBH the fifth. You can never answer that question the same all the time and be correct. That is why no statistics in baseball make sense. IMHO.
“2006 and 2007 is what I meant.”
you are declaring the 2007 draft a bust in September?
Clay “Lenovo” Buckholtz will be pitching by inning 3 tonight. Put it in the books.
If anything, its Theo’s FA signings and trades (for the most part) that Red Sox nation should be up in arms about..
The days of putting bandaids on the Yankees through wannabe marquee names like Loaiza, Wright, Brown et al are over with.
Anybody saying that Cashman hasn’t chose the correct path is flat out delusional. The future is before the Yankee fan’s eyes and getting better.
The bad new is that Dice-K is due for a great outing..
Peter, are you functionally retarded? It’s his first full year here, and you’re declaring him “what he is”? Did you say the same things about Beckett, Burnett, and other pitchers who enter the AL from weaker systems?
You’ve gone from respectable beat reporter to full-out blinder wearing fanboy of the Yankees.
Here’s to hoping a swift foul ball bounces off that five head of yours tonight at the Fens and knocks some journalistic sense into you.
Pete: A word of warning. Whenever we rip someone on this blog they tend to come back with a huge game…
…so maybe we should stick to ripping the Yanks’ pen or whatnot, and not the BoSox pitching?
its just fun to speculate with all these youthfull pitchers .
Team landed at Logan about 2am.
Ahh Rebecca, wheres the optimism!
Doesn’t matter what we say, the Yanks shall prevail
“Regarding stats. Stats make sense only when 1+1 = 2. That is not the case in baseball. In basketball a 3 pointer is a 3 pointer no matter when you do it. So is a 2 pointer. Same in football. But in baseball, sometimes a single can be worth 3 runs and sometimes a triple can be worth can be worth only zero. Sometimes, even GIDP can be worth a run. Heck, you can even get an RBI by making an out. To take it a step further, the result of a same effort can be different for different people. A HR can be worth 1, 2, 3 or 4 runs. A batter who hits a triple each AB can theoretically have 0 rbi and 0 runs scored. His OBP is 1.000 and SLG is 3.000. On the other hand you can have 100 rbi without the benefit of a single hit.”
Sounds like your complaint isn’t with stats, it’s with the wrong kind of stats. Wins, RBI, and Runs have zero predictive value and are useless when determining a player’s true talent and value. That’s why intelligent analysts use them very, very rarely.
LOL, I feel bad for the MLB, if this our rotation of the future:
Wang
Hughes
Joba
Brackman
Dellin Betances
Kennedy
LOL, we may have to have a 6 man rotation just to show off a little.
“Peter, are you functionally retarded? It’s his first full year here, and you’re declaring him “what he isâ€?? Did you say the same things about Beckett, Burnett, and other pitchers who enter the AL from weaker systems? ”
while i agree with you to some extent, that it is indeed possible he needs some time to adjust and that no one really knows that at all, are you really comparing the National League of Major League Baseball to the Japanese League?
that’s where your argument breaks down.
also, Burnett never struggled in the AL, so i’m not sure why he is mentioned. he was still injured at times last year, but when he pitched, he pitched just as well as he had in the NL.
“2006 and 2007 is what I meant.”
It’s way, way too soon to pass judgement on those drafts.
“Pete: A word of warning. Whenever we rip someone on this blog they tend to come back with a huge game…”
i can guarantee you this:
if Matsuzaka pitches a good game tonight it will have nothing to do with what was said on an internet blog.
Lay off Peter. This is a blog and he is allowed to write differently than for the paper. Here it is important that he pander to his knuckle-dragging yankee fanbase.
It’s about comments and page views and advertising revenue and the allmighty $. Don’t for a minute believe that Pete wants a thoughtful high-quality blog. He wants a high-volume blog. The difference is crucial – and readily apparent.
pat – thanks. that’s really late. hopefully the adrenaline kicks in for todays destruction of D Mat
Im getting more and more pumped for this game as the day goes on.
At this pace I may run out of energy and be asleep by 6.
passer by,
I think we both agree that it’s always better to get on base than to make an out. Every team always has 27 outs, and the team with the best baserunner-to-out ratio probably wins the game. This’s why OBP is the most important “core” stat in the game. If a team has a 1.000 OBP, it would score an infinite number of runs, but if it has a 1.000 SLG, it would not (although it would still score a ton of runs).
Power can and does compensate for a lack of OBP, but a power hitter who can’t get on base is probably going to be less valuable than a slap hitter with a high OBP. The power hitter’s many outs will counterbalance his occasional XBHs.
Also, as you said, a hit’s value (in terms of RBIs) depends on whether men are on base. If a team has a low OBP, its power hitters will not do as much damage with their XBHs, and they will be stranded when following batters make outs.
The ideal player has a high OBP and SLG (and if he’s truly ideal, steals bases and is a great defensive catcher or shorstop). But since not every player is ideal, I think you have to look to high OBP guys first and high SLG guys second. A high OBP maximizes the effect of all following hits.
No, I wasn’t comparing them at all, only to suggest that both are weaker than the American League. I’m not ready to write Matsuzaka off as a “failure” or “what he is” or happy that he didn’t end up on the Yankees. When I see him, I see a guy who strikes out a ton of guys, but has trouble with control at time. He loses it fast when it goes, but he definitely has an extreme level of talent.
Unlike Peter, I’m not ready to write something so blatantly negative towards him, when I do think that this year will be his worst. Most of us can’t even imagine the adjustment he has gone through this year, and I think the fact that he’s going to win 15 or so games in his first year is amazing. I was really thinking ten games top when the year started.
He has awesome stuff, and good fastball, and a competitive edge that it takes to succeed here, and I wish the Yankees had him. I’m sure he’s breaking down with this longer season, but to be honest, who didn’t expect that?
And, on another note, Peter’s argument goes to crap the second he cites guys like Irabu, Nomo and others for comparisons sake: the only real comparison between any of them is their culture. Matsuzaka has’nt pitched well, but it’s not like he’s relying on his delivery or anything to fool hitters.
He’s good, the last five times not withstanding.
This is why every other blog makes fun of this one – not the commenters, but rather, the author and his crybaby antics and blatantly biased reporting of everything. It’s a notch below Dan Shaughnessy and Murray Chass – at least they can admit their stupidity.
Or rather, the stupidity of their writings.
“Im getting more and more pumped for this game as the day goes on.”
Absolutely. Im freakin psyched.
“At this pace I may run out of energy and be asleep by 6.”
False. My adreniline and blood is pumping harder than Britney Spears at a pie eating contest right now. Hell yea!
Hawk…calling someone retarded is way off base. Do you have any idea how hard that would be for someone to hear that actually cares for or has a family member that IS Mentally Handicapped ? You need to select your words a bit better and show some respect. It’s one thing to disagree with someone, it’s another to become completely offensive.
“It’s way, way too soon to pass judgement on those drafts.”
You really think Jason Place and Daniel Bard will ever make it to the majors? Kei Igawa has a much better chance of pitching a no-hitter than that ever happening.
Their 2006 draft was a humongous bust. The 2005 draft more than makes up for it, but it doesn’t eliminate the embarrassing picks. It’s reminiscient of some of the early-00’s Yankee drafts…except the Sox actually tried.
Their 2007 draft remains to be seen, but the 2007 draft class, past the first round, was really pretty weak, and the Sox forfeited their first-round pick by signing Drew.
EX-YANKEE MEL HALL FACES CHILD SEX CHARGES… FACES LIFE IN PRISON
http://www.sportingnews.com/yo.....p?t=272621
… man this guy was the biggest clubhouse cancer when he played.. on those early 90’s team…
“No, I wasn’t comparing them at all, only to suggest that both are weaker than the American League. I’m not ready to write Matsuzaka off as a “failureâ€? or “what he isâ€? or happy that he didn’t end up on the Yankees. When I see him, I see a guy who strikes out a ton of guys, but has trouble with control at time. He loses it fast when it goes, but he definitely has an extreme level of talent. ”
i agree with this.
i was just saying we have a much better handle on the transition from the NL to AL than we do from Japan to MLB.
that is very much a mystery still because of so few data points.
it IS possible that Matsuzaka is a 4.40 ERA pitcher in MLB.
it’s also possible that he’s just tired and will bounce back.
no one knows, including Pete, so i guess i agree with most of what you are saying.
As a Sox fan this site is probably the best team blog on the net, but my god Pete is turning more and more into Michael Kay as time goes by.
From his incredibly snarky post about Buchholz the day after his no hitter to his Joe Morgan-esque DiceK post it’s clear that he’s really playing down to the lowest level of Yankee fandom.
It’s really too bad because this is such a great place to come for info, but the analysis and fanboyism is pretty sad
Miller-
Wow, thats pretty fast.
Im upset I have to watch this game on NESN.. Ugh is it hard to listen to the Red Sox announcers.
I will be seated comfortable at home in a North Jersey bar getting smashed rooting on the bombers.
I love friday night games.
Hawk–You take things too personally. If you can’t make an intelligent response to Pete’s thread about Dice-K then why post?
Red Sox announcers might not be great….but NOBODY is worse then Michael Kay when he gets into Yankee fellating mode
Did anybody else read Petes post right after Buchholz’s no hitter and get the same snarky jealous vibe that I did?
hmmmmm, Matsusaka is a bust, Julio Culio a bust, Nancy drew a bust, and we are still 5.5 games out?
Guess that means we are a bigger bust?
Dman: Oh, I’ve got optimism…it’s all in the name (clickie)
Aaron-
I guess I don’t get what you mean..
Pete doesn’t make thigns up or pull them out of thin air..
Of course he leans towards the Yankees side of an argument, this is a Yankees blog.. He’s not trying to be impartial..
Dman77 I know it’s a Yankee blog but for a beat reporter one would expect a little less “Michael Kayism”
I mean how may times can you cross out Curt Schilling and replace it with blowhard or 38pitches.com before it just looks ridiculous?
Uncle Vito
September 14th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
hmmmmm, Matsusaka is a bust, Julio Culio a bust, Nancy drew a bust, and we are still 5.5 games out?
Guess that means we are a bigger bust?
NOT MY POST….TROLL AWAY, JERKY PERSON !!!
I agree that the ‘fanboy’ish nature of this blog piece is pretty low brow. Where would the Yanks be had they Matzuzakas 14 wins instead of the snake eyes they rolled out from Triple A for the fist half of the season? In first place by about the 5.5 games, is my guess.
The acquisition was a classic two-fer, a la Damon’s signing the year before. If it wasn’t the Sox, it was likely the Yanks (and even the Mets were bidding high) who would get him.
Think his 14 wins would be more like 18 if he had an offense as unstoppable as NY’s? Dice K has gone 12 starts when receiving 2 or fewer runs of support. I think he might be the difference that pushed the Sox into their first AL East pennant in 9 years.
Hawk-
You misrepresent Pete’s comments. What he is saying is that Dice K is not the ace that the Red Sox and many in the media thought he would be. And that’s true– his statistics are mediocre, and his performance uneven at best.
And let’s forgo the personal attacks. Pete works hard and provides us with valuable access and insight on a regular basis. I for one enjoy his writing and this blog. If you don’t, there are other blogs you can go to.
Aaron,
With all due respect, as a Yankees fan, I would never think to visit a Red Sox blog and complain about it having a Yankees bent. Actually, I can’t really imagine visiting a Red Sox blog in the first place. I’m here because I’m a Yankees fan, I enjoy bantering with other people who are, similarly, Yankees fans; I suspect that’s why they’re here, too. Why are you here?
I dont know why I decided to add ‘77′ onto my name just now.. But anyway…
Thats just Petes way of writing.. It’s his own blog, we just happene to come and comment on it.
Think about it, a blog is not a newspaper.. A blog is a place to be partial and throw your own feelings out there..
Petes a Patriot fan, many of us aren’t. He talks about that here because it’s his blog.. He may have things he wants to write, but can’t in his paper. This becomes the outlet for it.
Sorry, that should read “having a Red Sox bent.”
It’s amazing that anybody in this day and age would use a win/loss record as a way to evaluate a pitcher.
Aaron-
He gives you more then a win/loss record in his blog entry.. Pete tells you he’s sixth in K’s and in walks.. He gives you his ERA…
What else do you want to see? Pete’s not a professional scout, hes a reporter..
I’d rather the Yankees have gotten Matsuzaka instead of Igawa. I really wouldn’t want them to have gotten either as I don’t think they had a huge need for either. He hasn’t been great lately, but the 14 wins(and he’s also gotten some bad run support at times) is definitely worth double the bidding of Igawa(though the contract is very inflated). I think Matsuzaka may be going through fatigue, but I don’t think his major league success is over. As a Yankees fan, I hope it is, but I have a feeling he won’t be terrible next year.
Jeremy,
I agree OBP and SLG are the two RELATIVELY better stats out there. That doesn’t mean they are very reliable. The value of what a hitter does in a given AB is a function of what the 3 batters before him did and how many outs there are and who is hitting behind him. In that sense, a hitter’s statistics (no matter what it is) does not make sense without a context. Like I said earlier, the problem is unlike any other sport, the same cause can have 2 different effects in baseball. for eg, a single with bases loaded can mean 3 different things. OBP or SLG doesn’t capture this. But there is a difference. Statistics tells you somethings abt a player. But going by stats alone as money ball or stat heads suggest is also not prudent in my opinion.
Carmine-
Oh yah absolutly. I don’t think anybodys argueing that getting Igawa was in any way a better choice than Dice-K.
Dice-K isn’t bombing like Igawa has by any means. He has 14 wins, a lot of stirkeouts.. Its just that he hasn’t played to the expectations of everybody who thought he was going to come in and win 20 games.
well now matsuzaka’s going to go 8 strong innings tonight. thanks for the jinx, pete. kidding. kind of.
matsuzaka’s not as mediocre as his statistics suggest, but he has not lived up to explanations in boston. anyone who says otherwise is making excuses for him. the guy was billed as the next santana and he hasn’t been. he’s been a decent number 2 or 3 starter and he was expected to be far better than that.
tough loss last night, but it seems like burnett is always tough on the yanks. kennedy pitched great; he has really impressed me so far, although his control at times is a little short of what was advertised.
big series this weekend, not necessarily in terms of the division. detroit faces garza, santana and baker, so if the yankees can take 2 of 3 this weekend, they should have enough distance between themselves and detroit to start feeling pretty comfortable. boston is also the last real “challenge” the yanks face, although they do have the orioles up next, and baltimore has been brutal this season for the yankees.
enjoy the series, everyone. i’m going to try and catch as much of it as i can. if you’ve got friends in LA, we’re at the mint tuesday 9/18 with stephen bruton, who’s pretty damn great.
Right, and that’s a ridiculous assumption. There’s a reason it’s tough for anyone to win 20 games, especially a rookie. If he were any other rookie, this would be considered an amazing season, but Pete’s right in that Japanese starters tend to have the majority of their success early in their careers. There’s also the fact that he’s being paid a lot more than your average rookie. I wasn’t disagreeing with Pete and I really hope Daisuke continues to pitch poorly, but I just have this feeling he’s probably not done. It’s too early to tell either way.
I wasn’t attacking your comment as a sidenote, Dman. I was criticizing the assumption that someone will win 20 games in his first year.
Another thing to look as is the free agent market. When will there be another oppertunity to sign a 26 year old with the POTENTIAL to be a front end of the rotation starter for nothing more then cash?
If DiceK stays healthy with an ERA around 4-4.25 then it’s a wildly successful signing for the Sox when you compare that with the other options out there.
“One thing is certain. Whoever the next “greatâ€? pitcher is from Japan isn’t going to have teams in a bidding war.”
I couldn’t disagree more. Contending teams will always pay out big money for pitching no matter where it comes from. Due to the way posting works, it hardly matters that Igawa and Matsuzaka didn’t take the world by storm in their debut seasons.
The posting system gives the bidding team tremendous power because the team loses nothing if it doesn’t sign the player. If the Sox didn’t like Matsuzaka’s asking price, they could have walked away for free. Why else would Matsuzaka, a supposed ace and a Boras client no less, have accepted a 6-year, $52 million deal when the Meches and Zitos of the world were getting vastly bigger deals? To put Matsuzaka’s contract in perspective, consider that he makes less than a million more than Farnsworth this year.
As with the Yankees and Igawa, the Sox have a very movable contract with Matsuzaka. Of course they got him to keep him, not trade him, but if things don’t work out they can easily cut their losses by trading a contract that most teams would love to have. They incurred far less risk with Matsuzaka than, say, the Giants did with Zito.
I think other teams recognize that posting allows teams to balance out the risk of acquiring an inexperienced MLB pitcher with a below-market contract. The sting of the posting bid is softened by its separation from the contract itself and its exemption from the luxury tax.
As for Matsuzaka himself, I don’t think you can safely say “he is what he is” when (a) he’s 27, which really isn’t that old, (b) this is his debut in both MLB and the AL, and (c) a reduction in his BB/9 rate would potentially turn him from a decent pitcher into a dominant one.
Overall, I think the jury is still out on whether the Sox made a good move on Matsuzaka. It has to be, he’s played one season and has shown flashes of both brilliance and mediocrity.
BTW I thought this part was funny:
“It’s a matter of time before the media up there turns on him and the sports radio jackals call for him to be traded.”
Stupid Bostonians. New York media would never turn on one of their players and call for him to be traded.
I mean look at the money given to Clemens….combine that with Igawa’s money and it’s a complete disaster when you look at the stats.
DiceK is a 26 year old with a boat load of potential who’s worm down in his hardest season yet. Anybody calling him a bust is pretty foolish. Ala Beckett last season.
Anyone who thinks Pete is a homer needs to go back and read what he has written about Farnsworth and A-Rod in the past. He’s an equal opportunity basher who is only biased by who he likes and not the laundry.
Speaking of free agent pitching, anyone think the Yankees will make a serious bid for Johan after next season? The old Yankee philosophy surely would, but I don’t know how in line with the home grown youth pitching it would be as he’ll be 30 entering the 2009 season. He’s easily going to command something in the 6 years @ 120 range. Probably even more. Pettitte might be done after next year too. I mean I’m sure they’ll make some sort of bid for him and what happens in 2008 will of course alter things(ie: if someone expected to be good winds up being terrible or vice versa), but just wanted to know what everyone thought.
Blog
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“Blogger� redirects here. For the blog publishing system, see Blogger (service).
For other uses, see Blog (disambiguation).
A blog (a portmanteau of web log) is a website where entries are written in chronological order and commonly displayed in reverse chronological order. “Blog” can also be used as a verb, meaning to maintain or add content to a blog.
Blogs provide commentary or news on a particular subject such as food, politics, or local news; some function as more personal online diaries. A typical blog combines text, images, and links to other blogs, web pages, and other media related to its topic. The ability for readers to leave comments in an interactive format is an important part of many blogs.
I’d say peter is doing exactly that
Aaron-
Well there mught be a post or 2 here where someone calls him a bust.. But to defend Pete, he doesn’t say that at all..
He says: “If history is any guide, Matsuzaka will not get much better.”…”Is Matsuzaka different? Nobody knows.”
If history is a guide then Phil Hughes is a bust….see how silly that sounds?
Every pitcher is different…just because they’re all from Japan doesn’t mean they are all on the same career path.
I will reserve my judgment on Matsuzaka until the end of next season just as I will reserve my judgment on Igawa. Their past performance numbers should be based on what they did in MLB for 2 seasons.
I really hope Matsuzaka gives a sub-par performance tonight. That’s all that matters to me.
I wish we had registratien so that sorry troll could not imertate me. Registratien cant cum quick enough for me, Yankees pride, power pinstips.
Aaron
If you haven’t figured it out yet, this is a tough crowd. People on here considered A-Rod a bust last year and he had 35 homers and 120 RBI’s and cost the team 15 million after Texas money. RS Fans would be giddy if they got that production from Drew. They want Torre fired after he has had 11 winning seasons, 6 WS trips and 4 wins. Francona could be Governor of Mass. if he put up those numbers. Why would you think they’d have a more positive take on what DiceK has put out there this year?
If history is a guide then Phil Hughes is a bust? Really? He’s just 21 years old and is coming off 2 serious leg injuries. Talk about reaching for something.
Aaron-
Hes just making a point, not saying thats going to be the case. If you can’t see two sides to an argument, if you simply play it off as ’silly’, then your the one blinded by ‘fanboyism’..
Im not trying to fight with you here, but just as you want us to notice that it could go one way, you have to realize that it could go another, know what I mean?
Peter,
I disagree on Matsuzaka. From what I’ve seen of him this year, he struggled a bit out of the gate while adjusting to North American baseball and pitching every fifth day. He battled through it and managed to keep his team in games. He found something out and had a great mid-season, then tired from the workload and is struggling now.
I could see him being a very good number 2 starter in a rotation. It’ll be interesting to see how he adjusts next year. He’ll know the batters better and may better vary his pitches. His numbers this year don’t look great but they were very good before this latest slide. He’s still basically a rookie in MLB. Maybe this is all he has. As a Yankees fan, I hope so. But I won’t right him off just yet. Sure he walks too many, but he’s a battler in the mold of Orlando Hernandez (in that he minimizes damage) on the mound and I think it’s too early to say this is his best now.
Pete:
(1) ignores that Dice-K pitched well for much of the season. His mediocre numbers are largely a result of him having been shaky lately, possibly because he’s wearing down as a result of the MLB season being longer than the Japanese season and because starters pitch more often in MLB; and
(2) claims that this might be the best DiceK pitches, ignoring that Josh Beckett had a very similar year to DiceK last year while adjusting to the AL — and DiceK had a lot more to adjust to than Beckett.
That said, I have no doubt that the many idiot Red Sox fans out there are going to start killing DiceK (especially if, as I fear, he is tired and may wind up being mediocre the rest of the year), just as they were killing Beckett last year. I can only hope the number of idiots killing DiceK will remain far lower than the Yankee-loving geniuses who demanded that ARod be traded during the off-season.
Jury is still out on Beckett – one good year, one crappy year so far. Meanwhile, Hanley Ramirez would look real good in center for the Sox right now. Coco has been decent, but Hanley is a far superior player (I know Hanley is technically still a SS, but he is awful there).
Typical Red Sox apologist who probably became a fan AFTER ‘04.
I originally posted something here and a couple of other blogs showing that DiceK was having a very comparable season to Barry Zito, even adjusted for the league and park differences. His K rates is much better, and might be cause for optimism. But it is diluted by the high BB and HR rate, the two other things a pitcher “controls”. He may get better as he “adjusts” to the league but the histroy of Japanese power pitchers coming over here suggests the opposite. I included and analysis of this in my original post. Looking at the power pitchers who came over here in their “prime” ages (26 – 29), every sone had their best year in the first or 2nd season and declined materially after that. Nomo is the best comp, and played his first season in the US at age 26. His ER+ was 120 and 150 in his first 2 years, which is great to dominating. He only posted on “great” year the rest of his career and most of them were average, below average or outright poor.
And this expectations game is revisionist. The bottom line is that virtually every one thought DiceK was quote “one of the top 10 pitchers in the world”. And this includes smart analysts like Rob Neyer and others. And the teams who were prepared to invest $100 million (more than the Sox btw) also believed this to be true. Bottom line based on this season is that he isn’t even one of the top 25 pitchers in baseball. Will he ever be? I for one, am now betting against it.
Would I have rather had him than Igawa, Chase Wright, Tyler Clippard, Matt DeSalvo? Of course, but that is a red herring.
But for tonight, Go Yankees!
Who is the Sox apologist you are speaking of?
And I do see both sides of things Dman…I just find it funny to hear certain people on here acting like DiceK is a bust when that’s clearly not that case.
I never said Hughes WAS a bust…I pointed that out because it’s silly to use small sample sizes or not look at the whole picture when evaluating a player
Hey Kasey,
Ever eat at the Flying Fish in Seattle?
Ok, seems quite a Dice-K fans found their way over..
Ill refer to a post that ‘hmmm’ poster earlier, its something to consider
“ERA by opponents:
ARZ – 3.00
ATL – 3.38
SDP – 1.50
SFG – 0.00
KCR – 1.29
OAK – 2.57
TBD – 3.42
CLE – 4.26
SEA – 4.33
DET – 4.50
TOR – 5.18
CHW – 5.40
NYY – 6.98
BAL – 8.38
ERA by month:
April – 4.36
May – 5.22
June – 1.59
July – 3.62
August – 4.45
September – 16.88″
Just some stats. I know they don’t tell the whole story, but, still.
“But going by stats alone as money ball or stat heads suggest is also not prudent in my opinion.”
Did you even read Moneyball? That’s never suggested in the book at all.
Also no “stat head” web sites ever suggest just using statistics to judge a player. They push for an combination of the objective (stats) and objective (scouting) measures when making personnel decisions. And given a large enough sample size, basic metrics like OBP and SLG are far more consistent than you give them credit for.
I don’t know. He’s pretty clearly out of gas. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect something like his first half over the course of the contract. They spent $102M, but only half of that counts toward the luxury tax, so it’s actually less than that. He brings marketing dollars, ticket sales (not that they had a problem before him), and global attention to the team. There are huge debates as to how much this is worth, but say a couple million a year. So you can consider him actually costing about $13M per year or so.
$13M per year for a guy putting up an ERA around 4 in AL East seems like it’s about the going rate, even probably a bit below market value. Look at what Zito got, or Lilly for example. What do you think Pettitte would get if he were 27? Beuhrle might be a good comparison – he’s getting $14M a year and that was considered a big hometown discount.
I just don’t think it’s as bad as you think. Now yeah, if he continues pitching like this and is useless this year and in the postseason, his value takes a hit. But over the course of the contract, I think he’ll be worth it.
Aaron.
While I agree with you on Matsuzaka, and think he has done fine for his first year here, comparing his performance with Hughes is flawed.
Hughes is a 21 year old pitching in the Majors for the first time, coming off two major leg injuries. Matsuzaka is healthy and coming from Japan which is close to MLB level, at worst 4A. I agree that not all Japanese pitchers are the same but looking back on past history is relevant. Japanese pitchers throw so mant innings at a young age that it is believed by many that they break down earlier. Matsuzaka has thrown a lot even though he is just 26-27. So for that reason, it is fgair to compare to other Japanese pitchers who have pitched similarly.
O/T
I got 20 emails today from my clan in boston, Whitey Bolger has been located in Sicily! And by tourist of all people. HA! If you saw “The Departed” – that’s Whitey!
http://www.bostonherald.com/ne.....id=1031495
Aaron,
Dice-K is not a bust, he just hasn’t been a #1 pitcher so far, and since the Red Sox spent $51 million just to sit down with him, he was expected to be (by many people)a number #1 pitcher.
The Hughes analogy doesn’t wash. Hughes should improve, Dice-K probably won’t. I wouldn’t expect a Beckett-type second season from him.
Dr. Acula-
Whats funny, is that those pictures/film were taken way back in April.
Hes long gone by now!
Carmine,
Johan Santana is one of the top two pitchers in baseball. If he is allowed to reach free agency after this season, I hope the Yankees give him whatever he wants.
Aaron, first off, very few people are calling Dicey a bust. He just hasn’t been as good as advertised. He has dominated mediocre, free-swinging and interleague lineups and has had subpar performances against good teams.
As far as his transition goes, Dicey’s contract perks enabled him to have few off-field worries (personal assistant, apartment, car service, masseuse, plane tickets to Japan for his wife, translator, etc.). Dicey was also the one who asked Francoma to stay in games longer as he thought he could throw 120+ pitches on the regular like he did in Japan. Remember when his bullpen sessions ‘were stuff of legends’ as he sat out there and threw 100+ pitches when other MLB starters throw around 40. When the Dicey hype machine was in full gear, I guarantee that you, like most other Sox fans, were eating it up with a spoon. Now that he has had an extended period of poor performances you try to explain it away, citing Josh Beckett as an example.
That makes you a Red Sox apologist.
passer by,
It sounds like you’re looking for a stat like WPA, which captures the exact context and value added or subtracted of every play. However, it has very little predictive value compared to metrics like wOBA.
“One thing is certain. Whoever the next “greatâ€? pitcher is from Japan isn’t going to have teams in a bidding war.”
I disagree, Pete. There will still be bidding wars for top Japanese pitchers so long as the posting system gives so much power to the bidder.
Look at Matsuzaka’s contract – $52 million over 6 years for a Boras-represented Japanese ace, in an age where average pitchers get $10 million per, and Zito gets $126 million over 7 years! The Sox could sign Matsuzaka to that contract because they were free to walk away and not pay a penny of their $51 million posting bid if they didn’t like the numbers Boras gave them.
Teams never have leverage like that with MLB players.
The end result is that the Sox have an easy way to cut their losses if Matsuzaka doesn’t improve: They can trade his easily movable contract. This isn’t a win for the Sox, but it’s much better than being stuck with a true 6 year, $103 million contract.
Also I think it’s a bad bet to say that Matsuzaka won’t improve, considering that he’s only 27 and is making his debut in both MLB and the AL.
BTW, I enjoyed this part:
“It’s a matter of time before the media up there turns on him and the sports radio jackals call for him to be traded.”
Stupid Boston media. Like that would ever happen in New York.
Bosco,
to be honest, No. I haven’t read money ball. I just read the condensed interpretations of it, just like your above. So may be money ball doesn’t suggest what I thought it suggests.
DMan-
I hear ya. But the FBI didn’t go public for nutin’ They’re trying to shake him – force him to the surface, in hopes of locating him via a commmunications tap on his former/current associates.
jon-
I have to point this out yet again. A pitcher doesn’t get extra credit for pitching in the AL East, if he pitches for the Yankees or Red Sox. The other offenses in the AL East are Tampa Bay (about average based on runs scored), Baltimore (below average) and Toronto (one of the worst in the AL). So Dicek gets what, 3 starts this year against an elite offense in the AL East? Compare that to a pitcher on the Twins, for example who has to face a great offense (Tigers) a very good one (Indians), and two bad ones (White Sox and Royals). And the White Sox just got bad this year.
The Al East IS the toughest division in baseball. For someone on the Os or Blue Jays.
Dr. Acula-
Yah I think they already tried to find him with their contacts in Italy, but they couldn’t, so they tossed that picture out to hopefully get a lead.
Doc, thanks for the Whitey link. His brother was the president of UMASS when I went to school there, an ironic twist I always found amusing. The guy who is president of the largest state institution has a brother on the FBI’s most wanted list.
And people in the Northeast like to shake their heads at Californians…
Jeremy said: “The end result is that the Sox have an easy way to cut their losses if Matsuzaka doesn’t improve: They can trade his easily movable contract. This isn’t a win for the Sox, but it’s much better than being stuck with a true 6 year, $103 million contract.”
This is logically flawed. They eat the $51 million posting fee in this case. If the Giants, for example, wanted to eat $51 million worth of Zito’s contract then they would be less “stuck” with the rest, no? The balance remaining would be at the average annual salary of $10 million.
There is a luxury tax arbitrage with the posting fee, but I think only the Yankees are paying that anyway.
rbizzler
“Jury is still out on Beckett – one good year, one crappy year so far. Meanwhile, Hanley Ramirez would look real good in center for the Sox right now. Coco has been decent, but Hanley is a far superior player (I know Hanley is technically still a SS, but he is awful there).”
Funny how you left out World Series MVP against the Yankee’s in 2003…. Convenient. What jury you talking about??
passer by, the best summary of Moneyball I’ve seen comes from firejoemorgan.com, and it goes something like this. A small market team (like the A’s) can’t afford to sign the best-known stars. To compete, it has to look for players whom the market has undervalued. The A’s became successful despite their small payroll by identifying players who were essentially underpaid and signing them to bargain contracts.
To locate these kinds of players, the A’s looked for types of performance that other teams did not value properly. The best example is OBP – for whatever reason, a lot of teams were not giving big contracts do players whose greatest skill was just getting on base. This is an oversimplification, but the A’s would get a guy other teams passed over because his batting average looked low but who drew a lot of walks. A true Moneyball approach, however, does not say “OBP (or any other stat) is king” and only sign players who have a high number for that stat. Instead it finds any ability that is undervalued, be it OBP, defense, or speed, and signs players who have that ability for cheap.
Regarding your statements about prediction, of course it’s very hard to use past performance to predict the future. Otherwise we would all be millionaire sports bettors. But baseball isn’t a slot machine, where each spin is completely independent of the previous million spins. Some players are more likely to perform well than others. A GM has to sign as many players who are good bets as possible for the best price possible and hope for the best. And unless he’s capable of watching every player every day and remembering every play and at bat, he has to turn to stats to see a player’s overall performance.
Uncle Vito
September 14th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
I wish we had registratien so that sorry troll could not imertate me. Registratien cant cum quick enough for me, Yankees pride, power pinstips.
( uh…again…NOT ME ! )
BREAKING NEWS : Bedwetting Troll learns to type, story at 11 !!!
rbizzler-
that’s only the half of it.
Billy Bolger was THE President of the MA state Senate. He wheeled frick’n power like LBJ. All in all, Billy was a great guy.
Pete needs to post something else so there can be a new discussion already.
Dr. Acula, want to play Toe or Finger??
Bo Sox…
The jury is how Beckett pitches in the American League which is a whole different beast than the NL. Beckett has all the talent in the world, but this is the first full season he’s ever lived up to his potential. He had a superb post-season in 2003. It’s fair to want to see if he can sustain it.
Beckett’s stats:
2001 2-2, 1.50
2002 6-7, 4.10
2003 9-8, 3.04
2004 9-9, 3.79
2005 15-8, 3.38
2006 16-11, 5.01
2005 was the first time he ever pitched 200 innings. Again, Beckett is having a great year but it is fair to wonder if he’ll stay healthy and maintain this level.
I have one comment, with all of the uncertainty in the free agent market or the draft, if the red sox spent $103 over 6 years towards other pitchers, would they really get a solid number three? Dice-K is clearly better than Gil Meche, but is Carlos Zambrano better than him? Maybe.
Before anyone jumps down my throat, I’m a Yankees fan and not a troll. My point is that it was a lot of money, but they have money. A solid three may just cost that much now.
That being said, 17/year for CC Sabathia is a much better investment. Although it might take 20/year.
That should say 2006 was the first time Beckett pitched 200 innings.
some Bosox troll said:
“Funny how you left out World Series MVP against the Yankee’s in 2003…. Convenient. What jury you talking about??”
Wow. 2 games and 16 innings pitched. Four years ago.
By that logic, we should be pounding our chest about Mike Mussina. Or don’t you remember him outpitching Beckett in Game 2 of the same series? Or Andy Pettitte, who pitched better than Beckett and everyone else the same series, throwing 16 innings and giving up only one ER (vs. 16/2 for Beckett).
Go away clown.
You are such a total tool..anyone remember you comparing him to Stevie Wonder Igawa???? Oh no mention of Igawa..what a shock….Josh Beckett gave up 36 home runs last year and was awful..now a Cy Young candidate..you chooch..your definately a two pump chump
Who are the big FA pitchers this year? With the new approach and the expensive re-ups we have this off-season, I can’t see the Yankees chasing any high $ pitching. Are we set for next year? If Wang is Wang, Pettitte comes back, Joba’s in the rotation, Hughes gets back on track, and if Kennedy is the real deal. The only one I see the Yankees coveting is Santana who’s not a FA yet. I can’t imagine Cashman giving up Hughes, Melky, and prospects for Santana.
Miller-
_want to play Toe or Finger??_
oh please, I have other things on my mind
http://tinyurl.com/39×3ha
Miller-
(Take II – and action!)
_want to play Toe or Finger??_
oh please, I have other things on my mind
http://tinyurl.com/2ae69h
kd-
$17 million is too high for a solid number 3 based on the market last year. And DiceK is not, by any stretch clearly better than Gil Meche.
Meche has a 127 era+, and a 1.32 WHIP with a 2.44 K/BB ratio in 195 innings pitched. And he doesn’t looked gassed. This includes 2 starts against the Yankees. He signed for 5/$55 mn, way cheaper than $17 per. (And the posting fee actually costs more whan salary if you consider time value of money/inflation).
DiceK is ERA+ 103, WHIP 1.33 and 2.56K/BB in fewer innings (184). And he is putting strain on the bullpen down the stretch.
mel-
Thee are NO big FA pitchers this year. Seriously, Carlos Z was the only one.
Cash$ is likely to make due with what we have and save the $ for 2009 or an in-season acquisition/signing of someone from the Central Divsion…
if you look at matsuzaka’s era against teams that he faced a lot, he’s worse than league average. that tells me that the more teams face him, the easier he is to figure out.
he doesn’t throw hard so he can’t live off his fastball. when he gets tired he loses his control so he doesn’t locate well. he get’s tired after 20-25 pitches in an inning. it’s not just tired after 80-90 pitches. the real trick is to get him above 25 pitches in an inning. then he implodes.
that’ll be the game tonight the yankees will be playing -getting him into a high pitch count in an inning and then watching him lose his command and give up a bomb or two.
matsuzaka can be very good if a team doesn’t tire him out. it’s important to get runners on and to run on him. he doesn’t like the distraction. he doesn’t pitch well out of the stretch so the yankees need to get him into it and then drive him to distraction with small ball.it’s a mistake to play station to station baseball against him.
this is a very big game tonight. if the yankees continue hitting matsuzaka the way they have been, the red sox won’t know what to expect from matsuzaka for the playoffs.
i personally want this game to stay ahead of the tigers. i think you manage differently if you’re trying to win the division. i think it would take too much out of the team to do it. matsui, jeter, posada, etc need rest for the playoffs. a 5-6 game wild card lead would give the luxury of resting key players.
While I curse myself for saying, something tells me Mr. Dice-K is going to be just fine next year. If it takes a year or so for some guys to acclimate from the National to American League, we should expect the same from him.
It’s still too much money for someone who plays every five days, and there’s that chance we’ll get just as good a year from Hughes, Chamberlain, or Kennedy in their first full year in the majors as well for a lot less money.
Just pointing out an excluded stat thats all…. and I’m pretty sure you do all that chest pumping anyway… classless Mikey…. truly classless
The Yankees and Sox have flipped seasons. They’re experiencing Dice-K struggles now like we were experiencing Igawa struggles early on. Cashman was able to bail out the ship and set it straight.
I’d like Dice-K to be just bad enough to lose games. If he really struggles then Theo might do something original and innovative, like take him out of the rotation and put in a hotshot prospect. My fear is that they’ll put Bucky in and he’ll steal one from the Yankees. Yikes!
Mel,
Here is a list of the upcoming FA starting pitchers.
Kris Benson * BAL
Paul Byrd * CLE
Shawn Chacon PIT
Matt Clement BOS
Bartolo Colon LAA
Scott Elarton CLE
Josh Fogg COL
Casey Fossum * TB
Freddy Garcia PHI
Livan Hernandez ARZ
Jason Jennings HOU
Brian Lawrence * COL
Jon Lieber PHI
Kyle Lohse PHI
Rodrigo Lopez COL
Wade Miller CHC
Eric Milton CIN
Odalis Perez * KC
Joel Pineiro * STL
Kenny Rogers DET
Curt Schilling BOS
Carlos Silva MIN
Julian Tavarez * BOS
Brett Tomko * LAD
Kip Wells STL
Randy Wolf * LAD
Jaret Wright BAL
Victor Zambrano NYM
* indicate 2008 options
Michael T & Bosco,
Thanks. I see quite a few ex-Yankees on that list. And Matt Clement? Didn’t he retire? It seems like ages since he’s pitched.
I hope our young guys are up to the task because there is not one pitcher on that list that’s even remotely attractive. 3/5 of the pitching staff will be rookies? Awesome, dude!
Thank you Rich. Much appreciated.
And Matt Clement? Didn’t he retire? It seems like ages since he’s pitched.
He should have retired after he got drilled in the head….I’m pretty sure some one could pick him up for a box of crackerjacks and ball of lint. Maybe the Marlins??
Yeah, the pitching free agent class this year is pretty sad. Probably the three best options are all over 40(Glavine, Rogers, and Schilling although Glavine actually has a player option, so he’s no more of a free agent than Pettitte). I’d like to see Glavine finish as a Brave.
I think it’ll be interesting to see the deals Colon and Clement have considering they’re coming off ineffectiveness/injuries, but have been good in the past. They lucked out with the lack of a really standout free agent starter and whatever deals they get will probably benefit from it. Same thing with Rodrigo Lopez to a lesser degree. He’s actually been pretty decent this year when healthy.
Pretty weak free agent class. Thankfully we have some young studs to plug in the rotation.
I don’t like anyone on that list, but it would make sense for the Yankees to get an innings muncher if they are going to have three kids in the starting rotation. And also as inurance against an injury from Pettitte.
Paul Byrd woul dbe good, but Cleveland picked up his option. If they could get a reasonable one or two year deal, I’d take a look at Livan Hernandez. Everyone else on that thin list who is decent and reliable will likely get a 3+ year deal. Kenny Rogers is an OK option for anybody but the Yankees. And Schilling would fit the bill if he proevs healthy down the stretch, but I think he signed the “No Yankees” oath.
I, like most of the free world, abhor Schilling. I’d rather have Bonds than Schilling. I hope it comes out that he eats steroids.
Rich
“i think his point is that the other poster was saying the jury was out on Beckett, whos been an excellent estbalished pitcher in the majors for years now.”
And my point was, it is pretty specious and/or lame to use 16 innings pitched from 4 years ago as evidence that someone is an “excellent established pitcher in the majors for years now”. Do you disagree?
Ok, admittedly, I’d rather have Dice-K than I would Igawa, but ultimately, I’d rather have neither. Igawa was a big-time waste of money.
When will MLB teams learn that Japanese starters are #4 starters on average in the Show? Relievers…that is another story. There has been some legit success amongst asian relievers in MLB. Sasaki, Otsuka, Okajima. They just seem to fizzle out toward the end of the season.
Dice-K looks like a porcupine and Igawa has the same teeth as Austin Powers before “The Spy Who Shagged Me”.
Oops, I totally forgot about Mussina. Sorry, Mike, it was an honest mistake. I was just so jazzed about Kennedy’s performance. I don’t think he’ll be munching too many innings. We need a Julian Tavarez type to give spot starts and long relief.
obp vs Xbh
last time i looked this was a team game, ergo team effort. the best lineup would have a good mix of both of these. what that is optimally is for the stat heads.
Hey, this is pretty funny…. You really have no clue what you’re talking about… the sox just won the World Series and Dice-K was great…. Keep sucking New York…. : ) Money well spent…. Ha Ha Ha suckers…