An offer he had to refuse
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Oct 18, 2007 
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If you look at the percentages, the Yankees offered Joe Torre a 33-percent pay cut today.
Forget the incentives. Those are based on factors largely out of his control. I’d like to think I’m fairly good at what I do. If The Journal News offered me a 33-percent pay cut, I’d walk.
I imagine most of you would do the same. Don’t look at the money, look at the percentages. Sure, $5 million is a lot of dough. But to a hedge-fund manager, it’s chump change. Money is always relative.
Keep in mind, the Yankees did not fail this season. They had the third-most wins in their sport and made the playoffs. They were dead men walking in June and nearly won the division.
Torre didn’t deserve a parade. But a pay cut?
In the culture of the clubhouse, having a manager on a one-year contract who just took a cut would be emasculating. The Yankees – almost certainly – made Torre an offer they knew he could refuse.
“We just think it’s important to motivate people,” Randy Levine said.
Motivate people? This is a team that makes it policy not to include incentive clauses in player contracts. Now they have to motivate a 67-year-old manager who has won the second-most games in the history of the franchise?
They would have been better off just firing him. That you could respect. This? This was low rent.
Welcome to the Hank and Hal Era.
Rest In Retirement, Torre.
Donny Baseball..uh…hey.
Joe Torre had nothing left.
haha rir brent…who is this guy trey hillman…buster olney doesn’t stop talking about him…is he any good?
It’s really a sad day for yankees team and fans. But I’d like to say, Great decision, Joe! and thanks for giving us these wonderful 12 years. and now, I’d like to see who’d be the next NYY manager! Shoe me Mr. Lavine! Show us who and how you are going to motive!
“Motivate people”
my sources say Tampa wanted to hang a carrot in front of Torre’s hat.
As long as they keep ARod and Posada and Mo and the starting pitchers stay healthy they should be a strong team next year. So maybe they think they can break Mattingly in as the new manager since the team had loads of talent anyway, even with an inexperienced coach.
Hillman is very good. He won the Japanese WS in 2006.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trey_Hillman
I think anytime you put a microphone in front of Randy Levine, something stupid is going to come out of his mouth.
Pete, this is classic Steinbrenner business policy. He’s done it before with people within the organization.
They made him an offer they KNEW he would refuse so they can say, “We tried. We didn’t fire him”.
Not the way I would have done it but, let’s be honest, are you really surprised? How many “off the record” carpings about Torre have you heard from some of the people who were in that room today? Its been going on for the last 3-4 years.
I would have offered him a front office position, while removing him as manager. I thought it was time for a change.
The way they did it? Sure, its greasy but, THIS IS THE YANKEES!! Its how they do things.
They dumped on Yogi for God sake.
Hopefully, time heals all wounds and all the things Torre deserves (retired number, Monument Park, etc) takes place. He deserves that, and more, for what he did for the franchise.
I was incredulous when I saw the word “motivate.” Strange statement from Randy Levine. You’re getting the opportunity to manage the greatest and most storied franchise in sports, isn’t that motivation enough? I don’t think that any extra motivation is necessary. It’s not like Torre would need a kick in the butt to get himself going.
I’m with Pete on this one. The ominous last line in particular. What concerns me most immediately here is the position in which this puts the new manager.
He is now Mr. Second Choice and either held to the same standard of “championship or you’re out” (which is even more ridiculous for the new guy) or alternatively subject to lower expectations (reinforcing his identity as Mr. Second Choice). This does position him strongly to lead a clubhouse that is in transition.
they have to get donnie a good bench coach and good pitching coach… Bowa would make a good bench coach, they are throwing around Eiland and Contreras as pitching coach names… With all the kids coming up, Eiland might be the logical choice…
i hope joe does something he enjoys now… i want to hear his side of the story….
Torre will be able to keep his head high.
Yankee fans know that.
But, in all time, everything passes, and so to does the Torre Era.
The timing is odd. It’s my senior year of college. It’s like the last of my childhood has just left me.
And I’m a sucker for symbolism.
There is another way to look at percentages. He would still be making at least 40% more than the second highest paid manager.
Peter, if it was part of the Journal news’ agenda to have its sports section win a sportswriting award once every 4-5 years, and you were the editor and could not come thorugh, I think a pay cut would be in order. When CEO’s of major corporations dont show improvement, they are shown the door or offered less compensation, or have their compensation tied to the success of the company. It is irrelevant if the company is still making a ton of money. I wanted Joe back, but baseball is a business, and the manager should be judged on performance. it is irrelevant that they still made the playoffs, they didnt acheive growth, they did exactly what they did for the prior years- lost in occtober. To ask Joe to tie his salary to performance, is in my book, although not what i wanted, entirely fair.
Pete, I know you want us to look at the percentages but thats only because it helps your argument. I agree that a 33% cut is big in percentage terms but you leave out the fact that it would still leave Torre as the highest paid manager in baseball by far. And he did fail. This is a team that expects to win titles every year. For the 7th year in a row they didnt and worse for the 3rd year in a row they didnt get out of the first round. Thats important because not only did they not win these last 3 years but the team also wasnt able to sell out those ALCS and World Series games which are huge money makers. I think they should have just offered Joe this deal last week and been done with it but lets not make Torre about to be a martyr in all of this.
Oti – Pete only likes percentages some of the time.
At the end of the day, he was likely overpaid to begin with. Is he rally twice as good a manager as the second best manager?
Still, a pay cut is a pay cut. And a 1 year deal is a vote of no confidence. They’ll have to give his successor at least 2 years (although at a lower amount).
Man Pete – doubt your invited to the Steinbrenner X-Mas party this year.
Pete: When does the Torre sucking up stop?
If the Journal News offered you a 33% cut, but you would still be making nearly 50% more than the next highest paid writer, do you really think you’d walk? Give me a break.
Why is that players should be expected to take pay cuts when their performance declines, but managers shouldn’t? Torre was paid $7mn to win World Series. The team hasn’t won on in 7 years. What’s wrong with being rewarded after the fact instead of before?
Finally, how can you say the incentives would be beyond Torre’s control? We are talking about winning games!! That’s absurd.
Give it a rest Pete…there is no need to suck-up to Joe anymore.
Pete – Has anyone heard what Torre thought we were going to offer him when he got on the plane to Tampa? Why did he go down if he wasnt going to accept it? Did they change the terms on him?
Yeah I know a 33 percent paycut is good reason to leave your job. But, Pete, you would leave your job knowing that you could do better elsewhere.
But can Joe Torre really do better than 5 million base salary elsewhere? I don’t think so. Maybe the personal insult was enough for rejection and the money is a secondary factor.
the more i think about this the more i see how the yankees look like the biggest idiots here.
i am pretty sure cashman hated offering this deal, but i’m really happy torre refused.
Uhhhh, Pete. Be honest. A lot of reporters opinions can’t be trusted because Torre was a good guy. I understand the loyalty. But come on. This team lacked motivation. The way they played down the stretch was the way they should have played all year. How many losses from the 21-29 start were 2-1 1-0 games. More than a few. The young pitching at the start wasn’t great. But the left handed hitters weren’t hitting either.
EITHER HE WINS GAMES OR PLAYERS DO. CHOOSE ONE.
There’s no good way to let someone go. There’s only unpleasant and more-unpleasant. I remember George talking about Buck Showalter’s “little family.” That was bad. Again, Joe came in with many fans and many in the media proclaiming him a permanent loser. Obviously, things worked out fairly well.
Only the parties involved know how things actually went down. Joe hasn’t spoken yet, so we don’t know his end of it (no reason to think he won’t be truthful).
I hope the next Yankee manager is someone well-respected, and who can inspire us all next year. And who gets some better pitchers.
Guess they really didn’t want him around, but tried to save face with the public. We’re not stupid tho – we can see through that.
All of that aside, I think there are many many better in-game managers than Joe Torre. His handling of the bullpen has been legendarily bad. Think of all the careers ruined – Quantrill, Gordon, Proctor, Sturtze, Villone, Vizcaino, and, if Cashman hadn’t stepped in, maybe Chamberlain…
It’s a sad day, and the end of an era. It could have been handled better. But it’s time to move on. We’ll miss you Joe, but the Yankees are bigger than any one man, be it a player or manager (you listening A-Rod?)…
Randy Levine is a toad.
Definitely a sad day in Yankeeland. I wonder how many “Yankee fans” (circa 2000) are going to live with the reality that a team doesn’t necessarily make the postseason every year.
I just want to say that I was totally for firing torre, pretty much since last year. But now when i look at it my reasons then were unjust, mostly i blamed him for his “failures”, but to tell you the truth this was a really fun season to watch, and i dont consider it a failure. Sure they didnt win, but they didnt have much of a rotation, but next year everyone will get better so they can become better. But back to torre, i realize after this season, i didnt want to fire torre for his failure, i wanted him to go because of his bullpen management of the past. Maybe its not a big deal to some of you but torre has a way of ruining relievers, through overuse such as quantrill, villone, sturtze, gordon, vizicaino (first few weeks). I guess sometimes i disagree with his bullpen use and how i personally felt that torre disrespected moose in game 4 by starting wang. I personally did not feel wang would come back, and really torre should have trusted or given moose a chance, rather than panicking and going with wang. But i think torre was at his best when this team was at its worst talent. Perhaps during the teams richest years of salary, the team was good, but torre wasnt as good, but with the yankees during the dynasty torre was just great. So i wish torre the best of luck and hopefully the yankees hire somebody who can manage a bullpen.
Peter,
Your blog has jumped the shark. I, unlike you and other Red Sox fans, am looking forward to the Hank and Hal era, if it means smart, well-thought-out decisions such as this.
Please move back to Boston.
Joe Torre is a great guy. He is charming and engaging. He is like your gradfather…you want to make him proud. I am sure that if I spent a lot of time with him, I’d go out of my way to offer excuses for him as well. The NY media has been mesmerized by Joe’s charm…Pete is no different. I don’t hold that against them, but please don’t try to claim objectivity on the matter.
It’s probably already been said but $5 million dollars is still well more than any other manager in baseball. Yes it was a 33% pay cut but there is no way that torre gets an offer even as rich as the yankees $5 million plus incentives from any other team in baseball.
Hey Joe, good luck managing for 6 million in Kansas City.
Get used to the paycut. You won’t sniff that kind of money anywhere else.
I predict that Girardi will be the next manager. For the following reasons:
1. After the 2005 regular season, Girardi was named the manager of the Florida Marlins, replacing departed manager Jack McKeon. His first notable action as manager was to prohibit facial hair, which is a policy similar to that of George Steinbrenner, owner of the New York Yankees .
2.Communicates well with players . Example: In February 2007, Philadelphia Phillies pitcher Jon Lieber disclosed that Joe Girardi had called him during the 2006 season to tell him that the Marlins hitters had said all of Lieber’s pitches “looked flat.” Lieber began pitching better soon after that conversation, and later that season twice led the Phillies to victory over Girardi’s Marlins. Girardi maintains that he merely gave encouragement to Lieber, not specific pitching advice. Girardi and Lieber played together for the Chicago Cubs in the early 2000s.
3. In June 2007, Girardi was interviewed for the Orioles vacant managerial position (left vacant by the firing of Sam Perlozzo). On June 21, Girardi’s agent informed news outlets that Girardi would be passing on the Orioles offer to become their next manager. Many opine that Girardi will be the next Yankees manager. Girardi is reportedly a candidate to become the next manager of the Kansas City Royals in 2008. Do you think Girardi passed on a team with great potential like the Orioles to coach the Royals? It doesn’t seem likely.
4. As a first-time manager for the Marlins, Girardi guided the team into a surprising wild card contention (finishing with a 78-84 record) even though the team had the lowest payroll in Major League Baseball [2], at approximately $14 million for 2006. Think of what he could do with the Yankees.
5. Girardi knows something, that is why he isn’t talking. http://www.fannation.com/truth.....view/24433
6. Do you really think players would stay for Mattingly? That guy’s a sped. Girardi is a people person who definitely has report with the veterans we are trying to keep, such as pettite, mo rivera, and posada. Remember that Girardi trained Posada.
7. Girardi has more experience than Mattingly.
I flat out do not agree with you on this one pete…you are oversimplifing the situation
When players fail to achieve the goals they are hired to do under their current contracts, they are usually offered a lesser contract. Why should a manager be any different when he does the same?
Also Pete it seems you’re giving Torre all of the credit for the teams’ successes over the past few years and none of the blame for the failures.
You can’t have it both ways. Either the manager affects results or he does not.
btw – i can’t believe the coverage of this on espn. oh yeah, we still have playoff baseball to play tonight.
with a potential cleveland/colorado world series i’m guess i shouldn’t be surprised
Here here on the Hal and Hank era. If it means accountability than I am all for it.
For any real Yankees fan this is a very sad day. Like him or not as a manager, but respect the man for who is and the way he represented our team. It wasn’t that long before the Joe Torre era began the Yankees were the laughingstock of baseball. Remember Dallas Green or Stump Merrill?
I wouldnt mind seeing Larry Bowa as the new manager. The players know him, they seem to respect him and he sure as heck won’t stand for them not putting out a full effort. The Yankees did look lethargic at times,especially during their losing streaks.
A real pay cut is when people earning $16 an hour get downsized out of jobs and then in order to get work they have to take jobs at $11 or $12 an hour.
$5 Million? Come back to reality. Please. Especially when that $5 million is still MORE THAN ANY OTHER MANAGER.
The offer was fair. Joe refused it.
I’m just coming up to speed on today happenings. Can someone answer the following? –
1. What are Torre’s plans (has he said)?
2. If Torre is planning on managing another team, is there ANY chance he will get an offer for more than what the Yankees were offering?
3. Was there any official word on who the Yankees will hire as manager and/or when that decision might come down?
My reaction: I’m not happy but the Torre era has obviously been nearing its end for some time. I don’t think the offer they made him was exactly a slap in the face. In fiving him $7.5 million this year, the Yankees essentially payed Torre like a player, and, as sometimes happens with players’ deals, when his contract was up, they put a lower price tag on his services. Not sure it is wise to let him go, but I don’t find it offensive or insulting for a team to approach the situation in this fashion.
_When CEO’s of major corporations dont show improvement, they are shown the door or offered less compensation, or have their compensation tied to the success of the company._
that’s a myth.
this is what usually happens, the strike price of their stock options are backdated and reset (“fixed”)and they receive hundred million dollar golden parachutes for running the stock price into the ground.
http://tinyurl.com/2ahfkh
I respect Torre for the late nineties, but I have wanted him and his bonehead decisions gone for a couple of years. Trey Hillman for manager 08!
Pete, similar views as yours from ESPN:
Philips, Kruk & co are saying “it’s obviously a PR spin, there was no negotiation, that they did not want him back.” They said the Yankees management will have a lot of explaining to do to fans and veteran players who know better than the PR spin.
I don’t always agree with these guys but I’m with them/you on this one.
SJ44 is right on the money when he says, in essence, this is the Yankees being the Yankees.
They have a long history of treating their employees (at all levels) like dogs, unapologetically. No one is going to be fooled by the idiocy of the “offer” to Torre. This is a firing.
The difference between this employee and all the others is that Torre elevated the image of the Yankees with his class and dignity, something otherwise unknown before, during and after the “Torre era.”
The sad part about this day is that all Yankee fans know that the image that has become the Yankees, is now gone.
We were all spoiled by this heretofore incomprehensible image of the NYY. The shine is now off, and the projection of class and dignity is over, period.
They will survive, baseball-wise. The Yankees have always had the resources to field the best teams, from the 1920s through the 1960s, and then again after Steinbrenner’s group purchased it in 1973. However, I think the suits have grossly underestimated the value (in tangible, i.e., dollars, and intangible, benefits) of this enhanced image that Torre brought to the organization.
They will soon find out that the old saying, “you can’t shine s*it”, has never been more true.
OK Pete…if you were offered a salary 50% higher than every other sportswriter in NY you’d turn it down. OK.
But don’t worry Pete…I don’t think you’ll ever have to face that dilemma – especially if you are unable to offer a more sophisticated analysis than you have here.
More entires like they were written by a 7 year old and your blog is about to jump the shark.
hey drive 4-5, I am a real Yankee fan. The sad day was last Sunday night. Today is a fresh begining.
Your post should have read:
“For any Yankee fan who still thinks Brosuis and Knoblach should play the infield, and Paul O’neill can get around on a fastball, this is a sad day.
Check yourself. 12 years is too long to manage and keep your players ear. He mishandled A-Rod’s first three years. Look at what A-Rod was able to do. If Torre was so great at pushing all the right buttons, why did he wait till this year to do it.
Larry Bowa is a tremendous baseball man. The problem with him is that he gets so hyper and worked-up about things, that after a while he loses his audience (the team). My wife’s family lives in Philadelphia, and when Bowa managed the Phils he would rant and rave at so much that after a while everyone within earshot tuned him out, and he lost the clubhouse.
I think the team will do their search, and then make Donnie an offer that he CAN’T refuse. They wouldn’t want to be turned down twice.
Pete you nailed it 100%. This thing of winning the world series every year is very unrealistic. To ask anybody who has been extremely successful at what they do to take a pay cut is absurd.Give Joe the seven million he deserves. Whats 2 more million to the Yankees, it’s peanuts. George wipes with 2 million. This does not look good for the Yankees
The sad part about this day is that all Yankee fans know that the image that has become the Yankees, is now gone.
We were all spoiled by this heretofore incomprehensible image of the NYY. The shine is now off, and the projection of class and dignity is over, period.
In a word….HUH?
See how Casey Stengel was let go in 1960.
Abraham reaches new levels of petulance with this column. Insult for Torre to make 50% more tha Piniella or Cox? 250% more than Leyland? Torre and his agent certainly used his post season success to sell the Yankees on why he was worth a premium salary. Now that he has lost 13 out of 17 post season games all of a sudden Torre supporters like Mike Francesa are telling us “the playoffs are a crapshoot”?? They weren’t saying that a few years ago when they were ridiculing the Oakland A’s for losing playoff series.
The Yankees under George have historically pissed away great amounts of money on contracts. Dave Collins, Roy Smalley, Danny Tartabull. Perhaps this is Hank and Hal’s first step to restoring fiscal sanity to the Yankees. The Yankees would be in better shape if they hadn’t overpaid for Jason Juicehead (what was the second best offer he had?) and a contract extension for aging injury prone Randy Johnson.
There is a big difference in a 35% pay cut between a manager and real world jobs. I am going out on a limb and guess sports writers don’t make $7.5 million. Abraham’s analogy is poor.
No one knows but Joe Torre, and perhaps he’ll share his reasoning, but I’m in the camp that thinks it wasn’t the money so much as the one-year deal. Sure, the second year would automatically kick in if he got the team to the World Series, but otherwise, he’d have to go through these shenanigans yet again. Who the heck can deal with that year in and year out. And you know, maybe he himself could, but his family could not. Days of reporters camped out in front of your home waiting and salivating for the scoop.
Great post Pete!
If the Yankees had guts, they should have just told him they wanted to move in a different direction. No disrespect in doing that way. They did it the low rent way.
Based on Randy Levine’s comments, are the Yankees going to offer ARod 18 million per year with post season incentives of 10 million dollars???
“The sad part about this day is that all Yankee fans know that the image that has become the Yankees, is now gone.
We were all spoiled by this heretofore incomprehensible image of the NYY. The shine is now off, and the projection of class and dignity is over, period.
In a word….HUH?
See how Casey Stengel was let go in 1960.”
You just contradicted yourself, dummy. If it was gone in 1960, then how could it be lost again in 2007?
Bandwagon fans such as yourself simply do not want to adjust to watching a new manager come out of the dugout to make pitching changes. Get over it. The Torre era had to end someway- it ended by Torre turning down an offer to continue managing as the highest payed manager in the game. Last time a Yankee manager turned down an offer was 95. The offer was ridiculed by the media. Then Torre was hired. What happened then.
Oh, also, you mentioned Casey Stengal in 1960…how’d 1961 turn out?
You should probably think before you write. Or throw your computer out a window.
Pete, If the J-N offered you a 33% paycut you’d still be overpaid.
Bryan said: “Hey Joe, good luck managing for 6 million in Kansas City.”
Joe knows very well that won’t happen. He’s been around for 12 yrs you don’t think he knows the market? But I won’t be surprised if Joe goes to KC for $2 mill. That will be his last “shove it” to George and I’m all for it.
Pete, whatever you make its probably too much…you are not that good at what you do.
torre should have been gone two years ago…good riddance!
Pete’s worth his salary for his Springsteen commentary alone!
That was without a doubt a fair deal
Everyone’s entitled to their opinion, but $5M is not an insult especially when he would have the opportunity to make more than he did this year. An insult would’ve been matching Pinella’s pay.
The real insult was the sh!& that came out of George’s mouth when his team was down 2-0. He treated Joe like a an animal he was trying to tame. Why would you want to work for a boss that repeatedly embarrasses you in times of crises?
I predict Joe will go work for Fox and survey the landscape in a year.
Welcome to the Hank and Hal Era.
Because George would never do anything like this…..
We’ll miss you Mr. Torre!
Bottom line, it was time for a change.
Sure it could and maybe should have been handled better, but chances were however it played out someone was gonna look bad.
It’s time to move on. Yeah, I’m nervous about what’s gonna happen, but we’ll just have to wait and see.
Torre is not the only man in the world who can manage a team. There are guys out there who can do as well or maybe better. Whether we get one of them who knows. But who ever knows how a new manager/coach in any sport is gonna do.
Let’s let it all play out. Im scared and excited at the same time.
what I find weird is this:
If the front office was so aggravated that Joe was making 2 1/2 times amount then the next highest paid manager (Cox at $3 million), why did they agree to that amount in the first place?
F-That, he would be making %40 more than any other manager, as somebody else pointed out. Percentages my arse, I can see that when you are making 50 grand and lose %33 but not 5 million plus incentives. I’m sure he isn’t losing his house over this %33. Obviously he’s had it and we need to move on and if players are gonna get whiny about who the manager is then I say a fond farewell to them too.
You know what? The more I read about Trey Hillman the more I like him. He sounds like the kind of guy that leads by example and works hard with the players.
Girardi seems to strict and Mattingly doesn’t have enough experience.
He gave us over the last 7 years 100 percent less championships, so w.e.
Why all the personal swipes at Pete here? Disagree if you want. But there are other blogs out there. I read this one because it’s generally more civil and thoughtful than others. If you are just looking to insult Pete and other responders, you’ve jumped your own personal shark long ago.
I thought Joe still had a personal services contract (or something like that) for after he was done managing the team. Does anyone know anything about that?
this is a bad bad day guys.
It is a known fact that levine and joe never got fully along, and this was their way of kinda pushing joe out. Now i still think their is a chance joe is the manager next year, joe is playing hard ball in this one and will hold out for what he feels he deserves, and rightfully so. I dont necesarily see it as a pay cut being the biggest issue, but rather them embarrasing him by saying that he needs to be motivated. Joe works as hard as anyone and certainly accepts responsibility when things dont go right for the team, he doesnt need motivation, and especially nmot money. $3 million in incentives is alot of money to anyone, but to a guy that has made like $40 or so in the last 12 years, its not the biggest of deals, so the money wouldnt be the biggest motivating factor. Joe wants to win, and he wants to win as a yankee, but he wont let ownserhip try to embarass him like this.
Now, i do wish joe had taken the offer, and is our manager next year, not because he is owed this respect for everything he has accomplished, but for the simple fact that he is the best man for the job in 2008.
On to the future, cashman and levine didnt bring up mattingly once during this call. In fact Cashman said there will be some names on the list that will surprise us. Is this simply a fact that they havent spoken to Don yet? Or is it purely that they dont think he is ready to take the reigns, which in my opinion he isnt. Who is our next manager? Girardi would be my guess, but at this point I truly cant speculate and will hold out that the Yankees decide to cave, make Joe and offer of $15 mil for 2 years and let everyone be happy.
Do we even want to think about what this may do to Jorge and Mo? Alex will stay if the money is right, but would we be surprisedif Jorge and Mo both leave together for big money somewhere else and are upset as to how Joe was treated? I guess we wil jsut have to pray this doesnt happen.
Like I’ve said before, Torre was known as a player’s manager. He was soft-spoken and gentle with the players. In sports, franchises hire someone after that who changes the culture, following the gentle manager with a manager who is fiery, strict, and much more emotional. If the Yankees follow that type of protocol, then Girardi is the guy. Girardi would definitely change the culture and bring much more fire and intensity than Torre. I’m not saying that he would do a better job by any means, I’m just saying that the two are very different in the ways that they go about things.
I didn’t contradict myself, Charlie.
I was responding to someone else.
See how Stengel was let go. And yeah, as someone else wrote, 1961 wasn’t too bad, was it?
My problem isn’t the with money, it is with the years. Why should he sign a one year deal. He is a lame duck again. What would have happened if he got off to another poor start? Would they be ready to fire him than? At least with 2 years you don’t have to worry about that.
2/10 would have been fair.
Girardi is the kind of guy that would have the veteran in rebellion. The Yankees didn’t fail because they weren’t trying. THey failed because they weren’t good enough.
and for the record, Charlie, I was criticizing the other guy.
I am also critical of Torre for turning down a very fair offer.
Pete I agree with you 100%. Dead right.
Dr. Acula said: “that’s a myth.
this is what usually happens, the strike price of their stock options are backdated and reset (“fixedâ€?)and they receive hundred million dollar golden parachutes for running the stock price into the ground.”
Bingo. And you can also look up plenty of articles detailing cases in which CEO’s of companies that were losing money got hefty bonuses at the end of the year. Crazy.
I’m done reading this blog. Pete’s bias is getting really annoying. Instead of just reporting the news, you try to twist everything.
Joe G would tailor his managing style to fit his team.
I have to disaggre with you on this one,this year was not a success.
Do you remember the preformance the last few years in the post season?
And it’s never any body’s fault.
This team is given the best of everthing the highest pay,the best working enviroment,the best fans and still their post season is unacceptable.
I’m not angry at the fact that they lost in the post season,it is the way they lost.
I think we need a big change.
And for all you people that say Big George is a dope,he has done pretty well in business and withe the Yankees.
how could he be “fired” when he had no contract?
I agree with Jennifer.
Dr. Acula…the guy who gave the original deal to Torre was Steinbrenner’s soon-to-be-ex-son-in-law Steve Swindal, who isn’t with the front office anymore.
Pete-
You gave the employees perspective, here is the Employer’s perspective. The mission statement at the beginning of the year is “Win the World Series” not, “make the playoffs”. Torre has done a tremendous job of managing this team in the regular season. We will pay you 5 million dollars to basically do what you have been doing. We know its a paycut, but you are still the most well compensated manager in Baseball in terms of salary and talent. For each round of the playoffs you reach, You will get a one million dollar bonus. So if you win the world series, you will actually get a raise.
Torre did not deserve to be fired, but he definately did not deserve the money he was getting…
I am sorry I love Joe, but two more years would have been torturous. That team needs a breath of fresh air, fresh pitching, new players, new manager.
“I’m done reading this blog. Pete’s bias is getting really annoying. Instead of just reporting the news, you try to twist everything”.
NJ,
Pete is a beat writer for the Jouyrnal News. This is a blog!!! Blogs are for his opinion!!!!!!!!!!!!
Joe, I never said he couldn’t offer an opinion. All I said is that his bias is getting annoying and he twists almost every post.
Gracias, Wolf
the phonies always scream rugged individualism and Darwinism, but the bubble pops, they cry for bailouts and safety nets.
What a joke you are, Peter.
So in this day and age, offering a more than fair contract (that *still* would have made him the highest paid manager in the sport…even without the incentives) to a manager who’s a) overseen the worst postseason collapse in history, and b) won exactly 4 playoff games in the subsequent 3 years while losing every series deserves to have a lifetime contract?
I wish you were my boss. Then I could suck at my job for as long as I wanted to with no fear of repercussions. The notion that Torre somehow got shafted here is an utter joke, and why am I not surprised that you’re leading the parade.
You should organize a candlelight vigil for your fallen hero.
Pete: Grow up. Joe was offered the second highest salary for a manager in history, and the highest of any other manager today. Incentives (fair ones, too) would have boosted it even higher.
You can talk all you want about how the pitching staff was out of Joe’s control, but check out the teams still in the playoffs: Colorado has Josh Fogg in the rotation, Cleveland has Byrd and Westbrook. Joe has had more than enough pitching and hasn’t gotten the most out of it. Oh, and he also has an extraordinary batting order, which has uncharacteristically fallen asleep in the playoffs the last three seasons. Maybe he hasn’t motivated them well enough. Why do they get off to slow starts each year? This is a move that had to be made.
Jennifer –
Because of the respect that the players have (had) (have) for Torre, I don’t think he would ever be a lame duck in their eyes, meaning he would not lose authority in the clubhouse because he was on a one-year contract. But I look at the Braves manager and see that he has had virtually the same results as Joe Torre has had in the past few years (last year and this year notwithstanding), and his job is not in jeopardy. Granted, he is not paid 7.5 mil and the Atlanta Braves do not have the same mandate, nor do they have the same beast (fans) to feed each year. The more championships we get here, the more we want. I think Torre realized that while he still has the support of the players and most of the fans, he no longer as the support of the organization, and under those circumstances, how can you work that way?
The offer was absolutely NOT fair. It was purposeful and sleezy. The new ‘team Yankee’ made an offer they knew Joe would refuse. They are assuming that their poor sucker middle class fans will be so blinded by the sound of 5 million dollars that it’ll make them look good and Joe look greedy. And at least half of you are falling for it and proving them right. Pete is correct – do not get hung up on the dollars – all of these people make more money than most of us can even imagine. So, it isn’t about the money. I would have more respect for them if they hadn’t tried to play coy and instead had just been courageous enough to simply stand up and say they wanted a change and take the fallout. They needed to try and brainwash the fans though -for fear you’ll take your spending money elsewhere. If this is the new regime – I’m worried about a lot more than just who will be the next manager.
I disagree. If the Yankees thought that the old contract was a mistake (too high) a salary, why should “respect” dictate that they make another mistake?
Mike S.
Sorry, I thought the material you were responding to was your own.
Steve Somers just read a statement from Scott Boras basically saying it was a offer Torre had to refuse (& was designed that way) – if he had taken it – his players would have known Torre was giving in to Steinbreener & Co.
Jesus Pete when did you become an executive compensation consultant? I couldn’t disagree with you more on this. Performance-based compensation is common, and smart, and if I made you an offer with lower base pay but an opportunity to earn more than you did last year, and you told me I was asking you to take a 33% pay cut I would fire you on the spot for terrible math skills. Torre was given the chance to earn $8MM.
The Yankees may not have used performance-related pay clauses in the past, but maybe smart comp packages are part of the Hank and Hal era. Whatever the case, I think it’s BS for you to assert that this offer was designed to be rejected.
I will bet my next paycheck that Andy, Mo and Posada don’t come back. They will, at the very least wait to see who the new Manager is.
Peter,
If Randy Levine has another presser, ask him if he has an incentive based contract.
Torre was the highest paid manager in baseball by a longshot, and still would have remained highest paid under the terms of this deal.
There were plenty of injuries this year that lead to the bad start…but he has not adjusted his style in ten years and has not gotten this team as far as it could go the last few seasons.
That having been said, he could have accepted this deal. It wasn’t a total slap in the face..not by a longshot.
The mob is getting restless Pete, but they do have a point…you are coming across as a bit of a Torre sycophant. Or, perhaps you’re just bating everybody on to keep the conversation going…you’re a shrewd one Abraham.
The money has very little to do with it. It was the one year offer that was the deal breaker.
How can you say, “forget the incentives.” The Yankees on paper will most likely have the best team in the league next year, or at least very close. It is likely they will make the playoffs and Joe will get some of that money. He’s also 68 and has made a lot of money, and $5 is more than any other manager.
In addition, it’s ludicrous to say, “He took a team that after 50 games was a mess and turned them around.” Whether or not that is true, you can’t give him credit for turning the team around but not blame for the team being in shambles in the first place. In my opinion he had little to do with either situation, the early struggles were due to injuries and bad luck and the later success due to health and some good luck.
The Yankees did not treat Torre badly. He has made A LOT of money, way more than any other manager, isn’t that enough “respect”. Why should they have rushed their decision for the sake of Torre’s feelings? I thought Torre was so calm and impervious to the media and this kind of stuff, now you’re worried his feelings are hurt? It’s absurd.
This was a cunning move by the Yanks, now they can tell the free agents and the fans they tried to retain Torre and he left, and they got rid of a manager well past his prime, stuck in his ways. Read Bill James’ work on managers, they perform best when they are new on the job and *are not extremely loyal to veteran players* (Damon to the DL early in the season, Matsui to the bench at the end of the season/playoffs, Jeter to the bench to rest his knee, sending an obviously injured Rocket out, etc.). In addition older managers are more resistant to change in strategy (bunting, not correctly evaluating OBP, refusing to use Mo on the road in a tie game during the 9th or extra innings).
A fresh start is the best thing that could have happened. Bring on Girardi.
I also disagree that the Yankees made an offer they “knew” Joe would refuse. Torre could have accepted the deal. And then they would have had to have been prepared to have him as their manager. I think they were lukewarm about wanting him back, but did not really want to get rid of him either. Perhaps they fooled themselves into thinking this was a good deal for both sides. It’s not outside the realm of possibility.
I’ll be interested to see what happens next year when the yankees get off to a slow start under their new manager.
I agree and disagree with pete here.
On one hand, it would have been lame to bring torre all the way down to tampa to take a paycut.
I definitely think it was their way of firing him but not really firing him. They could have tendered him that offer on the phone while he was in NY and they knew what the response would be. Bringing him down to FLA. was a media spectacle to save face. Do you guys think torre knew he was going to be offered a paycut when he got on the plane to go down to tampa? I sure don’t.
That being said, I think the yankees do need to turn the page for a lot of reasons (I could write all night on that one). But any yankee fan who thinks the next manager (whoever it is) will just step in and win a world series, is kidding themselves.
Apology accepted, Charlie. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Ryan, I couldn’t have written it better myself. Nice job.
The Yanks did this to Casey in 1960. Before that they made a nasty job of getting rid of Scooter. And what Big Stein did to Yogi (1985) is in my mind pretty unforgiveable.
So this is, unfortunately, also part of Yankees history.
I have no idea if Pete’s analysis is correct, but it certainly sounds about right. The Yanks thought they had found a way to get rid of Torre and make it look like it was Joe’s decision. He had to know this might be coming. And other blogs have written about it before today.
The difference in this day and age is the Internet. Waaaay too many smart people will dissect this decision and if the consensus is that they screwed over Joe Torre, then Hank and Hal just got off on the wrong foot with Yankees fans. Maybe they don’t care. If a new manager comes in that people love (Mattingly?) and they are able to keep Mo, Jorge, Andy and A-Rod, I will bet that this is somewhat forgiven. But not forgotten. What Joe says next will be critical to how this decision is remembered.
i wanted Torre back and was surprised they made an offer.
that he turned down 5 million clams to manage, with more in incentives said alot
thats a fair offer for a manager that hasnt taken a team to the WS in nearly a decade.
im thankful for the fresh start we are about to get. i refuse to accept spin that torre leaving is the end of the world. its sad, but we move on.
Just to clarify, Joe should have sent Damon to the DL early in the season, should have benched Matsui during the end of the season to rest for the postseason (or at least have benched him in the postseason), should have forced Jeter to rest his bum knee more, and should not have let Rocket out there when he was obviously hurt.
In regards to the strategy, older managers believe more in “small ball”, bunting, stealing, hit and runs, and other tactics that have been proven to be counterproductive. They also fail to correctly evaluate the importance of OBP. Oh and not using Mo in the bottom of the 9th or in extra innings on the road is a huge flaw.
Younger managers are more open to change.
Jeff, I read that it was Torre’s idea to go to Tampa. On the Yankee website, and also I think Buster Olney just said that on ESPN. Cashman told him what the basic parameters of the offer would be, and asked Torre what he was going to do. Torre told Cashman he didn’t know.
Michael is talking on ESPN…sound bits:
“I was surprised they went into specific details, telling the world this is how much money turned down. I think it was a brilliant PR stroke, to try to turn some of the city against Torre.”
“I think Alex rodriguez will go where he’ll make the most money”
“[the next manager] could come from Don Mattingly, Joe Girardi, wild card could be Bobby Valentine…I believe that Mattingly would be the favorite.”
Pete,
If The Journal News had asked you for the last seven years to get an indepth interview with “Big Stein” and you failed to produce it but still produced some wonderful articles and then decided this year they were going to offer you a new contract with 33-percent pay cut because you still hadn’t produced what you were supposed to produce you would not walk to sign that contract you would run ! Inevitably you know how good you are and either you think you can get the job done or you can’t. If you can’t then you walk !
Michael Kay is talking on ESPN…sound bits:
“I was surprised they went into specific details, telling the world this is how much money turned down. I think it was a brilliant PR stroke, to try to turn some of the city against Torre.”
“I think Alex rodriguez will go where he’ll make the most money”
“[the next manager] could come from Don Mattingly, Joe Girardi, wild card could be Bobby Valentine…I believe that Mattingly would be the favorite.”
Scott Boras should keep his stupid trap shut.
Dear Miss Paulie and all others worried about Andy,Mo and Posada.
What have they done in the post season in the last 4 years?
They have been paid very well for their past post season preformances when the Yankees were preforming well in the post season.
And now you want to give them all a raise?
Lets stop living on past glory and move on to better days.
Havn’t we learned our lesson K Brown,J Jeambi,C Pavarno etc,etc,etc.
Pete, you’re coming off as a phony who talks out of both sides of your mouth. An hour before you posted this, you had this to say:
Don’t believe me? Believe the Yankees. Torre was the man they wanted as manager. Whoever gets hired now is the second choice. Good start for that guy.
What happened? All the whining about how little was going on, you’d think you’d have prepared some kind of cohesive analysis, rather than spouting off two contrary takes in less than two hours. This blog has gotten absurd, as you’ve clearly taken to bashing some and petting those you have an interest in or liking for–like Wang. Failures don’t sell many books, so you like to keep looking to his win total and declaring him the ace. It’s frustrating to read. So I’ll stop reading, as I’m sure you’d recommend. But keep sucking up to Torre, crediting him for their triumphant return after being however many games down, but never considering that his shortcomings contributed to their poor record early on. The luck of needing Hughes and Joba, and Damon’s incompetence leading to Melky in center were all contributory factors in the teams resurgence. And none were planned by Joe. That being clear, every win’s credit still goes to Joe, every loss to a figment. Just absurd; your skill is not in analysis, as you’ve shown with these last two posts. Just take both positions, that way you can’t be wrong. You should find that beach–since this job’s just a job to you–and start writing the book.
People keep saying “it’s not the money…it’s the years…”
Bullcrap…they gave him an option year. If he’d managed the team to the playoffs (which would have raised his salary to 6 million) and won even one round in the playoffs, do you think the Yankees would have fired him, or not picked up his option? Not a chance. He would have been back for 2009.
The bottom line is that Torre’s performance since 2002 has been spotty at best. He should have been fired after his team tanked in 2004 (and some argue after putting Jeff Weaver in a WS game in 2003 with Mariano rotting in the bullpen). The fact that he survived as long as he did, *and still* got another contract offer today is staggering.
He didn’t take the offer. So be it. Move on. Press the reset button. Get over it.
If Mo, Jorge, and Andy leave —-so be it– Look at there ages, they have to leave some time They can be replaced-every team looses players The Yankees with survive
I agree, the offer they made Joe was fair. They didn’t screw him over at all. And I think it is sensationalization to say that Mo, Andy & Jorge are highly likely to walk now. Mo’s public statements were in the vein of wanting the Yankees to bring Joe back…well they TRIED to bring him back. He refused and that’s on him. It wasn’t a disrespectful offer. (However, if they were to offer Mo less than he currently makes, THAT would be disrespectful, but there is a difference. Mo gets important outs, Torre doesn’t.)
To me the most important part of this news is definitely how it affects the negotiations with our FAs. It has been said on this board before that his contract included 6 (?) yrs in a consultancy position once his managerial tenure was up. That’s correct, right?
Cause if it is, and Joe just goes up into the front office or even into the broadcast booth (fire Waldman, hire him!) then I’m sure Mo, Jorge, etc. would stay. If he goes and manages another team that’s when I would start getting nervous that at least one of him would ‘follow’ him over there.
I will be happy to see a new manager in the dugout (and I still hope it’s Girardi) but I would NOT be happy to see a new closer in the bullpen. As long as that doesn’t happen, I see this as good news.
Also, I don’t agree with the insinuation that Hank & Hal are to blame for this. Do we really think George didn’t have any say in any of this?
Folks, this is about respect. The dollars involved here are beyond what 99.99% of the people on this blog can comprehend (including me). Joe does not need the money. And he already felt what it was like to have a “one year” deal this past season (since it was the last year of his contract) You cannot offer the man a 33% paycut after he makes the playoffs for the 12th straight season. That is just nuts. All these arm-chair CEOs saying “that’s fair!” Relative to what the team has accomplished with him as the manager, it was not fair.
I think the offer is fine and they could have escalated the performance incentives ($1M for winning ALDS, 1.5 for winning ALCS, 2M for winning WS). Ultimately, Torre survived far longer than he had any reason to. Complain all you want, Pete, but Torre should have been sacked regardless of his popularity or track record after the 2004 ALCS — a humiliation that Yankee fans relive every day in the playoffs (especially the past two with the Redsax down to their last hopes). Casey Stengel won 7 WS with the Yanks, and 10 pennants in 12 years but took the sack after the 1960 WS loss to the Pirates because he stupidly failed to pitch Whitey Ford three times.
It is only because of his previous achievements that Torre could survive the WorstChokeEver — and get a 3 year, 19+M extension on top of it! Since the team lost Paul O’Neill, it has gotten up off the mat just once in the postseason (2003 ALCS), but has been floored by lesser teams in the past three years.
If it’s the organization and the players that fail, it’s the organization and players that succeed. Weathers, Lloyd, Nelson, Stanton, Mendoza are all familiar names to Yankee fans for good reason, but not because Torre suggested the Yanks should go out and get them. And Torre loved Tom Gordon, who was awful in the 2004 ALCS.
Torre was offered a higher salary than any manager makes. The offer was actually better than the same structure that Joel Sherman suggested in the NY Post. He turned it down. It’s Joe’s decision.
Peter,
If Mr. Torre wants to turn down another year as Yankee mgr. so be it. This organization is still trying to steady itself after so many years of dictatorship. The interested parties are looking for their future. Let them sort it out with a new field boss.
By the way the math. lesson is an insult to anyone who works for a living and buys the journal news.
Pete,
Alot of people are piling on you here and rightly so…time to find a new job.
you speak out of both sides of your mouth often, are lost on a lot of your views and like most main stream media, just go along with the view of the day.
33% cut of your salary? how bout all of it!?!?!?!?
I am manager of a technical team for a company. If my team underperformed for 5 years straight and failed to meet company objectives… and they offered me a 33% pay cut that STILL meant I was the highest paid person at my position…. not only would I not be offended, I’d be happy to still have a job.
What if your readership had fallen for the past 5 years?
Would you still be offended by a proposed pay cut?
So, was Cashman offered a 30% pay cut for his failure to win it all? This unreasonable expectation to win the series every year is ridiculous. I’ve been a Yankees fan since the 60′s and remember the lean years. Now we are treated to 12 post seasons in 12 years and they offer to cut Joe’s salary. What a joke.
Yes the man is finally gone, dont want 5 million wat a joke if he go anywhere else he will get no where near the money, Yankees been overpaying him for the past 3 years
“Welcome to the Hank and Hal Era.”
Welcome to the Peter Angelos era. Ask your Orioles fan friends (if they’ll identify themselves anymore) how much they like THEIR meddling owner.
If you’re going to offer a base cut/incentive deal to a Hall of Famer you at least need to show him the courtesy of doing it privately. It’s fine to decide to move on, Torre’s a big boy and knows how baseball works, but dragging on this sorry charade was appalling. What a ham-handed, classless circus. I’m serious about the Angelos comment. Cash must be taking his fourth shower of the day trying to clean this slime off.
Joe needed to go, but not this way. Totally classless, especially when Torre has been nothing BUT class for all his years with the franchise.
Looks like the Steinbrenner boys will be every bit the a$$hole their father is. It’s embarrassing to be a Yankee fan today.
I do agree that part of the reason he left was because of the pay cut. But, I also think he turned it down because the deal was setting him up to fail. I don’t think he wanted to have to go through all of this again at the end of next season if the Yanks can’t make it to the World Series. If they had offered him a 2-year deal for $10 million, I think he would have had a better chance of accepting it than he did this current offer.
Pete,
You and all of the talking heads are way off here. Torre is not a reporter or a lawyer or a short-order cook. He is the manager of a sports team. Should the Yankees have paid Bernie more when they gave him another year?
Torre was certainly not a failure — but he didn’t live up to the amount he was being paid. The Yankees offered him a fair salary based on what he had previously made and what he had accomplished. He would still be the highest paid manager in the sport.
Now, if Torre wanted a second year guaranteed, that is a different story. He may or may not have asked for it and the Yankees may or may not have turned him down. Either way, Torre was offered a fair contract and he had every right to turn it down.
I’m against you too Pete. And this crap about Torre not wanting to go through this again next year? Through what, an evaluation of his performance? Any other manager in baseball would have taken the deal offered to Torre. You think Eric Wedge, who made $1.025 mil wouldn’t have taken that and you think he wouldn’t have gotten just as far with the talent we have? How about Terry Francona, who interestingly, gets incentive bonuses for making the playoffs, winning the LDS, winning the LCS and winning the world series on top of his base pay of $1.65 mil? Hmmm, they are both still in the playoffs—–WE ARE NOT!!!!
When Yogi was disrespected by the Yankees he was away from the Stadium for over 14 years. Bernie Williams has not been seen there since he was treated like a newcomer. I don’t expect to see Joe Torre anywhere near the Yankees once he has cleaned out his office and said goodbye to the staff.
I’m wondering how many fans are cancelling their tickets for next year…………
This is the culture of the Steinbrenner Yankees.
If the incentives (ALDS, ALCS and WS)are largely out of Torre’s control, then why is he given credit for making the playoffs and World Series in the past. Weren’t they out of his control too?
I wanted Torre back, and I do respect his decision. But I find this idea that the Yanks offer was insulting a bit much.
A star player earns $10M a year based on some outstanding seasons, then has a series of seasons that are good, but not as good as he had say, oh…7 years ago.
His contract is up, and his team offers him a deal that is a 30% cut, but still $7M, and the highest at his position? Player salaries rise and fall based on performance.
Is that really insulting?
Torre has his principles, and he stuck to his guns. And the concept of the incentives was silly, but still this offer was still higher than any other manager in the game.
This is a mess, and was handled badly by all parties.
I really think the unacceptable part of the contract was the length of one year. The option of an extension of a year if you win the World Series is a joke. With no option, does anybody believe that if the Yankees win the World Series next year, whoever is manager wouldn’t be back? So it was just a basic one year contract.
As to the “incentives”, Levine and company sure botched that explanation. Part of the problem with Torre’s contract was that is was essentially a reward for past performance. The trouble with that is it puts them where they were…. a manager being paid a sum to reward him for performances several years ago and now not quite winning it all. To look at this without emotion, consider any manager being given a very good salary, with significant rewards for post season success. When you win it all as they did in the past, the “incentives” kick in. You don’t have to get a new contract to reward you for the past, you get rewarded right now. If the postseason goes as it has recently, you are still the best paid manager in MLB. If you called it “profit sharing” of the extra income generated by post season success, rather than the foolish incentive concept, it makes good sense. Torre is smart enough to understand this, and could explain it such that the “cut” would not undermine his authority. What _would_ undermine his authority, is just a one year contract. That was unacceptable, and that is exactly why he rejected it. We will see how good a manager he was when he is no longer around next year. Somebody still needs to blend guys like Giambi, Mussina, Damon, etc. into a lineup their ability is struggling to justify a place in, but who are being paid way too much to just release or be reasonably able to trade. Good luck with that to whoever gets the job!
I am a subscriber of this blog and usually think your right on point with your views, but I have to disagree with you vehemently and the rest of the media as well. I think some of you have entered the realm of la la land with many other baseball people. Baseball is a game but it is also a business, especially for the owners of the best franchise in the sport, and they needed to make the move they made from a financial standpoint.
When you think of it, it was quite brilliant because Torre would have still been the highest paid manager in baseball by at least 1.5 mil, so what is the problem? I mean he does not deserve a raise for what he did in the past, he deserves a pay cut because in many people’s opinion, he did not deserve as much money as he got 3 or 4 years ago. In reality, the contract was fair, very fair. The problem is they knew as stubborn as he is, that he would not accept the offer, and they can wash their hands clean of him.
He is 68 years old, and we need to shake things up. If Mo and Posada leave, so be it. I dont understand what type of loyalty they have? To the yankees, the boss that writes their freaking checks all these years? Or their manager?
Its almost insane when you try to apply it to any other facet of life.