Day 2 on Joe Torre Watch commences
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- October
- 10
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Here we are at the Stadium. No Yankees are in the clubhouse.
Meanwhile the Yankees are banning reporters from the Stadium today whose newspapers insisted on having reporters at Joe Torre’s house in Westchester today.
Fortunately, my paper is not among them.
Back later with news as it becomes available.
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on Wednesday, October 10th, 2007 at 11:16 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
No news is good news, I guess.
Thanks for staying on top of this.
are you posting the lineups too….wait….sniff….sniff
The Yankees need to remember their special relationship with their fans – more than any time in my life (Fan since 1977) it truly is a family right now and to kick dad out of the house will have consequences that they may not be willing to endure. Don’t be so hasty to dump Torre – you have a good thing going – we’re all happy to keep this thing the way it s.
What papers were banned?
Call me crazy, but I think Torre is back next year. Why else would the Yankees be so adamant about leaving the guy alone? If he’s out, or if they even THINK he’s out, why protect him?
As much as this series loss hurt, Torre didn’t hit into all those double plays, Jeter did. Torre didn’t turn from an Ace to a zero, Wang did. Hell, when Torre brought in Kyle, Kyle pitched a strong inning. SO how exactly did Torre lose this series? He didn’t. The players did.
I don’t think the Yankees are so dumb as to forget where this team was in May, and where they finished. And to all the knuckle-heads who say “Isn’t it the manager’s job to motivate the team to play from day 1?” my response is: did you WATCH those first two months? Chase Wright, Tyler Clipard, Matt DeSalvo, Abreu hurt, Damon hurt, Wang hurt, Pettitte hurt, Miguel Cairo playing first base for two weeks – WHAT WAS TORRE SUPPOSED TO DO?
Torre stays, inherits a rotation of Chamberlain, Kennedy, Hughes, Wang, Pettitte, and storms through the AL east next year. They’ll never say it publicly, but this was a rebuilding year for the team, and Torre STILL got them into the playoffs. They’re not firing a guy who does that.
Or, I’m wrong and they’re morons.
Has there been a Cashman siting at the Stadium or is he enroute to Tampa today?
A healthy Giambi hitting 30 HR, 16 > he hit this year,
Cano a year older hitting 30 HR, 11 > he hit this year,
Jeter hitting 14 HR, 2 > he hit this year,
and Mike Lowell signed for 3B hitting 25 HR
make up for the 54 HR the Yanks lose by letting go of A-Rod after he opts out.
16 + 11 + 2 + 25 = 54
If you want to give Cano only 26 HR, a modest increase of 7 HR from his 2007, o.k., then some other Yank or combination of Yanks will hit the 4 more HR Cano didn’t hit.
Keep the Torre Dyansty alive for one more year in the old stadium. Start fresh in the New.
Thats my opinion.
Torre had 12 good years here.
But this team needs a little change.
Remember, everyone bashed Torre when they signed him and everyone said he’d be gone in a year.
They want to keep the papers away from his house out of respect and as per his request. My guess is that the usual suspects ie Post, Daily News would be the ones staking out the house
A-Rods not going anywhere. He leaves, he’s branded a mercenary forever, and it seems to me his image is way too important to him to commit that kind of PR mis-step. He’s going to finish what he started in NY; he proved this year that he can perform on the biggest stage in the world. Why leave it?
The Yankees will pay more than anyone else, and NY will heap more endorsement $$$ on him than anywhere else. Boras is doing what Boras does: running his mouth to create artificial pressure so the Yankees outbid themselves.
AROD needs the Yankees more than the Yankees need him. The Yankees can always find more production out there (albeit not at his insane level, but enough to compete with a tremendous lineup). ARod’s image cannot survive if he leaves NY with no ring, in search of another ridiculous payday.
That’s because the Journal is a classy paper,pete and so are you!
Arod don’t be a “mercenary “with Boras your legacy will suffer. You will be known more for being for hire to the highest paying bidder,not a good thing!
Lowell doesn’t come here unless the Bosox have their own collapse/freak out against the Indians. They will sign him if they win.
I agree with Miller about the $$$potential$$$ of having a farewell tour with torre at the helm during the last year at old yankee stadium. They can bill every series with some nostalgia from the past featuring one last horay with the old cast. Think of the marketing that can go along with that$$$$$
Then in 2009 the new guard takes over
“A healthy Giambi hitting 30 HR”
IF I were to believe that a healthy Giambi is even a possibility, Jason may not get enough at bats in 2008 to make 30 HR’s likely. Unless one of the outfielders is moved during the off-season, Jason will get an occasional start at 1st, share DH with Matsui and act a a PH off the bench.
who’s idea was it to sign Giambi to this contract? Christ, its so sad, having a 20million pinch hitter
Torre should be let go.
The Yanks don’t need him ruining at least 2 of the 4 or 5 new bullpen arms to go with a re-signed Rivera and an untradeable last man in the pen Farnsworth. He’ll take all the starters out after 90 pitches or less and make his bullpen pitch 3-4 innings a game. He’s married to the pitch count and is scared to death of GASP! letting his pitchers give as much as they can. He’s a robotic manager who doesn’t have the feel for a game, namely his starter, anymore. He thinks he has Mendoza to Stanton/ Nelson to Rivera when he doesn’t and didn’t in 2007. Even Joba to Mo was useless when you have no bridge between the starter and Joba. B.t.w. no more Joba setting up Mo next year.
Look at what Eric Wedge did with Paul Byrd on Monday night.
Byrd put himself in one jam after another, but Wedge left him alone and let him at least start the sixth. If Torre was managing, he’d have taken Byrd out after 3 IP/ the beginning of the fourth. Look at what Torre did with Wang. You’re down only 2-0 and you take your 19-game winning ace out of the game with bases loaded no outs in the second inning? What is that telling Wang? That could damage Wang’s psyche going into next year if it hasn’t already. Wang couldn’t throw a double-play inducing pitch to give up a run for 2 outs (which I’ll take anytime with bases loaded no outs)?
Another brainlock by Torre is leaving Joba in to pitch the 8th inning with the Yanks up by 5 runs. I don’t wanna hear “He didn’t have confidence in anyone else like Farnsworth” cuz then why was Farnsworth then Veras brought in with the Yanks trailing in an elimination game (Game 4)? So that excuse don’t wash.
The Curse of Ronan Tynen.He shows up Sunday, we blow it on Monday.He showed up after 9/11, and we kept coming back,and look what has happened.
Torre is getting privacy protection from the Yankees because Cashman is involved and he is a class act. I don’t think it’s a sign that they necessarily intend to bring him back. But we’ll see by the end of the week.
As for a rotation of Chamberlain, Kennedy, Hughes, Wang and Pettitte storming through the AL east next year, not so fast. I’m not trying to rain on any parade but let’s be reasonable.
Wang needs to recapture something. He’s been leaving the ball up far longer than just his last two appearances. I hope it’s just a mechanical thing. Pettitte is a proven performer but the option to return is his and he may feel the pull of home more strongly without Torre. Regardless of Jobamania, he’s a rookie and we haven’t seen him throw a full 6 or 7 innings. Hughes looks solid but, like Joba, has only minimal MLB experience. Ditto Kennedy. You have to expect the rooks to have rookie set backs and even if Pettitte returns, he is vulnerable to some DL time or missed starts with his elbow and age. And don’t forget the pressure to use Moose as long as he is on the payroll.
Long story short, there’s no ace on that staff as it stands right now and that’s how they got ushered out of the playoffs again this year. They need to find an ace.
Here’s a question, Pete:
When/if the Boss’s kids get full control, will Hank and Hal be as lavish with Dad’s wallet as he always has been with the win-at-all-costs mentality we all love him for? Or will they worry more about themselves and try and preserve their inheritance? Is Cashmoney’s checkbook about to have tighter restrictions in the not-so-distant future?
“You’re down only 2-0 and you take your 19-game winning ace out of the game with bases loaded no outs in the second inning? ”
That was the right move. You dont keep Wang in there during an elimination game. No Way, No how. especially after just 3 days rest and the fact that he already gave up a homerun, which he doesnt. Leaving Wang longer would have terrible.
murphydog, I agree. However, I expect one of either Hughes or Joba to fill that Ace slot. Both have the ability and stuff to do so, I’m confident one of them will (if not both). I’m half hoping and half expecting that to be next year, but wouldn’t be shocked if it took a year longer than that.
Good First Post Jeff
How many of Torre’s options were limited by bad strategic decisions? Shall we….Pavano, Farnsworth, Igawa, Giambi.
This isn’t to hang it on Cashman – but we were haunted all season by the ghosts of bad contracts. Cashman deserves credit for protecting the farm even when his neck was on the block a couple of years ago and again this year. But too often 20% of the stable was filled with nags.
Steinbrenner too has saddled the team with embarassments simply because he got it into his head at some time that he wanted the player in pinstripes ie. Conseco. Sometimes it worked out ie. Strawberry and Gooden, sometimes it didn’t – but the constant here, making it all come together is the mature, steady hand steering the ship – Joe Torre.
He was leaving the ball up again and gave up 2 hr’s the 1st game and another in game 4. 3 HR’s in what, 7 or 8 innings compared to 9 or so all year. yes, it was the right move to take him out. Whatever he was missing (the sink to his sinker), he hadn’t found it and we couldn’t afford to leave him in longer until we were down 6 or 8 to nothing.
Joe T is the straw that stirs the drink.
Every pole taken on tv sports and other papers have Torre’s fans in favor of his return,there is safety in numbers.
The longer we waitthe better it looks for Torre.
pat
Giambi is making $26M total next year ($21M salary for 2008 + his $5M buyout for 2009) thus will be the everyday DH with other players starting there to get rest from time to time.
He will not be a $26M pinch-hitter and he will most likely never see 1B again if the Yanks can help it.
Matsui will have to move to 1B because Damon owns LF now (he’s just better than Matsui there and like Matsui signed for $13M/yr. through 2009), Giambi DH. As great a gloveman as Mientkiewicz is, he is not good enough to play there every day and there’s no guarantee he returns. Maybe he figures “Hey, my defense is good enough where I can play every day, I can make more money as a starting 1B, and I got a World Series ring, so I don’t have to accept a backup, part-time, or platoon role”. Phillips is a complete unknown quantity cuz while he posted solid BA (.292 BA), his HR and RBI were alot to be desired (just 2 HR and 25 RBI in a little less than 200 AB) and he got hurt.
Giambi hit 14 HR in an injury-ruined year, so it stands to reason a healthy Giambi will at least double that (28 HR),
I rounded it off to 30 HR.
Again Giambi will not be a $26M bench player/ version of Shelley Duncan.
I think we need one more year with Joe… and Donnie as his designated successor.
I honestly do not think that Girardi or LaRussa or even Mattingly is an upgrade right now and a period of transition would make sense. It would also aid in re-signing players.
I hope Alex decides to stay. Making a lot of money is nice, but how much do you really need? There are some things that money can’t buy and the rewards of playing with the Yankees are priceless, imho.
I hope Jorge and Mo will re-sign as well.
Just my opinion, for whatever it’s worth.
Oh, and one more thing: Skip Caray SUCKS!
murphydog –
I completely agree with your assessment regarding the rookies. Their potential is unlimited, but it is still largely potential. I choose to believe that they will be effective pitchers at the major league level, but I also realize that in all likelihood there will be bumps in the road, growing pains, if you will. To not keep that in mind is to invite disappointment.
I am more comfortable with Hughes. In the season he just finished, he was called up earlier than expected and did fairly well, even pitching a no-hitter through some 7 innings. He suffered a set-back (the injuries to his hamstring and ankle) and on his return to the Yankees, it took a while to find his stride again. By September, he was pitching effectively, culminating in an impressive outing in Game 3. He showed a lot of moxie and he is definitely promising.
We do need to see Joba as a starter, and I don’t think we’ll be too disappointed. He’s definitely got the drive and it will be interesting to see how he works a game incorporating all his pitches.
Ian Kennedy, however, did not have as much exposure, and although he was impressive as well, I almost expect him to have the most bumps along the way, and I’m not sure he starts the season in NY, but February is a long way away.
Still I’d rather have those 3 unproven guys on the staff than many of those who’ve been on the pitchers mound the last several years.
And I think even Wang knows he’s got some work to do. But he’s worker and he’s proud and I think he’ll be okay. Not a #1, but probably a very, very good #3.
No Morre Torre – lets not forget too that alex and doug are dating, so if alex goes, i seriously doubt doug returns.
Banning those papers is a good move.
For all the complaints about Torre’s use of the pen, I have to ask, what role do the pitching coach and bench coach play in all that? and how about the players?
Torre has Midas’ touch from 96-01. What changed? Did he go from stud to dud? Or did he lose Zim and Mel, along with a core of outstanding relievers? I go with the latter.
I love Donnie Baseball, and Gator, too, but coaches aren;t there to bring back fond memories, they’re there to advise the manger and help the players. In two years Gator hasn’t been able to harness Kyle’s stuff (although the new wind-up thing may work out, it just happened too late in the year). As for Mattingly – the team certainly was more aggressive this year witht he SB, hit and run, etc. Is that his influence? The personnel? I don’t know. But foisting the bullpen woes on Torre is a bit disingenuous.
As for his love of pitch counts…that’s the game today, he ain’t the only one. Look what Lou and Dusty have done to their staffs over the years and Torre looks a LOT better. You really want him running Hughes out there in his third start for 120 pitches cause Torre “feels” Hughes is on that night? What happens when he goes on the DL two weeks later with “tiredness in his shoulder?”
Give Torre more than two guys int he pen who are willing to PITCH, not just hurl, and all of a sudden he’ll be a genius again.
I thought they needed to make a change as maybe Torre was to loyal to some of these guys. The more I read about the respect he has around the league, I now think he should come back for one more year. Announce Torre as the manager for ‘08 with Mattingly/Girardi set to replace him in 2009. The players are going to play just as hard for Torre even though he won’t be back the following year. Also, make sure that there are some sort of “Joba Rules” in place for all the young pitchers to ensure there isn’t undue tax put on their arms (torres one weakness). I’m sure plenty of people are ready for a change and thats fair enough, but it’s been a great 12 years and the Yankees owe it to the legacy thats been built to handle this in a professional way.
Mauro, I didn’t definitrly say Lowell will come to the Yanks. It was more like a hypothetical which could become reality cuz figure it out: A-Rod opts out, Yanks let him go, A-Rod signs elsewhere, Yanks need a 3B, Mike Lowell is a 3B, Lowell is a free agent, Boston might not want to give Lowell the I think minimum 2 years $20M ($10M/yr. -Lowell made $9M this year) contract Lowell will probably want.
Maybe you don’t know this, but Lowell came from the Yankees farm system and speaks fondly of the Yanks even though he had a brief cup of coffee with them in 1998 (I think 4 for 15 with a run scored or driven in). He also will want a nice contract after perhaps his finest all-around year. If Boston gives that to him, he’ll stay, if not, he’ll most likely go elsewhere and I’d think the Yanks would be at the top of his list esp. if A-Rod signs elsewhere.
LET’S not forget andy. Even with the sore back if the bullpen was any good/and the yanks scored runs for him in april and may, he could easily have had 18 or 19 wins and for my monet is a good an ace if not a better one than wang. just a hindsight observation ….
Also, keep Joe, but if he has to go Donnie , or Bowa, or Pena, please
It’s time we do two things.
-Somehow ship off Jason Giambi to another team, if you have to eat 50-60 Percent of his salary so be it. His contract is hideous, he won’t stay healthy, and he’s clogging up the roster. Getting rid of him will enable us to keep Matsui as the DH and Damon in Left.
-It’s time to get a real first baseman in the Bronx. I’m tired of the merry go round that is the Yankees First Base. We havent had one since Tino Martinez. We’ve had partial 1B, guys who can’t hit but can field, can hit some but can’t field, career minor leaguers, and guys who have attempted to switch positions but it never works out.
Who is that person you say? Well, that’s a mystery to me.
As a loyal Yankee fan how the Yankees handles this speaks volumes to the baseball community.Yankee haters think we suffer from ingratitude.(4 WS in 4 yrs) One person put it best. If Joe Had spread those 4 wins over the 12 yrs,he wouldn’t be facing departure.
We are spoiled!!!!
Global Warming
Adam Dunn. And before anyone gives me crap about his defense, having gone to school in Ohio I have watched plenty of Reds games and his D really isnt all that bad. Plus he crushes the ball.
My first post here. I’ve been reading a lot of comments this season and the past few days to gauge how we are reacting to the latest 1st round exit.
a few things:
- People who are complaining about Jeter must be yearning for the days of Spike Owen, Mike Gallego, and Tony Fernandez. Who? Exactly.. (their offensive numbers are just HORRENDOUS). I think Jeter’s defense is sub-par and will be more so with every passing season but we could do a LOT worse at SS.
- Going forward it looks like the Yankees greatest need is the starting rotation and the bullpen. Given the fact that the FA market for pitchers seems completely out of control, it may have to be either the kids pitching next season or another Pavano/Wright/Neagle signing.
As for the bullpen..I don’t know how Mark Shapiro finds guys like Perez and Betancourt and keeps them but patience and smart signings seems to be the key vs. making a splash by doing something like going out and overpaying for a big name veteran past his peak (ex: Scott Shields!). This is the mistake we have made in the past with paying sluggers for their past accomplishments rather than on future production. I hope we don’t repeat it with the rotation and bullpen instead of the lineup
- Lastly…everyone says you need pitching in October and I guess to a certain degree it’s true. But..what makes guys like Papi and Manny thrive and our lineup to collectively wither? I want to say that CC and Carmona are really great pitchers..and they are..but aren’t Lackey and Escobar just as good or in the same league? Is it just about who peaks at the right time?
Obviously the reason we lost is because the Indians starters were better top to bottom, their relievers were lights out, and their offense came through with some ridiculously timely hits.
We didn’t.
Is it because the team has flaws in the way it was built or due to other reasons? If so. Why?????
All this, “Its the players fault and not Torre’s” is nonsense.
You mean to tell me Joe Torre is only responsible for the wins and has nothing to do with the losses?
If that’s the case, NO manager should ever be fired. They should be like Supreme Court Justices and given lifetime appointments.
The reality is, the team has been trending downward since 2004.
This year was ANOTHER season of a downward trend:
Fewest wins since 2000.
No division title for the first time since 1997.
Four straight post-season series losses for the first time in the HISTORY of the franchise.
They are now 4-13 in their last 17 post-season games.
You mean to tell me the manager has ZERO to do with that?
If your answer is “yes”, fine. Then, the Yankees don’t need to pay 7.5 million a year for a manager because he has nothing to do with the success of the team.
You can’t have it both ways.
Torre had a remarkable 12 year run. But, its over. They need new direction and new leadership to seek an end of this downward trend.
Put it another way. If there are never any ramifications for season ending disappointments, how does anything change?
Sometimes, a new voice, despite what the players want, is needed. Perhaps, if the players weren’t so comfortable, they would perform better. Its not the players call on who should manage the team.
And, let’s can all this, “Its the 80’s again” nonsense.
Its the 80’s again if:
They have 3 managers by the AS Break.
They have 2 GM’s by August.
They trade Hughes, Cano, Chamberlain and Kennedy for two 36 year old DH’s, a 37 year old starter, and a 40 year old knuckleballer.
THEN, its the 80’s again.
Until then, stop being so kneejerk with the Peter Gammons-like doom and gloom predictions. NONE of which will occur.
Joe Torre wasn’t the sole reason for 4 World Championships and he’s not the sole reason for the team’s inability to perform in the post-season any longer. However, as with ALL managers, there comes a time when your run with a team ends.
That’s where it is right now with Torre and the Yankees. Hopefully, both parties part amicably and the re-tooling of the team goes forward.
JeffG
The manager thus Torre is the one who ultimately makes pitching change decisions. Obviously he does so on the counsel of his pitching coach and maybe his bench coach although I doubt Mattingly had a say. Thing is Guidry had ZERO pitching coach experience before this year and it showed. Guidry either isn’t ready to be a pitching coach yet or should never be one, at least not for the Yankees. He’s really an advice guy, not an instructor guy as name me one pitcher, starter or reliever, he turned around this year? A good pitching coach should be able to straighten out at least one pitcher, even if it’s a guy who barely pitched for the team. Guidry straightened out no one. Tony LaRussa’s pitching coach Dave Duncan (father of Shelley
has straightened out many a pitcher. Here’s one : Jason Isringhausen who couldn’t hack it as a starter. Hence why I want Tony LaRussa and Dave Duncan to replace Torre and Guidry.
B.t.w. to all the LaRussa bashers: Who’s won more World Series after the Yanks won the 2000 World Series, Torre or LaRussa? LaRussa (2006 Cardinals). Who has a better record in the World Series after 2000, Torre or LaRussa? LaRussa
(1-1 to Torre’s 0-2).
You go with Torre losing Zimmer then Stottlemyre, all the more reason to let go of Torre.
Yeah, give Torre 2 good relievers so he burns them out by August then he’ll have to go to scrubs like Farnsworth, Bruney, Ramirez, etc. ad nauseum (not them, guys like them, I don’t want them pitching for the Yanks again), overuse what reliable, trustowrthy reliever he has remaining in the pen, and keep his starters in longer.
I didn’t say leave Hughes in to throw 120 pitches. How about 100 or 105 not 90? Fausto Carmona threw well over 100 pitches in Game 2 of the 2007 A.L.D.S., thankfully for Cleveland it was Wedge not Torre managing the team. You can’t take out Hughes with 90 pitches and a 4-1 lead going into the 9th and go to Mo all the time as that will tire Mo.
SJ
Sure Torre has lost games with bad decisions. The point is he didn’t lose THIS series. The players did.
Mattingly as manager prevents Jeter from hitting into four rally killing double lays this series? Mattingly makes Wang pitch like the Ace he’s supposed to be? Mattingly motivates the team to get one bleepin’ hit with runners in scoring position and two outs?
Sorry. I’m not buying.
Stuff happens. If firing the manager makes you feel better, fine. But don’t couch it in some theory that this series would have turned out any differently with a different manager. Games weren’t lost because of poor bullpen use, bad lineup decisions, or an over-abundance of green tea.
The players had a bad four game stretch. Simple as that.
No More Torre-
He was getting paid alot of money this year too. Yanks seemed more receptive this year to try and field the best team rather than focus on contract. If it was all contract and not performance driven, Melky would have been sitting on the bench when everyone got healthy. While Matsui might be wiling to take on 1st base, there are no guarantees he can pull it off.
Mientkiewicz has gone on record inthe papers this morning saying that he wants to come back in any role they want him in and he’s only sorry he never got the opportunity to play for the Yanks sooner. Doesn’t sound like a guy all that concerned about starting for another team next year.
History has given me no reason to think that Giambi will be healthy for a year. The past 4 years say he won’t. Jason sounds like a nice guy but he’s no longer the Jason Giambi player you want him to be.
I agree with you that the last thing the Yanks need is a 26 million dollar PH. They would be better served in the long run by eating a big chunk of his contract and trying to get him to agree to a trade that might get them back something they could use. The Angels are looking for a big bat and S. Cal is where he grew up and closer to his Vegas home. While eating the contract might hurt, they could get a player or prospects back that could help more now and in the future.
pink yankees hats rule,
I’ve beens posting long before this thread that we needed better hitting and pitchin coaches.The team slumped at the same time,as a team. that wasn’t torre’s fault alone.
Tweak the coaching in those areas,and things will be different. what Joe did to get these guys turned around the second half, was remarkable.
Larussa’s team tanks the second half check his record,and That’s when he starts calling out players to the media(what a cad!)
Everyone keeps bringing up the fact of how the Yanks turned the season around after such an awful start and they wouldn’t have done it wthout Torre.
Ok, fine, maybe.
BUT, at some point you have to talk about the way they have come out of the gate so poorly, and not just this year. Sure we had rotation issues, but we all saw plenty of games early on that the Yanks probably should have one, if not for poor managerial decisions.
Maybe if they weren’t in the position that they had to climb out of these holes every year, the team wouldn’t be so spent come postseason time, and maybe they would go in with a greater sense of confidence.
Just a thought.
Someone up above said Matsui at first. I don’t like Matsui at first. Matsui doesn’t play first. Keep Mientkiewicz at first–he makes Alex comfortable and his glove is worth it. You can even have him platoon with Andy Phillips to have a lefty/righty, and then have Giambi/Duncan come in in later innings if you want the big bat. And if someone makes the money argument, I’m not listening. The Yankees have the money. Who cares.
I Think AROD is gone. Petitte is gone, and Mariano is Gone. Not sure on Posada. The Red Sox will win the World Series and it will be very tough next year.
Money talks,and Arod the “hireling, Mercenary”walks!!!
How do you know Jeff?
Is it really, “as simple as that”? They haven’t had a “bad 4 game streak”. They have had a bad 4 year streak in the post-season.
4-13 isn’t a misprint. Its reality.
Perhaps if Torre didn’t use Vizcaino ELEVEN times in the second half of the year when they had leads of 4 or more runs, he is fresher in September and October. He burned out another arm in the bullpen. Something that can’t be ignored when evaluating his future. That’s why the Joba Rules were instituted in the first place. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the manager.
Perhaps if, for the second time in the last 3 years, they did’t waltz through the first two months of the season, they would have won the division and had home field throughout the post-season. This year, with the Angels banged up, it made a difference.
Perhaps if he doesn’t start Wang, who hasn’t had his sinker since September, on 3 days rest, you have a different result.
Perhaps, if he pulls him after the first inning, when EVERYBODY could see he had nothing, they aren’t in a 4 run hole after two.
We can play the “what if” game all we want and see both sides of the issue.
However, the results are the results and you can’t change them. To say, “he didn’t lose this series, the players did”, is incorrect. They ALL lost the series.
When you are the manager, as Bill Parcells always says, you are what your record says you are. The fact is, the team IS trending downward, and has since Game 4 of 2004 (a series Torre played a HUGE part in losing) and, at some point, you have to make a change.
It seems like the Yankees feel this is the time. He is no longer under contract with the team. He certainly hasn’t earned a contract extension, so what’s left to do?
Give him one more year? That would be the WORST thing you can do because George would be all over him from Day One of ST. THEN, you have remants of the 80’s all over again.
In fact, I submit, its more of a slap in the face to Joe Torre to give him a one year deal than it is to not re-sign him.
Its either don’t re-sign him or 3 more years. At this point, its better for the Yankees to end the relationship rather than re-upping him for 3 more years.
Its best for both sides. Sign him for one more year, THEN it gets ugly. No need for that and its not in the best interests of the team, IMO.
Does anyone know if there is a stat somewhere that shows avg. innings pitched of Yanks starters vs that of the rest of the league?
All the Joe detractors talk about him burning out bullpen arms. Short and bad starting pitching is what burns out bullpen arms. If the starters only go 5 or 6 innings and there are only 2 or 3 guys in the pen who can get it done, they are going to be used.
I have to laugh at all the people who fear it’ll be like the 1980s again cuz check this (from someone who watched the 1980s Yanks):
The 1980 Yanks finished 103-59 and had the misfortune like alot of other teams to play a 5-game A.L.C.S. I think they would’ve beaten the Royals in a 7-gamer. The 1981 Yanks went to the World Series, albeit in a strike-shortened season split into two seasons. I don’t really count that season for anyone, but it was what it was and the Yanks finished second best. They tanked in 1982 but bounced back with a nice 91-71 record in 1983, but Baltimore was 98-64 better. They did o.k. in 1984 then almost won the division in 1985 (97-65). They had a good 1986 (90-72) but Boston had prime Roger Clemens go 24-4, obviously the difference maker.
The Yanks finished 89-73 in 1987 with Guidry hurt most of the year and Claudell Washington having to log way more time holding down injured Rickey Henderson’s slot than the team wanted. Also no one really stepped up outside of Randolph, Mattingly, and Winfield. The division was so good that year, the Yanks finished FOURTH. The 1988 team did o.k. then the 1989 Yanks closed out the decade with the first of four bad seasons. Not having Dave Winfield all of 1989 or anyone like good to prime Guidry didn’t help matters. So we’re talking only 2 bad seasons (1982 and 1989) out of 10. The problem with the 1980s Yanks is they never had the #2 or #3 behind 1980-87 Guidry to win the division, simple as that, and they never replaced Guidry when he went downhill after ‘86. They won more games and spent more money than any other team, all for naught.
I could be wrong, but the 1983 and 1985 Yanks would’ve won the wildcard had there been a wildcard then, I’m pretty sure they would’ve in 1985. Like San Francisco missing the postseason by a game with a 103-win season in 1993 cuz their division rival Atlanta won 104 games prompted M.L.B. to institute the wildcard and ultimately realignment, FOUR A.L. East teams finishing with 89 wins or better (Yanks included)
and Minnesota winning their division with 85 freaking wins should’ve prompted M.L.B. to at least institute realignment if not the wildcard as well. That’s even more ridiculous.
So that dispels the myth that the 1980s Yanks were bad. Yes, bad in that they never reached the postseason after 1981, but they were competitive 8 out of 10 years (every year savwe 1982 and 1989), highly competitive in 6 of them (1980, 1981, 1983, 1985, 1986, and 1987), also-rans in 1984 and 1988 (cuz they didn’t have a viable #2-3 in ‘84 or a viable front three in ‘88).
Blame Torre if you like…who are you going to blame next year…same thing is going to happen. Stick with the yough guys…they are the future…cut ties with Giambi, Abreau, AROD and all the other guys who have never won anything!
Jeff, I hope yor are right and Torre will be back at least one more year.
Arod ,aka “Show me the Money”
I’ll ,hit alot of home runs during the season to help my personal home run ,and hof records,but count me out in postseason “they don’t pay me enough.”
Heres a proposed trade which I read from some paper, Bob Klapish(sp?) I believe.
Phil Hughes, Robinson Cano, B Prospect
For
Johan Santana.
I’d like to hear from the wonderful blog majority if possible!
I personally would do that deal in a heartbeat.
And just think, we most likely would have at least our 27th title now had Torre not brought Jeff Weaver into Game 4 of the 2003 WS while leaving Mo in the pen. That was one of the worst and most unforgivable moves a major league manager has ever made.
catya, what the devil are you talking about right now?
No More Torre makes some good points….
I say we replace “Torre” with “no more torre”
Charlie Manuel got a two year extension and is being considered for Manager of the Year for doing exactly what Torre did this year.
i’m wondering if all the folks saying “keep torre for one more year” said the same thing this time last year…
Hughes, Cano, and prospects for Santana? No thanks.
Maybe if they can package Wang as part of a deal, but I don’t want to see any of the big 3 young arms go.
Torre has made boneheaded in-game decisions, no doubt about it. But the Boss’ pronouncement had to do with THIS series. I’m not sure how Torre – or anyone “better” – could have made decisions to save THIS series. Going to Wang? Did that seem like such a bad idea given the alternatives, or does it just look heinous in hindsight? Was he supposed to make Clemens’ hamstring all better? Is there another manager who could have dispatched the bugs? If the idea is to start fresh, that’s fine. But is he’s not getting brought back based on losing to Cleveland, it’s a cop-out.
SJ
“Perhaps if Torre didn’t use Vizcaino ELEVEN times in the second half of the year when they had leads of 4 or more runs, he is fresher in September and October.”
Who else does he go to? Kyle? Bruney? They didn’t get the WC lead until August 30, and on sept 15 they lead by a mere two games. So they’re supposed to “save” Viz for the playoffs, but maybe miss the playoffs? Who else does he go to?
“Perhaps if, for the second time in the last 3 years, they did’t waltz through the first two months of the season, they would have won the division and had home field throughout the post-season.”
Waltz? Did you watch the games? Did you see the roster? They were DECIMATED by injuries. 4/5 of the rotation. Damon, Abreu, Giambi. Philips, Mientkiewicz. All DL’d or playing injured for LONG stretches of the season. Waltz? You better go look back at the transaction reports and see how fast the injuries were flying.
“Perhaps if he doesn’t start Wang, who hasn’t had his sinker since September, on 3 days rest, you have a different result.”
Ok, that’s fair. But the alternative was Moose, and how’d he do? So do you take your shot with your 19 game winner, or go with the vet with diminished stuff? I’m not gonna crucify a manger for making that call.
This lose sucked, and if blaming Torre makes you feel better, then go feel better. But jumpin jeebus on a stick, Torre ain’t the one swinging the bat or throwing the ball. And swinging and throwing are what sunk us, not deciding who would do the swinging or the throwing.
Torre’s the best manager for this team.
It could be worse…Willie Randolf could be the manager
Ellen, without all those other shortcomings, the announcement wouldn’t have been made. Losing this series was just the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Even though that statement by Steinbrenner was moronic and self destructive.
This year was ANOTHER season of a downward trend:
Fewest wins since 2000.
Yeah, 94 wins. More wins than 10 other teams in the AL and more wins than all the teams in the NL. Terrible.
No division title for the first time since 1997.
And a division title is always a prerequisite for a championship team. See ‘02, ‘03, ‘04 and ‘06 Champions.
Four straight post-season series losses for the first time in the HISTORY of the franchise.
Prior to they were 18-5 in post-season series under Torre. Find me another manager in Yankees HISTORY that was able to guide their team to that amount of post-season success.
They are now 4-13 in their last 17 post-season games.
And they were 71-31 in Torre’s first 102 post-season games.
Did you really think they would continue to play at that level forever against the best teams in baseball.
Not really a downward trend. Just the law of averages coming around.
There is no way in hell I trade Cano. He is the only position prospect (I consider Melky a mediocre success) so far that looks like he’ll be a stellar player for the Yanks going forward.
I would not touch him, even for Santana.
just be glad baseball does not have a salary cap or all those records we be down the drain. This is the worlds highest paid team of bums.
I think Bob said it best:
Hughes, Cano, and prospects for Santana? No thanks.
But this isn’t his first 5 years as manager, its NOW.
That’s why its a downward trend.
Honestly, that’s the problem with some Yankee fans. They are fixated with living in the past.
That’s why Bernie Williams and Paul O’Neill’s names are always chanted at the Stadium.
We are talking about NOW. This isn’t about the “law of averages” catching up. That’s nonsense.
They went out in the first round of the playoffs to a team they were 6-0 against in the regular season.
Are you going to tell me now the Cleveland Indians are some juggernaut?
You evaluate a manager in what he is doing NOW and where you want to go in the future. On both ends, he isn’t the guy right now. He’s not the guy for now and he’s not the guy for the future. Geez, Torre himself knows that, which is why he was speaking about the team in the past tense the other night.
Nobody likes changes. But, let’s not act as if its something that is insane to do. When you go 4-13 in your last 17 post-season games anywhere, especially NY, your job is on the line. Joe Torre knows that and, if he was the GM or owner of this team, and his manager had that record in the post-season, he would be looking at making a change.
Its what happens in sports when you don’t win.
Is there any truth to SI’s Jon Heyman column about a rift between Cash and Torre during this past year? According to Heyman, Cash stuck his neck out for the guy last year, and it appears that Torre may have thrown Cash under the bus on the Bernie Williams decision.
I’m Torre fan for his patience and ability to deal with the egos of these previous squads. But sometimes a new voice is needed.
Andrea
About Arods Greed !
Yes Pat, and those 2 relievers will be overused thus misused and abused to the point where they will be of little or no use which means the second, lesser line of attack has to log more innings. The Yanks should concentrate on re-signing Mo and Vizcaino, somehow dumping Farnsworth (offer him and $4M of his $5.75M for next year at this point so he costs his taker on $1.75M and the Yanks can clear that to sign a backend of the bullpen guy), and signing 4 new guys for the pen more than re-signing A-Rod cuz it’s pitching which wins in the end.
Why do you think the Yanks i.e. Cashman and Nardi Contreras instituted “The Joba Rules”? So Torre wouldn’t overuse thus misuse and abuse Joba.
The only other 2007 Yankees starter to average over 6 innings a start was Ian Kennedy, but Kennedy made only 3 starts (19 IP).
Andrea:
Matsui’s days in LF are over. Damon is a better LF than him and the LF now. Both are making $13M next year and the same in 2009. Neither can be the CF cuz Cabrera owns CF now. Giambi is the DH next year cuz he’s not being paid $26M total to be a part-time DH/ pinch hitter. Mientkiewicz is a solid backup 1B but that’s it. He is not a viable everyday player for a team expected to make the postseason and contend for a World Series title this year. Yes, he had a great September, but the long and short of it was he posted a measly 5 HR and 22 RBI total and just doesn’t have the HR and RBI capability the Yanks/ any contending team needs at 1B. He doesn’t hit for average or post high OBP or SLG thus high OPS either. Again he’s a solid backup 1B and I’d like the Yanks to re-sign him for another year and at least what he made this year ($1.5M, I’m cool with him getting a little raise, say $1.75M.)
Matsui has to play 1B or he, Damon, or Giambi have to go as in be traded. Damon is the only guy I could see being moved unless the Angels want Giambi, he’s willing to go there, and the Yanks can get the Angels to pick up as much of Giambi’s salary as possible (the Yanks would probably have to pick up at least half of the tab, but maybe not, maybe less -depends on the talks I guess.)
How do you think Joe Torre would have done managing the Rockies or Cubs…should have gotten Lou last year.
could someone tell me how a trade for Johan would work as far as getting him an extension?
do we make a trade and follow with extension talks or is there a way we can work towards an agreement with Johan’s agent while the trade is being negotiated?
I would venture every day there is no news that he has been replaced, the likelihood increases Torre will stay.
Damon and Giambi are the two most untradabe players in baseball….Matsui can be traded if you eat part of his salary. These are bad contracts and the GM needs to look in the mirror
It’s sort of ironic that this is the series that gets Joe fired.
His “in game” management can be horrible at times and he is generally too loyal to veterans, but in this particular series I actually think he did everything right. I really got the impression that he learned a lot from last year’s ALDS mistakes.
And let me repeat my earlier point…
Charlie Manuel got a two year extension and is being considered for Manager of the Year for doing exactly what Torre did this year.
No to the Santana for Hughes, Cano & prospect trade.
To me Cano would be the sticking point in that trade as much as Hughes. Cano has shown in the past 2 years that he is not a fluke. This guy has a gold glove and a silver slugger in his future.
catya: so you’re saying the reason he’s not that good in the postseason is because of his greed? that’s quite possibly one of the craziest things I’ve ever heard.
SJ:
“That’s why Bernie Williams and Paul O’Neill’s names are always chanted at the Stadium.”
Usually you have some of the best posts on here, but I have to disagree. The reason those names are chanted are the same reason fans went nuts when Reggie threw out the first pitch. The fans appreciate what those players did when they were around, so when those players come back (or in Bernie’s case, simply the first day he wasn’t there, I haven’t heard his name chanted since), the fans chant in appreciation. They chanted for Tino when he was shown on the bit screen the other night, to show appreciation, to show that we haven’t forgotten how great he was when he was around. There was also a Rudy chant (not quite as much…) when they showed Rudy Giuliani on the screen.
I agree sometimes fans live in the past, but I really have to disagree that that’s why they chant those players’ names.
Catya and others,
Manager: I’ve read a lot about Torre burning out good relievers so they have nothing left in the tanks for the postseasons. Thinking back, there may be a point here. The first name that leapt to mind was Tom Gordon. Flash took a lot of crap from fans for his postseason performance but that season he pitched a lot of innings.
On the other hand..during the regular season when a starter is struggling..fans are screaming bloody murder if Torre leaves him in “too long” and he gets shelled.
——————————————————
Pitching coach: I like Gator for sentimental reasons.
I haven’t seen anything to suggest that he is a pitching coach who can help a pitcher improve a la Rick Peterson, Chris Duncan (mentioned by someone above), or….Leo Mazzone (who may have just had the good fortune of Smoltz, Maddux, Glavine and the bad fortune of the current crap in Baltimore)
I haven’t seen anything to suggest he’s a horrible pitching coach other than I guess..Wang failing to get his sinker down..Moose’s late season collapse and mini-comeback..Clemens just showing his ancient-ness. Would a good pitching coach gotten more out of Jeff Karstens, Tyler Clippard etc?
I guess the idea is that a pitching coach can squeeze the most out of whatever level of talent he’s given to work with.
The best recent example I can think of is what Rick Peterson did (or didn’t do?) with Ollie Perez.
Scew it let’s beg Mel Stottlemyre come back?
Hitting coach:
No clue here. If we give Downs credit for the regular season offensive juggernaut do we give him blame for the 4 game crapfest?
I guess the real question here is..
How much are managers and coaches able to help/influence their players?
IMHO… a manager or coach’s primary responsibility is to do everything he can to put his players in a position to succeed.
Part of this is managing egoes and keeping the clubhouse positive by talking to players, setting expectations, manging who gets playing time. Torre seems to be pretty good at thsi
The other part is in-game managing decisions and managing the bullpen.
Managers can def. screw up a game. I can’t point to that many games where Torre committed an egregious Grady little-esque bad decision and destroyed his team’s chances of winning.
sorry global, but no way in hell. Cano is an all-star 2B, one of the best in the league and still only 24, showing this year his power is still developing. Hughes is a future ace, possibly as early as next year. Santana is nasty, but there’s no way I trade a 21 year old with nasty stuff and HUGE upside along with a position player of Cano’s caliber.
complain all you want about torre, but calling this a downward trend is sad. Since the yankees lost 4 to the red soxs, guess how many teams have won more than one playoff series in the playoffs in consecutive years? 1 team, the cards of 05 and 06. And which team from the the WS04 on have won more than one playoff series in any of the years (04,05,06,07)? Besides the Cards, the Red Soxs 04 and this year.
So yes, it is a trend, its a trend that is happening all over BASEBALL. not the yankees.
“Keep the Torre Dyansty alive for one more year in the old stadium. Start fresh in the New.”
That’s where I’m at with all of this. Donnie needs more experience in my opinion. One more year as a bench coach would give him just that. If you resign Torre than you get Jorge, Mo, most likely Pettitte along with him. With all those guys back maybe that holds some weight with the Arods decision to return. If you bring in an outsider you risk losing all of them. Where does that put this team next year? Sometimes change is good but all this during the LAST season at the original Yankee stadium.
With a healthy young staff, all of the old guard back, and Torre managing we have a good chance of doing better than we did this year. Bring in someone new next season to manage and we may be looking at a very different team out there.
Don’t get me wrong, it could work out for the best. But we know what we would be getting with Torre. With someone new we have no idea. And that would put us in a situation where this past Monday could indeed have been the last Yankees post season game at the old stadium? I certainly do not want to risk that.
Hughes and Cano is too much to give for anyone, even Santana. Hughes is the best pitching prospect on the team (yes, he’s better than Joba) and Cano is the second best second baseman in the game.
No More Torre: you can’t just shove Matsui at first. You have to see if he can do it first. And it’s not really fair to look at Mientkiewicz’s HR/RBI numbers since he was out for 1/3 of the season.
I do not like the idea of shoving an offense guy at first base for the sake of having an offense guy. I like defense at first. The Yankees have above average offense at 3rd and above average offense at 2nd to make up for it. You can’t just shove Matsui at first without seeing if he has the ability to do it. Let Cashman worry about what to do with the rest of the players. And who cares if you have a $13M pinch hitter/4th outfielder/DH. It’s not your money and the Yankees have the money. I hate when people harp over the money thing. The money is already spent and based on picking up Clemens for so much this year, it’s obviously not keeping them from spending more money.
Giambi…bad contract
Pavano…bad contract
Clemens…bad contract
Randy Johnson…bad contract
Jose Contraeres…bad contract
Damon…bad contract
Farnsworth…bad contract
Abreu…Philly couldnt wait to get rid of him
lots more but I am tired of writing…LOTS MORE…who can you add???
Charlie Manuel is not getting rewarded for doing what Joe Torre did this year.
Did the Yankees win the division? No. The Phillies did.
Did the Yankees overcome their big deficit to overtake the first place team? No. The Phillies did.
The Phillies made the playoffs for the first time in years.
The Phillies are rewarding Manuel for doing something their team hasn’t done in years.
The two situations are not remotely similar.
Love Joe. No one else would have been patient enough to let his players fight their way out of the dismal start. After 3 straight first round flameouts however, & 3 & 14 in last 17 playoff games maybe a change is in order. Can’t fire all the players who have underperformed, perhaps a more intense Joe Girardi will provide a needed spark. Very knowledeable, & a Yankee, but I could live with Joe for another Year as well.
Phillips/Doug M. at First is more than adequate with the rest of our potent lineup. Don’t underestimate value of a first base glove especially with A-Rod & Jeter’s errant throws.
Nothing would be smarter for A-Rod than ignoring Boras & signing an extention for perhaps slightly less than he could get via hiring out again via free-agency, thus allowing Yankees to use that Texas $ for 3 more years to strengthen our bullpen. He finally won over teammates & fans on the biggest stage & market & can further enhance his image by NOT going for the BUCKS. How much more does he really need? He doesn’t need it for EGO purposes as he finally is acknowledge by everyone as the best in the game. For legacy purposes NOTHING would beat staying in NY, winning a WS & having a BIG post-season at long last, the gaping hole in his resume.
Finally, I fully trust Ian & Hughes to be solid starters for a long time, & possible some of those young guys we haven’t seen yet to help out, so PLEASE keep Joba as SET/UP occasional/eventual closer. He can help us win so many more games there, & maintain the tradition of our best formula for success from years ago.
A downward trend is a when something happens consistently.
The only thing happening consistently under Torre’s leadership is the Yankees making the playoffs. In fact for 12 staight years they’ve made the post-season, the best streak for any manager in Yankees HISTORY.
I’m not living in the past. I stating the record of the Yankees manager now. He’s career as Yankees manager should be judged as a whole and not selectively over the last few years.
The problem with some Yankee fans is that they think the Yankees should win all the time and that other teams are just fodder for the Yankees. That’s just not true.
Cleveland may not be a juggernaut, but they had 96 wins, the most in baseball, so I would venture a guess that they did something right this year.
Against the Yankees, they got timely hits and pitched brilliantly. You have to give them some credit. They played better and they won.
Change, for the sake of change, is unwise.
I don’t really see anyway the Twins trade Santana within the AL. Unless we decide to part with at least Joba, Melky, and a prospect or two, the Mets and Dodgers can easily match anything we offer.
Cano should be left out of any trade considerations. He is very good now and his upside is tremendous.
SJ44 is correct. We can go back and forth all winter as to what Joe does or does,’t do well. 12 seasons was unheard of before Torre. Should he be allowed to manage as long as he pleases? If not now, when?
I hope the change is made quickly. Joe’s legacy is secure despite the recent dissapointment.
Thanks to No More Torre for the reminders of success in the 80’s. I have blasted Steinbrenner for his actions from that period while sometimes forgetting that they were very competitive. Kudos for the Guidry mention. People talk about their concern for Donnie’s Yankee legacy being tied to success or failure as a coach/manager. How about Gator?
Do the fans realize that Gator is the best “true” Yankee pitcher since Whitey Ford?
The eighties had plenty of good music. American post punk anyone? Huskur Du, MOB, Minutemen, Replacements, etc.
No more trades. Unless it is FOR our overpriced “talent” for their prospects. Santana? What? Why? He’ll be 30 by the time the season starts. And oh wait a minute, he’ll have a huge extension by then. And we all know how great guys play after getting that.
I have to lol at myself, I forgot to mention the 1984 Yanks like everyone else in the A.L. East had to run into the buzzsaw that was the 1984 Detroit Tigers (104-58 including 35-5 in their first 40 games). The Yanks could’ve finished their 1980s single season best 103-59 and still missed the postseason, 103-59 1993 San Francisco style. Even if the Yanks finished tied that year, there would’ve been a one-game playoff to decide the division, 1978 Yankees vs. Red Sox style. My guess is prime Ron Guidry for the Yanks vs. prime Jack Morris for the Tigers -WOW!
Buck Showalter is living proof a new guy/ Yankees manager can turn things around. His first year managing the Yanks (1992) was basically him having to make due with what he had (e.g. Andy Stankiewicz at 1B, Charlie Hayes at 3B, Scott Kamienicki in the rotation), but the team did win the more games than any of the previous three teams. It was the best of the bad 1989-92 teams. The ‘92 team finished 76-86 -ehhh but they turned a corner. The 1993 team won 88 games. The 1994 team was on its way to the team’s first division title or at least a wildcard if they faltered since 1981. Did ANYONE think Showalter could come in and turn it around and he did. He played Paul O’Neill every day i.e. gave Paul that chance as Lou Pinella didn’t want to when Paul was on the Reds (yes I know Gene Michael traded Roberto Kelly for Paul but Showalter could’ve played Paul as much as or less than Pinella did). He probably had a hand in demoting Bernie back to AAA when Bernie was struggling but Bernie was better for it -I’ve read Bernie say the demotion was for the best. Buck at least tried Mo in the 1995 postseason and Mo was much more of an unknown quantity than Joba despite being a starter who the Yanks got a good long look at in ‘95. The Yanks didn’t think to have Mo pitch in relief and in a high-pressure situation until Buck tried it. No, Buck didn’t make Mo the closer, but he did light the first spark of the fireball known as Mo
You have to give Buck credit for that.
First base defense is not THAT important. I don’t want to shove someone with no expierence like Matsui out there, or a complete butcher like Giambi, but the idea that we need an elite fielding FIRST BASEMAN is completely ridiculous.
saucy, usually a trade like that would not be final until a 2 or 3 day window to allow negotiations for an extension…
“No more trades. Unless it is FOR our overpriced “talentâ€? for their prospects. Santana? What? Why? He’ll be 30 by the time the season starts. And oh wait a minute, he’ll have a huge extension by then. And we all know how great guys play after getting that.”
Santana will be 29 next season is among the top 2 or 3 pitchers in all of baseball. It’s not like people are suggesting trading for Carl Pavano.
Bosco: I wasn’t saying we needed someone with a 1.000 fielding percentage. I just didn’t want to say get rid of all prospective first basemen because we have Matsui. It just doesn’t seem logical. I also groan if I ever see Giambi in the line up at first base.
Mientkiewicz also makes Alex happy, and we see what making Alex happy in NY does.
i love how everyone says that it comes down to the fact that Torre can handles egos in the NY clubhouse. But one of the reasons he will not be brought back is because Steinbrenner feels he is to popular. Big Stien’s EGO has been bruised by Torre
SJ,
The Yankees finished with a better record than the Phillies, after starting in a deeper hole. Additionally, the Mets collapsed and Boston did not.
I frequently agree with your viewpoints, but can not see how you can argue the similarities between these two teams and managers this year while keeping a straight face.
“Did the Yankees overcome their big deficit to overtake the first place team? No. The Phillies did.”
Did the Phillies win it or the Mets lose it. The Mets not being able to win 2 of their last 7 games is how the Phillies won. If Boston has lost 5 of their last 7 games, the Yankees would have won.
Santana-not so good the second half of last season. Not “Santana” worthy. We have been burned time and time again with those deals.
Did the Phillies comeback from a 21-29 record to make the playoffs for the 12th straight year? No the Yankees did.
Did the Yankees comeback from 14 1/2 games out of first place to make the playoff for the 12th straight year? No the Yankees did.
“People who are complaining about Jeter must be yearning for the days of Spike Owen, Mike Gallego, and Tony Fernandez. Who? Exactly.. (their offensive numbers are just HORRENDOUS). I think Jeter’s defense is sub-par and will be more so with every passing season but we could do a LOT worse at SS.”
I don’t disagree with any of this, but Tony Fernandez was a very good and very underrated player.
Andrea I’m saying Because he hasn’t performed Here in postseason, with the Yankees,he doesn’t get to break the bank.imo,your entitled to yours by all means.
look at the defense:
first base (Giambi is one of the worst in baseball)
2nd Base (Cano is one of the worst in baseball)
SS (Good but limited range)
3rd (Good)
LF (avg with no arm)
Center (Good)
RF (Iron glove good arm)
Catcher (below avg backstop…good arm)
Why are the teams left in the playoffs all good defensive teams…is that by LUCK????
Shut up with the “downward trend” SJ. You’re really making yourself ignorant. By calling what happened this season a “trend” I guess the trend is Joe Torre coached teams start the season with 4/5ths of the rotation in shambles and 12 rookies expected to start in a season.
This trend has jack to do with Torre. This trend is the composition of the team. Not Torre’s managing and you are being myopic in your “analysis”.
They started this season with Pavano, Igawa and Mussina as their 3,4,5 which was disasterous. They started the season with no 8th inning lockdown setup man. Viz never was that. Even you all season when he was pitching well called Viz not a true 8th inning man. His failures are part fatigue and part talent. But what players aren’t somewhat fatigued at this point in the season? Not to mention the team gave him a ton of rest down the stretch and he didn’t suddenly morph into Jeff Nelson.
Your trend is a crock. Your downward trend is based on diminshing skill in Mussina, Clemens. Does your trend take into account that Cano, Abreu, Matsui, Damon all took the first 2 months of the season off? That’s Torre’s fault? Tell me how. And if you tell me another manager would have scared those 4 into hitting you are nuts.
Does your trend include that Giambi once again got injured? Does your trend include that Arod and Posada has career years?
You sound like one of those Red Sox metrics idiots when you mention “trends”.
The Yankees lost in the playoffs for the same reason they keep losing in the playoffs. They didn’t get the starting pitching from their starters we all expected and the bullpen outside of Mo and Joba (or Mo & Gordon in the recent past) was not reliable enough to depend on in huge situations. Wang lost this series for the Yankees. Jeter and his garbage at bats lost this series for the Yankees.
Joe Torre did not. He did everything he could outside of making Joba a starter to win this series. Wang let this team down and send them home. Jeter killed the rally on Monday in the 6th that most likely was going ro get us the lead. Joe Torre didn’t kill that rally.
You’re just spouting and calling what happened this season a trend without discussing the composition of the team and the glaring lack of a true ace outside of Pettite in the rotation and the fact that we had a 2 man bullpen is just ignorant.
Hitting is harder in the post season. Most great hitters struggle to his .300 in the playoffs.
The post season is about pitching and Cashman built the rotation and the pen. He realized his error and tried to adjust on the fly. It was good enough to capture the wild card, but it wasn’t good enough to win in the playoffs.
You want to tell us Joe Torre made that happen, fine. But I’m as astute a fan as you are pal and I know that Torre isn’t the reason this season went downhill in the post season. It’s the pitching and the lack of clutch from Mr. November. That’s your downward trend right there.
Its not change for change sake. They are 4-13 in their last 17 post-season games AND for the first time in the HISTORY of the franchise, they have lost 4 straight post-season series. That real. That’s not fantasy.
How is not that not relevent? That isn’t “change for change sake”. Its making a change because something CLEARLY isn’t working.
Its not about being “spoiled Yankee fans”. Its about seeing a team that is now unable to get out of the first round of the playoffs and is trending downward whether you want to believe it or not.
Sorry but, that’s not worth 8 million dollars a year to manage this, or any other, team. It just isn’t.
Besides, Santana sounds a lot like Satan. Do you really want that kind of bad mojo around the organization?
“Santana-not so good the second half of last season. Not “Santanaâ€? worthy. We have been burned time and time again with those deals.”
His numbers were only not so good if you look at the non-predictive ones like ERA. His peripherals in the second half were very close to his career averages.
who can convince jeter to move to LF?
Why call it a trend…most of the players will be gone next year….and you can call that whatever you want
Whoa ron hall, back away from the ledge.
So, Torre is only responsible for the wins. He has no responsibility for the losses. Ok.
Thankfully, the Yankees feel differently and, by the end of the week, there will be a change.
“look at the defense:
first base (Giambi is one of the worst in baseball)
2nd Base (Cano is one of the worst in baseball)
SS (Good but limited range)
3rd (Good)
LF (avg with no arm)
Center (Good)
RF (Iron glove good arm)
Catcher (below avg backstop…good arm)
Why are the teams left in the playoffs all good defensive teams…is that by LUCK????”
Cano was one of the best second basemen in baseball according to the advanced fielding metrics. He has outstanding range. We are only defensive at SS.
Jeter move to left field? Way to selfish for that. And I like the guy.
That should say we are only really poor defensively at SS.
Being eliminated in the playoffs really causes some people to go crazy. I mean, we lost 3 freaking games. Relax guys. If we bring back the big 3 FAs we’ll be better than OK for next year, no matter who the manager is.
Andrea:
Giambi was/ is/ always will be way more an offensive guy than a defensive guy, I bet you didn’t mind him 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, going into 2004 after a solid 2003, and going into 2007 after a solid 2006.
The Yanks have no choice to move Matsui to 1B with LF and DH taken. If not Matsui, then Damon? Then you risk two downgrades in the field: Matsui LF, Damon 1B. Matsui will have to learn 1B on the job, that’s it. If Abreu was brought back, (Abreu) certainly couldn’t move to 1B, he can’t even play RF the easiest OF position. I’d love Don Mattingly to teach Matsui -what better teacher is there? If it doesn’t work out, then Matsui or Damon has to go like Sheffield had to go, but Damon’s not going anywhere and why should he?
Cuz Matsui can’t or won’t learn 1B and be decent there? I’m not looking for prime J.T. Snow. Who says Mientkiewicz can’t be re-signed to be Matsui’s backup and get a start here and there so Damon can rest and/or not face a tough lefty/ guy who owns him (Mientkiewicz 1B & Matsui LF in those games)?
‘Bottom line is Matsui BURIES Mientkiewicz offensively, and sometimes you have to sacrifice defense for offense.
On other thing re: the Manuel-Torre comparisions.
Charlie Manuel isn’t making almost 8 million dollars a year to manage the Phillies.
If the two have similar seasons, then pay them similar money.
8 million bucks is a lot of money to pay a manager. With that, comes high expectations. If some of you think its unfair, that’s the way it goes.
Torre will get a chance to manage elsewhere.
Its been a great marriage for both sides. However, let’s be honest. Prior to his arrival in NY, Joe Torre’s career record was 100 games UNDER .500 as a manager. The Yankees have a little to do with his success. He didn’t succeed like this all on his own.
Some of you want to obsolve Torre of all blame when things go wrong and go overboard with credit when discussing the 4 rings.
I tend to look at the overall picture and, in my view, its time for a change. That’s it.
I don’t hate the guy. I am immensely appreciative for all the good work he has done in NY but, I feel its time to move on without him.
Cano is terrible at 2nd base. My sister can out throw Damon…he was a bad signing from the start…we did it to stop the Red Sox from keeping him…they are the ones going to the World Series. THe Phills could not wait to unload Abreu…they needed a stupid team to hook up on his stupid contract…Giambi (I just really need to mention his name…his defense batting avg and home runs say the rest).
Sorry for all the type-o’s, but I’m sick of hearing about this “downward trend” being related to Torre. It’s a myth.
the team needs a change. A fresh voice. Sorry but he needs to go. Sometimes things just get stagnant when there’s no major change. He’s already far exceeded the average timespan for a manager but this isn’t a lifetime position like he wants.
For what it’s worth, Torre’s mistakes with the bullpen cost us key games in the 2004 ALCS and 2003 World Series. Essentially costing us two more rings.
let it go sj, we REALIZE that you want Torre gone. Stop trying to convince everyone on this site about that. Have you stopped to think that people have emotional attachments to this team, to this era. Yes, you can tell us all you want about 4-13, but alot of us grew up under torre. We remember the painful years of the 90’s, we remember when yankee stadium pulled in 14,000 fans, if that. We remember jesse barfield throwing a ball to the streets in the early 90’s. Torre brought a new era to yankee fans. Yes, bernie, paul, jeter, tino, marino and others helped, but only 2 remain from those teams. Stop calling for Torre’s head. He might not mean that much to you, but for others on this board, he means more than a 4-13 record. We saw him fight cancer, we saw him handle the boss, the media, the players and we saw him win 4 championships and give us a shot each year. So please, let go of this.
You know, most likely the team wont revert to those 90’s teams, but still, it will hurt when we look into the dugout and not see torre.
There is no right or wrong way to go here. There are very good arguments on either side, to ask Joe Torre to return or to go in a new direction with a new manager.
I like Joe Torre; I like his style and his class and the professionalism he brought to the Yankee clubhouse. I like that most of the men who’ve played for him respect him. I don’t know how many managers could have gotten players like Giambi and Damon to buy into their reduced roles at various points in the season — meaning, though they personally did not like it, they accepted their roles without bitterly griping to the media or anyone else who would listen. Joe Torre built a real team this year.
I’m not sure I agree there’s been a “downward trend.” Getting to the playoffs every year is an accomplishment. The particular number of wins each year isn’t all that relevant, but it is notable that this is the first year they did not win the division in, what, 9 years and still they came awfully close and were tied for the second-best record in the AL. Those early season injuries can’t be discounted and you can’t discount how well they came back from the lousy start. And you can’t say Joe Torre caused the injuries and you can’t say, when the players are saying differently, that Torre’s management style had nothing to do with that comeback.
As to why they haven’t won in the post-season, I think on the one hand, it’s simple – their pitching has not been good enough; and on the other hand, it’s very enigmatic — why does this powerful offense shut down in the ALDS? And if anyone has an answer for that, s/he’s a genius.
Winning or losing is a team thing. Both the manager and his players are responsible on either side of the coin. You give credit where credit is due and blame where it’s justified, but there’s enough to go around both ways.
As far as not re-hiring Joe Torre, now is as good a time as any, I suppose. There will never be a perfect time. Whether he chooses to leave or they choose to not ask him back, it’s no different from the practical standpoint of who replaces him. The players will accept their next manager because what choice do they have? Unless it’s Tony LaRussa — then I see a riot! Just kidding. I think.
are you hearinig the Boras wants a ten year 300mil contract for AROD that takes him to 42 years old…assuming he will be productive for 5-6 more years…what a waste. Will anyone be stupid enough to do that?
Hey Bosco — I didn’t know you were on the list to get a ring!
Kind of obvious Ron Hall is a troll, people.
Look at the comment, “Philly could not wait to get rid of Philly”….Ugh….I guess you forgot 2006 when he was a BIG part of us winning the division….2007 was so bad the Yankees are seriously considering picking up his $15-16m option…..yup, go back to Boston, troll.
Mariano leave? Why? B/C Torre gets fired and he can’t play for him. Except that makes 0 sense. Guess what? He is not going to play for Torre on any other team. Think about it, junior. If Torre goes, the Yankees will give him some advisor role. See Clyde King, Dick Williams, Yogi Berra, Reggie Jackson, Doc Gooden. Probably Billy.
“Boston win the WS”…Yup,it’s pretty obvious where your loyalty lies. The same Boston that got swept in Round 1 of 2005 and did not even make the playoffs in 2006. Let’s not get too carried away b/c you beat the Angels.
Here is how the Yankees fielding rates using THT/BIS data:
Mientkiewicz +12.2 runs
Cano +4.6
A-Rod -5.8
Jeter -27.9
Damon (LF) +9.7
Damon (CF) +3.2
Matsui -1.8
Melky -11.6
Abreu -18.8
http://spreadsheets.google.com.....&gid=0
SJ44,
How can you kill Torre now for using Vizcaino? You yourself must have literally dozens and dozens of posts over the susmmer defending Torre’s use of the pen because besides Mo and Viz there were no viable options.
When others pointed out Viz being used too much you chastised them saying that they didn’t understand baseball because if they did they would understand there was no one other than Viz to use.
You literally went on and on and on about this over the summer but suddenly when it suits your rhetorical purposes its a problem?
This seems as convenient as you forgetting how vehemently you were demanding the Yankees dump Cano. You wanted him traded, sent to the minors, and on and on. Bringing up Viz is ironic because you also screamed for DFA’ing Vizcaino at the beginning of the season and on and on.
You try to have it both ways over and over – and either side of the argument you take you insult people who don’t agree with you by some how saying they are stupid or just don’t understand.
Big words from someone who wanted to trade Cano. Astute baseball mind there.
Actually, mathematically speaking and statistically speaking, for a trend to present, there needs to be concrete evidence based on consistent data.
Trending the performance of the Yankees post season success is not valid because the “data” is changed each year and is not replaced by equal “data”.
SJ44, you should know better than that… your trend perspective is like comparing the 1998 Yankees to the teams with Dimaggio or Maris and Mantle. It cannot be done because the variables are not equal.
Trending the Yankees post season performance is like hearing that “there is significant progress in Iraq and casualties are down”. Numbers don’t lie but they can be manipulated to tell any story that anyone wants.
Not only is ron a troll, he is a troll that does not know the team. Blame Cash for these deals? Except that’s not the truth.
Giambi…George
Pavano…bad contract….wrong, terrible contract.
Clemens…George
Randy Johnson…George / Randy Levine
Jose Contraeres…spelled wrong….George told Newman and
Blaklely get him or don’t bother coming back home
Damon…bad contract? Nobody complained last year, dope.
Farnsworth…bad contract…Agreed.
Abreu…Philly couldnt wait to get rid of him….See previous post
Sorry Ed, hate the Red Sox. Tell me..what part of what I said is wrong…Everyone wants to blame Torre but it is Cashman/and or whomever called the shots to make the bad deals. And yes ED…Philly could not wait to get rid of Abreu…and after getting rid of him…they made the playoffs and their record improved. The real Yankees (Jeter, Posada, Petitte, Mariano, etc…) Should stay a play with the new guys coming up…get rid of the dead wood…
WHat have Abreu, AROD, Giambi, etc… ever won???
Doreen,
every year I have to soothe my friends in St loius hands, after another year of Larussa. The fan have utter loathing
for him.You never here anything good ,ever When they won last year,they were hoping he’d not come back. This year they hope the Yankees take him.Scary!
The only mistakes I can think of that Torre made in this series are not putting Hughes in for Wang when it was clear he was done in Game 1, not having Mo ready in the 8th of Game 2, and not putting Giambi at 1B in Game 4 after Wang came out. He didn’t cost us this series, but I think it probably is time for a change.
EdWhitson….
Nice call on the troll….Ever notice trolls are like Gremlins, give them water and they multiply rapidly…scary.
WHat have Abreu, AROD, Giambi, etc… ever won???
what has mattingly won?
So, we can discount the comeback this year – best team in baseball since the All Star break, after being decimated by injuries (pitchers breaking bones on the mound?) – because Torre single-handedly lost the ALDS? Saying that the Phillies comeback was more impressive, when the Mets couldn’t win a game out of 7 at home to end the season and the Red Sox kept winning? Is this Bizzaro World?
WFAN just said Mariano has spoken at the stadium and said he will listen to others teams offers. Also as expected said he wants Torre back.
Two things I definitely do blame Torre for this series are not playing Duncan in game 1 (and the rest of the series for that matter) and leaving Wang in for the fifth inning during game one when it was clear he didnt have his stuff. not the only reason we lost the series but definitely didn’t help. The loyalty to Matsui and Giambi during this series hurt the team. Such loyalites need to go, the best player needs to play, not the name or the one with the biggest contract.
Mattingly was a winner…did not have the talent around him. Can you say that about the others
People actually think the Abreu for nothing deal was a bad move?
ron hall
October 10th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
Sorry Ed, hate the Red Sox. Tell me..what part of what I said is wrong…Everyone wants to blame Torre but it is Cashman/and or whomever called the shots to make the bad deals. And yes ED…Philly could not wait to get rid of Abreu…and after getting rid of him…they made the playoffs and their record improved. The real Yankees (Jeter, Posada, Petitte, Mariano, etc…) Should stay a play with the new guys coming up…get rid of the dead wood…
WHat have Abreu, AROD, Giambi, etc… ever won???
So Philly won because they got rid of Abreu? Nothing to do with the total collapse of the Mets or Jimmy Rollins or Pat Burrell getting hot in the second half? Interesting. Becasue the Yankees had a better record when Abreu was in the line up and hitting than when he wasn’t.
Giambi, sure he has never won anything, but that is because his teams were eliminated by a better Yankee team. Memory serves, he killed the Yankees when they played.
Your point may be going in the right direction but your logic an supporting data is flawed.
“WFAN just said Mariano has spoken at the stadium and said he will listen to others teams offers. Also as expected said he wants Torre back.”
Not new news.
THe Phillies spent themselves just getting to the playoffs…the Yanks had the playoffs made and they were better off coming in second because the Indians were an easier matchup (or so it seemed) than the Angles
did not say the phills won because they got rid of Abreu…said they improved when they got rid or him last year (yes…they almost made the playoffs after a big run in 2006 after the trade)
I really believe Cleveland has a strong chance of beating the Sox.
so jeter, bernie and the rest of them were not surronded by talent?
a CLeveland vs Arizona world series could be the most boring pitchers dual series of all time and would draw about 200 viewers a night.
yes…those guys were surrounded by talent…and they won…these guys are surrounded by talent and they lose.
Great article by Rick Carpiniello. Steinbrenner gets no pass. The Yankees have been successful recently despite the meddling (the examples are numerous, but we’ll start with Jaret Wright, Gary Sheffield and Randy Johnson). It would be a disaster to have George more involved than he already is.
The goal should be to get to the Tournament. After that, it’s a crapshoot. Anyone who denies that is a fool.
Mission accomplished, 12 for 12.
All you BTBs (Bring Torre Backs) make me laugh.
The Yanks are embarassed in the first round once again and for the third straight season, fourth time in six years (an average of 2 out of every 3 years) with two brutal World Series losses and the biggest choke in professional sports history thrown in, and you want to reward their manager for all those teams with a new contract? You are the real idiots.
1996, 1998, 1999, and 2000 are over! Next year will be ten years since the 1998 team, 9 since the 1999 team, 8 since the 2000 team, 12 since the 1996 team. It’s reached the point where I’m happy if the Yanks just make the friggin’ A.L.C.S. but ef that, I’d be pumped to see them do that then go all the way with Tony LaRussa and once and for all dispel the myth that Torre was a great manager.
All Torre was was a three-times-fired retread lucky to be wanted by Steinbrenner and lucky that Steinbrenner overrode EVERYONE in the Yankees organization screaming “NO!” to hiring Torre. Us so-called “Torre bashers” didn’t nickname him “Clueless Joe”, some writer or headline writer did. B.t.w. Torre was calling games for the then California Angels before Steinbrenner gave him a call then made him.
Duncan hadn’t played regularly and his contributions after his initial splash were spotty. Plus he was hurting – he is probably having surgery on that hernia condition. Sometimes you go with the veterans who have proven over time that they can come through even when they’re not at their best. Matsui certainly falls into that category and certainly deserved the start as a DH. I don’t think they lost this series because of that decision.
They lost because Wang did not pitch well twice; and the offense could not get that one timely hit, especially in games 1 and 2. By the time the last 2 runs (5 and 6) were scored against them in game 4, it was just too late.
I thought it was interesting what Kevin Long said about 2 at-bats in game 4, however. The one being Jeter hitting into the rally-killing DP, the other being Peralta’s two out lucky bloob single. Jeter had a good at bat and hit the ball hard and did not get a good result. Peralta flailed at a good pitch and just managed to get it to bloop over Cano’s head. Sometimes the better at bat doesn’t get the best result, and unfortunately, that’s baseball.
Santana couldn`t beat Cleveland this year.
No More Torre –
And why can’t you be happy with “just reach the ALCS?” I’m happy they reached the ALDS this season, given the entirety of the season. Do I wish they won? Absolutely. Would I be ecstatic for them to win a World Series? Absolutely. But when will people realize that the playoffs are not a NY birthright? That if you don’t win in the regular season, you don’t even get to the playoffs? That only 8 teams make it to the playoffs at all. That only 1 team can win the WS each year? That most of the time, it’s a new bunch of teams in the playoffs with the exception of NY, who’s been there 13 times in a row, 12 under Torre. And finally, that most of the time, the other 7 teams in the playoffs must have done something right to get there?
That’s my rant. Sorry. But I get tired of the spoiled attitude that comes out sometimes.
You know what else? Santana does not do all that well at Fenway.
Santana is the best pitcher in baseball…but if moose starts game 4 the outcome is very differant
To win in the playoffs it`s better to have the Home field edge.
Do u really think Jeter would say ”no” to the idea of playing in the outfield??
Bob,
are you saying that (not knowing what you know now) you thought CLeveland had a chance against the Yankees after an 0 for 6 regular season…and you would have rather have been home against the Angles (who seem to always beat the Yanks)?
Doreen, you forgot to mention ,we were the only team in postseason from last year,consdeing our really bad start.
“a CLeveland vs Arizona world series could be the most boring pitchers dual series of all time and would draw about 200 viewers a night.”
yeah, lets route for boston this ALCS so the WS has more interesting pitching to watch[/sarcasm]
dude, you are such a troll, just quit already…
THe joke is on MLB..they could have had NY, LA, CHicago, PHilly instead they have the Red Sox and 3 mini cities.
Catya -
Yes, even without considering their really poor start.
Saucy,
you should likely look the work sarcasm up in the dictionary…you don’t know what it means.
B.t.w. what tactical moves did Torre make in the 1996, 1998, 1999, and 2000 World Series which directly won them games?
I can name five moves he made which lost postseason series including two World Series:
Game 7 2001 World Series: Brought in Mo an inning too early when he should’ve brought in Mendoza.
Game 3 2003 World Series: Brought in Jeff Weaver to hold a tie in extra innings at the away ballpark. Talk about ringing the dinner bell.
Game 5 2003 World Series: Started David Wells without being 110% sure Wells was good to go. He had Zimmer, Stottlemyre, and trainer Monahan (who should’ve been fired after that series) as extra sets of eyes. None of them could test Wells to see if he could pitch.
Game 7 2004 A.L.C.S: Starts Kevin Brown then brings in Javier Vasquez.
Game 4 2006 A.L.D.S: Bats A-Rod 8th, embarassing A-Rod and all but putting up the white flag of surrender before the absolute final elimination game (Game 5).
This year? He starts Wang then Pettitte in Cleveland, not Pettitte then Hughes. It should’ve been Pettitte/ Hughes/ Wang/ Clemens/ Pettitte & all hands on deck save Clemens in Cleveland Game 5. Wang and Clemens pitch at Yankee Stadium. Hughes pitches in Cleveland away from the pressure of performing in front of the home crowd as who wants to fail in front of them? An opposing crowd is better cuz you expect boos there. Mussina could’ve been on standby in case Hughes got in trouble.
THe joke is on MLB..they could have had NY, LA, CHicago, PHilly instead they have the Red Sox and 3 mini cities.
Only inciteful thing youve said all day
Doreen
First off don’t put words in my mouth. I never said the Yanks in the postseason was a birthright or more specifically my birthright, but you know what? Yes, I expect this team for all the talent and money spent on it to execute the little things like move baserunners over, drive in men on 3B with
_This year? He starts Wang then Pettitte in Cleveland, not Pettitte then Hughes. It should’ve been Pettitte/ Hughes/ Wang/ Clemens/ Pettitte & all hands on deck save Clemens in Cleveland Game 5. Wang and Clemens pitch at Yankee Stadium. Hughes pitches in Cleveland away from the pressure of performing in front of the home crowd as who wants to fail in front of them? An opposing crowd is better cuz you expect boos there. Mussina could’ve been on standby in case Hughes got in trouble._
Hmmm…
Pitcher A
4.46 ERA, 5W, 3L, 72IP, 39R, 36ER, 8 HR, 29BB, 58SO, 1.28 WHIP
Pitcher B
3.70 ERA, 19W, 7L, 199.1IP, 84R, 82ER, 9HR, 59BB, 104SO 1.29 WHIP
Who starts game one of your LDS?
So you start a rookie with a 5-3 record and a 4.46 era versus a 19 game winner with a 3.70 ERA. How does life look with those hindsight 20-20 glasses of yours?