Bowa may bolt for Mariners
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- October
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According to this story in The Olympian, Larry Bowa is expected to be the new third base coach of the Seattle Mariners.
This would be bad news for the Yankees as Bowa is the best third-base coach in the business and an excellent infield instructor. He has made a major impact in the career of Robinson Cano and it was his work all spring that helped Alex Rodriguez improve his fielding so much.
Mel Stottlemyre will be Seattle’s new pitching coach as well.
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on Saturday, October 20th, 2007 at 2:52 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
“This is bad news for the Yankees as Bowa is the best third-base coach in the business”
Um, no he’s not. Where do you come up with this crap?
Im just happy theres no chance of him managing.
_Um, no he’s not. Where do you come up with this crap?_
Um, yes he is. That’s one of the biggest reasons why they went out and got him a few years back because Luis Sojo was horrible as the third base coach.
See ya Larry! I guess he left because of Torre’s departure. But at least for a bench coach or managerial job; not for a 3B coach positiong for another team. ‘Ol well….we’ll just Dave Eiland as third base coach, lol.
he is the best 3B coach in baseball that’s not false they did a study on the PCT % of runners safe Bowa is # 1
I expected him to bolt already, he really had one tie here and that was Torre. It’s sad to see him go but he’s replaceable IMO. Robi Cano is going to be star wouldn’t worry much about him he’s been maturing w/ the metoring from Alex Rodriguez and Kevin Long.
How was Torre even a “tie” to Bowa? They had never played together or known each other. The Yankees hired him. He liked Torre, they became friends. It’s not as if he was a guy Torre “brought in,” like Zimmer.
The Yankees front office deserves credit for hiring Bowa, who did an excellent job for two or three years before taking a promotion at a different franchise.
DanielK:
I talk to scouts, players and othe people in baseball. Bowa is known as the best 3B coach going. Cashman said it as well when they hired him. A-Rod has said it many times.
That’s where I come up with “this crap.”
You’re basing “um, no he’s not” on what? Enlighten us.
DanielK–U just got OWNED!!
Nice one, Peter. I thought Bowa was a great third base coach.
not surprising after hearing what bowa said on bbtn about how he thought the yankees handled the torre situation disrespectfully
Dr Acula –
Do you know how to make the rolling eyes emoticon? I would like to use it every time someone else is wholly credited for any and every aspect of Alex’s ‘07 season.
either way you look at it Bowa leaving is not a good sign. Its an indication that a lot of people will skip town after this whole Torre fiasco. Regardless of what ARod, Posada and Rivera do, there are going to be a lot of people who question whether they want to be with the Yanks now.
wow this really, really sucks like a lot. Bowa was so good. I seriously can’t even remember one mis-judgment. He was very aggressive but in a good way. He never ran base runners into outs.
That a boy Pete – don’t take crap from people
Larry is the best 3rd base coach in the game – if u look at the tapes he runs so far to home that he may have scored more runs then the top 3 in the order combined!!
Thanks for the great job you do Peter!
the beginning of the exodus. respect for yankee front office has yet to bottom out.
The new manager should bring in new people, so I’m fine with Bowa leaving.
Turn the page.
whoever wants to leave can hit the road. i won’t mind the yankees going into a rebuilding phase if it means straightening things out.
I could be wrong but I don’t think Torre knew Zimmmer personally before they worked together. The exodus begins indeed..
“Now good Yankees baserunning past 2B (done by mostly veterans who’ve been baserunning for years) is largely cuz of Bowa. The “credit for success, zero blame for failureâ€? never ceases!”
i can’t know if you’ve ever played baseball, but think about it… you round second base heading for third, most of the time your back is to the ball and the player who is handling (or mis-handling) it. you have to rely on exactly what your third base coach is signaling you to do: slide into third, come in standing up and hold, or continue full-speed ahead towards home plate. then it’s the on-deck hitter’s job to tell you standing up or super-close play requiring a slide.
so it’s teamwork that’s required for a runner to score after he rounds second base. Larry Bowa is known by player assessments to be one of the best in the business at the task of waving them home or having them hold-up. the fact that he went to the same exact job in seattle, i would suspect with a slight pay-cut considering their budget, says tons about morale and spirit in the yankee universe at the moment.
this may all change once a new manager is in place, coaching staff selected and players (re)signed. I’m not betting on it though.
Very sad… I liked Bowa. Who now?
It’s only the beginning of change – coaches and players will have better opportunities elsewhere. That’s just the nature of the game, even without Joe leaving. As much as I hate it, Torre is gone, now we all have to turn the page, even us fans! Good luck to Bowa, who brought tremendous energy and knowledge to his position. I can’t imagine the Yankee organization not attracting the best in the business to replace him or anybody else. Even though the organization is not known as the most comfortable place to work, there are still many who would kill to wear the pinstripes.
Oh well it’s all starting now. All these Torre haters are going to start to sound like jilted lovers. “I didn’t need you anyways”. I know it’s only my opinion, but you anti-torre types are all idiots for not seeing the bigger picture.
OMG what do we do now we lost our 3rd base coach!!! cut it out already with the mass exodus crap. How come it’s never the coach’s fault when a team doesn’t live up to it’s expectations and always his achievement when they do?
Torre played the victim very well yesterday didn’t he? 5 million to 8 million with incentives, is an insult for someone who has not delivered for the last seven years? Come on with the emotional BS already people…just because someone is a nice guy does not make him the best man for the job. You want nice people around you for friends and mates fine. If you want nice people around you in business, instead of people who are actually good at what they do…then you are a fool. Torre was a terrible manager B4 George gave him a dream team. His success here was all about being in the right place at the right time. The coaching staff has turned upside down almost every year since Torre’s been here and he has escaped the axe. Why do his charges always have to take the hit for his failures? Did any of you pay attention to the Play-offs the last 5 years. He did a terrible job in each of the loss’s. The only series that I would attribute to Torre’s composure is the 96 season. I will even say he did a great job in 98 when the team had so much pressure in the play-offs to live up to their record during the regular season. But the man has not made a good baseball move since Zimmer left. Coincidence? I think not…Do we really need a manager that needs to have Joba Rules imposed on him to keep him from ruining our best young pitcher? It is time to turn the page. It is time for a manager who is in tune with the way the game is played in the new millenium.
Okay Mehdi,
I What is the big picture? Let’s hear it exactly…
By the way because someone does not have a problem with the Yankees letting him go, does not mean they hate him. I like Torre the human being, I would love to be his neighbor. But I do not want him running my team.
Pete it never ceases to amaze me, how some people never understand what you do for a living,but yet want to call you out.Thank you for allowing the” nitwitts” a forum for their folly(LoHudBlog) ,while putting them in their place.This person probably isn’t a yankees fan anyway!!!
Also your appearing on ESPN quite frequently. They value your opinion.When your on I can take them more serious,but Steve Phillips(HAhaha )Please!
Actually Torre’s coaching staff was a pretty stable bunch until George began poking his finger in Torre’s chest by forcing out his coaches. Both Stotelemeyer and Zimmer left on bad terms with the Boss. Willie Randolph was with Torre since the 90’s.
We haven’t seen this much disarray with the Yankees since the early 90’s. I think we all grew accustomed to th Yankees finally having some stability after 30 years of chaos. Unfortunately, chaos reigns in the Bronx once again. The Levinebrenners to this point have shown no ability to make a correct decision. If torre had to leave, they couldn’t have done a worse job with his exit. It’s all quite embarrasing.
I thought at times last year the Yankees looked lethargic. As fans, we don’t know what’s going on but we do know it’s a bad reflection on the manager. I was actually hoping Larry Bowa was one of the mangerial candidates. The players knew him and seemed to respect him. He also seemed to be somewhat of a mentor to Robby Cano and Melky.
More importantly, Bowa could have been Mattingly’s bench coach. They MUST have a strong guy in that position if Donnie gets the job.
It’s not mass exodus; it’s enlightened self interest. Bowa saw a better option for himself. I’d like to think that the fiery Bowa was not going to stick around to play for Steinbrenner & Sons, Levine without Torre to run interference. But there’s no way of knowing that for sure unless Bowa himself said it to somebody. And who says he would have been retained anyway? Maybe he was seen as a Torre Guy with a Big Mouth like Zimmer and was slated to be fired. Could even be that Bowa heard that Pena was in the running for the skipper-ship and he wasn’t, so he bolted.
I’m going to miss Torre for a lot of reasons but the off season is always full changes in coaches at 3d base, pitching, bullpen, etc. When a new manager comes in, there is often a pretty clean sweep and for good reason: a new manager needs his own guys. Lee Mazzilli can tell you what happens if you can’t pick you own guys. A lot is up in the air right now, but it will be resolved if imperfectly. Hang in there. It’s not over quite yet.
Separate note: Can’t help but think that Randy Levine sensed the power vacuum at Steinbrenner & Sons and jumped into it with both of his big feet, trying to prove his worth and his big cojones, to show there was a reason to keep him on after the new Stadium is done. I can just hear him, “When I was with the Mayor’s Office, we chewed up and spat out guys like Torre all the time. Let me handle it…” And then Steinbrenner and Sons said: “He’s our kind of guy.”
It’s a Bad News for Bombers!!
I like Bowa as well as Wanger!!
And it’s also a bad news Mel Stottlemyre will be Seattle’s new pitching coach.
I hope GM can let Torre come back!!Give him more salary!
Living in DC, I am having an erie sense of deja vu. Welcome to the world of the Baltimore Orioles. No final decision on personnel can be made by their baseball people–it has to filter thru the great baseball mind of Peter Angelos….Look what that has brought a once great franchise. Substitute Hal and Hank, add a little chaos from Randy Levine–whoever the hell that is, and I can only hope that we are not following the totally parylzed front office model of the Birds.
The Mariners gain is the Yankees loss. He brought a lot to the Yankees and will be missed. Another dent in the armor.
He would have made a terrific bench coach to the new manager with his brand of fire and knowledge of the game.
All the best to you Larry Bowa.
According toNewsday, nothing is definite “I’m just weighing things out right now,” Bowa said. “They’re a good organization, with good people running it. I haven’t really put a deadline on it. They’ve talked to me; they’ve made a proposal to be their third-base coach.”
Bowa would like to stay with the Yankees. His year-round home is outside Philadelphia, and his daughter Tori is in law school on the East Coast.
Apparentlty Cashman called all the coaches saying that while the Yankees loved them they cannot guarantee anything because the new manager gets to choose his coaches. You know I’m upset about how the Torre situation was handled as well but get a grip!! Way to overreact & over dramatize very little thing!!
I remember reading that Bowa would sign a lifetime contract to coach under Joe Torre if he could. He likes the man that much.
I cant figure out what the heck happened to my earlier post…Censorship from Amngelos? Levine? Hank? Hal? THis is bigger than I thought.
“Torre was a terrible manager B4 George gave him a dream team. His success here was all about being in the right place at the right time.”
they said the exact same thing about casey stengal. probably about joe mcCarthy as well
Damn.
We’ll miss you, Larry !!
http://tinyurl.com/2hr2o9
“Larry Bowa is considered the best third base coach in the game.” ~ George King, 10.27.06
The big picture is the Yankees are losing stability and continuity which are just as big an element in them making the playoffs for 12 years in a row as is the $200+ million they are overpaying these people with. I’m not trying to act like chicken little here and tell you the sky is falling, but the outside perception will be that it is. In two days we would have lost two very good people. This is not a good thing. It could get worse or it could not, but the point is that at the moment it’s not a good thing. I don’t understand the good riddance atitude some of you have. I just seriously hope we make the playoffs next year or your types will have a Scanner like moment where your heads will explode.
Anyways I’m sad to see Torre go, but the team has the right to let him go. I just wish they would have not given him that stupid offer. They are still the team I root for and will continue to root for. I’m not one of these idiots who think we should make the world series every year, no matter what are inflated payroll might be. I’m sorry some of you think Torre was ruining your team. It’s amazing to see that 4 out of 6 World Series carries a lot of weight with you spoiled kids. Go out there and ask other fans how they would have loved to be in the playoffs 12 years in a row and to win atleast one world series in that time.
Bowa did a great job as coach. We will miss him. Cardinal fans are also grateful he ran Scott Rolen out of Philadelphia.
This is sad. I’m a die hard Yankee fan, but this whole 3 steinbrenner and Randy Levine big ego BS is making me furious. I love Cashman, but it seems everyone else in front office thinks they’re the president of the country, and they seem to be ruining this team.
Pretty stable uh?
Chambliss
Howard
Zimmer
Stotlemeyer
Down
Butterfield
Mazzilli
Sojo
Cardinale
Denbo
Cloninger
There may be a few more that I can’t recall…
Good lord, now you are ripping Bowa?
Are some of you even old enough to know what you are talking about?
Larry Bowa is considered by baseball people as the best third base coach in the game. He also is one of the best infield instructors in the game. That’s by BASEBALL people!
Don’t give me this, “don’t let the door hit you in the butt” argument. Its a BIG loss, if they don’t convince him to sit tight for a week.
You can’t keep losing good people and think everything is ok simply because its the Yankees. Its the same mentality that makes some of you think the making the playoffs is your birthright.
I’d hate to lose Bowa and if I was the Yankees, I’d make sure I don’t by offering him a lot of money to stay.
They have the money, SPEND IT! It sure as hell is better than spending it on the Kei Igawa’s of the world.
The folks bemoaning the loss of Torre seem to be taking great delight in looking at any exodus by player or coach as a clear consequence of Torre leaving too.
Give me a break already. Yes, Bowa was good at 3B and yes he was good to get in Cano and Melky’s face and teach these young guys the intricacies of the game, but what is the basis for stating this is bad, bad news for the Yankees- that he simply can’t be replaced??
Please get real. Bowa may have been good, really good perhaps. But there are certainly other candidates, that can be slotted in here. And as other posters have said Bowa potentially leaving is not necessarily an indication someone is fleeing the Yankees, it’s quite possible it’s a better opportunity for advancement for Bowa whom one has to believe would like to manage again.
Anybody who didn’t see the changes coming for the Yankees must have had their heads in the ground. The Yankees are going to get a lot younger in the next few years and they need someone who can manage kids. Torre stuck with the veterans to a fault and a sign of that was his bullpen. He continually burned his bullpens up.
Think about this, hanging onto Rivera and Posada with multiyear contracts would be a mistake. They are the Gary Sheffield’s of last year.Let them go somewhere and the Yankees will be compensated with draft picks. The same with AROD let him go too. Look at the teams that are winning now, Cleveland and Colorado they are all built from within. Think about it the Torre move was a sign of what is happening in baseball. The agents for the players and managers haven’t caught on yet.
really good people don’t often work for idiots unless they have no choice. bowa had a choice. with bowa leaving, the exodus continues.
having the consensusbrenners running the yankees is like having a bad president of your country. you can’t stand the leadership and are embarrased by it, but you still love your country and can’t wait untill the next election. we as yankee fans are screwed until there is a new ownership. but the yankees are bigger than any ownership like a country is bigger than any president. hiring mattingly will probably do the most to keep yankee culture intact. ownership doesn’t know what it is to be a yankee. mattingly does. i’d personally prefer girardi because, with all things equal, i think a fromer catcher knows more about the game because he handles pitching as well as defense and offense. i think girardi would better handle the pitching staff. it would also be fun to watch girardi take on levine / hal/hank when they did something stupid which you know will happen on a regular basis. i don’t think they would hire him for that very reason. so it’s got to be mattingly for them. i would not be shocked if he turns them down though. mattingly is going to have a tough moral choice to make. he loves the yankees but he knows levine/hal/hank, the consensubrenners, are jackasses. does he suck it up and help the yankees despite the ownership or does he see the writing on the wall and leave for another manager’s job which he would most likely get at some point?bernie,stottlemyre,torre ,guidry, and zimmer are all in exile right now. how many others are going to be added. is posada next? rivera? arod? the consensubrenners need mattingly right now just to show that a real yankee will choose to work for them. the players under contract like jeter and all have no choice. i hope mattingly knows how much they need him and gets the contract all hs way. a strong mattingly could go a long way to neutering the ownership and least pushing it somewhat into the background.
as a corollary to mattingly having a strong bulletproof contract to insulate him from the consensusbrenners, cashman should insist on a three year extension to the one year he has. if he doesn’t he’s a lame duck gm who won’t have the clout to execute his long range plan. if cashman doesn’t get the extension,he should resign because he won’t have the clout to implement his plan. levine will have his thumb on him at all times. he might as well go for it while he too has the leverage. the yankees could not afford to lose cashman right now.
Mehdi,
I am 41 year old and have watched this team the entire Steinbrenner era. My only worry is that George dies and the kids don’t have his desire to win. I am not willing to give Torre full credit for 4 championships and no blame for the failures. You can’t have it both ways. If he doesn’t hit or pitch when they lose then he doesn’t hit or pitch when they win. Stability has not been a factor in the Yankees championships. Look at the roster changes every year. Look at the coaching changes. The reason the Yankees won so much in the 90s is because they refused to accept defeat…Remember Paul Oneill in 97? That is what wins. The same way Boston beat us 4 straight in 04. They wanted it more, they did not accept that they would lose. Torre has no killer instinct. He is the Main reason for the most embarrassing collapse in Yankee history. His Managing in that series was grounds for being dismissed.
Yes, stable. Half the names on that list were forced out by Steinbrenner in an effort to make Torre just a little uncomfortable.
Compare the Yankees coaching staff of the last 12 years to someone like the Red Sox. They change just about their entire staff every year. Other than Francona, there’s not a coach left from ‘04. Comparatively speaking,no team’s coaching staff has been as stable over the last 12 years.
VOIII-
We are totally on the same page here. What bothers me is the fact the media and talking heads have spun this event into an absolute made for tv drama with Torre cast as the tragic hero and the Yankees, in particular Levine, cast as the evil, blundering fool. In the process, this event has been hyped and blown so far out of proportion that so many people are jumping off the cliff emotionally and there is no more hope or no more love left in Yankee land, so coaches and players are staging exodus II.
Hire the next Joe, Girardi.
It is the spoiled and ungrateful Yankee fans that rip the Steinbrenners. Who would you rather have as an owner? The vast majority of owners are profit driven. George has financed not only the great Yankee teams but the dozen or so small market teams that he is in compitition with. He gives yankee fans the best team his money can buy year in and year out and you ingrates have the nerve to rip him and his sons…shame on you. The Yankees have spent over a billion dollars on this team for the Torre era. Why should they not expect some loyalty and hard work…And some quality managing would be nice….
Torre, Bowa and A-Rod are just the first three of many Yankees that will be leaving, because of the ego, lack of character and lack of understanding of Randy Levine and George Steinbrenner.
Levine and Steinbrenner are every bit as arrogant, prejudice, clueless and charaterless as Marge Schott and probably even more so. Torre’s post season record with 76 wins is merely the best post season record in the history of all of baseball. Steinbrenner and Levine are completely clueless and characterless and are an affront and embarassment to the Yankees and all of sports.
I’m laughing over Levine’s comment, “we were all stunned and remain stunned that he turned the deal down.”
Give it up, Larry. No counteroffer was permitted.
This isn’t LA, Yankee fans are the 10th player on the field (11th, if you include the DH).
Ashley, What is your basis for slandering Levine and the Steinbrenner sons? Do you know these guys personally? Were you in the room, or were you just reading the papers and you drew the inevitable conclusion the writers intended you to draw– the Yankees brass is uncaring, Levine is a monster and Torre is a savior who was rejected??
Before you make these allegations try to come up with facts and quotes from people who are willing to go on the record.
I am willing to give the Yankees brass the benefit of the doubt, after all the multi-millions the Yankees brass has forked over to make us fans root for a championship caliber team year in and year out.
To say Franconna has been the only one who stays is silly, He has only been there three years. My point is not that the Yankees are the only staff that are unstable my point is that it has always been the underlings fault. they are dismissed and the man who is their superior escapes unscathed year in and year out. Sooner or later he had to be held responsible for his teams failures. I know it’s crazy to say a 94 win team is a failure but when you look at the roster every year they have under achieved. Are the Indians better then this team? No they just played better. you can blame injuries all you want but injuries and set backs are not exclusive to the Yankees. This Team has gotten out of the gate amazingly slow the last three years only to turn it on late. That is lack of preperation folks. The fact that Torre recieves credit for the turn-arounds is pure BS… it is the Youthful enthusiazm that reinvigorated the teams. 2005 it was Cano and Wang, 2006 it was Melky and the trade for Abreu. 2007 it was Duncan and the big three. That is a credit to Cashman NOT Torre.
since there seems to be wholesale coaching changes going on, wang’s sinker absolutely needs to be fixed so the coach who created it in the first place should be rehired with that as his main focus. that would be neil allen. he made wang. before allen got a hold of him ,wang was a low level prospect. he may go back to that if his sinker doesn’t come back.
allen played with mattingly,randolph,guidry,righetti etc under billy martin and pinella. he has an idea of what it is to be a yankee .
i’m not saying for anything but to fix wang. what’s a hundred thousand for a special instructor to get your ace back?
Any Yankee fan that does not understand that losing Torre, Bowa and A-Rod is a bad thing or that it was because of the ego, lack of character and understanding of George Steinbrenner will also be surprised by the mass exodus of other Yankee players and coaches, and the losing ways of the Yankees the next few years.
Torre had the all-time best post season record in the history of baseball. If you want to win long term in post season, Torre is your guy. The folks comparing Steinbrenner to Marge Schott are spot on! Both lack character and clarity.
Bowa was the best third base coach in baseball. A-Rod is the best shortstop and player in all of baseball. Without these three people, the Yankees are not the Yankees and many more Yankees will be leaving this year. Levine and Steinbrenner deserve their reputation and thelosing season before them next year
“The vast majority of owners are profit driven.”
The Yankees and the Red Sox aren’t profit driven?? Heck,they print money.
I don’t feel people are acting “spoiled or ungrateful” just because they expect the Yankees to act with a certain amount of class and dignity. I don’t care if it’s George Steinbrenner or George the owner of the company you’ve worked for all your life, it’s not unreasonable to expect the owner to sever an employee’s ties with mutual respect and dignity. It doesn’t matter if you’re the Yankees manager or if you’re one of the thousands let go by AOL. There’s a right way and a wrong way to do things.
I kinda like the drama. Very 1977 (sans disco).
Olbermann doesn’t constantly cover Lindsey Lohan cuz of her acting.
Just keep Bowa, damn it!
“Can’t help but think that Randy Levine sensed the power vacuum at Steinbrenner & Sons and jumped into it with both of his big feet, trying to prove his worth and his big cojones, to show there was a reason to keep him on after the new Stadium is done.”
you nailed that one ,murphydog. i think you’re also right about bowa leaving while the leaving was good. he had another job offer when there wasn’t anything written in stone for staying with the yankees.
most fans don’t ever see this ,but it’s not unusual for teams to leave coaches hanging for months with no contract being offered. bowa probably didn’t want to go through the uncertainty. this isn’t his first rodeo. he made a move to have some control over his life.
Yes another blow to the yankees it was obvious how he helped turn around around and had a major impact on Cano.
Wow, the hyperbole that goes on here is amazing. First, Bowa was offered a job. He did not resign from the Yankees yet or give notice. The Yankees could make a counter-offer that would keep Bowa here. But if he does go on to Seattle, the Yankees will be fine. They will hire somebody else. That somebody may not have the “best in baseball” credentials that Bowa had, but he’s not gonna be some stooge, either.
If people want to leave NY, that is their perogative. If they would not be happy staying on, then it is better if they do leave. Who needs malcontents in the midst? If Posada and Mo (and Pettitte) decide to leave, I suspect it will be because they believed Bernie and Joe were not dealt with “respectfully.” That is their right to believe so, and frankly, they are emotionally involved in those two particular situations. Even if the Yankees offer the most money, sometimes it is not about the money, and people have to feel comfortable in their workplace. If they would no longer feel comfortable, they should move on. Of course, there are no guarantees anywhere else, and they will find that out, too. But anyone can stand anything for a short time, and that’s what these guys have left – the last few years of their careers. I don’t begrudge them if they choose to leave. Frankly, in all of this, neither side owes the other anything. The players have played well, and contributed much, and the owners, for their part, have paid them well for their efforts.
I also don’t know how anyone can say with certainty that the Steinbrenner boys don’t care about winning. At the very least they know that a winning team brings in more revenue so it is in their best financial interest to keep putting a winning team on the field. And please, remember, people, when George first came along, he knew absolutely nothing about baseball, per se. He made the same demands on Billy Martin as he has made on Joe Torre. Joe Torre was never humiliated by Steinbrenner as Martin was. Sure, he was made uncomfortable, but never fired, re-hired, fired, etc. And you can say that others were able to run interference for Joe because of Steinbrenner’s advanced age, but even Joe would admit that every year his job was on the line. Every year.
I think Joe’s presence for the past 12 years has put us fans into a coma-like state. We’ve grown comfortable with the smooth ride and forgot (or never even knew) what the bumpy ride was like. I suspect the future will be a little more bumpy, but I also believe it will NEVER be has volatile an environment as it was when George first took over ownership of the team. I say to reserve judgment on the Steinbrenner sons.
Someone stated in an earlier thread that sometimes the forest has to burn so the saplings can take root or something to that effect. Change can be good. This change came about in a shoddy way, but can anyone here really say they are totally surprised that it was the end of the line for Joe Torre in one way or another?
Despite what the talking heads want folks to imagine or draw as fact, Torre wasn’t dismissed or fired, he turned down an extension that still provided the highest managerial base salary in the game and incentives that would have raised this salary another 60% on top of that! He turned it down!! He himself in his press conference said it was a generous offer.
Somehow, Levine, King George and the Steinbrenner sons have been portrayed as conniving , nothing but bottom-line suits that care nothing of the man Torre or his relationship with his players. That my friend is a crock!
If big Stein and his brass cared nothing of this, Torre would have been out on the street as early as 2004 after the Redsox debacle, but in spite of this debacle, the Yankees gave Torre 3 more years to get it straight, and his team didn’t, in fact his team got worse. Yes, blame it on the SP and blame it on the injuries and blame it on Bush(everything else is), but the manager also has to take some responsibility, and in this case Torre was given one more opportunity to prove his worth, and this opportunity came at the expense of the words of King George who was on record as saying he likely wouldn’t be retained, quite a compromise by Yankee decision makers wouldn’t you have to agree??
But Torre didn’t take the challenge, he called it insulting and he bit back at the hand that fed him so well for 12 years. In the midst of this after all Torre got from associating with the Yankees he has left dirt on this organization and his ex-team. In the end, Joe did not show dignity, he showed lack of appreciation.
This is a “what have you done for me lately” business. Sentimentality aside, there are thoughts directed at ownership who have every right to want more than they’ve seen since 2000 with all the money that’s been put into the team in order to produce winners.
Not all of the player moves were the best but it wasn’t for lack of trying. At the same time, many of Joe Torre’s game decisions were questionable as evidenced by the calls of “Clueless Joe” and green tea rantings. Those people have left to crawl under rocks or don masks.
Bowa saw more runners rounding third than any coach in the league. more than any Yankee coach than 1939, i think. does his presence in the third base box make much of a difference for a team with this capability?
His role as a fielding mentor is probably more important.
Kudos to him anyway. Seattle is an awesome city. Safeco is a wonderful, extremely fan friendly stadium.
Yankee 21… Actions are reality. Your opinions and words are illusions, not fact or even remotely real.
The actions of Levine and Steinbrenner offer a plenum of proof and speak for themselves as did the actions of Marge Schott when she canned rookie manager Lou Pinella for taking the Reds to the series and winning it all.
Levine and Steinbrenner gave Torre the same reward for the all time best post season win total, 94 wins and the 2007 playoffs! Thats fact and reality… not your illogical and emotional argument that I don’t personally know Levine and Steinbrenner. I don’t persoanlly know Marge Schott either, nor did I know Adolph Hitler, but theira actions tell me everything tht I need to about their character. The all-time best post season record, winning 94 games and going post season again, plus the games best third base coach merit retention. Your emotions and argument to support George Steinbrenner for canning the best post season manager in baseball history bear testament to your lack of clarity regarding baseball and character.
Maybe you can next defend Marge Schott for canning Lou Pinella or Adolph Hitler for his wonderous works. Your comments belie only ignorance, if you are defending the firing of the Torre for poor performance. His record is the all time best in post season history. You don’t can history’s all time best post season manager for having a great season, 94 wins and another post season for the Yankees, unless you are a moron, which your words seem to indicate. Exactly whose shoes do you think could possibly replace Torre’s. Unless the Yankees get Pinella, no one’s will. Pinella would never come to New York, he’s already worked for Marge Schott and understands that working for George would be exactly the same. And by the way I do know Mr. Steinbrenner personally.. do you?
If A-Rod leaves, he’ll leave because of money. His situation is totally separate from Torre’s.
Woo, Ashley, come down have some tea or something.
How did we get onto Hitler or Marge Schott here?
Levine and Steinbrenner have been cast as demons. Torre has been cast as a saint. Neither is true. Oh one more thing, congratulations, you know King George, so that immeditately gives legitimacy to all your opinions and immediately makes my words illusions. One more thing, How do you know him,,, do you serve him coffee in the morning?
Please do not equate Marge Schott with Hitler! Chill!
Sure, she may have been bigoted, but she ran a Baseball team, not a Nation.
The use of cumulative postseason records is a bit unfair in the context of Baseball History. Prior to 1995, there was no LDS. Prior to 1969, there was no LCS.
I agree with everyone defending Joe. Yankee 21 must either be a Red Sox fan or five years old! No one that is a true Yankee fan or knowledgeable could possibly be happy about losing Torre and Bowa or at the possibility of losing A-Rod.
Steinbrenner is rumored to be willing to lose A-Rod to get Bonds, but A-Rod is a champion and Bonds is past his prime and has never been on a championship team. Anyone that wants to see the Yankees win should be upset over losing Torre and Bowa, and even more upset at George for not being committed to keeping A-Rod. A-Rod is a true champion and the game’s greatest player.
One has to wonder about ownership and management that sees firing the games greatest managers and greatest players in their prime as a good thing! I love Mattingly and he is a cahmpion. But replacing “in his prime” A-Rod with a “weak-knee-d” Bonds and Torre is a bad thing for the Yankees, no matter how you slice it! Changing for the sake of change makes the Yankees weaker not stronger. We’ve already screwed up by not keeping Torre and Bowa, so lets not make the same mistake by losing A-Rod!!!!!
Gosh. Coach follows manager out the door. That’s, uhm, entirely predictable.
If managers are wildly overrated in their impact on a team’s success — Joe’s career is proof of that, unless you believe he was dusted with magic manager dust the day he arrived in New York, explaining his previous failures when, you know, he didn’t have the magic manager dust yet — coaches are similarly exalted. By, you know, the reporters who spend a lotta time with them. Again, reminded of the pundit class and politicians.
As for overrating Joe, firejoemorgan has, as always, the last and funniest word: http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2.....aulie.html
Some thoughts:
1. I don’t know Randy Levine, just what I’ve read in the newspapaers. But this guy is either a low-life or is taking the flak for the Steinbrenners and the poor decision making that went on.
They didn’t know that Joe Torre wouldn’t like the offer? That’s either lying or dumb for not knowing the mindset of one of your key employees.
2. This news item about Larry Bowa going to Seattle may not be accurate. As someone else posted, Newsday quotes Bowa as saying that nothing has been finalized. However, it reinforces my concern that a very good baseball man may be lost. Losing good people is never a good thing for an organization, because you then have to work extra hard just to replace him with someone just as good, which you may not be able to do.
3. Give Don Mattingly a break. I agree with Pete, he didn’t come back just to toss batting practice and hit fungoes. he quite possibly has a handshake agreement from George to be manager, if not first in line when the Torre era ended. Given the circumstances, this is hard for Donnie, as it would for many of us in our own jobs.
“This is bad news for the Yankees as Bowa is the best third-base coach in the business�
“Um, no he’s not. Where do you come up with this crap?”
Danielk,
Bowa is one of the best in the business. Do you even watch the games?
Good for you Michael, now that you agree with everyone defending Torre. That makes you a real man, a real yankee fan and me a redsox fan and/or a five-year old.
Now tell us exactly, how was Torre fired?
What is the basis for your rumor spreading about wanting Bonds over A-rod?
Don’t tell me, you read it in the Inquirer. Silly me for cancelling the subscription.
Drive,
Because the Yankees are successfull and “Print Money” does NOT make them profit driven. They have invested in this team time and time again to win baseball games not money. The fact that they were smart enough to realize what other owners never do (Good Product=Good Sales) is just a by-product. To call the ownership group classless because they wanted to tie Bonuses (which is exactly what incentives are) to performance is not a slap in the face. It is how corporate America opperates today.
Ashley,
Now we’re comparing Steinbrenner to Hitler? get real…What actions are you talking about? noone was dismissed. Joe elected (as is his right) to not accept a pay cut. The Yankees were entitled to offer him a paycut in that they have lost millions on the failure to reach the next level of the playoffs three years running. Marge Schott could never walk in Steinbrenners shoes. It was her husband that built the big red machine. 94 wins for this team with a 200 million dollar payroll is an achievement any manager in MLB should be able to attain. For the last three years this team has come out of the gate flat and uninspired. I hold the Manager responsible for that. You want to blame the Players? go ahead, then give them 100% credit for the Rings!
Michael Ross –
In the same article that was published during the ALDS that had Steinbrenner saying it was unlikely they would bring Torre back, he also stated that they would absolutely sign ARod. He was unequivocal about it. He wants ARod. Whether they sign him or not is a totally different story.
And I haven’t heard anywhere that the Yankees were interested in Bonds. What’s your source?
That was so not what I wanted to wake up to. Oh well. Ren Faire awaits.
I feel a Manny being Manny happening…….if we lose (u fill in the blank)it’s not the end of the world.
VOIII,
Now, now, you’re abusing the meme. Joe gets credit for pulling the Yankees out of a hole this season. The fact that they started out there is someone else’s. I dunno. Probably A-Rod. Or Edwar Ramirez.
Michael,
A-Rod is a Champion? OF WHAT???? Where the hell is his ring?
George wants Bonds over A-Rod? who’s the 5 year old to come up with that crap?
“Torre played the victim very well yesterday didn’t he? 5 million to 8 million with incentives, is an insult for someone who has not delivered for the last seven years?”
You people still aren’t getting it. Sure, money is always an issue… but the primary issue here was that it was a one year contract.
On top of that, the incentives were insulting. To think that a manager will manage differently because of these incentives is dumb. We’re supposed to believe that Torre would have performed better if he had incentives? It’s just silly. I just don’t get it. After 12 years, Torre felt he deserved more than a one year contract. I don’t see that as unreasonable.
Again, I have no big problem with not offering Torre a contract and just moving on. But this charade that they really wanted Joe back, that they are stunned…… oh, come on.
Yeah, losing a 3rd base coach is a lethal blow-
It’s a crucial position on the team- just ask Dale Sveum- the worst 3rd base coach ever – his team the 2004 red sox just happened to win the WS despite his ineptitude
THe hysteria here is so funny.
Steinbrenner has already said he wants to keep Arod yet some of the fawning Abraham ass kissers here have the Yanks dumping Arod for Bonds
Hint… never gonna happen
A new manager hires his own coaches. Bowa is just doing the prudent thing. If Donnie is chosen, there’s a good chance he keeps Bowa
It’s gonna be great to look at threads like this after it becomes clear that the Yanks “turmoil” exists mainly in the heads of hack blog writers looking to create hysteria and blog hits
Peace out, Bowa. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
I’m a Larry Bowa fan, but no man is bigger than the Yankees. Not Larry Bowa, or Joe Torre… not Alex Rodriguez, or Mariano Rivera, or Jorge Posada.
I will still be rooting for this team next season if the lineup consists of Shelley Duncans and Melky Cabreras and Sean Henns. I could care less. Let everyone else bolt for supposedly greener pastures.
We just lost the 13 all-time greatest winning manager in baseball history and the games current best third base coach. How can this be a good thing? Only La Russa and Cox have more wins. It is not a good thing and those replacing Torre and Bowa will have some very large shoes to fill.
I always marvel at teams that fire winning coaches. Steinbrenner could learn something from the Nebraska athletic director that just got fired for destroying their program. Like Steinbrenner, he fired their coach for winning (going 9-3 and going to a bowl game). Nebraska has been suffering ever since. Torre at 94 wins gets let go for going post season. Lets hope we don’t become as lame as Nebraska.
You know, I don’t see anything inherently wrong with offering a manager bonuses if he achieves certain things with the team. In fact, I do think the Yankees should offer these bonuses in a contract with any new person brought on board. However, to all of a sudden put these “bonuses” into play for a manager who has brought your team to the playoffs for 12 consecutive years was not a good move and not a good idea. Those 12 years prove that the manager was putting your team a position to compete for championships. In this instance, Mr. Torre specifically did not need a motivational carrot.
For a new manager, it would not be construed as an incentive, but a true bonus, I believe.
“I say to reserve judgment on the Steinbrenner sons.”
doreen-
i’ve scoured the web looking for the steinbrenner sons accomplishments. i haven’t found much. it looks like pure nespotism to me. it shouldn’t be too difficult for their supporters to come up with their achievements if there are any worth noting. i welcome any and all links to any info about their accomplishments.
when torre said he looked around the room and saw businessmen, it was a polite way of saying he saw ” suits”. it wasn’t a compliment. “suits” to players and coaches are people who have money but don’t know the game. every player and coach has had to put up with them.
hal, hank, and levine are the ulimate “suits”. they know little about the game ,but have little to no baseball experience.
this is going to be such a disastrous experience for them that they’ll sell at the first chance they have when george is gone and the estate taxes have to be paid. the yankees have survived bad owners and they’ll survive the steinbrenner sons, but i don’t think it’s going to be a fun ride with them.
DEEP,
No-one thinks Torre will manage differently with incentives. He just will not be rewarded for failure? what is wrong with that? Torre turned down 1.5 million more than any of his fellow managers make and is insulted…Well to freakin bad. If he is so confident in his abilities and his players why did he turn down what would amount to a raise? Where is his loyalty to the team that made him an ICON oh and about 80 million bucks. He turned down the chance to be the last Yankee manager to manage in the house that Ruth built because The Yankee brass simply said put-up or shut-up. 1 year contract? years = money. If he received a 2 year deal there would be NO garantee he’d be back the 2nd year anyway. He just wanted to know that he would get paid regardless. So you see, IT IS ABOUT MONEY!!!!
As the inestimable Steven Goldman pointed out in The Sun (read ‘em for their sports, deride them for their politics), Yankee managers always leave badly. Always.
Just ask Casey.
The franchise will survive. Joe was the right guy at the right time for this franchise, the best possible manager when it came to dealing with Big Stein, and not getting in the way of an extraordinary lineup. (And yes, managing the personalities in it.) He’ll be missed. Hey, Bowa will be too.
But the team will be just fine.
The Nebrasks analogy is not valid. No comparison between baseball and football with regard to coaching.
BTW, Russo compared succeeding Torre to that of Lombardi!
A bit of a stretch, eh?
I do not see MLB naming the WS trophy after JOE.
Hey “Hold Up”
You forgot that AROD has speed.
And you’re post was moronic.
VOIII,
Ever since George bought the team I’ve argued that I’d rather have an owner dedicated to winning than someone like the previous Red Sox ownership or others. The Red Sox really ramped up the rivalry when their new ownership group mirrored Steinbrenner’s will to win.
That doesn’t mean need to condone George’s behavior with the Howie Spira situation or the way he handled Dick Howser or Joe Torre. If George Steinbrenner is their role model, the Levinebrenners are going to embarrass us all at times. I don’t appreciate being embarrassed.
Best 3B coach in the league or not, any change will have a very marginal impact next year. Nothing to get upset about. I’m just glad he didn’t go back to Baseball Tonight. Now THAT would suck.
Yankee 21 and VOIII, lets see if our 2008 Yankees win 94 games and go deeper in the post season. I hope we do, but it doesn’t look good. Maybe you think Torre sucks. He’s got more wins than all but two guys in the game… And Cox and La Russa won’t be coming to New York, so we end up with a less experienced and less successful manager. Defend it all you want, but be careful what you wish for. I don’t see Mattingly taking us to winning 4 series in 5 years or even 12 years? Do you? Unless we address our pitching issues, we won’t go any further next year. Do you know enough about baseball to know the difference between a great player and great manager? Bill Russell was one of Basketball’s all time best, but as a manager, he was an abject failure. Do you think management that purposely lets Torre go with a paycut will keep Mattingly or Torre’s replacement beyond a season or two.
Randy,
George inherited his fathers ship building company and turned it into the Yankees? He had a little help along the way with nepotism, as did many other very successful people (The Trump name was on many buildings B4 Donald Jr was out of diapers, Donald Jr. just did it bigger and better). The Steinbrenner sons should be given a chance B4 we label them idiots.
Pete
With all the insanity the last few days, we could all use a little mindless gossip to think about.
Do you know what Clemens was going to share with everyone once the season was over?
Who won the bet Bowa made with A-Rod earlier this year?
Goldberg, less experienced managers are MORE successful on average. They are open to new ideas and strategies and don’t have loyalty to veteran players. Read Bill James.
Bowa got a new gig, so what, shouldn’t who ever is the new manager be able to pick his own coaches not be forced to inherit Torre’s crew?
Randy Levine is an employee of the Steinbrenners. Obviously they chose him to be their public face for the Joe now gone stuff. Very clever or else all this media-fueled hatred would be spewed at one of them. The NY media is being played.
Pete – Way to go with the smackdown! Have people not learned from the last few days the importance of respect??
And I’m seriously starting to wonder if some of the Levine/Yanks brass defenders on this blog are either blind or Levine office interns typing feriously on their keyboards after being dispatched a certain PR disaster control memo. I wouldn’t put that pass Randy Levine.
Goldberg,
No-one is saying Donnie will be a great manager…I just think it was time for a change and Donnie is the best fit. As far as the future and the 4 out of 5 stuff…Can you say that Torre would have won another 4 out of 5? do you not think he was a tad bit lucky taking over when he did? Is Torre the only manager who could have won 4 out of 6 WS with that roster? I guess we’ll never know for sure. However, History is a great forcaster and Torre’s resume pre-Yankees was what? yes, a Great ball player, lousy manager!!!
Dee
Are you or any in your family a member of the Communist Party? Signed, Randy Levine
Tommy: I take exception to your notion that analogies between different sports are invalid, merely because they are different sports. The syllogism I constructed was that of two winning programs and that of firing someone for having a very good season. At the time Nebraska fired Solich, they had the best current record over the prior 25 years, even better than Notre Dames over that period. After bringing in Callhan, they’ve been far less successful.
Letting Torre go was similar to situation as Nebraska, because like Nebraska, Torre had an exceptional record at the time he was let go, in fact one of the all time greatest. The Yankees will have difficulty hiring someone that will do as well as Joe for as long as Joe. Get back to me after Mattingly has gone to 12 straight playoffs or won as many rings as the head coach or with as much dignity as Joe Torre, while dealing with the ever-so-easy-to-deal-with Mr. Steinbrenner.
Yeah, only the Yankees would fire someone, which they did in a slimeball way, who got a team to the post season 12 years in a row. Only the slimeball management would fire a manager who had 90+ wins each and every season no matter who the GM put on the field. Please reflect on the pitching for the past couple years and how hard it is to win 90+ games with pitching like that.
Torre brought a kind face to the Yankees. He brought stability and maturity. That was something the Yankees were lacking since Slimebrenner bought the team. Torre also brought consistency. 12 years as manager and every year you had a 1st place or wild card team making it into the playoffs.
With Hank, Hal, and Randy now taking over, things are not good for the Yankees. Seriously and honestly things are not good now. Most of you aren’t old enough to remember the Yankees pre-Torre, but it wasn’t pretty.
I’m having a hard time staying faithful after the events of the past week. Torre was a good manager and anyone who says he wasn’t, doesn’t understand baseball at all. You may not agree with every choice he makes, but 99% of his choices were right on and that’s better than the record of most other managers and why most other managers haven’t lasted as long as Torre has lasted with the Yankees.
Torre had nothing to prove that he hadn’t proven already to the Slimebrenner brothers and Levine. His incentive based offer was insulting and didn’t show trust for Torre. Torre didn’t lose the ALDS. The players did. Torre put the best chance out there to win the series and the players didn’t deliver. Torre did all he could in his role and his moves were right on. The rest is up to the players.
Yes, the bug issue wasn’t addresses as it should have, but the Indians are a better team and why they are leading the Red Sox 3 – 2. It had nothing to do with Torre that they lost.
Yankee management are slimeballs and just lost the Yankees any class that they had through Torre. All of this just looks really bad and don’t expect many to jump at the chance to come to the Yankees after witnessing what just happened.
well, I guess it’s all but locked up that Donnie Baseball is going to be our new manager. anyone disagree with that? Donnie will be up to the task, as far as making it far into the playoffs in 2008, not so sure about that, but will anyone, even the front office, really expect that?
Michael Ross,
what the hell are you talking about? that is so not true? who in even Steinbrenner’s right mind would do that? Come on, I know Big Stein is not on everyone’s christmas card list right now, but really, he isn’t that stupid!
“Steinbrenner is rumored to be willing to lose A-Rod to get Bonds, but A-Rod is a champion and Bonds is past his prime and has never been on a championship team”
Drive,
I will take the embarassment in the owners box as long as it does not mean embarassment on the field i.e. 2004…George has been a cartoon charactor at times as the espn documentry has displayed beautifully. But he has been entertaining and has brought us all 6 rings and 10 trips to the WS and has always done his damnedest to give us the best team every year. Has he made mistakes? who hasn’t? I would take him over any owner in any sport.
I’m looking forward to ‘08. I can’t wait to see Phil, Joba, and Ian in the rotation. I’m excited about that. Maybe Brett Gardener turns out to be our 4th outfielder. Some of our TJ kids will make the team out of spring training. Leo Mazzone will probably be the pitching coach and Dave Eiland might become the bullpen coach. The 3rd base coach might be promoted from within, if Bowa doesn’t return.
Randy 1 –
I understand that the Steinbrenners may be all about business. I would hope that they will also take the counsel of some good baseball people as well. Now, perhaps they won’t, and certainly their first act is not impressive, to say the least. But I’m just saying, “let’s see.” He saw suits because these were not the people he had been dealing with for the last 12 years. He has no relationship with Hank and Hal. And really, George hasn’t been 100% behind Joe for a couple of years now, at least, and it was only the $7 million still owed to Joe that saved his job last year, because the only thing worse to George than paying Joe $7 million to manage his team was to pay Joe $7 million NOT to manage his team. Apparently there was still enough support for Joe, albeit lukewarm, to even agree on any offer of any contract. As mishandled as it was, it really is no indication how they’re going to deal with people going forward. “Let’s just see.”
If they don’t care for running the Yankees, I guess they’ll sell at some point, and then let’s worry about that. I have learned in my life that you shouldn’t borrow worry. It does absolutely no good.
Anyway, Randy 1, you’re the Vince Gennaro guy, right? Torre has lost the Yankees quite a bit of money in the last 3 season by not advancing past the first round, you could argue. You can’t be totally unhappy about this turn of events. The most important thing is to field a good team, so they have to concentrate all their efforts on doing so. If they don’t do that, then I’ll start to be convinced that they don’t care about winning.
“1 year contract? years = money. If he received a 2 year deal there would be NO garantee he’d be back the 2nd year anyway. He just wanted to know that he would get paid regardless. So you see, IT IS ABOUT MONEY!!!!”
Sorry VOIII, but I completely disagree with you.
At 67, an extra mill or two really isn’t the issue for Torre. He’s made like 40 mill over the past decade. He’s not on food stamps.
With a one year contract, there’s no commitment from the brass that they want him to be the manager. With a one year contract, Torre would be gone if they started 21 and 29 again, because there’s no commitment on the part of the Yankees. No big loss if they just scape-goated him. Our pitching staff was wrecked with injuries early on. Nothing Joe could have done about that. Torre didn’t want to be in a situation where he always had to be looking over his shoulder, always dealing with the distraction of whether or not he was going to get whacked. Always answering media questions on it. Always having the players distracted by it.
It’s obvious that they offered him a one year deal knowing full well he wouldn’t take it. So the brass could look like the good guys, and Torre could look like the greedy monster. Talking about the money in this case just clouds the real issue… Tampa intentially made Torre an offer they knew he would refuse. No way he was taking a one year deal.
If we can take a break from the Torre situation to talk some nuts and bolts baseball, here’s an interesting possibilty for a left handed reiever in ‘08.
His name is Hitoki Iswase. He’s 32 and plays for the Chunichi Dragons.Here’s an analysis I found on him:
“A left-handed closer, he holds the Japanese record for most saves in a single season with 46. As Japan’s highest paid pitcher with a salary of $3.1 million, the soon-to-be 33-year-old hopes to more than double that in the majors. His slider and fastball have been compared to Akinori Otsuka’s.”
I think he sounds intruiging.
Bowa is being interviewed on WFAN right now, by Mad Puppy.
VOIII: What are you saying? You can’t cut it both ways! You’ve been defending Steinbrenner for letting Torre go for winning 94 wins and going post season for 12 straight years! You’ve said it’s time for a change! So maybe you’re tired of all of the winning and going post season 12 straight years!! And after Mattingly or whoever doesn’t go post season for 12 years in a row and win as many rings, exactly what change is it that you want? Are you an intern working for Steinbrenner? You definitely can’t be a Yankee fan!!!
I think Dee is correct! Yankee 21 and VOIII can only be Red Sox Fans or interns defending Steinbrenner for the indefensible. The guy that said before the Yankees, Torre was a horrible manager is full of it. Torre did the best with the talent he had and has always commanded great respect from his players and coaches–i.e. people that know baseball. Losing Joe was not a good thing. It was a bad thing. It is not the end of the Yankees or the world, but in the final analysis, we would have been better with Joe than without him, and Joe Torre did deserve more than the one year contract that Levine and Steinbrenner offered. Yankee 21 and VOIII, we don’t need any more of your Red Sox rhetoric on how horrible Torre was. Only an absolute moron would attempt to assail Torre’s record or the dignity with which he conducted himself. Unless you yourself have 12 straight playoff berths on your resume, can it and stop embarrassing yourself by attacking one of the all time best win records and post season records in history.
Goldberg:
Sorry you took offense.
I’m merely trying to convey a belief that “managing” in Baseball is far less involved a process than is coaching a Football game.
After a second thought, i do like your Husker analogy in terms of the success/successor aspect.
A different analogy might be Solich getting fired after replacing the legend of OSborne. Will the next manager face that kind of pressure, replacing Torre?
FYI: Bowa is on with Russo right now.
Thanks #9.
Bowa’s right. Losing Game 2 was huge. A 5 game series is a crapshoot. He’s also laying the blame firmly on Wang and he’s right.
What happened to all the enthusiasm for next year that I used to read on this blog before the loss to Cleveland? I mean, everyone was psyched at the prospect of having Hughes, Chamberlain and IPK slotted into the starting rotation, and seeing if some of the other prospects like Ohlendorf and Veras could turn out to be good major league-quality bullpen guys, etc., etc. Now suddenly that’s all been forgotten because Torre and his coaching staff are out the door?! Come on, people…that’s ridiculous!!!
Say what you want about Torre, Bowa, et al., but the fact is it’s the players on the field that win and lose games. Does the coaching staff play a role? Of course, to an extent. However, if you don’t have the right players to manage, it doesn’t mean squat. If we had the KC roster instead of the roster we currently have (even assuming A-Rod, Mo and Jorge all leave!), I find it hard to imagine that everyone would be spending so much time dwelling on the coaching situation as they are now.
Things are changing in Yankeeland. Change happens and you’ve got to embrace it. What exactly is the point of dwelling on the past and predicting doom for the future? It’s time to look to what the future might hold with some sense of hope and/or optimism. Are you primarily fans of Joe Torre and Larry Bowa, or Yankee fans? It it’s the latter, then you shouldn’t be spending the whole offseason talking about the former. Period.
VOIIII
You have to be working for George!!!! Steinbrenner, the best owner in any Sport!! I’d take Eddie DeBartelo from the 49ers during their dynasty years. Eddie spent whatever it took and was loyal to his players, coaches and staff… He would have never let Torre go after a playoff run.
Amen, Chicago Dave.
Interesting…..Bowa is saying a veteran team is harder to manage than a younger team when the team has a bad start like the Yanks did. Veterans are more likely to say “this isn’t our year”.
Tommy: I see your point and I’m watching Bowa. Thanks
I hope the Yankees go after Kerry Wood and/or Fransisco Cordero.
Bowa thinks ARod wants to stay in NY based on conversations he had with him during season… says ARod likes being on the big stage and the attention…
Bowa thinks Yanks should hire Mattingly as he as a lot of respect by the players and can handle the media…
I gotta tell you listening to Bowa on Chris Russo’s show here is awesome… the Bowa knows a lot and I would think the Yankees have to keep him.
Goldberg You are the one who wants it both ways. If yo want to equate wins and great roster with a good manager then you have to equate loss’s and mediocre roster to bad manager. Because I am not a Torre schill does not make me a redsox fan. The reason for change is clear…The Yankees do not respond to Torre’s methods anymore. Getting to the post season with a 200 million dollar payroll should be matter of fact. Getting past the first round should be expected. Unlike some of you Torre loyalist, I root for the laundry not just the current manager and players. Players and managers come and go the Pinstripes live forever.
Sure doesn’t sound like Bowa is a Mariner. Sounds more like his preference is to stay a Yankee. He said he “loves New York”.
For those not listening to him, based on his conversations during the season with ARod he expects him to stay.
Bowa made no mention of Seattle – says he loves NYY and understands if next manager wants a brand new coach staff when he comes in…
Hey VOlll if all it takes is spending 200million to get to the playoffs every team would do it… Fact is it takes a certain type of guy to manage a 200m payroll and looking at the teams left in this thing how many of them have near a 200m payroll? 1?
After listening to Bowa, maybe Manny’s comments were not as off the reservation as the media would have us believe.
I guess the report from the Olympian, which started this thread, was incorrect.
He believes the Yanks can win with Mattingly.
Well – I hope he can stay with NYY if Mattingly manages…
Great interview. Russo got Bowa to say he wants to stay in New York and that Mattingly is the best man to succeed Torre.
Goldberg
Steinbrenner has 10 WS trips under his charge…How many superbowls do the Niners have under Debartelo. And if I remember right Walsh wasn’t exactly treated like gold his last year there.
I think it’s time for us to get past the bungling Levinebrenners and get focused on ‘08.
I’m encouraged by what Bowa said about Mattingly,especially the respect the players have for Donnie Baseball. I’m glad to hear that Mattingly does have a temper at times but is smart enough not to show anybody up in public.
Is the interview over? I just opened up WFAN on my computer and they’re on commercial….
Sorry Andrea, it’s over.
Debartolo has not been involved with the Niners for years. Besides the success of the franchises, George and Eddie Jr. share the distinction of guilt in political corruption and subsequent bans from their sport.
Sorry Andrea, it is.
Boooo! Thanks, Drive 4-5.
“Hey VOlll if all it takes is spending 200million to get to the playoffs every team would do it…”
Oh Really? besides the RedSox, Name one….Spending 200 mil is not the only thing needed that’s correct, spending it wisely makes a difference and during Torre’s era the Yankees for the most part have. Yes there are the Pavanos and the Kevin Browns…But there are also the Cones,the Arods, the Boomers, etc…The point is Torre has had all the tools he’s needed to win. Am I saying every Manager could do this? no…But Torre certainly isn’t the only one who could have or will in the future. Because He is gone does not spell the end for this great franchise. Have some faith in the BrainTrust that has brought you so much over the last 30 years….
Pete: Thanks for your excellent updates and willingness to call it as you see it. Mike Vaccaro seems to be in agreement in today’s NY Post, highlighting (or should we say lowlighting) the big power grab by Randy Levine. As Joe said, it’s a roomful of businessmen, who have apparently delivered the Yankee organization into the hands of a self-seeking politician.
The slow trickle of departures is not a good sign. If these “businessmen” have any sense at all, they won’t play the same games with Mo and Jorge that they did with Andy three years ago. Anyone who wants to downplay what losing them would mean should consider exactly how the Yankees will replace an elite closer whose postseason ERA continues to go down (0.77) AND the best offensive catcher around. Good luck finding that level of production or anything remotely like it on the free agent market at a discount. Levine & Co. had better hope the Yankees get to the World Series at a minimum, because it will take an awful lot of champagne to wash away the stench of this clumsy, vindictive move.
VOIII….I think that was the point.
It’s going to be interesting to see how Cashman deals with the Damon/Giambi/Matsui/Abreu logjam. Someone has to go.
I think the most tradeable one may be Damon. I have no idea about any no trade clauses, but I do know Damon mentioned a resolution to the situation at one point this year. Damon handled the situation wonderfully as far as his attitude in helping the team.
Anyone have any thoughts about signing Tori Hunter? An outfield of Melky in left, Hunter in center and Abreu ( for one more year) in right would be very good.
Oh dear God. We lost a 3rd base coach. What are we ever gonna do?
Someone name me the third base coach of the Rockies, Indians, or Red Sox………….
Does anyone know who Joe Girardi’s coaches were when he was the mgr with the Marlins?
I’d really like to see Hunter come to the Yanks. Problem is if Damon is traded who bats lead off?
I think it would be hard to get rid of both Matsui AND Damon. Might as well accept that one of them will be around. As much as I hate to admit it, I’d rather it be Damon. Unless Matsui’s lack of productin was due to his injuries and he’s better next season.
No, Tori Hunter. The Yankees are done with giving out bad contracts and Hunter is a bad one waiting to happen. His decline will be steep. Damon, Melky and Abreu will probably be the outfield next year with Matsui as the DH. Giambi will probably be an expensive bench player or he might see the light and wish to be traded, along with Mussina.
Bob: Indians 3rd base coach is Joel Skinner, Red Sox is DeMarlo Hale. I don’t know the Rockies. I don’t really know much about the NL.
Drive 4-5:
I would love to see Damon off the Yanks as well.
I disagree with your take on Damon’s handling the situation. I recall him showing initial public displeasure at the reduced playing time. I also recall Damon, after 1 year with team, expressing a desire to switch to 1B/DH. Damon was signed to play CF and lead off.
Added to my irrational/fan discomfort at the sight of prominent Red Sox players in pinstripes, his breakdown is that much harder to swallow.
Tori Hunter may very well be a risk at the amount of money he’ll be asking. He’s a heck of an outfielder though.He’s “only” going to hit around .275 but he does drive in runs. He’ll be 32 in July.
I’d take Rowand over Hunter…
Tommy: I’m not sure where you saw that, but in interviews that I saw, Damon was willing to do whatever it took to help the team, even if that meant being a DH or bench playier.
All,
It was never my intention to bash Torre, I do respect him very much. I just am tired of the negativity and the Steinbrenner bashing. This team’s future is still bright there are still some extremely intelligent Baseball minds at the top of the food chain in Cashman, Michael, and Oppenheimer. There are some very high ceiling prospects at every level in the farm system. They still have the wherewithall to buy any player they want they have a new stadium on the way they have the Yes network…This Doom and Gloom because Torre is no longer in the dugout is insane. I bet dollars to donuts that Donnie gets the job and becomes a great Manager. Everyone who has been around him respects him (Like Torre) Adores him (Like Torre) and will want to play for him (Like Torre) Those of us who watched him day in and day out during his playing days know his work ethic and Baseball intelligence…His peers during his this time use to study him like they were studying the bible. Just watch some tape of the 86 and 87 allstar games and you will see what I mean.
Apparently, very few of you can argue against the points made by VOIII and yankee21 based on the merits.
Instead, you regularly lower yourselves to spitting insults at them in the mistaken belief that the nastier your words, the stronger your argument.
And we’re supposed to believe that you are competent arbiters of class?
I would put Brett Gardener in CF with Melky and Abooboo at the corners if Damon is traded. The common denominator should be Giambi on the bench.
We’ll know a lot more about the ‘08 Yankees on November 10, the deadline for Arod to opt out. I think he’ll stay,but if he doesn’t I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Yanks go after both Hunter and Mike Lowell. They could panic and go back to signing mid 30’s free agents again.
For all his warts, I’m hoping ARod stays. There’s going to be enough controversy with the mangerial situation. We need Arod, Jorge and Mo to stay.We also need to look towards replacing Jorge and Mo long term. They aint getting any younger.
Andrea,
“Bob: Indians 3rd base coach is Joel Skinner, Red Sox is DeMarlo Hale. I don’t know the Rockies. I don’t really know much about the NL.” I’m impressed
EY, thank you. Sometimes truth hurts, and the only way to combat it is to hurl insults at the messengers.
Go back look at all my posts, I’ve never, and I mean never, been against Torre the man. I’ve been against Torre the manager the last 4-5 years. And frankly it gets annoying defending him ad nauseum…
The Yankees are a now team with a mandate to win, now. The Yankees will give player or manager the means for a championship lifestyle, in return, the Yankees simply ask for champion like results.
I thought Damon expressed displeasure initially when his role was diminished. I thought Joe then spun it as bad communication on his part.
Tommy,
I’m not saying I think Damon should be the one to go, only that I think he’s the most tradeable. At this point, Damon may bring more to the game than Matsui.
Matsui was a terrific pickup that Cashman doesnt get enough credit for. But I think he’s really showing signs of wear from playing so many games. I’m not so sure Matsui is the least bit tradeable.
Touche, D 4-5. I’m anti Damon. I admit it.
VOIII: I retain useless information.
“Anyway, Randy 1, you’re the Vince Gennaro guy, right? Torre has lost the Yankees quite a bit of money in the last 3 season by not advancing past the first round, you could argue. You can’t be totally unhappy about this turn of events”
doreen-
gennaro is way ahead of the curve for understanding how investment in players translates into a successful baseball operation. i would have liked to have seen torre bumped up into lifetime advisor for the yankees. he should have been kept in the organization.
that said, if he would have been manager again i would liked to have had a buzzer on him that a trusted friend of his up in the clubhouse could have used to prod him into action when he was slow to respond like with joba and the gnats. it was time for him to move on or to think about moving to another role, but i would have liked it to have been a graceful transition. i’ll add that i have nothing but respect for joe torre.
i notice that no one has provided any links to the steinbrenner sons achievements.
the yankees could make the bat boy the new third base coach and i think half the blog would say since it’s a younger and cheaper move it’s a good one. i don’t need to give the batboy a chance before i say it isn’t going to work. same with the steinbrenner sons.
they just are in over their heads. matter of fact, the batboy might actually have more baseball experience than them.
This is *NOT* true. I just heard Bowa on WFan. He loves NY, doesn’t know if he will be back or not, it all depends on who the next manager is.
Russo on WFAN is now calling for Cashman to be fired.
Drive 4-5, I could have taken offense to your calling my family commies for the common sense that I displayed for hating on Levine, but I appreciate your sense of humor.
I’ll continue to support the Yanks, but I’m counting the days when more stand-up guys with baseball in their blood (i.e., not stadium development lawyers) run the team.
To fans here in NYC, it’s a gorgeous day out and we’re all typing away on this board obsessing over the team. I hope Yankees owners realize how much we care. and I hope most of you are outside on a wireless connection (unfortunately I’m not:-)
This story is not true or maybe has an ounce of truth. Bowa was on WFAN and said he would like to come back he loved his time ehre in New York. he also said that Cash called the coaches and said that he could not promise anything as a new manager may want his own staff.
he also said Mattingly should get the job and is most well equipped for it
I am sure they will have a link to the interview on teh web site
I guess everyone who ripped Bowa can eat their words now. Bowa wants to stay but he really doesn’t have a choice now does he. I wish people would wait for the real info to come out before ripping people a new one.
There was a *KEY* word in the article.
* Among the expected hires for the 2008 staff are Mel Stottlemyre as pitching coach, Jim Riggleman as bench coach, Larry Bowa as third-base coach
The word *expected* and when has the media ever been wrong? HMMM I can think back to two days ago when espn was running around saying that Joe excepted.
edit button please
accepted the contract.
Bowa was great for the Yanks!!! Great 3rd base coach, yelled at the players when they needed it and worked great with Cano on defense and when he falls asleep during the game. Why cant the Yanks just tell Mattingly or Girardi, Bowa is your 3rd base coach???!!! I know the manager usually gets to pick there coach but I doubt that would be a problem with 1 of them not taking the job!!! I really hope he stays. I think with a rookie manager he is really important to the team. Now the Mariners are hoping they will be winners if they build there coaching staff with old yanks…haha
“I am willing to give the Yankees brass the benefit of the doubt, after all the multi-millions the Yankees brass has forked over to make us fans root for a championship caliber team year in and year out.”
Are you really that naive? Where do they get these “multi-millions” from in the first place?
The fans.
Calling Larry Bowa a good third base coach on the basis that runners were never thrown out a home is a mistake.
It only means that he was too conservative.
Actually a good third base coach knows when to gamble and on a few occasions would gamble and lose.
So there is a good possibility Joe Torre could rejoin Mel and Larry in Seattle. His home in Hawaii a short flight to the Pacific NW. And then they will sign Mo.
If you watch, he does take chances when he knows they have a chance to beat it out.
Would you rather have Sojo out there? He took many chances and always got guys thrown out.
I love food fights
The acrimony here is as enjoyable as a Marx Bros. crescendo!
Harpo! Drop that chair!
I’m gonna hit the replay button, it’s that hopin.
_His home in Hawaii a short flight to the Pacific NW._
maps lie.
it’s a 5 hour flight from Pearl Harbor to Puget Sound
_Russo on WFAN is now calling for Cashman to be fired._
Russo and Francesa = professional wrestling