Ten random thoughts on a Monday
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Oct 22, 2007 
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In tribute to Peter King, here are 10 things I think today:
1. Cleveland 3B coach Joel Skinner might have cost his team the World Series. Kenny Lofton could have walked home on that play. The complexion of that game changes a lot at 3-3. The Indians should be ashamed of themselves.
2. It’s not impossible for Joe Girardi to get the job. But Don Mattingly has to be considered an overwhelming favorite to be the next manager. He’s been holding an ace for four years and now he puts in on the table.
3. Think about how much money it could cost the Yankees to retain Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera and Alex Rodriguez. Over the lifetime of their contracts, you could be talking an investment of at least $250 million. That’s a lot for a 36-year-old catcher, a 38-year-old pitcher and a guy who never played in the World Series.
4. How many games into next season will it take before somebody writes that Joe Torre should replace Willie Randolph? Over/under is 20.
5. Boston getting to the World Series helps the Yankees in that it increases the odds of Mike Lowell staying put. It also lessens the need for Boston to make a big splash and sign A-Rod. If he goes free agent and the Yankees, Sox and Mets aren’t interested, Scott Boras loses a ton of leverage.
6. In case you missed it, Murray Chass of the Times wrote kindly about those Dane Cook MLB commericials. I had no idea they were related.
7. If kindly, religious soft-tosser Paul Byrd on HGH, then who isn’t? I love that how all these guys claim it’s a perscription from a doctor and has nothing to do with wanting to play better.
8. They may be Red Sox, but only a stubborn Yankees fan would not want Kevin Youkilis or Dustin Pedroia in pinstripes. Those guys are gamers.
9. My friend Paul and the lovely Suzanne saw Bruce Springsteen at the United Center in Chicago last night and were close enough to stage to slap hands with the man himself. Yeah, I was very jealous. But I’m going three times next month.
10. NBC’s Cris Collingsworth said last night the Patriots are the best team in NFL history. That is just stupid. They’re 7-0. The best team ever has to at least win the Super Bowl. Talk to me then.
Amazing how the tide turned, actually completely washed over the Indians, after Chris Myers mentioned how relaxed they were.
The Torre for Willie talk will really heat up during spring training. I feel bad for Willie..a .500 start could unfairly mean the axe.
Isn’t Murray Chass’s real name Murray Cook?
Chris Collinsworth has always been a dope.
Pete what does not having made it to the world series have anything to do with A-Rod’s value? You do understand no A-Rod this year means no post season this year right?
TOTALLY different game if Lofton scores! Amazing how the entire season wound up in the hands of a 3rd base coach….funny how baseball works sometime.
If the Yanks had any guts, they would not resign them, and keep rebuilding. Yes I know they are the heart and soul of the Yankees, but sometimes you just have to move on.
i guess im a totally stubborn yankees fan…
Joel Skinner was a hot managerial candidate. He might have cost himself a chance to ever manage. Does Mattingly want Bowa cuz maybe they should stop him from going to Seattle.
A couple of comments:
Skinner made a bad decision. But even with that, they had first and third, with one out, down 3-2. They needed to at least tie that game there.
I guess I’m a stubborn NYY fan but I wouldn’t be too eager for Youk or Pedroia. They’re good players, don’t get me wrong, but I don’t watch them and wish they were in pinstripes.
Seen Bruce twice on this tour, and I’m jealous of your friends too.
And Chris Collingsworth said something stupid? And in related news, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.
Yep. The Lofton play was key. Actually both plays that Lofton was involved in were key. On the last one, not only does Kenny score, but probably the runner advances to 2nd on the throw, so no double play on the next batter. and then who knows after that.
I also thought was safe at 2nd after the throw from Manny earlier in the game, but it was a fairly close play. Next guy up got a single, I believe, so all things being equal, that’s another run for the Indians.
I think the Red Sox actually enjoy being in a hole. They do seem to ramp it up a notch when people start to think they’re out of it. And now that Colorada has had a week to cool off, I’d be real surprised if Boston doesn’t take the WS. However, Colorado has had a magical season, so I guess all we can do is hope for the latest Cinderella ending.
You do understand no A-Rod this year means no post season this year right?
That’s right, because the Yankees have never been able to get therem or win the World Series, without him.
Call me stubborn, but there’s no way in hell I would want Pukelis or Pedroia on my team.
How funny would it be if he turned down the Yankees offer, than went on the free agent market and saw that there was no market for the $$ he wanted. Than he had to come crawling back to the Yankees. If there was no market i’d bet he would still be available till Feb.
8. I guess I am a stubborn Yankee fan. I don’t like either one of them, they disgust me.
“If the Yanks had any guts, they would not resign them, and keep rebuilding. Yes I know they are the heart and soul of the Yankees, but sometimes you just have to move on”
Why would you move on from players who are still performing at a plus level? They don’t have any young catchers who are ready.
I hate statements like this.
The ARod never been to a WS line makes little sense.
I would never want Pedroia on the Yankees over Cano. Never.
A wild and mostly facetious idea: work out a complex deal that lets Torre go to the Mets and brings Willie to the Yanks. The media would have a field day.
If you think I’d rather have Pedroia than Cano on the squad…
Let’s not get carried away.
Go Rockies.
Enoch, just the whole “I will leave if Joe leaves” really bothers me. Complete disregard for the fans with their statements. I understand there are no catchers out there, but Posada and Rivera are going to want at least 3 or 4 year deals. At what point do the Yanks say no more of this?
Now would be a great time to start.
Youkalis and Pedroia can stay in Boston. I can live without seeing Pedroia dive for ground balls hit directly to him every night and Youkalis whine to the umpire after ever strike call against him.
When Lofton was held up at third I texted my friend and said that ahole should be fired!! He just cost his team! Is he packing up his locker yet??
Pete I think you need to put a poll up. Would you take Pukealous or Pedoria on your team. I’d bet most would say NO!!!!
I think that Casey Blake also deserves some blame. He had a chance to take some of the heat off of Skinner and knock in Lofton with a fly ball and he couldn’t do it. Then he makes the error in the bottom half of the inning that leads to the two run homer by Pedroia. By the way, I can also be called a stubborn Yankee fan.
The Patriots continue to amaze me. Boomer Esiason was really gushing over Brady yesterday after the game, saying that his play was perfect. New England’s just lucky that the my Titans are not on their schedule. Maybe my Titans will see the Patriots in the playoffs!!
The Lofton play was huge. But the wrong call at second on him was even bigger.
And Blake was the real culprit.
I can’t believe you fell for the McCarver/Buck hypnosis that told you there would have been no play on Lofton. That ball kicked directly to Ramirez off the wall and he picked it up cleanly with a bear-hand about 20 feet from the infield. I was incensed that they stated categorically that there would have been no play. It’s just not true. You fell for it. I didn’t.
I hate Pedroia and Youkilis. You can root for the Patriots and pick out your favorite Red Sox. I hate them all. They’re from Boston. You’re not supposed to like them. Work on it.
So yeah I guess I’m stubborn, too.
If we had to lose 1 of the 3 free agents(arod,posada,rivera). Who’s loss would we be able to recover from most. I for one would choose to lose Rivera. Just because he seemed to struggle more this year than his most. Secondly, we could just keep Joba in the pen and bring Kennedy in to start next year.
Pete — I actually think that Torre might get the Mets job before Spring Training. I bet the Wilpons are sitting there going back and forth on how they can pull this off w/o looking like jerks.
I don’t think Torre would take the job mid-season so they know they have a window now to get him or they have to wait a year.
The only thing I could see is the Mets offer him a front office position (as a former Met and NY baseball legend) and he takes it and then comes down and manages when they dump Willie (and they will dump Willie).
As for Skinner, he did cost them a chance at the Series and I think he just submarined his manager chances since he’s now the village idiot. Could you imagine what NY would do to Bowa if he did that?
As for the Sox getting to series, they earned it. We didn’t. I’m still trying to figure out if the Cleveland pitchers beat us or did our hitters just suck, since the Red Sox had no problems with any of the pitchers who shut our guys down.
This pretty much solidifies it for me, Abe. You’re ridiculous.
What is wrong with you? I’m sure A-Rod never making the World Series has everything to do with him being a purple lipped slappy McChoker and not that the Mariners were beat by better Yankees teams or that these Yankee teams have no starting pitching in October and a lack of offense.
And no, I don’t want scumbags like Youkilis and Pedroia on my team. How is Pedroia a gamer? He’s been terrible all postseason until last night.
Jorge would be the one i’d least like to lose. There are no free agent catchers. Could you imagine having to root for Paul Laduca. UGH. We cannot let Jorge leave under any circumstances. Sign him to a 3 year deal, knowing that he’d probably end up being your dh the last year of the deal.
“Enoch, just the whole “I will leave if Joe leavesâ€? really bothers me. Complete disregard for the fans with their statements. I understand there are no catchers out there, but Posada and Rivera are going to want at least 3 or 4 year deals. At what point do the Yanks say no more of this?
Now would be a great time to start”
Neither have said they would leave if Joe left, and neither have send they want 3-4 yr deal, although three years is fine for either, because neither projects to drop of the cliff in the next 1-2 years. Since we have no suitable replacements, now would be a TERRIBLE time to start.
Am I crazy to think that even if the Yankees lost ARod/MO/Posado next year they could still compete simply because their pitching staff would be much better next year?
And there’s no way in hell I want Pedroia over Cano and Youkilis over SD/Minky no way in hell.
What does Lowell have to do with the Red Sox wanting Arod? Did you forget that Arod is a SS? Surely you didn’t forget that Lugo sucks.
There would have been a play at the plate with Lofton but he’s quite speedy. I think he would have made it, or at least would have been close. He should have tried at least. He was halfway home by the time he was held up.
youkilis? yeah… but Pedroia? I’d rather have Cano
I wonder what the odds are Alex Rodriguez will be playing in Japan in 2008….
Seeing Bruce Springsteen three times next month? Isn’t that as bad as watching every Knicks game this year?
Youklis is Giambi without the power or the shift. At least he was after the all-star break.
Perdoia is a Melky Cabrera that works for the Boston demographic.
I’d never be confident in Matsuzaka. Cleveland lost that game, Boston didn’t win it.
I’m not saying Pedroia is better than Cano. He’s not. But Pedroia is somebody I would want on my team. He’s a gamer.
I love the guy who said he would want Shelley and Mientkiewicz instead of Youkilis. Good thing you’re not a GM. The Yankees would make that trade in 0.5 seconds.
Youkilis is the classic guy you hate until he is on your team.
All I mentioned was the fact that A-Rod has never led a team into the WS. We’re talking a lotta years now. Just a simple fact. Tough to spend that much money on a guy who for whatever reason has never got there.
Now you have to spend the money, no question. But he has in fact never played in the Series.
Just because they have Lowell at third doesn’t mean the Sox won’t try for A Rod. Unless you think Lugo is there to stay…
To echo others, why exactly would a Yankee fan want Dustin Pedroia when we already have a 2B?
Cano is better offensively and defensively right now, while having more natural talent to possibly project from.
Joe:
I like the Patriots. My dad had season tickets. Deal with it.
As for that play, Manny was WALKING after the ball.
I think Peter is saying hypothetically, if we could pretend that we didn’t have to get rid of Cano, would we want Pedroia.
Yankee Fan In Boston-
They did score quite a few runs so I am not sure that they didn’t actually win the game. But I agree that you are really rolling the Dice-K whenever that guy pitches.
“He’s not. But Pedroia is somebody I would want on my team. He’s a gamer.”
And Cano isn’t?
It’s an ‘or,’ not an ‘and.’ Yankee fans can only have one and they have the better one. Only a Red Sox fan or slave to the idiocy of Grit! Clutch! Intangibles! would think otherwise.
Well, Lugo does have a contract until 2010 at $9 million a year, so I think Boston has a SS. Plus Alex doesn’t have the range to play SS any more. He’s gotten much bigger than he used to be. Even Boras hasn’t trotted that out.
I would just like to say that if Jorge and Mo decide they don’t want to play in NY because Torre is no longer there, then good riddance. This is BS. I care far more about the Yankees than I do about one manager and the Yankees go FAR BEYOND one man.
At 36 and 38, both players have seen their better days. I love them both dearly, but if they potentially make decisions like these, then they are no longer dedicated to being true Yankees.
I am over Torre, bring in the next guy.
“Think about how much money it could cost the Yankees to retain Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera and Alex Rodriguez. Over the lifetime of their contracts, you could be talking an investment of at least $250 million. That’s a lot for a 36-year-old catcher, a 38-year-old pitcher and a guy who never played in the World Series.”
Is that a typo, because if the Yankees can sign all 3 for 250 over the life of all 3 contracts that would be a deal… Isn;t Boras looking for 300 just for A-Rod? LOL
Youkilis is clearly better than anyone the Yankees have at first base right now. And Pedroia is a solid offensive player who is MUCH better defensively than Cano. Pedroia committed only six errors last year, and Youkilis had NONE.
Moreover, they were both key contributors in the Sox winning TWO post-season series, including three elimination games. I’m glad the Yankee fans are too myopic to recognize WINNING ballplayers when they see them …. players who can perform under pressure. May the same malady infect the new Yankee brain trust.
How great would it be if Mattingly brought back scrubs that he played with to coach? Haha imagine Sax coaching 1st, Henderson coaching 3rd, and… honestly I can’t think of a Mattingly Era player that would be a funny bench coach? I mean Winfield would be hilarious but would never happen… Maybe Pags?!?
Anyone have any suggestions?
“Seeing Bruce Springsteen three times next month? Isn’t that as bad as watching every Knicks game this year?”
It’s not even 2:00, and Jim Clark already won the Craziest Post of the Day award!
How was the Lofton play key? They didn’t lose by 1 run.
If trotting out “Alex for SS” will drive up the price for his client, then don’t fool yourself into thinking SB will not use it to his leverage to squeeze out a few extra $$.
“How was the Lofton play key? They didn’t lose by 1 run.”
But a tie game changes the way the rest of the game is played. Sure, they could have lost still, and maybe they would have. Never know.
If Red Sox get A-Rod than we’re going to have a long year as yankee fans. That would let them get rid of Lugo or use him as back -up and it seems Coco is already gone with Ellsbury. That would be a scary line-up to face. With that said I think Yanks need to sign A-Rod and not take the chance of Boston passing on him. In the end it will be up to A-Rod which pretty much stinks. Down with the opt-out clause.
“And Pedroia is a solid offensive player who is MUCH better defensively than Cano.”
That’s not true. Cano was the 9th best 2B defensively in 2007. Pedroia was 18th. He doesn’t have half as much range as Robbie.
http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.....;p=1142869
> 2. It’s not impossible for Joe Girardi to get the job.
> But Don Mattingly has to be considered an overwhelming
> favorite to be the next manager. He’s been holding an
> ace for four years and now he puts in on the table.
I doubt it. Hank Steinbrenner at least appear to have a
head on his shoulder given his recent tongue-lashing of
Torre — which was much deserved and lont past due.
So I’m sure Hank also saw the following:
http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_6191269
Mattingly’s own name has been mentioned in discussions of a
successor to Torre. It was even mentioned earlier this year
when the once-mighty Yankees mightily struggled. He hasn’t
been considered seriously by other clubs and isn’t on a short
or long list for the vacant Baltimore job.
“I’m not ready to be a manager. I don’t deserve to have that
position yet,” Mattingly said without hesitation. “When I was
the hitting coach I was locked in a tunnel, concentrating on
just one aspect of the game. This is my first year of looking
at the entire game, and I’m learning about managing the game
and the lengthy season from one of the best managers in
baseball history.
“I have no timeline. The way I look at it is I’m too old to
be a player, and I’m too young to be a manager, and I’m some-
where in between. I’m happy as a coach. If and when my oppor-
tunity comes up, I want to be totally prepared for it.”
Re Youklis:
He is a patient hitter for sure. Stephen King in his book on the 2004 season called him “The Greek God of Walks”.
He does whine and snivel quite a bit which is really annoying to watch. I do think he would be an upgrade over Minky and Duncan however.
As for Pedroia, let’s wait and see how he does his second year before we start forging his Cooperstown plaque. I’m not convinced on him long-term.
Pete,
I’m the crazy guy who wanted SD/Minky over Youkilis and I still believe that if Shelly is given a full year he can post up very similar if not better numbers than Youkilis.
I believe Shelly’s OPS would be greater than Youkilis’. I mean a .453 slugging pct. and you’re a right handed hitter playing half your games in Fenway isn’t saying much. But hey, what do I know, I’m not a GM.
Peter-
Manny only pulled up after he saw Lofton hold up. Why else would he have bare-handed it? He had a play. You’re wrong.
“Stephen King in his book on the 2004 season called him “The Greek God of Walksâ€?. ”
Billy Beane called him that in Moneyball. Regardless, he’s better than anyone we have at 1B.
Good to know that world series appearances are the gauge for the value of a player. Guess Ernie Banks and Don Mattingly are worthless, while Clay Bellinger and Luis Sojo are worth their weight in gold.
Is there some place taking bets on who will be the next manager? I’d go for dark horse Tony Pena. Safe, well-liked, easy to fire if things go wrong.
It may be too early to anoint the Pats “the best team ever,” but they are awesome to behold.
Let’s not mince words, Pete. The only reason anyone calls Pedroia a “gamer” or “scrappy” is because he’s short. For whatever reason people are drawn to short people that are good, but not great, players and assign various labels to them.
And besides, I’m sure if Cano dove for every groundball that he simply had to reach down for, people would be calling him a “gamer” too.
“Cano was the 9th best 2B defensively in 2007. Pedroia was 18th. He doesn’t have half as much range as Robbie.”
Again, simply because he dives for routine grounders, people want to give him a gold glove.
But he’s still a “gamer”.
Whatever that means.
“They may be Red Sox, but only a stubborn Yankees fan would not want Kevin Youkilis or Dustin Pedroia in pinstripes. Those guys are gamers.”
Pete, I watched those vermin every day up here in Boston. They’re helmet throwing, umpire baiting, F-bombing, whining/sulking punks. And Yukolis can’t take a shot. 3 weeks on the bench after the HBP, when Jeter would have missed a few games. The only guys on that team you want are Ortiz, Timlin and Lowell.
10. Did Collinsworth even look at the standings before saying such a idiotic statement. As far as I am concerned the defending Super Bowl Champs are still undefeated (5-0) and the best team in the NFL until beaten.
I agree that Youkalis, who I have no love for, would definitely be an upgrade at 1B.
As I said earlier, comparing Pedroia to Cano is like comparing Eckstine to ARod in their heydays at shortstop.
Both at 24 years old, let’s see how little Dustin hits after pitchers have gotten to know him for a few years. Cano has more range, more power, a classic swing…and is a much better hitter who’ll get even better as he learns plate discipline. No comparison!
As far as Skinner’s call on Lofton – it would not have changed to outcome at all. I agree, that Lofton would have likely scored without a throw – he was rounding third andf Manny had not even picked up the ball. Manny likely had conceded the score and was holding the runner on first. The next pitch was a double play ball by Blake. Even with the score tied, it would have been unlkely for Blake to bunt – thus maybe 3-3..
So next inning, Blake makes an error, Betancourt -arguably their best reliever – gets tagged for two runs. 5-3.
How was that a game changing play?
for for those quotingg Arod, Jorge, and Mo about “I will leave if Torre leaves”. When did they ever say something like that????? Find a quote for us, please.
Larry- “At 36 and 38, [Posada and Mo] have seen their better days.” Really?
You did watch Posada this year, right?
Pete- Watching New England is getting to be like watching the ’98 Yankees. They’re just on a whole other level from everyone else on the field. There’s always room for injury, and the possibility that the Pats will just start choking, but they are certainly on pace to be “The Best Team Ever.” And boy is it fun to watch.
scott boras will say anything to help get more$ for arod.. I do believe the Yanks mean what they say about the opt out……
overall the red sux mentaly and on the field are tough guys like o’neill and ven guys like chad curtis…
dice K is a good pitcher but not worth the $ by any stretch…
the sux complain on everycall in my opinion..
Pete,
I’ll take the over on Willie Randolph… 41 games – Mets will be 17-24, Willie out/Joe in.
On Pedroia, followed him from his days as Arizona State – which by the way, while not winning any College WS recently has many gritty gamers. They all come from the local JC’s where there are no scholarships. – he plays now just like he did in college. Yankees need 3 Youklises and 2 Pedroia’s to round out a fine ball club. Incidentally, they had that during their WS run but that bleeder by Gonzales in 2001 changed the face of the Yankees for a long time.
Decisions were made based on losing that WS – wasted spending on FA’s like Giambi, bad trades to get back what was missed, etc – instead of just calling it what it was, a lucky hit with poor positioning by Jeter.
Rich – Timlin is shot.
Pepper Brooks – while you have a point about the post-2001 spending, I disagree about making the lineup a mirror image of the dynasty years. Inconsistent starting pitching has been the real weakness. Clemens-Cone-Wells-Pettitte-El Duque is not exactly easy to repeat. Hopefully 2008 will prove otherwise with the rookies stepping it up.
Youkilis? A gamer? Really? I’d be able to hear the whining all the way across the river without subscribing to YES. No thanks.
“They may be Red Sox, but only a stubborn Yankees fan would not want Kevin Youkilis or Dustin Pedroia in pinstripes. Those guys are gamers.”
Yeah Pedroia and Youkilis are good players. But I don’t want Pedroia in pinstripes right now because Cano is better. And we could definitely use Youkilis at first base. But not because he is a “gamer”, which is one of those meaningless baseball cliches that is overused. It’s because the Yankees have a big hole at first base, and Youkilis would be a nice upgrade. That’s it, there’s no other reason.
As for this whole “gamer” concept, what about Ortiz? I don’t know if you consider him a “gamer” or not, and it really doesn’t matter, but if I had to pick one Boston hitter to be in the pinstripes it would be Ortiz, not Pedroia or Youkilis. Not even a close call. Although to be sure I better find out if Ortiz is a gamer or not.
And what’s with the A-Rod comment? He was the best player in baseball this year. What, is he not “gamer” enough for you? Is that why he has never played in a World Series? Would you really like to have Mike Lowell on your dream team because Lowell has played in a World Series (and won as well!) while A-Rod has not? That Lowell sure is a gamer, let’s add him to the list with Pedroia and Youkilis and just admit that the Red Sox hitters are all gamers that we would rather have in pinstripes. Except for Lugo who is terrible. He is definitely not a gamer. And I was sure that Drew wasn’t a gamer for the last 6 months, until he hit that grand slam the other night. He’s 35% more gamer now because of that, especially because he did that during a game, rather than after or before a game, in which case it would not have affected his gamer status. And even though Manny is arguably their offensive MVP this postseason, he’s definitely not a gamer because he is too busy not caring if the Red Sox win. That disqualifies all potential “gamer” status for him, even though he has helped them win so many games.
Seriously think about that expression. Really, think about it. It means absolutely nothing. A “Gamer”? Haha.
And Peter King’s columns are terrible. He thinks that Romo is the third best candidate to be MVP in the NFL because he smiles more than any other player. I am not kidding, go read his latest column. What a joke.
Girardi
October 22nd, 2007 at 1:53 pm
I doubt it. Hank Steinbrenner at least appear to have a
head on his shoulder given his recent tongue-lashing of
Torre—which was much deserved and lont past due.
So I’m sure Hank also saw the following:
Any article by Woody Paige needs to be taken with a grain of salt just like those written by Mike Lupica. They are oversensationlized media folks who have sold any grain of journalistic intergrity to the evils of television. They now write like they speak on television – all fluff and no substance. Paige is a total idiot, ask any reader from the Rocky Mountain News/Denver Post, they will confirm.
Hank Steinbrenner – not sure he had a head on his shoulders.. Right now, it appears the Evil Sith Lord aka Randy Levine – is really making decisions. Hank and Hal may be decent business men but not all “baseball operations” information translates into bottom lines like building a hotel or ship or a new stadium…
“Cleveland 3B coach Joel Skinner might have cost his team the World Series.”
I agree, and I think Skinner knew too, he looked like he was going to vomit.
“Think about how much money it could cost the Yankees to retain Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera and Alex Rodriguez.”
Out of all the debates and the he-said she-saids, this is the one reason why I believe Yankees were not sincere in wanting Torre back. Because the $2.5mill paycut savings would not be nearly enough to cover the extra that they knew they’ll have to pay to resign Mo and Jorge, which management sure knew would be more difficult with torre gone.
“How many games into next season will it take before somebody writes that Joe Torre should replace Willie Randolph?”
I have a theory…could be way off. If I was Willie, I’d be willing to step aside to become bench coach to Joe as manager in 08. Torre isn’t going to manage forever, at his age, I would guess 3 more years tops. So stepping aside for a short time would mean Willie could gain experience from Torre, while having Job security for the next few years before resuming manager role again when Torre retires. That’s what I would do if I was Willie and has a long-term view. The alternative is getting fired from being manager by June 08 and end up with nothing.
“NBC’s Cris Collingsworth said last night the Patriots are the best team in NFL history.”
I don’t know about the Pats, but what I do know is that Collingsworth is the worst football commentator in NFL hostory.
I have an aside question:
Is there a chance that Beckett could surpass Arod as the AL MVP or have votes been counted already? Arod’s RBI and HR numbers are incomparable, but watching Beckett bring his team back gave me the chills (especially chilly as I detest the guy). So I’m getting worried, as Arod’s MVP is kind of the last bit of positive news for us from last 2 weeks’ collapse.
Chad Curtis?
As a Sox fan, today I take Cano over Pedroia. But in a week, I may be asking the same question Yankee fans used to ask me when Jeter V. Garciaparra was in vogue; “How many rings does Cano have?”
Cano has a lot of talent … his “upside” as an offensive player is certainly higher than Pedroia’s. But it wouldn’t hurt him to dive, at least occasionally, for balls on his backhand. He seems to have a matador approach on plays to his right.
Pedroia is being charged with phony hustle (which I dispute). But that’s better than the “big-time,” nonchalant approach that infects Cano’s game.
And I reiterate my earlier post. Pedroia has played brilliantly in elimination games. If Yankee fans ever want to reenter the Winner’s circle, they need people like that. Until the pressure is on, you can’t know how people will react (see Rodriguez, Alex).
Pete ,the 3rd base cost them a few runs for sure,but CC Sabathia cost them 2 games.In that last game he pitched, he should have ben yanked sooner.Their mgr suffered from the same thing Torre did,relie on the vet,and he wasn’t able to get the job done.
I heard an intresting tidbit on one of the sport shows(can’t remember which one)that CC’s pitching will cost him 20mil on the new contract negotiations,so instead of 100mil he may only get about 80mil.I sure want to see if that unfolds,should be intresting.
You forgot to mention the following players and their associated guages of “worthiness to be signed.”
- Brian Bruney: had a winning record in 2007
- Gary Bennett: played for the world champions in 2006
- Alex Gonzalez: hit a game-winning home run against the Yankees in the World Series in 2003
- Aaron Boone: (self-explanatory)
I could go on. That ARod comment might be the most idiotic thing I’ve ever read here.
Brian (Red Sox fan) – please learn something about sample size before you post about how great someone is in elimination games.
(and note, this has nothing to do with you being a Sox fan – I’d make the same comment to a Yankee fan. Congrats on the pennant, by the way)
Dee:
Yes the votes are counted for MVP.
If they weren’t, the postseason is not considered anyway.
And no, the chances of Beckett winning the MVP are about as close to zero as you can get.
If he even wins the Cy Young it will be a huge upside for people who understand the game.
Brian,
So you think Pedroia’s performance in elimination games is a repeatable skill? This sounds a lot like those who want more “Brossius types” over “Arod types”.
And I am glad that you are not the GM of the Yankees. If you think the fact that A-Rod has never played in a World Series is anywhere near Cashman’s thoughts as he tries to extend his contract, you are insane.
Try to follow this logic: whether or not your team makes a world series is a very TEAM dependent situation. This isn’t like basketball or hockey, where one man like Jordan or Gretzky can literally control the ball or puck on every play and dominate every play of every game. A-Rod can’t stop Jeter from grounding into those killer double plays against Cleveland. He has no control on what those 8 hitters do. His TEAMS have not been good enough to make the world series. But guess what, if you think A-Rod is not a player that can help any team he plays for win a world series, then you are not watching the games at all and are falling victim to a case of long term lazy thinking.
Whether or not he desevres the huge contract has nothing to do with the fact that he has never played in the world series. Go ahead and ask Cashman the next time you get a chance if that is even a factor in his mind when considering Alex’s possible future with the Yankees. I hope he laughs in your face.
swo -Agree on the pitching.
But on the cloning of the team, just saying that while the pitching had declined, so has bringing in “baseball players”.
Giambi – good hitter, bad baseball player
Sheffield – same
Matsui – same
to name a few….
Need more people willing to “win for the team” and not their stats – have to go back to the Angels. While they lack that extra punch, they are the best team and scrapping out runs, going from 1st to 3rd, hitting the cutoff man, situational stuff.
Uh…….what?
God, I have to get off this blog.
The posts are innane, and the comments are even worse. Now I have to read garbage about Sheffield and Matsui being bad baseball players.
i think the torre volley is the prelude to similar plays with rivera, posada and rodriguez. in life it’s hard to leave something on the table, and they all have varying degrees of success left, but on the whole, they cannot and will not be the core going forward. i’m with those who advocate jettison, and if we have to endure a 500ish year to get back to real energy and excellence, so be it. watching the red sox come back last night i realized how lacking the yankees have been for years, how cosmetic the late season rallies, and shallow the hunger – perhaps because there isn’t any.
funny how in 04 and 07 the red sox walked the talk while the yankees wordsmith. in many respects one could argue that torre was too little too late with the “energy” thing, and we shouldn’t have broken camp with an aging squad of brother-in-law of the year candidates. perhaps there was no choice…
my problem with mattingly is a vibe that like the latter torre years, he’s just comfortable and detached enough to lose. perhaps he will step in as the next great yankee manager, but there is something so appealing and human about tony pena.
personally i’m tired of the yankee deliverable being words. every nite until july that’s all we got. as a wordsmith myself, until i can sell my words for millions, i’m loath to be a consumer of that dreck. it’s insulting.
)
Yeah, I have no idea what’s going on here anymore. There used to be interesting discussion here, and instead all I read are doom-and-gloom speculations about the Yankees future and about how much better the Sox are than the Yankees.
As for Matsui and Sheffield….I have no comment. Sometimes absurdity will go away if you just leave it alone.
Question
Is there a possibility that one of the three candidates for the managerial spot end up as the assistant coach? I really want to see Pena as a manager or assistant if possible. Do the Yankees choose that or the manager. In my oppinion it should be Girardi and Pena in those positions. We would have the fire in the dugout and the spanish speaker to communicate with our latin players.
Chien Ming Wang = Sabbathia during the playoffs.
And on that note, I bid farewell to this blog for good.
Brian:
So now Cano has a “nonchalant” approach to the game? How many games have you watched Cano play? Have you watched him in pre-game drills, taking infield pointers from Larry Bowa? Have you watched him coming to the ballpark with ARod and Melky to workout hours before gametime when his teammates are still in the clubhouse or on their way to the game?
Cano’s game is much like Carew or Tony Fernandez, its graceful and seems effortless. That’s his style, his approach to playing baseball. Just because he doesn’t fall on his knees to field a grounder doesn’t mean he’s not a serious baseball player.
Did you ever have the privelege to watch Willie Mays patrol centerfield? I guess he was “big-time nonchalant” too, huh?
Pedroia plays 2nd base like his parents wouldn’t buy him a glove and he has to play bare handed and jump on the ball. It’s almost as cloying as Youkilis’ act.
That said, they both stepped up big time in the ALCS and our guys didn’t against the same pitchers. It would have been nice to see some clutch from Posada, Jeter, etc.
I’m really down on the Yankee hitters right now a lot. Seeing the Sox outscore the Indians 30-5 and have no trouble with any of the legendary Indian arms who turned our hitters into statues and our bats into sawdust has me convinced it’s time to shake it all up.
For whatever reason, our contact hitters stopped making contact and our power hitters stopped hitting homers until it was too late.
We swept Cleveland in the regular season and should have had beaten them in the ALDS.
Wang killed us. He’s the reason why we lost, but our hitters are a very close 2nd.
The Red Sox made Carmona look like Bartolo Colon. We made him look like Cy Young and I won’t even get into those bullpen guys in Cleveland who we couldn’t even start a rally against, yet the Sox crushed them.
The Yanks should be embarrassed by their showing in the ALDS.
If I were A Rod, I would opt out. Same logic that says the Yankees will go overboard to retain Posada and Rivera should be applied to Alex too. The Yankees cannot lose A Rod from a business standpoint. Boras knows this and if the Yankees don’t hit the number he will opt out. If I were A Rod I would go play for the Angels or Dodgers. Get as far away from NY as possible.
Ok, if saying Matsui and Sheffield are bad baseball players, what exactly do they do to help thier team – talking small things, intangibles, not home runs or striking out with bases loaded an no out, or trying to pull the ball on every pitch/popping up.
I am talking about knowing how to handle a situation, throw to the right base, take the right route to a ball, etc. These are the things that make a good baseball player, not just hitting HR’s.
Your disagreement does not make the statement absurd.
Here’s one more random thought:
11. Terry Francona will be managing the American League All-Star team at Yankee Stadium next year. If that’s not a cosmic rub in the face I don’t know what is.
Pete also said the following:
“I’m not saying Pedroia is better than Cano. He’s not. But Pedroia is somebody I would want on my team. He’s a gamer.”
Ok sure Pedroia is someone that you would normally want on your team (if Cano wasn’t there) and I agree with that, but if we are going this route of taking any players we would want on our team, I’ll go with this list:
C – Martinez
1B – Pujols
2B – Utley
3B – Rodriguez
SS – Ramirez
LF – Holliday
CF – Sizemore
RF – Guerrero
DH – Ortiz
They are probably all gamers. Although Martinez, Utley, A-Rod, Hanley Ramirez, Sizemore, and Guerrero have never played in a World Series so this team might be fatally flawed.
If I am the Yankees, I absolutely don’t trade any of our young pitchers (Hughes, Kennedy, Wang, Chaamberlian) for Santana. Since 2001, we have been chasing WS rings by throwing $$ at FA and it hasn’t worked.
The best way for the Yankees to leverage their money is to develop their own talent from within. For example, if we cut our payroll by $80 million and use it to overpay on prospects . Given the current system, we could throw $120 million/year (no luxury tax to pay) into the draft and thus easily price many teams out of the running for top level prospects ($2-$5 million/player).
Pete,
You made MLB Rumors page…. Nice job.
Santana for Melky, Hughes, and Prospect?
Tim recently posted about the Yanks inquiries into the Twins organization for Johan Santana. Peter Abraham shares what he’s heard of the rumors for the lefty ace.
Melky Cabrera would give Minnesota a center fielder to replace Torii Hunter if he bolts. The Yankees could then offer the Twins Phil Hughes or Ian Kennedy along with a second prospect.
If Melky and Kennedy plus a prospect can land Santana, I can’t see why the Yankees wouldn’t do that, even if only for the opportunity to get a leg up on signing baseball’s best pitcher to a long term deal. But I would assume it would take a lot more. Lots of names are being tossed around along with Philip Hughes, particularly Robinson Cano, names that are most likely the premium the Twins would demand and perhaps a deal-breaker for the Yankees
When the Indians beat the Yankees, that was their World Series. For the Yankees not hitting Paul Byrd, well, they should be ashamed that they wore the uniform that night. I know we would have beaten them in a 7 game series though. Damn, I guess I’m still in shock from the whole thing.
What do you mean by the “religious” Byrd? Are we supposed to assume those who are religious are more moral then the non-religious and therefor less likely to cheat? I believe that the religious have proven throughout the centuries to be no more moral then those of lacking or totally devoid of religion. Please don’t reinforce this wrongheaded stereotype.
How you don’t trade any of those people for Santana is beyond me. Santana is a sure thing: he’s a proven ace, an ace among aces, and a win every 5 days with a Yankee lineup. As good as ALL of those players you name are, none of them are proven yet; Santana is.
I’m a huge proponent of going back to a farm system, and not going for the overhyped, over-the-hill free agents. But Santana is the exception to the rule for me. He’s just too good.
Chris Collingsworth writes better songs than Springsteen.
CGramazio You just made me sick!
Well another stubborn Yankee Fan here as well.. Youkilis or Pedroia no thanks… Youkilis has no class and Pedroia would need a boaster seat on the Team Plane;)
I wonder who leaked Byrd’s name??
I can’t believe I’m replying to this, but here goes:
1) Your notion of what a good baseball player is is messed up. I do get what you’re trying to say, but if a player hit a home run every time up but dropped every ball hit to him and then threw the ball into the stands instead of first base, you would call him a “bad baseball player”, while I would call him the most valuable baseball player ever.
2) Matsui is about the most fundamentally sound players you’ll ever see. Seems like you are punishing him for his last month, while he was hurt.
3) You see a player who gets some hits with the bases loaded, down by 2 runs in the 8th inning. I see “small sample size” and “selective memory”.
4) I don’t know how you could single out Sheffield anyway. He is very decent defensively, hits fine in clutch situations (not that clutch hitting exists, but I degress), and has an attitude problem. Maybe that’s why he’s not a good baseball player to you?
5) This “good/bad player” blanket statement IS absurd. If you prefer a fundamentally-sound guy who isn’t a great hitter but always throws to the right base, that’s your choice. In some cases, guys like this ARE better than good hitters – IF the gap between their offensive production is small enough. But even the most fundamentally sound player saves a relatively small number of runs. Take Giambi circa 2006 vs. Mientkiewicz of 2007. I know who you would call a better “baseball player.” You’d be dead wrong (at least if your goal is winning games).
6) You’re drastically over-weighting rare situations, much like 99% of the people who watch, write about, and comment on professional baseball. ANYTHING can happen in a short series, or even worse, an individual game or AB.
Ok, that’s enough for now.
The so-called new hierarchy have no interest in a public relations disaster after the Torre fiasco and are not about to hire a new manager under the premise of a short leash. Not with a season of important development in new younger players, signing of free agents for continuity, an All Star game, and closing of a historic venue. The insanity of it could cause the most storied franchise in all of sports to be a laughingstock. Baseball needs to have the Yankees presence every year to keep exceeding records being broken every year for fan interest in the game itself.
CGramazio, even worse than Francona managing the game, he could have seven Red Sox players in the game. Manny, Ortiz, Yukilis, Pedroia, Matsuzaka, Beckett, Papelbon and I’m probably missing someone else. Sadly I think we are entering the golden age of the Red Sox.
“11. Terry Francona will be managing the American League All-Star team at Yankee Stadium next year. If that’s not a cosmic rub in the face I don’t know what is.”
That’s a terrible thought. And to think that we could be losing 2 out of our 3 players who made 07 all-star just down right makes me sick.
Well I hope I get tickets to the game, I will be front and center booing them.
Trading 3 major league players (including 2 pitchers) for Johan and then paying him 25 mil a year to boot is just silly. Santana is a better pitcher than Wang, but at the end of the day he’s not going to win many more games. Wang has won 38 games over the past 2 years and despite this seasons post season melt down, he has pitched well in the playoffs the 2 years prior. That trade just doesnt make the Yanks better. If you could pull that trade off and keep Wang (and hughes and Joba) then it makes sense. But adding him at the expense of Wang and Kennedy doesnt make any sense at all. I agree with a couple of the other posters, stop chasing “sure thing” players from other teams and continue to build from within.
It must be hard for you to not be blatantly cheering for your beloved sox on your Yankees blog so instead you intimate how much of a “gamer” the short little guy playing 2b is and you take a shot at A-Rod.
Pedroia? The gutty, gritty slow white dude? Nah, I’ll stick with the talented Dominican (i think) dude that the Yanks have.
I swear this could have been ripped right off a post at SOSH. Unreal.
Sorry i wouldnt want pediroa or youk on my team. youk whines and pedrioa is way over his head. i hate them both. nope. not on my yankees.
jon – agree with your assessment.
My example of players is simply what is coming to mind. Sheffield, perhaps unfairly included but never liked the signing and still see no value of having him on a team.
But for Matsui/Giambi – I think my assessment is fair. Neither is what they should be, short of roids or injury, Matsui is not the player I want in the line up when I need an all around performance. Giambi is definately not someone I want in the line either. Neither is feared as a hitter, both are subject defensively..
What I don’t want are guys with offensive numbers but bring nothing else to the table. There has to be more value than just offensive production – and not just throwing to the right base or knowing how to run bases – it is more about getting the job done, most of what the Yankees have had since 2001 have been players who look good on paper but fail to get the job done.
Maybe the real issue is that the collection of leaders from the team are gone – O’Neil, Tino, Cone, etc.
Or maybe I am just tired of seeing other teams perform when they should perform and seeing the Yankees wilt – why does Clev hit 50% or better with 2 outs and Yankees look at strike three. How does Boston or the Angels consistently find a base hit or Sac fly with runners in scoring postion and the Yankees ground out or strike out.
And no I am not limiting my sample size.
The essence of Pete’s comments re: Pedroia and Youkilis is that they have come up big in big games this postseason. This is one thing, among many others, the 2007 Yankees lacked in the postseason and is a significant part of the reason they’re playing golf right now.
Pete did not write: ‘I want to have Pedroia to replace Cano as the 2B for NYY next year.’
Some of these comments are maddeningly frustrating. Most just sound like sour grapes. What do you expect, I guess.
BTW, I love the post about the Red Sux being classless b/c they swear and complain about umpiring etc… They’re ballplayers, what do you expect? You think the Yanks don’t swear or argue calls? You’ve deluded yourself.
PB – WELL SAID!!!!!!!!! SPOT ON!!!!!!!
Pediroa & Youk are carny folk…little man and sweaty freak..too ugly to be yankees
If Mattingly is the manager, who’s the bench coach? Any chance one of the former managers would consider the position? Pena? bowa? I personally think that Girardi would be the best option, although I doubt he’d take it.
1. It’s “Collinsworth.”
2. What does A-Rod’s having never played in a World Series have to do with anything? Is David Eckstein better than Alex Rodriguez?
3. Actually, I don’t want Pedroia “in pinstripes.”
If the Yankees are interested in rebuilding the dynasty, they will hold on to their youth (Chamberlain, Hughes, Kennedy, Melky, Cano and yes – Wang) and let them make the dynasty. Santana is like a piece of cheesecake. You know that you shouldn’t eat it, but it looks so good you just can’t resist.
I’d love for Santana to be a Yankee, but not if we have to give up any of the young guys. If we can get the Twins to take Giambi, Farnsworthless and maybe DelSalvo or Clippard, then make the deal. Otherwise, hold on to our young!!!
This is as random as it gets, but every time i look at Youkilis, I feel like punching something. I would definitely love to punch him that’s for sure. I know some of you feel the same way!
Yes Pepper you are still using a small sample size.
You want guys that get the job done? Like Tino, Brosius, and so forth?
Look up the postseason career stats of all the great Yankees from those late 90′s teams. I’ll give you their batting averages in the postseason. There are far better stats to evaluate hitters than batting average, but most people are comfortable with BA so I’ll stick with it here.
Jeter – .309
O’Neill – .284
Williams – .275
Brosius – .245
Posada – .236
Martinez – .233
And here are the career postseason averages for more recent Yankees:
Matsui – .302
Rodriguez – .279
Damon – .278
Sheffield .248
Anything there surprise you? These great yankees from the 90′s did not get the job done nearly as much as you think they did. But here’s what happened. The Yankees pitching in those championship years was great. They held the other team to a very low number of runs scored. Think about even the Arizona series, where you fondly remember Brosius and Tino and jeter’s homers. The other team was up 2-0 and 3-1 in the 9th inning of games 4 and 5 before those comebacks started. When you are only losing by 2 runs, there is a greater chance that a homer will be of the dramatic nature. The pitching put the hitters in a better position to do something dramatic.
Now look at the Yankee teams since 2004. The Yankees have had below league average pitching every year since 2004. The pitching is why they lose in the postseason. The bats have disappointed in October, but that’s because you face a lot better pitching in the postseason. Most players with 300+ AB’s in the postseason have a much worse batting average in the postseason than in the regular season (like Tino, Posada, etc). It is harder to score in the postseason. You need better pitching.
Look at the Yankees this year. Game 4, A-Rod and Abreu hit “meaningless” solo homers while the Yankees were losing by 3 runs or more. But if Wang and Mussina did a better job of pitching and keeping the margin at 1 or 2 runs, a solo homerun or two would be huge in magnitude and the hitter would be praised as being clutch and all that other stuff. But the pitching let the game get out of hand. Just like with Jaret Wright and Randy Johnson in 2006, and Johnson and Mussina in 2005. And Wang’s 2 games in 2007. Do you realize how difficult it is to overcome that awful pitching from multiple starters in a 5 game series??
The Yankees have not had a shutdown starter in the postseason in a very long time. Now with Hughes and Chamberlain, there is hope that we will once again have that. The hitting is not the problem in the postseason. It is the pitching, clearly.
“They may be Red Sox, but only a stubborn Yankees fan would not want Kevin Youkilis or Dustin Pedroia in pinstripes. Those guys are gamers.”
count me among the stubborn ones. it’s interesting that dominican players aren’t called gamers in the way pete is calling youkillis ansd pedroia gamers.
i’m not going to bash peter for not growing up a yankee fan, but there are some things he doesn’t get because of not growing up a yankee fan. there is an intangible quality about core yankee players that is hard to define ,but easy to see. jeter has it. posada. rivera.pettitte all have it. there is a quiet toughhness. there are players like o’neill who fit in with some extroverted behavior,but o’neill’s acting out was always directed at himself. youkillis is clearly an in your face kind of player i would not like playing with or against the guy.
back in the day nettles was a core yankee. bill lee was not and never could be. real yankees and real red sox are like oil and water. it’s a different dna. when you put the two together you get bill lee’s butt kicked. that’s just the way it is. peter a. can’t see that lee and youkillis could never be yankees, but any yankee fan who’s grown up with the team can see it at a glance.
“a solo home run or two would be huge in magnitude and the hitter would be praised as being clutch”
Excellent point here…it’s said over and over but pitching truly makes the difference and it’s what’s killed us over and over again…looking forward to next year and trying not to let the mass flood of panic over Torre’s departure flood me over
Tusho, very well put.
But I’d argue that the Yankees have NEVER had a shutdown starter (since 1996). They had some very good starters who pitched great games in the postseason.
They currently also have some very good starters. Unfortunately this year, they (specifically Wang) pitched more bad games than good games, and they lost.
Wang pitched a good game in 2005 against the Angels and the Yankees lost the series.
Pettitte has pitched a TON of bad postseason games. Also a TON of great ones. Nobody would ever call him a “shutdown” pitcher, but they just remember the good starts.
96,97,98, and 2000 were just years where a lot of things went right in the same series, and Yankees won. That isn’t to say they weren’t the best team, or that they shouldn’t be rewarded for playing the best in those small handfuls of games.
But to criticize the roster’s makeup for the few years really doesn’t make sense. The postseason really is a crapshoot.
Pop quiz: what’s Johan Santana’s career postseason ERA?
do what it takes to get johan santana .
“Cleveland 3B coach Joel Skinner might have cost his team the World Series. Kenny Lofton could have walked home on that play. The complexion of that game changes a lot at 3-3. The Indians should be ashamed of themselves.”
He should be ashamed for making a mistake in a game eventually lost 11-2? Asinine comment.
Are you kidding me? Your comment is assine. If he would have made it home the entire complexion of the game would have been different. Okie would have lost his wits, and Paplebon would have had to come in for a 2 plus inning save. You cannot just look at the end score and say it didn’t matter.
markitup:
Momentum changer.
Jon, Matsui might be a good fundamental baseball player but at best a very average outfielder, slow to react, little mobility and with a weak arm. The inside the park homerun Granderson hit off Hughes in Comerica missed by Matsui in LF would have been caught by for an out by either Damon or Melky.
“I’d never be confident in Matsuzaka. Cleveland lost that game, Boston didn’t win it.”
Yankee fan in boston you get the award for dumbest comment of the day, and that’s saying something! Congrats
Tusho
I looked at those stats earlier this year when I saw a bunch of K’s and GIDP on a Yankees Classics ALDS and WS game on YES. For some people, perception has become reality and rings have blurred their memories.
No markitup I think that award belongs to you.
Let me just say this…
It amazes me how patient the redsox hitters were this series against cleveland (minus, lugo,crisp). What the F*$% ever happened to the Yankees being so patient. Seriously, look at the clips how our at bats were compared to bostons at bats. It really shows how eager and anxious we were at the plate. When we faced Carmona — and last year against detroit as well — the hit the first fast ball and be aggressive approach backfired. I cannot believe the Yankee’s have forgotton how to “MAKE A PITCHER WORK!”.
Sometimes you can’t get out of that pattern yourself, and you need someone like a hitting coach or a manager to pick up on that. So all of you that think Joe Torre is such a great manager.. and ‘handling the press’ does not make a great manager, then how could he not see that was so evident. I’ll tell you why… Joe is too passive, he’d rather would let his players fumble on their own, than critisize them. As Joe would say, “They are professionals they know their job”. We’ll that is bull to me, obviously they have not known their jobs for awhile.. and neither has management and coaches.
And believe this.. I am not a joe torre hater… but face the dang facts, his time was up.. mark my words a new manager is totally needed here, even if it takes us a few years to restructure.
Stop being afraid of change.
The momentum clearly shifted with that play, then Blake grounds into the double play, taking some wind out of the Indians’ sails. Blake then makes the error in the bottom half, leading to the two-run homer which takes the last gasp out of Cleveland. So that decision not to send Lofton changed everything. Leveling the game at 3 would have given Cleveland the momentum, but Boston felt a jolt when Cleveland failed to score. It’s no coincidence, Boston felt a jolt when they saw the heads of the Cleveland players looking down. Momentum is very powerful and it’s hard to overestimate how much that it means.
Yeah they are always very patient during the season, but a switch seems to turn in the playoffs and it goes out the window.
Who are we going to give up to get Johan?
I am feeling Orel Hershiser for Pitching coach what about you guys?
“I am feeling Orel Hershiser for Pitching coach what about you guys?”
Won’t happen. They want Dave Eiland because of the time he’s spent working with Hughes, Joba and Kennedy.
One last thing about Torre and then I’m going to drop him because he’s the past and we need to be looking towards the future.
During this whole Torre staying/leaving thing, I was on the fence about whether he should stay or go. What switched me 100% over to the “GO” side was his comments about the bug game. While I appreciate the fact that he now knows that he made a mistake by not pushing the issue with the umps, what killed me was that he said that Guidry told him that Joba couldn’t see. Okay, so your extremely young pitcher is out on the mound during a close playoff game, being swarmed by bugs and he can’t see. What do you do? Joe did nothing. Absolutely nothing.
If that’s not a sign that he needed to move on, I don’t know what else is.
God knows that I adore Don Mattingly, but I’m not 100% sure he wouldn’t make the same mistake Torre did. For that reason, I’m backing Girardi. I don’t think he’s going to get it, but that’s who I’m hoping for.
Tusho, you can pick and choose, but that early team hit much better with risp and all the bats did not go dead at once. Yes they had the pitching, and also played very good defense, but more importantly had timely hits to score runs. For example in the 96 series, Soho hit .600, Leyritz .375, Fielder .391, In the series 98 Brosius .471, Jeter 353, Knoblauch .375, Ledee .600, Martinez .385, Posada .333 I believe Posada was the catcher in 2000 but Girardi for the other three rings. Your figures are a bit deceiving.
Jon:
I know the idea of sample sizes for analysis is well thought out.
With AROD, is it unfair for the YF to use a small size? Are we concerned with what he did in the PS before becoming A Yank? Since 04, his PS sample size doesn’t compare to some of MLB elites, like Pujols, Ortiz or Manny. Even in the short series’. Should he be demanding the far and away highest $ in MLB?
Check the first 7 full for AROD & Pujols. Pretty close.
BTW: Santana’s career PS era is almost 4. His last 2 appearances pretty good though.
Pat and Tusho -
Both of you make great points.
Pat – I have noticed exactly the same things in watching the “Classics” on YES. There was great timely hitting, but the games were not perfectly executed at all times.
Tusho – I especially agree with your point about the pitching keeping the score low, and manageable. Plus, what cannot happen is starting pitching not being able to go into the 7th and 8th innings on a regular basis. So perhaps the Yankees did not have the one pitcher you couldn’t get past, but ALL of the pitchers were very good in those championship seasons. I’d rather have 4 very good than one ace and the rest very mediocre.
Beckett for RS is absolutely an ace for them this season; but there 2, 3 and 4 guys are also very good. Not great, but very good. That’s key.
fleas – the Carmona who face the Yankees was not the same guy who faced the sox. He had 1/10th the control vs. the sox. It was much easier for them to be patient when he couldn’t throw a strike.
Laura — I’m with you. After that admission about the bugs and then watching the Boston hitters wipe up against Cleveland pitching for most of the series, I do think that mistakes were made and there was mis-handling going on with the team in the post season.
After Joe’s press conference, I was at first upset about what happened…but seeing a team attack like Boston did this weekend made me quickly realize that for some reason, he was not getting the most of his players in the post season all of sudden.
I think Rusty put it best in here when he said Grandpa Joe made it okay to fail. Even if you struck out with the bases loaded on a ball 1.5 feet out of the strike zone, Grandpa Joe would still love you and pat you on the back and protect you from big bad George and the big bad media.
That has to change. I think Girardi is the guy to change it.
I’m completely overwhelmed with opinions after reading through these threads, so much to say so little time. so many people to agree with and other who are just completely out of touch with reality.
Regarding Lofton & the Indians loss; the first thing i noticed when he hit that pop up that was dropped was that he was trotting down to first base with a look of disgust on his face, and then turned it on at the last minute to leg out the double. Had he ran hard the whole way, Lofton would have been on third and scored on the next single, totally eliminating the Skinner debaucle. Regardless, Lofton is a veteran who knew it was a mistake to not go home, you saw it on his face when he put the brakes on – he should have ran that stop sign and went. Additionally, the Indians missed three homers by a couple of feet, two off the bat of Garko and i believe one off the bat of Martinez. Just goes to show how much luck plays into this game. And enough of this final score business, its all momentum, the Indians pull ahead in that inning, one of those balls goes out for a 2 or 3 run HR and the momentum shifts, you can’t say it didn’t matter because they wound up blowing the game open later on – maybe that never happens with revitalized morale in the Cleveland dugout.
What lost it for Cleveland against Boston was what won it for them against the Yankees: pitching. Sabathia and Carmona were awful in their last two starts, and it was obvious that this teams morale and determination was drained from the ALDS and what had transpired so far in this series: they ran out of gas, and it was exacerbated by finishing off the series in Fenway. The bullpen finally had its statistically-inevitable meltdown facing elimination in the twilight of their season, and blew the game (although i swore it was gonna be Borowski in the 9th rather than Jensen Lewis and Betancourt).
Someone noted had this been a 5 game series, the Indians would have won 3-1, which is a very important detail. If the 5 game series is an excercise in futility and luck, the seven game is surely a test of endurance and consistency – Cleveland didn’t have it.
I have no doubt in my mind that the Yankees, healthy and at their best, would have rolled over Cleveland and very well could have beaten the Sox. I’ll always point the finger at Chien Ming Wang and Midges for 2007, half the games we played were out of reach before the bats ever had a chance to make magic, out of the remaining two, one was spoiled by an act of god or whatever, if you add it all up – did we really ever have a chance?
Laura -
I have to say that I agree with you about the bugs with regard to Torre not having the game delayed. I’m sure that if you tell the umpire that your pitcher, who throws 95-100 mph, cannot see, the umpire would probably delay the game. I know Torre is not a controversial guy, and that’s part of what I admired about him – he was steady – this was a time when he should have gone and fought for his pitcher and he did not. I can overlook pitching changes and all the strategic stuff, because people can go back and forth on that, and a lot of times, it comes down to, did the player do what he was expected to do? If not, how can it be the manager’s fault? But the bugs? No. Joe does not get the benefit of the doubt on that one.
I wish we could keep Torre for the regular season and then switch to someone else (I don’t know who, just rambling here…)in the post-season. Joe’s approach/demeanor works well over 162 games. The Yanks did not panic this year, they just went to work. Joe deserves credit for that.
But tactics matter much more in a short series. The bugs, starting Wang on the road where he is less effective (stats, anyone?)… Maybe Girardi or Donnie or Tony P.does better in those situations.
G. Love -
I don’t think a manager should throw his players under the bus, but no, I don’t think there should be anything wrong with a well-timed kick in the butt, so to speak. The one thing we don’t know is whether Joe ever kicked that butt out of earshot and camera range.
I don’t debate the Yankees desire to win. But I do think they press too hard at the exact wrong times. There is always so much at stake. For other teams, a World Series is “just” a World Series. For the Yankees, it’s always a 100 other things as well.
“I don’t debate the Yankees desire to win. But I do think they press too hard at the exact wrong times. There is always so much at stake. For other teams, a World Series is “justâ€? a World Series. For the Yankees, it’s always a 100 other things as well.’
100% exactly right. They seem joyless. But look who did come through a bit? The kids: Cano had two HRs, and even Melky had one, although his ALDS avg. was lousy
Yes, it’s Collinsworth. For what it’s worth.
“I wish we could keep Torre for the regular season and then switch to someone else (I don’t know who, just rambling here…)in the post-season. Joe’s approach/demeanor works well over 162 games. The Yanks did not panic this year, they just went to work. Joe deserves credit for that.
But tactics matter much more in a short series. The bugs, starting Wang on the road where he is less effective (stats, anyone?)… Maybe Girardi or Donnie or Tony P.does better in those situations.”
I agree completely with this. I don’t know that the Yankees even make the playoffs under anyone else this year but I was stratching my head at some of the decisions. I’d add to your examples with not putting baserunners in motion a lot more. How many double plays killed rallys? It was frustrating watching Damon not running and Jeter hitting into so many double plays. And I don’t have a problem with him keeping Matsui in the lineup but he should have moved him down in the lineup and moved Cano up. Cano would have provided a lot more protection for A-Rod.
As has been said many, many times before “The Post Season is indeed a crapshoot.” Any team that is talented enough to make the Post Season has a shot at going all the way to the Championship. Recent Post Season history has proven that over and over again.
Since 2004, the Yankees have experienced a combination of poor starting pitching and horrible hitting with RISP.
Between 2004 and 2007 Post Season, the Yankees have not had good starting pitching. In most games they have lost, especially in 2005, 2006, 2007, the Yankees typically find themselves down 3-0 in the 2nd, or 4-0 in the 3rd or 5/6 runs by the 5th. That puts huge pressure on the lineup. In many cases, even when they get base runners, the hitting with RISP has been dismal.
Is this a phase? Do we expect too much? Certainly many of these guys (Jeter, Posada, ARod, Abreu, Matsui) have come up big in key regular season games against there chief rivals (Boston – September 2006, Boston September 2007, Cleveland: W6-0 in 2007). This year, Wang, Pettitte, Hughes (in September), Kennedy, even Clemens have shown they are capable of shutting down offenses.
Teams get hot. Players get hot. Pedroia and Drew couldn’t buy a hit in the first 4 games against the Indians. Then all of a sudden you can’t get them out!
Carmona looked like Nolan Ryan against the
Yanks. He looked like Buddy Ryan against the Red Sox.
Betancourt? Lights out throughout the Post Season, then gives it up in Game 7.
Momentum is a real factor in Post Season play. It can change a player’s or team’s confidence on a single pitch, a single play.
The fantastic run of the 1996-2003 Yankees has spoiled a lot of people. In the Era of ALDS and ALCS the yankees have a phenomenal run – only the Braves can claim anything near this success – and NY won 4 World titles.
If you make the Post Season, your shot at winning a World championship is the same as every other Team.
Be happy you’re a Yankee Fan! They’ll be there again next year, too!
God, Jeter strikes out a lot. If Damon was in motion and Jeter swung and missed and Damon was out, you’d be bitching about that.
The entire point is that over 162 games, things even out and the best team almost always has a better record. In the posteason, anything can happen, and it’s (usually) not the fault of anyone.
It’s easy to blame the people who are involved in crucial plays, but baseball is not a sport where anyone can be expected to succeed at any given time. Starting pitchers are inconsistent. That is a fact. Sometimes they are going to have bad games, and sometimes good games.
Players are going to strike out and hit into double plays. It happens, and it has nothing to do with some “inablity” to play in the postseason.
People make me sick. Even the announcers on TV talked about the relative inexperience of the Indians. It’s a load of crap. So ok, the inexperience wasn’t an issue against the Yankees but it was against the Red Sox?
Look. Things are random. The better team will win more often than not but the more I watch and learn, the more clear it is that the postseason is meaningless. There is too much chance, randomness, and inconsistency in the game. The best players fail often, and the teams that happen to have fewer of them fail at the right time (i.e. the postseason) are the champions. And it’s as simple as that.
Let me ask you all one thing.
What if it went like this?
1996 – Lose ALDS
1997 – Win WS
1998 – Lose ALCS
1999 – Lose ALDS
2000 – Win WS
2001 – Lose ALDS
2002 – Lose WS
2003 – Win WS
2004 – Lose WS
2005 – Lose ALDS
2006 – Win WS
2007 – Lose ALDS
You’d be saying “holy crap, this team is amazing – they make it to the postseason every year, they consistently win it every few years…they’re always good.”
But since they won it a lot in the beginning, and lost early on recently, all of a sudden they choke, forget how to hit and pitch.
They had an extremely unlikely good run, and we were all spoiled by it.
They are a good team, and always have been. But the best teams only win 70% of the time. This is not college football where there are huge upsets. NOthing is really an upset in baseball.
Pete – Boston can keep Octopus Head and the Keebler Elf…I’ll take Cano and any other 1B in Baseball over those two…just for a pure irritation factor i.e. large head, abnormally large goatee (so 90s), and constant whining from a guy who isnt good enough to whine i.e. Paul O’neil who was.
@ “You do understand no A-Rod this year means no post season this year right?”
Agreed! If A-Rod didn’t have the monster year….NO WAY we even make post season.
His numbers were good for what?…at least 10 games? AT LEAST.
Anyhoo….I hope we resign him, and I hope no rumors about Torii surface anytime soon. A 32-year old with.271 is not at all appealing.
Pete, you are a hack for citing “never played in a World Series” as a knock on Rodriguez. Seriously. Then you defend it when someone calls you out on it. You know what, Derek Jeter hasn’t led his team to a W.S. in several years, the Yankees should void his contract.
You are aware that:
1) In the game of baseball, each team has 25 men on it’s roster. Not just 1.
2) In the game of American Rules Baseball game there are “pitchers” whose job it is to throw a baseball past opposing hitters. Their efforts greatly influence the outcome of games.
3) In the post season, a teams best hitter rarely is given opportunities to beat the other team. That’s why guys like David Eckstein wind up with W.S. MVPs.
4) Matsui, Jeter, Giambi and Posada have all sucked like crazy in the last couple of post-seasons. Let’s not give them any money either!
Fred said “funny how in 04 and 07 the red sox walked the talk while the yankees wordsmith. in many respects one could argue that torre was too little too late with the “energyâ€? thing, and we ”
Fred? Have you been a Yankee fan long? The Red Sox sell noise EVERY year. If you talk smack for 90+ years….you’re bound to get lucky once (or twice).
They walked the talk in ’04 (finally)after talking the talk for almost a century and NEVER walking the talk. So get with the program and stop acting like their fans and claiming they’re akin to some kind of “winning tradition”.
“And Yukolis can’t take a shot. 3 weeks on the bench after the HBP, when Jeter would have missed a few games.”
Pretty sure thats cause the season was already a lock and they didn’t want to rush him back. I’d like to see you take a shot at Youk in a bar and see who’s left standing.