It’s no pinstriped paradise
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Oct 20, 2007 
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Two guys I have a lot of respect for defined the new world of the Yankees today. Read what Bob Klapisch of The Record wrote.
Then check out Mike Vaccaro in the Post.
Anger always fades. But the alienation of Joe Torre could be something that haunts Randy Levine and the Tampa Trio for a while. They are getting slammed everywhere. It took less than three weeks for the Yankees to go from a heartwarming tale of a wildcard revival to a pack of evil clowns who kicked kindly Papa Joe out the door.
You know what’s amazing (not to get all John Sterling on you) but there is almost always a contrarian in the media crowd, somebody who goes against the grain. But I have yet to see anybody who thinks getting rid of Torre, especially the way they did, was a good idea.
It’s all perception and spin, of course, and the Yankees are taking their lumps for now. “We’re licking our wounds,” somebody told me yesterday.
And it’s going to continue for a while. The Yankees need to get somebody signed and in front of a podium fast.
as a torre suporter and someone who cant stand the way the yankees handled the entire situation, the one positive thing for torre in all this is that he comes out looking more like a hero than someone who was fired. Torre, atleast for the foreseable future, is still one of the most popular figures in the entire city.
Michael Kay was all for it. I thought his explanation of the pay cut made a little sense. The last contract was signed on 2004, just off the 03 World Series, but after the Red Sox collapse. 3 years, 20 million. The Yanks didnt see a need to give Joe a raise or to even continue the same pay scale. Based on the last 3 years of playoff disappointment, they felt a paycut was in order.
I understand both sides of the coin, but I will say that Michael Kay’s explanation was very fair.
Pete,
did something go on with torre that we dont know about? The more i think about this entire situation, the more confused i get as to why in the world this all happened. The yankees made a big mistake, and the only ones who dont seem to realize that are the steinbrenners and levine.
You must not read Joel Sherman, Pete.
Why is everyone harping on this pay cut issue? Joe said it wasn’t the pay cut. It was the years.
I saw somewhere that Yankees announcer Michael Kay on his ESPN radio show yesterday seemed 2 think the deal was fair from the Yankees & that Joe Torre might have made a bad decision not taking it.Could he have said that because he works 4 the Yankees.
Pete,
You have Joel Sherman, Michael Kay and Jon Heyman that didn’t have a problem with letting Torre go.
this team is the new york yankees, forget what the MSM says. i am sick of people treating this team like its the goddamn devil rays.
papa joe, the king of diminishing returns was offered the 7 million a year after he had just been in the world series and before the historic collapse. you think we should give that guy more money or the same deal? its like oh yeah joe, listen, we know u choked in 04 and you haven’t gotten out of the first round in 3 years… but we will give u 7.5 million anyway. its ridiculous. they wanted him back, but not at a “world series joe” price.
if 5 million dollars with an automatic 8 million dollar second year option when he reaches the world series is an insult, then he is done coaching because no one will give him 5 million, let alone 7.5. its been fun joe, but we haven’t won sh** in 7 years.
First, on behalf of my wife I’d like to thank the techies for taking down the website a short while ago. The grass got cut and the back porch was swept.
For those of us old enough to remember the Yankees of ’79 – ’92, doesn’t this feel like deja vu all over again?
“You know what’s amazing (not to get all John Sterling on you) but there is almost always a contrarian in the media crowd, somebody who goes against the grain. But I have yet to see anybody who thinks getting rid of Torre, especially the way they did, was a good idea.”
You’re wrong as usual. Joel Sherman, Michael Kay and Murray Chass all understood the situation and do not fault the Yankees.
Oh, but you know who agrees with you, Pete? Chris Russo, John Kruk and Steve Phillips.
You’re in great company. Congrats.
Randy Levine is now finally out of the foxhole, out from behind the curtain. He will regret stepping out of the shadows as legions of victims of the Rudy Giuliani Administration come forward to talk about being strong-armed, manhandled and intimidated into submission while Randy and a couple of other deputy mayors ran roughshod over NYC. Nobody remembers that right before 9-11, people were ready to run Rudy and his crew out of town on a rail. 9-11 remade Rudy at a time when his popularity could not have been lower.
I just wonder how much Rudy went to bat for his friend Joe Torre with former employee Randy Levine, outside of a single public statement? Or was this a case of Randy making it clear to Rudy that the hit was approved, it was none of Rudy’s business and “don’t get in the way.” Really, why haven’t we heard from straight-talking Rudy about how this was handled? Because it was Rudy who taught Randy how to do this kind of thing.
Where’s this fabled “angry fan base” supposedly indignant over the “alienation” of joe torre I keep hearing about–primarily on this blog?
At least 2/3 of other blogs (nomaas, replacement level etc) and fans all seem at best indifferent, if not ecstatic, to me.
Gotta love non sequiturs.
murphydog,
On behalf of my wife and myself….perfect!
The Joe Torre part of this is done. Whether it was good or bad, it’s over. The keys things now are: (1) who is running the team? (2) who will be the manager? (3) what players will be lost or added?
The first and third things are tied together, because it impacts whether Mo, Jorge, and Andy return and it impacts who we get in free agency. There are some horrible free agents this year — overrated guys like Andruw Jones who will kill their new teams for years. My gut tells me that Mo, Jorge, and Andy are outta here. Pete — any rumors about those guys? I think the Cubbies need a closer and a catcher.
It sure seems like Randy Levine is running the show now. Based on his statement that he was “stunned” by Torre’s rejection, there are only two possibilities — he’s a liar or he’s an idiot. How could any smart person think Torre would take that deal? It doesn’t matter if you or I thought it was a good idea. You had to know that Torre would never take it. If Levine did know that, he’s lying. If he didn’t know that, he’s an idiot. Either way, I already miss Big Stein.
No matter what happens, we have some great young pitchers to watch next year. But the playoffs are not guaranteed, and I worry that the “braintrust” of the Yanks is going to make some dumb free agent decisions this year.
Michael Kay doesn’t count.
“Michael Kay doesn’t count.”
Why? Before this whole thing went down, Kay proposed the Yankees offer Torre a one-year deal. Well that’s what they did, and Torre walked away precisely because of it. Kay knows the Yankees as well, or better than anyone – certainly better than Pete. So it’s not surprising that he “gets it.” It’s also not surprising that Pete failed to do any research before writing “I have yet to see anybody who thinks getting rid of Torre, especially the way they did, was a good idea.”
Oh, and on the national media side, both Kornheiser and Wilbon said they were sick of all the BS talk about “respect” and money and faulted Joe for turning down the deal.
Levine’s no idiot.
Hey Pete, I know it’s going to be a long winter, but this time had to come at some point. This team will rebound and as long as they hire someone “in-house” then things will get better. I don’t like how the Yankees handled this, but it was time to move on. As far as the “Midges” game, that defined alot for me as far as Torre managed that series. That was the defining moment for me. Not going to the mound to at least confront the situation was wrong. Yanks went from 1-1 to 0-2. Cost him his job cause the Yanks might have gone on the play the Sox. Who knows, but it could’ve been different for Joe to stand up for the team that night.
My vote is for Joe Girardi. The Yanks will rebound from this!!
Michael Kay works for the team.
Joel Sherman, in fact, has written the Yankees should have retained Joe at whatever cost. he thinks Joe should have accepted their offer. Try reading him again. He was the person who asked Levine directly why they didn’t do more to keep their first choice as manager.
I just don’t like Michael Kay. I love him when I have to listen to TBS, and of course I miss the Fox and ESPN announcers when I have to listen to TBS as well. I was just being snarky.
Drive 4-5:
Thanks. But hey… don’t wait until the blog goes down again to take care of the stuff around the house. Any wife who lets you play on the blog once you are old enough to have a wife should be well taken care of ; )
Pete I suspect you’ve been making too many appearances on espn; spending too much time with Kruk, Olney, Phillips, and the sundry idiots who give Torre waaay too much credit, all the while being underqualified for analyzing little league stats.
I don’t know if its peer pressure or what…but the blog has really jumped the shark when it comes to patently false blanket statements (“But I have yet to see anybody who thinks getting rid of Torre, especially the way they did, was a good idea”) and non sequiturs (“angry fan base”) the last few days.
“Michael Kay works for the team and has for years. Do you really expect him to say something different?”
Michael Kay has never shied away from criticizing the Yankees. He also has works for ESPN. If he felt the Yankees messed up, he would have said it. But in fact, they did just what he recommended they do in a YES mailbag prior to this whole thing going down- offer Torre a one-year deal. Obviously his opinion on the matter is genuine.
I do not give a damn about what all these media vultures make it to be.
See, there were worse things happened and people got over them. Remember that colossal choke against the Redsox, under St. Joe’s leadership after leading 3-0 in the ALCS? Didn’t we get over it? The media blasted Joe at that time and didn’t they start loving him again? These media vultures are simply opportunists and I recognize they have no choice unless they are working for a New York times (Tyler Kepner’s reporting was very balanced in this Torre saga…)
These media vultures are milking every drop of this story to sell their papers. It will be an old story in a few days and they will have no choice but to move on to something else.
I always want to think positive about the future. During this season, when majority gave up on the team, I kept maintaining that we will make it the playoffs and I am glad we made it. I am not happy we did not make it past the first round for the last three years and change is required. This has nothing to do with Joe’s past success, though I do bleieve he was at the right place at the right time.
I have no doubt we will do better next year with a better tactical manager. The team is not expected to change much if all the FAs return. With the same team, if the new manager takes them past ALDS, it will be strong evidence that Joe was not the great manager he is made out to be by every body. I recognize that we would not know taht for another 12 months. I will be around here and would like to see what every one, including media, will have to say if that happens, including Pete here.
Go Yankees. Future will be better than the last three years.
As for Sherman, he wrote:
“Or you might consider that [Torre's] contract was done. He was a free agent, like Jorge Posada and Mariano Rivera. But unlike Rivera and Posada, there are not teams out there that are going to pay Torre close to what he was making or even what the Yanks were offering now. In other words, $5 million is no insult as long as Torre decided it was no insult.”
Pete,
Then what about Heyman or Chass?
wang is not an ace and phil hughes is not a mlb pitcher:
Kruk, Olney, Phillips …. underqualified for analyzing little league stats.
Oh, OK. You’re smarter than they are. Anything else?
“As far as the “Midgesâ€? game, that defined alot for me as far as Torre managed that series. That was the defining moment for me. Not going to the mound to at least confront the situation was wrong.”
The defining moments for me were when the Yanks’ best pitcher got knocked out of both of his starts in disgrace, and their game three pitcher couldn’t get through the third either. This is why the team lost, not because of bugs. The pitching put them behind the eight ball over and over again, the hitters pressed and started swinging at bad pitches knowing that they were about to be declared failures despite all the wonderful things they’d done for the whole second half.
If the Yanks want to win again, it’s time they redefine the expectations. Cranking up the pressure is exactly the wrong thing to do, but Levine and co have managed to do it. It’s idiocy, but apparently they ascribe to the heads-must-roll management style.
buck showalter, stick and bob watson made the yankees what they were in the dynasty days. bye bye torre hope cashmans next.
“I have no doubt we will do better next year with a better tactical manager.”
On field tactics are the least important part of the Yankee manager’s job.
If Andy, Mo, Jorge and Alex return (which is MUCH more in doubt than it would be if Joe was the manager), then next year’s team has a shot to do better because Clemens and a rotating cast of mediocre rookies will have been replaced with legitimate high-upside young pitchers. If next year’s team does better, THAT will be the deciding factor. Not on-field tactics.
“For those of us old enough to remember the Yankees of ‘79 – ‘92, doesn’t this feel like deja vu all over again?”
I am old enough to remember the Yankees of the Lates 50′s. I’ve been through the lean years – the terrible CBS years, the mediocre 80′s when the blueprint was overpaid free agents and no farm system.
The Yankee Organization of today – with a Top 5 farm system, loads of MLB talent, 4 Million plus fans in the seats, a successful sports television network, an endless money trail of merchandising, in no way resemble the ’79-’92 Yankees!
the yankees made joe torre not vice versa.
The Press conference confirms that Joe is a fake, phony and a fraud.
If they didn’t want to keep Joe as manager, fine. We know all the pluses and minuses of that argument.
But it’s the stupidity of the handling of it that boggles my mind.
How could they think this would not blow up in their collective face? Are they that PR naive?
There’s been several posts here, and mention in some newspaper articles, of other, better ways this split could have been handled. Make Joe an offer of special advisor (heck, Reggie Jackson does it), part-time YES analyst, whatever, at enough money (they have it to burn) so that Joe is happy, and be done with it. No agita. No grief. Everybody’s happy.
Except someone, obviously, wouldn’t be happy with that. That has to be why it wasn’t done that way, and why Joe Torre was shown the door in the way that he was. Somebody had it in for Joe, somebody with enough influence to convince the Steinbrenners to do it this particular way.
If George still reads the NY papers about him and his team, he can’t be happy. I wonder what steps he will take to restore his “good” name. I hope he does, because this Yankee fan wants Joe Torre back in the fold – if not as manager, then as “special advisor”. It’s the right thing to do.
lets see how well joe torre does on his new team.
Wow, once again a lack of critical reading is evident. Go read Sherman and Chass again (and as an employee I am afraid Kay is DQed on this issue). Chass shows his lack of understanding when he says: “Torre expected more from the Yankees, but they expected more from him the past seven years and didn’t get it.” And this man writes for the “paper of record”? Does he not remember the twilight between championships? Too many people on this blog apparently do not.
Neither man clearly states that the Yankees handled this as well as they should have or could have. There is a lot of other fine analysis out there regarding this issue, with the ulimate point being that the Yankees will not realize just what they are missing until we see some clubhouse controversy.
Ask Michael Kay if he would take a 33% base paycut….and his new salary would be incentive based with his radio ratings. He knows who signs his paycheck.
Bob Michaels: why is that?
yawn
Buoyed by his adoring press, Mr.Class and Dignity incarnate plays the victim card, calls 5 million dollars an insult, and trashes the organization that resurrected his career and showered him with riches and fame, hinting that he just may sulk for the next 15 years or more. People eat it up. Only in America.
““Torre expected more from the Yankees, but they expected more from him the past seven years and didn’t get it.â€? And this man writes for the “paper of recordâ€?? Does he not remember the twilight between championships? Too many people on this blog apparently do not.”
Jimbo-
That’s your judgment, based on the fact that you believe Torre deserved more. Clearly the Yankees, and probably Chass because of his column, disagree with you. That does not equal “lack of understanding.”
The truth is all of the “Yankees will not realize just what they are missing until we see some clubhouse controversy.” nonsense flying around on Mike and the Maddog and this blog is empty and meaningless rhetoric. Apparently you feel nobody in the world is qualified to manage the New York Yankees, aside from a 67 year old man. What happens when he dies? Put his ashes in a uniform and have Mattingly walk the urn out to the mound to make pitching changes?
Bob Michaels: Your comment confirms that you’re an idiot troll.
THIS ISN’T ABOUT MONEY!!!!!!!
Brian Cashman on the Mariano contract flare-up said this spring that the Yankees are very good at writing checks and they keep who they want to keep. They don’t lose people over money. He even used the Andy Pettitte example of Andy not going to Houston because the contract was better. That is the kind of thing what makes the whole Torre issue look so bad for ownership. They wouldn’t man up enough to say thank you, we appreciate what you did for this team but it’s time to move on. That’s what professionals do. That’s what George Steinbrenner would have done 10 years ago. Instead they played a game and in the process thought us all fools who would buy into it. Randy Levine is a labor relations specialist. If he was truly shocked, he’s not a very good one.
The people who think it is all doom and gloom are wrong too. The Yankees are rich in baseball minds. The are developing young talent, they have the financial standing to make deals happen and they have a group of veteran players that understand playing in NY. The only way this becomes doom and gloom is if the business people are allowed to override the baseball people. If this is a baseball franchise and not Yankees Corp., the business people need to set the budget, crunch the numbers and get out of the way.
Randy Levine is not the face of the franchise that needs to be speaking to the media and the fans. He should save his rhetoric for the corporate sponsors, bankers and shareholders. Brian Cashman is more valuable to the team now more than he has ever been. He should ask for an extension now. He is going to need to be the face of this team until at least Spring Training. He is one of the 2 front office people that Torre had anything nice to say about on his way out the door. The other was George but he’s in no condition to be the face of anything. Basic PR101: Put your best face forward and focus on your strengths. Right now that’s Cash and the quicker he can get a manager hired and free agents signed, the quicker people will start thinking about 2008.
“Oh, but you know who agrees with you, Pete? Chris Russo, John Kruk and Steve Phillips.”
That is hilarious but true!!!!!
Anybody’s who’s handle is “Phil Hughes is not a major league pitcher” loses me there. That’s when I stop reading.
I’m not going to criticize other writers. I’m just saying that a vasty majority of credible writers are against this move. I knows there’s a kneejerk reaction among blindly loyal fans to hate the media, which is fine. My point is that objective professionals who are around the organization daily and know the people involved think it was a bad idea.
I guess we’ll see. But I really don’t see how the Yankees get better with a less experienced manager.
Anyway, I’m headed out. Too nice a day to dwell on this any longer.
Michael Kay does work for the Yankees, just like Boston Globe sportswriter Gordon Eades works for the Red Sox and NESN. Neither of their opinions should be taken for anything other than public relations.
Peter,
I am just as bummed out and disgusted as the next guy but, I think it is time to move on. Do you think if you keep piling on it will somehow get Randy fired? Please turn the page.
DM, did micheal kay have the biggest choke in ratings history 3 years ago and then get ratings lower than he had before he signed his current deal? because then yeah espn would say hey mike umm we gotta cut ur deal a lil, ur not who u used to be, if u still are, you can make the same money with the insentives, if not then yeh…
Have a good one Pete. You’re right, it is a nice day. Can’t put off the yard chores any loger:)Cya
“Michael Kay does work for the Yankees, just like Boston Globe sportswriter Gordon Eades works for the Red Sox and NESN. Neither of their opinions should be taken for anything other than public relations.”
When has Kay said anything that even closely resembled anything other than substantive analysis – positive or negative? The man is anything but a shill for the Yankees. Do discredit his opinion because he works for YES network and because he happens to disagree with you is a joke.
Charlie-
Regarding Chass, his “lack of understanding” of the modern game is not up for argument. This is a man who has criticized the use of statistics in determining a players worth to a team. He is not just old school, he is uninformed about the modern game and refuses to change. I never said that Torre deserved more. But I do believe he deserved better, as do many sportswriters and other fans of the game. They did this the wrong way and now they are paying the price.
Is there some percentage of sports writers and baseball analysts that need to agree with Pete and Bob Klapisch before people finally get it?
It seems to me that many of the sportswriters must have enjoyed the Yankees poor performance in the postseason the last seven years. Hopefully the Yankees will learn from the Dbacks, Marlins, Rockies, and Indians that you don’t need an overpaid aging superstar at every position with an overpaid manager playing his favorites. Torre is gone, get over it, let’s move on. GO YANKEES!!!!!
Here’s a question to ponder.
What if the Steinbrenners approached Randy Levine with the following offer when his own contract was up. Levine will take a 33% pay cut. He’ll take a one year deal. He’ll be required to demonstrate a bottom line 10% or better than 07 before a second year is even considered. And then when he asks, “are these the final terms? Can we negotiate this?” He’s told, “take or leave it,” “there’s the door.” Only then Levine will understand what just happened.
Yes, it was time for Joe to go. That Levine expresses surprise is probably the truth. Guys like this just don’t get it. They see popular and successful men as rivals, not as allies whose success actually makes their own job easier. Being around someone like Torre who is so self-assured-makes men like Levine nervous and fearful. They want them out and then surround themselves with sycophantic brown-nosers who make them feel important.
It wasn’t that Joe was let go, it was how Joe was let go. And until the Steinbrenners and Levine get this, there will be many more self-inflicted wounds to lick.
Make tough calls. We understand that this comes with the territory. Yankees fans just want the Tampa boys to go about this the right way. And they didn’t.
“I’m just saying that a vasty majority of credible writers are against this move. I knows there’s a kneejerk reaction among blindly loyal fans to hate the media, which is fine. My point is that objective professionals who are around the organization daily and know the people involved think it was a bad idea.”
The media also has a tendency to sway toward knee-jerk reactions. Such as 1995, when the Showalter situation and Torre hiring yielded nearly the exact same responses from the media! How ironic. And it was to such an extent that after Torre was hired, the back pages nearly talked Steinbrenner out of his decision! Anyway, we all know how that managerial change worked out.
Generally, as in this case, the media has the lack of foresight to grasp more than one side of the equation- the angle is negative, so there’s no chance of anything positive coming from a managerial change.
Jimbo-
You’re right about Chass. But this column and his opinion on this matter has virtually nothing to do with sabermetrics.
“Is there some percentage of sports writers and baseball analysts that need to agree with Pete and Bob Klapisch before people finally get it?”
Yes, a higher percentage than that which called Torre’s hiring just as stupid as they’re calling Torre’s firing.
The media’s opinion, as was proved in 1995, amounts to nothing.
Regardless of who the next manager happens to be, they’ll be dissenters.
You could pave the streets of the Bronx in 24 karat gold and somebody will complain about the glare.
Oh, poor Joe…he was insulted. Did he think managing the Yankees was his inalienable right…forever?
Joe showed us what he is really about…less work, more security, more money, and no accountability. That is the Joe Torre era in a nutshell.
Joe was a mediocre manager who stepped in crap by getting the Yankees job. Everything was aligned for him to succeed. (1) The Yankees were on the cusp of greatness when Joe arrived as 1995 was a breakthrough season. (2) Williams, Jeter, Posada, and Rivera were on, or coming on the scene. (3) The Yankees began YES Network and were rolling in money. Joe had the highest paid or close to the highest paid squad every year. Joe is a poor manager that got a lucky break. His one value to the team was to be a buffer between the team and King George. That has worn thin as the players are too comfortable and do not play hard for Joe. Joe is probably the worst in game manager that I have ever seen manage.
People talk about Joe’s class, which is so over-rated. How many times did he throw players like Alex Rodgiguez under the bus? I truly believe if Joe were still the manager, Alex would leave, no matter what. This class stuff is b.s. anyway. Is King George classy, was Billy Martin? To me classy also could mean lifeless.
So good bye Joe…take your crying, kumbaiya act somewhere else.
I love Joe. I respect Joe. I think Joe was a great manager.
But the way the Yankees went about their business has beatified him. Plain and simple. The same people who wanted to run Joe out of town are the same people who are defending him now because the Yankees hierarchy became the villains. Joe deserved respect (and more then a lameduck one year deal, but there would never have been this type of public outcry if he had just been let go a day or two after the elimination.
Oh and Charlie? Don’t put words in my mouth. If you read a little better (and admittedly there have been many posts on this subject) you would see that I never said I wanted Torre back. He has to leave sometime, but they way he leaves was important. ASsfor what the Yankees will miss, go read some more papers and blogs. Read Vaccaro. There is little doubt that Torre kept this team together in very difficult times. They may not call those “in game” or tactical skills but they matter. Just look at the Dodgers for a contrast.
You just do not get it — they had a chance to do this the right way. They blew it. Lots of professional baseball analysts (of which Kornheiser and Wilbon most certainly are not) certainly agree.
i see it the way peter does. this will haunt the architects of torre’s ouster for a while. i’ve been saying since the spring when the anoited leader of the yankees ,steven swindall .thought that taking a little detour to visit the seamy side of st pete that yankee leadership wasn’t doing it’s job.
george obviously thought swindall was a better man to run the yankees. what does that say about what he thought of hal and hank? it’s just nespotism. it’s like election results, you don’t have to get in all of the results before you can make a projection. these guys are baseball lightweights. they are now and they will be later.
we will probably one month from now be discussing either losing arod,posada, or rivera.
cashman is between a rock and a hard place now. he has a long range plan, but a one year contract. he now has to save face for organization in the short run while setting up the long run. but if he doesn’t do everything right in damage control for what’s happened in the last week, than he’s in danger of getting fired himself. after all if ownership screws up, it’s easier to blame it on the gm instead of themselves.
I always see a lot of “Clueless Joe” references here. Go back and look at the headline. It wasn’t so much a knock on Torre that he was clueless about baseball. It was a knock on the Yankees that Torre didn’t know what he was getting himself into coming to manage here.
I don’t think anyone really suggests that Joe Torre made the team what it was, nor did Torre suggest it. He said he was lucky in 1996 to have come in and won a championship. Torre wouldn’t have gone to 12 consecutive postseasons without the team he was given. But on the same token, I’m not sure the Yankees would have gone to 12 consecutive postseasons with another manager, or with some kind of revolving door progression of managers.
Yeah sure, Randy Levine is pacing up and down in his office like a caged lion and wondering what people think of him.
So i havnt posted anything since the yanks were eliminated cause i needed to decompress.
here are a few points:
- its a no-win situation for the yanks in this case. there is no way they could get rid or torre and come out looking good. everyone would bash them regardless of how they did it.
- mattingly will be a better NY Manager as the vet players will respect him and play hard for him.. it would be hard for girardi to have the same respect from the vets as he was someone they played along side with and is more a “friend” then their leader.
- girardi is probably better tactical/technical manager, and proved he works well with the young guys. it would be great if he could be bench coach.. but i doubt he takes that
- you need girardi or pena as bench coach. thats critical
- anyway torre can stay on as an advisor .. it would put the new manager in a horrible position though .
- with so many young guys now on team. really its pettite, jeter, mo and posada that are the old school torre guys.. no one else has true ties to torre.. so putting a new guy to work wtih all the young guys is not a bad deal
- dont forget.. torre was nothing special before he came to new york.. good players can make a coaches look like a genius
Pete, when he got on that plane he knew what the score was, it was 7 to 0 and no wiggle room, last year when Madden of the Daily News broke the story after the loss to the Tigers, he called George and asked to at least finish his contract. Well the contract was over and the Yankees at least offered him the 5 million guaranteed with the promise of more, he turned his nose up at that and as nice as Joe is personally in the deep recesses of his mind he just had enough, jusdt say it and why bother to fly down to Tampa. If he wanted to stay invovled don`t burn the bridges. the Fans for the most part loved the guy even those of us who were critical of his bullpen management He became a wealthy man, so he can do what he wants, we all should be so lucky.
These are some of the most arrogant comments I’ve ever read on here, so arrogant that I’m convinced if you do an IP check, 75% are coming from levine@yankees.com.
Listen, was it time for Torre to go? Maybe, maybe not. The point is that there is a right way and a wrong way to handle this. Regardless of your views of Joe Torre as a manager, the man is viewed as an icon from a PR standpoint (and apparently in that locker room.)
Good business isn’t always about the bottom line, it’s about managing your human resources and your perception, and the Yankees franchise just took a major “L” on this one.
Andrea, you make a valid point. I just got so tired of Joe that I wanted him gone. But I do remember the craziness years of a new manager every week; hopefully that does not happen again. That’s the Yankees…one extreme or the other.
The Yankees did the right thing but they did it badly.
Maybe (hopefully) this will lead to Levine’s departure.
It does not matter how many people criticized the move to hire Torre in 1995. It does not matter how many would have liked to see him removed and are now critical of the way it was handled. What matters is that the Yankees have been enjoying a beautiful 12 year run, and they just threw Torre under the bus. Perception is reality.
Again bringing up Chass — he ends his article by basically saying Torre had to go for not winning the Series in the last seven years. That is moronic. And it unfortunately an idea that many on this blog share.
Yes the Yankee infrastructure is better than it was in 79-92. But Torre certainly had something to do with that.
The media’s opinion helps to shape fan opinion around the country. It does not amount to nothing, else why are we debating this?
I believe if they wanted Torre gone, we could sit down over a cold beer and come up with a better way to do it than the front office of the Yankees did.
Paul Calta: I’m not saying it was or was not time for a new manager. But people are talking like Torre either deserves all the credit or no credit for the wrold series wins and it’s getting kind of absurd.
“You just do not get it—they had a chance to do this the right way. They blew it. Lots of professional baseball analysts (of which Kornheiser and Wilbon most certainly are not) certainly agree.”
What difference does it make how they went about it? One opinion says they gave Torre more than he deserved – a third chance – especially after almost getting fired last year. The other says they were insulting to him by low-balling him. If you’re of the latter, I assume you’ll stop rooting for the Yankees then?
World Series, not wrold. Edit Button!
Listen…Its very simple…The yanks, for whatever reason did not want Joe back. They were afraid their image would take a hit if they fired, so they put together this bullsh*t offer, knowing Torre would refuse it. If the Yanks REALLY wanted Joe back, they would have joe back. Who in their right mind doest allow a hall of fame manager to at least counter-offer with a diff proposal…oh a team that doesnt want him does that….it should all make sense.
Good, bad …honestly there was no good way to do this. Was offering Joe $5 mil plus incentives so bad. He needed to be held accountable. Now he is the victim. Please!
Pete,
The media hounds have all become mind readers now, did they? Were any of you in the room when the Yankke braintrust were making the decision to offer torre 5 million dollars? How do you all know that this was a ploy and and attempt to save face? To ASS-U-ME is not fair and borders on slander.To the guy who asks Michael Kay to take a 335 pay cut with incentives I say this. Will Kay still be making 20% more than any of his peers? I think he would take it…To all You Torre defenders all say it is not about the Money it’s about the Years and the commitment. The Yankees have commited 80 million dollars and 12 years to Joe Torre…They Made him what he is today, The ensured his enshrinement to the HOF, They Got him his first WS ring…You all say, well Torre got them to the post season 12 strait years like He’s responsible for it. Well then how come he is responsible for the trips to the post season but not responsible for the embarrasing collapses the last 5 years? Then you say I can’t cut it both ways?
Wrong again Pete.
Joel Sherman, Heyman, and Chass all remember Clueless Joe was a mediocre manager before he came to the big budget veteran laden Yankees.
Sherman’s only point was that Torre was the best guy for the job. Not the ONLY guy for the job. Too bad the Torre fanboys don’t realize it would take an idiot to not lead a team, with a $60 to $160 million dollar advantage over every team in baseball, to the playoffs every year.
Once the manager is name, very few are going to care about Joe Torre. That will kill Joe’s ego.
Paul Calta
October 20th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
Good, bad …honestly there was no good way to do this. Was offering Joe $5 mil plus incentives so bad. He needed to be held accountable. Now he is the victim. Please!
It is a big deal. A 1 yr deal? He cant be a lame duck all year long. His players would put added pressure on themselves cuz they would feel they r playing for Joe’s job. If they really wanted him they would do the same deal…doubled and over 2 years.
Torre is responsible for the play-off losses. He mismanaged almost every game since 2004. His deficiencies are hidden by a good team in the regular season but the post season i=s different, especially the 3 out of five.
“You’re wrong as usual. Joel Sherman, Michael Kay and Murray Chass all understood the situation and do not fault the Yankees.”
I don’t know if you’ve noticed through his YES broadcasts, but MK will NEVER bite the hand that feeds him. If you think that means his opinions are still objective, then have at it.
I’ve been reading Murray Chass for years, his take on things was absolutely predictable and consistent with his take on the Yankees since I’ve been reading him. I expected him to write that.
Joel Sherman wrote THE DAY BEFORE that the Yankees should do everything they could to keep him. I dont know about you, but such an abrupt turn-about in the space of 24 hours, I find it hard to take anything he might write seriously from now on.
Lte’s recap….Over 4 million in home attendence, over 4 million in road attendence, 12 straight postseason invitations, the envy of all Proffesional Sport Franchises…….Something must be wrong, time to re-invent the wheel…….The shame is, the transition of power could have been quite smooth with continued success…..Wow, I wonder how it will turn out when Suits and beancounters run the Operation as the Baseball people carry out their instructions…..Oh yeah,I remember 1964,that’s when the CBS suits ran Yogi out of town, and a businssman / politicain ran the team……Remember Mike Burke……
murphydog @ October 20th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
Well said and a very good question.
Speaking of the media, Has ESPN issued any aplogies or EXPLANATIONS of how they so BADLY & INEXCUSEABLY bungled the resolution of the Torre situation. They had crawlers on TV announcing that Torre had AGREED to a new conract & an announcement would be formally made later, when lo & behold he had DECLINED the offer. Why is ESPN so silent & why is NO-ONE calling them on it? They deserve to be skewered, & if any of their OWN alleged journalists had any integrity they should be at the forefront. I wish folks were more concerned about being accurate than first.
Jimbo, What makes you so sure the Yankees weren’t sincere in their offer? Were you in the room when they made the decision? Also, How did Torre help set up the Infrastructure? Did he draft the new kids? did he hire Oppenheimer? did he restore the scouting dept? He is the product of the system not the otherway around it is the Yankees who made him a HOFer not he who made the Yankees the most envied franchise in sports.
Paul
Yeah there was a good way to do this. Be honest about it. Say to Joe the team is in transition mode and it was time for a new voice. Thank him for all he had done and move on. People/companies do it all the time. Not everyone would agree with the decision, there would have been debate about it but management wouldn’t have appeared spineless in the process. In NY, perception plays as big a role as reality.
I truly believe that most people on this blog know baseball and the Yankees very well. I can tell by the comments, whether we agree or disagree that we all know the game.
I also truly feel any one of us, given the same resources as Joe Torre had over the last 12 years could have accomplished or exceeded what Joe did. Any of us could manage a team with the greatest stars in the game.
The comments made here all year long about strategy and such prove to me that any and all of us are smarter managers that Joe Torre.
Here is a question to ponder from a pr point of view amd have been thinking about this since the conference call. What would the reaction have been if Brian Cashman was the one who handled the call (ie was the spokesperson and made the announcement) and it not be Randy Levine who like him or not at the VERY least is not well suited for press conferences and public speaking and being the one that all the reporters questions were targeted at for the most point? OR by having Randy Levine be the supposed bad guy does it take some of the media attention away from Cashman. Again none of us were in that room but I have heard on ESPN Radio (from Michael Kay mind you) that ALL those present in the room including Cashman, anmd Stick were in favor of this contract as well as not moving from the contract. We may find out that not to be the case but….
I agree Joe had to go, the way they did it not great. I just would not have brought him back and cut ties, much less messy then they way this turned out. The way they announced it and who did the announcing horrible, horrible.
Tucson Ken,
The newark star ledger originally reported Joe was flying to Tampa to accept the deal. ESPN beleived the story and ran with it. You cant really blame them, as far as sports news go The Star-ledger is semi-credible…
Torre was a mediocre and losing manager before he was a Yankee manager. This is a fact. He didn’t become a wonderful manager because he was a Yankee, he had the perfect setup in a team rich in talent because of Stick and Watson and because Steinbrenner was largely absent due to the suspension then. And until recently the Yanks were bringing in the likes of Giambi and Sheffield rather than continue that formula of developing from within. Now with Cashman in charge they’re clearly doing that. I’m really tired of people giving Torre tons of credit for 4 Ringsâ„¢ but ignoring the failures in the postseason. You can’t have it both way kids.
A few points: I was a baseball fan in the 70s and 80s. Torre was not a clueless manager. He had some really mediocre teams. We can debate all day about who deserves credit for winning and losing, but it is pointless. The managers (just like politicians) always get credit when things go well, and they take blame when things go wrong.
Charlie, the point about “how they went about it” speaks volumes about the front office’s feelings for Torre. All those sportswriters are debating this, as are we. If the Yanks had done a better job they would not be paying a price with people bad-mouthing the Yankees. Much of the press jumps at the chance to do that anyway, why give them extra ammunition?
I have been a fan too long to count. I remember what Stein did to Yogi. I don’t like it when the team I love shows such classlessness and cluelessness. I thought they were smarter and better than that. I guess I hate finding out that I was wrong. We will all get over it but we won’t forget.
The best way for Joe Torre to say FU is to win a world series with another team..
Jimbo, What makes you so sure the Yankees weren’t sincere in their offer? Were you in the room when they made the decision? Also, How did Torre help set up the Infrastructure? Did he draft the new kids? did he hire Oppenheimer? did he restore the scouting dept? He is the product of the system not the otherway around it is the Yankees who made him a HOFer not he who made the Yankees the most envied franchise in sports.
They weren’t sincere…..in most negotiations when one side says no, the other side says “What can we do to get this done?” Nothin like that was said, it was take it or leave it….Face it the yaanks did not want Torre and they certianly went the wrong way about doing it. And u can look it up Joe said this is how it went down and I believe him.
i shoulda put that in quotes hmmm
Paul Calta…..You site the Yanks payroll as if any manager could or should duplicate Torre’s accomplishments….That being said, the Yankees of the 80′s had a team salary that far out lapped every team in MLB by a far wider margin than of today…Think Mattingly, Winfield, Henderson and so on……How far did it get them back then…..Don’t be foolish about this……
Paul9
I wouldn’t hold my breath if I were you. Great name, by the way!
VOIII, do you truly believe that they were sincere? And yet they would not negotiate? No wiggle room? Please. Let us not go down that road. The only thing they were sincere about was their desire to see him leave.
As for how he helped the infrastrucutre: again, look at the days when free agents did not want to join the Yankees. In seasons past the Yanks had little trouble at all attracting high-priced, highly skilled talent. Those players make it easier to win, winning equals money, money that helped at all levels of the organization.
And yes, I was in the room. I had a cherry danish and a Diet Coke.
They never had pitching in the 80′s, now they have young inexpensive good pitching. I still see this team as succesful…Petite, wang, Joba, Hughes, Kennedy, mussina too, horne waiting in the wings there is also humberto sanchez who is supposed to be healthy by Spring Training….Dellin Betances is gonna be sick very soon. The Yankee Pitching outlook is looking great
Paul 9:
The Pittsburgh Pirates have and opening for a manager. Check the Vegas odds of the Pirates going to the 2008 World Series.
Does anybody know how i can get a message to the Yankees ,,, Ived been a Yankee fan since 1949 (awesome season) and have to say something to these idiots.
Well, like Pete I think I have said all I can say. It was fun debating this and it will continue. How many days until Spring Training?
And I believe the chances next season are excellent to be playing in October, as do many of us. I just hope A-Rod stays.
Gayle
While not in the room in Tampa, I’ve been in many meetings where conversations like this take place. While everyone may have had some input into the contract draft, not everyone may be in full agreement on the final offer. Everyone picks the fights they feel they can win, defers on the fights they can’t and agrees to put a united face on the final product.
Levine may have taken a PR hit for the group but it may also be that Cash and some of the others weren’t willing to take a PR hit for something they didn’t believe. Better to say nothing and be thought a fool than open your mouth and confirm it.
Joe Torre will be missed but the Yankees will move on, if all those bashing George Steinbrenner think this current state of afairs is sad, wait until Geroge passes then they see what bad really is.
Thanks Chris-ESPN still should have done better though by at least attributing the statement to them, instead of just reporting it as gospel.
Don’t really care that much about losing Joe, maybe it’s just time, but the transprent way the Yankees bungled the handling of this I’m afraid is just a harbinger of what to expect from the new face of the Yankees ownership.
Joe didn’t lose in the playoffs, pitching did. As far as the players feelings about Joe, they could have performed better if they wanted to save his job.
Somewhat foolish to think ONLY a new manager will change things.
Whatever any of us think about Joe Torre as a manager it is about what the players think and the results he produced. As Yankee fans we all want to win every year but realistically that can only happen if we have the best team every year – and we did not have the best team this year. It feels like not only is the Torre era ending but that a more business than baseball approach has begun. Levine is a lawyer, Hal and Hank don’t sound like they understand baseball – and Cashman, well Cashman is in a bad spot. If they are truly looking to save money they may think the Yankee name is enough and it may be enough for a couple of years (to make them money) but then it all falls apart. I hope Tony Pena turns them down knowing he is the token minority being interviewed. I also have to wonder what type of a business decision it is to give Torre no respect and not have a backup plan (manager) in mind. It isn’t sounding like good business to me. When Cashman asked Joe if he was going to accept the deal do any of you really think he didn’t know how hurt and disrespected Joe would feel?
Dead wrong, Pete. Read Sherman the day BEFORE the offer/resignation. He advocated just the type of incentive based contract that was offered. Granted it was a suggestion of 2 years instead of one. But the “insult” was the performance based nature of the contract. And he was all for that. Francesa was the same the hour BEFORE the offer/resignation. Of course, the day AFTER, he went with the crowd. My guess is that Torre, as Sherman wrote, realizes he made a big mistake today.
The the life of a pro-sports manager…if you fail(In terms of the yankees no ring=a failure) then you are replaced…Its always the manager/coach’s fault
You know what’s amazing (not to get all John Sterling on you) but there is almost always a contrarian in the media crowd, somebody who goes against the grain. But I have yet to see anybody who thinks getting rid of Torre, especially the way they did, was a good idea.
——
Oh you’re talking about the same sportswriters that Torre spent his career sucking up to and being good friends with, because otherwise you might want to read a blog or two every now and then. I know bloggers aren’t “real” writers because Joe Torre doesn’t take us all to dinner, but still.
And what you see in this piling on is the relationships which sportswriters have built up with Torre over time. The reason they are piling on is the same reason none of them would ask a tough question about a bone-headed strategic move– including you, Pete– the relationship got in the way of objectivity. That said, I agree with Sherman. Torre should have been offered a 2 year, performance based contract. He probably would have turned that down too.
“pat
October 20th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
THIS ISN’T ABOUT MONEY!!!!!!!”
How do you know that?? Did Torre tell you that? I know what he said in the press conference, but ITS ALWAYS ABOUT THE MONEY!!!!!!
This Year 27 in ’07 ,
Torre did not make a mistake, you cant blame him for refusing a 1year deal. Why is that so hard to grasp?
Two great minds, Faded Glory.
At two years, he would most likely accepted…It was the second year that I think turned him off the most….
That’s actually not true, Pete. Plenty of folks felt that it was time for a fresh approach in the dugout. Steven Goldman comes to mind. But nobody appreciated the way the Yankees handled Joe’s exit.
There is, of course, a difference.
Jon Heyman is dancing around his basement over what’s gone on this week.
Brian in CT ,
Because he said it was about the term…I can understand why, i beleive joe on this…
Chris, he loved being the manager of the Yankees. He no longer is. And icons fade. He is smart enough to know that. What’s wrong at age 67 accepting a deal that guarantees you making 40% more than any other manager with the oportunity– a realistic one– of making more than he did this year? He could just have enjoyed the year and see what comes thereafter. I don’t get it. If that is an insult, I am ready, willing and able to be insulted. I bet he is having second thoughts. If he isn’t, he should be.
This Year 27 in ’07 ,
Enjoy the year and see what comes? Are you nuts man?? I posted this earlier, but I will say it again….If you give a coach, that all the players respect, a 1 year contract your making him a lame duck first of all….2nd Joe does not wanna go through this all again next year….3rd All the players will put added pressure on themselves because they will feel they r playing for Joe’s job. 4th, Joe does not wanan hear about some Ian O’Connor type guy getting hold of George after losing 3 games in the middle of the season and having George blast him and worry about his job security. Joe did the right thing for him, you have to respect that, he would have taken the same deal if it were 2 years. Joe did not wanna deal with this circus the same time next year.
On the flip side, if the Yankees wabnted to keep him they would have done whatever it took. You dont get that “We did whatever it took to keep him” type attitude coming from the Yankees.
PETE – serious question:
right before it was announced that Torre had turned down the Yankees, it was believed by EVERYONE in the media that he had flown down to Tampa to sign an extension. the terms of the offer were even public. this was on SI.com before Torre even got to Tampa (it has since been removed):
“The Yankees and Joe Torre appear to be closing in on a deal to bring Torre back as manager, SI.com has learned.
One source close to the situation believes the deal is for *one year guaranteed* and *could include an option year*. ”
how come before Torre turned it down, everyone assumed this offer was going to be accepted?? if it was SO INSULTING how come no one in the media called it insulting BEFORE Torre rejected it?????
why? b/c it didn’t fit the narrative.
if this deal was so OBVIOUSLY insulting, then why was it a HUGE surprise when he turned it down??
i gotta think a lot of people in the media are totally full of sh*t on this one. Mike and the Mad Dog were filled with glee that Torre was coming back on a one year deal with an option year. then all of a sudden they were totally caught off guard that he refused it.
why is that Pete?????
Because the media had it wrong, it was not a 1 year deal with an option. It was a 1 year incentive laden deal, take it or leave it.
Brian in CT
If you don’t believe Torre, take that out of the equation to simplify things.
Cashman said money is never an issue with the Yankees. They always write the biggest checks to keep who they want.
If YOU believe they wanted to keep Torre and money was the issue, why didn’t Cash write a bigger check?
“Because the media had it wrong, it was not a 1 year deal with an option. It was a 1 year incentive laden deal, take it or leave it.”
no, it was a one year deal with an option. the option vested if they won the pennant, but the yankees would still hold an option even if they didn’t win the pennant.
this has been reported endlessly.
I think Chris summizes the situation quite well from Torre’s point of view……No matter what, as I read columns nationwide, the reaction and opinions are all very consistant…..The Yanks FO come off like crap….Should have been handled so much better…..Even twits like Joe Buck and Tim McCarver in front of a National audience ripped the way it was handled……I forever remember the quote…..The Yankees are a ship without a rudder…When you think about it, it’s a rather great quote…..
Link to me where it was reported that there was a vesting option if they won the pennant.
hmmmm
I was listening to Mike and Dog when news of Torre flying to Tampa was reported. Both were happy to think he would be back but Dog said he didn’t think Torre would accept a one year deal and he would be crzy to do it. At that time there was also no news of whose option it was.
I can’t believe anyone disagrees with Peter and his reporting on this. The Yankees had the right to fire Torre, but why be so underhanded and offer him a take it or leave it deal which they knew he couldn’t take? They deserve all the backlash they get. And yes every fair minded person in the media has no choice but to acknowledge the Yankees are lying to the public and trying to spin. That is about the worst thing you can do in this day and age, expecially in NY. The naivete that the Yankees have shown is the most pathetic thing I have ever seen. To be honest, I am much less of a Yankee fan today then I was 3 days ago, it is quite sad to me.
Levine in the news conference said the option vested if they made it to the World Series.
to all the media…
enough already. you guys are making this torre thing out to be more than it is.
you guys are perpetuating it to sell papers.
this isnt as big a deal as reporters are making it out to be. let it rest, give everyone some peace and lets focus on a new start and 2008.
enough already.
I think Torre is the one who comes off looking disingenuous and unctuous.
For example, he said he was insulted by the incentives in the contract.
Fact: Most of his Yankee contracts had incentives.
The Yankees had no obligation to continue under the stupid terms that Swindal negotiated.
The performance of the team has declined. Does anyone seriously doubt that if the Yankees won a WS or two since the time Torre’s last contract was signed in April of 2004 that Torre wouldn’t have sought a raise?
Of course, he would. So why is it unfair for him to get a cut when the team underperformed?
Fact: It’s not.
The Torre crowd thinks that he should get credit for the wins but no blame for the losses. That is ridiculous.
So the Klapisches and the Vacarroes can spread their twisted memes all they want.
The facts are still the facts.
The Yankees handled this situation perfectly.
Kudos to the Steinbrenners, Levine, Troast, and Cashman.
They did the right thing.
“Link to me where it was reported that there was a vesting option if they won the pennant.”
huh? this is everywhere:
“The offer would have paid Torre a base salary of $5 million, with $1 million bonuses for each level of the postseason the Yankees reached next season, Levine said.
Those bonuses would have meant that Torre could have earned as much as $8 million in 2008. Levine said that if the Yankees made it to the World Series next season, his contract would have vested for 2009, with a base salary of $8 million. ”
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....8;c_id=nyy
That is still a terrible deal, its so hard to make it or win the world series he needed a Guaranteed 2nd year. I still dont blame him for not accepting that deal even if it had an option, albeit a diffuclt option to obtain. That puts even more pressure on the players minds in the playoffs. Their mindset would be “We got this far, we must win this for Joe, Win this for joe” Torre should have to deal with that, id refuse it too…
“The Yankees had the right to fire Torre, but why be so underhanded and offer him a take it or leave it deal which they knew he couldn’t take? ”
why couldn’t he take it?
whoa,
That is not fact, most yankee contracts DONT have incentives built into them. Arod’s does, but the yankees didn’t negotiate that deal. Why all of a sudden do the yankes feel they need to motivate joe? Hmm…cuz the yanks dint want him back, they did this on purpose they knew he would say no to that kind of deal.
Couldn’t they have offered Joe a 5mil contract minus the incentive package (maybe) plus some position within the organization after the two years and ensured we would sign posada, petite, mo, and alex?
Two guaranteed years to get matingly some experience and then an honorable position within the organization would have been the perfect way to handle both his departure and the guarantee of signing the big names.
yankee fans have just completely backpedaled and contradicted about 99% of the arguments they’ve been making for years about the postseason.
with A-Rod it was never “the postseason is a crapshoot”.
yankee fans CRUSHED the guy for years for his performance in TINY sample sizes, we’re talking 14 ABs in 2006.
but now that Torre was asked to show a little accountability for the postseason failures, it’s “the postseason is a crapshoot!! it’s so hard to make it to the World Series!!”
now, i am not saying Torre was to blame for 2006, outside of his handling of the bugs, which he even admitted yesterday. i don’t really blame him at all. but the fact of the matter is that the Yankees have had declining results FIVE STRAIGHT YEARS:
2003 – Pennant (lost in WS, Jeff Weaver says hi)
2004 – Lost in ALCS
2005 – Lost in 5 games in ALDS, probably even money to win
2006 – Lost in 4 games in ALDS, yankees were favored to win
2007 – Wildcard. Lost in 4 games in ALDS.
that’s five years of declining performance and you guys think think that contract offer was an insult???
could it have been handled better? yes. but i think the media has made Torre into a much bigger martyr than he is.
He couldnt take it cuz it was a bullsh*t deal. If you really wanted someone, why would you give them a “take it or leave it” deal. Didnt seem like they wanted him except for cashman, therefore he refused it. Would you wanna come to work knowing that nobody there wanted you?
“That is not fact, most yankee contracts DONT have incentives built into them.”
he said *Torre’s* last contract had incentives. which it did.
Chris,
The CBA prohibits certain types of performance based incentives for player contracts. That prohibition doesn’t apply to managerial contracts.
I don’t view it as motivation. I view it as a structure of rewards.
A $5 million salary is a very good one, certainly not an insult. If, under the contract, Torre’s team performed well in the playoffs, Torre would be rewarded. Why is that wrong?
If Torre had a problem with incentives, why did he sign prior contracts with incentives? After all, he signed them when he had the most leverage, i.e., after his team had won four rings.
Cashman was quoted in the NY Post as saying that he supported the terms of the contract offer. I have never known him to lie.
Jeff -
Some of us don’t take our cues from the media, but draw our own conclusions.
We live in the age of infantilism and phony manufactured outrage. Y’all go ahead and grab your pitchforks and torches if you want, but I’m not losing any sleep over a 68 year old rich man being offered a take or leave it deal and leaving it. Nor do I find it insulting or disrepectful in the least.
If Joe wants to stay away from the stadium and the fans for 15 years that’s on him.
What exactly does the CBA prohibit? Players have perf. based incentives all the time, look at A-ROd he got like a mil or sumtin for winning the MVP, he will get $$ if he wins a gold glove, etc…
Joe wasn’t insulted by the money, he was insulted by incentives and the absence of a guranteed 2nd year.
The yankees wanted Joe to say no to that contract…Thast why it was non-negotiable
Hmmm, Have you looked at the pitching staff recently ???? As I stated earlier, the Yanks spent a ton of money in the 80′s , far outspending any 2 teams combined payroll…What did it get them , nothing….They were peddling off young pitchers for old near washed up arms that led them no where…Does that ring a bell…Brown, Johnson, etc…..Granted they now hang on too young arms, in fact they prioritze it now…..Point is, no pitching , no Championships…..
Cashman is a GM, they lie all the time…esp in regards to negotiations. Remember when Cashman said Bubba Crosby was the yankees future CF. LOL
Chris, you must have imbibed a boatload of the JT Kool Aid to mix metaphors. Hmmm is absolutely right about Mike and the M Dog. Of course, they abandoned ship as soon as the piling on started. If it were me, I’d be confident enough to take the 5m and hope for 8. I’d say to the players on the first day of Spring Training, “If anyone thinks I am worried because I have a 1 year deal, fughedabout it. I am going to enjoy the ride for as long as it lasts, and lets’s have some fun and kick some ass this year”. He takes himself way too seriously IMO.
yanks will have something they never had in the 80′s or early 90′s. Young, Cheap arms.
This is a difference between puffery, which is what the Cosby comment may have been (of course, you don’t know that Cosby wouldn’t have been the CFer if no other option materialized), and outright lying. So that example is spurious.
“If you really wanted someone, why would you give them a “take it or leave itâ€? deal.”
the yankees determined how much Torre was worth and offered that to him. that amount was 43% higher than any other manager in baseball.
basically your argument is that the Yankees should have given Torre whatever he wanted.
and i don’t think they should have.
if he accepted the deal, i would have been fine with him coming back. but the notion that this offer was some huge slap in the face is just sensationalistic media-driven garbage.
Torre basically overplayed his hand. he assumed he could negotiate and the Yankees called his bluff. he should have just accepted the offer.
honestly, answer me this, had Torre accepted the offer would all of us be sitting around saying “wow, Torre really got bent over a barrel by the Yankees. i can’t believe he accepted that deal!!”
no, we wouldn’t. that would not have been the story at all.
the story would have been: “Yay, Torre is back!! He is still the highest paid manager in baseball but the yankees made more of his compensation results-driven. that was smart of the Yankees! Kudos to the Yankees for saving some money for a change!”
I don’t think the CBA permits incentives based on performance, e.g., stats, or more pertinently, incentives based on making the playoffs or making the WS.
There is no changing the mindset of the players, Its very simple in the players mind. If we dont win we will cost our beloved manager his job. Its not worth that kind of pressure especially in this sport.
We can go back and forth about the dumbest details…The fact is The yankees did not want him back (dont ask me why…) Joe sensed this by the way they wouldnt negotiate with him, and he truned down their offer. Joe only wanted to stay if he was wanted…and he certianly wasnt wanted. The contract is a smoke screen.
Whoa
Supporting and agreeing with something are 2 different things.
Have you never been supportive of decisions that people made without necessarily agreeing with them.
What manager or coach today, operates on a one year deal…..That, I see was the deciding matter for St.Joe….No second year…I do like the Spring Training speech though…..
I wish someone would show me that they didn’t want me by offering me $5 million, and so did Torre for most of his life.
Maybe the fact that the Yankees have made Torre a very rich man by giving him the opportunity to manage very, very talented teams has distorted his perceptions.
pat,
I think Cashman’s quote is pretty clear:
“It was a unanimous decision,” the GM said of the meeting that is an instant classic in Yankees lore since Torre walked out the door as the second-winningest manager in team history yet wanted to return. “I think you can be an ally and support the process at the same time. Everyone wanted Joe back, that was real. It wouldn’t have been a workable situation if Joe accepted something he wasn’t comfortable with or the Yankees presented something we weren’t comfortable with. At the end of the day it has to work for both sides.”
dude i want what ur smoking…The money is irrelevant, the lack of a guranteed 2nd year is what torre wanted to negotiate. They could have did a 12 mil 2 yr deal and im sure Joe would have accepted, and the yanks could have still saved money. The yanks were not trying to save money, when have they ever tried to save money when it came to something they really wanted??
Are you that gullible? Cashman said ‘everyone wanted him back’ hahahahah u must be joking me….Randy levine wanted him back? Hank & hal wanted him back?? no way in hell.
Chris,
So the Yankees had to give Torre two guaranteed years or they were insulting him?
They had every right to offer him a one year contract without it being considered insulting.
Chris,
Print the quotes with cites that prove that Cashman has a pattern of lying (as opposed to puffery).
If you can’t, then maybe it is you who is gullible for believing Torre.
Yes, he does take himself too seriously.
Being called an icon over and over will probably do that to people. He may well regret turning it the offer down.
I actually like the guy I a lot, just think he was overated and past his prime as a manager, and don’t buy into the Saint Joe vs the Evil Empire narrative. My prediction is that we’ll see him on TV where he’ll be terrific but not managing again.
Yogi was right to be pissed at George Steinbrenner. But if Torre pulls a Yogi and refuses to come to the old/new park it will come to be seen as embittered and uncalled for.
IF I beleive they all wanted him back, which I don’t, it wouldn’t have taken 2 days to negotiate that contract amongst themselves if they all agreed with the final outcome. It may have been something that they all agreed to not necessarily that they all agreed with.
And Joe had every right to turn it down..
not even talking, forget offering, not even willing to discuss a 2nd year is an insult to a guy who got u to the playoffs for 12 years in a row and half the time to a WS appearance.
I dont need to print any quotes….Randy levine DEF does not like Torre. There ya go right there. So if cashman said ‘everyone here wanted Torre back’, then he is lieing.
They had every right to offer him no contract. What was wrong was offering him a disingenuous contract and feigning shock when he said no.
Chris,
I believe in factual evidence. The facts support the Yankees not Torre.
As I pointed out, Torre has agreed to incentives in his contracts. For him now to be insulted about their inclusion in a contract speaks volumes about which side is telling the truth.
There is nothing about the contract that is disengenous.
Read Cashman’s quote above,compared to Torre’s presser and remind me again which side is acting “dignified” here.
i’m not really arguing if they wanted him back or not. i have no idea.
i’m really just pointing out the overwrought BS in the media these last few days has been nauseating.
Facts about what? The Yankees did not want to bring him back…If you are trying to argue that point with me, then ur just crazy and im done talking to you..
Michael Kay and Randy “Lievine” must go. Kay said yesterday that Torre wanted a 3 year deal, claiming that he did get a 2 year offer from the Yanks (yeah right, if they made the WS). Kay should give up already and move to Fox news – he’d fit right in. As for Lievine, he worked for the “9/11″ mayor, Goonliani – ’nuff said.
hmmm, as usual you make excellent points and ask interesting questions. And I agree that the media has overplayed this. But that is what they do. (Oooh, hang on a minute, there is a Britteny Spears update on TV that I don’t wanna miss…!)
From the Dept. of Redundancy Dept: my opinion is that they mishandled it. And lots of others think so too. If that many people come to this conclusion independently then there must be a grain of truth in there somewhere, no?
I don’t think Joe cared about the money. He wanted two years, maybe to get recognition of his accomplishments and also as a way to not look like he “failed” this season in losing in the first round?
The way this was non-negotiated, the front office wanted him gone. They got what they wanted. And I don’t think the mdeia was going to make Joe look bad in this, thus Dr. Evil has been created (notice how Randy Levine and Dr. Evil are almsot the same name?)
Levine is a real piece of sh!t
Joe (and Klapisch) think people would respond to him boycotting the Yankees like when Yogi did? Joe is hardly of Yogi’s stature.
I honestly think Cashman has to be pro Yankees and going along with a Corporate decision on Torre. As a Torre backer, he had his back against the wall with his superiors for the many mistakes he’s made as well. He does not appear to have the power over as many decisions as we are led to believe. He wasn’t let go because he make some quick maneuvers and got lucky bringing up the kids. What would have happened if the kids didn’t perform as well as they did ? Cashman would have been on the “big hook”, more so than Torre would have.
For anyone to fault Torre over pitching in which he did NOT go out and attain, is being near-sighted. He used what he was provided and had to make due with it, REGARDLESS of the payroll expended to get it.
Wang for a recent example, a 19 game winner for two consecutive years, was dismal when he was expected to be the ace. If he pitched like he is capable of pitching, this conversation or possibly Torre’s ouster doesn’t take place.
I feel as many do, that they could and should have released Torre by not renewing his contract if they felt they wanted to go in a different direction or with “Fresh Blood” so to speak. This was not a baseball oriented decision, it reeks of a corporate one. Cold and calculating, not deserving for anyone, let alone a man who has been a tried and true member of their “team” for 12 years. For this alone, Torre deserved more respect than he got. No respect at all as Rodney Dangerfield would say.
Luckily, most people will never have to feel this themselves. I have personally had this happen to me. I can say is certainly doesn’t feel good in many ways, and I was no where near Torre’s stature in the world.
The internet has made people very callous and unfeeling in many ways. The corporate world, as many will find out unfortunately, takes no prisoners and has no feelings. It’s where only stats and performance matters. That’s why most of the hard liners on here think this is the way to be and go. Personality bears no stance or substance. Welcome to the world of reality where a person is only a number and a statistic. No compassion, no heart, just business. Old school means little and the new way is the only way to go.
We may wake up one day and go back to some values that count and make us people again.
This organization will go on as it has in the past, fans will be fans, money will be spent and made, and Torre will go on, but to try to discredit the man by cheapening him in the way they did was wrong in many ways. The principle and his heart were the value’s Torre lived by. It was not just the money, he was made to be a commodity and not a person. That was the deciding factor he left over. He is not a figure on a ledger sheet. I would feel the same way he did and would have done exactly the same thing, I already have. It felt good to do too !
Just for the record Joey, the media does not form my opinion just because I agree with the rational media out there. I guess you are the only one not influenced by the media. To prove my point, I am a person who watches the Jon Stewart & Steven Colbert shows as well as Bill O’Reilly on Fox. I can cut through the BS and make my own opinion. Here are the facts:
1. The Yankees had the right to fire their manager if they feel he is not the right man for the job.
2. The Yankees made a good offer moneywise, even if it represents a pay cut.
3. Most managers, even mediocre ones get more then 1 year deals. Ozzie Guillen just got extended 3 years off his worst season. Torre just managed as a lame duck for a full year and never once complained or let it effect the team. He deserves a 2nd year guaranteed for that alone. If the Yankees were then to fire him mid year of after next year it would make a fair going away present.
4. If the Yankees really wanted him back they would have negotiated not tried to steam roll a deal.
5. Torre sat in the room and felt that the men in the room did not want him back. He and Cashman worked hard over the last few years to eliminate the Tampa vs. NY or other internal backstabbing, with George’s demise, that backfighting is clearly back.
6. The only people who think the Yankees negotiated fairly are the ones that wanted Torre fired in the first place.
Wrong, Petey. No one in the NEW YORK MEDIA thought the Yankees were right; OUTSIDE OF NEW YORK it’s a different story. OUTSIDE OF NEW YORK they aren’t in a swoon because he’s so damn charming. You guys aren’t objective about Torre at all. He’s your big uncle and you don’t want to see him kicked around; Torre has made major blunders and the NY press gives him a pass. It’s your right to treat him anyway you want, but don’t act like this pack of jackals treated Torre like anything but a saint.
Here is an interesting read that supports the idea that the front office is populated by Little Men:
http://theyankeesrepublic.blogspot.com/
Wasn’t this supposed to be Torre’s last contract, so that he could exit gracefully after its expiration? He even hinted to that in the press conference. Maybe when the Yankees structured the last extremely generous deal, that was the understanding and now they feel “Clemensed” that he wanted to keep it going when they were ready to move on. Maybe that’s why Cashman fought to protect him last year and but didn’t put up much of a fight this time around.
Seriously, what if they gave him another 2 year deal and at the spry age of 70 Joe wanted to stick around some more and keep managing? Would the Yankees be mangling the situation to let him go then? Hate to be ageist, but c’mon.
It’s a no win situation for the Yankees, but the lumps will heal. Levine is being put out there as the bad guy for a reason, and he’s perfect for the part.
Pete, not that I’m your editor, but it might be good journalism to do some analysis on the comments of your own blog and write an article saying “Contrary to popular belief and media blatherings, a huge percentage of Yankees fans are not crying in their soup and ready for this change.” Oh wait, that wouldn’t feed into the contrived story of the moment and sell papers. My bad.
At least one writer – Jack Curry of the NYT – admits:
“Our jobs just got tougher because Torre was probably the most talkative and eloquent manager in baseball…These days, many managers give pre-game interviews in a sterile location with a P.R. official waiting nearby, ready to end the session as soon as there is a five-second lull.”
I think this is the closest we’ll ever get to members of the media admitting their reason for casting this story as one of the Sainted Manager stricken down by the Wicked Fools in the FO.
Eric Y – Nailed it!
I agree with Eric Y. The media wanted Joe back a lot more than the fans. A manager’s job is to bring out the best in his players. How many Yankee acquisitions in the last 7 years performed better in pinstripes than they had previously? Perhaps Tanyon Sturtze, and he was ruined with overuse. Name some others. Time for a change. GO YANKEES!!!
Joe Torre went storming down to Tampa thinking he had an ace up his sleeve. They didn’t need to call his bluff to find out he’s a lousy poker player.
Thanks for the memories Joe ….
Vinny,
so when is it a good time to move on from Torre? is it possible to do it right? I’m not so sure….I guess the only thing the Yanks could have done differently is offer the one-yr managing contract and then a deal with YES and mentoring to keep him in the organization. But maybe that way would be hard to hire a manager to take over this team, with Torre looming over you. I think they are in a no-win situation honestly, for Pete’s sake (no pun intended!), the guy is 67, so is it ok to fire him when he is about to hit 70? Baseball, these days, unfortunately is a business, my god, look at the revenue! The Orioles owner, Angelos, only sellouts this season were when the Yankees and Red Sox came to town, however you think he didn’t make any money this past season? Of course he did, b/c of revenue sharing. It’s a business, like it or not, the league is stronger than ever and will continue to be, as it looks like we’re at the end of the steroids era (thank god!). It is what it is, as my pop used to say.
Pete…I think at a minimum these comments show that you do not have a pulse on the Yankees fan base right now. You are pretty clearly blinded by your love for a nice man who treated you well.
But I have yet to see anybody who thinks getting rid of Torre, especially the way they did, was a good idea.
What about Andrea Peyser?
What the Yankees represent, at this day in age, is a microcosm of what is wrong with the world today, namely that the bottom line is most important. People are always looking for more from whatever organization they invest themselves in, either emotionally or monetarily, but the problem is, no organization can grow unconditionally. Success is not always guaranteed, and every yin must have its yang. And most people, whether us Yankee fans or Microsoft shareholders, aren’t willing to allow that organization to have that yang.
The Yankees have been amazingly consistent for twelve years, with their “yangs” culminating in a World Series title in 2000, a near title in 2001, and a trip to the playoffs in 2005-07 when the Yankees were rebuilding. Yet the man who helps engineer the on-field results, Joe Torre, is shown zero respect and the shallowest of thank yous from some rather ungrateful egoists, and many of us can’t understand why some of us are upset.
You may hate me if you want, but understand that our lows, for the past twelve years, have resulted in a lot of “almosts”, which is twice as much as pretty much any team. I write this because, in a nutshell, I am embarrassed by those of us who fail to see that simple human dignity is as important in life as the bottom line.
I have been a Yankee fan my entire life, and will always be. But I will never forgive the Steinbrenner family, nor Randy Levine or any other Tampa employee, for not learning from their previous mistakes and allowing a huge part of the Yankee family split because we aren’t number one every year.
And don’t mistake winning titles with having the opportunity to win titles. Again, no organization, no business, is perfect. Business models run in cycles, and to have the opportunity to come out on top year after year, especially in such a competitive marketplace, is nothing short of remarkable. I am fine with a change in leadership, but not this way.
Thank you, Joe, for everything you’ve done for us for the last twelve years. Please know that my grandfather, my father, and I all hold you in the highest esteem and wish you the best of luck and hope to see you be part of our family someday again.
Posters here are for the most part anonymous–anyone can make any claim. I’ve listened to Michael Kay for many years, I’m well aware of his obligations and biases. I do not need to be told that Michael Kay “understands.” Murray Chass “understands?” Sure, when he’s not crying about the Red Sox, Mike Piazza, or his beloved “Commissioner.” Powerful people are used to getting their way, controlling what you think.They’ve heard of the internet, blogs, etc. I mention again the item that was planted in the newspaper about Andy Pettitte after they kicked him out in 2003. “The Yankees” found themselves in an unexpectedly bad PR spot at that time (no doubt once again “stunned”). And, voila, a hateful item that would hurt his family appeared in the paper. You can figure out yourself how it got there. Michael Kay said on television while Joe Torre was manager that time would prove that Buck Showalter was a better manager than Joe Torre. I heard him myself. I’ve heard Kay’s recent discussions (in between interviewing his pal Showalter)–it was not merely an understanding or opinion–it was the lowest form of sensationalist, hypothetical ravings I’ve heard from a sports talk station. Jon Heyman is your big guy? Please, where were these great reporters/journalists for the past 3 years? The big story, that Levine was becoming Steinbrenner, was growing every day, many if not all of them knew it (as has come out in recent days)yet they all avoided it. These great minds preferred to hang out for hours in players’ dressing rooms waiting for a meaningless quote rather than take on a real story. P.S. Look for “the Yankees” (whatever that is) to go back to their old ways, reverse the work that Cashman started, again trading young inexpensive jewels for probably past their prime big names who’ll be filing for free agency a year later anyway.
Nicely put, Murph. I whole-heartedly agree. Joe brought class to an organization that deserved it. What will happen now?
Yankee fans became spoiled particularly after the three-peat of 2000.
George Steinbrenner himself said at the presentation of the championship trophy that it had become increasingly difficult to get to the World Series with the advent of the Wild Card in 1995 leading to two tiers of playoffs before the World Series itself. Many thought his patience would wear thin after the 2002 or 2003 championship losses but he backed off with age and his health playing parts. It was only a matter of time before he’d throw his hands in the air whether it was Torre or any other name.
Hopefully a younger manager, like Girardi, will give younger players a better chance and not favor veterans all the time. Duncan should have seen more playing time down the stretch. Last year he ruined the playoffs by playing Sheffield and Matsui. GO YANKEES!!!
“But I have yet to see anybody who thinks getting rid of Torre, especially the way they did, was a good idea.”
I think it was the best thing they could have done. They were in a no win situation because Joe knew he had the media in his hip pocket. How many favors had he done for you, Pete?
Torre mistakes:
1. Burning out Scott Proctor et al
2. Not doing anything during the midge attack
3. Batting Matsui instead of Duncan.
4. Pitching Wang twice
That’s this year’s highlights.
How about screwing with the lineup and putting Sheffield at first during the 06 playoffs? BRILLIANT. Bat Arod 8th to “take the pressure off him”. BRILLIANT
What happened in 05? GOD I DON’T EVEN REMEMBER.
04…the great collapse against our arch enemies.
I think the great BOO HOOING over Torre’s departure is a lot of BUNK. A lot of us thought his bullpen management was close to sinful and he was half asleep in the dugout half the time.
The players gave him ALL the credit for coming back from a 14 game deficit and none of the blame for the playoff debacle. Well if they cared, REALLY CARED, they should have done something…like played well.
Steinbrenner was LIVID about the lack of support during the midge problem. He threatened Torre and I think he should have just fired him. Steinbrenner was RIGHT…Torre should have been on the mound.
Joe was phoning it in at the end .. maybe the last few years…
I support the decision to give him a one year contact. He’s a big whiner.
Jeter’s Future Wife,
I never said Torre should be brought back. I said the way he was released was wrong IMO.
Here is my earlier quote:
“I feel as many do, that they could and should have released Torre by not renewing his contract if they felt they wanted to go in a different direction or with “Fresh Bloodâ€? so to speak. This was not a baseball oriented decision, it reeks of a corporate one. Cold and calculating, not deserving for anyone, let alone a man who has been a tried and true member of their “teamâ€? for 12 years. For this alone, Torre deserved more respect than he got. No respect at all as Rodney Dangerfield would say.”
In this vein JWF, I will say I still feel Torre was very capable of doing the job at hand. He certainly has the qualifications and to be honest with you, I think the means at his disposal were more lacking than Torre was himself.
Many question his pitching moves but where was Torre actually to turn when no one in the bullpen could get people out, other than Mo and Joba and Joba was very late in the season ? He had few options and more of the time those options turned out to be a bust. He had to go to the hot hand, the guy who was getting the job done. Very few others in the pen helped so he went with who was “ON” that day to win some games. Relief pitching is a disposable commodity to a team. They can always get or trade for mediocre pitchers.
Putting value on Proctor or second rate pitchers, who did just OK for a month here or there, is a mistake because we all saw what the team actually thought of him. He was gone when his usefulness wasn’t as consistant as it should be. People talk about Sturtze. He was good for about a month and then was an albatross. It was not overuse either, the guy had little to offer. These are, “Burn them out and throw them away type guys.” They are a dime a dozen. Hot for a little while and then then they are useless or even detrimental to the team.
Did Torre make mistakes ? Yes. Were there things he could have done better ? Yes. But to think any other manager doesn’t make mistakes or have their own mis-judgements is short-sighted.
People say Torre had the best players to work with but in reality, did he really ? Igawa, Clippard, Rasner, Henn, etc., no real pitching until May or June. Were it not for Pettitte in April and May, they had little pitching at all.
The team couldn’t hit until then either. Were it not for Arod and Posada early on, they wouldn’t have sniffed a playoff berth let alone make it past the first round.
To place blame for these issues solely on Torre when his best players didn’t match up to the task is what troubles me. Blaming Torre for their ineptitude is a corporate way to look at the true problems, by blaming the person in charge. He takes the fall, not who is actually responsible.
In that respect, Cashman holds more blame then Torre does but because Torre was the manager and also because his contract was up, so he took the corporate hit. He was the likely candidate to take the hit for the mis-adventures of the players, whom Torre did not hire, saw through their weaknesses, probably complained about it to Cashman, an STILL made it to the playoffs in spite of the teams/players poor performance.
The Torre era is gone now but for anyone to place the blame for it all on him is wrong, just as wrong as the way he was released. Just say “No thanks”, and move on would have been better than to string out the procedure. IMHO. Vinny
TORRE, TORRE, TORRE… Tora, Tora, Tora…
The Yankees executives have used the low road and a veiled paycut to let go the best available living baseball manager for the 2008 Yankees! Perspective: Torre is ranked 13th all time in totals wins in the history of baseball and of the 12 managers in baseball history with more wins only 5 have a higher win percentage, so Levine and Steinbrenner just canned the #6 all time win/win percentage manager in baseball history.
Any Yankee fan that doesn’t grasp that losing Torre was a bad thing, does not understand baseball or Torre’s success. What just happened had more to do with Steinbrenner’s ego and Levine’s inability to temper George’s reaction. If Steinbrenner wanted to do something productive, he’d get a better closer(s), not fire the 6th best baseball manager in history! Levine and Stinbrenner deserve all of the criticism they’re getting! Every last bit of it! They made a huge miscalculation and mistake and if history is any indication, their egos are far too big to fix it!
It’s not the end of the world or the end of the Yankees, but it will hurt the Yankees and their chances in 2008. Joe Torre is both a gentleman and a proven winner with a record of success that has been equaled by only 5 other baseball managers in history! Levine and Steinbrenner just canned one of the 6 best baseball managers in history. Unless Levine and Steinbrenner can resurrect John McGraw or Connie Mack, they have both a PR and managerial disaster. Any Yankee fan that doesn’t understand that when your owner acts like a two-year old and says, “win this game or you’re gone,” doesn’t deserve Torre of any quality manager.
Bobby Cox said today, “I thought [Torre] was the Manager of the Year in the American League this year. I’m not running their organization. But I would have taken him back in a heartbeat….I hate to see it. Joe is a top-notch quality person and top-notch quality manager.”
Good job Joe! Great Run! You deserve better! You will be in the hall of fame for being a winner and a champion. Steinbrenner’s history has been consistent and is based on being emotional and unappreciative of every single manager that he has ever had. This is why he now hides behind Levine. Good luck replacing Torre!!
The guy that said the Yankees just used veiled tactics to can the 6th best manager in baseball history is absolutely correct. Total wins and win percentage have Torre ranked 6th all time best manager in history. and we just let him go because he only won 94 games and took us post season…
and we’re going to replace him with who…
Like the guy said Connie Mack and John McGraw are dead!
La Russa, Cox and Pinella would never come here, so the Yankees will have a lesser manager next year… plain and simple. Shame on you George! You’ve let down Yankee fans, Yankee players and management and most of all, you’ve let yourself down by being emotional and not logical. Good luck replacing Joe, you’ll need a lot of luck, because you’ve eliminated any possibility of getting any baseball manager equal to Joe Torre. You just canned the #6 all time best total win/winning percentage manager in history for not doing well enough!! Grow up George!!! The other blogger was correct, you’re acting like a two year old!
Jamie: You are clueless and I’d love to see you manage a major league team. Your justification for dismissing the #6 all time best manager was who he batted once! Gie me a break? Can you even name the 5 managers in all of baseball history and the teams they managed? Nope.. and those are the only men in all of history equal to Torre. You’re comments bear testament to your meqager understanding of what it takes to win on this level for as long as Torre has. No matter what you say, canning someone for having a 94 win playoff year is wrong, especially with Torre’s previous 12 year run! Exactly who do you think will be better!!! There isn’t anyone!!!