All hail the season of Jorge Posada
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Sep 30, 2007 
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Assuming he doesn’t play today, Jorge Posada will finish the season at .338 with 20 home runs, 90 RBI and 91 runs scored.
Only two catchers in history have ever had such a season.
Mike Piazza (1997) went .362, 40, 124, 104.
Bill Dickey (1936) went .362 22, 107, 99.
Piazza was 28 and Dickey 29. Posada is 36. His season, in that context, is truly historically significant.
Too damn right, Peter.
Jorge doesn’t stand a chance at MVP against the seasons that A-Rod & Mags Ordonez had, but it sure was something special.
Congrats to Jorge on a great season. Arod and Jorge 2007 Yankee MVPS.
One would imagine that a catcher would be run down at the end of the season. Posada however, ended the season with a .395 avg. Truly a marvelous season.
that’s true Jorge’s season isn’t up there with Arod or Magglio but still had a awesome season.
Pete — worried about you not getting enough sleep. As always, appreciate your hard work.
I hope Jorgie has a BLAST today as manager. Wish MLB.com was carrying the YES broadcast so we could see more dugout shots of Manager Jorgie in action. Please do pass along any of the inside stuff you’re privvy to — especially Jete’s ribbing of his “hard-headed” friend.
Two Words
Javy Lopez
A great WALK year
We sign him for 3 maybe 4 years and he dies in mid 2008!
JAVY LOPEZ!
Isn’t it just amazing how this comes in his contract year?
I forgot how good of a hitter Piazza was. Hip hip! Jorge!!
Congrats to Jorge on an outstanding year.
Should Joe be worried about his job? Could Jorge possibly replace him?
Amazing, Maybe he finally settled in because his mind is free. His son is suppposed to be done with all the awful and freigtening operations. So maybe Jorge finally went into a year with a clear head.
Hell of a time for a Career Year there Georgie.
Me thinks Brian Cashman will overpay this offseason.
off topic, but there was just a great piece on joba and jacoby ellsbury on espn. watch it if you can.
Peter, hate to say it but you are wrong
In 1999 Pudge Rodriguez hit .332 with 35 hrs, 116 runs and 113 rbi…..and 199 hits
Piazza has also had several seasons better than Jorge’s this year. Where did you get the idea that this ranked so highly in history. I’d venture to guess that there are other catchers who have done better as well.
Posada had a great season but why exaggerate?
Makes me more glad that I drafted him as my catcher for my fantasy team this season.
Nice year for Jorge and the Assistant Captain will be rewarded with a contract that allows him to be a Yankee for life. At the same time, Brian Cashman needs to lock Jose Molina into a deal to give Jorge less time behind the plate and hold things in check until Francisco Cervelli or P.J. Pilittere are deemed ready to be full time.
Pudge was filled with steroids when he had his great years.
Sorry, but an unproven allegation of steroids does not negate his numbers. Especially not in an age when LOTS of players have probably been involved with roids.
Bob- he is half the man he was when he was hitting.
http://www.howardowens.com/images/rodriguez.jpg
you be the judge… i’ll post he second link in another post. don’t want it blocked.
http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2006/10/27/s78mkpi4.jpg
second link
Posada’s OPS+ was 160 this year, compared to Pudge’s 125 in 1999, the year he won the MVP. You are correct that cherry-picking statistics, especially wrongly, is a dangerous error-riddled exercise.
By the way, Jeter’s OPS+ in 1999 was 161.
Maybe PeteAbe was taking the home field into context as well?
Posada gives impeccable leadership and there is no way that you can overpay for that. Just an outstanding year! I couldn’t imagine him in any other uniform, and I don’t believe that I will have to. He should definitely be back, although of course, I am NOT the GM.
Jeter was robbed in 1999.
Guys, stop throwing around allegations please…you have no idea if he took steroids or not so please don’t try to guess. His numbers were better than Posada’s and Jorge would be the first to admit it. Why can’t you?
…although thos eOPS numbers are interesting…
Jennifer 27 in 07–I don’t see any difference unless u look at stats.
Piazza was 28 and Dickey 29. Posada is 36. His season, in that context, is truly historically significant.
Posada’s season was historically significant based on his age at the time he had this season. I believe that’s the point Peter was making.
Other stats from Jorge in ’07
- OBP of .426 (3rd in the AL)
- SLG of .544 (8th in the AL)
- 42 doubles (tied for 8th in the AL)
Someone should remind him that he’s a 36-year-old catcher – I guess he didn’t get the memo…
How about Yogi?
1950 .32/28/124/116
1954 .307/22/125/88
Piazza was roided out of is mind too.
Why does todays game begin at 1:30. Strange start time.
Congrats to Posada, But as a life long Yankee fan brought up watching Yogi Berra in the fifties I would also like to point out, I have never in my over 50 years as a Yankee fan seen a poorer defensive catcher than Posada at catching balls into the dirt and letting pass balls in critical situations. Also there is not on this current team a poorer baserunner who has continually over his playing career right up until this day not learned what some players come into the game instinctively doing well, how to run the bases. He is like having Yogi on the team with half his game, the offensive only. To mention him with Bill Dickey is a farce. Any older fans know what I speak. The 61 team had 3 better defensive catchers on that team Blanchard, Howard and Berra. Posada is good for the Yankees in that he plays an era where a dearth of great catchers in the game. HOF, hell no.
I don’t get all the “walk year” garbage. Posada has always been a superb hitter as a catcher, look at 2003– you can argue that his 03 season was actually better than this years.
Look at Andrew Jones, he sure had a great year for his walk year.
We’ll resign Posada for 3 years and I’m sure all will be grand. Next year or in 09 he’ll be moved to 1B/DH so his hitting shouldn’t decline much. No reason not to expect 280-300, 15,80 from him next year.
Jorge is the true captain of this team.
I assume the whom is better Posada vs. Varitek is now officially over and done…..
Another decent season or two and he is making the HOF
I’m a Yankee for life since the fifties, I hate the Red Sox with a passion. Varitek is a better defensive catcher than Posada. Posada will never get near a Gold Glove.
“Jorge is the true captain of this team.”
I agree
If you want to see a good defensive catcher check out someone like Brad Ausmus, Posada is a great offensive catcher only, which is why he will never make it to Cooperstown.
Pudge was definitely on the juice. What was it, last season or the season before when he showed up to spring training MUCH thinner than the previous seasons? Coincidentally this was right after MLB finally implemented a drug plan. Everyone is waiting for names to be released by Mitchell’s investigation, but they probably never will. But we all pretty much know he used steroids. here are some obvious ones: Pudge, Brett Boone (remember that 140 RBI season out of nowhere?), Brady Anderson, Sosa, Bonds, Giambi, Canseco. Who else? I’ll think of more.
TimH – Posada isn’t a great defensive catcher, but Varitek isnt either. Varitek is one of the more overrated catchers defensively. That said, Tek isn’t even on the same playing field as Posada offensively. Varitek has had maybe 2-3 seasons in his career where he was worthy of a comparison to Posada. That’s it.
Folks -
When someone says that a certain player has achieved certain statistics, then lists those statistics and the other players that have achieved those statistics or better, it means that no other player (other than those listed) have achieved those same statistics or better.
So why would Marc reference Pudge Rodriguez’s stats in 1999 as being an example when the very first stat — batting average — is not higher than Posada’s? Unless Pudge hit higher than .338 (which he apparently did not since you listed .332), it’s not an example of when a catcher had a season with equal or better stats than those cited by Pete.
TimH – how can you say Posada will never make it to Cooperstown? Defense hardly ever gets rewarded by the HOF voters. They seem to look at career #s (and to a degree team success) and Posada will have a shot to stack up against the all-time greats in both. I wouldn’t rule it out yet. I’d say close to 50/50 right now especially if Posada plays 2-3 more productive years.
TimH
In comparison to Varitek, you are right that Posada will never get near a gold glove. He, also, will never get near a fight with a superstar with Red Sox while still wearing his catcher’s mask like a P*ss*. And Jorge certainly wont ever wear a “C” on his uniform if he becomes captain like Var”attack” as I like to call him.
“Pudge was definitely on the juice. What was it, last season or the season before when he showed up to spring training MUCH thinner than the previous seasons? Coincidentally this was right after MLB finally implemented a drug plan. Everyone is waiting for names to be released by Mitchell’s investigation, but they probably never will. But we all pretty much know he used steroids. here are some obvious ones: Pudge, Brett Boone (remember that 140 RBI season out of nowhere?), Brady Anderson, Sosa, Bonds, Giambi, Canseco. Who else? I’ll think of more.”
DB,
What do you think of Luis Gonzalez in 01?
He 57 Homeruns and 142 RBI’s. Prior to or after 2001 he hit 30+ Homeruns once(31).
Juice or no juice?
Boston Dave, I agree with you, neither Varitek or Posada are great catchers, lunch-pail type guys although Varitek better at keeping balls in the dirt in front of him and allows far less pass balls than Posada. I think both catchers are good fits for their teams in an era where there are no great catchers around, neither belong in the HOF. Although Brad Ausmus is great defensive catcher, Pudge definitely headed to Cooperstown, Joe Maurer could be headed toward greatness.
BTW, I have absolutely no love for Varitek, I am a Yankee fan, he should take his mask off if he wants to fight.
TimH – agreed.
TimH – you like Jose Molina as the backup?
“Only two catchers in history have ever had such a season.”
What?
OK I haven’t looked it up yet, but I’m pretty sure Johnny Bench, Roy Campanella, Mickey Cochrane, Berra, and some other catchers have had years that were equally productive or better than Posada’s year.
Jorge’s year couldn’t possibly be the 3rd best in history for a catcher.
Boston Dave, I suggest you look at the catchers in the hall of fame, all of them well rounded both defense offense. Posada at this stage of his career still running the Yankees out of ball games with baserunning errors. If you have to debate whether or not a player deserves to be in the hall, then in my mind he doesn’t deserve, the hall is reserved for only the great ones. I don’t know how old you are, I’ve watched the entire careers or Yogi, Carlton Fisk and Johnny Bench, there is quite a difference.
Luis Gonzalez.
Yes. Forgot about him.
BostonDave, I love Molina, I think that his addition a big plus to our team and bench. If we do face up against the Angels, would love to see Molina start a few with Posada as DH with Matsui and Giambi floundering as they have been lately. it would never happen though.
Pete W:
Look it up, bro. The only catchers in history to hit .338 with 20 homers, 90 RBI and 91 runs scored in the same season are Posada, Piazza and Dickey.
Very few catchers have ever hit for that high an average.
Only 8 catchers have matched his OPS of .969.
I’ll say it again just for effect.
What Pete is saying is that in those select categories — Batting Average, Home Runs, RBIs, and runs scored — only two catchers have done better. That doesn’t mean that catchers have not had “better seasons” with their collective statistics, just that in those four categories, only two catchers have ever had stats better. In those four categories.
So if Catcher McSteroidy has a season in 2008 with .337, 80 HRs, 212 RBIs, and 150 runs scored, he still doesn’t have a season that fits in the category cited by Pete.
This is a good stat site of HOF catchers.
http://members.tripod.com/bb_c.....hofmem.htm
TimH – according to your theory Mike Piazza has no chance at the HOF either.
Piazza was a better defensive catcher than Posada. I think Posada is the worst catcher in baseball at not catching balls into the dirt. There is a reason we get beat by speedy teams like Tampa and the Angels, a walk easily puts a runner in scoring postion with a pass ball. I guess I am only Yankee fan that notices how often Posada allows runners to move up and score with his pass ball problem.
I am also amazed how often at this stage of career Posada makes basic baserunning mistakes costing us runs,running out of innings, getting picked off by the pitcher. This guy is not a rookie. Yogi was slow too, but he is did not beat us with mistakes on the bath paths. All I am saying is Posada is not a HOF player for all those reasons.
Peter, I’m sorry but you are picking and choosing your stats. To say that no other catcher ever hit .338 with 20 hrs and posadas other numbers is a pretty stupid line to draw…is .338 that much better than .332? or .320? even…when the other stats are much better for other catchers…like Pudge who hit .332 with 35, not 20 home runs.
Best stat is OPS+ anyway…so at least go by that
I also grew up watching Yogi and Elston Howard catch for the Yanks. Posada, like these guys, started out playing other positions (Yogi & Ellie were outfielders and Jorge was an infielder) and was moved to catcher by the Yankees because of the offense that he could provide at what was usually a primarily defensive position. And like Yogi, Jorge was initially a pretty poor defensive catcher who had to work very hard to succeed behind the plate. As things turned out, Yogi had a higher ceiling defensively than Posada does. I heard Yogi speak at the Smithsonian several years ago. He said that Posada is “a good kid” who works hard and would continue to get better. And so it has turned out.
As for his HOF credentials, I think that he’s still borderline. However, If Jorge tears it up this October and leads the Yanks to the championship as the WS MVP, do you think that anyone would be able to keep him out?
I know Posada was a second baseman, and I also know that Yogi continued playing the outfield late in his career to allow Elston to catch, Yogi always put the team first. I stand by my statement that all three catchers on the 61 team, Balnchard, Howard and Berra were superior defensive catchers than Posada. Posada has improved, no doubt, his throw down to second much more accurate then earlier in his career, but he still has a problem and cannot keep a ball into the dirt from passing him as well the three Yankees from the 61 team I mentioned previous could. The one fear I have going into the play-offs is Posada’s defensive lapses particularly against running teams like the Angels and now Boston with Ellsbury and Lugo. Another WS championship for definitely depends on very good defensive play from Posada, no one would like to see him succeed more than I.
“Peter, I’m sorry but you are picking and choosing your stats.”
Yeah, that’s exactly what he’s doing. And that’s what he said he was doing. People do this all the time. He’s not saying it’s the third best offensive season by a catcher ever. But you can’t help people that misread it as such.
At age 36 when most catchers are in complete decline, Jorge is having one of the best years ever had by any MLB catcher anytime, anywhere. He has flaws in his game but so does everybody else. Unlike everybody else, however, Jorge still works hard to improve, now with Tony Pena’s help, and has played consistently well, if imperfectly, over the years. Jorge also plays with great passion and respect for the game and he has earned the respect of his teammates, his skipper and the fans and I would imagine most of MLB. Jorge is a devoted father who has been tried and tested repeatedly with his son’s medical condition and both he and his son have persevered and succeeded.
IMO, there are so few guys like Jorge anywhere, in any walk of life, that this season of his, alongside his many other accomplishments, is due respect and admiration. Appreciate it for what it is – don’t argue it away. If not the highest peak statistical ever reached, this season is one of the rare and great ones a catcher will ever have.
How is so complicated? I presented four stats, the four most commonly used stats to compare hitters, and pointed out that only two other catchers have previously reached the levels Posada this this season.
I didn’t say he was the greatest catcher ever or Hall of Famer or anything else. I simply pointed out his stats.
Yes, .338 is better than .332. Six points better.
TimH,
I agree with you that all three catchers from ’61 were better defensively than Jorge is. Yogi is HOF, Elston was an MVP and would have been HOF if he had not been blocked in his career by Yogi and by racial prejudice. Blanchard was good enough to have started on just about any MLB team. In ’61, all three catchers hit more than 20 hrs. to go along with their stellar defense.
Yogi was a delight to watch. He wasn’t fast, but he was quick like a cat the way he’s pounce on balls in front of the plate and throw the batter out. He had an incredible instinct for the ball and for the game, knowing what was about to happen and responding instantaneously. Yogi always seemed to rise to the occasion and produce when he was needed most. When blocking balls behind the plate, Yogi was just like he was as a hitter, able to get to the ball wherever it was thrown. He was just amazingly instinctive as a player, whereas Jorge relies on discipline and determination. Jorge is no Yogi, but he’s having one damn fine career and is a major contributor to this string of Yankees success, as Yogi did before him.
I can’t believe those of you that say to not resign Torre! before the Yanks v. Red Sox game recently at Fenway on Saturday, Tim McCarver interviewed Torre and Torre was asked if he wants to come back and manage. Torre, never saying flat out, YES, said “I’m having fun”. His players absolutely love him and have the utmost respect for him, I know this b/c I am friends with a former Yankee who pitched for us in the 2000 World Series. So I am not speaking from opinion. If the players love him and want to play for him, isn’t that what matters most? He gets them to go out there and play hard day in and day out and demands the respect from all of them.
He also said that Mattingly, one day, but not now, will be a good manager, he’s not ready yet. I do agree with him on that one.
Willie Randolph needs to come home – find a spot for him.
And oh, by the way, who do you think is responsible for the Yankees even being in the playoffs right now? YES, JOE TORRE! He is not responsible for injuries or who he has available to call up….he kept it calm and kept the players from giving up early in the season and just purely managed a team of stars who weren’t producing without talking down to them…that is something not many are capable of and to his credit, he deserves to be re-signed no matter what the outcome of the playoff season! Especially, this has been Joe Torre’s era and they won’t let him go for the final season at Yankee Stadium-just don’t see it happening
Roy Campanella in 1953 had 41 home runs, 142 RBIs, scored 103 runs, and batted .312… He also batted .325, with 33 homers, 108 RBIs, and 90 runs scored, in 1951… In both years, he had more walks than strikeouts.
Looking at the statistics, Posada has done a good job as a hitter this year, but as a catcher and base runner, he still has to improve. As a catcher, he needs to be careful dealing and communicating with the pitchers, esp. with the young and sensitive pitching prospects.
if jorge wants to sign and play here, personally with all his short comings, i’ll take him.
Jorge should get some serious MVP consideration. Top-5 would be fair imo. I hope he comes back next year, and Jose Molina too. Molina is very good defensively and surely hasn´t disappointed offensively. They´re 2 excellent catchers.
The problem with Pete’s post is it doesn’t do justice to the greatness of Posada’s season. Posada’s BA and HR are great, but what truly made him outstanding were his .426 OBP and 42 doubles.
At 160 OPS+, Posada had the second-highest OPS+ of regulars on the team, behind ARod at 183. The third highest? Matsui, at 128. By contrast, Justin Morneau had a 140 OPS+ last season.
Posada and the AL MVP were the two dominant bats on one of the best-hitting Yankee teams of the last 70 years.
When you consider that Posada started 136 games at catcher this season, it’s beyond debate that Posada had one of the finest seasons by position of all time.
One thing I’d want to stress from TimH’s comments is the importance for a catcher to block balls in the dirt. IMO, this skill is far important than throwing out base stealers, just because it comes up so much more often. It’s humble, but crucial. And I’d have to agree that Posada is not too good at it.
The other crucial, hard to measure skills for a catcher are handling the pitching staff and calling pitches. Both blur into the responsibilities of the pitching coach and even the pitchers themselves. The Yankees had good pitching when they were winning World Series with Posada as catcher–that reflects well on him. But maybe their trouble in breaking in new pitchers especially this year should also reflect on him.
He’s obviously slow, but I generally haven’t noticed him as a bad baserunner, except for a play this year when he stopped at second for what could have been a triple. Larry Bowa was enraged.
Looking at Posada’s career stats, you see that he’s drastically cut down on his Ks, but his BBs have also declined significantly. Has this been a conscious change in his approach at the plate?