Wang to the Twins makes little sense
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- October
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One of the rumors going around is that the Yankees could send Chien-Ming Wang and prospects to Minnesota for Johan Santana.
Riddle me this, Batman. Why would the Twins want a sinkerball specialist like Wang? He is 7-3 with a 4.85 ERA in 11 career starts on turf, 39-15, 3.58 on grass.
The Twins will be in their park for at least another two years. Add in games in Toronto and Tampa and Wang would make roughly 19 starts a year on turf.
He’s also arbitration eligible, a huge factor for the penny-pinching Twins. Why would they want to pay for the success he has had with the Yankees?
I don’t see how that trade makes much sense. The Yankees have the pieces to make a deal with the Twins if they want, but Wang makes little sense to Minnesota.
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Meanwhile, on a few other issues:
Paul O’Neill is not going to be a coach. He lives in Cincinnati with his family and nearly all of the games he did for YES were in the midwest, that’s how little he was interested in coming back to New York.
Bernie Williams is not going to be a coach, either. He went after fly balls like Dora the Explorer and ran the bases like he was blindfolded. He was a very productive player but he’s not a teacher. Bernie also has a very quiet, introverted personality. That’s not what you want in a coach.
It would be very interesting to see if the Yankees have the guts to go with a first-year manager in Mattingly and a first-year pitching coach in Dave Eiland. Maybe they would hire Leo Mazzone and make Eiland the bullpen coach.
Girardi’s pitching coach in Florida, Rick Kranitz, was hired by Baltimore.
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on Tuesday, October 23rd, 2007 at 1:21 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Pete,
I think Wang’s name comes up because for the Twins to justify dealing Santana, it has to be for more than just prospects.
If you trade for a guy who has actually won more games than Santana the last two years, its a way for the Twins to sell their end of the deal to its fan base.
I do agree with you, Wang’s numbers on turf are an issue. However, I understand why his name is being brought up concerning a possible Santana trade.
Pete, you are too funny! Dora the Explorer, indeed!
Man, if Leo Mazzone ends up being the pitching coach, I’m going to need a supply of dramamine.
Too bad. I wouldn’t mind seeing O’Neill throwing Gatorade coolers around the dugout again. Alas.
Where was this rumor posted???
I’d prefer Girardi over Mattingly, if only because of his successful stint with the Marlins, but I’m fine with either Mazzone or Eiland as pitching coach.
I also laughed at the “Dora the Explorer” comment.
Santana is a domiant ACE. While Wang is good, he is not a domiant ACE. Wang, Melky, and young arm(not named Joba or Hughes) makes sense to me.
Sorry I can’t spell…..
Is there a sense whether Santana will go to the open market or if he will be enticed to sign a long term extension? I cannot imagine the Twins letting the best pitcher in baseball leave without getting something, but they may try to open up the bank for him like they did with Radke. If he is going to hit the open market, why not keep the prospects and offer him Giambi’s money?
Mazzone would be a good addition as pitching coach. He is the one who really got Erik Bedard to put it all together. Bedard had been someone with decent upside until he became a Cy Young candidate this year before his oblique injury. It will also be easy to tell what Leo is thinking. When he is rocking back and forth, everything is all right. The time to worry is when he stops rocking. That means that he is mad!
Pete-
You asking those questions sparked one of my own. Since no one has or will ever again wear 21, when is Paul O’Neill Day going to be? Have you heard anything about it? Any info would be great.
Thanks,
Ryan
The Twins won’t be parting with Santana unless they get a top prospect in return – that means Joba from the Yankees, Buchholtz from the Red Sox, Homer Bailey from the Reds, etc, plus some other solid young players. That means depleting the farm for the Yanks and Cash isn’t going to do that. While I’d be first in line to knock the Twins’ GM on the noggin to befuddle him into a Wang, Melky, Kennedy deal, – not going to happen. It’d take a player like Cano as well for the Twins to even consider that deal, and the Yankees are not giving up Cano.
Greco- The point isn’t whether Wang for Santana is good for NY. The point is it’s probably not best for Minnesota, which makes it unlikely regardless of whether NY wants it.
The Twins have had Carlos Silva for a while and he is a crappier version of Wang. Silva is a free agent, and he will command around 10 million per year for 3 or 4 years, which I don’t think the Twins will pay. So Wang would be cheaper than that. And so if they get some top prospects and an upgrade over Silva, they might just do it since Santana will be leaving anyway soon enough and they can’t wait too long.
Santana not playing the free agent market as the best player in baseball makes little sense; thus, trading away good young players for just one year of Santana also makes little sense.
The Red Sox made a rental trade for Eric Gagne (who was doing well in Texas) this season, and Gagne had an awful finiah, and he’s gone after the World Series. I’d hate to see the Yankees do something similar.
(Meant to say best pitcher, not best player.)
Pete
I would agree with you on Paulie, but one thing threw some doubt in there and made me think he might be interested in coaching. Either the day of or the day after (sorry, I can’t remember which) Torre rejected the deal from the Yankees Michael Kay had O’Neill on his radio show and asked Paul if he was going to lose him as a broadcast partner…if he would take a coaching job if one of his two old teammates/friends Mattingly or Girardi ended up getting the job. He didn’t say no…he actually kind of danced around it a bit. Now that might have been out of respect for Torre and the coaches still in place, but it made me think he might be interested.
I think the Yankees should wait till he hits the market or try a mid-season trade with lesser players. A winter trade means weakening the team’s future. They have a LOT of money coming off the books at the end of next year (Giambi, Abreu, Pavano, Farsworth, Pettitte). They’ll have plenty to outbid the Red Sox.
Wonder if the O’s would consider Wang and Melky for Bedard…
Reflaxation- any deal for Santana would include a negotiation period for an extension. The Yankees would not trade away top players for a year rental.
I hope they hire Leo Mazzone as pitching coach.
My biggest concern if Mattingly is hired as manager is how would he handle a young pitching staff. Hiring Mazzone would at least be one way the address that.
Bernie also thinks he should still be playing, why would he concede that he is “finished” and take a coaching job?
Wang will be an outstanding no. 3 starter for the Yankees. Hughes will eventually be an outstanding no. 2 starter for the Yankees. Ian Kennedy will grow into an outstanding no. 4 starter for the Yankees. All the Yankees need to come up with (all?) is a no. 1 and a no. 5….there’s a chance no. 5 is Igawa, or Sanchez (maybe even flip Sanchez and Kennedy to nos. 4 and 5). But no. 1 will be the challenge, and there are no patsies waiting to send them Josh Beckett for very little in return….
How about forgetting the Santana trade and offering Wang and Melky to the Padres for Peavy. He is going to be a free agent after next year as well. We get to keep Kennedy and still get an young ace.
Minny isn’t stupid, and we all know what the asking price will be for Santana. A LOT.
Wang hasn’t shown anyone in baseball that he can be as successful away from NY, and especially on turf, so I can’t imagine that Minny is jumping at the proverbial bit to land Wang alone as the main component – and after this playoffs, it’s only worse for the NY side of the argument in negotiations.
I say keep Joba, keep Hughes, and any deal that involves anyone not them, make it.
If Minny accepted a deal that was of Melky, Wang, and Kennedy, then great. They’re stupid, but great for NY.
It’s too early to even think about this. LAA will most certainly be in the mix, and can put together as lucrative if not better, package than NY. Not to mention Boston, the Mets, Dodgers, Giants and others.
We’re most certainly not the front of the pack without Hughes or Joba in the mix. Not even close.
If Santana is on this team, it’s becuase Hughes or Chamberlain, or both, are in Minny.
Lets relax a bit. Santana would be nice, but no package the Yankees put together will get him without Hughes or Joba, or both, and that includes Wang and Melky. They’re not stupid, and they can get top pitching from other teams, so they won’t settle for less from NY. Especially with the situation NY is in.
It’s a huge decision, that frankly, I’m glad I’m not making.
Sorry for those who read this already, I was in the wrong thread.
when torre started in 96 he had a bunch of new players on the team, jeter, tino, gooden, raines, duncan, girardi and kenny rogers. while keeping Boggs, Bernie and Oniell. The only holdover from the coaching staff was Willie. I hope the 08 version is much like the 96 version. Keeping the key players and adding a bunch of new players so people dont state that its Torre’s team. By trading for santana and getting rowand will be a step in the right direction.
As for the santana for wang thing, this is how rob neyer sees it: “Wang’s going to get fairly expensive in a couple of years, but if he gets too expensive the Twins can just flip him in another deal. It seems to me that if the Twins made this deal and Francisco Liriano comes back fairly strong, the Twins begin next season as contenders.”
I hated for Torre to go, but now its time to move on and add key players.
As much as I hate to bring it up, I have concerns over NL pitchers moving to the AL. Other than Beckett, it’s never worked out well.
* Reflaxation- any deal for Santana would include a negotiation period for an extension. The Yankees would not trade away top players for a year rental.
That sounds great for the Yankees, but after the Meche and Lilly deals last winter, why would Santana want an extension? The pitcher’s market is in high demand right now, and the best pitcher in the game would make an absolute killing. I don’t see any reason for him to jump on negotiating with only one team, even if that team is the Yankees.
It makes NO sense to trade ANY of our prized prospects away for what is essentially only one year of guaranteed Santana. I agree with the consensus that he is the most dominant starter in the game today. However, under no circumstances would I trade all the productive years to come from the Yankees’ young guns for a net gain of one year from Santana. Just save the prospects, pay him with all the money coming off the books after 2008. Can you imagine having a rotation of Santana, Hughes, Wang, Chamberlain, and Kennedy to open up the new stadium? Not to mention the fact that Cano is going to be a feared middle of the lineup threat, Melky is bound to hit 20-25 homeruns and drive in about 110, not to mention the canon in center which saves numerous runs with either put outs or teams just refusing to run on him. Absolutely no sense to trade anyone and I think Cash is not dumb enough to do it.
thruman you forgot joba in that situation.
* As much as I hate to bring it up, I have concerns over NL pitchers moving to the AL. Other than Beckett, it’s never worked out well.
True, but Peavy’s numbers are insane, and even in decline would still be great.
I have the same issue with that as I have with the Santana deal, though.
Also, Minny isn’t going to pay that handsome arbitration figure for a guy who won 19 games two years in a row when they don’t have to, and Wang isn’t going to sign an extension with them for nothing. They can get guys that aren’t going to cost anything at all for another few years from elsewhere.
Also, and I hate to be the realist here, Joba has yet to throw a single pitch as a starter, and we already having him being a playoff difference maker and leader of the pack. Let’s relax a bit on the expectaions. If they can move Joba or Hughes (not both) for Santana, they should do it immediately. Do not hesitate, just do it.
It’s not going to happen though, and mostly because it would fly in the face of everything the Yankees have been selling for the past year and a half. The whole “we’re keeping out own talent” line would go right out the window immediately.
This deal will not get done with Wang and Melky and prospects. It’s not enough, and it’s certainly not more than others will offer.
edit: “our own talent”…
_That sounds great for the Yankees, but after the Meche and Lilly deals last winter, why would Santana want an extension? The pitcher’s market is in high demand right now, and the best pitcher in the game would make an absolute killing. I don’t see any reason for him to jump on negotiating with only one team, even if that team is the Yankees._
Normally, I’d agree with that, but this is the Yankees. They’re not going to low ball Santana. More than likely, he’ll still get a big fat deal in the process, and given that the Yankees would dump money on him anyway in free agency, why not dump it on him a year earlier?
Like I said before, it’ll probably take including Cano into the deal and that would more than likely be the deal breaker.
Um, Peter, O’Neill himself said he wanted to be on Girardi’s staff in an interview with Michael Kay.
Don’t make definitive statements about things about which you don’t have definitive facts.
The one thing Pete may overlook here is while Wang may have different numbers on turf, I have to point out that another point Pete makes a lot is that Wang is also a two time 19 game winner and finished second in CY-Young voting last year. So while it may not be a match made in heaven, like our old skipper used to say, it’s still nothing to sneeze at.
“Chases fly balls like Dora the Explorer” ….That’s a Classic Pete, you should try out for Last Comic Standing
Santana taking a deal before his free agency is just stupid. If A-Rod opts out, and get what he wants, you can be damn sure Johan is going to the market. He won’t sign for less that he’s going to get paid.
We’re wishful thinking here, just like the last three winters.
Thurman:
First, the Red Sox didn’t give up “nothing” for Josh Beckett. As a matter of fact, the Red Sox gave up who is, right now, the best offensive shortstop in the NL East (yes, even better than Rollins and Reyes).
Second, Hughes has the ceiling of a potential ace, as does Joba Chamberlain. If either (or, best case scenario, both) ever reach that ceiling–and I will not comment on the likelihood or unlikelihood of that phenomena–the Yankees will have a 1-1A punch to rival Cleveland’s (Sabathia-Carmona) and *potentially* Boston’s (Beckett-Matsuzaka).
The true strength of Yankee pitching will be the depth of the rotation: Hughes-Chamberlain-Wang could be very powerful, potentially more powerful than Santana-(whoever is left of Hughes/Chamberlain, since one of them would be necessary for a Santana deal).
Remember, the Yankees would not be the only ones competing for Santana’s services, and rumors have it that other teams *will* be willing to part with top prospects. If that’s an option for the Twins, then they are not going to accept a package of Wang-Cabrera-high-ceiling, low level prospect (Tabata and Jackson come to mind, though they’re not exactly low level). The Twins aren’t desperate for pitching, either, which is why the Yankees don’t match up with the Twins particularly well as a trading partner (though the Twins could always spin off extra arms in another deal).
…I don’t really have a point to make here, so I’ll just leave it at those observations.
People who argue that guys like Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy dont have any experience, that you cant pencil them in yet as dominant starters are completely correct. You can’t, there are no certainties. Who knows, maybe Santana comes to NY and bombs or is injured all the time. What I am saying, is why not hold on to the prospects, see how they do in the rotation this year and then make a decision? Santana is going to be on the market at the end of next season. Minny cant pay him what he deserves/commands and the Yankees will offer him more then anyone. I’d hold on the prospects just because of what we have already seen from them and the high probability of what is likely to come from them in the future.
Wow, the Orioles let Mazzone go? Doesn’t sound very bright. That is who I’d go after as pitching coach. Throw Eiland out to the bullpen.
But check out Peavy’s Post Season numbers. If, again, the assumption is that the Yankees continue to be about the post season, they already have “Peavy’s” on the staff.
Year Round Tm Opp WLser G GS ERA W L SV CG IP H ER BB SO
+——+—–+—+—+—–+—+—+——+–+–+–+–+—–+—+—+—+—+
2005 NLDS SDP STL L 1 1 16.62 0 1 0 0 4.1 8 8 3 3
2006 NLDS SDP STL L 1 1 8.44 0 1 0 0 5.1 11 5 1 2
+——+—–+—+—+—–+—+—+——+–+–+–+–+—–+—+—+—+—+
2 Lg Div Series 0-2 2 2 12.10 0 2 0 0 9.2 19 13 4 5
Keep the young players, particularly the pitchers. Hughes, Kennedy and Jaba all have huge upsides. I’d rather get a Leo Mazzone as pitching coach, and focus on shoring up the bullpen. That should be the focus not front line picthers or position players like Melky. Keep Cashman focused on retooling on the fly but do it with the bullpen.
We need either to get Krazy Kyle better- he showed some signs late this season- or trade him and eat some of his contract. And for goodness sake , can we please get a lefty arm in the pen? The Mets somehow figured out how to win – in 2006- with an okay starting staff but a truly rock solid bullpen. Lets get to school on that!
And against Colorado in the playoff game – does pressure get to him?
6.1 IP
10 Hits
6 runs
6 ER
4 Walks
2 HR…
it’s still nothing to sneeze at
yes, it is. Minny wants nothing to do with a groundball machine, on turf, who’s ERA is considerably worse when he’s not in the Bronx, and has gotten about 8 runs of support with and All-Star infield over the past three years. Wang has hurt his value a ton.
A lot of Mazzone’s philosophy seems to go against a lof what Nardi Contreras pushes, especially with the throwing as much as possible routine he works from, whereas Eiland is just an extension of what is now seemingly an organizational program.
It’s fine if they go Mazzone, but that definitely means bigger changes than it would seem to be on the surface.
Since we’re in the land of what if’s here, what’s more disheartening?
Losing Wang, Melky, Hughes/Kennedy, and prospect for Santana
(Santana, Pettite, Joba, Kennedy/Hughes, Mussina)
or a Boston giving up Crisp, Lowrie/Masterson/Bowden, Matzusaka to get Santana
(Santana, Beckett, Buchholz, Schilling/Lester, Wakefield)
You guy`s just don`t get it. SANTANA is not a good trade fit with the Bombers, he lost to the Tribe 5 times in 07, that`s an ace or an ASS?
“the Yankees will have a 1-1A punch to rival Cleveland’s (Sabathia-Carmona) and potentially Boston’s (Beckett-Matsuzaka).”
Matsuzaka is not an ace.
Pepper, do a quick research of games against the AL in the past two years for Peavy, and you’ll change your mind. He’s gotten pounded pretty good.
He’s Josh Beckett without the big breaking ball, and he survives in that huge park, against inferior hitters (for the most part) and virtually goes unnoticed.
I’d take Santana. Plus, they have said publicly that there is no way they trade him.
Like the Yanks with Hughes or Joba, the Red Sox will not get Santana unless Bucholtz is involved in that deal.
No way MIN wants Matsuzaka. Too much money for their taste.
You all are putting a lot of faith in a rotation that includes Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy.
I like em all just fine, but I don’t expect huge production out of any of them in their first full season in the majors. I’d anticipate no more than 12 win each and that is being optimistic.
Veteran presence in the rotation is a must. Breaking the bank for Santana makes absolutely no sense unless he is open to a contract extension. And even then, breaking the bank is a suspicious move.
Talk about small sample sizes… I can do you one better
between 2004-2007 he started 4 games against Boston:
1-1 with a 24 IP, 7 ER, 6 BB, 23 SO, 2.63 ERA – can we get him now?
Pepper Brooks,
That’s too small a sample size. Peavy and Santana are two of the elite pitchers in the game. Not performing in a few innings in October does not change that.
Veteran presence is not as important as actual talent. The Tigers’ run in 2006 was largely due to young arms, and they may have given the Yankees a better run for their money in 2007 if they hadn’t lost Liriano.
(Not saying Wang’s better than Santana. Obviously Santana has both. But veteran experience is overrated.)
minnesota is currently buiding an outdoor stadium, complete with natural grass. i think it is slated for a 2010 opening.
that MIGHT make wang more appealing to minnesota.
maybe.
but the yankees would still need to give up a ton more to get santana.
_That’s too small a sample size. Peavy and Santana are two of the elite pitchers in the game. Not performing in a few innings in October does not change that._
Well, Wang is not in the same category with those guys, but Yankee fans sure want to hang him for his performance against the Tribe.
Not saying that it is right, but it’s the reality with all the over reactionary chants to go get Santana now.
It all comes down to being able to handle the NY pressure. None of the other big manes we brought in could. Johnson, Vasquez,etc….I’m not saying that these guys are Santana’s level, they aren’t even close, well, Johnson was at one time, but still. If Santana can’t handle it he will be just another overpriced Yankees player.
people. stop kidding yourself. Santana is the best pitcher in the majors. There is nobody better than him, if the opp presents itself, we should get him.
But the Tigers had Bonderman and Kenny Rogers, both of whom were legitimately experienced. Granted, Bonderman is young, but Rogers is an old-timer (foreign substance or not).
Simply put, I am very leery of a rotation that includes three first-full-year pitchers, wang, and god knows who else (moose is done if you ask me and pending pettitte’s decision, I don’t know who fills this fifth slot). If we get pettitte, then the three first-years is less concerning.
Isn’t anyone concerned about the number of innings we can count on from these guys? Hughes and Chamberlain are NOT ready for 200 innings. Kennedy, same thing and he has the least amount of MLB experience of any of them, not to mention a bulky back already (though he may have been playing hurt to make his wedding…weak).
Giuseppe Franco,
Personally, I dislike Wang because of the type of pitcher he is and not his playoff performance. A groundball pitcher that has no out pitch and can’t strike people out will never be elite and will always be inconsistent. I’m sure most baseball executives know this, so I doubt his value is very high.
NY pressure
Javi Vazquez pitched like he always pitched, Randy Johnson pitched like he was his age. Kenny Rogers pitched like he always pitches. Dont confuse NY pressure with over hype from the media and the fans.
“It all comes down to being able to handle the NY pressure.”
This myth is one of the more ridiculous things. Vazquez let up a lot of home runs before and after being a Yankee. Johnson had a bad back before and after being a Yankee.
These guys had issues and flaws in their game, and that’s why they failed in NY. The NY pressure had little to do with it.
Pete
Will you be covering Joe Torre’s dinner? A spurned Torre, honoring a spurned Bernie Williams, surrounded by many former and current Yankees and Springstein performing. An evening to be remembered for sure.
_You guy`s just don`t get it. SANTANA is not a good trade fit with the Bombers, he lost to the Tribe 5 times in 07, that`s an ace or an ASS?_
Bob- how about looking beyond the W-L column shall we?
let’s review those 5 losses (and 1 no-decision) to Cleveland
Apr 24, L 5-3, 7 IP, 6 H, 4 ER, 1 HR, 1 BB, 7 SO
May 11, L 2-0, 7 IP, 4 H, 2 ER, 2 HR, 1 BB, 11 SO
Jul 28, W (No Decision) 3-2, 7 IP, 4 H, 2 Er, 1 HR, 1 BB, 12 SO
Aug 3, L 5-2, 6 IP, 5 R, 3 ER, 1 HR, 2 BB, 8 SO
Aug 29, L 4-3, 6 IP, 10H, 4ER, 2 HR, 1 BB, 2 SO
Sept 3, L 5-0, 6 IP, 6 H, 4ER, 1 HR, 3 BB, 3 SO
If he were a Yankee, he’d have won all 6 games.
B – may be a small sample size but it is all that exists. You could argue that it represents more than just numbers when you consider both games are against the Cardinals.
That said, they are just numbers and as proven before can be presented in any fashion to support or discount a players worth. This is no different than what Boras is going to do with A-Rod – comparing ARod’s overall post season to Reggie Jackson’s post seaons. Sample sizes the same – No. Compentition level the same – No. Valid argument – must be other media outlets have already published speculative articles on the subject.
Numbers don’t lie, but they can say whatever you want them to.
Here are Wang’s numbers including this year. So who is the better pitcher based on Post season – Peavy with 2 in a weaker NL or Wang with 3 against stronger hitting AL teams.
Year Round Tm Opp WLser G GS ERA W L SV CG IP H ER BB SO
+——+—–+—+—+—–+—+—+——+–+–+–+–+—–+—+—+—+—+
2005 ALDS NYY LAA L 1 1 1.35 0 1 0 0 6.2 6 1 0 1
2006 ALDS NYY DET L 1 1 4.05 1 0 0 0 6.2 8 3 1 4
2007 ALDS NYY CLE L 2 2 19.06 0 2 0 0 5.2 14 12 4 2
+——+—–+—+—+—–+—+—+——+–+–+–+–+—–+—+—+—+—+
3 Lg Div Series 0-3 4 4 7.58 1 3 0 0 19 28 16 5 7
+——————–+—–+—+—+——+–+–+–+–+—–+—+—+—+—+
Pete, some good sense here. That being said, Wang is very overvalued by most “baseball people” because of his wins total the last few years. He scares me, and always has, his peripherals are awful, yet he manages to perform as a top tier pitcher.
That being said, I think any of the young players, besides Hughes and Joba, should be available if Santana is available. Melky is expendable, we can get Hunter or Rowand. Cano, I would hesitate here, because it would be tough to replace his production. If A Rod stays, I would consider Cano in a package but if A Rod leaves, I would move Cano to 3B and not make him available. Finding a good 2B (relative to the league average at the position) is easier than finding a good 3B (especially with the Lowell – Red Sox love affair in Boston).
If Pettitte doesn’t return we will have 0 lefty starters. We need a shutdown starter, and Santana is the best pitcher in the world, down season or no. Melky, Wang, and Kennedy would be a no brainer and would be a solid deal for Minnesota as well, who can replace Hunter and can tell their fans they got an ace back in the deal as well.
Haha you are judging Peavy on 2 or 3 games. Can you shout out “small sample size” any louder than that?
Check out these numbers:
Jeff Weaver – career 4.03 postseason ERA in 38 innings
Johan Santana – career 3.97 postseason ERA in 34 innings
Jake Peavy – career 12.10 postseason ERA in 9.2 innings
Chien-Ming Wang – career 7.58 postseason ERA in 19 innings
So according to your logic, Jeff Weaver would probably be a great fit for the Yankees. He has similar postseason ERA to Santana, will be a heck of alot cheaper, and you don’t have to trade for him since he is a free agent. And let’s not forget that he has done well in 38 October innings. Let’s go sign Weaver now!!
Do you see how ridiculous it is to look at any of those 4 stat lines above and conclude anything meaningful from them? Small sample size!!!
_Personally, I dislike Wang because of the type of pitcher he is and not his playoff performance. A groundball pitcher that has no out pitch and can’t strike people out will never be elite and will always be inconsistent. I’m sure most baseball executives know this, so I doubt his value is very high._
I’m a lot more concerned about depth in the rotation than having a dominant “ace.”
It won’t do the team any good if they have a dominant guy at the top if the rest of the rotation sucks. The Yanks of yesteryear (’96 – 2001) didn’t have an “ace” compared to the likes of Randy Johnson, Schilling, Maddux of those times or like Beckett or Santana today.
What they had was a stable of very good pitchers like Pettitte, Wells, Clemens, El Duque, and Cone who took the ball night after night and the group as a whole provided more depth than any team in the league.
The Yanks can get back to those glory days. They don’t need Santana if they have arms taking the ball night after night and eating a lot of innings.
Most rotations can’t compete with that in October.
You shouldn’t bother looking at postseason stats to analyze any player’s value or true talent. The sample sizes just aren’t big enough. Look at their entire record, not just a few games in October.
B,
True, but being a Yankee, and being expected to win every start is pressure. Johnson was supposed to put us over the “hump” because the excuse in his last year in Arizona was he got no run support and with the Yanks he would get 20 runs a game. Yeah, he had a bad back, but when he was healthy he was mediocre at best. It all started bad for him and he could not handle being analyzed for every little thing he did. Now, Vasquez I knew would be a bust.
Minnesota will not trade Santana for this reason:
Whatever team trades for him will want to extend him for the minimum three top M.L.B.-ready players it will cost to get him and he will not accept that. Santana wants to determine his own destiny and get the max years and money N.B.A.-style he will get as he’s a two-time Cy Young Award winner with the talent to win 2-4 more C.Y.A.s and possibly three if he’s good enough next year. He could be a three-time C.Y.A. winner thus a first ballot Hall Of Famer before he hits the free agent market. Why would he let himself be used to replenish Minnesota? I could see him being pissed at being used like that after all he’s done for them cuz you take him away from the equation there and they’re garbage. He can’t veto a trade as he isn’t a 10-and-5 guy yet, but he can simply refuse an extension and refuse to re-sign to whoever he’s traded to so no one will touch him. NO WAY is he being traded in season in a walk year, he would never risk having to adjusting to a new team, possibly a new league of mostly unfamiliar hitters etc. He wants to go to wherever only to uproot his family again for 2009 on? Even if he doesn’t have a wife w/ or w/o kids, he might want his next team to be where he hangs his hat for the rest of his career.
Oh yeah, maybe he wants Minnesota to pony up the year and money he deserves for all the years and hope he gave them. One could argue HE got them the new stadium.
The Yanks should simply go for Santana when he becomes a free agent. I’d offer 8 years @ $20M/yr. = $160M because he will turn 30 on 3/13/09 thus be under contract through age 37+. Minnesota should offer at least this if not more for what he’s done for them. I think he’ll ask for 8 years because Mike Freakin’ Hampton was a lefthanded starter who got 8 years from Colorado, and Santana isn’t Hampton, moreover vice versa. If Santana made $20M/yr., he would cost only $4M > 2007 or 2008 Pettitte. Assuming Pettitte retires after 2008 for $16M cleared and the Yanks let go of Mussina after 2008 for another $11M cleared with Farnsworth definitely being let go after 2008 for yet another $5.75M cleared, the Yanks have a $32.75M coupon to use to sign Santana. That cleared salary pays for 2009 Santana and $12.75M of his $20M for 2010 (again, assuming $20M/yr.) Add to this Hughes, Chamberlain, Wang, and hopefully Kennedy all making less than $1M each in ‘09 (everyone save Wang
Pepper, you dont get it? If peavy could pitch 30 games in the postseason, more than likely that his numbers will reflect his overall numbers. Same thing with Arod, if you look at his postseason numbers, they look pretty much the same with his regular season number. Same thing with derek jeter, those people who play alot of games in the post season, after a while their numbers will look the same to their regular season numbers. Just because Foxs and ESPN put up a stat on what Arod did in his last 12 ABs in the post season, it doesnt tell the whole story.
If I’m the Twins, I want a real outfield prospect and not a fringy everyday player like Melky.
maybe this was said already, i just scrolled down to the bottom, but not for nothing, Ian Kennedy was the minor leaue pitcher of the year this past season; of course, at face value, he does not have the stuff Joba possesses, but he still has the qualities to be a front of the rotation type starter.
and this just says more about the talent the Yankees have in their system that the Twins would have to “settle” on Ian Kennedy…
what it’ll come down to is whether or not the Twins have to move Johan before knowing they’ll lose him for good. If they cant agree to an extention, they have to move him, and there are very few teams who have the package of players that it will take to get him, plus be able to give him the money he’ll command to extend his deal. The Yankees are certainly on that short list, prob with the Saux, Dodgers, and Angels… and we dont know how motivated any of those teams will be to move prospects to get him.
I think a lot of you are discounting how good Wang actually is.
2006 ERA+124
2007 ERA+121
I have to think that’s more than enough to start the conversation with Minnesota. Now I don’t trade Wang/Melky/Hughes or Kennedy
But I would definitely trade Wang/Melky/Kennedy or Horne or Tabata or whoever else.
Having said all that, I don’t want the Yankees to go after Rowand. He had a career year last year and I can’t believe it’s repeatable.
I think a lot of you are discounting how good Wang actually is.
2006 ERA+124
2007 ERA+121
I have to think that’s more than enough to start the conversation with Minnesota. Now I don’t trade Wang/Melky/Hughes or Joba
But I would definitely trade Wang/Melky/Kennedy or Horne or Tabata or whoever else.
Having said all that, I don’t want the Yankees to go after Rowand. He had a career year last year and I can’t believe it’s repeatable.
Pepper Brooks,
I have concluded that you are an idiot. This belief is based on a handful of posts you have made on a Yankees blog. Good day.
So if the Yankees offer him a 8 year $175 mil extension, he wouldn’t sign…? That makes no sense.
The Yankees won’t trade for Santana unless there is a contract extension with him in place.
The concept of them trading three good players for him for a one year rental is not going to happen.
If they trade for him, he will be a Yankee for more than one year.
I dare say if anybody trades for him, it will be under the same terms.
Size Does Matter
October 23rd, 2007 at 2:54 pm
Haha you are judging Peavy on 2 or 3 games. Can you shout out “small sample size� any louder than that
Exactly the point of what was said. How do you make the case that Peavy is better than Wang or Wang is better than Peavy based on those numbers?
How does the small sample of Wang’s performances on turf mean he would be bad for Minnesota?
and i love how people downplay Melky as a 4th OF on a good team… Wasnt he an everyday OF for the Yankees the past season plus? Arent the Yankees a pretty good team?
Melky may not be a superstar, but he’s a solid everyday player who is plus defensively, and as he develops, can be a useful offensive switch hitter, with speed and a little pop in his bat.
I agree about Rowand, Hunter as well though. If we move Melky I would try to sign Rowand for 3 years 40 mil…over pay him on a per year basis and hope he doesn’t opt for a longer contract elsewhere. Torii Hunter is in the 85-90 mil range for 6 years, I would not want the Yanks to do that.
How about forgetting the Santana trade and offering Wang and Melky to the Padres for Peavy. He is going to be a free agent after next year as well. We get to keep Kennedy and still get an young ace.
————————————————————
Peavy isn’t a free agent til after the 2009 season.
I would like to see Gil Patterson get some consideration for pitching coach. Please no Mazzone, I would go crazy watching him with that nervous rocking.
If I were the Twins, I’d take Wang, Melky, Kennedy and quickly flip Wang for more prospects to a team that plays on grass.
There’s such a dearth of top starting pitching in the league, Wang would bring back some great pieces for a team looking for a top of the rotation starter.
You don’t think the Mets for instance wouldn’t give up Milledge and Pelfrey/Humber for Wang? I definitely do.
Trading Johan for Melky, Kennedy, Milledge and Pelfrey/Hughes would be a coup for Minnesota.
Don’t discount Wang being an attractive piece for them.
When people say that we should just wait and get Santana as an FA, what are they proposing for our staff next year? Our team leadership essentially fired Torre because we could not get out of the first round of the playoffs — what kind of rotation are we going to put out there in 2008 that is going to give us a chance to win it all? I seriously doubt they are going to rely solely on Wang, Pettitte (if he returns), an aging Moose and a bunch of kids who have yet to throw 200 innings in a professional season….
What about Nardi Contreras as pitching coach and Dave Eiland as bullpen coach?
raymagnetic,
ERA (and therefore ERA+) does not tell the whole story. It correlates less to future ERA than a player’s peripheral stats, which are more important for predicting future success.
Before either of those guys, I would offer Andruw Jones a 1 year deal for $20 million. Boras might jump at the opportunity for Andruw to prove last year was a fluke and then hit free agency again. By then, Tabata might be ready or we could resign Jones or look elsewhere.
What makes Santana’s ceiling so high is the fact that he’s one of only a few premier lefthanded starters in the game. Only Sabathia, Bedard, Kazmir, and to a lesser degree Beuhrle are enough to turn heads at least in the AL.
The Yankees have done a superb job in developing young pitching talent but no lefthanders are there in the near future.
B,
Wang’s performance has defied logic for years. His peripherals have never been good and yet he has still been a very good pitcher. No reason to think he will suddenly fall off, he’s still young.
Bob from NJ
October 23rd, 2007 at 3:01 pm
Pepper Brooks,
I have concluded that you are an idiot. This belief is based on a handful of posts you have made on a Yankees blog. Good day.
Good to know. I was beginning to think that I was the only one who thought I was an idiot posting senseless dribble on such a serious topic as baseball.
But with affirmation like that, I can now go on just reading all the lucid, well thought, and thorough posts that populate this blog.
You are now officially my hero!
B,
What do you consider to be peripheral stats?
With Wang, Pettitte and Moose in the rotation, the other three can be rotated to prevent them from overworking themselves.
In the event of a real emergency and one of the regulars gets injured, the team could suevive with two weeks of Kei Igawa/Jeff Karstens.
Peavy is and always will be a better pitcher than Wang. Just look at their lifetime numbers. There is little to no debate about that
a) Santana’s market value is probably 7 years @ 22-23 million. I would not give a 7 year deal to *any* pitcher over 25, even the best in the world. What would have been the return on investment on such a contract given to Pedro Martinez when he was on top of the world at age 28 (i.e. after 2000 season)?
b) Torii Hunter??? Another long-term contract for a 32-year old center fielder? Especially one who has been running on turf for 10 years? No thanks. Rowand is the only option out there who can possibly replace Melky.
* Before either of those guys, I would offer Andruw Jones a 1 year deal for $20 million. Boras might jump at the opportunity for Andruw to prove last year was a fluke and then hit free agency again. By then, Tabata might be ready or we could resign Jones or look elsewhere.
No.
B- I understand all of that, but ERA+ is a better indication of how good a pitcher actually is. The one stat most statisticians paid attention to with Wang was his strikeout rate which he improved dramatically this year. I have to think with a better defense behind him Wang’s hits per 9 would go down as well.
IE. – If he had at least a league average shortstop behind him.
Well Bedard i don’t know if he would be a good swap for melky etc. He is a good picture but he has been injury prone. What about Brandon Webb…hes a free agent after the ‘09 season, why not bring him in after 1 year in the new stadium. If not other #1 starters I like include, Dan Haren (after 2009), Sabathia (after 2009, iffy post season though)
heres a cool website I found with free-agent everything and rankings. predictoin: A-rod signs with Giants
http://www.mlb4u.com/topfa07.php
In Taiwan, We won’t see Wanger to Twins!!
It’s not a good deal.
We like he as a member of Yankees.
Pepper, my point is that nobody should make any conclusions based on those numbers because they are from a very small sample size. Several people have echoed this idea, but you still fail to grasp it.
Peavy’s peripheral numbers suggest that he will be better than Wang over the next several seasons. Peavy has dominant K numbers, a much better WHIP, a better K:BB ratio. Wang is better at keeping the ball in the ballpark, although Peavy was great at that this year as well.
And this stuff about Peavy’s homepark helping him out so much this year is nonsense, since his home/road splits are about equal for 2007.
Just another name to throw out for manager here…Joey Cora I believe he is the 3rd base coach for the W. Sox…if im wrong please tell me
K/9, HR/9, BB/9 are the 3 main peripheral stats for pitchers.
Marc,
How do you know the Yankees don’t plan to go after both Peavy and Santana, one via trade, one via free agency. Imagine that.
Pepper Brooks – rock on, nice zing
SJ44 :
Which makes signing Santana as a free agent all the more sense. After 2008, Giambi, Mussina, and Farnsworth money come off the books. While it’s true that A-Rod, Mo, and Jorge will account for that and more, 2009 sees the end of the Damon and Matsui contracts which will be used to lock in Cano, Wang, and Melky. The added revenue stream of the new Stadium lurks in the background as a difference maker.
No way they hire Cora….
“Good to know. I was beginning to think that I was the only one who thought I was an idiot posting senseless dribble on such a serious topic as baseball.
But with affirmation like that, I can now go on just reading all the lucid, well thought, and thorough posts that populate this blog.
You are now officially my hero!”
I was pointing out the absurdity of making judgments on small samples of data. You took the bait and missed the joke.
wang is a question mark to me right now. i’d like to see him go back to throwing the sinker most of the time. i don’t see him succeeding throwing as high a percentage of sliders and breaking balls as he did the last 6 weeks of the year.
this is a philosophical issue that the new pitching coach is going to have to decide. guidry did try to change wang by having him throw throw a lot of sliders . i think that was a mistake because he seemed like he lost the sink on his sinker.
other teams must know this too. i think wang needs to stay with the yankees and prove himself in spring training and the early season that he is the same pitcher who won 38 games in two years. if he does that, why trade him?
Yeah I thought Bob’s joke was quite clever!
ha! I liked it too bob. Good point
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
“Back then, SI.com has learned, the Yankees and Torre were talking about a *one-year* *$4.5 million extension* with Steve Swindal, the son-in-law who signed Torre to his lucrative $6.4 million-a-year deal, and Torre was receptive to the offer. But that extension fell apart after Swindal was arrested for a DWI on Valentine’s Day and Swindal’s marriage to George Steinbrenner’s daughter, Jennifer, subsequently disintegrated. The Yankees hierarchy decided it would be best to let all four of its major stars (including A-Rod, Mariano Rivera and Jorge Posada) play out the season under their current deals.
At the time, according to people familiar with those talks, *Torre told his bosses that it was his great goal to be able to close out the old Yankee Stadium*.”
well who cares if they don’t hire cora i was just throwing his name out there, but we need a manager with a voice and that isn’t afraid to talk to the media and pump up the players.
“Torre suggested at his news conference that he felt general manager Brian Cashman was his “one ally” in the room, yet did nothing to quash the misguided notion, advanced by Torre’s supporters, that club president Randy Levine was the force behind his ouster. (”I don’t deal with Randy Levine,” Torre said, coolly, when asked about the club prez.) But in reality, as Cashman pointed out, Levine not only endorsed this extension offer but also voted to keep Torre in May when outsiders were calling for his scalp after a slow start. So Levine actually was 2-for-2 this year in voting to keep the Torre regime going.”
Mazzone as pitching coach and Eiland as the bullpen coach would do wonders along with Girardi as the manager.
I wouldn’t trade for Santana. I’d much rather have a rotation of Pettite, Wang, Hughes, Joba, and IPK than Santana, Pettite, Hughes, Joba, and Mussina, especially if that means Damon is in CF and Matsui in LF. The Yankees won’t promote Gardener yet. They’ll probably promote Justian Christian before Gardener if they need an outfielder. I’m not feelin’ Rowand anymore. All he did was put up contract year numbers and that’s about it. I’d rather trade for somebody like Josh Hamilton or somebody else.
If the Yankees were able to acquire Johan Santana, and include Wang and Cabrera as part of the package, they probably jump at it. The third piece, if it’s required, would probably come from the stable of secondary pitching prospects, not named Hughes, Kennedy or Horne. And well the Yankees should jump on that offer.
They have the one commodity that most teams don’t, that is, the great equalizer, to replace missing parts – cash. They can buy a CF with more production than Melky (his upside is not projected much higher than where his is currently).
However, I have always maintained that the Dodgers were the best match for the Twins. The Twins don’t need more SP. They need bats, particularly infielders. The Dodgers have an abundance of position players that would be appealing to the Twins.
Now, wouldn’t it be ironic if the Dodgers made that trade and Joe Torre came back to the Stadium as Dodgers’ manager with Johan as his Game 1 starter in the 2009 WS?
What a great game this is….LOL.
The problem is, Santana may not make free agency.
What if he is actively shopped this winter and the team that acquires him signs him?
Also, once he is a free agent, you have competition for his services.
If the Yankees can acquire him, signing him to an extension in the process, it takes him off the market.
Its why being proactive in this situation is worth exploring.
I’d rather trade for Granderson E-ROC
The new manager needs to do something that Torre didn’t have for several years and that is a long reliever that be also be used as an emergency or fill in starter. This is part and parcel why Torre relied so much on his bullpen if a starter got hit early and often which can happen to any team. A reliable No. 6 guy is worth his weight in gold based on how pitching staffs are used in recent years.
Some thought that Karstens could have been that guy this year but he failed in trials given to him.
It also makes no sense to me to trade Wang, who is our our relatively inexpensive and slightly younger 19-game winner for a very expensive 19-20 game winner. Sure, Santana’s considered one of the top 3 if not the top pitcher in the game, but what do you really gain? He’s better than Wang but he’s not going to make much difference in the end unless he’s on the same staff as Wang.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Pettitte isn’t going to stick around for more than his option year, even if he sticks around for that. I hope he does. If he’s not here I’d LOVE to see Wang, Santana, Hughes, Kennedy, Chamberlain in the same rotation for ‘09. If Pettitte is here, well I sure liked knowing Chamberlain was in the bullpen.
Size Does Matter.
I am not disgreeing with you or failing to grasp it. I get it.. got it before I posted it.. got it as I continued to post…get it now, and will get it tomorrow – even as King of the Idiots. But you all get so wrapped up emotionally in the decisions of the Yankees that you become offended by anyone posting who does not immediately give creedance to your opinion. Unless Brian Cashman is secretly posting on this site, that is all they are – opinions. Relax, have fun…
Blog = Opinions
Opinion = a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
Some people here like to “predict” who will be no.x pitcher (in fact, no.x is totally nonsensical) — for those of you who like to do the prediction/projection, I suggest you be hired as a special assistant to Cashman. (Try to introduce yourself to him) That will help our Yankees a lot.
Can you also predict how many wins Santana will get in New York and how many Wang will get if he is in Minnesota? That will help our Yankees make a right decision.
Bob from NJ
I was pointing out the absurdity of making judgments on small samples of data. You took the bait and missed the joke
Good to know. Duely noted.
Lost in everything is the work Cashman has to do AFTER the top task of getting the free agents signed and that is finding a way to rid the roster of the Giambi, Mussina, and Farnsworth contracts. None of the 3 seem to be a fit in next year’s team and carrying them and their limited and declining production amounts to having a virtual 22-man roster.
One danger with trading Wang is that he pitches very deep into games because he keeps his pitch count low. And the Yankee bullpen will probably be the weakest part of the team next year, so it is important to have starters that can give depth. Although maybe Santana also gives the same number of IP/start, I’m not sure how quickly he usually gets to that magic number of 100 pitches. Does anybody know the answer to that?
Brendon–The Tigers aren’t going to trade Granderson, not after the season he has had. Josh Hamilton is more available because the Reds are starving for pitching.
So in the begining of the season Joe was willing to make 4.5 million, but now he didn’t want to make 5. Makes Joe look worse. Why doesn’t he come out and say I didn’t want to manage many more instead of making the Yankees look like the big bad wolf.
Gee Peter – What’s with the angry tone? Part of the fun in winter is the what iffing – you’re being a smarty pants.
who is santana’s agent?
hmmm,
Very interesting reading at SI.com. It appears that Heyman got the “inside” story from someone in the Yankee hierarchy who wanted to get their side in the press.
But I don’t think it changes much. Torre still was “insulted” by the terms of the offer and that they would not negotiate. And Heyman was one of the first to back the Yankees in this saga, so this story helps his credibility as well. The offer in spring training did not have those clauses in it, which come across as an ultimatum: make the WS or you are gone. Joe said all along it was not the money. The $4.5MM offer proves him right.
Who do you want as manager: Donnie or Joe G. or Tony?
nate c.
October 23rd, 2007 at 3:45 pm
who is santana’s agent?
Peter Greenburg
If you read Joe’s comments, it wasn’t the money, it was the incentives part that he believed made him lose credibility – like he didn’t want to win it all and had to be coaxed into by the ownership throwing money at him like it was a carrot dangling on a string.
sunny615
No, what makes no sense is giving up half the farm for a guy you don’t have to give up any top farm system products for
then giving him an extension. It’s called the 2008 Yankees rotation of Pettitte/ Wang/ Chamberlain/ Hughes/ Mussina w/ Kennedy, Karstens, Clippard etc. as plenty of backup then a 2009 Yankees rotation of Santana/ Wang/ Chamberlain/ Hughes/ Kennedy with the 2-5 starters making
Than say you’ll take the 5 without the incentives.
The Dodger prospects are a lot of hype until they come up to the majors and perform like Melky, Wang, Kennedy have.
Dodgers are about as good at over hyping their prospects as the Yankees used to be. For once, it seems we’re not over hyping our kids.
That said, if the Minny GM has a brain he has to see the appeal in taking Wang, Melky and Kennedy and flipping Wang to another team who plays on grass (like the Dodgers) for instance.
In that scenario, he ends up getting a massive package for Johan who is a year away from free agency.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Cashman hasn’t started to try to put together some 3 way deals (like Theo boy genius loves to do) that would send Wang to another team and get Minny more prospects in the deal.
That said, Minny may want Wang. He’s a 19 game winner. He’s a name and he’s still cost effective. It takes some of the sting from trading Johan.
As for the guy above who said why trade Wang for Johan? Watch game 1 and game 4 of the 2007 ALDS for your reason. What good is a 19 game winner who can’t make 1 quality start in the post season and submarines your teams chances.
Wang is the main reason we lost the ALDS. Everyone knows this. Yes, our hitting failed, but Wang’s failures were disgraceful. He had NOTHING. He didn’t pitch 6 innings total in 2 games.
I’ve seen him get raked by the Red Sox in the regular season enough times to know that he is disposable and a good asset to sell high on right now.
If he helps us get Johan, then he has to go.
And don’t think for a minute that Theo isn’t sitting there plotting ways to put Johan in a rotation with Beckett.
I wouldn’t be shocked if they offered Buckholtz.
If we don’t trade for Johan, he will go to another team and they will sign him to a fat extension.
2009, I completely agree with your previous posts
_2009 Yankees Opening Day Starter And Ace: Johann Santana_
_October 23rd, 2007 at 3:50 pm_
_sunny615_
_No, what makes no sense is giving up half the farm for a guy you don’t have to give up any top farm system products for then giving him an extension. It’s called the 2008 Yankees rotation of Pettitte/ Wang/ Chamberlain/ Hughes/ Mussina w/ Kennedy, Karstens, Clippard etc. as plenty of backup then a 2009 Yankees rotation of Santana/ Wang/ Chamberlain/ Hughes/ Kennedy with the 2-5 starters making_
To this I respond:
SJ44
October 23rd, 2007 at 3:27 pm
The problem is, Santana may not make free agency.
What if he is actively shopped this winter and the team that acquires him signs him?
Also, once he is a free agent, you have competition for his services.
If the Yankees can acquire him, signing him to an extension in the process, it takes him off the market.
Its why being proactive in this situation is worth exploring.
“Very interesting reading at SI.com. It appears that Heyman got the “insideâ€? story from someone in the Yankee hierarchy who wanted to get their side in the press.”
oh, no question the story about the initial contract offer was leaked by the Yankee front office.
but the way this was portrayed in the media last week you’d think the yankees wrapped a dead fish in newspaper and handed it to Torre as his contract offer.
the fact is that he was already open to a 1 year deal at a reduced rate.
he didn’t like the lack of negotiation, and that is his right. and it probably should have been handled better.
but i am over the Torre-as-martyr storyline.
i would support Girardi.
I think if the Yankees had made a genuine offer and were willing to negotiate a little with Torre, then yeah, he would have taken the 5 mil… but it may have had to have been for 2 years a pop.
meaning $5 mil per for 2 years.
“I’ve seen him get raked by the Red Sox in the regular season enough times to know that he is disposable and a good asset to sell high on right now.”
holly smoke, people do have short memory… Wang’s last game in Yankee stadium against the red sox was 7 inning shutout.
“The Dodger prospects are a lot of hype until they come up to the majors and perform like Melky, Wang, Kennedy have. ”
Kennedy hasn’t done anything yet.
All you who want to trade Wang in a package for Santana:
WHO REPLACES WANG’S 19 WINS?
You want a 2008 Yankees rotation of Santana/ Chamberlain (zero M.L.B. starts)/Hughes (13 M.L.B. starts)/ Mussina (hasbeen)/ Kennedy (3 M.L.B. starts).
GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE!!!
If you throw Pettitte returning into the equation (Kennedy further develops in AAA unless the Yanks can trade Mussina which is doubtful), I still wouldn’t do it. Wang is making peanuts folks. ‘Say you get and extend Santana for minimum $20M/yr., no more Wang, Pettitte returns for $16M, WHERE’S THE MONEY FOR THE SOLID BULLPEN AROUND MO? Tied up in Santana and Pettitte (minimum $36M). The Yanks would have to scrimp on the pen. Chamberlain, Hughes, and Mussina are no locks to be good next year. Pettitte would be a year older (36) and he does have a history of injuries although he was 34 GS and 215 1/3 IP healthy next year. What if he’s bad?
2009 Yankees rotation:
Santana/Wang/Chamberlain/Hughes/Kennnedy
w/ Wang making say $700K + Chamberlain and Hughes $450K each ($900K combined) & Kennedy $400K = $2M!!!
Heyman is no shill for the Yankees. He has ripped them when they needed ripping and took up for them when needed. He has great sources.
I’m with Hmmm. Enough of the “Joe Torre is a martyr” nonsense.
He and the Yankees had a good marriage for a long time. In the last couple of years, it hit the skids for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which is Torre’s continued ineffectiveness in handling a pitching staff.
Now, its over. Could have it been handled better at the end? Sure. But, it wasn’t. I’m over it.
I am more interesting in the future than discussing the past. I have Yankeeographies and WS DVD’s if I want to relive the past. What matters to me now is the future.
Hard for me to feel sorry for somebody who made over 70 million bucks as Yankee manager.
We should all be so wronged in our lives.
as i said all year, jeff nelson, ramiro mendoza and mike stanton arent coming out of that bullpen, neither is Joe Torre. He is gone and its time to move on. It is what it is, if you dont like it, become a mets fan.
I’m in the minority, but I think Santana is being overrated. While he is a horse, he is not a dominant ace like Pedro was in his hey-day. And while he was very good this year, he wasn’t great. I think a package of Melky, IPK, and Wang is about right for him. I don’t think RIGHT NOW, that he is as good as Beckett.
Losing either Phil Hughes, Joba or heavens forbid both of them for Santana would be a drastic mistake, I believe.
Hmmm-
Thanks for the link to the Heyman article. Very, very interesting. It’s interesting how the article says that in prior contracts Joe himself requested “bonuses” for reaching certain achievements, but when the Yankees offered “incentives” worth much more for reaching the same achievements, Torre balked. Semantics, I guess.
I wonder if Bob Costas will have done his homework and ask Joe Torre about the information contained in this article in their interview tonight on HBO. It will be interesting to see if he does, and how Joe responds. But, in any event, it’s clear that there is always more to the story than meets the eye. And, this has certainly devolved into a he-said/they-said story. It’s become tiresome, I guess. And I had always been a Joe Torre supporter. Sigh.
Anyway, it is time to move forward, and I’m looking forward to hearing how Don Mattingly handles his Q-and-A session wiht the press later this evening.
Wang vs Sox:
2007
5 Games, 3-2, 30.2 IP, 33 H, 14 R, 14 ER, 2 HR, 15 BB, 15 SO, .275 Avg, 4.11 ERA
2004-2007
12 Games, 5-5, 71 IP, 82 H, 38R, 36 ER, 6 HR, 34 BB, 29 SO, 292 Avg, 4.56 ERA
2007 Games:
Apr 29, L 7-4, 6 IP, 6 H, 4 R, 4ER, 2 HR, 3 BB, 1 SO
May 21, W 6-2, 6.1 IP, 7 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 0 HR, 3 BB, 5 SO
June 1, W 7-2, 5.2 IP, 10 H, 3 R, 3 ER, 0 HR, 2 BB, 1 SO
Aug 30, W 5-0, 7 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 HR, 4 BB, 5 SO
Sept 13, L 10-1, 5.2 IP, 9 H, 5 R, 5 ER, 0 HR, 3 BB, 3 SO
nobody was as dominant as Pedro in his hey-day
Santana is a dominant ace. He wasn’t as great this year as he had been in previous seasons, and he also gave up alot of homers this year. But make no mistake about it, he is an ace. Many still regard him as the best starter in baseball. Saying that he is not a dominant ace is crazy.
Why all this mention of Karstens? Of all of the Yankees’ spot-starter experiments last year, Karstens was by far the worst (11.05 ERA, 2.45 WHIP, .706 SLG, .396 AVG, 5.52 BB/9). He had a few decent starts against powerless teams in 2006, but this year he exposed himself as, in Steve Goldman’s words, a “scary fly-ball guy.” A healthy Darrell Rasner, on the other hand, could be a legitimate swing-man. My only concern with him is the mysterious “80 pitch” label that the organization has placed on him. Rasner is out of options, so he will need to make a good impression in Spring Training.
Don’t forget that Beckett struggled mightily in 2006 with the BoSox. I’d take Santana over Beckett as my ace in 2008 if those were my two choices. Santana puts up amazing numbers veery single season. Even in a “down” year like this year he was still pretty damn good.
This is my third try at submitting this post, so if it shows up a couple of times, I apologize in advance.
Hmmm–
Thanks for the link to the Heyman story. I guess the difference between “incentives” and “bonuses” is who wants it put into the contract?
It will be interesting to see if Bob Costas has done his homework and asks Joe Torre about the information contained in this article during his interview with Torre tonight on HBO. It will also be interesting to see how Torre presents himself tonight. The whole thing has devolved into a he-said/they-said story, and frankly, it’s gotten tiresome. And I had always been a Torre supporter. Sigh.
Anyway, I am definitely ready to move forward. I am looking forward to hearing Mattingly’s Q-and-A with the press later this evening.
sunny615
2008 Yankees rotation:
Pettitte/ Wang/ Chamberlain/ Hughes/ Mussina
w/ Kennedy, Karstens, Clippard & maybe even Igawa & Humberto Sanchez as plenty of backup.
Plenty of talent to acquire a #4 starter, but Wang, Chamberlain, Hughes & Kennedy are untouchable (Pettitte’s not going anywhere thus is a nonissue). Everyone else including Mussina is up for grabs.
After 2008:
Pettitte retires, the Yanks clear $16M.
Mussina is let go, the Yanks clear $11M.
Farnsworth is let go, the Yanks clear $5.75M.
Total salary cleared/ coupon towards signing Santana: $32.75M.
Like I said in my previous post, 2009 Wang/ Chamberlain/ Hughes/ Kennedy make $2M combined (say $700K, $450K, $450K, and $400K respectively).
So what if the Yanks would have to compete for Santana’s services? Offer him 8 years (the best security any pitcher has or probably will ever receive) @ $20M/yr. (highest paid pitcher in M.L.B. no?) = $160M (record total amount). He’s worth it.
Bobcat – thanks. What’s that guy like? Any idea?
Wang will not be “making peanuts” next year. He joined the team in May 2005, so he will almost certainly be arbitration-eligible as a “super two.” That means 4.5-5 million (see Willis, Dontrelle).
SJ44,
I concur. Pride can sometimes be expensive, and there are huge egos involved all the way around.
But, like the game of baseball itself teaches us, forget the previous AB and move on to the next.
That said, I think the Yankees can package enough to get Santana without Wang, but it would involve a position player/prospect.
I’m thinking it takes one pitcher from the following lists, one position prospect from the following lists, plus Melky:
Tyler Clippard
Christian Garcia
Jeff Marquez
Brett Gardner
Jose Tabata
Alberto Gonzalez
“While he is a horse, he is not a dominant ace like Pedro was in his hey-day.”
is it really fair to hold someone to that standard?
Pedro in his prime was probably one of the 5 or so greatest pitchers of all time, maybe the best ever.
Here’s a piece from MLBtraderumors.com that refers to Greengerg’s other clients:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....ree_a.html
BTW, Pete is often quoted on this site…
Thurman, you do know that in a few years the yankees will have 2 aces even without Santana if Joba and Phil live up to their potential.
“I’m thinking it takes one pitcher from the following lists, one position prospect from the following lists, plus Melky:
Tyler Clippard
Christian Garcia
Jeff Marquez
Brett Gardner
Jose Tabata
Alberto Gonzalez”
Tabata has a lot of trade value and Marquez has some. Garcia may have a little.
but the rest of those guys have very little trade value.
Melky, Tabata, and Marquez would not get it done.
hmmm…
Are you on Levine’s payroll along with the guy from the NY Times trying to help him “spin” his way out of the mess he made? The way they handled Torre stank – they outsmarted themselves in Tampa and it backfired – nothing you write or quote will change that. Now they are making it worse by speaking out through mouthpieces in the papers and through “confidential” sources who owe them. They have shown very poor judgement and some of us have legitimate concerns about the future because of it. Those who feel this way won’t change our mind because of anything you say anymore than this or any other comment will change your mind so…everyone else here has moved on to discussing the future of the team. Why don’t you hang it up and do the same and I’ll drop the topic too. Deal?
No pitcher iw worth an 8-year deal. Not even Santana. He was not the best pitcher in baseball this year. I’m not saying he won’t be next year, but Beckett and Sabathia were both better.
2009 Yankees Opening Day Starter And Ace: Johann Santana,
Joba is going to be the 5th starter next year, the want to limit his innings and want to be able to skip him with off days.
expect the rotation to look like this in 2008 if we don’t get Santana:
Wang
Pettitte
Hughes
Kennedy- the yankees plan on him starting the year in the rotation as well
Joba
I guess the yankees are going to try and trade Moose.
The problem with dealing with the Twins, from a Yankees’ perspective, is that the strength of the Yankees’ farm system mirrors the Twins’ (RHP).
The Twins need bats, badly. They cannot replace bats on the open market. The Yankees can.
If I’m the Yankees, I move some of my position prospects to get Santana, and don’t look back.
For what it’s worth, my choice for manager is Mattingly along with Larry Bowa as either 3rd base coach or bench coach, Tony Pena as Bowa’s alternate and Dave Eiland as pitching coach.
Personality-wise, I think Mattingly will be a seamless fit.
There’s an issue with your future rotation for 2008. Neither Hughes nor Chamberlain surpassed 114 innings in 2007. And according to Yankee protocol, no prospect will superscede 30 additional innings in the following year – meaning neither Hughes nor Chamberlain will surpass 150 inning (including playoffs if we’re that lucky/good). Kennedy hit 165 this year and is on pace for 200 innings. Igawa blows monkey spit and Karstens is no better. Clippard has shown that he is also no better than a #6 and got hit hard after his debut once the MLB got used to his funky delivery. Sanchez is a big question mark and hasn’t pitched in a year and will probably be moved to the pen. The only untouchable in that group of Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy would be Chamberlain for me. Hughes has a higher ceiling than Kennedy, but I don’t make IPK untouchable – at least not for Johan Santana. Wang is a great pitcher and I love him to death, but he’s a ground ball pitcher with no plus secondary pitches/out pitch (as demonstrated in the ALDS). If his sinker isn’t working, he gets hit pretty hard.
I understand all the money coming off the books but you could argue that this money could be used to land Santana now and prevent a bidding war between the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Dodgers, Angels, and every other team that can afford a large contract… who would have thought Zito to the Giants??? It’s better to mitigate that risk now *IF* we have the opportunity.
I don’t know Bobcat, I don’t see the Twins touching anybody on that list for Santana. Its going to take more.
Garcia is coming off TJ Surgery and hasn’t thrown a pitch in a year. He’s also 3-4 years away from the majors. Too far out to interest the Twins.
If they are going prospect heavy to fill their OF spot, I have to think Austin Jackson (whom I would not trade) gets the nod over Brett Gardner. The Twins already have Jason Tyner, who is like Gardner.
Alan Horne would have to be on that list if they want a real good starting pitching prospect. I know scouts who like Horne as much as any pitcher in the Yankee system not named Joba Chamber;ain.
You have to think Melky be involved in any deal for Santana. After that, anybody’s guess but, its going to take more than “B” type guys.
Santana is strictly “A” level. Its going to take more to get him than it took to get Randy Johnson.
The fly in the ointment in dealing with Santana, is Barry Zito’s contract.
Santana starts at 110% of what Zito got ($126.0M for 7 years).
Santana 2007: WHIP 1.073 K 235 BB 52
Beckett 2007: WHIP 1.141 K 194 BB 40
CC 2007: WHIP 1.141 K 209 BB 37
They all had pretty good years, to say that Beckett and Sabathia were better is not true.
Why shouldn’t the Yankees get their end of the story out?
Why does it only have to be Joe Torre’s view that is taken as gospel?
I love how nobody wants to look at both sides of an issue because it upsets them.
There is obviously TWO sides to this story. If somebody only wants to hear/consider one side of it, they are being shortsided.
I have no problems with the Yankees getting out their side of it and let people make up their own minds.
On issues such as these, folks take a stance and nothing anybody says is going to change their minds.
If that’s Santana’s “off” year, I’ll take it.
I guess my point is, SJ44, it may be a matter of the number of bodies that the Twins can get as well. Any deal may have to include a pitcher, but it won’t be pitcher driven. The Yankees are going to have to reach a bit to compete with other teams’ when it comes to the prospects they can offer, and I think any position prospect should be on the table, save Austin Jackson. I certainly would not be inclined to include Jesus Montero or Juan Miranda, but it may take players of that ilk to get Santana.
Well, I think the comparisons to Pedro are apt because people seem to want to give up everything for Santana, and I just think you can’t give up the prospects you’ve worked so hard to bring along i.e Joba and Phil.
Santana may be the best pitcher but people act like he is so far ahead of any other pitcher that it would put the Yankees over the top. And he’s just not that much better, if at all, than Beckett, Sabathia, Carmona etc.
If the Twins ask for those two (Joba and Phil) for Santana and we give it to them, I think we are doomed.
We must get younger and while Santana is still in his prime, his best years could be behind him. There are a lot of innings already on that arm.
Wang vs Sox:
2007
5 Games, 3-2, 30.2 IP, 33 H, 14 R, 14 ER, 2 HR, 15 BB, 15 SO, .275 Avg, 4.11 ERA
2004-2007
12 Games, 5-5, 71 IP, 82 H, 38R, 36 ER, 6 HR, 34 BB, 29 SO, 292 Avg, 4.56 ERA
May 21, W 6-2, 6.1 IP, 7 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 0 HR, 3 BB, 5 SO
June 1, W 7-2, 5.2 IP, 10 H, 3 R, 3 ER, 0 HR, 2 BB, 1 SO
Aug 30, W 5-0, 7 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 HR, 4 BB, 5 SO
ok sunny, I see your point, but do you really can put any pitcher who has lights out numbers, during the 2007 season between Yanks X Sox? Tavares maybe, which’s really fun to mention
Both Hughes and Joba are untouchable right now, we all love Joba but reality is that Joba may not be as successful as the yankees hope and may end up back in the bullpen. There is not reason to think that Joba won’t be as sucessful in the majors as he was in the minors but theres still the chance. besides the yankees still view Hughes as their future ace, so hes not going anywhere.
“Hard for me to feel sorry for somebody who made over $70 million”
Is there a monetary cut off for empathy? $100,000, $1M, $10M? It never ceases to amaze me that so many people on here act as if the money the Yanks pay affects your ability to pay your bills or is part of your trust fund.
SJ
I think the issue is, and always will be, is that the public always sides with the individual over big brother. Regardless of what happened in the room, regardless of the yankees side of the story, most people, in my opinion, will side with the individual, especially with some iconic figure as Torre. IMO
In reality, who cares what happened. Its time to move on.
SJ44 –
I would just add that there are THREE sides to every story.
Off topic for a second, am I the only one tired of hearing that Japanese baseball is equal to M.L.B. Everytime I hear Valentine talk he wants to convince us that thier teams would compete and even best ours. Today on S.I. They have the same subject of how Hillman says that they are equal.
I can count in 2 fingers how many sucessful Japanese players made a big impact in the bigs. And dont tell me that they won the worlds. All of our players that we sent hadnt even gotten the rust off of the winter.
Its time for all the writers and inside M.L.B.baseball to call Japan what it is. A foriegn aaa affiliate which in turn is a crap shoot.
If Santana had the Yankee or Red Sox offense behind him, he easily would have won 20 games and the cy young in 2007.
He definitely got screwed out of the Cy Young the year Colon won it. Colon was the only 20 game winner in the AL. But Santana was absolutely amazing and the voters don’t realize that Wins is very much team dependent. Rivera also had a good case for the award that year. Either would have been a better choice than Colon. Ok, I’m done rambling about that.
Here is some clean family fun. Guess A-Rod’s Contract..
Predict A-Rod’s Contract
“J.C. Bradbury has a contest going over at his Sabernomics blog – the person who comes closest to guessing Alex Rodriguez’s next contract gets a signed copy of his book. Check it out.
A lot of good answers were already taken, so I guessed nine years, $305MM ($33.9MM per year).”
I think its more quality, rather than quanity, when it comes to a Santana deal.
Using the Texieira deal as a benchmark, the Braves gave up a ton to get him. Perhaps 2-3 of their 5 best prospects in their system for Tex. He’s not an ace, the rarest of commodities in today’s baseball. Its going to take a lot to get Santana.
Dave Dombrowski (Tigers GM) always says that to make a big deal, it has to “hurt a little bit” (meaning the players you give up) to acquire that big star. He admits, trading Humberto Sanchez and Kevin Whelan in the Sheffield deal last year made him “hurt” a bit. You have to give up talent to get talent.
I think Wang is an interesting piece to the puzzle. If the Twins deal Santana, they have to sell the deal to their fans.
Its easier to sell the deal if they can get a guy who has won 38 games the last two years and Melky to replace Hunter, along with a good young arm, than it would be to sell the deal with a bunch of prospects.
Even with Wang as arbitration eligible, adding Wang and Cabrera fills two needs (since they also lose Hunter) and they are still fiscally responsible.
Not saying they would bite at that offer. Just pointing out the positives of it from their perspective.
Who will have a better carreer barring injury? Joba,Ian or Phil?
Im going with the underdog. Kennedy
sunny615
Your point with listing Wang’s career and 2007 stats vs. Boston? Boston is one the above .500 teams the Yanks have to compete against. His career stats are so-so but not bad considering the Yanks usually beat up on the bad teams and play around.500 vs. above .500/ good teams and Boston has a monster offense. His 4.56 ERA is basically telling me he could post about 6 IP and 3 ER (4.50 ERA) vs. Boston every time out and I will take that any time! Yeah you’d like him to be 7-3 dominant not 5-5 so-so, but he turned a corner with only one bad start vs. Boston (his last one) and a 4.11 ERA no doubt inflated to that by the 5 ER in 5 2/3 IP he gave up in that last start.
Are you trying to say Boston owns Wang? If so, you did a pretty lousy job with giving me his 2007 stats esp. pitching lines 3-2 record and 4.11 ERA. Boston owns Mariano Rivera i.e. they’re the team he’s blown the most saves against, so by your logic, the Yanks should let him go. Randy Johnson owned the 2005 Red Sox (5-0) -where’d that get him in the 2005 postseason? Just stop with your trade Wang argument cuz you’ve lost.
Real simple:
You trade Wang in a package for Santana, it’s a wash. By swapping guys , you’re saying someone else will automatically replace Wang’s production -he better. Wang could go 17-9 with a 3.68 ERA in 200 IP for Minnesota in 2008 while Santana could go 20-7 with a 2.88 ERA in 230 IP for the Yanks in 2008. You traded Wang and the best farm system products/prospects for basically 3 more wins, 30 more IP, 2 less losses and 0.8 less points on an ERA when you simply could’ve waited until 2009 to have both post the same numbers for who knows how many years together with Chamberlain, Hughes, and Kennedy in the rotation for who knows how many years as well. If Chamberlain and Hughes advance past Wang, Wang would be the best #4 starter in baseball and one of the best #3 starters in baseball if just one of them (Chamberlain or Hughes) advanced past him.
“If the Twins ask for those two (Joba and Phil) for Santana and we give it to them, I think we are doomed.”
the Yankees are not going to do that. don’t worry.
I disagree with the idea that Santana is only marginally better than Carmona, Beckett, and Sabathia. Santana is arguably the best pitcher in baseball every single season. Carmona has had one good year and shouldn’t even be discussed as anywhere near Santana’s level. Beckett is usually good but usually not as good as he was this year, and he occasionally gets blister injuries. Sabathia has had a couple of dominant years in a row now but he hasn’t done it as long or as well as Santana has. I think there are far fewer question marks with what you can expect when it comes to Santana’s performance.
phil hughes
SJ44
There are 2 sides to every story.
The problem with the Yankees side was in the delivery.
Yankees management got a quick lesson that Joe Torre and Yankee players have learned long ago. The NY media isn’t always fair but they are swift.
S.o.S.27,
probally Hughes, Joba would be a close second though. Hughes has better stuff than Joba, except for the slider and even thats getting close. and Hughes at 21 is already a pitcher and not a thrower, its hard to find 21 years old that know how to pitch like Hughes does.
i said it before and I’ll say it again. A deal like that (Wang/prospects for Santana) means Cashman has lost his control of this team. The Boss gave him his year and now it may be back to depleting the farm and overpaying for veterans. Wang won more games than Santana too ugh! Santana is Wang only at a higher price(wins wise not stuff wise).
if you had santana over wang you are actually getting a pitcher that pitches more innings that the bullpen doesnt have to pitch. A person that strike out players that the defense doesnt have to worry about, a player that gets less base runners every inning that decreases the chance of somebody scoring a run, and a player that you know will give you a chance to win every day. And he is left handed!
ahahahahah JDnotDrew you obviously know nothing.
“hmmm…
Are you on Levine’s payroll along with the guy from the NY Times trying to help him “spinâ€? his way out of the mess he made?”
yes, i work for the Yankees and post on this blog in my spare time.
” Why don’t you hang it up and do the same and I’ll drop the topic too. Deal?”
fine. but Pete had about 10 negative posts about Torre. now that the other side of the story is coming out little by little, no one wants to talk about it? that’s fine, but a little unfair after the onslaught of negativity on this very blog all week.
Don’t fall victim to evaluating a pitcher’s performance based mostly on the Wins stat. Look at Santana’s numbers this year. Do you really think that he would not have won 20+ wins with the 1000 run offense behind him???
“…..Those who feel this way won’t change our mind because of anything you say anymore than this or any other comment will change your mind so…everyone else here has moved on to discussing the future of the team. Why don’t you hang it up and do the same and I’ll drop the topic too. Deal?…”
Nice try
Finally the media checks in with the inconvenient truth and you want to change the subject because it doesn’t jibe with your comfortable assumptions
The Heyman article advances the story with solid reporting and new information. Finally some freaking perspective and basic common sense from the media, instead of the overwrought nonsense of the first few days…. “insulting, low rent, disgusting, shameful, backstabbing, vile, and my favorite – ” the Yankees have blood on their hands”
What was truly “disgusting” was the way more than a few posters here came across like a crazed howling mob ready to string up Levine from the nearest tree.
Pat,
I don’t feel sorry for Torre because you can make a good argument that he should have been fired after last year.
He COMPLETELY blew that Tigers series with his work and batting Arod 8th was flat out dumb.
I also don’t buy the theory that he bears no responsibilities for losses and gets all the credit for wins. A little too teflon for my tastes.
Under that theory, you never change managers because its always on the players.
He got a contract extension AFTER blowing a 3-0 lead to the Red Sox in 2004. Not a lot of managers would have gotten that extension.
My point is, he wasn’t treated horribly by the Yankees throughout his tenure. Yes, the ending could have been better but, that’s the way the Yankees do business.
They ended things the same way with Showalter, giving Torre his opportunity. It didn’t seem to bother him when he took the job, nor it should it. That’s sports.
Bottom line, there comes a point where you just have to move on. Both sides (Torre and the Yankees) benefited from their relationship. It wasn’t one sided, as some suggest.
Joe Montana finished his career with the Chiefs. Emmitt Smith finished his career with the Cardinals. Players and coaches/managers all have endings and they are aren’t pretty.
Joe Torre is 67 years old. At some point, the Yankees are going to have to run their team without him in the dugout Now is that time.
Why make Minnesota better and/ or allow them to free up money to get better? Why risk improving them? Cleveland and Detroit aren’t ballbusters enough? Kansas City is getting better. The Chi-Sox could rebound although I think they’re on a downslide (who knows?)
Take Santana away from Minnesota with years and money they’ll never match or top and destroy them! I wouldn’t be happy if he didn’t go to the Yanks but went to an another A.L. team, obviously, but if he went to the N.L., great! No more Santana on Minnesota, a team in the Yanks’ league, and Minnesota is another easy pile of games along with K.C.
The peanuts Wang, Chamberlain, Hughes, and Kennedy make combined for the next few years (with more starters developing like Horne) will offset Santana’s high price. ‘Say Santana wanted $22M/yr. not $20M/yr. So what? That’s only $6M > 2007 or 2008 Pettitte and he’s just better than Pettitte, I pay the extra $6M/yr. for that better guy.
2009 Santana $22M + $450K Chamberlain = $22.45M in ‘09 salary between them and an average of only $12.225M/yr. each .
All this “Santana ‘what if’ trade stuff” has absolutely no point if the guy isn’t willing to talk about an extension with his pursuiter and I trully believe that Santana’s agent wouldn’t recomend it… Come on, the guy is about to make tons of money when he become a FA. why he would risk that on the behalf of Twins best interests? Doesn’t make any sense at all
Wang for Santana is a “wash” for the Yankees? Are you serious?
Let me put it to you another way. If Johan Santana was on the Yankees staff this year, they are STILL playing.
Please, don’t tell me Wang is at Santana’s level as a pitcher. He’s not.
Santana played on a team that couldn’t score this year. Put him on a team that scores 900+ runs, then get back to me.
When we start seeing “Wang and Santana are a wash” posts, you know the topic has jumped the shark for the day.
Whoops I meant an average of $11.225M/yr. each.
“The peanuts Wang, Chamberlain, Hughes, and Kennedy make combined for the next few years”
Wang will probably make $4-5M next year, $6-7M in 2009, and $9-10M in 2010.
not a ton, but not peanuts either.
“i said it before and I’ll say it again. A deal like that (Wang/prospects for Santana) means Cashman has lost his control of this team. ”
so trading for the best pitcher in baseball would mean cashman has lost control?
this is NOT the same as trading for Randy Johnson at 40. Santana is 28.
Can’t imagine why the Yankees would trade Wang for Santana either, quite frankly.
Apart from Chamberlain, there isn’t any other Yankee pitcher, I think they should guard more jealously.
Yes, yes, I acknowledge Wang performed poorly this year in the post-season and was mediocre in his start against Detroit in ‘06. Still, he pitched well in the Anaheim series in ‘05.
I attribute Wanger’s difficulties more to fatigue than anything else. It looked like Wang was overthrowing the sinker as a consequence of which it stayed up in the zone. In years after young pitchers exceed their previous season’s inning totals by 40 inning, they often suffer fatigue or injury. The Wanger is also still mastering his other repertoire of pitches.
Even still, the Wanger has proven himself, at the very least, a formidable #2 starter for the long-term.
Neither Kennedy nor Hughes have demonstrated as much. They might be as good or better. Then again, neither might be better than a 3rd or 4th starter. You can’t infer anything from IPK’s three September starts.
If the Yankees can obtain Santana with either Hughes or IPK as the centerpiece of a deal including lesser prospects, they should make that trade while Hughes and IPK’s capital remain high.
Santana is probably one of the two or three best pitcher in the game.
“Neither Kennedy nor Hughes have demonstrated as much. They might be as good or better. Then again, neither might be better than a 3rd or 4th starter. You can’t infer anything from IPK’s three September starts.”
Hughes demonstrated himself as the best pitching prospect in baseball last year. And until that injury in Texas, Yankee fans were putting him in the HOF.
I would say he’ll be a lot better than a 3rd or 4th starter.
“As much as I hate to bring it up, I have concerns over NL pitchers moving to the AL. Other than Beckett, it’s never worked out well.”
Pedro Martinez and even Fatso Schilling didn’t quite embarass themselves in the A.L., either.
The problem with Wang, on turf or on grass, may not entirely be his fault. It actually takes the defence behind him to adjust to the difference in the rolling speed of the ball.So if Wang goes Minny, I am sure it’s the Minny defence that has to figure a way out(and I am sure they can handle it) not Wang.
Hughes showed this year that hes going to be better that a 3 or a 4, at the least he’ll be a very good 2. Hughes is the number 1 pitching prospect in baseball, you don’t trade talent like that. and most importantly he showed that he can handle pitching in a elimination game in the postseason.
Christ, Peter, you’re a bona fide genius.
Your newspaper editor must be dumber than you if he lets you continue to collect a paycheck for this crap.
First of all this rumor is totalley false. Second the Yankees aren’t trading Melky/Cano,Wang and a young prospect for Johan Santanna.
1. Wang has the most wins than any other pitcher in 2 seasons. Just beacause he messed up big time in the playoffs doesn’t mean he is a bad pitcher. If wang learns to command his sinker everyday because sometimes it stays up and that’s when he gets beat he would be dominant.
2. The twins would want the pospect to be either Joba, Hughes or kennedy which would be ridiculous in the Yankees part.
3. Melky is a decent hitter and a excellent fielder. He provides energy from the Yankees in the outfield and the lineup.
4. Cano? Are you kidding me. This kid would end up hitting .300/ 25-30 HRS/ 95-100 RBIS. Not forgetting an excellent defense he plays. This would be stupid at the Yankees part.
Also a good website to find MLB rumors ishttp://www.mlbtraderumors.com check it out.
I can’t spell
By the way it’s http://www.mlbtraderumors.com