Bloody aftermath commences
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- October
- 9
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Here we are at Yankee Stadium attending the wake waiting to talk to people.
Saw Larry Bowa and Joe Kerrigan so far. History suggests that only a few marginal players will show up. The veteran players know to stay away.
The focus will be on what happens next, mainly with the manager.
If you’re holding out hope that cooler heads prevail and Joe Torre returns, abandon that hope. The only question now is who replaces him.
The short list of possibilities (in no particular order):
Don Mattingly
Tony La Russa
Joe Girardi
Bobby Valentine
Buck Showalter
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on Tuesday, October 9th, 2007 at 11:04 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
I am beginning to think this might be one of those times when you dont want to follow the legend as the next manager. If/when Joe leaves, how many of the free agents will leave as well? A-Rod, Mariano, Jorge, Andy….. Who would want the pressure that comes with the job, when you are being set up to fail?
The veterans are good at avoiding the scene. Last year Jaret Wright and several other lesser players were around, I don’t remember who else. As for that list of managerial candidates, only Girardi satisfies me. Mattingly is loved in New York and he could be a good manager someday, but he just doesn’t have any experience.
Is there really ZERO HOPE of Torre returning? Plus I hope everyone including big steim realize that Torre isnt the guy hitting into those demoralizing DPs and striking out in big spots. His decision to go with Wang can be questioned and I was surprised he didn’t go with Moose with Wang waiting in the pen.
Torre should be kept as should A-Rod, Jorge, Mo, and Pettitte. I hope there is a way we can unload Giambi, because with Damon in LF and leche in CF, Matsui is the fulltime DH without question…
why abandon the hope hes coming back
Let’s go easy on the Joe drama. Cooler heads may yet prevail and Joe could be back. I have a feeling this is going to be a longer process that most believe.
Buck Showalter? Was Billy Martin unavailable? Oh, never mind.
I would choose Bobby Valentine if it were my call, but Mattingly is going to get the gig.
We’ll see how he handles it.
ARod won’t leave because of Torre. ARod will leave, if he leaves, because he’s sick of NY. I don’t doubt he likes Torre, but I can’t imagine he’s got so much loyalty that he’d leave in protest.
Jorge and Mo, they might leave because of Torre. I still think Jorge’s gone, no doubt about it, if Torre isn’t treated well in the process.
Pete- I don’t know if you can really comment, but do you have an opinion about which of the potential managers would be best? None of them seem to be far and away the best choice- as much as I love Mattingly, I don’t know that he’s ready, nor do I think this would be a good situation to start him on. I do think he’ll eventually be a great manager, though. Of course, that may just be my blind faith in Donnie Baseball, but that blind faith is mighty strong.
If Buck comes back you can forget about Alex playing third.
Pls bring Joe back! I don’t want to see Posada & Rivera & Petitie leave? Who’s gonna catch? Wil Nieves?
Absolutely no Bobby Valentine. What I saw of him that one year on BBTN was more than enough. I think he’d rub a lot of the players the wrong way, especially after 12 years of Torre.
Perhaps Bobby V could use his language skills on Kei Igawa and Matsui….or build everyone a decent sub….my bet is on Giradi, as he will lobby REALLY hard from inside YES. He might NOT be the best of solutions, however!
Ok, it isn’t just a manager that makes a team a winner, or not. I’m a Mets fan, and I realize that it’s the team as a whole. When the Mets started to lose towards that last week, that affected the whole mood, and playing ability, of the team. They are all HUMAN BEINGS. No matter how much they are paid, etc. At some point, all teams are bound to win some, and lose some.
Part of it is also luck. I agree that most major league teams can pay some players too much money. How many of you men out there would play professional ball and be willing to be paid almost nothing just to be able to play? A lot of you, I bet.
Whether Torre comes back, or not. What will matter is how the team mentally prepares themselves for next season, as well as physically. Same with the Mets, etc.
Jeez…I don’t know what to say. You can’t dismiss 12 post seasons in 12 years…but you can’t dismiss three years of first round chokes.
So what do we do…well here’s the round up:
Torre – Awesome record and true class all the way…but sometimes too loyal to vets. I don’t know…I’d say give him one more year…and only a one year contract. He and Gator and Donnie seemed to gel well. Maybe you need one more year.
A-Rod – With all his money can’t he get a good therapist? I mean YAY he finally got a post season RBI (since 2004) but at .180something batting average in Yankees post season? Cluth you ain’t…unless you’re clutching your own throat.
I mean the whole series the Yankees looked WAY to lethargic…where’s the fire boys? Last night they were swinging at everything…patience would have paid off.
Well, what would I like to see next year:
Outfield – Damon, Abreu, Melky (backup Matsui)
Infield – A-Rod, Jeter, Cano, Minky, Posada (backups Betemit, Molina, Giambi)
DH – Matsui/Duncan (backup Giambi)
Starting Pitchers – Wang, Pettite, Hughes, Kennedy, Chamberlin
‘Pen – Mussina, Veras, Ohlendorf, Mo’
I dunno…this might be lack of sleep too.
Uhm, Roger Clemens really want’s to be the manager, Trust me!
and…
All of you with your panties in an uproar (Players included) about joe getting canned.. you really need to lighten up and appreciate the NY Yankees. Joe had 12 years. 12Years! Do I have to say it again.. ?
Get over it, if you really think Joe Torre is the NY Yankee’s glue… your wrong! Look at the synergy with young player in Colorado and Arizona.
Any of the Yankee Players threatening to leave NY if Torre is fired .. you know what? Leave! We don’t need millionaire crybabies not getting there way who think they own the team…
I wonder how much of that mentality made this team perform the way they did all year under pressure.
This really was not all that good of a team… bring on the Youngsters who shine and appreciate the NY uniform.. not someone who think there doing you a favor by playing on your team… this teams mentality has been all wrong… that is why we get blasted out
another disgrace of a season. if joe isn’t fired, i’ll be shocked. his team, with the HIGHEST payroll in baseball, has been knocked out of the first round 3 years in a row. that is completely unacceptable.
Great.
Now we get 2 weeks of nonsense from commenters about A-Rod’s status.
Thanks, Yanks.
Pete, why abandon that hope? Do you have inside info? Anything beyond Steins comment the other day?
I remember 12 yrs ago everyone and their mother bashed the hiring of Torre.
So lets take a deep breath and let it play out.
I’m convinced all those calling for Torre’s head are nothing but SPOILED KIDS. Spoiled by the SUCCESS of the past 12 years. I know you’re all KIDS – if you were old enough to remember the 80s, you would know the Yankees aren’t entitled to anything, and making it to the post season is not a failure. Go lookup the standings from those days to see what BOSS’S interferences have lead to in the past.
Ask any psychologist: you shouldn´t make right now an important decision like that.
Wait for the team´s winter internal meeting and we´ll see.
Making the post season is not a failure.
Name me one team since 1955 that has 13 straight appearances in the post season and 4 titles in 13 yrs.
Name me one.
now i wish the mets fired willie.
Geez, the speculation of who’s staying and who’s leaving is worse than us losing the series!!! I’m sick to my stomach and have no time for mourning because today is at hand and there’s plenty to anticipate. I’m not the happiest camper here today at work. I just feel like a body who wants to keep reading this blog!
When and why did Buck Showalter become viale. This is the second time I’ve read his name as a candidate and I just don’t get it. My voteis with Girardi. He can relate with the veterans and is great with developing players. Hanley Ramirez blossomed under the guy and dropped off a bit after he left. I’m intrigued to see what he can get out of Cano, Cabrera and the staff next year.
No time to ruminate.
Next year the pitching will be younger. I like a rotation of Wang, Hughes, Joba, Kennedy and Pettitte. If Rivera leaves, let Joba close.
The bullpen will need work. I would not resign Vizcaino, too undependable, too many walks. I would trade Farnsworth, let Villone go. I think Britton has value. No Edwar.
If A-Rod stays, let Abreu go, and put Damon in RF, with Melky in CF and Matsui in LF.
Infield A-Rod, Jeter, Cano and Mintkiewicz, with Duncan as backup IF/OF, Giambi on the bench, with Betemit.
If Posada goes, resign Jose Molina. He did a nice job and can really throw and catch.
If A-Rod goes, keep Abreu and make Damon a DH-fourth outfielder. Make Betemit play 3B.
I’m not saying it’s great, but it won’t be bad.
Talk about choosing the lesser of evils. Time for a new list and a little Cashman outside of the box thinking.
Can we please hold a rally in front of the Stadium for Torre? Please? I will fly back from Michigan, I don’t care if it’s midterm season.
This is silly, there are two choices, Joe Girardi and Don Mattingly. One is the next manager, the other is the bench coach.
Sad to see Torre’s time here come to an end, but I don’t see any way that it won’t happen. I wonder if the Mets had axed Willie and that job were available would George be so quick to let Joe go, or would he fear a Torre return to Queens? Maybe Joe will wind up there anyway if the Mets disappoint again.
Showalther? Get outta here!
Buck Showalter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OH HELL NO
_Absolutely no Bobby Valentine. What I saw of him that one year on BBTN was more than enough. I think he’d rub a lot of the players the wrong way, especially after 12 years of Torre._
Yeah, this makes sense. We’re gonna judge the man’s managerial skills because of what he did on a TV show.
C’mon, don’t be ridiculous.
I wish the Mets fired Willie so they’d go after Torre and scare the hell out of Steinbrenner.
Aren’t Bowa or Pena better options than LaRussa?
I like Damon in lf, rf would be a nightmare! Everyone would run on him. Mats needs to be the dh, his body seems to be breaking down. Jason needs to be gone, trade buy out whatever, just get rid of him and his steriod riddled body. He is the one clogging up the roster.
Vince –
Damon does not have the arm for right. I think we keep Abreu regardless. He is te prototypical #3 hitter for this lineup. We’ll see. I just hope we don’t go crazy in an awful FA market.
I love the man, but Don Mattingly is not the right choice for this job right now. La Russa…not so much. Joe Girardi seems like the obvious choice to me, has experience, won Manager of the Year last season in the NL, and also played in NY for years.
Donnie should remain the bench coach for another year or two before we give him the reigns. Otherwise, this next season could get really ugly.
Oh, and for all of you who anticipate a major overhaul, loss of Yankee classics (Jorge, Mo, Posada), just remember that we will be alright in the long run.
As angry as I was last night, I went to bed knowing that we have 3 young pitching prospects ready to jump in to the rotation next year (Hughes, Chamberlain, and IPK) along with Wang and hopefully Pettitte. That is a good starting place and you know that Cashman will be at work on filling in whatever holes are left.
Steinbrenner better be careful (and I think he knows this despite the fact that he is old and obviously losing his marbles) because if he REALLY wants to win one more before he pushes daisies, firing Torre and forcing the major holdovers to walk is not the way to go about it. Hopefully his sons can slap some sense in to him.
Yeah I forgot about Bowa and Pena. So the list is.
Joe G
Bowa
Pena
“Jeff NJ October 9th, 2007 at 11:32 am
This is silly, there are two choices, Joe Girardi and Don Mattingly. One is the next manager, the other is the bench coach.”
To think that is silly..this is George Steinbrenner you’re dealing with. Nothing is that cut and dry…and Girardi would most certainly NOT take a job as bench coach with the Yankees.
It’s sad, but it’s time for a change. Joe hasn’t been able to take them over the hump the last few years. But no LaRussa, Valentine, or Showalter. Don’t make me ill.
Wang and Melky for Johan? Wfan, talking would you do it? I’d have to think about it.
_Donnie should remain the bench coach for another year or two before we give him the reigns. Otherwise, this next season could get really ugly._
This statement suggests that your choice of Girardi would only be the manager for two seasons and then get booted in favor of Mattingly?
That hardly makes sense.
La Russa the choke artist himself.. look at his playoffs teams collapsing in the playoffs even though they were all juiced up beyond belief. Give me a break just because he got lukcy last year people want to bring that joke in here.. GIVE ME A BREAK!!
Wang and Melky for Johan
Yup, i would
_Wang and Melky for Johan? Wfan, talking would you do it? I’d have to think about it._
I wouldn’t make that deal if I were Minnesota. Especially since Wang has trouble on turf.
I would like someone with some National League experience. So I like Bowa if not Joe G. I feel like we should go with someone who can be tough at times, too.
its amazin they dont want to bring Dusty “Clog Up Bases” Baker if they are thinking about La Russa and Showalter
I’m down for Joe G, Bowa or Pena. But I’d prefer to keep Torre
Wang/Melky for Santana or Wang,Horne,Marquez for Kazmir?
Bobby Valentine? Is that a joke? Is he really a candidate? That would be a disaster.
I think the idea of canning Torre will come from the boss, but I think the decision on his replacement will come from Cashman. One f the conditions he stipulated when he resined was control of baseball operations. Who the manager is would definitely fall under that.
The short list of possibilities (in no particular order):
Don Mattingly
Tony La Russa
Joe Girardi
Bobby Valentine
Buck Showalter
…and you forgot one Pete…
Joe Torre
The right choice is Joe Torre…period.
Kazmir is always going to be injury prone. I wouldnt trade Wang straight up for him, never mind adding in Horne and marquez.
Minnesota would not take a sinkerball pitcher. WFAN is a bunch of morons.
And as New York, I would not trade Melky.
Let me say this for the last time Yankees fans. You will NEVER win another championship as long as A-FRAUD is on your team.
You know, I really love Bowa’s aggressiveness as 3rd base coach. It would be a shame to lose that if he became the manager!
Everyone is calling up that they don’t want Tony L. LOL Let’s hope George is paying attention.
The big danger here is Mo leaving. Posada had a lucky offensive season but nevertheless is still one of the top hitting catchers in the game. However his defense is average and he can be replaced in that regard. If he leaves, can they find enough offense elsewhere? Maybe, maybe not (who do you replace?).
I’ve loved Torre and have been an apologist forever, but it’s time to go. It’s beating a dead horse but I can only take so much of his utterly clueless bullpen usage. That said, his impact in the clubhouse is likely big (though we’ll never know for sure) and I agree with most of his offensive and defensive decisions. It’s just mind-blowing to me how he can manage a bullpen so poorly when everything else he does is very good at worst.
I don’t know who a better candidate is. I want someone who understands the concept of high leverage situations, but I don’t think there are any (though Bob Melvin might).
Find someone who realizes how stupid it is to use your closer with a 3 run lead in the 9th. That’s your man. Too bad such a man doesn’t exist.
TexRangFan, why dont you worry about sammy sosa and barry bonds and we worry about Arod
Did you not see a game this series? We didn’t lose becuase of Alex. We lost because of Wang blowing 2 games, and Jeter, Jorge, and Mats not hitting.
Joe Girardi, PLEASE!!!!
Jeter hit. He hit into 3 double plays, and 2 of them ended potential rallies.
I know Kazmir is injury prone but he’s had 3 really good seasons now and plus he’s good against the Red Sox.
A guy I work with, who’s from Phoenix, just told me, “they should fire Torre, he didn’t get any hits all week….”
Last time I checked, it was Torre getting the credit for bringing them back form 21-29 and everyone seems to agree it’s probably his best year managing.
You don’t replace that with an inexperienced manager. Inexperienced managers manage inexperienced players. Girardi did well in Florida with a young team. Too many egos on this team for him to succeed in the Bronx right now.
Bowa & Pena present interesting possibilities that make me wonder why they’re not on that short list.
_Find someone who realizes how stupid it is to use your closer with a 3 run lead in the 9th. That’s your man. Too bad such a man doesn’t exist._
Speaking of stupid, you can’t be serious.
EVERY manager in MLB uses their closer with a 3-run lead in the 9th inning. Why have a closer if you don’t use him in that situation?
Those are called easy saves, although not as easy for some closers as others.
What about John Tuturro?
Without A-FRAUD. 26 Wonderful World Championships.
With A-FRAUD.
Biggest collapse in ALCS history.
Out in first round
Out in first round
Out in first round
I believe he and Boras expect 30 mil for 10 years.
Exactly Jennifer. Sure the bats were pretty quiet, but if Wang had kept them in games 1 & 4, things would have turned out much different. At the end of the day we lost because Wang was terrible and midges.
I hate this day after the season ends. It’s so damn depressing.
The first game was our fault. The second game, Fausto Carmona dominated for 9 innings and there wasn’t anything we can do about it. We won the third game. The 4th game was our fault. That was just terrible.
Ah, jon, a 3 run lead in the ninth is a save situation. Who do you use to get a save if not your closer, whose job it is…… to get saves…….?
And I’m by no means defending Torre’s bullpen use/abuse. At the same time, it was pathetic to watch this series and realize we have 2 trustworthy arms in the pen right now, one of which will be a starter next year.
Since we seem to be posting our mildly-uninformed picks for next year, I’ll go with mine.
Manager- Mattingly, because he’s Donnie Baseball, and I can’t go against Donnie B. Plus I really think he could do well, with the right support.
Bench Coach- Zim. This is almost certainly impossible, but it would be so great to see Jeter rub his head for good luck again.
Hitting Coach- Paulie. Again, this is blind loyalty to O’Neill. Plus, maybe he’d throw coolers around some more.
Starters- Pettitte, Wang, Hughes, Joba, IPK. In 2009, maybe NY can get Santana to replace Pettitte. That would be a scary rotation.
Closer- Mo. Of course. But who in the world will take his place when the time comes?
Bullpen- As far as I’m concerned, replace them all, or as many as is humanly possible. This is the single biggest problem, as far as I can tell.
Catcher- Jorge. Of course. But he’ll need a replacement soon, too.
1st- Doug M.
2nd- Cano
SS- Seriously, do I even need to write his name?
3rd- ARod. Fingers crossed.
LF- Damon, simply because his contract keeps him here. He’ll need to be replaced fairly soon, though.
CF- Melky, gotta love that arm
RF- Abreu.
DH- Matsui, again primarily because of his contract. I wouldn’t mind seeing him replaced in a year or two, though.
So that’s what I’m hoping for, given the current indications, my blind loyalty to certain players, and the total irrationality of picking these things this early. If I had my way, 2009 would actually represent a bigger change in the roster than 2008, but we’ll see.
Wang definitly didn’t do anything this post season to help stop the ‘is he or isn’t he an ace’ debate
Anybody in that list but Mattingly would be a Disaster.
Nobody is better suited for this job than joe.
We got to CC for 3 runs and got him out of there in 5 innings. That should have been enough to be in game 1 but it wasn’t because Wang couldn’t find it. I don’t want to blame the horse that got us there, but as is always the case, pitching is why we lost, ours and theirs.
And watching 3 SOLO HR’s last night was just enough to PI$$ ME OFF. 3 HR’s and we can’t win a 6 to 4 game???
i love mattingly, i really do, what will happen when stienbrenner fires mattingly when the start the season 5 and 17?
Kurticus: Kevin Long is a great hitting coach, though I’d love to see Paulie do something with the team. don’t think he would though. I think he likes being with this family. Zimmer would never be brought back as bench coach.
And why does everyone forget Moose has a contract for next year?
I often hear how Girardi is the best man for the job because of his success with the Marlins and managing a young team.
Does anyone forget that he also got fired after one season because he couldn’t get along with the front office? If he was that much of an asset to the organization, why did they fire him?
Lots of Marlins’ pitchers had arm trouble this season and much of that may have been the result of Girardi’s overuse of those kids last season.
Do we really want to see a repeat performance with the Yanks with Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, Horne, Sanchez, etc?
How much more experience does he really have over Mattingly?
Only one season the last time I checked.
“Find someone who realizes how stupid it is to use your closer with a 3 run lead in the 9th. That’s your man. Too bad such a man doesn’t exist.
Speaking of stupid, you can’t be serious.
EVERY manager in MLB uses their closer with a 3-run lead in the 9th inning. Why have a closer if you don’t use him in that situation?
Those are called easy saves, although not as easy for some closers as others.”
EVERY manager uses the closer like that because it’s what A MADE UP STATISTIC DICTATES. It’s complete BS. There is absolutely no statistic justification for using a closer with a 3 run lead.
Studies have been done, comparing closers’ performance with a 3 run lead against the performance of non-closers (i.e. setup men who pitched the 9th with a 3 run lead for whatever reason). Guess what – their save percentage was exactly the same (about 96%). You just said it yourself – these are easy saves. Easy enough for another guy in your bullpen, when your “closer” should have been coming into the game when it was tied in the 7th or 8th.
Your closer is your best reliever – the guy who can shut the door, and he should be used at the most critical time. If you’re down by a run in the 8th, that situation is many, many times more critical than being up in the 9th by 3 runs.
Someday, hopefully in my lifetime, someone with decision-making power will figure this out. I pray.
I think the answer will be Mattingly as he must have cut a deal to comeback in the first place. And he would have the better chance of attracting the Yanks free agents back to NY such as Mo…we cant lose Mo until we have a suitable replacement. I’d rather give up on A-Rod for better pitching such as Santana.
Arod was horrible again this post season. He struck out or popped up every time he had men on base. His HR doesnt erase that fact; just like Jeter’s RBI doesnt change the fact that he had a horrible season. For the first time, they both stunk at the same time.
It’s easy to blame the pitching, the manager, the Indians pitching, but the Yankees are supposed to be a big hitting team. Isn’t that where a lot of that payroll was spent (wasted)?
In just three playoff games so far, Papi and Manny reached base a combined 19 times in 26 plate appearances, with 4 homers, 7 RBIs, and 8 runs. That’s almost as good as the entire Yankee TEAM did in four games. That’s clutch. The “C” in NYC doesn’t stand for Clutch. Maybe another C word (hint: it rhymes with Coke).
I AM holding out for cooler heads, what information [facts] do you have to indicate otherwise?
If Cashman lets Mo and Posada (and Pettitte for that matter) walk out the door I really don’t know what I am going to do. . .I will lose all respect I ever had for him.
Thank god I have Springsteen shows tonight and tomorrow to help numb the pain.
edit to my last post: I meant horrible series for Jeter, not horrible season.
Anyone know if there’s a good, young option to replace Abreu in RF? I like the guy but wonder if there’s an opportunity to add another spark plug out there that’s more aggressive on defense and can fill his shoes with the bat?
Can’t think of anyone, but would love to see some more youth on the field and speed on the bases, and I’m tired of watching Abreu’s lazy defense on every other fly ball to right.
Chris–exactly.
I think that Torre should be fired. His strikeout with the bases loaded in the fifth inning in Game 1 was a killer.
The 3 DP’s he hit into in games 3 and 4 really set the tone for the failure of the team.
His 19.06 ERA in 5.2 innings of work was just putrid.
I just can’t understand how a manager goes from managing the best season of his career to losing his job in the span of 5 days.
Seems a little bit to me like spoiled Yankee fans out for blood.
Newsflash everyone…teams lose in the playoffs. In fact of the 8 teams that make playoffs, only 1 wins.
Regardless of what you think your devine birthright is as a Yankee fan, they will not win every year.
That is not Joe Torre’s fault.
CountryClub:
I disagree with you entirely. A-Rod did not stink. He was awful against Carmona, but so was the entire team. He had a rough start to last night’s game, but then came alive. A-Rod was average, which is spectacular compared to the rest of the team.
Jeter hit into 3 double plays, and 2 of them were absolute rally-killers. Comparing the two is an insult to A-Rod. At least when A-Rod stunk, he only got himself out.
jon-
you’re basically outlining a bull-pen by committe idea…
The idea that there should not be 1 guy for any specific role, and that anybody can step into different situations..
Giuseppe- Girardi couldn’t get along with the front office, but the whole mess started because the owner was meddling too much. There was a game where there was a bad call, Joe didn’t argue because he had been ejected the day before. The owner was sitting close to home plate, and he started fussing at Joe because he wasn’t showing enough fire. The owner signed his checks and he is the boss, but Girardi was in charge of what happened on the field. It wasn’t all Girardi’s fault. Owner Jeffrey Loria was the one being childish.
“For the first time, they both stunk at the same time.”
christ, this is why this is so damn frustrating: Arod numbers this postseason .267/.353/.467
Jeter’s number this postseason 176/.176/.176
Jeter didnt get a BB or an xtra basehit
Jonathan, did Torre strikeout in Game 1? Did he hit into DP’s? His ERA was 19.06?
What are you talking about?
What’s funny to me is that I wanted Joe gone last year. I thought he managed last year’s playoffs terribly. This year, I thought he did the best he could possibly do. If he went with Moose to start game 4, people would be calling for his head, but it looks like that should have been what he did.
This was probably one of his best managed series. But it didn’t work out. At least he tried.
Are they really going to give a soon to be 37 year old cather a 3 year / 42 million dollar deal? I like Jorge just as much as the next person, but a deal like that seems to be a little short sighted. History dictates that he’s going to hit a wall…and he’s going to hit it hard. I’m on board for Mo though. 2 years and 30 mil sounds about right. As for Arod, if we can extend him, great. But if he opts out and he wants a 10 year / 280-300 million dollar deal? See ya.
If Big Stein is smar.t,He should sign all the free agents before He let’s Torre go,to avert a bail out, or the Yankees will be a shell of a team next year.
Posada really can ask the Yankees for almost anything. Hes such an important part of the team, and hes incredably well liked..
Same goes for Mo.
Ok Jon, so when Mariano pitches the 8th, who comes in after Farnsworth blows the lead in the 9th?
There’s a reason it’s called a “closer” not a “stopper.”
Closers close games, not extend them.
Unless you’re suggesting Mo’ should pitch 2 innings every game, which I doubt you are. Besides which, we’ve seen Mo’ come in plenty of those 8th inning situations you’re talking about and close out the game, it just can’t be done everyday.
Andrea- I know. I just miss seeing Zim and Paulie in the dugout. I think they both have yet to be replaced adequately, both on the field and in the clubhouse. Some of the young kids are starting to bring back O’Neill’s fire, though, which has been sorely missing the past few years.
Like I said, these are just my blind loyalties showing through. It may be unreasonable, but it doesn’t prevent me from wanting it.
And I realized after I posted it that I’d left Mussina out (Shelly Duncan, too, though he’ll presumably stay on the bench/DH). Assuming Pettitte comes back, I’m not sure where Moose fits. Maybe in the bullpen. I’m not sure they should really send any of the three kids back to the minors, but maybe Moose could act as a 6th starter to help the kids ease into their first full season.
Of course, if Mo leaves, Joba becomes the closer, and there’s room more Moose in the rotation. If Mo stays, I’m not sure who stays in the rotation and who goes to the pen/minors.
we miss paulie (BTW I agree)…
It was a sacarstic post…basically my opinion is that Torre shouldn’t be let go because of the failure of his players this postseason and postseasons past.
I’m wondering what Peter knows but isn’t saying about Torre. Seemed pretty definite, byt why? Gotta be more than just a hunch.
Also, as much as I revere Mattingly, none of us know how he would fare as a manager, so it’s all just idle (or idol) speculation.
The media would eat up LaRussa and Gerardi, so neither of those guys make sense. Showalter? Who knows?
I say let’s bring Zim back!
(Just kidding.)
The point is, it’s all just speculation. And it’s not a democracy, either.
We’ll find out soon enough.
Come on guys, I’m a Jeter guy and i have no problem saying he stunk this series. But to say Arod played average is just silly. Jeter’s job is to get on base and score runs. he didnt do that. Arod’s job is to drive in runs. He didnt do that and he had plenty of opportunities. I want to be clear, I’m not blaming the series on either or both of these guys. The whole team, except for Andy, Mo, Hughes and Cano played well below their standards.
good call Catya.
To me, the team’s performance has nothing to do with Torre. I think we all know that. I think it’s absurd that his job hinged on it.
Honestly, I hate his bullpen usage but I love his personality and demeanor (definitely important in NY) and I agree with most other decisions. I would be ok with him staying. Part of that is because I don’t have a better option.
But I do know that for the past few years people were calling for his head, and I always got upset and really defensive. I no longer feel that way, mainly because of some completely indefensible decisions. Fine, maybe he doesn’t understand the statistical side of the game, and that might be ok because no managers or players really do.
But when you bring a tired Vizcaino into a game with a 9 run lead (pitching for the 3rd time in 4 days), when at the time (pre-Joba) you are relying on him to be your primary (and only reliable) setup man…..that’s just a sign that something is not right in your decision-making process. Can anyone disagree with that? Please? Anyone?
“Giuseppe Franco”
LOL
Have to keep: Arod, Mo, Posada, Andy
Like to keep: Abreu, Damon, Molina, Betemit
Don’t keep: Giambi, Matsui
Yeah, we need an edit function. Sorry for the typos!
There are NO good potential suitors for the Yankees managerial position.
Face it even Girardi has his negatives. Take the abnormal amount of Tommy John surgeries his former Marlin team had to deal with this year.
It will be tough for any person to fill the very large shoes of Joe Torre, will be interesting to see who gets the opportunity.
I’m fairly confident that person will be Don Mattingly, despite all the rumors you will hear in the next few days, I’m sure the Yankees and Donnie Baseball have reached a back room agreement sometime ago that he would be the successor to Torre. This guy didn’t come out of retirement to just be a coach forever.
That being said, I still think theres a good chance Torre comes back for one more year. If not him, Bowa for 1 year. Torre especially would be nice, to help resign Mo, Posada, and most importantly in my opinion Pettitte. Bowas being inhouse and a Vet would just be fine too. They(Torre or Bowa) would help bridge the old Yankees which in my opinion won’t change much into 2008. The real changes will happen in 09 when guys like Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy will have *full years* under their belts as starters. Guys like Giambi, Pavano, Farnsworth all off the payroll.
2009 will be a marvelous year and the beginning of a new era. Tabata, Austin Jackson, Gardner can possibly play important roles in this year. You’ll start to hear emerging names like Dellin Betances. I’m drooling at the thought! *2009 can’t come soon enough.*
Closing thought:
2007 was a successful season, we re-tooled and competed at the same time. Don’t let anybody else tell you otherwise.
I think the Yankees will use a 6 man rotation next year, so that overuse isn’t a factor. I’d be shocked if Hughes, Joba, or Kennedy throw more than 175 innings next year. That would be going against their set program of increasing the workload by 35 innings a year.
Giuseppe Franco–Girardi won Manager of the Year with a bunch of youngsters. That carries more weight than what Mattingly has done as a bench or hitting coach. Not only that, but the Marlins nearly made the playoffs.
Check that, there are no all around great managers*
Need an edit button
_Your closer is your best reliever – the guy who can shut the door, and he should be used at the most critical time._
That is not always true. Oftentimes, the setup guys in the 7th and 8th are the best relievers on the team.
Here are some examples:
- Mo was far better than Wettleland in ‘96
- Betancourt and Perez are both better than Borowski in Cleveland
- Zumaya is FAR better than Todd Jones in Detroit
- One could argue that Joba was much better than Mo down the stretch
- The old “Nasty Boys” of the Reds had Myers, Dibble, and Charlton. Myers was the closer, but Dibble was the most dominant of all of them.
That’s just off the top of my head. I’m sure I can find more if I go through every team’s roster.
Your argument has many holes.
There is no one on that list, or even a longer list that includes Bowa and Pena, that I would rather have over Joseph Torre. We are in for the same musical chairs of the 80’s and early 90’s if it is anyone other than Joe.
Wang and Melky for Johan
Yup, i would
.
*you think they would fall for that trade ?*
Torre has been blasted by a few for starting Wang last night, but let’s remember that it would not have been an issue with a healthy Ian Kennedy. Kennedy would have been a great fit for the playoff rotation if he didn’t have the back trouble. Starting Wang ended up being the wrong move, but he really didn’t have any other choice except for Mussina, who wouldn’t have been a popular pick. I think that having to start Jaret Wright in the face of elimination last year affected last night’s decision. He wanted to go down with his best last night instead of a mediocre pitcher like last year.
TexRangFan- I really don’t think your comments are necessary nor warranted (calling Alex Rodrigues A-FRAUD). Like many have said, were you watching the same game we were? Alex performed this year, the captain did not. As much as I love DJ and all he has done in postseasons past, he did not step it up this year.
But calling people names is just childish. Besides, what are you, a Texas Rangers fan, doing on a Yankees forum?
Pete, did you get that short list from page 5 of the Daily News? How about some real reporting?
Jon- “I just can’t understand how a manager goes from managing the best season of his career to losing his job in the span of 5 days.”
Um, I think it’s safe to say that 1998 was Torre’s best season as manager. 2007, not so much. Certainly not the worst year, but far from the best.
I still think it’s useless to argue over whether this is Torre’s “fault.” The team looked mediocre this postseason, and they looked awful last postseason. There is a problem, something’s going to change, and Torre is a symbol of that change.
He had 12 good years. It might be a raw deal for him, maybe he’s not completely to blame, but the manager has to take the hit on this one. If the ship sinks three years in a row, the captain takes the blame, even if the problem was actually with the engine room (and the hull design, and the navigation, and the…). That’s just the way it is.
DMan -
It’s not exactly a bullpen by committee, where people have interchangable roles. It’s a redefining of roles.
It’s saying: PitcherX is our best reliever, so he’s going to pitch in the most important situations. He would pitch every single time in the 9th inning up by a run or two – that’s not a committee.
My point is that being up by 3 runs is an arbitrary amount, and research has proven that the chances are slim that a team will score 3 runs no matter who is pitching. People just have it ingrained in their heads that 3 runs is a save, and you have to save your closer for that situation.
It’s amazing that an arbitrary stat that didn’t even exist for the first 70% of baseball’s lifetime dictates (incorrect) strategy.
if torre were smart and cashman were smart, they should come up with something, for example, Torre says he wants to manage for one more year, the yankees sign him for one more year and then he becomes what lasorda is to the dodgers. Torre will replace regie jackson doing whatever he does, torre can mentor girardi and or mattingly in 09 and help the yankees move into their new stadium. If they were to do this, this would mean there would be no ill feelings with mo/posada/and the rest of them, plus eventually, Torre gets his number retired and throws out the 1st pitch at new yankee stadium and we all live happily ever after…chances of that happening, none
“There is no one on that list, or even a longer list that includes Bowa and Pena, that I would rather have over Joseph Torre. We are in for the same musical chairs of the 80’s and early 90’s if it is anyone other than Joe.”
I’ll venture to guess that a good part of the “Torres Haters R Us” werent around for the 80’s.
We’ve been spoiled by the stability that Torre has brought this franchise and his ability to shield his clubhouse from all the garbage that can happen in the media capitol of the world…New York City.
People will finally realize what they’ve had for all these years once he is gone.
The next manager will be in for one heck of a surprise.
First things first. There’s no point in speculating what player moves will take place until 10 days after the World Series. Players will want to know who their leaders are and taking center stage will be decisions on the manager and his coaches.
If cooler heads prevail and Torre is retained, some coaching changes are in order possibly starting with the hitting, pitching, and bullpen coaches at the strong suggestion of the front office.
The braintrust will meet in Tampa very soon and start from there. Let’s fasten our seat belts and get ready for the busiest offseason in many years.
Wang and Melky for Johan is a no brainer, Twins would never go for it though.
My list would be Girardi or Bobby V and…that’s it. Mattingly aka Torre Jr. would be pointless, just keep Torre. Showalter and La Russa are arrogant idiots, that would be disastrous.
J-Dawg,
The Yankees are owned by George Steinbrenner, who wrote the book on dissension between owners and managers. He also likes to remind his managers who owns the team and who is in charge.
Torre handled some of the shots by the Boss brilliantly over the years. I’m not so sure Girardi would handle it so well.
“2007 was a successful season, we re-tooled and competed at the same time. Don’t let anybody else tell you otherwise.”
A very good point Global. We’re still at a cross-roads and next year may be as well. Once I calmed down a little after the game, I had that same thought, we rebuilt the farm and still got here. But we still should have gone further, a lot further.
So then Gabriel…who is our center fielder?
Cashman didnt field a good bull pen for Torre . He saved himsel this year because of the baby bombers that helped get us to post season.”DA BOss” said earlier this year he was on a short hook.get rid of jason farnsworth villone matsui is iffy too, maybe dh only
The Wang-Melky for Santana is laughable…that’s what the Twins would do, laugh right in your face. Any deal for Santana is going to involves Hughes, Kennedy, Horne, Joba, etc.
Kurticus: I’m with you. I think all the time how much I’d love to see Paulie be a hitting coach. I just don’t htink it would ever happen. And then we don’t get to hear him and Kay argue in the booth anymore. My favorite days are the days that Paul O’Neill and Bobby Mrucer are in the booth. But all the hitters talk about how great Kevin Long is. And even if they replace him as the hitting coach, he’s gotta stick around as A-Rod’s personal hitting/life coach.
Everyone forgets about Moose. I wouldn’t mind seeing him as the long man. I was the first person who said it would never work–he’s too dainty and too creature of habit. But last night he did a great job. I’d say have Hughes be the long man, but he’s too good. And I dont’ want to see Hughs or Kennedy be used as trading chips.
Giuseppe- Yeah, but Steinbrenner won’t be yelling at him next to the dugout like Jeffrey Loria did.
I also wouldn’t look too much into the arm troubles of the Marlins pitchers. It has nothing to do with Girardi, it just a coincidence, bad luck.
Manager: Don Mattingly
A-Rod = resign.
These two are very similar. Mattingly was the best player on the Yankees during his time but could never win a championship.
A-Rod is the best player of his time and can’t win a championship.
They are both cursed, however the two together cancel each other out for a championship win!
IT’s just a coincidence! I still cannot spell!!
New Rochelle- Yeah, but speculating on roster changes is so much fun!
Honestly, I’m actually kind of excited. 2008, and especially 2009, could see some big, positive changes for NY. I’m looking forward to seeing all the new kids, watching the bloated contracts shed, maybe see some new stars come in where needed, and hopefully watch ARod gradually approach Bonds. Good times.
Plus, there’s nothing else to talk about now. We need something to speculate about now that we don’t have any Yankees baseball to occupy our minds.
_Giuseppe Franco—Girardi won Manager of the Year with a bunch of youngsters. That carries more weight than what Mattingly has done as a bench or hitting coach. Not only that, but the Marlins nearly made the playoffs._
He also had such a problem with management that the team didn’t want him back for another season.
You should also review GW’s post above yours and note the abnormal amount of TJ surgeries Marlin pitchers had as a result of overuse from Joe Girardi the previous season.
Hey Peter, thanks for the blog. Hope you keep it up in the off season.
I felt Joe should have been fired last year for the AROD batting order fiasco. To me it showed a team, star and manger in disarray.
That said, Joe had a fine year this season. The stage for struggle was st when they announced Pavano as Opening Day starter. In a perfect world, Joe would be convinced to manage one final season, and invited to throw out the first pitch at the new stadium. But then George….., well you know.
Joe’s greatest legacy, besides all the winning of course, is his role in establishing 12 years of relative peace and calm on the Good Ship Steinbrenner.
george showed his true colors the other day. I feel many on the blog are too young to remember george in his heyday. This is am n who fired and rehired Billy numerous times. George tried to destroy Dave Winfield. The list goes on. Sure, he spends $, but that spending has irresponsible as much as it has been wise.
I hope that Cash of Hal or whoever ,can assert some influence and prevent George from reverting to past form, hiring someone like Larussa, valentine or Showalter. These guys are guilty of “over managing”, which is far worse than any “undermanaging” Torre may be guilty of.
If Torre does go, Give the job to Girardi and gt on with it.
I never thought these words would come out of my mouth, but here it goes :
I wish I was an Atlanta Braves fan.
Win the whole thing, lose in the playoffs, or don’t make them at all (the rarer of scenarios), you know that Bobby Cox is going to be there managing again. And are they worse for the wear because of it? Is there a manager out there that could have managed different results for Atlanta? Probably not.
I think ANYONE – Steinbrenner, Cashman, the writers, or we the fans – are IDIOTS if you think Torre needs to pack his things. It’s amazing what 12 years can do to someone’s memory. It’s as if 1982-1992 never existed. Our payroll, and the fact that you can’t have a 200+ million dollar franchise get knocked out in the first round three years in a row, has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING. Was Steinbrenner a penny pincher in the 80’s all of a sudden? He had an MVP in Mattingly, and bought any and anything he could. We had a revolving door of managers, and the most exciting thing about Yankees home games were the races for foul balls in the empty upper deck.
Steinbrenner would give Nolan Ryan $20 million on the spot right now if he announced his comeback. He’s still overpaying for “stars” like he did in the 80’s, only now we we are still able to compete because of our homegrown nucleus. But because of the payroll – which is what it is, by the way, because we REWARD our homegrown stars unlike every other team in this league – people act like Torre isn’t managing his a** off every year.
Welcome to the wonderful world of the Best of 5 series people. The best team does not always win! Torre’s record in the ALCS is 6-1. He is 4-2 in the World Series. The best of 7 allows a team to ride out a cold streak and truly manage. Not the Division Series. You do what you did all year and hope for the best.
First of all, let last night put an end to the Joba as a cloer/starter debate. We do NOT have an ace on this pitching staff. It doesn’t matter what the back of your bullpen is in October if by the time you get there you’re down by 4-5 runs. If he has a chance to be a dominant starter in this league, you jump at that and ask questions later.
As for the offense, look at the post-season heroes over the years other than Bernie and Jeter : Leyritz, Vizcaino, Sojo, Curtis, Brosius, etc. Posada has been brutal in the playoffs every year, O’Neill and Tino had more bad series than they did good.
My point is this : Some years someone on the playoff roster is going to step up, others they are not. The Yankees went on a rare tear in the late 90’s where for 12 out of 13 series, everything clicked. If someone didn’t deliver, the next guy would.
That’s what being a team is all about. You pick your teammate up. After all that Mariano has done for this team, someone needed to pick him up in the ‘04 ALCS. Didn’t happen. After all that Jeter has done for this team, someone needed to pick him up in this series. Didn’t happen.
I’m as ticked off as any Yankees fan. When you watch baseball 7 months a year, and for three straight years it all goes down the tube in 5 days, it is maddening. But to not bring Torre back, is not understanding the big picture.
You can’t manage “clutch”. You can only put the players in the position to “be clutch”.
This team made the playoffs with 5000 pitchers, and spotting everyone a double digit head start.
Bring in Larussa. Promote Donnie. Get Girardi out of the booth.
Say goodbye to the streak of playoff appearances.
Hey Global Warming, how about attributing a quote the next time you use one? Just a pet peeve of mine.
jon, I just think you also have to take other factors into account.
If you save your closer for only 2 runs or less, they may not pitch enough. Look at Mo’ at times this year when we were losing so much he wasn’t in games at all.
You also have to consider the other guys in your pen, your standings in the division, etc… there were plenty of 3 and 4 run leads our terrible at times bullpen blew and Mo’ had to come in.
“Are they really going to give a soon to be 37 year old cather a 3 year / 42 million dollar deal? I like Jorge just as much as the next person, but a deal like that seems to be a little short sighted”
it’s only short sighted if there is another viable alternative.
i’ll wait while you suggest one.
Did I mention that I have absolutely nothing to do at work today, except refresh Lohud? That may have something to do with all the speculating, at least on my end.
_I also wouldn’t look too much into the arm troubles of the Marlins pitchers. It has nothing to do with Girardi, it just a coincidence, bad luck._
You don’t know that to be a coincidence. Sounds to me like a trend.
Are you willing to take that chance with the Yankee young guns?
Not me.
“2007 was a successful season, we re-tooled and competed at the same time. Don’t let anybody else tell you otherwise.”
Global….exactly the point. Problem is everyone is overlooking it in the emotion of last night’s loss.
You can’t tear apart this team and try to start fresh. It already has a solid foundation. If you start making too many drastic changes all that was accomplished this year could be lost.
At the very least, Torre’s presence assures a clubhouse that is calm and free from distraction. Which is just what a young team needs.
Bringing another manager in for the sake of change opens the door for too many problems, so why do it?
The Yankees should take a page out of the ultra successful NY Knicks and make the GM the coach. So the new Manager would be Brian Cashman. Could you imagine?
“I often hear how Girardi is the best man for the job because of his success with the Marlins and managing a young team.
Does anyone forget that he also got fired after one season because he couldn’t get along with the front office? If he was that much of an asset to the organization, why did they fire him?”
Amen to that, GF.
I don’t understand the love affair with Girardi. While I value Girardi’s contributions as a player with the Yankees, I think there are people that give him far too much value as a manager. He doesn’t exactly have a huge track record to go by, which makes him no more of a good fit than Mattingly – which is one of the biggest criticisms Donnie gets when his name is considered to lead the Yankees. If you’re going to go with an individual that has limited or no expereince manging, I go with someone that knows tha Yankee organization inside-out. _Especially_ for an organization with the enormity and pressure of the NYY.
Showalter’s name shouldn’t even be on that list. Ugh.
And even though his name isn’t being mentioned now, Piniella has been rumopred in the past. I hope it doesn’t come up again, because Piniella hasn’t won anything in 20 years. How would that be a that a solution to replacing a manager who is being let go for the same reasons? Forget the Tampa Bay stint – Lou had Griffey and the Unit in theor prime, as well as a young ARod – and he never won anything with them. He was also given a talented Cubs staff this year that managed to get swept in the first round. Again, he hasn’t been mentioned – just a hypothetical thought from me based on his name coming up over the last two seasons.
I for one am all for Tony LaRussa, only because of Dave Duncan is a excellent pitching coach and can do wonders with the young pitching staff.
Jeffrey Loria is a horrible owner. Yelled at Girardi while he was MANAGING during a game. That’s just sad. The young guns will be on capped innings next year. That’s why a 6 man rotation isn’t out of the realm of possibility.
Sorry MJL, like Fred Thompson I’m pretty lazy.
That is such a media generated bunch of reporters in a room list of candidates.
No one knows anything. It looks like Torre is cooked, but it looked that way last season as well.
If Cashman is the person I think he is, I think he’s going to say to ownership that Joe should be given a chance with a young healthy pitching staff who was brought up to the majors with him as the manager. Cashman is going to talk about how they had no starting pitchers in the beginning of the season and how the decline of Mussina and Clemens was age related, not Torre related.
I have to believe there is a part of the Yankee braintrust that thinks the idea of one more season of Joe closing out the old stadium is too good a story to pass up. They know what they get with Joe. He will manage the team to the playoffs and if the players show up in the playoffs next season, it’s a different story.
I think all lists like the one Pete posted is make more of a case for Joe Torre staying than anything.
I woke up this morning and I thought about how I loved this team this year. I’d rather see Posada, Mo, Arod, Pettite for another year with Joe managing than see the “new Yankees”. Those are my guys. Those are the guys I’m willing to live and die with. They haven’t won a championship in awhile, but neither has the majority of major league teams.
I’m a fan and I want to win a world series, but I also love the guys that are on this team. Yeah, they drive me crazy, but they’ve also earned my respect and admiration. That includes Joe Torre.
What young talented player has Joe Torre seriously improperly developed at the major league level? Juan Rivera? I can’t think of anyone.
Cano, Wang, Melky, Joba, Phil, Shelley all have all come up during Torre’s reign and all have become solid major league ballplayers. He’s done nothing to stunt their growth and I think in the case of Melky, there was a guy who had a major league flameout as a rookie and was able to come back to this team and contribute. Torre’s trust in him has something to do with that.
If Torre’s responsible for all the bad, he’s also resposible for some of the good and the young players who have great talent are showing it under his tutelage.
They relied on a young pitcher in Wang to deliver this series win and they lost because of that faith. Maybe Wang learns from this. I certainly think Torre is the right man to teach him how to come back from this awful post season where Wang submarined the team in 2 starts.
I give Joe another year. He gets my team to the Playoffs every season. There is no way to know that any of those names on that list can even approach that success. At least with Joe, I know we’re getting to the post season next year and we’re getting there with an actual home grown #1 starter in Joba. If Joe’s return means Pettite comes back, then bring Joe back. We need Andy to team up with Joba, Phil, IPK and Wang. That rotation will win a world series people and I think they will win one for Joe Torre.
Enough with the” curse talk” “Bawston” was stupid to buy it for 86 yrs. We are more intelligentt than that collectively.
The Yankees have done nothing to be cursed, ever period.
We need a good pitching and hitting coach,as long as Big Stein is shopping.Joe was a sitting duck this year,with these pitchers(not joba Phil or Ian)and ineffective hit and pitch coaches
Just a random thought here. One of the things in Ian McLellan’s interview with Steinbrenner was his absoluteness regarding re-signing ARod. What if ARod says he will absolutely re-sign as long as Torre is given another year? Is that totally outside the realm of possibility?
WE NEED HELP!!!
(I think that was the reporter’s name, I’m too lazy right now to look it up. Ian Something anyway.)
Why does it matter so much to give Torre another year?
He has to go some time. This year, next year, either way he’s gone soon.
At this point, I don’t see how anybody could have a vehemently strong opinion one way or another (other than blind loyaly/hatred). 12 postseasons certainly makes a good argument for another year. 3 horrid October dismissals also makes a pretty decent argument to let him go.
It is what it is. As long as the situation is handled well, I don’t think it’s awful if Torre leaves. He’s going to leave soon, Mattingly will eventually be the manager. When those things happens is up in the air, but both seem inevitable. At this point, all I want is a clean transition.
If Torre does not come back, then Joe G, as manager, would be a big problem. First, he killed his young pitching staff. All need surgery this year. We are moving to 3 young pitcher in the rotation and some in the pen. Looks like a problem.
Second, He flys off the handle too much, at least he did in Fla. The whole front office was glad to see him go, not just the owner. Third, he won manager of the year in the NL, which of course, you can’t compare to the AL. So much easier to manage in the NL. Fourth, He was a teammate of many of the guys on the team and now they have to take orders from him??? Not going to happen. I can see the first time he benches DJ or takes out Posada. That is a very very difficult situation.
Giuseppe- Maybe all of the arm troubles of the Marlins’ pitchers are something to look at, maybe not. My point is this, picking out a manager is just like making a pick in the NFL Draft. There’s going to be good and bad about every candidate out there. The whole answer is finding someone whose good substantially outweighs his bad. There’s not a perfect candidate out there.
_Jeffrey Loria is a horrible owner. Yelled at Girardi while he was MANAGING during a game. That’s just sad. The young guns will be on capped innings next year. That’s why a 6 man rotation isn’t out of the realm of possibility._
Not sure you’ve been paying attention the last 30+ years, but Steinbrenner owns this team and is never afraid of ripping his managers in the media.
Granted, he’s slowed down in recent years, but the fact that he’s been wanting to run Torre out of town after going to the postseason every year since he was hired tells you that the old Steinbrenner still rears his ugly head on occasion.
There is also no chance they will revert to a six-man rotation next season. It throws the pitchers out of whack. Torre only did it in September to give them extra days off to rest up for the postseason.
Bottom line is that AROD needs to stay.
The yanks are at a crucial crossroads right now. It is imperative that the next manager be someone younger like Girardi. We must hope that George does not revert to past form.
The core of the 95-00 team was built through draft and trade. Guys like Tino, Oneill, Jeter, Bernie, Brosius, Mo, Petite etc were not makin mucho$ at that time. The team saved the FA money for the pithing staff.
Things started to change when the overpaid for Giambi in 01.
Then they traded a bargain in Soriano for AROD. Last year , out of desperation they trade for an overpriced Abreu.
Granted ,they all have produced in their own way, but the pattern was set.
What to do now?
I am tron About AROD. knowing the financial realities of the game, it makes sense for The Yankees to be the team to pay him. Yet, I find it difficuly to justify 30 + Mill for someone who strikes out looking against Paul Byrd.
As much as we all love Jorge and MO, The notion that they would not play for the Yanks if Torre is fird is absurd. They play for $, not for Joe. Mo deserves the $; Posada? Not so sure. He is 36 after all.
The future is bright and their names are Joba, Phil, Robby, Melky, Ian, Shelley.
hmmmm,
I wish I had a suggestion for a replacement. I don’t, partly because I’m not sure who is available. I know Pudge is off the market (not that i wanted him either). I would be willing to have Molina as the full time cather next year until someone better becomes available or one of the catchers in the system are ready (I know they’re all young). Obviosuly we lose offense with Molina. But we gain in the actual cathing category and with our young pitchers I think that’s important. Not a perfect solution, but neither is giving Jorge 3 years.
“I am tron About AROD. knowing the financial realities of the game, it makes sense for The Yankees to be the team to pay him. Yet, I find it difficuly to justify 30 + Mill for someone who strikes out looking against Paul Byrd.”
if only we could get a player who has never struck out.
The manager will make little difference if the construction of the roster doesn’t change. However the contracts of existing players might prevent the change needed. If you were a GM, would you take on Giambi or his contract without the Yankees eating a significant portion?
As I mentioned in a post last night – alleged poor health or not, Steinbrenner is not an idiot. AND he is going to have plenty of people whispering in his ear during all these decisions.
Consider this – NY hosts the allstar game next year and completes a final season in the current stadium. They then open a new stadium the following year. George has always put a premium on “putting fannies in the seats”, and he will need/strive to do that more than ever over the next year. He is not going to dismantle the club while this is happening. All of the players that are being suggested to be aftermath of this loss are the ones that George is going to want representing his team now more than ever. The lifelong Yankee veterans (Mo, Posada, Pettitte) and the marquee slugger (ARod). If Steinbrenner and/or his cronies wrest control back from Cashman, the one thing we as a fan base can see a positive is that they will do whatever they can to keep those guys. And I think George has not only learned the value of keeping your homegrown players, I think he has become enamored with some of these young guys in the meantime. We’re not going to return to the days of dumping prospects for overpriced free agents/trades. We may see a big splash here or there, but no more of this giving up the farm to other clubs. For that matter, when/where has it been said that Cash’s job is safe still?
On that note, for everyone that wants Santana so badly – did you look at his numbers this past year? Nothing like his Cy Young numbers of the previous years. He’s a tremendous talent, but I have a deep suspicion that he would be the next star pitcher who all of a sudden loses his talent when he becomes a Yankee.
Anyway, for the reasons I just mentioned, I don’t see a house-cleaning doomsday in order. Some changes, yes – but I see those largely in the management staff.
_Giuseppe- Maybe all of the arm troubles of the Marlins’ pitchers are something to look at, maybe not. My point is this, picking out a manager is just like making a pick in the NFL Draft. There’s going to be good and bad about every candidate out there. The whole answer is finding someone whose good substantially outweighs his bad. There’s not a perfect candidate out there._
We agree on that. My overall point is that I don’t see Girardi as the savior that many others here do.
If the Yanks continue to inject youth and stack the rotation with guys who will eat innings, it makes the manager look a lot smarter because he won’t have to go to the pen nearly as often.
Verducci’s mailbag a few weeks ago explains it perfectly:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....bag/1.html
CountryClub- Yadier Molina would be a good possibility for a catcher, but it’s doubtful that St. Louis would trade him. Yadier’s arm is the best and he completely shuts down the other team’s running game. Sounds like he would be perfect to thwart the Angels.
PITCHING COACH !!! hITTING COACH!!! THAT’S WHAT WE NEED NEXT SEASON,wE HAVE THE TALENT,JUST DEVELOPE THEM,THAT’S COACHING!!!!
Suzy had a meltdown last night on the air…you have to get past Sterling’s eulogoy first
http://podcast.wcbs880.com/wcbs/707966.mp3
1. The Yanks talk to the Mets about Willie Randolph.
2. The Mets tell Willie the Yanks want him to manage them.
3. The Mets ask Willie if he is willing to accept a buyout to be free to become the Yanks manager.
4. Willie says yes, is bought out, and becomes the Yanks manager. The Mets either sign a manager or make Manny Acta the manager for 2008 only with the chance for him to stay manager in 2009 if the Mets do well in ‘08. If Acta does well in 2008-9, he gets a multiyear contract or contract extension.
I know Willie is signed to be the Mets’ manager through 2009, but I don’t know for how much. I recall reading somewhere that his remaining contract is around $8M ($4M/yr.) Let’s say Willie’s remaining contract is $8M ($4M/yr.) The Mets could offer Willie a $1M buyout ($500K/yr. or lump sum, his choice lotto style), then once Willie is bought out, he signs with the Yanks for 2 years (through 2009) for $7M ($3.5M/yr. with bonuses as I assume Torre made bonuses. If Torre didn’t, whatever.)
Everyone’s happy. The Yanks have the perfect successor to Joe, no acrimony. The Mets get rid of Willie and have who they really want in there (as I truly believe Minaya and The Wilpons don’t want Willie managing them.) Willie manages the Yanks and stays in N.Y., no firing, just let’s make everyone happy. If Torre signed on to be the Mets manager, more power to him, it’d be a trip to see him back in a Mets uniform, still in N.Y., and across the field from Willie, and to see Willie vs. Joe 6X/yr. for at least 2 years assuming Torre signed on with the Mets for 2 years. Willie and Joe manage in their respective teams’ new stadiums in 2009. Johann Santana could be pitching the first game at either new stadium/ for either new team Opening Day 2009.
Baseball fans somehow think the tactics and strategies of managing a baseball team are full of intricacies and complexities, etc.
They make it out like its coaching a football team. But its not.
There are no 300 page play books in baseball. There is too much random chance involved to script out the first 20 plays you run or to scheme formations, etc. It doesn’t work that way.
Managing a baseball team in terms of tactics and strategy isn’t like coaching in other team sports. The main thing the manager needs to do, especially in New York, is communicate with the players and keep them calm.
Manager who think they are brilliant tacticians hurt their teams as much as help them quite often.
Just see Lou Pinella’s brilliance in pulling Zambrano in game 1 of the playoffs to save him for a game four that never happenned.
And wasn’t Pinella the guy everyone wanted to replace torre with last year?
Catya, we could do without the all caps, thanks.
If George really has as much influence as has been recently reported, and bearing in mind Hank Steinbrenner’s recent comment, do not be surprised if Torre is brought back on a three-year deal, with his successor already named (Don Mattingly). That keeps the vultures overhead, which is the Steinbrenner way, and at the same time, appeases the 4.2M fannies that are WAY more important than any other factor in this decision.
Tommy Mo deserves the money, but Jorge doesn’t based on age?? Mo is older than Jorge! They’ve both been paid alot of money by the Yankees. Jorge at least isn’t talking about it. on the other hand Mo is saying they’ve had their chance.
I hate the “let A-Rod” walk comments, by the same guys who still call DJ clutch. Guys, DJ was godawful. Not medicore, not disappointing, not bad, but flat-out god awful. Be honest with yourselves. Nobody is clutch when you get bounced in the first round 3 years in a row. Guys, ‘00 is a long time ago. I like everyone on the team, but hate the “throw A-Rod under the bus” mentality when DJ gets a free pass. That’s so 2006. Enough already…..the blame needs to get spread around. To me the real issue is Wang, who wet the bed 2 starts…..
The funny thing people always forget is baseball is two things: Its a business and its entertainment.
Well the yankees make a ton of money and the fans are thoroughly entertained. Wouldn’t you call the yankees a success then? I mean we don’t win every year, but we ahve won and we will win again.
This whole Steinbrenner slogan of winning is second to breathing is garbage. Enjoy the game, and when we do win again soak it in. Anytime someone tells me the yankees are failures I just want to laugh in their face. Get a clue
A lot hinges on ARod. If ARod stays, Posada’s offense becomes a bit more expendable. If ARod goes, Posada’s offense is extremely important to keep.
I guess we can assume Giambi’s career is done, based on this past season, but it may not be. If the Yankees somehow manage to “unload” him, that’s more offense lost, in OBP alone. Then some people are saying Matsui could be expendable. He’s a 100-rbi, as is Abreu. The various replacement names bandied about here are all lesser offensively. You can’t let everyone go. And just please remember all the debate on how Mientkiewicz and Phillips were not prototypical first basemen, i.e., not power guys. And Cabrera is not a power guy and Cano is not a power guy.
I don’t pretend to have answers or know exactly what might be available or how tinkering might solve some of the problems. I’m just sayin’ a lot of the decisions to be made are interdependent. And if everyone who could walk does walk, the Yankees are not going to have an easy time of it.
What about Trey Hillman? Is he under consideration? I know that Cashman loves him and that he’s coming back to the States.
I’m not saying I think he should be looked at, just wonder if he’ll be on the list.
“Just a random thought here. One of the things in Ian McLellan’s interview with Steinbrenner was his absoluteness regarding re-signing ARod. What if ARod says he will absolutely re-sign as long as Torre is given another year? Is that totally outside the realm of possibility?”
Doreen – I mentioned this last night as well. I’m glad I’m not the only one who was thinking this, and I’m sure the front office is aware of this factor as well.
Now I’m not convinced that ARod is a “Torre guy”, but whether it is keeping Torre, hiring Mattingly, or naming Jerry Lewis as the next manager – ARod could really influence the managerial decisions. Brian Cashman may have stated that the Yankees would not pursue ARod as a free agent, but first of all, Cash doesn’t own the team. Second, I don’t believe Cashman when he says that either.
wang is not an ace,He shouldn’t be paid or played as one.
He personally cost us 2 of he 4 games.
I wonder if Wang is hurt and didn’t tell anyone? A lot of times the first sign of injury isn’t loss of velocity but loss of command.
Just a few random thoughts:
1)For everone saying that Girardi abused the kinds arms, Scott Olsen who was a rookie last year pitched the most innings out of the kids. He pitched 180IPS last year and 176 this year and did not get hurt.
2)I can’t understand why people want to get rid of players like Matsui, move Jeter down the lineup etc. Please look at there career averages and what they did this year and you will see no difference.
3) There is no way Minnesota is trading Johan Santana (who by the way had a WHIP of 1.07 and an ERA of 3.33 in his so called horrible year) for Melky and Wang. Minnesota is not that stupid. Johan isn’t coming unless Hughes or Joba is leaving.
4) Pitching wins series. You are not gonna win any series if two of your starters give up 15 runs in 5 innings. It just ain’t gonna happen no matter what the offense does.
5) Firing the hitting coach wouldn’t make much sense since the Yankees led the league in HR’s, BA, Runs Scored and most every other offensive category with Kevin Long as hitting coach.
Just my thoughts.
The #1 reason the yankees lost to the Indians is _WANG._ He is the ace of this staff. 2 19 _regular_ season game winner and he pitched worse than Kei Igawa.
EdWhitson Agreed, DJ gets a free pass for things he did 7 years ago. DJ did NOTHING this post season, I take that back. He hit into 3 game KILLING rallies!!
Game one, when he *ALWAYS* bunts with runners on first and second no outs, he hits away!! and grounds into a game killing dp.
If Alex had the post season that Jeter did, everyone would be hanging Alex by the bat outside.
The #1 reason the yankees lost to the Indians is *WANG.* He is the ace of this staff. 2 19 *regular* season game winner and he pitched worse than Kei Igawa.
CB he was hitting 96 on the gun last night.
*jennifer 27 in 07*
27 in 3007.
what do you guys think of Larry Bowa or Pena? The base coaches. They probably already have the players respect, and are both experienced managers
I think Willie would accept the buyout cuz he comes off like the kind of guy who wouldn’t want to be somewhere where he is not 100% wanted. I honestly don’t see Torre being irked by it. In a dream world, Mattingly becomes manager with Torre as his ultra-bench coach-mentor. I don’t know -what’s wrong with that? Players move to less taxing positions when they get older to make room for young players better at their positions, why not managers? Cito Gaston was the manager for Toronto’s two World Champion teams and he was Toronto’s bench coach a few years after that. Tom Kelly became a scout/ talent evaluator. Pinella although younger became a general manager who dealt Paul O’Neill to us
If Torre wants to keep his hand in baseball, I think he could do so with the Yanks or anyone.
It could even be arranged where the Mets buy out Willie on a Monday, the Yanks hire Willie on a Tuesday, and Willie gives a press conference wearing a Yankee jersey and cap again on a Wednesday. Mets fans wouldn’t care and classy ones would wish him luck. Yankee fans would sign with relief at the though of Willie taking the helm instead of Showalter, Valentine, or even Mattingly cuz while we all love Donnie Baseball, he has no experience managing a team whereas Willie has three years of managing experience plus all the years of 3B coaching, assistant general managing, and playing for the Yankees including the so-called “dynasty years”. Don could be Willie’s bench coach and who else would Willie want as his right-hand man? Don would have two more years of bench-coaching under his belt.
I forgot to fix it.
If Wang was even close to his career average in either of his starts, the series might have been different.
NO TO WILLIE NO NO NO NO!!
The Willie scenario is too far-fetched.
Leading the league in runs for the regular season hasn’t spilled over to postseason play ,we slump, not a few players the whole team at the same time,WHY=coaching? Just a thought!!!!
10 Thing I would do.
1.If Torre goes(which I think he is a great clubhouse coach but not a motivator)Why not Pena? Did pretty good in K.C. and helped Jorge alot last year.
2.Get rid of anyone who gives us an ultimatum(Torre coaches I stay crap) No one is bigger than the team.
3.Get rid of Giambi,even if we have to eat 70% of the remaining salary. Call Oakland or Anaheim(from california).Cashman has been trying to unload him for 2 years now and Giambi refuses to sign off on it. Tell him to sign or stay home with Pavano.
4.If A-rod doesnt sign an extension with the existing deal we have, let him go. I know no one can replace him but some of you sound like rockies fans, just happy to make playoffs.
He hasnt done anything to help avoid the last 3 years debacle.
5.No Santana. Yes to Peavy.
6.Find a taker for Matsui and keep Damon in left.
7.D.H. Duncan
8.Call Philly or Washington and see if they will take Moose.
9.Blow up the bullpen.
10.Do not resign Abreu,use the cash for Rowand,Melky right field.
Jennifer,
I saw all of his gun readings. But again, injuries in pitchers often manifest themselves as loss of command/ control first not loss of velocity.
No idea if that’s the case. Otherwise he was probably anxious and overthrowing preventing his ball from sinking.
Why no updates?
I’m hearing that yankee front office was not happy with how Joe used Joba in game 3.
Torre as a bench coach would be bad for the next manager. Players might look to him instead of their new leader.
Imagine you replaced your boss, but they kept your boss around. Who would your employees look to? Especially if your old boss was a beloved figure?
Wouldn’t work. The Yankees need a clean break within the clubhouse from Torre if he is not manager.
Mike & Mad Dog are (appropriately) blasting the Yankee front office for the story that Torre was overruled on who the starting pitcher was going to be last night.
Wolf -
Right. I don’t know where ARod falls in the loyalty category, but bottom-line is if George really, really wants ARod, then ARod maybe has some leverage. (Probably not, but for argument’s sake, anyway.) I also never believe any of Cashman’s proclamations. He never ever gives away his position. If ARod’s all about the money, then NY has the most, and they win. If it’s about peripheral things it’s not so cut-and-dried.
Im willing to bet Mo will not be back.
CB they commented on the gun readings of 96.
I’m shocked that Crazy dog isn’t making fun of Suzy crying. Said he didn’t have a problem with that. I didn’t either, she was showing the same emotion that everyone else was at that point. She also just walking out of a room that everyone was emotional in.
The Yankees have won only 6 of the 26 World Series when a Republican was in office, the last championship coming back when Eisenhower was in office back in 56 and 58. If that isnt reason enough to vote Democrat in the upcoming election, I dont know what is. And we have lost heartbreaking World Series during the Republicans reign like in 1960 with Mazeroski and 81 being up 2-0 and blowing the lead and 2001 self explanatory.
Joe Torre is not getting a 3 year contract to manage the Yankees. Not happening.
Brian Cashman has no say in this. This is going to be George’s call. He decides who manages the team. Its George’s team, not Cashman’s.
George Steinbrenner has chosen EVERY manager (both the good and bad choices) for the Yankees since he has owned the team. Yes, even when he was under suspension by MLB, he had to approve (with MLB’s approval) managerial choices.
Let’s think logically for a moment. Joe Torre is no longer under contract with the Yankees. Do you really think the Yankees (ie: Steinbrenner) is going to give him a THREE year contract AND a raise?
Its not going to happen.
Everyone associated with the Yankees, from beat writers on down, know its over. Just look at his PC conference last night. He talked about the team in the PAST TENSE.
Its over. Its time to get over it, move forward, and think ahead.
He’s done a great job. He knows AND the Yankees know its to for both parties to move on.
Its happening and all the whining in the world isn’t going to change it.
Yes, Tampa Yankee. That explains everything.
Just like Kentucky Basketball winning the tourney is the reason why the Yanks won many of their championships the same season.
Yes, the Yankees hitting coach suddenly forgot how to coach during this 4 game series against the Indians makes perfect sense to me. Also I mentioned this earlier on another post but in game 1 the Yankees had 11 baserunners in yesterday’s game they had 15!
As I keep repeating you can not win ballgames when your starting pitchers give up 15 runs in 5 innings of work.
Out of that list of potential managers, I don’t see a better choice than Mattingly. He can be a puppet for Cashman like Francona is in Boston, and that’s what I think we need.
Girardi is by far the least appealing of the choices. His problems with the Marlins upper management are troublesome, as is his approach to young pitchers (I’d have nightmares of him risking Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain ind stupid spots like he did Josh Johnson after the 82 minute rain delay).
Well to the one who said Pudge can replace Jorge, his contract was just picked up. So he’s out.
Willie Randolph managing the Yankees? That has to be a joke.
Yes, what a great idea. Hire a guy who presided over the SECOND biggest choke in baseball history. Makes a lot of sense to me.
Not going to happen. Not the least of which is there are better candidates out there who aren’t under contract for another 2 years.
Raymagnetic the Yanks don’t have to trade for Johann Santana, they could sign Santana after next year and would have plenty of money to do so.
Let’s say Pettitte picks up his free money i.e. his $16M player’s option for 2008 and retires after 2008, and Mussina is let go of after 2008. That’s $16M + $11M = $27M cleared towards signing Santana.
Santana/ Wang/ Chamberlain/ Hughes/ Kennedy or some other guy in the fifth starter slot in 2009
Also what if Jose Tabata or Austin Jackson could take over RF from Abreu in ‘09 (assuming the Yanks pick up Abreu’s $16M club option for 2008)? That’s $16M (Abreu’s 2008 club option) minus the rookie minimum (I think $381K) paid to Tabata or Jackson cleared towards signing Santana.
von Steingrabber may have signed off on every manager, but please don’t believe for a minute that George has any clue about who to hire. It all depends on who gets his ear and has the most influence. Last year it was Cashman and Steve Swindell. When Torre was hired, it certainly wasn’t George’s idea.
The Tigers picking up Pudge’s option has just set the market for catchers.
It starts at 13 million now.
So, if you are the Yankees, you offer 2 years/26 million to Posada and hope he takes it. If he wants more years, or more money, you have to pass.
Can’t give a 3 year/40 million dollar deal to a 36 year old catcher.
Of all the negotiations heading into the off-season, the Posada one is the trickiest. Very, very tough call if he wants 3 years and more than 13 per year.
SJ I agree with you but I would add a third year club or mutual option to see if that help out at all
“The #1 reason the yankees lost to the Indians is WANG. He is the ace of this staff. 2 19 regular season game winner and he pitched worse than Kei Igawa.”
Can people please stop acting like the 19 wins mean a thing? Wins are a team stat and are not a significant indicator of Wang’s performances. He’s a groundball pitcher that has not out pitch. He is completely dependent on getting groundballs and hoping the defense can field them. He will never be a great pitcher and will never be a reliable option unless he somehow learns to strike people out.
I really don’t see ARod going to the plate for Torre in his contract negotiations.
There’s just no way. I’m sure ARod likes Torre, but that’s a bit much, and Arod isn’t one of the 96-00 guys you would expect a move like that to come from. Not to mention that Boras would explode at the notion.
The ARod thing is going to come down to whether ARod is sick of NY or not. If it’s about money, I can’t imagine anybody can outbid NY, unless NY gets stupid and goes all self-righteous on us. Otherwise, NY should throw all the money in the world at ARod.
If he goes, it’ll be because he doesn’t want to deal with NY any more. And by now, there’s really no way of telling what his position is on all that. It’s 50/50 at this point.
Okay more random thoughts:
1)Why wouldn’t the Yankees pick up the 1 year option on Abreu? Rowand had a career year and he was playing in an extreme hitters park half of the year. Secondly the Yankees have two young outfielders in the minors who are extremely talented and should be ready for the Bx. in 2009. Why on earth would they want to sign Rowand to a multi-year contract when they have two youngsters waiting in the wings?
2)Why do you people think other teams are going to be so willing to let go of their number 1 starters and trade them to the Yankees? On top of that in order to get one of these number 1 starter types Hughes or Joba will be gone therefore the Yankees will get a pitcher making millions more than one of the youngsters and will probably not be any better than Hughes or Joba will be in the near future.
“Raymagnetic the Yanks don’t have to trade for Johann Santana, they could sign Santana after next year and would have plenty of money to do so.”
There is no way the Twins allow Santana to walk without getting something back. If they can’t re-sign him he’ll definitely be traded.
Torre was Arthur Richman’s idea. George still made the decision to hire him.
Let’s not act like ungrateful punks. George Steinbrenner has given Yankee fans EVERYTHING they could have possibly dreamed of during his ownership reign.
He’s not a dummy. Far from it. He’s a volatile guy who wants to win. Man, what a TERRIBLE trait (from a fan perspective) for a owner.
The guy does everything to try and put a winner on the field and people want to rip him. That’s pretty funny.
Oh, by the way, George had one other suggestion in 2003. He told Brian Cashman to sign David Ortiz after he was released by the Twins.
Cashman said they had Giambi but, George didn’t care. He said it was ok for Cashman to sign Ortiz and he signed off on it. Cashman passed.
Think about how history would have changed if Cashman listened to Steinbrenner.
Look, George is not angel. Never has been, never will be.
But, he is the best owner, next to Wellington Mara, this city has EVER had for its sports franchises.
The good FAR outweighs the bad with Steinbrenner. Always has, always will.
Re: Johann Santana
I know the Yanks don’t have to trade for Santana. I’ve seen numerous posters suggesting that the Yanks go for Santana and I don’t think it’s a good idea. I agree with you about the Yanks picking up Abreu’s option. Seems like a no brainer to me.
I think 2 years/ $15 mill-per would work, with a Pettitte-like option for a 3rd year thrown in.
The Jorge talks could definitely get dicey, especially with the Torre situation. I really like Jorge, and I would be so disappointed if he left with bad blood. He’s was upset with how Bernie was treated this year, and if Torre gets The Steinbrenner Treatment I think he could leave under a heavy cloud. The guy has been one of the cornerstones of the Yankees for so long, it would just be tragic to see him leave angry at the organization.
It could be a very delicate negotiation.
“Just like Kentucky Basketball winning the tourney is the reason why the Yanks won many of their championships the same season.”
Hey now! I’m a KY alumnus and I love that stat! LOL
Just kidding – I see your point and it’s one of those coincidental things that can come to and end at anytime.
Drew -
Thanks for the audio clip of Suzyn. I don’t dislike her as some of you do. Probably because I admire a woman who can make her way in a male-dominated profession. But I digress. She humanized the moment. On YES, you had 3 stalwart guys all being ultra-professional (5 if you count Paul & Michael Kay), and analytical. It’s early and so I’m sure not all personal decisions have been made, but I would not be surprised if this is it for Mo, Jorge and Andy (again), certainly for Clemens and likely for ARod (though he is not from that core). With Bernie already gone, Jeter is the only man standing from the early “dynasty.” It is the end of an era, and even though we could be on the verge of something very new and exciting with the youngsters (I hate that word), there will be growing pains involved.
I think the Yanks give Joe gets a one year deal while at the same time announcing that Mattingly will be the manager in 2009. Maybe Joe gets a 3 year contract as Yankee advisor, so he can be moved around as needed, but only one year to manage. If the team doesn’t respond, Joe resigns managing for “health reasons”.
Donnie has to be the choice, since that will help keep the free agents, and he has earned the respect of the players. We may lose Guidry, and I don’t know how this would impact the pitching staff. I don’t want Kerrigan, but the guy from the minor leagues was around in Sept., and he has a connection with the young pitchers.
I was upset at Joe last night, since about the 6th inning, he just seemed more concerned with getting his guys in the game, than actually winning. Taking out Shelley who is hitting and replacing him with Giambi was stupid. Giambi could not hit a 3 run HR with no one on base. Save Jason for a time when his ab could mean something.
Get rid of Abreu. His speed is great, but his lack of agressiveness near the wall is just too much. Give me someone who takes it personal if a ball falls safely in his territory. I would not be adverse to seeing Shelley play right. We have to see if his hitting can stand up to a regular season.
Resign Posada, Rivera, Arod, Molina, Minky.
I actually like the core of this team. At the end of the season we actually had a bench which we could count on. I think this team will do very well next year. In a five game playoff, you have to have some luck, and one of the ways to get that luck is to have home field advantage. With a decent start next year, we could be in the drivers seat all year long.
If I was Cashman, I’d offer Wang/Horne/Jackson or Tabata for Santana. He’s the best pitcher in baseball, if he’s available we need to at least make a competitive offer.
some one tell me…
might it be better if Torre goes?
it’s clear the dynasty is over. i’m a big fan of his and i don’t think it’s his fault. but times are changing. the yankees are not goiNg to win with the current setup. if things stay the same, whats to say we are going to win a 5 game series against next years up and coming youth team of the year. SAME WAY WE LOST TO DET, CLE.
if you know what i mean.
gone are the glory days of 96-00
i think maybe change is in order – if not torre – then somewhere.
AM I WRONG????
I think most of the Santana talk is about 2009. Unless Tampa forces him, there’s no way Cashman gives up Hughes or Joba for anybody, ever. But if Santana is on the free market in 2009, with Pettitte and maybe Moose out of the game, NY almost certainly goes after him.
The Twins are ACTIVELY shopping Johan Santana. Its probably a 90% chance he is in another uniform next season.
Do the Yankees have what it takes to trade for him? Not unless Joba is in the deal and I wouldn’t trade Joba.
I’d pick up Abreu’s option. He’s a good player, you are still two (at least) years away from Austin Jackson and/or Jose Tabata, and he represents a good, one year bridge in RF.
As far as ALL the available players (Arod, Pettitte, Rivera and Posada) are concerned, NONE of them are making their future decisions based on Joe Torre. And, guess what? Joe Torre wouldn’t want them to. Its not how it works in sports these days.
Each guy will make a decision that makes sense for themselves and their families. Its not little league. Its a big money, high stakes business. Guys are going to do what’s right for themselves.
Cal Ripken had a chance to leave the Orioles, after they FIRED his father, in his walk year. He chose to stay, bad feelings his dad had for the organization be damned.
Players make decisions based on money, what they want to do, and money, in that order.
Passing along an email from a friend from Cleveland:
“Baseball is a funny game (reduced to luck) in a 5 game series. And, Steinbrenner is an a$*hole. NY could have easily won game 2 and we would be playing game 5 in CLE on Wed. It had nothing to do w/ Torre. It had to do w/ an incomplete pitching staff. This NY looks like the 1990’s Indians – a boat load of hitting and spotty and old starting pitching. They have been in the playoff for the last 13 – 14 yrs. That’s what $200 M buys you. Over 160 games the luck is worked out and the best/(most often best financed) teams are still standing. 5 and 7 game series’ and we are back to luck/pitching/maturity/talent in that order….Hope the tribe never puts Borowski back in a ballgame for the rest of the playoffs. He almost handed over the game. Any good hitter owns that guy. He got a bunch of saves from mediocre players on mediocre teams.”
“4.If A-rod doesnt sign an extension with the existing deal we have, let him go. I know no one can replace him but some of you sound like rockies fans, just happy to make playoffs.
He hasnt done anything to help avoid the last 3 years debacle.”
it’s better than NOT making the playoffs, which is what will happen next year if A-Rod leaves.
SJ44
I mostly lurk here, but just wanted to say – you’re by far the best poster here.
Carry on.
Steinbrenner is also a criminal, check that, he recieved a presedential pardon. He held a press conference to tell the world that he was beat up by a pair of dodger fans, he paid a freak to get some “dirt” on his best player, he ran tony kubek, jim kaat, don zimmer, mel stottelemyr and endless others. Oh yeah, than there is Ken Phelleps
The Steinbrenner revisionist history going on is amazing.
How happy were yankees fans with Steinbrenner in the 1980’s?
How about the way he sabotaged the team in the early 1990’s during his suspension?
There’s this idea going around that Steinbrenner is the be all and end all of owners. That he’s above reproach and the perfect owner because he spends a lot of money.
It’s as if he’s not a businessman first and foremost.
He’s created an organization in which the Tampa faction is set up to undermine the new york faction. That’s been held in check becasue of their success on the field these past 12 years. Torre was no small part of quelling the vultures in tampa.
The fundamental problem with this team was the ongoing lack of young talent over the past 10 years. From 1995-2003 the yankees had the worst amateur draft in all of baseball. That created the need for the Pavano’s of the world.
It was Steinbrenner who allowed those people to run the draft despite not producing any results at all.
Yes he’s “given us” everything.
As much as I wouldn’t want to do it, you’d have to consider trading Joba for Santana. Joba is a young talented pitcher full of potential, but injuries derail guys like that all the time. Santana is the clear cut best pitcher in the game and has been for 3 or 4 years now.
OK, so Joe Torre has done great things in NY. Sure, some of his strategies are open to question and his bullpen use is mortifying. He also represents the old guard and its remnants on the current team (Jeter, Posada, Mariano, Pettitte).
He probably should get the majority of the kudos for rallying the team and dominating the second half.
This is a tough decision, but one that Steinbrenner will easily make. I think Torre has seen better days and you all can say whatever you want to about the difficulty of managing in NY, but sooner or later the man has to be replaced. Why not do it at a time when the entire organization is going through a major shift?
We have this influx of young pitching to develop, we have a new stadium only a year and half away. Essentially, this is the start of a new era of Yankee baseball. Whoever it was that pointed out that Yankee fans are wrong to expect to win it all every year is absolutely right. We won’t, so wake up and accept it.
I am not saying that we need to let go of the old guard altogether, but sooner or later they have to go. My gut tells me that Posada and Mo will return, Pettitte is up in the air, and Jeter is around for life. The biggest changes that must be made are as follows:
1. Ship Giambi out no matter the cost, he is dead weight.
2. Resign Pettitte to stabilize the rotation 1 through 5.
3. Shop one of the three starting OFs. I think Melky is up and coming and should stay. Abreu or Damon could bring back some solid bullpen value which is our neverending issue.
4. Extend A-Rod: Say what you want, but we are not in the postseason w/o him. He is young, dominant, marketable, and with Jeter can represent the core of the Yankees offense as we move in to the new era, ballpark, etc.
5. Re-sign Posada, groom him for 1B in 2009, find a reasonable catching prospect to bring in to the fold in 2008 for tutelage.
6. Re-sign Rivera to a one or two year contract. Sorry, but if this guy really is entertaining going elsewhere, there has to be a limit on what we pay him…he is getting older and while still effective, we HAVE TO start thinking about life after him.
7. Bullpen: we can start with the assumption that we’ll have Ohlendorf, Ramirez, possibly Humberto Sanchez, and even Horne in there as long relief. Yes, this lacks experience and a true stopper, but development is feasible. This is the year that Rivera’s successor must be realized and we’ll do better to look within the organization for this.
8. Get aggressive in the draft. Build for the future from within, not with expensive FAs every year.
9. Mussina: this the wild card decision. Trade him, put him in long relief, whatever. I don’t think the organization should place itself in a position where its success even marginally hinges on this guy’s performance on the mound. His days as a starter are and should be compromised. He looked relatively good last night, but he is not dependable every fifth day. And he is old.
9. Speed: find it somewhere. We need a 40-50 SB threat in the lineup. We can usually count on 20 from Jetes and A-Rod, a few from Melky as well, but no one makes pitchers nervous.
10. TRADE KYLE FARNSWORTH
Damn, I just got extremely intrigued and excited by all of this. Should be interesting.
So this is what we definitely have to build around for 08:
SS: Jeter
2B: Cano
CF: Leche
RF/LF: Abreu and Damon (one of which should be shipped away)
DH/OF: Matsui and Giambi (the latter needs to be shipped)
SP: Hughes, Chamberlain, IPK, Wang
Pen: Ohlendorf, Horne, Ramirez, Mussina (could figure as an SP pending Pettitte decision), Sanchez (pending rehab)
So we have this to work with and fill in holes where necessary and pending who we extend, re-sign, etc.
I am sure a lot of you will hate a lot of this, but it is a start and merely my own speculation. So have fun with it.
No it’s not a joke and it makes alot of sense to me.
Yeah Willie precided over the second biggest choke in M.L.B. history, but that means you have to give him credit fo his other accomplishments as follows:
Managed the Mets to their first above .500 season since 2001 in 2005. The first step towards respectability again.
Managed the Mets to Game 7 of the 2006 A.L.C.S. where his $9M/yr. closer Billy Wagner closer choked by serving up a homerun to a guy who rarely hit homeruns (Yadier Molina). I truly believe the Mets would’ve beaten the Tigers considering the Tigers got swept by an 83-79 regular season team in the World Series, had the Mets overcome St.Louis. This put the Mets back on the map as a serious World Series contender.
Managed the Mets to another good season but the team collapsed because he had no bullpen. You try managing with a bullpen who mentally and ability wise completely lost it (Sosa, Wagner, Feliciano, Heilman, Schoenweis, etc.) and guys like Delgado who said they were “bored”. How about Jose Reyes mailing it in in the final month? That’s not on Willie when Reyes was wonderful for him 2005 through mid 2007. There’s something up with Reyes and Willie has nothing to do with it.
Yeah, it’s Willie’s fault his future Hall Of Fame starting pitcher Tom Glavine gave him 1/3 IP in a game to decide if his team goes to the postseason or watches it on tv and no, don’t tell me he should’ve taken Glavine out sooner, you have to go with your best option after Perez and Pedro. Oh yeah Perez tanked too, but that’s Willie’s fault too huh?
B.t.w. who are these “better candidates” than Willie?
Don Mattingly the guy with zero experience managing any baseball team on any professional level. I know it’s not him.
Joe Girardi the guy who yes won Manager Of The Year in 2006 as Florida Marlins manager but got fired for personal reasons? And who was lining up to offer him a job this year save I think the D.C. Nationals? I know it’s not him.
Bobby Valentine? There’s reasons why the Mets fired him and
he’s managing in Japan, I don’t want to find out those reasons with him in Yankee pinstripes, thanks.
Buck Showalter who the Yankees then Texas fired? Been there, done that.
Tony LaRussa is the an obvious best choice but got news for you: the man is 2 for 5 in World Series and who knows if he wins the 1989 W.S. without the earthquake during it which delayed it by 10 games. A strong argument could be made that he’s the N.L. Torre but not even cuz at least Torre is 4 for 6 in World Series.
Wow, go to lunch and come back and can’t believe some of the stuff here. Someone actually said it’s easier to manage in the NL than the AL??? Wow. Anyway:
“I’m hearing that yankee front office was not happy with how Joe used Joba in game 3.”
Well, there’s hope for us yet. Maybe they’ll be able to find someone to do it correctly.
“As far as ALL the available players (Arod, Pettitte, Rivera and Posada) are concerned, NONE of them are making their future decisions based on Joe Torre. And, guess what? Joe Torre wouldn’t want them to. Its not how it works in sports these days.
Each guy will make a decision that makes sense for themselves and their families. Its not little league. Its a big money, high stakes business. Guys are going to do what’s right for themselves.”
Totally agreed. The “loyalty to Torre” card gets way overplayed, IMO.
When it comes to Mo and Posada – why would you leave the greatest baseball franchise late in your career? For what – a _chance_ (emphasis on CHANCE) to win a ring with another team that you will not really feel like a part of?
These guys aren’t dummies, either. Sure, there will be some hardball played regarding contracts and money, but since when is that something new in Yankee-land? IMO, Pettitte is the biggest possibility to not come back of all the names being considered.
Get rid of Abreu. His speed is great, but his lack of agressiveness near the wall is just too much. Give me someone who takes it personal if a ball falls safely in his territory. I would not be adverse to seeing Shelley play right. We have to see if his hitting can stand up to a regular season.
this is dumb.
i guarantee you Abreu would catch MANY more balls than Duncan catches, even if once every 2 weeks Duncan would crash into the wall to catch one.
this is a classic case of focusing on what a player can’t do and ignoring everything he does do.
you would really let a very good player walk b/c he shies away from walls every once in a while?
thank god you are not the GM.
hmmm,
How can you be so sure we dont make the playoffs? Our dynasty teams were before he got here and its not like we cant sign someone like Lowell that will produce to still win. If we can go to the playoffs with Hayes,Broscious and Ventura.Im sure we can keep that going with a Lowell type.
regardless on where we stand on this who torre things, why havent we heard anything? Does that mean anything either way? Its almost 2
SJ44- Like you said, Money and What They Want, in that order.
Posada and Mo probably get strong offers from other teams this year. NY should give them very good offers, Jorge should get $13-15 mil/per, but he could probably get in that range from a few other teams, too.
I don’t think Jorge leaves at a significant pay cut, but if Torre is booted in bad blood, I definitely see Jorge shopping around. If Torre stays, or is let go “nicely,” maybe the scales tip a bit in NY’s favor as long as their offer is fair.
ARod- Torre won’t matter. I think he’s made his decision by now.
Pettitte- He’s already left with Torre at the helm, I think he stays for his last year regardless.
Mo- I don’t know. Might be like Posada- if the Torre situation goes south, the scales no longer tip in NY’s favor.
If the Torre situation wasn’t on the table, there would be no question that Posada and Mo would come back. Both are career Yankees, we know NY would give them fair money, so no reason for them not to come back. But with the Torre thing out there, as long as somebody else offers fair money, there’s less tying them to NY.
Whose a better choice than Willie Randolph? About 20 candidates.
What has Willie Randolph done in his managerial career that has shown he has ANY ability to manage the Yankees? He can’t even make the post-season with the most talented team in the NL.
That makes him “the guy” for the Yankees?
Omar Minaya would LOVE for the Yankees to “pry” Willie Randolph away from him.
Fortunately, the Yankees aren’t that dumb. Willie is Omar’s problem. He won’t be managing the Yankees.
That is nuts, you don’t trade Joba for anyone.
“hmmm,
How can you be so sure we dont make the playoffs? Our dynasty teams were before he got here and its not like we cant sign someone like Lowell that will produce to still win. If we can go to the playoffs with Hayes,Broscious and Ventura.Im sure we can keep that going with a Lowell type.”
Did you not watch this season? If you replace A-Rod’s production with any 3rd baseman in baseball then we don’t make the playoffs.
The one way a three year posada deal makes sense: view it as signing a catcher for two years and the final year as dh, part time lb and part time catcher.
Bosco, that is absurd. That is the mentality that has gotten us in the position we are in today with trading away all our young, homegrown prospects.
I think we can get Santana by giving away very little.
Give them Matsui and Giambi for all I care.
They aren’t going to announce anything on Torre today. Probably by the end of the week there will be an announcement.
But, not today. Even the Yankees don’t work that way.
You need a day or two to decompress after a loss like last night.
I’m sorry but there’s no way I trade Joba for a 1 year Santana rental. No way in hell I do that.
“That is nuts, you don’t trade Joba for anyone.”
Johan Santana is the best pitcher in baseball. There is every chance that Joba Chamberlain never approaches his greatness (even if he doesn’t get injured). If you’re Cashman, you have to at least consider making the trade.
the yankees should hire dusty baker as the next manager.
Anyone else think that Posada might be considering going to the Mets? Isnt Leduca a free agent? He would reunite with Randolph and not have to move his family.
“I’m sorry but there’s no way I trade Joba for a 1 year Santana rental. No way in hell I do that.”
I thought it was pretty obvious that a long-term deal would have to be agreed upon before the trade was made.
Oh yeah if there are guys better than Willie where are they?
If they didn’t manage last year, why weren’t they offered contracts then? Who are the sought after guys this offseason? Name them.
We got Madden, Francona, Gibbons, and Tremblay managing the other A.L. East teams. We got Gardenhire, Leyland,
Guillen, Wedge managing the A.L. Central teams save K.C. who has T.B.D. since Bell has stepped down. We got Melvin managing Seattle, Scioscia managing the Angels, and who knows who managing Oakland and Texas. Scioscia is the ONLY guy out of those 13 I’d want as manager and he’s not going anywhere. No way I’d want ANYONE who’s currently managing an N.L. team save Clint Hurdle who Colorado just locked up or Bud Black who has the experience as an excellent pitching coach.
So who else is there? Charlie Manuel? Jim Tracy? Mike Hargrove? What have they done relative to Willie Randolph?
Manuel’s Phillies got in only cuz the Mets collapsed and the country saw that’s all they were after Colorado spank-swept them out. Talk about a fluke team who left it in the regular season.
Silver Lining: the upcoming Beer commercials featuring George and Torre
I’ll drop Hargrove in the list of recently fired or re-signed managers, but he lucked into Cleveland. He’s been fired or a quitter ever since he left there, so with him I’d say what’s he done without the biggest collection of homegrown talent besides the Yankees in the ’90s?
“Bosco, that is absurd. That is the mentality that has gotten us in the position we are in today with trading away all our young, homegrown prospects.
I think we can get Santana by giving away very little.
Give them Matsui and Giambi for all I care.”
Name the big name prospects we’ve given away that have ended up being great players? Nick Johnson and Juan Rivera? The problem was that we weren’t developing great young players, not that we were trading them away.
And there is no way we can get Johan Santana for very little. That’s absolutely laughable. For Giambi and/or Matusi? Maybe you should check yourself into a hospital.
Bosco, the Yankees can always sign Santana to a long term deal in 2009. Why would they give up a talent like Joba for Santana? Doesn’t make financial sense and it just wouldn’t make sense period.
“As much as I wouldn’t want to do it, you’d have to consider trading Joba for Santana. Joba is a young talented pitcher full of potential, but injuries derail guys like that all the time. Santana is the clear cut best pitcher in the game and has been for 3 or 4 years now.”
it’s not as clear cut as it was a year ago.
i would not make that trade.
Dusty Baker??? That is funny… good way to loosen up the seriousness of this blog.
Dusty Baker = Career end for Joba, Hughes, Kennedy, Sanchez…..
Santana is the best pitcher in baseball but only 1 of 3 dominant left handers coming up for free agency after next year.
Sabathia and Bedard are also free agents. If the yankees decide that they need a front end left hander (they have almost no good left handed pitching prospects anywhere in the organization) then I would never trade joba or phil for santana. I’d focus on Sabathia as Cleveland will not be able to pay him 18-20 million. Don’t know if Bedard would come to a major media market because of his aversion to any attention at all.
You’re going to have to give santana a $200 contract – that means you’ll have at at age 35-36. Compare that to having Joba or Phil or even Kennedy for the next 6 years making the league minimum. Over nearly the entire length of any Santana contract the young pitcher you trade for him will be making next to nothing. That gives the team enormous flexibility.
“Bosco, the Yankees can always sign Santana to a long term deal in 2009. Why would they give up a talent like Joba for Santana? Doesn’t make financial sense and it just wouldn’t make sense period.”
There is zero chance Santana reaches free agency. If we don’t make move for him another team will before then.
all i can say is wow. ive been crawling through the assorted yankee blogs all day – news and fan sites alike, and i simply cannot believe the laundry list of players and managers people are calling for to go or to be traded. Have we all lost our collective minds?
Sometime the logic defies me, its as if you’d all rather not make the postseason at all then get to the postseason and lose. I do not understand this, i don’t get it – the best thing you can do for a team is build a tradition of winning seasons, i really can’t wait to hear what everyone is saying when we don’t finish first in OBP, Runs, team BA and wind up with 85 wins and watch the Sox and Mets go back to the postseason while we sit around and pretend we’re content with not seeing October for the first time in 13 years. You are all calling for the destruction of the team, and while i agree the garden needs some serious tilling, you’re talking about burning down the whole damn forest and driving the team into the ground during our LAST season in the stadium. Everyones got plenty of ideas about who has to go, but i haven’t heard a single good suggestion on who we’re going to get to replace any of them. Its as if its not important, just get rid of these players who consistently put up some of the best numbers in baseball, and lets assume their absence will bring us another WS title? Huh? Pass the kool-aid Jim.
Do you really think that all the fans and media are just going to turn the other way and understand its a ‘rebuilding’ year and let the yanks have a crappy season? What happens if we’re sitting there in August next year realizing that our young pitching rotation is the best in the majors but our vaunted offense is nowhere to be found because we let guys like Alex and Posada go and traded away Cano? Who’s fault will it be then, oh what, fire Ca$hman then? This is turning into a fricken McCarthyist witch hunt, and unless people start getting a grip, alot of these decisions are gonna come back and bite us on the ass.
bosco, you are very brave. I think its a good trade, would have to think about it, but its not absurd as others might think. Johan is sick
“Bosco, that is absurd. That is the mentality that has gotten us in the position we are in today with trading away all our young, homegrown prospects.
I think we can get Santana by giving away very little.
Give them Matsui and Giambi for all I care.”
wow, this is embarrassing.
sooooo, the Twins are going to trade Santana, who makes $13M next year for a vastly less valuable player who either makes $13M or $20M??
ok.
hey, what if we throw in Farnsworth?
Hurdle is over rated. He has done nothing to motivate his team into their winning streak and NLCS presence.
The only manager that is a better option than Torre is Mike Soscia. And as stated above, Rush Limbaugh’s body double is not going anywhere.
With his ability and the Yankees talent, he could real off WS appearance nearly every year. Don’t be fooled by the lack of WS appearances from the Angels, their salary cap dictates missing a few key parts.
Mo and Posada are listening to other offers. In the Star Ledger article, Mariano said the Yankees had first dibs in the beginning of the season, but declined, so now he wants to listen. But he also said he understands that it is a business and he does not hold the Yankees’ position against them. So, if the Yankees make the best offer, he will probably stay. But he gets to see what he’s worth on the open market. I guess it’s about the same for Posada. I’m starting to steel myself for their departure — prepare for the worst, hope for the best. By the way, I do know that eventually Mariano and Posada and Jeter will not be Yankees; I would just like them to retire, not leave.
Bosco: but who’s to say an injury won’t derail Santana?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
List these “20 candidates” and while you’re at it, give 10 reasons why Willie shouldn’t take over as Yankees manager with Torre out of the equation, assuming the Mets bought out Willie. I’ll refute every reason.
Second FYI Willie did make the postseason: the 2006 N.L.C.S., which is more than Torre can say with 2005/6/7. His 2007 team choked. Name me 5 things he could’ve done to stop the bleeding in those final 17 or so games. He started his best option after Pedro and Perez in Glavine and had his A starting eight in the final game of the regular season. What more could the guy do? His 2007 ace (Perez) got hammered the day before. His team blew one opportunity after another to at least get closer to Florida and make them sweat. They let Dontrelle Willis out of so many jams, sorry, that’s not on Willie, at that point you have to say it’s the players like David Wright said and he’s right (as well as a standup guy.)
Everyone was singing Willie’s praises up until I’d say the last half of the collapse, so the entire 2005 and 2006 season and about the first 152 regular season games of 2007, so spare me the Willie is cr ap cr ap.
Johan Santana is the best pitcher in baseball. There is every chance that Joba Chamberlain never approaches his greatness (even if he doesn’t get injured). If you’re Cashman, you have to at least consider making the trade.
Ugh no more hired guns please. Keep the young guys, even if they bust they are still more exciting. And Santana could bust in NY too. You never know.
how about hiring ryne sandberg fro manager??
Sj you are on a roll today with the good posts.. Steiiny’s good does outweigh his bad and Torre will be fine.. Raymagnetic may have a point on ABreu back for 1 more yr. if Tabata or jackson are really only 1 yr away???
Rowand did have a career yr. but the yanks only need a good yr. from him not a career yr…
Posada is the only one that is most likely to go..
Everyone needs to not discount “winning” more than “losing” will play in the decisions.
ARod went for the money and spent 3 seasons in last place.
Tejada went for the money and is still on a losing team.
Zito went for the money, last place team.
And on and on and on.
how about hiring ryne sandberg for manager??
Rusty, isn’t it great that Cashman doesn’t listen to what irrational Yankee fans think about what should happen to the team?
If Cashman ran the Yankees how many posters on this site feel he should run them we wouldn’t have Melky, Cano, Wang,J oba,or Hughes right now. He’d had traded everyone on the Yankees.
Heck even the ballboys would have been traded if Cashman followed the advice of irrational Yankee fans lol.
you do not trade Joba( a 22 yr old stud who is paid peanuts) for a 31 yr old mega ace getting mega $…..
I will bet anyone any amount Joba will be with th Yanks next yr……
I’m actually hoping that Cashman trades *The Lucky Squirrel* for the Phillie Phanatic.
Definitely not trade Melky for anyone. He’s too talented and only 23 years old. Him and Cano are gonna have monster seasons next year.
Miller,
I don’t blame you a bit for not wanting to trade away your young talent, but why in the world would the Twins give away Santana for very little??
But Stuart -
Rowand will more than likely want a multi-year contract. The Yankees need only pick up a 1-year option on Abreu.
I’d overpay for Mo and Posada, and give each three years, in order to keep them. I’d do it for reasons both sentimental and practical, as I don’t see any better alternatives out there.
As for Wang, who said that 19 wins isn’t a sign of anything? Give me a break. He would have won 21-22 without the injury. Who else would have won those games? You should be thankful for the performances that kid has given us these past two seasons. We’d be sunk without him.
Would I trade him for Johan? Only if we knew Johan would agree to an extension and it was simply a one-for-one trade and, yes, I think the Twins should take that. If what they want is to keep payroll down and have a top pitcher on the mound, they’d do it.
Thank you, Yankees, for a great season. We have nothing to hang our heads low about. We played our butts off this year.
Clint Hurdle is not overrated cuz Colorado gave him a multiyear extension BEFORE they went on their epic run. Why? Cuz he’s nurturing something good there. There’s something about the guy the team likes and he’s not a robot or yes man. They could’ve easily fired him or let him go after this year and brought in who knows who, but they extended him for quite a long time again before the run. That tells me he’s a good manager cuz trust me, there are plenty of guys who want to manage them and any M.L.B. team. Like making it to the bigs for a player is making it, so’s managing there.
Everyone on this blog needs to read this article. It will put into perspective the ridiculous comments and logic that are flowing….Changes are needed and changes are good, but the Yankees are a product of an over zealous owner who has inept cronies supporting him.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn.....ortCat=mlb
The Yankees have had an overabundance of home grown 27 year old pitchers who have won 38 games and thrown close to 400 innings over 2 years.
Dumping Wang after two bad playoffs games makes a lot of sense.
Andy Pettite’s post season record is 14-9 by the way.
We want La Russa! Dude can manage and wins!
Every candidate on the short list in today’s paper are better than Willie Randolph. Its laughable somebody would even suggest Randolph when he possesses the SAME traits that has hurt the Yankees in the post-season.
Doreen,
Don’t get frustrated with the pronoucements of players after a loss like last night.
Every player has the right to explore free agency. Its their right. If they are able to get better offers from other teams, they have a decision to make.
Let’s not lose sight of something today.
This is the NEW YORK YANKEES. This isn’t some hack organization. They will put together good teams every year. They will be aggressive, spend money (hopefully, wisely) and not cheat their fans on the product one iota.
Yes, there will be changes. But, there HAS to be changes. You don’t go 4-13 in their last 17 games in the post-season and NOT have changes.
Change doesn’t equal bad. I think that’s what some of you are missing here. Change is what this team needs.
You just hope they make good moves and, most important (at least to me), the Yankees handle this with class.
Do it the right way. No reason to do it with any rancor or any snipping.
Wrong. With Steinbrenner in charge, the Yankees ARE a hack organization. The ONLY periods of success have been when von Steingrabber takes a back seat, either voluntarily, or as more frequently has occurred, involuntarily.
Guys, regardless of how great your case is for Santana, there is just no way Cashman trades Joba.
Cashman has tied himself to Joba. After all the Joba-fanaticism this year, all the talk about holding the young arms, all the focus on developing from within, it would be completely insane to trade Joba so soon.
Unless Tampa forces Cashman to go for Santana, it won’t happen. Plus, there’s a good chance he’ll be available in 2009 to the highest bidder. Besides, the Yankees already have 6 starters lined up for 2008, assuming Pettitte comes back. Wait for 2009, Pettitte’s gone, and there’s plenty of room for Santana.
But there is just no way it happens now if it means giving up Joba.
“you do not trade Joba( a 22 yr old stud who is paid peanuts) for a 31 yr old mega ace getting mega $…..
I will bet anyone any amount Joba will be with th Yanks next yr……”
Johan Santana is only 29 next season. I’m not saying the trade should be made, just that it should be considered. I’m not even sure the Twins would do Johan for Joba.
I see it as something like the Sox did when they traded Ramirez and Sanchez for Beckett.
This year isn’t the first time that Willie Randolph has been questioned. Willie was criticized for not bringing in Billy Wagner in the 9th inning of last year’s NLCS Game 7. He brought in Aaron Heilman, Heilman surrendered a two-run homer to Yadier Molina. Maybe it was Willie’s fault then, maybe not. But this year isn’t his first dose of criticism at all. Willie was put through the wringer last year.
the only two pieces I’d look into moving would be Giambi and Farnsworth. The rest of the pen, I’d also let go with the exception of Viz and Mo and look to finding some solid arms (whether from the farm or free agent pool). That’s it. Try to keep Mink, Molina, Posada, Arod, and Mo. Keep Abreu. Move Matsui to DH. Maybe platoon him with Duncan (for LHP) or trade Duncan for relief pitching. That’s it. This team has too many DH’s and tell Damon to stay in shape fer cripes sake.
I think Phil Hughes is better than Joba anyways.
Wang and Melky for Johan?
Both are young but show great stuffs in them and have been improving. Wang’s ERA is good(not great) but he did win 19 games two years in a row. Name me one SP has more wins then Wang? We do need one dominant SP but not at the cost of trading two great young players. And to trade a 23-yr talent CF? He can only be better year after year, who hit a homer when offense was quiet in game 2 (?)
I hope Torre will stay although he kind of addict to vet but it’s his management to bring us to play-off every year in 13 years. I think he will learn after this year’s disappointment that he need to bring some “FIRE” in the team and we saw him give young talents opportunity to play more this year. I don’t think any name on the “coach list” will make us better. Give Torre one more year.
No news yet? I feel like I’m watching a movie and I want to know how this movie ends!
It’s basically impossible to trade Giambi with his contract.
Also I think Torre made a huge mistake not putting him in for Doug once Wang came out of the game. It probably wouldn’t have changed the result, but we could have used his bat at that point.
Every1 has raved over Cashman but now there are too many names on the table. Next year and maybe more after that will be rebuilding year/years. I’m a little worried but who knows this is the Yankees. Just seems like the Yanks have been trying to cut costs and this winter they might get tight with their money. 27 in 08′
I have a question for anybody who thinks the Yankees need more “grinders” in the lineup. Which of the current starting 9 batters (not counting Giambi, who I consider a bench player) needs to go, in place of “grinders”? I am very happy with Cano, Jeter, Posada, Abreu, Melky, and Rodriguez. I think Matsui and Damon are also useful players, although maybe slightly less important than those other players listed above, and perhaps there are marginally better players available at those positions. But isn’t Damon considered to be a grinder? The only spot that can be upgraded significantly is 1B.
So what I’m saying is that assuming they bring back Posada and Rodriguez, I don’t see all these radical changes to the starting players that everyone is calling for.
SJ44 -
I’m not frustrated. Actually I’m a pretty realistic, practical person who always sees the logical side of emotional issues – to the chagrin of some of the members of my family. But I’m also emotional and sentimental. Logically, every player has the right to explore their options. Sentimentally, of course, I want to them to realize the grass is not greener (nor is the money) on the other side of the street.
I also realize that change happens and this kind of a change is totally out of the control of the fans. We are outsiders looking in and can only helplessly speculate. Baseball is cyclical – lots of ups and downs. Even the 50’s Yankees came to an end. And so did the 60’s Yankees thankfully come to an end. Good and Bad.
And I agree 100%. The way the Yankees handle this will speak volumes. They need to do this quickly, and with respect, class and dignity.
Are you crazy bobcat? George Steinbrenner hasn’t taken a backseat in the organization in the last 12 years.
How has that worked out?
Hack organization? Please.
Madison Square Garden is a hack organization.
You don’t like George Steinbrenner, fine.
Don’t don’t spout off on nonsense without knowing facts.
The guy is no saint. He also isn’t always wrong. Like now. This team needs new direction. In fact, he isn’t the only guy in the organization who feels that way.
I am curious how Buck Showalter managed to get his name on that list. I hadn’t heard his name in ages.
It is too bad that Joe has to go, but he has to go. Steinbrenner wanted to fire him last year and now it will be done. My concern is that we will hire Girardi for a year, he will flame out, and then Mattingly will take the reins.
It should be interesting to see what happens. Maybe change can be good.
Trading Giambi and his albatross contract would be extremely difficult, but not impossible. I’m sure teams like Anaheim and Seattle would be interested. The Yanks would probably have to eat a great deal of his contract and get nothing in return, but unloading him would be addition by subtraction.
and just release farnsworth… cripes.
George Steinbrenner has always had that cutthroat, go for it all mentality, which is what you need to survive in any business, whether it’s owning a sports franchise or owning a regular business. You do whatever it takes to give your employees the best chance to succeed. He has always done that. The ruthless, aggressive demeanor is an absolute must!
Sunny615- Anaheim, Seattle, that sounds like the same teams rumored to have a shot at Bonds. Texas may also be a possibility. I guess that Giambi could be a consolation prize for the team that doesn’t end up with Barry, IF a team is willing to trade for Giambi.
I think the radical changes are going to mostly affect the manager and coaching positions. The roster of players will be mostly the same, with probably the most changes in the bullpen. The starting lineup is probably the best in baseball and the starting rotation in 2008 looks to be Hughes, Joba, Wang, Pettitte, and Mussina. So the bullpen and maybe the bench are the areas where some players will change.
Same day, different year, same story. The day after elimination is one of the toughest of the year. Rumors and speculation about monumental changes fly about on blogs, call in shows etc. And what happens in the end? Nowhere near as much as we all think will. Let’s just keep things in perspective. They had a better year than many thought they would after a 21-29 start and the seeds (Joba, phil, IPK) have been planted for next year. The future looks better than it has in several years now.
And no, I don’t trade Joba for Johan either.
Tyler Kepner has Wang’s comments. It’s good to know that he thinks he needs to improve his changeups and sliders. But I’m curious why he doesn’t think about throwing a four seamer for a low strike. If he joins the Leo Mazzonne school, hitters can’t possibly lay off of the two-seamer which drops from a low strike to a ball…
Damon
A-Rod
Possada
Petitte
Menkevic
Abreu
Giambi
Farnsworth
Mussina
of these players who do you think comes back next year and if not who comes in their place?
“Don’t don’t spout off on nonsense without knowing facts”
SJ, you cant have it both way, you cant give steinbrenner all the credit for the past 12 years and take it away from torre. Just because you write something and peter loves you doesnt mean its fact as well. You have been bashing torre for ever, now if someone bashes stienbrenner its nonsense.
stop saying steve phillipsesque statements and discards others who do not agree with you
If theres one guy on the team that is a clear postseason liability, its Wang. That ERA doesn’t lie, everyone thought it was Jacobs field, but even at home in the stadium facing elimination, he couldn’t perform at all. However, the kid won 19 games and until the last set vs Boston, was a strong contender for Cy Young, and thats got to make him valuable, i just think that his style of ground ball pitching just isn’t a good fit for the Yankees.
I knew from the first pitch last night that he wasn’t on. Just like the offense, Wang is feast or famine, hes either flirting with a no-no or hes getting shelled in the first inning, we need consistency because consistency breeds confidence, until we get that, we’re always gonna go out on the field thinking ‘what if’. How many times this year did we wonder about wether we’d see the ‘good’ or ‘bad’ Wang, Moose or Andy? its never close or moderate, its always all-star performance or complete garbage. Thats got to stop.
If losing Wang meant gaining Santana, i’d do it in a heartbeat if we could extend Santana past 08 as part of the deal, problem is that the Twins need bats, not arms. We’d probably have to arrange some sort of three way trade and move Wang+ to a team that would send a few good corner outfielder / DH types to the Twins.
For a straight up deal, i’d entertain Wang, Matsui and Giambi for Santana. I doubt the Twins are gonna accept signing Giambis check so we’d probably have to pay a huge chunk of his salary and i dunno, i love Matsui but i do think hes declining, i think we’re better off starting Damon in left and i’d honestly give Duncan a shot in the DH spot, so Matsui seems redundant. I would never consider moving any other youngster besides Wang, Cash needs to stay away from baiting with any of our young arms, Cano or Melky.
I think the thing thats going against us most there is the Twins would be morons to move Santana to a team inside the AL. West coast NL teams like the Dodgers and Giants are probably more likely to recieve Johan than we are.
Nobody wants players on the decline in return for a star.
you think the next couple of days are going to be ugly, wait until boston wins the series for the second time in four years. heads will roll.
I know it sounds crazy, but if George is going to throw a successful manager on the scrap heap, he should go for someone outside the organization who isn’t named Tony LaRussa. I would say go with Wally Backman – he’s basically another Billy Martin. He wins wherever he goes, he is fiery and he’s everything to the Mets that Willie was to the Yankees. If you gotta change horses, might as well go with one that will shake things up and piss off the Mets!
For a straight up deal, i’d entertain Wang, Matsui and Giambi for Santana.
——————————————————-
Sorry man, but that one just made my day. I needed a laugh.
Please, Minn. is not gonna trade arguably the best pitcher in baseball for a so-so 3-4 starter and 2 broken down, bloated contract, has beens.
Be real man.
you are right snatana is only 28 my bad… wow only 28…
again they lost for the same reason they have lost for 7 yrs. sarting oitching. starting pitching always makes managers look alot smarter..
wang is a good pitcher who had a horrible series… the bottom line is if hughes(1 or 2) and joba(1 type stuff) and kennedy can develop into starters along with pettitte and wang they have a real real good staff.
giambi has a razy contract but only 1 yr left so if the angels do not get arod they may be interested in giambi……
Kasey doing his thing….
Clearly migames, you can’t read.
I have said REPEATEDLY, the Steinbrenner-Torre marriage has been good for BOTH sides.
Do you not think Steinbrenner’s check writing has contributed to Torre’s success? I mean, seriously, do you think Torre wins without Steinbrenner?
If the answer is “yes”, we shall see if he manages elsewhere.
Before he came to NY, he career record was over 100 games UNDER .500. He wasn’t managing expansion teams either. The Mets and St. Louis are major baseball markets.
Joe Torre doesn’t sniff the Hall of Fame without George Steinbrenner. Steinbrenner doesn’t win 4 more titles without Joe Torre.
Like I have said, BOTH parties benefited from the relationship. But, its OVER. Torre knows it, Steinbrenner knows it and the players know it.
Twelve years is a LONG time to be at one place. There comes a time its in both parties interests to move on without one another.
That time has come for the Yankees. Its really not that complicated.
I think every team would like to have a sub $500K paid SP with 19 wins. I am wondering how many 10-win SPs cost less than $500K. However, I am curious why Wang does not throw a 96-97 mph 4-seamer to supplement his 92-94mph dinker with occasional(not so good) slider/changup
I think it would take Wang and either Cano or Cabrera for Santana. I don’t know if I’d do it. Wang’s a good kid but I wouldn’t be heartbroken to see him go or anything.
Joe Torre should not be fired. Is he the reason insects swarmed Joba Chamberlain? Is he the reason why Wang’s sinker was a flat, straight fastball? Is he the reason A-Rod had a rather un-MVP postseason? The answer is no. He should manage this team as long as he wants. People forget too quickly the stability that man has brought to the most turbulent managerial position in all of sports.
Rusty,
Wang needs a good pitching coach to help him learn how to throw a curveball.
He adds a curveball to him arsonal, he’s unhittable.
He lost his sinker in September and, unfortunately, it exposed him.
There is a lot to work with in Wang. He’s young, can throw innings and has a lot of talent.
He had an awful post-season. However, you don’t discard him. You continue to develop him. He will be better in the long run for it.
He just needs to work on his game a bit more.
This is what you do, in order of importance (excluding the manager, to be addressed at the end)…
We all know, or should by now, that pitching wins championships. The Yankees do not have an ace. Wang is a number 2 starter. So is Pettitte. Hughes and Chamberlain are very talented, but also very young. Excellent pitchers all, but none of them pure aces. There is no substitute for the shut-em-down, strike-em-out ace. Therefore, trading for a Santana (who is supposedly available) or a Peavy (if he’s available) is absolutely the most important thing.
Minnesota will be needing a center fielder with Hunter gone (more on that later), and will certainly want pitching in return for Santana as well. So here’s your trade…
I. Kennedy, M. Cabrera, R. Ohlendorf, A. Horne for J. Santana
If they want Jeff Marquez instead of any of those players, or even along with them, you do it. Why? Because we are still not quite giving up the farm, and we still would have Joba and Hughes, and there is no one like Santana in baseball… a Cy Young lefty with plenty of good years left in him.
Then you try to get Andy to stay as well. If he doesn’t, that’s too bad, but hopefully he does. The rotation would then be…
LHP Santana
RHP Wang
LHP Pettitte
RHP Hughes
RHP Chamberlain
…with Mussina available for long relief or if someone is injured. You can never have enough starting pitching, and Mussina certainly should not be guaranteed a spot. If you can trade him for a good middle reliever, you do it. If not, let him be the “6th” starter. He’d wind up getting plenty of work during the year.
With that rotation, everything else is secondary.
Now, you sign Torii Hunter to play center field. You throw the bank at A-Rod for an extension. You let Abreu walk, saving the 16 million you’d be paying him. You trade Giambi if you can, but you probably can’t. You let Cano bat third. With his growing talent and maturity, and with Abreu gone, he’s the logical choice to hit between Jeter and A-Rod. You re-sign Posada for 3 years at 40 million. He’s the best choice, and he’s a Yankee. There is no substitute for Jorge Posada. You keep Mientkiewicz and platoon him with Duncan at first, with Duncan also available to play RF. RF is your only undefined spot, but it gives you a little flexibility with the OF’ers and DH, especially if Giambi is back. And you can see if Sardinha is a major league player.
Here’s your line-up…
LF Damon
SS Jeter
2B Cano
3B Rodriguez
DH Matsui
CF Hunter
C Posada
1B Duncan / Mientkiewicz
RF Sardinha / Duncan
That line-up is balanced and lively, with speed and not too many lefties. It gives a couple of young guys a chance to show they belong, and puts a little pressure on the bigger guys in the middle. With the starting rotation set, this is an excellent line-up to complement it. You have Giambi on the bench (which he has earned), or at 1B or DH some of the time if he can’t be gotten rid of. There are worse things than having Jason Giambi’s bat available. You keep Molina. You have Betemit to back up the infield and RF if neccessary and DH once in a blue moon.
Next, the relief corps…
First, you absolutely re-sign Mo. Two years, 25 million, with an incentive-laden 3rd-year option that’s based on appearances and saves completed. Or just a straight team option. A player option would basically mean a guaranteed third year. You try to avoid that, but if you have to, you give it to him. He’s the great Mariano Rivera. He hasn’t lost a step yet, and he deserves the money.
Then you sign Scott Linebrink as a set-up man. Check his numbers if you don’t know him. He ought to be able to solidify the middle relief with Joba heading to the rotation. You sign Villone to a cheap one year deal. A quick look at the 2008 free-agent class shows no no-doubt lefties. Maybe see what it takes to sign Jeremy Affeldt. If he can be gotten for under 3 million a year, he might be worth a shot. He was good in Colorado, of all places, the second half of the year.
Pen:
RHP Rivera
RHP Linebrink
RHP Farnsworth
RHP Ramirez
RHP Veras
LHP Villone
LHP Affeldt
Possibly: Sanchez, Karstens, Rasner
This is admittedly a harder part of the team to define at this point. Maybe there’s a trade to be made. Maybe you sign another free agent (Gagne, Dotel?), but we all know that middle relief tends to look different… on almost every team… at the beginning than at the end of the season. There are some other middling free agent bullpen arms, including Luis Vizcaino, available. I’d like to trade Farnsworthless too, but if you do that you may have to pick up some of his contract and you definitely have to sign a Gagne, a Dotel, or at least a Vizcaino type.
Here’s your 2008 Roster…
LHP Santana
RHP Wang
LHP Pettitte
RHP Hughes
RHP Chamberlain
RHP Mussina
RHP Rivera
RHP Linebrink
RHP Farnsworth
RHP Ramirez
RHP Veras
LHP Villone
LHP Affeldt
OF Damon
SS Jeter
2B Cano
3B Rodriguez
OF / DH Matsui
OF Hunter
C Posada
1B / OF Duncan
1B Mientkiewicz
OF / 3B Sardinha
C Molina
IF Betemit
DH / 1B Giambi
That’s 26 players. Wiggle room there for the bullpen arms, Mussina or Giambi being traded. In the cases of both those guys, if you trade them, you trade them for a reliable bullpen arm. In both cases, if you pick up a portion of their contract (1-3 million for Moose, 10 million for Giambi), you certainly ought to be able to get that back.
J-Dawg – I wouldn’t even trade him at this point… just give him away. All teams know we have 2 DH’s (3 if you include Duncan) and we have no bargaining position – especially considering that Giambi has to approve any trade and would probably look for an extension to agree to any move.
Oh, and the manager… You keep Joe Torre. And if you don’t, you’re an idiot.
SJ44- A good pitching coach to work with Wang? I think we both know who the answer is. Hint- he worked magic last year with Jeff Weaver and worked magic from ‘04 to the present with Chris Carpenter.
Well thats why i said it would most likely go down as a three way trade.
I dunno. Wang is a pretty big chip, regardless of how down we are on him right now, his season numbers don’t lie. Kid pitched to 19 wins in the AL East for the Yankees. Hell, you follow Fransisco Liriano with Wang and thats about a good 1, 2 punch as any. Wang isn’t a so-so 3 or 4 starter, we’re all down on him right now, but take a few steps back, the kid is a good pitcher, you want to think he sucks, fine. If we had this discussion in August i doubt you’d be knocking him as bad as you are.
Sure, Matsui and Giambi would be trimming, and yes they’re both declining, but the Twins are already considering Bonds, so if you think about it, they’re offense is lacking that much, they could be willing to take some veteran hitters like those two. Matsui is far more attractive than Giambi, but the combination of the two with Wang isn’t a moronic offer, particularly if you consider that i said we’d have to subsidize their contracts and foot some of the bill for the both of them in 08. Admittedly, i’m trying to throw Giambi over the side for anything we can get, hes worthless.
For the next several weeks we as fans are not going to see the value in any of our players, theyre all washed up has-been chokers who aren’t worth a dime. Just the way its going to go for a while, but i doubt we’d be scoffing at all these suggestions if it were August.
SJ44,
I’m sure a 27 year old pitcher will have no trouble developing great secondary offerings.
Face it, he is what he is. Dependent on groundballs and lacks an out pitch. Not anywhere near the ace some would like to believe.
Preachin’ to the choir J-Dawg. I love Duncan. Far and away, the best in the business. With all the young pitching on this team, and throughout the organization, he would be great in a Yankee uniform.
Wang is only a year younger than Santana. He’s not a very big chip considering he’s no where near has good.
Today of all days..
no blog updates?
Cashman had his chance to sign Mo and prob Posada and didn’t. What makes every1 sure they will come back. Pettite won’t come back if this team doesn’t look like a contender(which will happen if A-Rod ,Jorge ,and Mo walk). Coaching staff might sway his decision too. Also, many people lining up young studs for rotation next year but no one but maybe Hughes is ready for 30+ starts or 200 innings. Cashman better be on his game this winter or Yanks won’t be contenders next year.
Pete’s “instincts” that we are entering the Mattingly era provoke further speculation on what it might take for Donnie to be successful. The first and most crucial question is who would serve as his bench coach. If indeed hired as manger, Donnie needs someone who can lend him some gravitas, a canny baseball man whom he can rely upon but whose presence will not undercut his authority. I have confidence Mattingly can handle the press; he can handle the ownership; and he can handle both the veterans and youth movement in the clubhouse. But he needs that mix of wisdom and instincts, without the threat of confusion with regard to his leadership, that Torre had in the late ’90s. Zim was past his management sell-by date and no one thought he was temperamentally suited to deal with ownership, the press, or Pedro Martinez. In some senses, both Bowa and Pena would be good candidates, except they are still viable managerial candidates for non-Yankee clubs. Would Stick Michael do it for two-three years? Bring back Cardenal?
As for pitching coach, if Gator walks, how about Cone? Smart pitching brain. Good with young guys. An oddball presence in the clubhouse that could fire them up at times and keep them loose at others.
Nobody believes Wang is an ace, except those who live on stats.
He is a very, very good #2 or #3 pitcher. He is a #1 guy here because the pitching has been short the last few years.
With a guy like Chamberlain, who has true #1 stuff, as well as a very interesting list of ‘08 FA’s (Santana, Bedard, Peavy), the #1 slot will be filled soon enough.
That makes Wang, with better secondary pitches, a very, very good #2, #3 starter.
how exactly are we going to trade Farnsworth?
How can we trade Giambi?
Who can Mussina be moved?
Who would want these bums at their current contract?
Seriously, after next year…Giambi, Matsui, Mussina, Farnsworth will all be gone.
Mussina will not be traded. He has a no-trade clause. He likes it in NY, and at this stage in his career he likely wouldn’t accept any trade.
Ok, so Wang was horrible in the playoffs. But in 2 regular seasons he was also 38-13, best in the bigs. He is a ace. Great record, great era. He’s the guy you want on the mound in big games. This year, that wasn’t the case as he got shelled in the postseason. But he’s a CY candidate for the 2nd straight year. A-Rod struggled big for a long time in the playoffs — he’s still an MVP.
“Nobody believes Wang is an ace, except those who live on stats.”
No one who lives on stats believes Wang is an ace. The people who look at the wrong stats like wins and ERA believe he’s an ace.
SJ44- Right! What Dave Duncan did with the Oakland A’s in the late 1980s and early ’90s is the greatest job ever done by a pitching coach, IMO. Dave Stewart goes from journeyman to a tough and confident pitcher who won 20 games or more for four consecutive years. Then Duncan turns Bob Welch into a 27 game winner and the ‘90 Cy Young winner. Just awesome! And he’s never had the talent on hand that he would have with this Yankee pitching staff. Give him time with Chamberlain, Hughes, and Kennedy, and the sky is the limit!!
Just spoke to my sources: Torre is OUT, La Russa IN and so is Dave Duncan. Mattingly will take over for La Russa in a couple years. Trying to bring in Girardi as consultant.
Also, Mo and Po back. Alex OUT. Abreu and Pet back!
Nobody believes Wang is an ace, except those who live on stats.
hahahahahahaha
what are you talking about?
Wang is trashed by those in the saber community based on his low k rate.
No thanks to Torii Hunter. Why haven’t we learned that investing in long-term free agents on the wrong side of 30 has not worked in recent years?
They aren’t getting Santana from MIN unless they give up Hughes and/or Joba.
Is anyone willing to trade Joba or Hughes for one season of Santana?
Not me. You can also bet that Santana is going to hit the open market because that’s the way he’ll get the most cash.
Forget trading for Santana. Cashman isn’t parting with the gems.
Cash on wfan NOW!
SJ44 :
Quietly, Hank and Hal Steinbrenner have seen some of the errors of their father’s ways. In all likelihood, they’ve factored in strong with a Torre decision. The team is headed in a new direction both in team and business decisions and they are at the ship’s wheel. Foremost on their minds is to close out the old Stadium and open the new one with a different prospective of what the team’s future will be. There’s no point in putting anything on the back burner.
Joel – nice lineup, but i think splitting up Melky and Cano is a bad move, i have this feeling that moving one or the other will result in a loss of chemistry on the team and resulting underperformance from the remaining player. I love the idea of moving Melky to right and signing a CF like Torii Hunter though. I would not give up Kennedy, Hughes or Chamberlain for anyone. Wanna call me unrealistic and a miser whos not going to get anything in trades for having that attitude? Fine, but i just see those 3 as the future – especially since we’ve all agreed here that pitching wins in October, i just can’t in good confidence let any of those guys go, just to watch them flourish on another team.
You’re wrong, the stats people are the ones who have been saying over and over that Wang isn’t an ace. The stats guys know that Wins for a pitcher is highly overrated when judging how good a pitcher is. They emphasize looking at K’s, BB’s, and HR’s allowed. Wang simply doesn’t strike out enough people to be an ace. He allows too many baserunners. The stats people are the ones on top of all that. It’s the non-stats people who glorify a 19-win pitcher who think that must mean he is an ace.
Me personally, I’d give away Farns and Giambi… just give Farns his outright release. Giambi would take some convincing, but it would most likely involve absorbing a lot of his contract (and convincing him to take the trade). The Nationals and Mets would be interested in Moose (especially after Glavine goes to the Braves). Again, it would mean low returns, but anything is possible… you just have to keep expectations low.
Jennifer – fill those of us stuck in the office in on what Cash says.
Pete – thanks for this blog. I have to say that your podcasts of Joe Torre have made me appreciate him much more. I’ve been depressed all day at the thought of losing him.
Joel do you work?
Cash won’t give Joe a vote of confience, won’t say he wants him back.
100% agree with SJ44, I likd Wang a lot but he obvious is not an ACE. An ACE seems to me will win every game when he on the mound(although that’s not the case in real life), what I am trying to say is an ACE will make opponent hitters nervous facing you. Wang needs one strike-out pitch and gets his sinker back, he could be a decent #2 SP, but his personality won;t make him an ACE.
Santana’s book will be much better if he’s here; 20+ wins easily with the offense. And, he can release Wang and Pettite from must-win pressure.
That’s not good.
IF Torii Hunter was willing to sign a two-year deal, he may be a decent option, but he has some durability questions and he grounds into a lot of double plays now. That tells me that he has lost at least half a step. The Yankees should pass and let the Rangers fall victim to signing Torii to a five-year deal.
All I have to say is F*ck George if he replaces Joe…He is going to ruin this team, and fuc*ed if he thinks Yankees fans will just go along with the change. Its going to take the team and just completely ruin it.
Dam that guy.
I am Irate.
“There’s nothing decided yet,” Hank Steinbrenner, a son of the owner and a team senior vice president, said Tuesday.
The younger Steinbrenner praised Torre for the job he did this year, getting the Yankees into the playoffs after a slow start.
“I really do like Joe a lot,” he said. “I have a lot of admiration for him.”
great job on otl pete!
man, ca$hmoney is all business on m&md. asked by dog about wether or not he personally feels Joe is the right guy for the job, regardless of what mgmt thinks, he just said “i have to honor the process”.
did just back him up by saying he thought hes done a fantastic job in his tenure thus far tho…
I’m stuck at work too, I just have a radio
G. Love – where did you get that quote.
Yikes, this feels like the 80s again. I should break out my stirrup pants and dayglo.
Jennifer – you’re lucky. I think a radio would be frowned upon here.
FYI
Cashman is on the FAN now
SJ 44 – Nobody will deny that Dave Duncan is at the top of the class as a piching mentor but where he goes, LaRussa goes and therin lies the question. LaRussa is super sensitive toward the media. Will the NY media vultures eat him up and spit him out and drive him to ….drink ?
That quote is directly from an article on the front page of espn — it was posted at 3:07 pm on the wire services. Go to the front page of espn and you can read it.
From Cashman question he just said that Kevin Long called him during the game to ask about Joba ok pitching 2 innings. My question is why is the hitting coach making that call to the GM during the game. Something doesnt make sense to me on that one.
Re backing Torre Cashman is never going to that until he talks with ownership which he has not done. It was George who made the statement he would not be back he owes it to have the meetings in private not through the media
Why it when I try to listen to something everyone talks loud in the hallway or comes in my office?
Can someone sum up the Cashman interview on WFAN. I can’t get to a radio or use audio on my computer right now.
Nick- Not to but in, but Duncan doesn’t have to bring LaRussa with him. They are a long-time connection, but business is business. It was once thought that Bobby Cox and Leo Mazzone were inseperable. Bobby is still in Atlanta, while Leo is in Baltimore now. Anything is possible, and maybe Dave wants to come here and spend time with his son Shelley now that he has spent some time with Chris. Who knows?
Wow!! Pete is on ESPNEWS!!!!
What is Pete saying?
Joe is as good as gone, Cash won’t even say it is a possiblity that Joe could be back.
is joe out?
cashman doesnt want to answer if its possible if joe comes back
G. Love – great article on Torre. Thanks for the top. Not as much gloom and doom as I thought.
Didn’t we all think Joe was fired at the end of last year? I guess this is different because the contract is up, but I’m still hopeful he comes back.
tip, not top
my guess is Cashman and Joe aren’t that tight anymore, I’ve been saying management wasn’t happy w/ Torre’s use of the bullpen or the sub- players, and if they’re asking for Joba’s use I guarantee Cashman wasn’t happy, that was made clear since he was brought up.
I’m going to miss Joe but there needs to be consequences for not getting the job done here.
There is absolutely no executive in the game with more on his plate than Brian Cashman is about to have.
Manager and coaching decisions are priority #1. There’s contracts to try and unload. Player contract options to consider. Free agents and their agents to deal with. A 40-man roster to shuffle. It goes on and on and he’ll see little of Mrs. Cashman’s home cooking. He’s about to become an authority on food take-out ordering delivered to 161st & River Ave in the Bronx.
cashman said nothing at all
Cashman said he needs to “respect the process” when asked if he would comment on Torre’s situation. He refused to come out and say if he supports him or does not.
Cashman saved Joe’s bacon last year. He has had Joe’s back all the way through the years.
It is expecting a little much if you want him to come on the air today and directly contradict what his boss said a few days ago. He wants to keep his job like we all would.
Also if he gave Joe a vote of confidence now and he gets fired then it looks like he has no juice in the organization.
People who want to trade Giambi should wake up. No other team in baseball wants a 37 yr DH past his prime. The yanks would have to eat a significant chunk of the $21 million owed next year in a trade, like in the neighborhood of 17-18 million. And for that kind of money, they’re not likely to let him sit at home either. Bottom line: an awfully tough contract to move.
Matsui–I don’t think he’s going anywhere either as the Yanks like the viewers he pulls in Japan.
Mussina–as someone pointed out, he’s got a no trde clause. A move to the bullpen? Depends on who the next manager is.
Farns–the first good offer that comes along
If no Joe than here’s my list:
1) Bowa
2) Mattingly
3) Girardi
Pete was on ESPNEWS just a minute ago. He brought up some of the candidates for the manangerial position. Pete said that Tony LaRussa would fit the bill of replacing a big name with a big name. Pete also mentioned Mattingly and Girardi as possibilities. He brought up the upcoming free agency of Rivera and Posada. He gets the feeling that Rivera definitely wants to stay and that Mo has two good years left, I agree. Pete said that Posada is a possibility for the Mets as well as the Yankees. He talked about how tough of a job the next manager will have of replacing Joe Torre. A great quote from Pete, “It’s just like following John Wooden, Vince Lombardi, or Don Shula- it’s nearly impossible to match their success.” Great job Pete!!
“I think every team would like to have a sub $500K paid SP with 19 wins. I am wondering how many 10-win SPs cost less than $500K. ”
so would the Yankees.
unfortunately, Wang is going to start costing real money next year.
Just read the awful piece on ESPN by Pearlman on how joyless and unappreciative Yankees fans are. I am sick to death of the media manufacturing this image of Yankee fans. It’s not my experience or that of the fans I am closest to. Exhibit A is the inane comment on TBS at the end of the game, while the camera panned the stands, that Cleveland “shocked” the Yankees. Pearlman’s piece includes a pic of two disappointed fans and calls them “stunned”. What true Yankee fan expected Cleveland to be any sort of walk in the park? And despite the fact that this was a thrilling season, with tons of grit and determination on display in the face of much-discussed structural team flaws, are we supposed to celebrate a loss? Great season. Bummer of an ending. Only one team’s season ends well. Now we look ahead. I recently congratulated a Mariners fan on a great season and complimented his team, which no one expected diddly from and lead the Wild Card in August. He accused me of being an arrogant gloating Yankee fan. Will the media ever stop promoting this slander? The culture of Yankee fandom is infinitely superior than its portrayal.
ESPN News reporting that LaRussa is interested in coming to NY…he’s holding off on telling the cards if he’ll come back to wait and see what happens in NY. He would bring Dave Duncan w/ him
“IF Torii Hunter was willing to sign a two-year deal”
he’s not.
J-Dawg :
Should Guidry not survive a coaching staff shakeup, it’s shouldn’t be a surprise that with or without Torre, we’ll see Dave Eiland or Gil Patterson as the pitching coach with 1 of either replacing Joe Kerrigan as bullpen coach. The new wave of young pitching has arrived with more to follow and they can easily relate to them.
The Cardinals want an answer from LaRussa fairly quickly, so somebody is definitely going to make a move. They want to get the go-ahead from LaRussa so that they will know what they need to do.
Joel- That’s a pretty good roster you got there.
I think they keep Melky, though. And maybe Cashman gives up IPK for Santana, but I doubt it. I think Cashman is going to hold onto his three young arms for dear life this offseason. That said, it’s hard to argue against IPK for Santana. Even if IPK turns out to be a Cy Young winner, they’d get a Cy Young winner in return. Tough call.
I’m actually more interested in what’ll happen in 2009 (talk about thinking WAY too far in advance). 2008 could end up being mostly the same team- some new bullpen arms, maybe a new third baseman, but generally the same guys we saw in September.
But 2009 should be a lot different. Pettitte gone, Moose probably gone, Mo and Posada on their last year (I would guess), Matsui and Giambi maybe heading out, that’s a lot of new faces. The next 2 years will definitely test out Cashman’s attempt to rebuild from within, because he’s going to have a lot of people to replace pretty quickly.
Hmmm- That’s why I made it a big IF. Most of us know what Torii will likely do- sign a five-year deal to go to the Rangers, because he lives in Texas.
ive been thinking about this. i’m torn about Joe, all last season and this season i was positive, he has to go. In the days following elimination, i just go soft and can’t imagine the team with anyone else. Now that i’m hearing this LaRussa garbage, i’m just sick thinking about it. If there was some obvious choice to replace him, then yeah, go for it. But thats not the case, and we’re gonna go get ‘whoever’ to replace Joe for the last season in Yankee Stadium? Ugly…
Briefly watching the Cleveland celebration last night, i felt something. They had this huddle of players all together, simultaneously busting open the beer, champagne – started the spartan “AH-HOO” chant from the 300. Cheezy yes, but still there was no BS about the way they handled themselves: hardcore, like marines who had just won a bloody battle, reverberating confidence and no-fear bad ass sentiment all over the place.
What about our clubhouse after the wildcard? It was a mess, more like a 10 year olds birthday party, kids running around chasing each other all way too eager to jump on Joe Torres lap and make it all about him. Most of the veterans got in their required bottle of champagne and then dressed, left. Edwar Ramirez walkin around all creepy pouring beer on people and sayin little, Jeter and Mussina hanging in the coaches office instead of out with the players, just all…. disjointed?
I guess my point is that yes, Joe is praised cause of the way he assuages the egos of the team, but hes created this team of CHILDREN who look to him as a FATHER, playing on the motivation that they don’t want to dissappoint the old man. But since Joe is such a good father, no one actually fears his disdain since hes going to pat them all on the back and tell them hes proud of all of them regardless of the outcome.
Thats really sweet, and it chokes me up, but when you look at a ballclub like the Indians all acting and celebrating like men who just earned something and then see how we look like a bunch of kids on Christmas morning, it just kinda puts things in perspective. The combination of business-as-usual vets like Jeter and immature kids like Cano and Melky led by a good ‘ol grandpa like Joe Torre just doesn’t seem to be motivation enough.
Its evidence enough to hear the Paul O’Neill chant last night. The warrior, the guy who screamed and beat the piss out of water coolers and snapped bats, cause its tough guy stuff, its that attitude that makes people feel they’re ‘manning-up’, you know? You want to act like a bunch of kids on Christmas morning and cry and all this business, do it after the WS victory, after you win the WAR, but the wildcard, DS and CS are all BATTLES, and you smoke your cigarette, drink your whiskey, and then you lock and load for tomorrows battle. For all Joes in-game managing blunders, i honestly think his biggest shortcoming is this nice guy grandpa crap when it comes to dealing with making team chemistry, the team needs to center around the team core – not around a coach. Everyone was playing to keep Joe in the managers office, not to win a world series, and thats not the motivation they need.
I can’t see anyone else managing the team but i don’t know how else you can change the way the team percieves itself. fricken tore up about this…
I know that this is off topic. I was at the game last night. I hated the PA guy. It wasn’t Jim Hall, it was some creepy guy. That, and the fact that it felt like a July night made it seem really weird.
TKinDC all good points!! I guess I didn’t look at it that way.
mclovin…..great name
*subtext to that rant is that i want to point out that Joes ‘grandpa’ style does wonders to get a team through a season, even turning around a backbreaking start into a playoff berth, but for October, its worthless.
great post Rusty — I don’t think there’s a columnist in NY smart enough to write something like that (no offense Pete).
Off topic: Everytime I read this blog I feel like getting laser hair removal for some reason. Is this happening to anyone else?
some very interesting observations there, Rusty. Food for thought. The old football coach/shipbuilder might just be itching for a non-fatherly type
“Its evidence enough to hear the Paul O’Neill chant last night. The warrior, the guy who screamed and beat the piss out of water coolers and snapped bats, cause its tough guy stuff, its that attitude that makes people feel they’re ‘manning-up’, you know?”
chanting Paul O’Neill was ridiculous. the guy was great, but it’s been 6 years. time to let it go. time to move on. those were great teams, but they aren’t coming back. ever.
Moving Giambi will be a tough but not impossible task. The NL is completely out of the question. Even a large market team will not pay $21M or even half of it for a pinch hitter that has little value at 1st base any longer.
The AL because of the DH could get mild interest from only a few teams as long as some contract is eaten.
Mussina’s $11.5M might be easier to move if he waives his no trade clause for a deal to Philly for example, and the Yankees eating some contract.
Farnsworth’s remaining $7M is the easier of the 3.
thnx G.
just the difference between building a team who believes in themselves, or a team that believes in their manager. it all makes for great sentiment and feel good stories and i love that, i really really do. but i do think its very detrimental to our confidence.
the only downside is that building the confidence im talking about takes time, if they swap managers, whoever it is, you hope that he lasts longer than a season cause thats how long its going to take for the team to feel good about themselves. Id say this is what happened from 1996-1998, since the 96 victory was magical and very very unlikely, completely made possible by Mariano Rivera and David Cone. The team didn’t find its absolute steamrolling confidence until 1998 and it carried them till 2001 once they found it. Does Steinbrenner have the patience to keep a manager longer than one unsuccessful season, especially heading into the new stadium in 2009?
I love Donnie Baseball and would hate to see him thrown into the maelstrom as manager of the Yankees. Hopefully, Mattingly asks himself “If 4 world Championships and 12 consecutive postseason appearances aren’t good enough, how can I survive?”.
Maybe they showed Paul on the screen?
Paul O’Neill should be the next Yankee Manager. Just order a generous supply of water coolers.
Rusty, I echo your sentiments. ECHO….. Echo….echo…ec .
Wow, lots of comments in here today. Impossible to read them all, but I guess my display name makes it pretty clear who I want coming in as manager. Let’s hope the LaRussa rumors are just some more reactionary BS like we heard after last year about A-Rod getting traded.
Can a decision about the manager be made at any time, or is it like with the players where you have to wait until after the WS?
Please baseball gods let it be Girardi. I just feel strongly that he is the right guy. He and Donnie would make a great team, as mgr and bench coach, too. They each have different strengths which complement each other very well.
hmmm – yeah i agree time to let go, i was just trying to make a point about the players that fans seem to remember when it comes to winning. if you took a poll in that stadium at that moment, they probably would’ve elected to pinch hit O’Neill for whoever was at the plate – which is absolutely SILLY, but it says alot about which players create airs of confidence among the fans and the players. They don’t want an expensive suit with endorsement contracts, they don’t want a smiling kid who’s barely old enough to drink, they want a friggen man whos gonna go up there, swing the bat with some authority and get friggen angry.
No one on the team like that anymore…
La Russa YUK!!!!!
Couple things… yes, Miller, I work. Just not during the day.
Secondly… I think it’s realistic to think Santana could be had without giving up Hughes or Chamberlain. If he can’t, then forget it. But if you can keep those two, and make a trade for Santana center around Melky and Kennedy, with some combo of Ohlendorf, Marquez and Horne or Wright/Clippard, you do it.
Same goes for Peavy. I have no idea if he’s available, but if he is, you do what you can to get him without losing the two main kids.
In Melky and Kennedy the Twins get two young, cheap and promising guys who have shown they can compete on the major league level, and both have the potential to be stars. Ohlendorf is a great young arm as well, and for good measure, they’d be getting Horne and/or Marquez, both of whom are excellent prospects. It’s a reasonable basis for an offer, I would think.
And as for Melky and Cano… that “chemistry” is great, but they’re not being paid to be buddies. Maybe with Melky gone, Cano focuses even better. It’s not an ideal thing to split them up, by any means, but if it means getting Santana, you do it and let Cano deal. Lots of players lose friends on teams. Lots of players would love to play behind Johan Santana… if they truly want to win.
Jennifer – sorry, is that why they were chanting? I just heard the chant on the radio without getting any explanation. Sorry.
Somone on NYYFans.com said that Jeters new cologne should be called “GIDP”.
Hilarious.
holy christ i am seriously not getting a goddam thing done today. productivity must be down like 90% in NY today.
Rusty i’m not sure just assuming since it came out of no where.
I was at the game last night.
There was a Paul O’Neill chant and several Joe Torre chants.
Rusty
that makes me feel a lot better about Torre leaving. Torre takes a lot of credit for wins, its time to take credit for loses as well. You explained why he is partly to blame.
Rusty, add me to those who think your post was phenomenal. You managed to say what I’ve been feeling for some time now, as I have been very torn about my feelings towards Joe, especially the last few months. I’ll always admire him and respect him, but at some time we do need to move on. It’s good to know that for many of us it is a painful process, regardless of our acceptance of reality.
And as far as the roster. Assuming for a second that A-Rod does opt out (only for a second, cause I do NOT want that to happen!) perhaps the Yankees should sign Rowand for CF, move Melky to right and pick up Abreu’s option and then trade him for either a 2b or 3b. If a 2b, move Cano to third.
The only thing is, outside of Miguel Cabrera, who we’d probably have to trade the farm for (but unlike some of you, I would LOVE to have him on the Yankees, but not if we had to trade the farm) I can’t think of that many 2b or 3bs who might be available in a trade. Perhaps someone like Ian Kinsler if we threw in a mid-level prospect? Or maybe Kelly Johnson from the Braves since they will need an OF to replace Jones.
I am just thinking out loud here, if anyone thinks of something I am missing, please feel free…
Careful on Miguel Cabrerra – - – he weighs as much as Charles Barkley these days and seems to have a bit of an attitude. At least we can be happy that Andruw Jones had a crappy year and we don’t have to worry about overspending on him.
Guys, why don’t we look at this logically.
At the trade deadline, TEX wanted Joba or Hughes in exchange for Teixiera.
Cash wasn’t going to get Gagne for two months unless he parted with Kennedy.
Now, given these two scenarios, what do you think MIN would ask in return for the best pitcher in MLB?
Sorry, Kennedy and a pile of dogsh!t ain’t gonna get it Santana. Forget it.
The Yanks would have to part with Hughes and/or Joba and there is no chance Cashman is going to part with the jewels of the organization.
Abreu has a no trade.
I don’t voluntarily mortgage the farm system to trade for Santana, but it may be required as I expect both the Mets to make a huge play for him and the BOSOX as well…Boston blew every other team out of the water by their 51 million offer that gained rights to dicek. If the sox land Santana, that will be huge trouble for NYY and the quest for #27 anytime soon.
I Initially offer Wang,Melky and a pitcher of their choice from the minor leagues (excluding Ian), all contingent on Santana willingness to sign an extension with NYY. This meets the twins’ need for an inexpensive, yet solid SP to replace Santana and an inexpensive, yet solid CF to replace Tori. As well as a minor league prize that they can hope tilts the balance.
This meets the Yankees need for an ace.
Anything beyond this offer including the requirement of Joba, Hughes and IK, I walk away but late in the game, to drive up the price for the Twins ultimate trading partner.
Im beginning to lean on the idea of bringing back Joe for 1 more year, somehow declare it his last year – 1 more year and done, one way or another. Declare who the successor will be midseason, wether it be Mattingly or Girardi or whoever, let it be known, treat it as a passing of the torch. You want to make the best choice for your club to make it to October, and i don’t see a better manager option out there for this team in 08, especially if it rings true that our FA’s will be more incentivized to return if Joe stays as skipper.
You close out the last season in the old stadium, you bring him back in order to bait back A-Rod, Posada and Mo. You let him coach season lucky number 13 and you see what happens with a new young starting rotation, which will be vastly improved from this season if these kids can fill their potential.
You just cross your fingers that the improved pitching coupled with the ‘usual’ MLB leading offense (cause lets all admit please, that it is a sick offense over the reg season) can get us somewhere. If we can bring back that core group and Alex, I have no doubt that Joe would manage us back into the playoffs next year, and hopefully our improved young rotation could get us deeper into October where our current rotation couldn’t, cause managing alone won’t do it next year, Joe or not.
If it doesnt work out, the story still ‘fits’ better. He came back, he finished his tenure in the old stadium, hes there at the dawn of the new contracts for all the original core players and everyone knows its his last season managing. 2009 rolls around, new stadium new manager new everything, it just feels more…. right? I guess maybe it just doesn’t feel so wrong and tragic and unfair, which seems to be everyones sentiment.
Here i am, making stupid sentimental decisions. OK, go ahead. crucify me.
I was the game last night on the field level and never once heard a Paul O’Neil chant.
People were cheering for Tino because they kept showing him on the jumboscreen, but there was no Paul O’Neil chant that reached the left field side of the stadium.
“I was the game last night on the field level and never once heard a Paul O’Neil chant.”
you could hear it on TV.
Aw man, I didn’t know that Abreu had a no-trade. I knew Philly paid him to waive his no-trade to come here, but I didn’t know he got another one. I wish we weren’t so liberal with those! Anyway, the Yanks could try to pay him to waive it too, but what reason would he have to agree to go to Texas…Atlanta maybe, but not TX. Spammit, this foils my plans! Oh well, Alex will just hafta not opt out now!
As for Miguel Cabrera, it’s true that he’s never met a buffet he didn’t like, haha, but he is such an amazingly talented kid. Used to regularly leave me in awe when I saw him play in Miami. I guess I’ve always had a bit of a baseball crush on him. But there are an awful lot of what if’s and maybe’s – MAYBE he’ll be more disciplined when there’s something at stake, WHAT if he isn’t. But then again there are what ifs and maybes involving any potential acquisition, including Aaron Rowand who is the only position player FA I’m even marginally interested in.
you know what? Tito Francona is a clueless dumb manager and his team moved on… Big Stein is targeting wrong his shoots
Johan Santana is 1-3, with a 3.97 era in 5 PS starts. lost some close games. Good ,but he’s not Koufax. If we could get him when he’s a FA, then great. I would be cautious in trading young talent for him. I believe in spending $ on starting pitching and building the lineup through other means. That was the method that led to 4 WS titles.
To jennifer: I would hate to see Jorge leave, but You need to be objective when dealing with a 36 yr old catcher. Can he play first base? DH more? Questions like these show why Giambi is such a liability.
MO is a pitcher and a freak as a closer. He was lights out this series. He deserves the $.
To HMMMMMMMMMMM: I have said I want AROD on the team. The Yanks are one of maybe 6 options for him so why not. But, 35 is the highest salary in the game. Actually, the way I understand it, he demands to be the highest piad player regardless of the number.
That said; players strike out. Fine. When AROD is going well he is flying out deep to left, center or hitting hard grounders to third. He does not stand thee staring at Paul Byrd meatballs. If The guy demands to be the highest paid player in the game, he must figure it out.
The Yanks under Steinbrenner have had enormous success as well as prolonged mediocrity. Noone denies his willingness to spend $ to win. He also at times has been a disgrace to the team and the sport. That is his legacy.
Strummerson, your words speak VOLUMES! They (media, other MLB fans like the Mariner one you spoke of) think we are all arrogant, spoiled, fair-weather fans. Such garbage.
If you were to put some well-written piece together like a petition or mission statement, (like the one you just did)I would be more than willing to sign it or contribute to it.
Do the media not see the pictures of the FANS outside of Yankee Stadium supporting their TEAM today? I guess not.
I can’t wait until the day when Boston “fans” are viewed the same way. I thought it was deplorable how they overtook Angel Stadium on Sunday. I bet you 3/4 of those “fans” were not fans before 2004. But you never hear the media going on about other teams. Nope, it’s just the Yankees.
I was in upper tier sec 11 and didn’t hear any o’neill chants. there were some torre chants in the 9th.
BBB:
You cannot have Mattingly as Girardi’s bench coach. It would be tantamount to asking Girardi to manage with a gun to his head.
I won’t crucify you Rusty… that’s a emotional but valid point to be made!
hmmmmmm
There was no Paul O’Neil chant. Give it up already. You weren’t there. Why would we lie?
There was a Tino chant when he was on the screen, a Reggie chant when he threw out the first pitch.
Every other chant was for a player or manager who was in the game.
Not once did the crowd rise up and chant “Paul O’neil” and whoever started that rumor is just full of it.
In my section on the left field line, I can hear all the chants from the bleachers and even across the field to the upper deck in RF. You see and hear everything. There was a fight late in the game in upper deck RF stands.
There was no Paul O’Neil chant.
whoa G. Love. swear to god man, honest.
on tv, u could distinctly hear a Paul O’Neill chant, somewhere in the middle innings. Why would anyone lie about that? I think its absurd, truely. But i’m telling you, there was definitely a short lived Paul O’Neill chant on the tv feed, maybe its just the way they mic the stadium, maybe you were away takin a leak, or maybe i heard it wrong, but at least to my ears, i heard it.
On a day like today, out of all the rumors that could be started, why would i start a rumor like that, what do i have to gain? maybe im wrong about what i thought i heard but ya gots ta chill.
BBB:
Mattingly as Girardi’s bench coach won’t work. It would be tantamount to asking Joe to manage with a gun to his head, even more than any Yankee manager always does. Also, JG would be looking for a long term possibility. He’s not going to keep the seat warm for two years. And I don’t think DM wants to bench coach indefinitely.
_People were cheering for Tino because they kept showing him on the jumboscreen, but there was no Paul O’Neil chant that reached the left field side of the stadium._
i didn’t hear it in right field either…
Okay. This Paul O’Neill chant debate is a little silly now. I heard it on TBS as well. Clearly it was a very local chant that was close enough to the TV mikes that it sounded more widespread than it actually was. Can we move on now?
agreed, i commented before reading most of this thread.
they were chanting a$shole to a guy in the 9th near my section though.