N.Y. stands for Nothing Yet
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Oct 17, 2007 
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The Yankees have done something I didn’t think was possible.
They’ve become boring.
On the tedious meter, they’ve hit 11. It has now been nine days since the season ended and they still can’t make a decision about the manager. Pamela Anderson has had shorter marriages.
“We’re in a position right now, we’re having a dialogue with all relevant parties,” Brian Cashman said. “All I can tell you is when we come to a decision and a conclusion, then we’ll share it with you. Other than that, as long as it takes, as long as we have the Yankee interest in heart and what’s best for us as we go forward, that’s the right call, whatever it’s going to be.”
That’s fine. They certainly have every right to take as long as they want. If Joe Torre doesn’t like it, I suppose he can quit. He won’t, of course.
In the meantime, it’s a snoozefest.
For the record, it sounds like they have not shut the door on Torre. As to how long it will take to reach a conclusion, I have no idea.
First! Anyway, I really think we should give Torre a two year extension. After all, under his helm, we have made the playoffs 12 straight times.
The Yanks could have made Torre an offer for all we know. It’s not just up to the Yanks, Torre has to decide if he wants to come back, and if the offer is good enough. Maybe it even has something to do with the coaches, like who returns and who doesn’t.
I hope that cooler heads will prevail and that ownership is cognizant of the fact that they have a good thing going right now. The Bronx Zoo was colorful and fun and a defining part of my childhood – but this is a family and a winning one at that.
Those Bronx Zoo days barely drew half the attendance of the past 4 years – (yes the A-Rod years) there’s a lot of money to be made if they use good judgement. And also consider that Atlanta was going around puffing themselves up as “America’s Team” in 1999 with a lot less to brag about. I am grateful for this run and have enjoyed every minute of it. Like all boom times it is generally better to land gracefully than crash.
I bet Torre knows one way or the other. I doubt they would leave him out to dry this long. If they did shame on them.
How clever, though, they’ve defused our outrage and indignation through boredom.
All I can say is this. Play brinksmanship all you want with Scott Boras. But Cashman manages to fumble the negotiations and A-Rod departs for Boston or the Mets, the jackals will have his head next. And it will be deserved.
With an aging Matsui, a geriatric Giambi, and No A-Rod, the Yankees have a very mediocre lineup. The free agent class is bare, and the Yankees’ best minor league position players are years away from ripening.
No A-Rod, No Offense, No post-season. Should that come to pass the guillotine will spare no one.
The Yankees won 4 World Series without Alex. Do the Rockies have an A-Rod, do the Indians have an A-Rod. Bottom line is PITCHING WINS.
Sounds like there are some negotiations going on – Joe, Donnie, Guidry, Eiland…Possibly the Steinbrenners want to announce everything as a package. That would take time. And then, going forward, deal with the players.
I can wait.
Don -
I think you’re right – especially if you look at what Cashman said: “We’re in a position right now, we’re having a dialogue with all relevant parties. All I can tell you is when we come to a decision and a conclusion.”
Maybe I’m reading it wrong, but Joe Torre and Don Mattingly may be ‘relevant parties’.
The Yankees can choose to bring Joe back under certain conditions, and Joe CAN say “no” – or there can be negotiations between Joe and the Yankees regarding those conditions.
I could be overweighting the words “a decision and a conclusion” – but it would be idiotic to announce to the press “hey guys, we decided to bring Joe back if he accepts Dave Eiland as pitching coach and agrees to step down after two years” (Just an example – I don’t know anything other than what I’ve read here)
Another interesting point raised by several people – could Cashman be flying back to NY to talk to Joe in person?
In that case, you could imagine Joe and Cashman meeting in the AM, and we could have Joe back by (say) 6 PM
OR… Joe says “no”, and Cashman contacts Mattingly or Girardi.
There have to be some contingencies plans:
- Do we offer the job to Joe or not?
- Do we promise Mattingly the job in ___ years?
- If we ask Joe, and Joe says “no”, what do we do?
I’d also bet the Yankees spent a lot of time discussing contingencies concerning 3rd base (if ARod opts out), and what to do about Abreu’s option.
That “should” end any speculation that the Yankees have disrespected Torre. The days of kicking people to the curb without giving them the heads-up has ended. They can’t do anything until the negotations are finished with whoever. As I have said ad nauseum, they are probably updating Torre about everything that is happening.
Peter;
are you in Tampa now? If not, you need to go down there right away and settle this thing….or head to the Dollhouse. Your choice.
Or Bern’s.
A. Phil –
Please don’t start that “First” business here. Go to perezhilton if you want to play that kind of game.
MJL
October 17th, 2007 at 7:38 pm
A. Phil –
Please don’t start that “First� business here. Go to perezhilton if you want to play that kind of game.
Here Here!
I was just in the middle of proposing suspension for anyone who does this. I know I shouldn’t let such immaturity get to me..but..but..I can’t help it! Even Sully does’t bother me that much:/
You know, it is the pre-offseason right? It’s a behind-the-scenes, figuring-stuff-out time. You can’t expect the Yankees to feed the media with stories constantly when they’re handling internal strategy.
Ok I think it’s obvious what we got here, the Yankees are working on a Torre extension but are strangely and impressively not allowing the negotiations play out in the media. Somehow all the media leaks have been closed, that is the real story here.
It’s either that or a mass media conspiracy not to write the story that the Yankees are negotiating with Joe. We all know that couldn’t happen.
“The Yankees won 4 World Series without Alex. Do the Rockies have an A-Rod, do the Indians have an A-Rod. Bottom line is PITCHING WINS.”
uhhh, yes. the Rockies have Holliday, Hawpe, and Helton and the Indians have Sizemore, Hafner, and Martinez.
the Yankees are in a position to have BOTH great hitters and great pitching.
they can afford both. why wouldn’t they want great offense and pitching?
also, i don’t understand this notion that the yankees are supposed to be entertaining during the off-season.
they’re boring? so what?
Detroit news station here reported that Guidry got pink-slipped. Did I miss it? Or did it not happen?
Hmm.. if Boston blows it tonight, should I revel in their loss? I already told myself this year if they win it all I don’t care, it still won’t have the impact of 2004. It’ll destroy the small amount of pity they get for taking 86 years to win and hopefully stop the whining like they’re a small market team a lot of fans have.
There’s a Post report on Guidry being “on the outs” nothing yet on whether he’s gone. Mazzone can suck it – he turned down the job 2 years ago and was so bad in Baltimore that he has been fired and will be paid his 3rd year salary to sit at home and rock back and forth in his kitchen.
Seriously, WTF is the rush? Who is harmed by one day more?
If they miss the playoffs next year and they quickly picked LaRussa (ugh!!!) are we going to be happy b/c they acted decisively?
Likewise if they make Joe T. twist for several days, do you think he will bring up the maggots on his lawn when he accepts the WS trophy?
It is a joke, a self-serving media-driven joke.
There is a transition between generations here with respect to the leadership of the franchise. So sorry if we can’t shoehorn that into the 24x7x366 media cycle for ESPN et al.
I’m surprised beat writers aren’t thankful for another day’s worth of story to write. It is like the white Bronco OJ chase.
Peace! – TK
The fact that Cashman would let a mere 21 million dollars over three years prevent us from attempting to resign the reigning MVP is absurd. I know there is a contigent here on LoHud that thinks that we have won 4 World Series without A-Rod and none with him but they dont understand that the AL isnt the same as it was back in 96-01. It is much harder to win the AL now that it was back then. We cant afford to lose that kind of offense especially with no easy way to replace it and no corresponding ability to prevent less runs. We will be the same team next as we were this year except without Alex and you can guarantee we will win a lot fewer games with just an average 3rd baseman replacing an MVP.
If Boston does lose tonight, it will be ironic that both NY and Boston got what they wanted going into the playoffs and both teams got bounced playing the “preferred” team.
The decision on Torre was always going to be an organizational one. George Steinbrenner was not in control of the team when he made those comments to a reporter who basically blindsided a frail old man. Once again, the NY media jumped the gun on this one.
To be upset that there has been no word from the Yankees on this matter is kinda silly since the media created the story in the first place.
Funny that when the tail wags the dog, the dog ends up chasing it’s tail.
I’m sure they will offer Torre an extension but there will probably be conditions attached. Probably a pay cut, secondly the understanding that he will step down after 2 years.
I’m also fairly certain, conditions of the deal will not be disclosed out of respect for Joe Torre.
So the ball will be in Joe’s court, once it’s all said and done.
I guarantee the Red Sox will not lose tonight.
2008 Yankees – The Yankees will be GREAT
There is NO WAY the SAWX lose tonight.
(ahem)
They don’t play.
There is one certainty. Joe Torre will not be pursuing either of the 2 managerial openings that exist.
Who can possibly see him managing in Kansas City or Pittsburgh where he’d never see more than $500K per year ? A far cry from the money he’s been getting in the Bronx.
Actually it is Cher (Greg Allman) and Michelle Phillips (Dennis Hopper) who had shorter marriages. Also Britney Spears.
Johathan you win they don’t play tonight!!!Friday
another laughable subject is Torre god forbid taking a pay cut from his $7 mill a yr. His salary is about twice as high as any other manager.. wow if Torre has to suck it up and take $5 mill a yr for 2 yrs. what an outrage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He is not worth $7 mill. People spend the Yankees money like drunken sailors and say moronic things…
if that is a outrageous act by the Yankee management sign me up for that type of treatment…
I only bet on sure things
I don’t understand. Are you suggesting that the Yankees should make rash decisions to make the media’s job easier?
I personally believe that this is an important decision, and management SHOULD take their time in making it.
Why do you assume the Yankees “can’t make a decision?”
They have likely made a decision and are now acting to finalize that decision (i.e. either renew Torre or sign Girardi or somebody else).
To come and say “We want Joe, now we are going to negotiate” is just plain stupid….that itself is not really an accomplishment. When the Yankees annouce something, it will likely be definitive, which takes time.
You could always do a story how how the players spend the off-season.
Bob Michaels is right: Pitching wins.
Here is my fearles prediction!!!
I am not a supporter of Joe Torre.
Still, given how the proceedings are going so far, I believe, Joe is back for two years and it is the final contract for him. He will get $5 mil guaranteed and another $2mil linked to winning ALCS and WS. This is face saving to Joe that his salary is not cut, but he has to earn it.
Once Joe is back, Mo and and Posada will be on hot seat. Their loyalty to Torre will be tested. Mo will be offered two years at$12 mil/year and Yanks will play hardball. Same with Posada probably with higher salary like $13mil. Even with these offers if they go somewhare else they will look like phonies.
Regarding A-Rod he will be offered 6 years extesnion at $28 mil per year. After lot of negotiaion it will be settled at $30 mil/year. Taking the $21 mil from Texas, the real average for Yanks for 9 years will be $26.6 mil. For A-rod it will be $29mil/year
Abrue’s option will be picked up.
Dear Pete,
While I’m impatient about the future of the Yankees, I understand that this is a crucial decision for the organization. If there’s one thing you can knock the Yankees for, it’s for not preparing this decision ahead of time.
We shouldn’t criticize them for taking their time to make the decision. Criticize them for not preparing.
“Bob Michaels is right: Pitching wins.”
except when it doesn’t.
BBFan-
I hope you are right – you have made sense all year (exceptional!)
The Yanks should be in position to make a series of annoucements tomorrow; Abreu, Pettitte, Torre, Mo, Posada, Molina.
I hope the reason they have been hesitating is that they have a bunch of ducks to get in a row. If that is wrong, just get the coach right and the free agents (except for A0Rod) will fall into place.
Peace
“The Yanks should be in position to make a series of annoucements tomorrow; Abreu, Pettitte, Torre, Mo, Posada, Molina. ”
they may announce something about Torre.
none of those other things will get announced anytime soon.
TKinDC:
I wouldn’t hold your breath to get all of those announcements tomorrow.
If they make even one solid announcement, I’d be surprised.
Hey Guys ,
Always check the previous threads ther are” stealth posters “that come out ,when you’ve moved forward.I was just back over there,it’s crazy.
is this going to be one of those blogs where people write “FIRST!”? Obnoxious. Really hope we’re not attracting that.
I’m as anxious as anyone to find out what’s gonna happen.
But if being “bored” for a while means they are actually thinking things thru with an extremely important decision in order to make the best possible move than so be it. Of course it could just be a room full of idiots tripping all over themselves for all we know.
But I think it’s mostly the media, no offense Pete it’s your job afterall, who are so outraged over the time it’s taken. If it takes a little longer to make sure they get it right, that’s actually a nice change for this organization.
And just to think , the Hot Stove Season is weeks from now…..Does anyone know when the GM meetings are ??? I’m guessing it has to be more than 10 days after the WS….I’m with Phil 27 , I really don’t expect too much any time soon…..
Does anyone really believe that the young trio of Hughes, Joba and IPK will each throw 175+ innings next year? They haven’t come anywhere close to these number of innings, all of which would be required to last the entire year. And 175 innings is a conservative number. If they keep these kids on a pitch or innings count so to speak, all this will do is burn out a bullpen. I’m worried that they risk some arm trouble if they get pushed to those limits. They are going to need at least one additional innings eater to go with Andy and CMW and two of the three young guns. Of course the option is to keep Joba in the pen as the heir apparent to Mo and keep Hughes and IPK in the rotation along with a FA pitcher or someone else they might get in a trade. (Mussina can be that swing man between spot starter and long relief).
So once the Tampa/NY commitee has finally come to a resolution on who will manage the 2008 club, IMO, they’ll need to address the manager and new pitching coach’s (Dave Eiland ???) pitching staff this off season once they decide on which FA they want back. That’s a lot of important decsions to make, so is it really a surprise that it is taking this long??? Not really!
This is unlikely but a part of me HOPE this is what’s happening:
Yanks made the offer to Joe yesterday about coming back, thinking they would announce it today and could move on to signing Mo and Jorge quickly. Meanwhile Joe has a change of heart about if he indeed wants to come back for another 2 years of lunatic abuse/constant public humiliation. Now it’s Joe’s turn to make the yankees brass wait and Joe drags it out for another 9 days to make them sweat a bit…
I know, Joe will never be that vindictive/unprofessional/stupid, and he’s not in any positon to do that, but I can only hope.
Dee, I don’t think Joe is in a position to make the Yankees sweat. If they do indeed offer him a deal (which they’ll do reluctantly if at all), I think the front office would be relieved if he said no.
After all, if they really did honestly, legitmately want him, he’d be signed by now.
Steve-
put yourself in the “WAY BACK” machine and see what IPK, Joba and Phil did 2 years ago.
Would you have predicted what they did last year?
I agree we aren’t going to get a ChiSox like 8 innings per start performance, but look at this post-season-every team is relying on middle relief.
I’d rather see IPK struggle through 6 than see Moose get drummed out in the 2nd 3 starts in a row.
Stephen,
Yeah I agree, Joe’s definitely not in any position at all to make demands or hold out on management. That’s just some sort of twisted wishful thinking on my part. I’m sentimental about Joe (though will be ok if Girardi is the replacement) and have been worried sick about him leaving for 10 days now. So just a little escapist fantasy with the scenario. If Mo and Jorge leave I seriously think I’ll have a heart attack. Although I think they’re just bluffing they aren’t going anywhere even if Joe’s gone.
I put nothing past the Yankees in terms of what they are doing but remember these were the same people that were able to keep the Rocket announcement behind closed doors and it caught everyone by surprise until he showed up at the Stadium. I personally am very impressed that nothing has leaked out one way or the other
175? I cant’ imagine they’re going to let Joba pitch more than 150. Remember the 40+ rule? That means when a pitcher exceeds his total IP by 40 IPs the following year, his risk on injury increases manifold. IL Ducci of SI wrote an article about it last year for SI.Com.
Which means we’re not only going to see Mussina but Igawa and/or Karstens and/or Rasner as well.
I think I know why the Yanks haven’t given anyone anything about anything re: the team including the job status of Torre:
The Yanks don’t want to make an announcement on Torre’s job status during the A.L.C.S. so as not to detract attention
from the series (however one-sided and boring to most people outside of Cleveland and Ohio it’s been)? Think about it: Cleveland finishes off Boston tomorrow night, the Yanks announce nothing Friday, let everyone wonder what’s up over the weekend, then announce Torre will be let go or fired Monday. I could also see Steinbrenner wanting all the media attention on the Yanks during the break before the World Series.
Whenever something is announced, I hope one announcement is that Torre will be let go when his contract officially expires 10/31. The Yanks cannot reward Torre with a new contract after the fourth straight embarassing postseason series loss including the third straight embarassing first round exit. It doesn’t sound right to bring him back after that/ all this losing the past 7 years and his return stinks of a move done to placate the media and the fan masses, not real fans. Real Yankee fans want to see a new, different, better way, and Torre is just not that, sorry. People will still flock to the current Yankee Stadium in its final season morever flock to it and their tv sets for Yankee games cuz they’re Yankee fans first and foremost, Torre manager or not. Torre will have a retired number and plaque in Monument Park along with a first ballot Hall Of Fame induction in 2012 at the earliest (assuming he retired after this year). His 2007 salary alone ($7-7.5M) alone could be his daughter’s lifetime financial security. So cry me a river if he’s let go or even fired if Steinbrenner really wants to stick it to him.
Trey Hillman and Dave Eiland for new Yankee manager and pitching coach respectively for 2008 only. Yeah they make the big time but they have to produce right away cuz that’s what this organization is about. These are not trophy jobs and they know this. There’s a sense of urgency for them as their future careers in M.L.B. depend on it. If the Yanks make the postseason but don’t get past the first round again or they make the A.L.C.S. but not the World Series, give them 2009. If the Yanks reach the World Series and lose it, give them 2-year extensions. If the Yanks win the World Series, give them 3-year extensions. I like the idea of guys who worked with Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy managing them. I also like the idea of promoting and rebuilding from within beyond players.
“and his return stinks of a move done to placate the media and the fan masses, not real fans.”
So anybody that likes Torre and doesn’t think he should be canned is not a “real” fan? Damn, I guess I just lost my “status” after 35+ years. Looks like there will be a lot of people disappointed to hear that about themselves here as well.
Thanks for giving me a heads up though, so I don’t waste anymore time following a team I’ve loved for nearly 4 decades.
Hey Pete,
Just a note on the real New York event tonight: Bruce and the E Street Band’s return to the Garden. It was a hell of a good time. The Garden was packed, obviously, though people were still filling in until about 45 minutes after the show was supposed to start. Opened with Radio Nowhere, which is a great energy track. The crowd knew their older less mainstream Springsteen extremely well (everyone sang Ties that Bind, Backstreets, She’s the One) but the air sort of came out of the place on some of the newer tracks (I especially thought Magic was lacking in any sort of crowd response). I was impressed by The Boss giving a bit of a political speech before playing Living in the Future, regardless of the actual politics I think it shows character to stand up for a few of his views in a super public venue like that. Lonesome Day also got a nice reaction. I was hoping for a bit more from The Rising personally. The later part of the show certainly had the most energy. He ‘finished’ with Badlands which had great support. In the encore they played, among others including the catchy Girls in Their Summer Clothes, Born to Run and Dancing in the Dark. Those two got by far the biggest crowd reaction; the Garden was literally shaking like back in the old days when the Knicks used to make the playoffs. I wish he had thrown in Thunder Road, Growin’ Up, Atlantic City, The River or Glory Days over Reason to Believe personally, but, all-in-all, a hell of a good show.
Wolf in Pinstripes has got it right !
I can honestly claim 60+ years and I am NOT embarassed by 12 consecutive playoffs!
“A Theory” speaks for Yankee fans ?
He speaks blasphemy !!!
As “da Bums” used to say, “Wait ’til next year”.
Peter-You might want to defend yourself. This entry is all about you.
http://mvn.com/mlb-yankees/2007/10/17/todays-rant/
Thats right “Wolf In Pinstripes” cuz only a fake Yankee fan thinks it’s cool that this team has turned into the A.L. version of the Atlanta Braves (a joke), you’re obviously one of them. Keep living in 1996, 1998, 1999, and 2000.
Oh b.t.w. I could care less if you’ve been a Yankee fan for 35 years. I’ve followed the Yanks since 1982 (big deal) and I could honestly tell you the 2001 on Yanks have been worse than the 1982-93 teams in this way: With those 1982-93 teams, you knew they just didn’t have what it took to win and knew they were gonna suck 1989-93, the writing was on the wall by 1989 (no more Guidry, Righetti, Winfield, Randolph, Henderson, prime Mattingly, FARM SYSTEM). The best team in the 1982-93 era was 1985, that was their one legitmate chance at the postseason. 1982 was a wash. 1983 was good but not good enough, you saw the shortcomings. 1984 was a step back. 1986 was 1983 Part II. 1987 was the epitome of why the 1980s Yanks were alsorans. 1988 was a step back. 1989-91 was expected awfulness. The entire 1980s Yanks would’ve been friggin’ garbage without Guidry.
Then came 1992. Showalter, a new manager with a new vision.
The team finished with a lousy record (76-86), but had their best season since 1988 and were 5 wins away from bare minimum respectability (.500). The culture further changed for the better in 1993 and 1994. Where’s that upward climb with Torre since 2001? Joba with zero M.L.B. starts? Kennedy with 3 M.L.B. starts? Hughes with 13 M.L.B. starts? Since when did he have a part in that? The man never made a guy.
He just gets handed them. Showalter made Bernie and O’Neill i.e. elevated their game. Who has Torre elevated?
A lucky blessed idiot living off past successes which time and horrendous failure ever since shows he lucked into. A lucky blessed idiot giftwrapped talent (both him and that talent paid more than anyone) who can’t get the most out of them. That’s who 2001 Torre has been.
Hard to take a guy like “ATheory” seriously when he basically called everyone a bunch of morons because we don’t think his hyperbole has passed the smell test.
It’s your right to give Showalter all the credit for the rings Torre has on his fingers and the string of 13 postseasons, but you’re also way off-base.
Maybe you haven’t noticed, but that string of postseason appearances have only been matched by one team in MLB history. This team will be fine and ready for postseason success again if they continue the plan of stacking the rotation with young guns and build a stable of pitching depth.
I guess the fact that Torre is beloved by essentially all of his players is irrelevant to you, but it means something to the organization or they would have canned him by now.
Unless you address the root of the problem (the starting rotation), this team will fare no better with another manager at the helm. It’s not a coincidence that this team hasn’t reverted to the dynasty years since the rotation took a dramatic decline since 2003.
Sweeny Murti said it best on his blog a couple of days ago:
_Still trying to figure out why it’s been so hard to repeat the success Joe Torre found earlier in his tenure? Just remember-it’s more about the horses than it is the jockeys._
_From 1996-2003 the Yankees played 99 postseason games (66-33) and used 10 different starting pitchers. From 2004-2007 the Yankees played 24 postseason games (10-14) and used 11 different starting pitchers._
_The Yankees have been shuffling the deck every year and keep coming up with the jokers instead of the aces. When they get back to a stable starting rotation, then they can look forward again to another run of success. You can hit your way to 90+ wins, but to get those last 11 that lead to a parade you have to have the starting pitching…and the Yankees haven’t in recent years._
This team’s struggles in the postseason has nothing to do with Torre. It’s about not having the horses in the rotation that he had during their dynasty.
There will be no announcement until after the World Series.
The media should stop wasting time hanging around Legends Field and go 3 miles away to Tampa International Airport.
If they see Joe Torre, Don Mattingly, or Joe Girardi in the baggage claim areas, something is up.
“They’ve become boring. On the tedious meter, they’ve hit 11. It has now been nine days since the season ended and they still can’t make a decision about the manager. Pamela Anderson has had shorter marriages.”
Time to get out your notes from the class on Using and Being Used by The Media.
If you recall, The Principal Owner reached out to the media and asked them to watch as he lit the fuse on Joe’s job before game 3. Once he did that, the decision on Joe became fair game for the media. George’s pre-emptive strike against Joe has now forced Cashman to play defense and issue those “we have a process” statements, which just makes it all seem that much more tedious and boring in the context of George’s earlier threat.
The bottom line is if you don’t want extra media scrutiny on your process, don’t invite it with a threat against the manager. Pete can grouse all he wants that they are getting boring and NY means Nothing Yet, and that this is taking too long. It’s all fair comment after what George did.
Giuseppe Franco,
Thank you for a great post….Yes, clearly 2007 was Torre’s fault. It had nothing to do with Wang cr@ping the bed in 2 games and Roger getting pulled after 2 innnings (although we later won the game). So sick of 11 year little boys like A Theory, posing as somebody older and wiser. It is so obvious he is in 5th grade. I’m 33 and have been a fan since 1980 or so. That length of fandom gives me perspective. I’m happy making the playoffs every season even if we don’t win it all. Sure beats fruitless, awful seasons like 1989, 1990, 1991, etc. Of course, A Theory hoped on the bandwagaon in 2000, so can’t appreciate that.
Wow, A Theory is a bigger idiot than I realized. Torre never “elevated” anyone? Hmmm….Mo had 67 innings in ’95 under Buck with a 5.51 ERA. ’96 under Torre? 2.09. The following year? 1.88 ERA with 45 saves. Don’t let the facts get the way in your ignorant, Joe-hating opinion, A Theory.
i keep hearing the dave eiland buzz. eiland is a relative newbie. he has only been coaching a few years. this is typical of the disorganization of the present yankee management and ownership. why eiland? because joba, kennedy, and hughes are good.? sj44 could have coached them and they would still be good. they were good before eiland came.
the orioles just hired the marlins pitching coach. this was his experienece in addition to his two years as marlins pitching coach according to espn: “Before joining the Marlins, Kranitz had a 22-year run as a coach and instructor in the Cubs organization.”
this irrational leap to give the job to eiland is a rush to judgement based on nothing substantial.
i have nothing against dave eiland because l know almost nothing about him. what is his his pitching development and pitching conditioning philosophy? does anyone know including the yankees? i look at it as lighweight new ownership( the steinbrenner sons) hiring lightweight new coaches. eiland should stay in the minor leagues to develop as a pitching coach. he shouldn’t be learning his profession at the major league level with the yankees. there are probably 50 minor league pitching coaches with more experience. why eiland? just because he’s there?
I’m not going to agree or disagree with ATheory, but to be fair, Joe Torre had absolutely nothing to do with Mo’s god-given ability to throw his cut fastball.
…but if you want to give Torre credit for MO’s numbers in ’96 and ’97, then do you blame Torre when MO gave up the GW hit in 2001 to lose the WS? or how about blaming him for the mismanagement of Gordon and MO during the only 3-0 collapse in postseason history?
God forbid sportswriters get a story quick!
LOL.
I think the franchise is a tad more important than just “doing something”.
Just get it right. Who cares how long it takes. Torre is under contract thru the Series anyway. It’s not like he’s been hungout to dry.
my point being, there is a fine line to walk about how explaining why and how players perform, or dont perform, under a particular manager.
some of it is motivation, in-game management, player management, and some of it is just player ability taking over or disappearing.
How can you blame Torre for getting to the playoffs? He’s won 90+ games with a team with terrible set up men and no ace.
It should be hailed as an achievement.
It’s not Torres fault that we havent had any pitching. And you win championships with pitching. He was a genuis when he sent out Cone, Duque, Clemens, Wells, Stanton, Nelson, etc.
He’s an idiot and obviously over his head when he sends out a 45 yr old Clemens, a washed up Moose and a inexplicabaly terrible Wang.
Randy 1
I haven’t heard that the Yankees management and ownership want Dave Eiland as pitching coach. I’ve seen his name mentioned here and in the papers, but not coming from the mouth of anyone with authority.
My thinking with promoting Dave Eiland is this: since he’s so good at what he does now, which is to coach developing pitchers in the minors, who takes his place if he is promoted? And to me, that’s important since the Yankees have decided they are going to be drafting more young upper-ceiling guys.
As far as I’m concerned, anything in the papers these days is conjecture and hearsay. Fun to discuss but nothing to make bets on.
What I think makes an interesting discussion is: young, limited experience, possibly having or open to new ideas versus older, more experienced, but maybe set in their methods? (With regard to managers as well as coaches.)
My thinking on Leo Mazzone is that if Joe Torre and whatever coaches were employed at the time were not responsible for Mo’s God-given gift to throw the cut fastball, then it is also true that Mazzone may have just been in the right job at the right time with the right arms – Smoltz, Glavine and Maddux were not your typical prospects. With Baltimore, I read stories that credit him with the development of the better prospects there, but also saying he had no positive effect on the lesser pitchers. Which says to me, if the product is good enough in its raw state, Mazzoni, or maybe any coach, can be helpful in refining that product; if they don’t have the goods to begin with, they’re probaby not going to be that good no matter who or what. Of course, there’s always that diamond in the rough, but that is the rarity.
And if you are going to bash Joe for bullpen you must hail him for the strength of the team from 96-2001. The bullpen.
I didn’t see him wreck the careers of Mo, Stanton, Nelson, Mendoza.
He wrecked who? Gordon? Quantrill? Sturtze? Proctor?
Sorry people. But they are journeymen with a history of arm problems. Joe had nothing to do with it. They would disagree too since they got a chance to pitch for a first place team in the playoffs and were trusted to do a job.
Hey Doreen,
What IS coming from the mouths of people with authority?????
Yeah. Nothing.
TurnTwo, you do realize, moron, that Joe or any manager has nothing to do with a players God given ability right?
That’s not his job, right???
His job is to put players in situations that make them use their ability and get the most out of them in order to win games.
I think Joe’s done that especially with Mo, right???
I forgot they sell crazy this early.
* “We’re just going to go have fun and play the game,” he said. “That’s it. If we go play hard and the thing doesn’t come like it’s supposed to come, we’ll move on. We’ll come next year. Why should we panic? We’ve got a great team. If it doesn’t happen, good. We’ll come next year and try to do it again.
“We’re confident every day. It doesn’t matter how things go for you. We’re not going to give up. We’re just going to go and play the game, like I’ve said, and move on. If it doesn’t happen, so who cares? There’s always next year. It’s not like the end of the world or something.”
Can you imagine if Alex said this. It would be everywhere!! But because Manny says it is it “Manny being Manny”. As if the man is stupid! I’m so sick and tired of hearing that. Oh Manny missplays a fly ball, it’s “Manny being Manny”, Manny watches a homerun, “it’s Manny being Manny”. When does the man take some responsiblity for his actions? If Alex sat for 5 seconds to watch a homerun, everyone would be all over him.
Teddy –
That’s true. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. Just aggravating.
Jennifer -
Plus, it’s awfully presumptious of Manny, isn’t it, to assume they’ll just come back again next year, especially since they weren’t there last year at all? Now, if Boston had the track record of, say, 12 post-season appearances in a row, maybe you could understand such a statement.
Apparently ARod is held to some different standard because he is more talented or highest paid, or whatever. Pedroia slaps a ball and it’s understandable because he is a medium-level infielder just trying to win a game. Manny is “Manny being Manny.” Why are there no standards except when ARod is involved? Truthfully, it is ridiculous. Bad form is bad form no matter who does it.
Exactly, I haven’t heard anything about what Dusty did. But like you said because he is a scrappy little ball player he gets away with it. UGH It is so annoying!
And I really wish that someone would drill Manny right between the numbers already! I can’t stand that he gets away with that garbage. He is showing up the pitchers!!
Jennifer –
The thing with drilling Manny is you really have to pick your spot. Cleveland sure doesn’t want to do it now – why stir up any additional motivation for the Red Sox when you only have to win one more game?
Manny is a dangerous hitter. He’s good at what he does. The reason he’s so good, I’m convinced, is he’s oblivious to what everyone and everything around him. Manny being Manny works for him!
sticks and stones, Teddy.
all I said was that if you are going to blame Torre for all that was right, then he deserves to be blamed for all thats wrong.
doreen-
i like your idea of opening up the discussion of new school pithing coaches vs. old school pitching coaches. but i would bet that dave eiland is not strong on new school pitching philosophies. i base this on he is a former player who hasn’t had time to study biomechanical approaches or to become an expert like someone like rick petersen who is clearly cutting edge. eiland looks to me to be inexperienced and lacking in new school education. i may be wrong as i know little about him, but i’ve heard nothing new school about him. i think he’s just a former player who doesn’t know much new school stuff who just happens to be there when joba, hughes and kennedy came up.
mazzone ( who ‘im not advocating) has a definite philosophy based on throwing a lot and being a little tired so control is consistently there. rick petersen has a definite philosophy.
i’m not so much down on eiland as i am on the process where he seems to have emerged as the favorite as the next pitching coach. i don’t think anyone in charge (steinbrenner sons)knows how to hire a pitching coach.
my preference would be someone like rick peteresen who has old school eperience( +25years) plus new school technology experience. no one i know of is ahead of rick peteresen in the science of pitching applied to major league players.
i don’t think eiland would be able to keep up in a discussion with rick petersen.
Dave Eiland is one of those coaches that had a so-so active career and injured often but very much a student of the game and especially pitching and pitchers mechanics.
Scott Aldred is another in the mold of Eiland and has elevated himself in the farm system. Should Eiland get the call to the Bronx, Aldred would be promoted to AAA Scranton/Wilkes-Barre.
“Sorry people. But they are journeymen with a history of arm problems. Joe had nothing to do with it.”
i would agree with that. marginal pitchers will do things that are bad for their arm to get a few years in( and that lucrative pension). they will do things like throwing across their body to create movement knowing this will shorten their career. they will pitch when they are injured and abuse their bodies to stay on the team. sturtz was a prime example of this. he knows it wasn’t torre who shortened his career. it was his own choices. but he did last long enough to get fully vested in the mlb pension plan. that means he’s set for life. from his perspective he didn’t make a bad choice.
Rick Peterson was also the guy who said he could fix Victor Zambrano is 10 minutes, and we all see how that turned out.
*in, not is…
I’ve got to chime in on “A Theory”‘s nonsense. I really can’t stand the Fan Police who go around saying who is and isn’t a “true fan” and spouting off on what “real fans” do and do not think. Get over yourself. You’re entitled to your own opinion, period. Your opinion isn’t any more valid or important than anyone else’s just because you started following the team in 1982.
As for the idea that Torre has to go because of the “embarrassment” of the team losing in the first round again, you are barking up the wrong tree. Obviously, it’s not Torre’s fault Wang forgot how to pitch this year or that everybody forgot how to hit in last year’s seies against Detroit. Why does TORRE have to go on account of these players’ failures?
Moreover, how does firing Torre help erase the so-called “embarrassment” of losing in the first round? Arguably, it ADDS to the embarrassment for the team to jettison a HoF manager, who has delivered a dozen straight playoff appearances, in such a pointless, kneejerk fashion. Hopefully, the Steinbrenners, et al, are smart enough to know that the decision whether to retain Torre should have nothing to do with 2001-07, and everything to do with 2008-09. That is, they should be focused solely on who is the right man for the job going forward. What’s past is past.
“Dave Eiland is one of those coaches that had a so-so active career and injured often but very much a student of the game and especially pitching and pitchers mechanics.”
so what is eiland’s pitching philosophy? what biomechanical school of thought does he advocate? where did he study? degrees? just asking.
It’s become evermore clear that Hank & Hal Steinbrenner have taken the reigns of the team otherwise George’s statement to the Jersey newspaper 3 weeks ago would have stuck by now. They’re using heavy reliance of the advisory group in making the 1st significant decision they’ll make in the running of the Yankees.
“Rick Peterson was also the guy who said he could fix Victor Zambrano is 10 minutes, and we all see how that turned out.”
take a look at his team’s era for each year he has been a pitching coach.
A Theory – fine, you are entitled to your opinions. But I must ask you, if Yanks get rid of Joe, who else is better? It’s easy for us amateurs not actually running the joint to say Joe is not good enough without having to worry about a legitimate replacement. If 12 consecutive PO appearances is not good enough for you, show me another manager who has done better and I would say fair, give that guy the job. If no championship in 7 years bothers you so much, show me another guy who has won more than 1 in last 7 years. I know Joe is not perfect, I’m frustrated too sometimes with his in-game strategies. But it’s not hard to see no one is perfect. Like Joe said, “these players are not machines, there’s blood running through those veins”, same applies to managers. Given the options available, Joe is the best around by a long shot.
Dont forget the talent of the pitchers Peterson worked with. Look at his results from this past year; and when the Mets when in the tank in Sept, he disappeared… and then when John Maine almost threw a no-hitter, he jumped out to take the credit.
i’m not saying Peterson is a bad pitching coach, but just because the staffs he worked with had low ERAs, i’m not going to give him all the credit.
For my money, over the past couple years, I havent seen a pitching coach do more with less than Dave Duncan in StL.
Randy 1 -
There is no “degree” per se with a pitching coach. There’s never been a certain biomechanical “new school” of thought.
The best and proven pitching coaches were all able to detect a mechanical flaw in conjuction with what a pitcher’s natural motion may be. In the case of Leo Mazzone, he’s long advocated that pitcher’s arms shouldn’t be babied and regular throwing between starts. Dave Eiland must have done something right. Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy and others have all gone through him.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/ne.....hall051007
Who cares who the coaches are?
If they don’t get some real top notch pitching in here it won’t matter anyway.
It’ll be the same discussion next year.
Mazzone did a great job with Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Bedard
WOW
He must be something special!
I don’t really get the big deal about Manny watching his home runs. It’s a game, God forbid if someone celebrates their accomplishments openly. In fact, I’d love to see players celeberate home runs like NFL players celebrate TDs or soccer players celebrate goals. It makes that game that more fun.
You can bean Manny next May. It doesn’t have to be tonight.
They have long memories in baseball.
“Mazzone did a great job with Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Bedard
WOW
He must be something special!”
You’re being ridiculous. He’s done a lot more than that, particularlly with the Braves bullpen over the years. As a Yankees fan, you should know that he’s pretty much responsible for Jaret Wright getting that big contract.
Here’s a list of some other Mazzone successes that I found:
In 6 ML seasons before coming to Atlanta in 1999, Mike Remlinger had a 4.63 ERA. From 1999-2002 with the Braves Remlinger compiled a 2.65 ERA.
In 2001 37 year old John Burkett had the best year of his career pitching for the Braves, compiling a 3.04 ERA and 187 K’s in 219.1 IP.
Baltimore trade acquisition Damian Moss compiled a 3.40 ERA in 188 career innings with the Braves. With 3 different teams since then Moss compiled a 5.70 ERA and last saw big league action in 2004.
In 2002-2004 Kevin Gryboski compiled a 3.38 ERA in 146.1 relief innings. Since leaving he hasn’t been able to find steady work.
In 2003-2005 with the Braves Horacio Ramirez compiled a 4.07 ERA in 445 innings. In 2006 under pitching coach Roger McDowell and in 2007 with Seattle, Ramirez has compiled a 5.99 ERA.
In 2002-2003 Russ Ortiz compiled a 3.97 ERA in 417 innings with the Braves. His ERA in all other ML action is 4.59.
In 2004 Antonino Alfonseca compiled a 2.57 ERA in 73.2 IP for the Braves. His ERA in all other ML action is 4.32.
In 2002 Juan Cruz compiled a 2.75 ERA in 72 IP for the Braves. His ERA in all other ML action is 4.42.
In 2004 current Oriole Jaret Wright compiled a 3.28 ERA in 186.1 IP for the Braves. His ERA in all other ML action is 5.52.
In 2005 Jorge Sosa compiled a 2.55 ERA in 134 IP with the Braves. Under Roger McDowell and with all other teams his ERA is 5.08.
In 2001 Jose Cabrera compiled a 2.88 ERA in 59.1 IP for the Braves. His ERA in all other ML action is 5.53.
In 2002 36 year old Darren Holmes had the best year of his career for the Braves, compiling a 1.81 ERA in 54.2 IP.
Here is a list of other Mazzone successes that I found:
In 6 ML seasons before coming to Atlanta in 1999, Mike Remlinger had a 4.63 ERA. From 1999-2002 with the Braves Remlinger compiled a 2.65 ERA.
In 2001 37 year old John Burkett had the best year of his career pitching for the Braves, compiling a 3.04 ERA and 187 K’s in 219.1 IP.
Baltimore trade acquisition Damian Moss compiled a 3.40 ERA in 188 career innings with the Braves. With 3 different teams since then Moss compiled a 5.70 ERA and last saw big league action in 2004.
In 2002-2004 Kevin Gryboski compiled a 3.38 ERA in 146.1 relief innings. Since leaving he hasn’t been able to find steady work.
In 2003-2005 with the Braves Horacio Ramirez compiled a 4.07 ERA in 445 innings. In 2006 under pitching coach Roger McDowell and in 2007 with Seattle, Ramirez has compiled a 5.99 ERA.
In 2002-2003 Russ Ortiz compiled a 3.97 ERA in 417 innings with the Braves. His ERA in all other ML action is 4.59.
In 2004 Antonino Alfonseca compiled a 2.57 ERA in 73.2 IP for the Braves. His ERA in all other ML action is 4.32.
In 2002 Juan Cruz compiled a 2.75 ERA in 72 IP for the Braves. His ERA in all other ML action is 4.42.
In 2004 current Oriole Jaret Wright compiled a 3.28 ERA in 186.1 IP for the Braves. His ERA in all other ML action is 5.52.
In 2005 Jorge Sosa compiled a 2.55 ERA in 134 IP with the Braves. Under Roger McDowell and with all other teams his ERA is 5.08.
In 2001 Jose Cabrera compiled a 2.88 ERA in 59.1 IP for the Braves. His ERA in all other ML action is 5.53.
In 2002 36 year old Darren Holmes had the best year of his career for the Braves, compiling a 1.81 ERA in 54.2 IP.
Sorry about the double post. Didn’t think the first one went through.
what the deliyo?????
Manny is an idiot. Joba should bean him next season just to do it. Then he should bean Youkilis and on his way to the showers because he will definitley get tossed, throw one at Francona and try to hit the chew or gum he always has jammed in his mouth.
Bloomy
He has been doing it for years and no one has hit him in responce. It won’t change, I don’t expect anyone to bean him. Should they Hell yeah, but they won’t.
Mazzone gave Wright one good year.
And forgive me for saying but Jaret Wright isn’t exactly a cream puff.
He only started a game 7 at 21 years old.
It’s not like he didn’t have pitching talent.
Get off Mazzone’s jock.
No one can defend Leo M after Baltimore’s terrible last two years.
He’s indefensible.
Manny is the “Happy Idiot”.
Actually, while Manny does stand and admire his home runs, I don’t think he does this with animosity towards the pitcher. I think he is in his own world, admiring his handiwork outside of any other considerations. Surely that is evidenced by the latest time, admiring a home run that did not really do much good for his team at the time it was hit. In fact, I’m beginning to think that Manny gets away with “being Manny” because he never seems to hold anything against anyone. He goes blithely about his business, happily playing baseball and doing it very well. I wish I could be as stress-free as he appears to be!
What’s gotten tired is all this talk of “firing” Torre or Torre “quitting.” It’s hard to fire someone that doesn’t work for you, and equally hard to quit a job you don’t have.
And before we get into the technicalities of it, I suppose they could fire him before the end of the month when his contract technically expires or he could quit before that time, but what purpose would either of those things do except for one party to say “eat it” to the other….. Neither will do that so enough of the fire/quit talk already.
Contract expired = no employee. Very simple. The meetings are about next year and Joe Torre is not an employee for next year until he is offered and accepts a contract.
I personally don’t care how long they take as long as they make the right decision. All the talk about them embarrassing Torre was more applicable last year when he had a contract and was essentially waiting to be fired.
Bosco,
You think those “career years” had anything to do with the fact that they were finally playing on a winning team???
Surrounded by good players in a pitching friendly ballpark?
Or is it all because Mazzonne is a phenomenal coach??
Let’s be real. Many relievers are good for those one or two years. Not many have sustained success.
How many relievers did Mazzonne have sustained success with?
Zero.
The only people that care that it is taking a long time to figure out are sportswriters.
I would be more concerned if they started making spur of the moment decisions.
I like that they are taking their time and doing the prudent thing.
Everyone keeps saying “This isn’t George”.
Actually it is. How many managers has he fired since 1992?
How many titles has he won? I think he learned and grew up.
Sportswriters and older guys are living in nostalgia thinking how great would it be to cover/watch a team like the Bronx Zoo.
Doreen, no offense, but Manny is absolutely being a pompous jackass when he “admires” his homeruns. It’s not about admiring his handy work, it’s about telling the pitcher, the fans, every other player, and anyone watching the game or sportscenter that he is king manny. The king part, is definitely in his head, but don’t think for a second his standing still arms raised looking at everyone who will look at him is anything less than class-less taunting, bragging, and nonsense.
And you’re right about him being stress free, but that’s also a product of not caring about anyone but himself. yes, I’m judging him without knowing the man, but actions usually do speak louder than words and his actions say it all.
Biggest piece of garbage in MLB as far as I’m concerened and an embarrassment to NY (he being from Washington Heights or wherever he’s from).
“No one can defend Leo M after Baltimore’s terrible last two years.
He’s indefensible.”
Did you honestly expect the pitching coach to turn around a horribly flawed team like Baltimore? He got great performances out of several of their starters including fallen prospects like Jeremy Guthrie.
“The king part, is definitely in his head, but don’t think for a second his standing still arms raised looking at everyone who will look at him is anything less than class-less taunting, bragging, and nonsense.”
What is classless about bragging after you backed it up? Some people are just too uptight. Relax people and enjoy the game.
I’d rather have pitchers with talent here like a Kazmir than a pitching coach that thinks they can work miracles with people like Zambrano.
Why was he fired then, Bosco????
He was hired to turn that pitching around!!
Jesus. That was his job.
I guess they should have gave him an extension because he did such great work in Atlanta. Forget the crappy work he did in Baltimore.
By your theory and anyone else defending Leo he could have made a great staff out of marginal guys. Why couldn’t he do it in Baltimore????
I highly doubt any offers have been made without it being reported somewhere. They may be gauging Torre’s interest, but I doubt it, they know he’s interested. they may be working on an offer.
Another possibility is working with Donnie and trying to figure out the best way to fix the media mess they’ve allowed to happen and transistion in a classy way from Torre to Donnie. Trying to do so without coming off like the bad guys and without disrespecting Torre in any way. Those could still be the details they’re working out, as well as Donnie’s contract or whomever else’s.
If the other team doesn’t care what he does, you shouldn’t.
I think winning and laughing at him makes more sense than to start a fight during a LCS.
_The only people that care that it is taking a long time to figure out are sportswriters.
I would be more concerned if they started making spur of the moment decisions._
agreed 100%
Why would they care about the media mess?
If they cared about a media mess they would have made a decision last week.
It’s about what is best for the franchise.
“You think those “career yearsâ€? had anything to do with the fact that they were finally playing on a winning team???
Surrounded by good players in a pitching friendly ballpark?
Or is it all because Mazzonne is a phenomenal coach??
Let’s be real. Many relievers are good for those one or two years. Not many have sustained success.
How many relievers did Mazzonne have sustained success with?
Zero.”
I think some of the Mazzone Effect that’s been documented by a few studies is caused by the things you’ve mentioned, but I also have a hard time believing that Mazzone is not responsible for any of his pitchers’ successes. All I’m saying is this stuff about him only being successful because of Smoltz, Glavine, and Madduz is as dumb as saying the Billy Beane has only been successful because of Hudson, Mulder, and Zito.
Of Manny being Manny.
We don’t “got” nothing to lose.” Beantown Herald paper!
As the saying goes.It’s better for people to “think”
your stupid than open your mouth and remove all doubt!!
Actually Bosco, Beane is only as good and smart as his starting pitching.
Moneyball and whatever philosophy he has or is currently doing is only as good as his SP. Mulder, Hudson, Zito, Harden made him.
Haren, Blanton, Zito, Harden made him a genuis again.
This year when all they had was Haren he doesn’t look so smart, does he?
I don’t see the pitching coaches in oakland getting any credit for the success. Do you?
If a coach truly has an impact, shouldn’t what they’ve taught stay with the pupil? (At least if that pupil had spent at least an entire season with him.) That would mean that once Mazzone or any other coach for that matter, has “fixed” or “molded” a pitcher, shouldn’t that pitcher be able to fall back on those lessons, even if the said pitching coach was no longer there? You have to question the actual impact going forward. For instance, Dave Duncan was given a whole lot of credit for “fixing” Jeff Weaver. Well, Weaver was effective for the Cardinals for one month. But this year with the Mariners, it seemed he went back to being the pitcher that he was. And clearly, Weaver didn’t think enough of the tutelage that he got from Dave Duncan to stick around St. Louis, but that could just be Jeff Weaver.
Also, Jose Contreras when he had the incredible year and a half for the White Sox. Ozzie (Manager, not pitching coach) was given credit for being able to communicate effectively with him, and that’s why the turn around. But, again, it didn’t last.
I guess all I’m saying is it’s not necessarily a cause-and-effect thing. Sometimes it’s circumstantial. Sometimes the best coaches are simply the ones that don’t get in the way — “first, do no harm” kind of coaches.
The other thing that strikes me about coaching or teaching is to keep in mind that each pupil is an individual with individual learning styles. I think the best coaches are able to relate to many different learning styles and make themselves understood whatever way they can. No one theory fits all, and I think the best teachers know this and are flexible and open to varying methods.
So I would probably favor a coach who isn’t married to one technique or another.
Mark, I read the article you linked to about Mike Marshall’s methods. What I was not impressed with was his closed-mindedness about his method. Maybe it is the miracle of the pitching future, maybe not. Maybe for most pitchers some combination of his method and more traditional ones would work.
I have to admit I’ve been going back and forth on Torre all week (keep him or let him go) and I think after trying to find a viable alternative to Joe, I found an article by Joel Sherman that pretty much sums it up:
“Daily News: Keep Joe link”:http://www.nypost.com/seven/10.....htm?page=0
Mazzone proved it the past two years. Pitching coaches need good pitchers to be successful.
You can’t make orange juice with lemonade.
I think 99% of pitching coaches could have been successful with 3 Hall of Famers in Atlanta.
sunny, you spelled Post wrong
“Why was he fired then, Bosco????
He was hired to turn that pitching around!!
Jesus. That was his job.
I guess they should have gave him an extension because he did such great work in Atlanta. Forget the crappy work he did in Baltimore.
By your theory and anyone else defending Leo he could have made a great staff out of marginal guys. Why couldn’t he do it in Baltimore????”
Take a look at Baltimore’s pitching staff. I don’t think there has ever been a coach that could have turned around that staff, especially with all the injuries to several of the guys with actual talent.
As far as being fired, I don’t think it should be surprising that Baltimore’s upper management made a stupid decision.
Sunny at least credit the Post when you link it.
Bosco,
There really is no need to actually copy and paste everything I say. People can read, kid.
Oops -forgot the summary:
Kepp Joe
$4 mil two year per.
$1 mil bonus for playoff appearance and each series win
Promote Mattingly to Scranton Manager for some experience with the understanding he’s next in line.
Promote Larry Bowa to Bench Coach, Pena to third base coach and Trey Hillman as first base coach.
And one other thing – get Shelley Duncanstein to call his dad Dave to come to the Yankees.
D’OH!! Sorry, was reading another article and mislabelled them – my bad!
12 years ago all you whiners would be going ape sh*t after Buck had been fired.
And double ape sh*t after Torre was hired.
If management started listening to the fans they’d be with them real quick in the stands. Jobless.
bloody hell – *KEEP* not kepp… so much for my dream of becoming a full time spell checker…
There is no way Joe isn’t coming back next year.
They aren’t going to give the keys to a Ferrari to a rookie manager.
Let’s not fawn over dave Duncan either.
He is so good he had what? 83 win team last year and sub 81 team this year.
And hes a genuis? For what? For winning 11 games last year and getting some decent performances out of Jeff Weaver and Jeff Suppan?
Chris NY –
I agree with you that Manny is not thinking about anyone but himself. And the attention he can bring himself. That’s why I think his stance is more about glorifying himself than actually being in the face of the opponent.
But — the impact is the same, regardless of his motivation. I don’t disagree that he’s a jerk and I wouldn’t want him on any team I rooted for. If he was, he’d be on one of those guys that you’re rooting for the uniform, not the individual.
It took a real genuis last year to give Adam Wainwright important outs in October and to give the ball to the best starter in the league, Carpenter.
LOL.
Can’t we see it’s all about pitching?
You think Francona, Varitek, etc like when Manny does his stare at the ball thing???
Not a chance in hell.
I don’t know if anyone else heard Mike & Mike this morning with everyone’s favorite idiot (Steve Phillips), but according to Phillips this is his take on what is going down:
Cashman and Torre are pretty tight
You don’t fire someone over the phone – that’s something you do face to face.
You also don’t call someone over the phone repeatedly when you’re going to fire them either.
Cashman doesn’t leave the meetings until something is resolved on the Torre front.
Cashman doesn’t go straight to Torre’s house after departing the meetings to “talk” to Torre.
Meaning: Torre’s going to come back. Two – maybe three – year deal. MUCH less money – 3 1/2 or 4 mil. And what they’re doing now is finalizing the coaching staff – maybe no Guidry, etc.
Seems to support Sherman of the *POST* – but what do you think Pete? Speculation or Possible?
On all this Manny talk…all I know is if Joe Torre was Manny’s manager, he would have put a stop to that showboating BS in a heartbeat.
ps – just curious here – but what are everyone’s thoughts on the chances of arod’s return? Do you think he’ll opt out? Or negotiate an extension?
Pete has been pretty quiet this morning. Maybe he did go to see Bruce last night after all.
On a completely separate topic, Jorge Posada is special guest ringmaster next Tuesday for the Big Apple Circus- get your tickets now!
What are the reasons behind Guidry’s firing?
“ps – just curious here – but what are everyone’s thoughts on the chances of arod’s return? Do you think he’ll opt out? Or negotiate an extension?”
Unless we make some mindblowing offer during the 10 day negotiation period, I think Boras is going to have him opt out, test the open market, and leave the team.
Ummmm Sunny
What isn’t pure speculation at this point??
Is it held in MSG?
Why would A-Rod leave?
Playoffs every yr with a chance to win? check
Richest team able to offer most? Check
Comfortable and Successful in big city that lives for sports? check
has experienced crappy locales for the money? check
marketing and after baseball life being part of mantle, dimaggio, ruth, gehrig, etc? check
Sunny615
A funny person once said,regards Arod,”He knows where his bread is buttered.” I think he’s at Boras’s house this week, and being worked over with “opt out advice,but He will come to his senses and accept a extension and not opt out.imho
Bosco –
IF Guidry is let go, it will be the same reason they let go of Mazzilli. Someone has to be sacrificed if Joe is retained, re-hired, whatever. Until Cashman makes his definitive statement, though, Guidry still has the job, no?
“Dave Eiland must have done something right. Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy and others have all gone through him.”
you flunk logic 101. all these guys were good before they ever saw eiland. i’m not against eiland if he’s good, but what is his pitching philosophy? does he even read books and keep up with the latest technology? a lot of pitching coaches don’t. who is this guy. if you have some details , it’d be nice if you’d share it. i ‘d really like to know what this guy is all about.
right now he is a total mystery man .
i don’t think the yankees should be hiring mystery men for their pitching coach.
i personally believe in throwing a lot . what’s his position on that? i believe that all pitchers should do to a biomechanical pitching intstitute like dr. andrews to be videotaped and monitored on a regular basis. what’s his position on that? i believe you shouldn’t try to teach chien ming wang too many pitches when he has an already devastaing sinker because throwing too many pitches can cause a sinkerball thrower to lose his sinker. what’s eiland’s position on that? does he even know how wang throws a sinker?
so where’s the info on eiland? i’m waiting to see it. so far all i’ve seen is that he’s an acceptable minor league pitching coach.
If he does leave, so what?
One player doesn’t mean much in baseball as good as that player is.
That would free up 35 million to go after other players specifically pitching.
We won titles with Charlie Hayes at 3b and no one in the lineup hitting over 40 homers.
Randy tell me Guidry’s philosophy? Mel Stot’s? Duncans? Mazzone’s?
It is organizational as much as a coach in regards to pitching.
randyl
Wang’s “devastating” sinkerball lost us 2 games in postseason. Maybe another pitch in his arsenal isn’t too bad.
lol
I definitely want A-Rod back. But I will also say the sky won’t be falling if he does opt out and ends up at another club. One player, no matter how great, doesn’t make a world-class ballclub. We can win without A-Rod, and I’d like to think the Yankees brass knows this. (Hence the “if he opts out, we’re out” stance.)
Yes, he’ll put fannies in the park. But c’mon — it’s the YANKEES! They haven’t had to worry about selling out games in nearly 13 years. If they get to the postseason without Alex on the team, there’s no doubt people will still be crying for tickets 10 minutes after they go on sale and sell out.
Jennifer – Bruce or Big Apple? Bruce was at MSG; Big Apple Circus is at Lincoln Center.
Would it really kill Wang to have a changeup?
I am happy to wait as long as it takes. If that means the Yankees are making good decisions for the team and not acting in haste, all the better.
However, why do so many say Joe Torre will be fired? How can one be fired when their contract expires? Every media outlet I have listened too says that Steinbrenner said they would fire Joe Torre. It’s not true, he said “I don’t think we bring him back.” How is that being fired?
Anyway, just a little pet peeve of mine. Here’s to hoping the Yankees make sound decisions.
The only thing that “fannies in the park” is winning.
That’s it.
They will sell 4mill seats with or without Hall of Famers as long as they win.
“If he does leave, so what?
One player doesn’t mean much in baseball as good as that player is.
That would free up 35 million to go after other players specifically pitching.
We won titles with Charlie Hayes at 3b and no one in the lineup hitting over 40 homers.”
This isn’t just a player, this is the best player in the game. Without him we don’t make the playoffs this year. I think we’d really struggle to be a playoff team without him next year.
Manny may not be pimping after his HRs with premeditation, intending to show anyone up. But the effect is the same; he intended to pimp and that’s enough for a well placed heater, up and in. As anyone who has attended our laborious discussion on hitting people versus making them move their feet knows, I’m not a big fan of hitting people. Dusting Manny and making him move his feet every now and then, however, is a great idea. Do it to Ortiz too.
Guidry? Leo Mazzone? Duncan? Petersen? Eliand?
Like any good coach, all they can do in the best case scenario is help you maximize your talent. They can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. A coach has to have something to work with. (see, e.g., Mazzone over the last two years. Bedard is a star in the making, but Danny Cabrera seems not to listen to Leo).
Did Eliand do wonders with Matt DeSalvo? Tyler Clippard? Chase “4 in a Row” Wright? It doesn’t seem like it. But give him or any other coach some quality young talent (Joba, Hughes, Kennedy) and you could argue that he helped them produce good results. At the same time, however, how much of that was the initial work of Nardi Contreras and, for whatever it’s worth, that fat rat Billy Connors?
Picking pitching coaches is tough, track record notwithstanding. You have to be sure you properly appraise the degree of raw talent he was working with and then see if you can zero in on his value added.
But sometimes it’s still better to be lucky than good. Mariano Rivera is a curious case, a failed starter until his bullpen mates taught him the cutter, or so the legend goes. It wasn’t the work of a pitching coach. So, in addition to everything else, luck plays its usual part.
Seattle lost Griffey, Johnson, and A-Rod and still won.
You can survive in baseball. This isn’t losing Michael Jordan or Larry Bird.
A-Rod is a a truly great player and carried us this year. But we will survive and still win without him.
Did he make Texas great? Did he make them a 500 team at least?>????
Didn’t think so.
I think he learned his lesson.
I think the idea that because we won titles with Charlie Hayes and Scott Brosius then we don’t need A-Rod might be one of the most ridiculuous things I’ve ever read. His production is irreplaceable. He’s easily the most important free agent for the Yankees this year with Posada a close second.
murphydog, You can’t try to bash Eiland because you don’t think some minor leaguers are good. They are minor leaguers for a reason. Just because he didn’t make DeSalvo a 15 game winner doesn’t mean he doesn’t know what he’s doing. If you’re going to use that tack you have to credit him for Horne and Marquez and Hughes.
Works both ways.
And Rivera wasn’t a failed starter. He could start today. But to maximize his talents he was better in short stints. I think his last game as a starter against Seattle he was dominant in 1995.
If you have watched Mo since ’95 and don’t think he’d win 15 a year starting you’re nuts.
* Jennifer – Bruce or Big Apple? Bruce was at MSG; Big Apple Circus is at Lincoln Center.
Damn I was going to stake out MSG waiting for Jorge to come in. I can fall out of my office and be there.
Bosco
October 18th, 2007 at 11:45 am
I think the idea that because we won titles with Charlie Hayes and Scott Brosius then we don’t need A-Rod might be one of the most ridiculuous things I’ve ever read.
How is that ridiculous???
Hayes and Boggs and Brosius won titles!
It’s a fact!!!
He’s a great player but if he leaves we will survive and probably prosper. The team will come together.
They will use that 30 mill on improving the whole club.
If he resigns, great,
If he doesn’t, they’ll be ok.
For all he’s done in his career he’s never won. Bonds has never won. Great players need great teams.
If he’s an idiot he’ll leave for the money.
One player, no matter how great, doesn’t make a baseball team.
You wouldn’t cancel the season if he ended up in SF or LA or even Boston.
“Wang’s “devastatingâ€? sinkerball lost us 2 games in postseason. Maybe another pitch in his arsenal isn’t too bad.
lol”
the problem with this blog is nitwits talking flippantly about stuff thay have no clue or experience about. wang’s sinker had been messed around all summer by the organization and guidry. i did not agree with it at all.
the fact he had lost his sinker by the time playoffs rolled around is exactly what i’m talking about. wang was a marginal prospect until neil allen taught him a new grip. wang was transformed overnight into an unhittable pitcher. what the yankees did was fire allen and then eventually try to teach wang new pitches. you think this is smart? i don’t .
i’m still waiting for someone to put out eiland’s thoughts on this. wang’s career depends on it.
i dont think anyone is arguing that ARod’s numbers would be near impossible to replace.
But, if you can get a solid player to plug in at 3B, not Wilson Betemit, but a ‘Atkins’ type player, you can make up for the difference in positional offensive production you lose with an upgrade in starting pitching that would decrease the number of runs you need to score.
you could also consider sliding Cano over to 3B and move him in the lineup as the run producer he will develop to be, and upgrading at 2B with a player like Orlando Hudson or Freddy Sanchez.
It would be great to have Alex back next year and for the next ten. But if he doesn’t the team will play on and do just as well.
Name me 3 Indian starters you would take over any yank.
Sizemore. Hafner.
That’s it.
It’s a team game ruled by pitching.
I’d rather have Carmona and CC and Betancourt and Perez than A-Rod.
I’m sure Wang will survive if eiland isn’t the second coming of Jesus Christ.
Pitching isn’t brain surgery.
Eric,
You hit the nail on the head. When the Yankees rest all their hopes on “one player”,they become like all the other ordinary teams in the league with their “star” players,. The Yankees have never, ever had a player that was better than the team.Arod fits in the system,but will never define the yankees,He’s an import that “contributes greatly” to our team.I hope he stays,if not oh well,next.
He’s “not” the team. Yankees will be great with or without him,they always have been!!!!
How did texas do with A-Rod?
I think Randy 1 is correct, being a pitching coach ( instructor )is not a science as much as it’s a philosphy, and it shoild be a organizational philosophy….Example…The Angels under the Bud Black & Mike Scicisoa is to teach at every level to learn to pitch inside….Leo Mazzone’s philosophey was to pitch down and hit the corners, which was very well utilized by Maddox and company until MLB decided to screw around withg the Strike Zone…2 balls width on the outside and one ball width on the inside was what the pitchers were given, but nothing above the waist…What works is what’s hot….Flavor of the month…I do see the Yanks moving Eiland up to the big club at some capacity, maybe bullpen coach…..Torre does come back as will # 13…IMO ???
“They will use that 30 mill on improving the whole club. ”
Who is available that we can spend this money on to improve the club?
No one.
“But, if you can get a solid player to plug in at 3B, not Wilson Betemit, but a ‘Atkins’ type player, you can make up for the difference in positional offensive production you lose with an upgrade in starting pitching that would decrease the number of runs you need to score.
you could also consider sliding Cano over to 3B and move him in the lineup as the run producer he will develop to be, and upgrading at 2B with a player like Orlando Hudson or Freddy Sanchez.”
That’s all well and good, but where are these other players going to come from? Who are are we going to trade to get them?
And it’s not $30 million in savings. The Yankees paid A-Rod like $17 or 18 million last year.
“Name me 3 Indian starters you would take over any yank.
Sizemore. Hafner.
That’s it.”
i’d take a garko
I’d take Victor Martinez over Posada, too.
“The Angels under the Bud Black & Mike Scicisoa is to teach at every level to learn to pitch inside”
bingo pat m. that’s a pitching philosphy that can be stated and understood. i’m not against eiland as much as i want to know what he’s all about. right now i haven’t been able to find anything on his philosophy at all.
i would hope the new yankee pitching coach has a wealth of experience and is fluent with the new biomechanical and performance technologies available. i realize this is probably a small pool of pitching coaches, but the yankees are the yankees. they should have the best pitching coach possible.
good point Doreen, the intention isn’t really to taunt the pitcher directly, but the entire free world, lol…
I’ve never wanted to punch someone in the face that I’ve never met more than, in specific order:
1. manny ramirez
2. julio lugo
3. fruity pebbles or coco crisp, whatever his name is
4. kevin yuko
1 and 4 because of their actions and mouths. 2 and 3 just because every time i see them in the batters box, something about the looks on their faces, i want to smash them both……
i actually like the joel sherman plan a lot..