Today in The Journal News
-
- October
- 25
Tony Pena interviewed and now the Yankees will pick their next manager. A decision could come today.
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on Thursday, October 25th, 2007 at 4:21 am by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
A decision could come today? Or an announcement could come?
After Torre’s press conference ESPN examined The State of the Yankees (Posada, Mo, Arod, Andy, Rocket, the next manager) with preeminent baseball reporters, Buster Olney and our own Peter Abraham.
http://tinyurl.com/3xqhcn
Clip runs 5:23
ps GO Girardi !!
After Torre’s press conference ESPN examined The State of the Yankees (Posada, Mo, Arod, Andy, Rocket, the next manager) with preeminent baseball reporters, Buster Olney and our own Peter.
http://tinyurl.com/3xqhcn
Clip runs 5:23
If they decide today, would they announce it tonight or tomorrow?
Turns out Rudy became a Sox fan at age 10
http://tinyurl.com/2jfpwc
1954 Garden City South (Long Island) Little League photo. I imagine his idol was Ted Williams.
http://www.wcbs880.com/pages/1129153.php?
GlaD TO SEE THAT SOMEONE AGREES WITH ME….
I realize everyone’s moved on and all, but while we breathlessly await the announcement of the new skipper, it increasingly appears the previous one has a “credibility problem”.
From Today’s NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/25/sports/baseball/25chass.html?ref=sports
Nice.
Joey B –
And the plot thickens. That’s news about the “bonuses” for the wins totals. Again, I guess it’s a bonus if you ask for it, and an “incentive” if it’s “forced” upon you. Anyway, thanks for the link. Interesting reading.
Joeybaga…None of that is news…bonuses vs incentives. A deal made after season rather than before bound to be different regardless. Recycled dish and it’s Tampa using the media in the same way people are complaining that Torre is doing. That both sides have been a bit disingenuous defending their position is probably closer to the truth.
Pete – will we hear today do you think or is the official announcement still expected to be tomorrow?
The “official” announcement probably will not be made until tomorrow, but word will leak today is what I’m guessing. It sounds like the candidates interviewed with 100 different people and one of those people or others in the organization will leak it today.
Hank Steinbrenner, from Bill Madden’s column this morning:
“I know it’s different being a manager and a coach,” Hank Steinbrenner said by phone yesterday, “but I’m always reminded of that old saying, ‘Experience without knowledge is just experience.’ You look back in the annals of baseball and some very good, Hall-of-Fame-type managers were successful right off the bat. Leo Durocher won a pennant for the Dodgers in 1941 and Lou Boudreau won a world championship for the Indians in ‘48. It really comes down to, ‘Do you have leadership qualities?’”
It strikes me that with so much at stake, and with Torre’s steady hand lifted away, a lot of you in seeking out a Bad Guy are flailing blindly around like partygoers at a piñata. Peter and a lot of posters have tried to diminish the Steinbrenner sons with “Lil’ Stein,” and “Clowns” and “Laurel and Hardy,” etc. But the fact is that a comment as cogent and insightful, and reserved, as the one above would never have come from George. I know as Yankee fans we’re conditioned to internal strife and the shadow of a Dark Overlord. And for some reason we actually all grew to LIKE it like that; George gave us a baseball version of the Stockholm Syndrome.
But it doesn’t HAVE to be like that. It might take your blood pressure down a few points, but consider the possibility that we are at the dawn of a New Era that goes beyond the (positive, in my opinion) managerial change, in which the owner does things like 1) conducts a thorough interview process; 2) consults a team of experts other than Arthur Richman; 3) Uses the word “patience.”
I’m so juiced for 2008 I can’t stand it.
Joe Girardi, please!
Credibility problem? The NY Times needs to take a deep breath. Time for Journalism 101 and what constitutes “credibility problems.”
1. To my knowledge, Torre never said: “I’ve never had incentives in my contracts before.”
2. He also never said that incentives under any circumstances are insults.
3. He said regarding the contract offered to him for next year that he found those incentives insulting.
4. What was Joe’s prior position on incentives?
Did the NY Times report or even try to find out whether Torre tried to knock out the incentives from previous contracts during negotiations, and failed? No. That would have helped their case if indeed he had gladly, even greedily welcomed incentives, or even proposed them himself. On the other hand if he had always objected to incentives, or was always lukewarm to them, the NY Times attack on him this year falls short. In fact, if Joe had always expressed dislike of incentives, that would have been a clue to Yankee brass as to how to get Joe out this year: load the contract up with incentives and he’ll most likely reject it, making an incentive laden contract a disingenuous offer at best.
5. Even if Joe put up with incentives in his last contract, a lot has changed on both sides since then. The last time Joe sat down with the Yankees to re-negotiate was a few years and $7 million ago. Paraphrasing Boras, wealthy men can afford their principles – after earning $7 million more, that includes Steinbrenner and Torre.
6. The 2007 Yankees were certainly not the ‘96 Yankees, as Hank is so fond of pointing out. With everything that went down this past season, the bad start, rallying the team to stay alive and getting them to the wild card, this may have been Joe’s finest work as a manager. Add on to that the insult issued by Steinbrenner that immediately preceded Game 3, the infamous “win or else,” and I can see Torre being especially sensitive to incentives this year even if he wasn’t so sensitive under his last contract. What Torre didn’t realize was that no one cared what he thought about all that and it was a take-it-or-leave-it offer.
So, the NY Times doesn’t see that getting incentives instead of an apology for Steinbrenner’s gaffe, coupled with the Yankee brass’ failure to give Joe a hearty “thank you for 2007” in the form of contract generosity, was an insult? I think the NY Times has a credibility problem.
I can’t believe I am saying this, But BRAVO NYT!!! Great article!! My respect for Torre is less and less.
Murphy- don’t get into semantics. He said he found the need for motivation to be insulting, than why did he need the incentives after a certain number of wins? or after winning division series?
The Stein kids aren’t dummies. They both run successful business’ and know not to screw this up.
This franchise will be fine.
This isn’t James Dolan II.
murphydog needs a good hug.
Jennifer:
Haven’t you ever gone along with something you weren’t crazy about for a while and then one day decided enough is enough? Did that make you a hypocrite or destroy your credibility?
Just because Torre went along with incentives in prior contracts does not mean he did so happily. It doesn’t mean he previously liked incentives and suddenly now he’s a hypocrite because he didn’t accept hem this time. The Times does not make clear whether Torre always considered incentives somewhat insulting but put up with them to keep the job. Thus, it’s no about semantics, it’s about the Times not doing a thorough job and documenting the course of prior dealings and the history of the two sides in prior negotiations. Focusing only on the end product of the prior negotiations isn’t a fair way to characterize Joe Torre’s credibility.
As I said above, if Torre had always greedily welcomed incentives, or even proposed them, the Times should have found out and printed that. It would have helped prove their point about a lack of credibility. But I suspect that Torre always tried to negotiate out the incentives in favor of non-contingent compensation. That undercuts the Times’ position in the current piece.
Plus I think you are glossing the fact that there were changed circumstances this year, including the Great Rally of ‘07 and Steinbrenner’s Game 3 threat. Maybe Joe was just more willing to walk away from incentives than he was previously, letting his principles finally have the last say this time.
Ohh its hard being a Yankees fan in Boston today..
People are celebrating like they’ve already won the series, which the basically have.
Things Ive heard so far:
‘You could get a hit off these Rockie pitchers’
‘There won’t be a save situation in this series’
Oh boy, the Rockies are just so overmatched.
“but consider the possibility that we are at the dawn of a New Era that goes beyond the (positive, in my opinion) managerial change, in which the owner does things like 1) conducts a thorough interview process; 2) consults a team of experts other than Arthur Richman; 3) Uses the word “patience.â€?
you bought enron when it peaked ,didn’t you?
Thank you, Eric, but I’m not into dudes.
murphydog—
But, NO ONE is asking Joe Torre those questions. Bob Costas sure didn’t, and you can be assured David Letterman wouldn’t either. And it is fair for the NY Times to bring this up because of the almost total one-sidedness of the coverage.
Frankly, I’d just prefer to move on. But my feeling here is Torre walked out because of a gut feeling. He talked about incentives and term of contract, but he also said he looked across the room and didn’t sense the same commitment. The talk about incentives etcetera is a red herring. He left because he felt like the people across the room felt like strangers.
It is sad how it all unfolded. One would have hoped for a better ending between a team and a popular manager. I wish the story would just die, just go away.
Torre stated in his press conference and reiterated in the Costas interview that what he found insulting was that the incentives were tied to his coming back for a 2nd year. He wanted a 2 year contract, specifically went to Tampa to sit down and make that point clear, told them he would take less money and was met with stone faced silence. The decision was already made before he sat down, there would be no guaranteed 2nd year. It will be interesting to see what kind of contract the next manager gets, won’t it? Joe Torre was and still is, the best man for the job. I’m going to keep my fingers crossed that the new guy can bring it, because I’m a Yankee fan, but I’m not convinced that changing the manager is the problem – still think it is and has been the lack of pitching. (IMO)
You are right we don’t know, Joe could have been the one insisting on putting the incentives in his contract, I’m sure he is a shrewd negotiator and would not allow something in his contract that he didn’t feel right about. Don’t forget those deals were made when Torre was king.
Mary than why when he was talking a ONE year extention in spring training did he only say that he wanted to close out the old Yankee Stadium? Why didn’t he want a 2 year extention so he could close and open Yankee Stadium.
murphydog – Journalism 101? The New York Times DID try and get answers/clarification from Torre, it says so in the article.
Maybe Joe was busy working on his Top Ten list for the Letterman show, but he did not respond to the New York Times.
Isn’t it obvious now that the Yankee offer was not, as the media rush to judgment portrayed it, nothing more than an intentional low ball contract designed specifically for Joe to turn down?
murphy…well thought out and insightful.
Like Pete said a few days ago, there’s always someone to go against the grain in this town.
Murray Chass decided to step-up and be the one to do it on this topic.
Calling Joe Torre a liar for choosing to decline a contract he (Torre) thought was insulting to him, his abilities and his body of work.
Might as well call all Yankee fans liars when they chant ‘Boston Sucks’
Guess Hank Steinbrenner found his schill in Murray Chass.
don’t you guys see that Torre was OK with a $1M incentive when his base salary was $7M?? it was a non-issue. he was already guaranteed $7M with the chance to make $8M.
when they changed it to $5M guaranteed with the chance to make $8M, he didn’t like that.
i can see the 2nd year being a sticking point, but i can also see why the Yankees didn’t want to guarantee it.
what if 2008 played out EXACTLY like 2007? slow start, wildcard, first round exit. are all the Torre supporters telling me they would be sitting here next offseason clamoring to bring Torre back AGAIN in 2009?!
given the lack of patience from the yankee fanbase, i really doubt it. that would make 5 straight postseason failures. what is the magic number before Torre supporters admit he has to go, 6? 7? 8??
And how long does one get a free pass for something that was done 7 years ago?
Bottom line he should have been fired after 2004, but was given a pass. 2004 was one of the most embarassing things that could happen to a team and fan base. Yet the Yankees let him keep his job. And than they were willing to offer him a contract for another year (some say it was an offer he could refuse), but you never know for sure. What if he accepted it? He would have been Yankee manager next year. Now some would say they could just fire him, well 5 million is alot to just “give away” if you think they were just trying to save face with the Yankee fan base.
Joey, how does that article change the fact that the ownership group offered him a contract with a 30% pay cut.
Would you accept that at your job? You boss says to you, “We want you to keep working here, but you’re gonna have to take a 30% cut in your pay.”
Please, nobody would do that.
I love how fans paint themselves as people with such high ideals and morals. Players make too much money. Scott Boras is the devil. Joe Torre is a greedy, good for nothing, liar.
I’d love to see how they’d react given the same situations, choices and opportunities as the men in the business of sports.
I think it’d be a different story if it were you sitting in that chair with someone threatening to take away 30% of your money.
hmmm – but don’t you remember? If I heard it once I heard it a million times – always in big capital letters….
PEOPLE! IT’S NOT ABOU…
oh never mind
Doreen:
Frankly, the whole story is about at the end of its shelf life. I do agree that we all need to move on, the NY Times included. I also think the Times can write whatever it wants, I just object to the use of tone in place of facts.
They could have nailed him if they had delved into the prior dealings and found that Joe never objected previously to the incentives during negotiations, but they got lazy and went for a slap fight instead. Not good journalism IMO. Just because Costas, Letterman and others didn’t ask about the prior negotiating history, doesn’t absolve the Times from not doing a better job.
Where did Mr. Chass find such intimate knowledge of Torre’s contract? Is this info a matter of public record or did someone in the Yankee organization want this info made public? Since it took a week for this info to come out, either journalists aren’t doing their jobs or it is not a matter of public record. It is sending me the message that Yankees current management is too focused on trying to be right.
Everyone needs to move on. At a time when the Yankees are on the verge of introducing a new manager, they are spending too much attention at trying to discredit their old one. Big picture thinking people; in an attempt to win the battle, they could instead lose the war.
It’s kind of funny…
A lot of people were up in arms at first about hoe the Torre thing was handled..
But people are starting to read more between the lines now, and it feels like a lot of the pressure is lifting off the brain trust..
I don’t think anyone’s necessarily calling Joe Torre a liar; just questioning why incentives were acceptable in the past and not now.
Murphydog—
I just also want to add that when your base contract is for between $6 and $7 million per year, do you really think the Yankees would want to also give him a bonus for winning the World Series? How can you be so certain that Torre did not ask for the bonuses? My point being no one knows for sure and no one has asked those questions. But on it’s face, it is a fair question. Perhaps the Times article will be the impetus for someone wanting to give Torre his side to ask those questions of him.
It also makes sense to me that Torre was ready to accept a one-year contract extension but was no longer ready to accept a one-year deal at the end because of all that transpired during the season. Never before had it been such a distraction during the season about whether or not he’d keep his job. Before, it had always been post-season, and so did not really affect his players. This year, it clearly did have an effect on everyone involved and I think Torre just did not want to have to manage with that noose hanging over his head.
Jonathon please explain to me why he was willing to take a 2.5 million dollar pay cut in April?
murphydog They left messages on his answering machine, he did not return calls. Were they supposed to hold onto the story waiting for a call that likely won’t come?
The problem is that this ownership group thought they were smarter than everyone.
They created this charade that the wanted Torre back, when they really didn’t. They offered him a contract they knew he would reject and then they could paint him as greedy.
Well it back-fired because they underestimated his popularity with everyone. Fans (except the majority on this blog), media, politicians, fans of other teams, sports fans in general.
If they didn’t want him back, they should’ve just said so instead of going through this charade.
If you are going to be manipulative, do so with cunning and not transparency. So far, not a good few days for the new ownership group, despite what Murray Chass writes in the NYT.
Joey Bagadonuts:
C’mon Joey. There were no other sources for that info besides Torre? Please. When the NY Times wants to find something out, they have a million ways to do it – - if they want to. It was lazy reporting by s superstar reporter.
Right from the nyt article
I still think the Rockies have a legit shot in this series. Their offense won’t sleep for long. They get their timing in game two and their pitching should get better as they too get back into the swing of things.
I’m surprised people keep nitpicking on the details of his contract, and that more people are turning anti-joe because of it. What was different about the contract this time around? Basically, this time around, he had lost the ‘trust’ and ‘committment’ of those around him, they didn’t have confidence in him when he met with them in the room at Tampa. These are psychological qualities that were important to him and had to do with his character. All this talk about incentives are REALLY beside the point, and perhaps a lot of people miss that because they have a different psychological make-up than JT- i.e., can work for a boss who doesn’t like them, or can work at any job offered for 5 mill no matter the conditions. Don’t forget how emotional he was at the end of the season..he wanted to come back, he turned things around from 21-29, and he may wind up with AL manager of the year. THIS was the year that he felt he managed the most and deserved credit, THIS was the year he managed with the most adversity, yet they let him twist in the wind and didn’t even invite him to tampa. How do people not see the fact that he basically had to invite himself to Tampa to talk with these chumps as a sign they didn’t want him? (especially now that they are spending 6 hours a day with new candidates)
Come on now, we all want to place our anger at this debacle somewhere, but let’s not go revisionist on what Torre has done. He should have managed for the last year in the stadium and given candidates time to prep for the next year. And people like Murray Chase have to sell papers and find some left-field angle to the story that people haven’t discussed yet….
Pat-
I think the article said they got the information from the commissioner’s office.
Murphydog—
They should have interviewed Joe Torre and asked him about these things before going forward with the article; if they tried to reach Torre and he did not want to answer the questions, they could have written as much. If they didn’t try to reach Torre, they should have disclosed that as well.
jennifer:
I agree they shouldn’t wait forever for Joe to answer. But as I said above, there are always plenty of other sources of info when the Times wants to find something out. The Times is not a bunch of choirboys (and girls) when it comes to writing a story and Chass is a columnist, not a beat writer, so he gets to swing his ax.
Than instead of lying and gaining (or so he thought) sympathy, just say I don’t feel I had managements full support and I choose not to return. Don’t give us this crap about the years no wait the incentives. Joe is looking worse and worse.
“Come on now, we all want to place our anger at this debacle somewhere, but let’s not go revisionist on what Torre has done. He should have managed for the last year in the stadium and given candidates time to prep for the next year. ”
so then he should have accepted the deal.
Jennifer—
I missed that paragraph. So, they decided to go forward with the story before they heard back from Joe. They can always revisit if Torre wants to talk to them. Or perhaps they can try his agent?
Jennifer… I don’t know, I’m not Joe Torre.
All I can do is speculate and I think it’s because the contract he was negotiating with Swindel was just that, a negotiation. Give and take, quid pro quo, comprimise, both sides working towards an agreement.
What happened to Torre last week was an edict from above. There was no comprimise. It was a take it or leave it deal forced on him by people he knew had been trying to get him out for years.
It’s a very different situation.
jennifer:
We’re not changing each other’s minds. Let’s agree to disagree? The Torre thing is getting old anyway and there’s a lot to look forward to.
Jennifer-Joe did say that when he went to Tampa last week and went into the office he had a weird feeling and it didn’t feel like it normally did. He wasn’t as comfortable and didn’t feel like he had managements support. It felt too much like business and it shouldn’t after 12 years. There wasn’t just one reason he rejected the offer. He said he might’ve accepted the offer with incentives if there was another year attached, so he wasn’t agains the incentives, he just didn’t think they were necessary.
“The Stein kids aren’t dummies. They both run successful business’ and know not to screw this up.”
show us all the links to the info that hal n’ hank have run successful businesses .
i’ve been waiting for these links since the hal n’ hank have taken over.
here’s a link to an opposing view of hank:
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spwally255430787oct25,0,4343921.column
from the article”This is all perfectly in character for a man who, in 1990, told the New York Times, “I don’t think it’s such a big deal to run around playing a damn game and getting paid millions of dollars for it.”
did hank call baseball ” a damn game” ? yup, the yankees are in good hands.
Jonnycat, try convincing anyone here of that and all you’ll get is 4-13 in the last 17 postseason games.
What good Joe Torre did while he was here.
Nobody acknowledges when players say the only reason the Yankees made the playoffs this year was because of Torre.
Nobody pays attention when Derek Jeter releases a statement speaking of Joe like a father figure to him.
All you hear is 4-13 and now you here the work liar being thrown around. Very sad day.
Doreen go back and re-read the article they did state they tried to reach him.
Jennifer
The fact that he was willing to take a paycut in April tells me that the money was not the issue. This all comes down to Torre not feeling wanted by an organization that he was a part of for 12 years.
If this was handled properly, the Yanks would have sat down with Torre and told him they needed to move on with a new manager but they wanted to keep him as part of the organization. They would have offered him a personal services contract. Torre would have thrown out a few ceremonial first pitches, signed autographs in spring training, talked Bernie Williams to come back to the stadium, participated in photo ops and PR for the All Star game and the new stadium opening and helped promote the Yankee brand when inducted into the HOF.
Instead this is like a bad divorce where everyone wants to make sure the other persons friends gets to hear their side of the story.
Joe Torre’s bitterness doesn’t impact the running of a team I love.
murphydog sounds good. and I just went against what I said the other night
No more talking about JOE!! LOL
okay one last thing i’m saying on this ( I think)
ND Yank – he said he didn’t like the idea of “incentives” hanging over the players heads, that they have enough distractions.
“Nobody acknowledges when players say the only reason the Yankees made the playoffs this year was because of Torre. ”
yeah, i think it had more to do with A-Rod and Andy Pettitte.
Funny that when the team wins it’s the players, when the team loses it’s Torre.
Which one is it? Just wondering.
Jennifer—
I wasn’t doubting you—I was simply saying I missed it. My bad, not yours.
Wait, the Yankees sign two guys from the Israeli Baseball League, and neither guy’s a Jew?
Not just me saying by the way, players and coaches alike all said the same thing.
Joe Torre kept that clubhouse together, kept their heads in every game and lead them to the playoffs.
There’s another manager in town who did the complete opposite this year. Lost the clubhouse in the last two weeks of the season, let concentration lapse and lead his team to an historic collapse.
He’s still the manager of that team. Funny how things work in Yankeeland.
Was my comment abusive?
I merely said, “wait, the Yankees sign two guys from the Israeli Baseball League, and neither guy is Jewish?”
How did that get censored?
The Bad Divorce analogy is pretty apt. Don’t know why Chass has to get involved at this point and take sides, instead of pointing out that usually both sides bear responsibility. I guess Murray’s just sucking up to Hank and Hal to make his job easier in the coming months.
“it feels like a lot of the pressure is lifting off the brain trust..”
why does the word” oxymoron ” come to mind. i don’t think hal n’ hank’s names should ever be used in the same sentence with the phrase “brain trust”
It was about “trust” and “respect” and length of contract, not the money? So if the Yanks offered him $1.66 mil per over three years, and asked him really, really, really nicely, he’d be back? Please.
Joe’s problem is he started believing his own press and it kept him from pouncing on a deal the Steinbrenner’s should never have offered in the first place.
You think he’s bitter now? Wait until next summer when he’s staring at the wall in Westchester while someone else is taking bows for skippering a first-place team in the last year of the old stadium.
Maybe Bernie can teach him to play the guitar.
jennifer:
Me too. No more Joe.
murphy – You asked “what was JOE’S prior position on incentives?”
Well, aside from the rather obvious fact that he signed several prior contracts which included them without a peep of protest, the NYT did attempt to ASK JOE what HIS prior position was…
And then you say that Chass coulda shoulda got that info elsewehere??? Please.
Looks like the “lazy” one here is Torre, no?
And what do you mean by “tone” instead of “facts”. What we had from the media up till now was nothing BUT tone and speculation.
The worm has turned here, and some people are uncomfortable that their assumptions have been challenged with inconvienent facts.
And as long as Torre continues his media blitz, we have not heard the end of it.
randyhater:
OUCH!
“Joey, how does that article change the fact that the ownership group offered him a contract with a 30% pay cut.
Would you accept that at your job? You boss says to you, “We want you to keep working here, but you’re gonna have to take a 30% cut in your pay.�
Please, nobody would do that.”
really? because Bernie Williams made $12.5M in 2005 and came back for $1.5M in 2006. Mussina made $19M in 2006 and $11M in 2007.
why is that? b/c their performance had declined. just like Torre’s had.
also, this 30% paycut is such a red herring. on the open market, Torre is worth about $4M. The Yankees offered him $5M + incentives.
and one of those incentives was REACHING the ALDS. so all the Yankees had to do was make the playoffs and Torre makes $6M. sounds pretty good to me.
yes, the Yankees offered him a paycut, but the fact is that his salary was WAY out of line with his market value.
Who’s this Joe Torre you guys are talking about?
History books are dull.
Let’s flip to the entertainment section: the ARod clock is ticking down (end of world series + 10) and Halloween is less than a week away.
not to mention manana’s big announcement, the Santana sweepstakes, and what promises to be a pop’n Hot Stove league.
Only 113 days till spring training – it’s never too early to start you’re shopping.
with so few comments about peter’s article about pena being interviewed, it shows what the blog thinks of pena’s chances. but you never know. with this new ownership dynamic of hal n’ hank, anything could happen. i’m still expecting mattingly simply because i can’t imagine the steinbrenner kids putting up with “backtalk” from the hired help. i think it’ll dawn, at some point, on them that girardi came to the yankees on zimmer’s recommendation and will be as much his own man as zimmer was. i’d like to see girardi get the job, but i don’t think he will.
murphydog-
You are right on the money. Torre was treated like garbage on his way out, if he signed the 1 year extension in Spring Training, that would have been a 2 year deal including 2007 season.
Now that some time has passed, I am looking forward to either Mattingly or Girardi as manager, I think Bowa comes back for Mattingly but not Girardi. I also believe Pena will come back regardless unless he gets the Pirates job.
“why is that? b/c their performance had declined. just like Torre’s had.”
Really is performance has declined? Then why is it most people around baseball that you hear quoted say Torre did one of his best managerial jobs this year? As we have learned the playoffs are a crap shoot, but when a guy is able to take a team that is at .500 entering July and turn them into a playoff favorite, I’d say he did a pretty good job. But I guess you can say he was on the decline, sure thing.
I think it’ll be Donny.
I mean the Yankees want a change of pace, but they recogonize that a certien style of managing has brought them a degree of success over the last 12 years or so.
Oh and I thought it was pretty common knowledge that Murray Chass has always been a puppet for the yankee managerment, even dating back to the 1970’s when George at war with Billy Martin. This story was fed to Murray, I don’t doubt that for a second.
Also, whats the feeling about the pitching coach? Is there a favorite right now? Anymore word about Gator?
Joey Bagadonuts:
I promised myself and jennifer no more Joe comments. I get the fact that you don’t like Torre’s exit. Cool. My issue is with Chass and his failure to get some of what I would call highly relevant info before he planted his foot up Joe’s posterior and basically called him a liar.
1. You wrote: “And then you say that Chass coulda shoulda got that info elsewehere??? Please.”
Sorry, Joey. I’m not following the “duh, so stupid” aspect of my suggestion. What would have been wrong with a little more digging after the easiest and most obvious source didn’t call him back? When they ask VIPs things, they know there is a motivation to self protect or the possibility of no response. At this point in his career, Chass has plenty of sources with whom to double check or verify things on background or even anonymously. Murray was lazy.
2. You wrote: Well aside from the rather obvious fact that he signed several prior contracts which included them without a peep of protest…”
Seriously… how would you know about peeps of protest unless you knew what transpired in the negotiations? Just because you sign a contract doesn’t mean you love all of it. That’s what arms’ length negotiation means. You give a little to get a little, you compromise.
Let me see if I have this right
A one year extention when he ASKS for it, with no futher COMMITMENT from the Yankees is OK with Joe, but becomes an INSULT when OFFERED after a disappointing end to a season.
INCENTIVES are OK when included on a HUGE base salary, but a lack of respect when included on a still larger base by far than any other manager in baseball history.
Joe, I love you but what would have been so wrong in your acknowledging at least some fault in the the 3 PS first round flameouts in a row by accepting a decrease in pay, & then winning the 2008 WS, & showing you are till worthy of a longer term deal at your price? You are still earning an obscene amount of $. You are better than wrongfully playing the unfair victim card. Your false pride surely will lead to a next job where you will have Zero chance to go all the way, unlike had you stayed with the Yankees. Anyway, thanks for the great run.
StandingO’Neill:
Interesting. I wasn’t paying attention to sportswriters then. (Nothing personal, Pete!)
That certainly explains why Joe didn’t break his neck to call Murray back and also why the rest of the story wasn’t filled out.
Whose credibility is tainted now, Murray baby?
“As we have learned the playoffs are a crap shoot, but when a guy is able to take a team that is at .500 entering July and turn them into a playoff favorite, I’d say he did a pretty good job. But I guess you can say he was on the decline, sure thing.”
yes. his performance had declined.
1996 – WS
1997 – ALDS loss
1998 – WS
1999 – WS
2000 – WS
2001 – WS Loss
2002 – ALDS Loss
2003 – WS Loss
2004 – ALCS Loss
2005 – ALDS Loss in 5
2006 – ALDS Loss in 4
2007 – Wildcard, ALDS Loss in 4
Looks like a pretty clear “decline” to me.
“really? because Bernie Williams made $12.5M in 2005 and came back for $1.5M in 2006. Mussina made $19M in 2006 and $11M in 2007.
why is that? b/c their performance had declined. just like Torre’s had.”
Really….Torre’s performance had declined? Really? The Yankees won 94 games and made the post-season 12 straight years.
That’s a decline in performance? I can think of about 29 other teams that would accept that kind of declining performance.
I can think of about 4 or 5 teams that would give their right arm and their 1st born for that kind of decline in performance.
Okay so if he doesn’t win the WS every year its a decline. Sounds good. Stupid Torre, should have known better then to win the world series 4 times in his first 5 seasons.
I was really hoping it would be Girardi.
But now hearing that the decision is coming down so fast and they didn’t even do round 2 interviews make me believe it’ll be Donnie. Either of the other two would have required more thinking, preparation for potential collateral damage, PR consequences, coaching changes, etc. The urgency to resign Arod and co aside, the fact that they are turning this around in record speed makes me think there are little immediate consequences for them to worry about, meaning it’s Mattingly.
I think we really need to put all this Torre stuff behind us now..
It’s so pointless to argue about these things..
I mean does anyone really expect to proove someone else wrong with opinions?
Lets move on..
hmmm,
i know your argument that torre had a decent offer doesn’t imply you support hal n’ hank, but what is your honest politically incorrect opinion of hank( since hal doesn’t seem to speak) ?
i think “wait and see” about him is a cop out because the man is in his fifties. he is what he is. he has a track record from living half a century. what he’s done so far with his life is pretty much what we’re going to see. my question is simply what do you think of him.
Seems as hard as we all try not to talk about Joe, something else comes up…i’m sure once the new manager is hired, we’ll all be able to move forward. scary thing is, when spring training starts, things will be maginified 10 fold…its going to be hard to watch games in 2008 with all the homers who broadcast cough michael kay cough saying “Would Joe have done that” or “last year, it would have been a different story”. I love Torre and all for what he brought to the Yankees but he should have been canned in 2004. That was just unexplainable. I sincerely hope whoever the new manager is, they bring their own cadence into the mix. I like them all. I’d really like for us to keep Pena, Bowa and Mattingly. Would be nice to bring in Girardi as well. We have great chemistry. Would hate to see it crumble and fall apart based upon our former manager. I know they all loved him, and they can continue to love him. He just won’t be their manager. Such is life. Life goes on.
Did Torre’s performance decline, or did the Yankee’s starting pitching get worse.
Hmmmm….maybe there’s a correlation between the two events.
Actually Dee it makes me believe it is Joe G. I think Joe came across as well organized and knocked their socks off.
Bottom line is its really difficult to grade a managers performance. With the plays who took a pay cut, there were clear declining statistics to go by. With a manager, imo all you can really go by is how many games the team wins(90+), how the managers players react to playing under them(very high) and how much adversity a manager had to endure. Now granted being the manager of the yankees cam be a lot easier due to the players you have, but it can also be harder due to the expectations. When the team could ahve folded it up in June, they didn’t.
Lots of credit goes to the players, and credit goes to Torre too. Just like it swings both ways when they lose. As I said teh playoffs are a crapshoot, and when a manager wins 90+ games a year, he’d doing somethign right. If the playoffs are how managers are evaluated, Bobby Cox would have been fired a long time ago.
murph: don’t be terribly surprised that this article went forward with only “unreturned messages” on an answering machine and no other effort to speak to Torre personally. The NYT and credibility are rarely in the same room at the same time.
actually grafxkid if you listen to Kay he has a strong dislike for Joe, I don’t think that would happen.
DMan:
10-4.
*- wow way to many typos in that last paragraph I wrote, sorry.
D-Man is right, whether or not you like Torre, he’s gone and lets support our new manager. I like Girardi, but all 3 are good candidates, so if we get our players back and stay healthy, things are looking good.
The only reason I really came out pro-Torre today is I think that article is a load of crap, it came out a week too late and Murray has little credibility in my eyes. Other than that if someone dislikes Torre then whatever, I will argue for him but its just a friendly debate, we are want the same thing…the yankees to win.
If we are to believe Hank Steinbrenner and his statement that the ‘baseball guys’ will decide who the next manager is, then it will be Girardi.
If the line of succession that has been planned by George Steinbrenner since Mattingly was brought back to the Yankees in 2004 is carried out, then it will be Mattingly.
It won’t be Pena, he filled a minority interview rule passed by the Commissioner’s Office a few years ago. Sad but true.
I think we’ll know by the end of the day.
IMHO it will be Mattingly, he’s the best shield for the new ownership group.
Jennifer, you’re absolutely right about Kay. Bad example. I should have used Susan instead. I just hope that it’ll be a smooth transition. I’m praying it will be.
“my question is simply what do you think of him.”
honestly, i have no idea yet. he is saying certain things that he is begin criticized for that i don’t think are so bad, and some things he says makes you cringe a little.
basically, this is what it comes down to: the guy is probably a pompous blowhard. but if he lets Cashman, with his team, run the team on the field, i don’t really care if he is a blowhard. he will give the tabloids their fodder, but at the end of the day, if Cashman, Stick, Oppenheimer, etc. are making the player decisions, they have the chance to make a very successful ownership team.
and i think this is where myself and SJ44 disagree with a lot of people here: we have yet to see any evidence that H N’ H are going to force Cashman and Co. to change the way they do things. We have yet to see the evidence that Hank is going to be like George and trade away Phil Hughes.
people are using the Torre situation as evidence that Cashman has lost power. i don’t see it that way. i think the Yankees were right to hold firm on a 1 year deal for Torre. people here seem to think Torre should have had a lifetime contract, yet the same exact people would be calling for his head if he lost in the first round next year.
“It won’t be Pena, he filled a minority interview rule passed by the Commissioner’s Office a few years ago. Sad but true.”
Excellent point.
“Did Torre’s performance decline, or did the Yankee’s starting pitching get worse.
Hmmmm….maybe there’s a correlation between the two events.”
The price of starting pitching has increased rapidly over the last few years and Torre’s inability to properly leverage the bullpen has proven more costly without a star studded starting staff. The correlation is there, but if the guy can’t get the job done without an all-star rotation then it’s on him.
“we have yet to see any evidence that H N’ H are going to force Cashman and Co. to change the way they do things.”
Exactly. If we see an increase in backloaded deals to aging stars, or any of the prospects Cashman has protected traded away for overrated veterans, then we can start to complain about the “new” ownership. There is simply no evidence to suggest that things have dramatically changed and there is nothing to criticize unless you want to be an irrational idiot like randy l.
Ellen:
The newspaper business is what it is. I just object to the Times pretending that they are above the fray.
After the Jayson Blair and Howell Raines scandals (include Judith Miller here too) I read a book by Dan Okrent, who has a long career in journalism and publishing, has written a couple of good baseball books and is seen in Ken Burns’ Baseball Documentary. Okrent is also credited with being the inventor of Rotisserie Baseball.
In 2003 Okrent became the NY Times’ first Public Editor, brought in to review and oversee the Gray Lady’s editorial processes and restore public confidence. It’s an interesting and revealing peek inside the Times, which does deserve credit for agreeing to have a Public Editor.
The book is “Public Editor Number One: The Collected Columns (with Reflections, Reconsiderations, and Even a Few Retractions) of the First Ombudsman of The New York Times” by Daniel Okrent (Hardcover – May 16, 2006)
“Okay so if he doesn’t win the WS every year its a decline. Sounds good. Stupid Torre, should have known better then to win the world series 4 times in his first 5 seasons.”
actually, there is a lot of truth in this. had Torre spaced his titles out a little more, say 1996, 1999, 2002, and 2005, he’d still be here. no doubt.
and i don’t disagree with you about the ridiculous expectations.
but you have to understand is that everything cuts both ways.
if we accept the premise that the “playoffs are a crapshoot”, then it shouldn’t be such a big deal that the Yankees wanted to change managers since he shouldn’t be allowed to continue to coast on 1996-2000.
just like this season cuts both ways. everyone says he did his “best job ever” by getting them to the playoffs after going into July at .500. but how come he gets no blame for BEING .500 in July?? sure, there were some injuries, but a lot of people say it is b/c the players come into ST out of shape. well, who is to blame for that?
there are too sides to every story and it comes down to this:
Torre got too much credit when they won and he is getting too much blame when they lose.
but sometimes change for the sake of change is a good thing.
i would have been ultimately ok with one more year of Torre, but at the same time i just can’t get worked up enough to see his dismissal as a return to the “dark ages” for the Yankees.
the Yankees will win again without Joe Torre.
‘the playoffs are a crapshoot’
I hate that expression. Yes, over a five game series the best team doesnt always win. But if you combine solid pitching with timely hitting, you will prevail.
Were the playoffs a crapshoot in 96 or 98-00?
murph, no way! you simply cannot be serious – journalism 101 remember? You brought it up. So Chass is now supposed to quote someone not named Joe Torre to tell us what JOE TORRE’S position is, and that would have been just fine with you? Yeah it would, but only if they said something you wanted to hear.
Call him a shill, said he was fed the info, whatever. Makes no difference. The story is in no way “tainted” if it’s factual. Probably not a good idea to lecture on journalism 101 – sorry, but you seem to lack even a rudimentary grasp of it.
“there are too sides to every story”
uhh, “two sides”. yikes.
“I hate that expression. Yes, over a five game series the best team doesnt always win. But if you combine solid pitching with timely hitting, you will prevail.
Were the playoffs a crapshoot in 96 or 98-00?”
They were a crapshoot back then, which is why we all are spoiled now and don’t realize just how remarkable the accomplishment was. Lots of luck went into winning those World Series.
Gimme a break…
Let’s look at the Yankee’s options over the past few years.
Randy Johnson in crucial Game 3 in the ALDS in 2005 and 2006.
Kevin Brown and Javier Vazquez in Game 7 of the ALCS in 2004.
Jaret Wright in Game 4 of 2006 ALDS.
Mike Mussina, as your ace since 2003, laying an egg in Game 5 of the 2005 ALDS and choking up a 2 run lead in Game 2 in the 2006 ALDS.
All of those performances were a result of Joe Torre’s inability to manage a bullpen. ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!
Jaret Wright, Corey Lidle, Kevin Brown and Javier Vazquez hardly, hardly compare with David Cone, David Wells, Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, El Duque, Jimmy Key, the list can go on but I have to go to work.
If you are going to come, come strong…or come stronger than that…please.
Not winning the World Series in 2003 and 2004 was directly related to Joe Torre mismanging the bullpen.
B:
I don’t recall randy1 attacking you personally. What gives?
“Jaret Wright, Corey Lidle, Kevin Brown and Javier Vazquez hardly, hardly compare with David Cone, David Wells, Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, El Duque, Jimmy Key, the list can go on but I have to go to work.”
That’s the point. He couldn’t rely on ridiculous rotations stocked with great pitchers. Anyone could manage teams with David Cone, Davide Wells, Roger Clemens, and Andy Pettitte.
murphydog,
He repeats this stuff about Hank and Hal being the end of the world everyday and I’m sick of it. His schitck is wearing thin.
its going to be march and you folks are going to be having this discussion. Its pretty hard to see what the managers impact really is. Those for torre talk about the last 12 years, those against talk about the last 17 postseason game. Who is right and who is wrong? Can this be a situation where both are right and both are wrong. Changing or keeping torre really wouldnt affect this team either way. If torre comes back next year, the yankees win 92-97 games, if torre doesnt come back next year, the yankees win 92-97 games. Unless Mattingly ends up being like dusty baker. We are going to be fine.
Yeah, torre is liar, the man that raised a ton of money for his foundations and was an all around nice guy. Yeah, what an ahole.
Move on people. You are splitting hairs.
Joey:
Brilliant retort.
I guess in your world negotiations go on with only Joe Torre in the room and no one else who may have heard what he or his agent were looking for or what proposals and counter proposals they may have made?
B:
Okay, give him some time to get it off his chest. He’s not a dummy by any stretch.
The manager matters much less than retaining A-Rod, Posada, Pettitte, and Mariano. We lose those first two and God wouldn’t make the playoffs managing the team.
Isn’t it something how much of a difference that one week makes? A week ago today the consensus was that the other Joe was coming back. Now today another Joe (or Donnie or Tony) could possibly get the keys to the Yankeemobile.
“Randy Johnson in crucial Game 3 in the ALDS in 2005 and 2006.”
Johnson was pretty good in 2005. Not sure what your point is. he wasn’t RANDY JOHNSON, but he had a 3.79 ERA in 225 innings that year.
“Kevin Brown and Javier Vazquez in Game 7 of the ALCS in 2004.”
Had Torre started Moose in game 4, he’d have still had El Duque for game 7. There was a rainout, he could have started Moose in game 4 on regular rest. There was actually no reason to use Vazquez or Brown. The fact is that Torre was already lining up his rotation for the World Series.
“Jaret Wright in Game 4 of 2006 ALDS.”
can’t argue with this one.
“Mike Mussina, as your ace since 2003, laying an egg in Game 5 of the 2005 ALDS and choking up a 2 run lead in Game 2 in the 2006 ALDS.”
how did Moose “lay an egg” in game 5? he went 6 innings, 2 ERs, 7 K’s in Fenway park? this is simply wrong.
the one who laid the egg in game 5 was Tom Gordon. and maybe he would have had more in the tank had he not pitched the 9th inning of game 3 with a 19-8 lead. please explain that.
Honestly Hmmm I do attribute the .500 record before July to being due to injuries. If we hadn’t lost most of our rotation then yes I would say the blame falls on Torre.
And I do understand your point that Torre gets a lot of credit. I think he is a very good manager, but not an icon for all managers to follow. However his track record speaks for itself, he has won in NY, under different circumstances, and I say until he entirely misses the playoffs, or his team quits on him in July, then we keep him as manager.
Also if there was really ever a time to fire him, I would say it may have been last year, after the Tigers series. Again I say the playoffs are a crapshoot, but the team just came out real flat and didn’t look motivated. Even though we lost to Cleveland this year in the same amount of games, the team seemed to have more life and play with more urgency. Cleveland was just a better team. Also his handling of arod last year was questionable, and it appeared the players weren’t solidly behind him. However this season imo he showed he can still run a team. Thats why I thought he deserved to stay.
Yes lets not get all bent out of shape over the manager here.
Yes they are important, but the players matter more..
Lets not forget that the White Sox mananged to win a WS with Ozzie at the helm.. Go figure.
does everyone realize we are discussing an article from a man who once wrote this:
Finally, not long ago, I came across VORP spelled out. It stands for value over replacement player. How thrilling. How absurd. Value over replacement player. Don’t ask what it means. I don’t know.
I suppose that if stats mongers want to sit at their computers and play with these things all day long, that’s their prerogative.
But their attempt to introduce these new-age statistics into the game threatens to undermine most fans’ enjoyment of baseball and the human factor therein.
For the conspiracy theorists out there:
In the same way that some people questions George Mitchell’s presence in the Steroid investigation while he holds a position on the board of the Red Sox, could the same question be asked about the NYT reporting of things Yankees because they own 17% of the Sox?
Johnathon- Funny that when the team wins it’s the players, when the team loses it’s Torre.
The correct answer is they ALL win together and they ALL lose together, that’s why they are a team.
-Joe Torre kept that clubhouse together, kept their heads in every game and lead them to the playoffs.
I have no doubt that Joe did those things but do you honestly believe there is no one else out there that can do that job and perhaps do it a little better? While Joe did HELP get them into the playoffs every year he couldn’t get them over that hump of getting out of first round of the playoffs for the past 3 years, as a team they weren’t improving.
hmmm- Would you accept that at your job? You boss says to you, “We want you to keep working here, but you’re gonna have to take a 30% cut in your pay.� Please, nobody would do that.�
There are plenty of people out there that have taken pay cuts to keep their current jobs, and most of have done so weren’t still the highest paid in their positions. Joe himself was going to take MORE of a pay cut back in the spring.
Migames…its funny because I could kind of see Murray’s point in that article, but the way he wrote it I thought made him come off like such a clueless old man.
He’s an old style guy, who watched baseball in the ‘60s. He has the old scouting perspective, I can watch a guy and then critique him, which is fun, and part of the reason a lot of us watch the game. But for a sabermatician, looking over VORP and WARP stats are what gives them enjoyment. Personally I rather watch the game then study numbers like some accoutant, but to say VORP is meaningless is an ignorant statement by Murray.
“i don’t really care if he is a blowhard. he will give the tabloids their fodder, but at the end of the day, if Cashman, Stick, Oppenheimer, etc. are making the player decisions, they have the chance to make a very successful ownership team.”
hmmm,
thanks for the honest and direct answer. so all hal n’ hank have to do is turn things over to stick , cashman and oppenheimer, etc and things will go well ?
best answer that i’ve heard since the hal n’ hank have taken over. i have an immense amount of respect for michaels and cashman is growing on me since he seems to be showing a lot of respect and loyalty for his baseball people( meaning people who have played the game).
so the answer is simply that hal n’ hank should turn over the reigns of the baseball side of the operation to the baseball management team led by michaels and cashman. excellent idea. i’m all for it.
the next question is “are they doing that”?
if they are why isn’t cashman the point man on hiring a manager? why does hal n’ hank even have a major input into the managerial choice?
time will tell, but i’d like baseball people in charge of baseball decisions . no hank n’ hal and no levine.
“Would you accept that at your job? You boss says to you, “We want you to keep working here, but you’re gonna have to take a 30% cut in your pay.â€? Please, nobody would do that.â€?
Do I still make almost double everyone else in my position? Was I willing to negotiate a 1 year extenstion with a 35% paycut 6 months ago?
“if they are why isn’t cashman the point man on hiring a manager?”
Hiring the manager has always been and will always be the owners job as long as a Steinbrenner owns the club.
“He repeats this stuff about Hank and Hal being the end of the world everyday and I’m sick of it. His schitck is wearing thin.”
b-
hmmmn clarified his position clearly about hal’n hank. he said they need to turn things over to michaels , cashman and the basebal people. do you have a problem with that? i don’t.
or do you want hal n’ hank making baseball decisions? if you do, why ?
The Times, or any newspaper worth its salt, has to be professionally skeptical, objective and impartial and must independently verify its facts on the news side. The columnists are different in that their job is to do more interpreting and filtering, and even opine for the reader, rather than present the issue fully, objectively and dispassionately. Chass is also like a tenured professor there. If anyone at the Times told him what to write, or not write, he’d smack the guy with the old Smith Corona typewriter he probably still uses. And he’d be right to do so.
Any interest the Times has in owning anything other than the Times compromises to some degree their ability to report on the entity owned. But I’m not sure that a corporate ownership in the Sox held by a publicly traded company like the NYT necessarily translates to cranky, old independent-minded columnists having an anti-Torre bias. I think it was just Murray being Murray.
Randy 1
I take it as a good sign that they actually interviewed three candidates, spending anywhere from 5 to 6 to 7 hours with each one, and getting input from the various interview “committees.” When Joe Torre was hired, as a I learned in an article I found yesterday from his 1995 hiring, not only was no one else even interviewed, but he met with George Steinbrenner for one hour and it was done.
At least this time around, serious consideration is being given to more than one person and whether George makes the ultimate decision or not, it certainly doesn’t seem to be a rubber-stamp thing. I think if it was a foregone conclusion that George’s choice was Mattingly, a one to two hour interview per candidate would have been ample.
“Even though we lost to Cleveland this year in the same amount of games, the team seemed to have more life and play with more urgency. Cleveland was just a better team. Also his handling of arod last year was questionable, and it appeared the players weren’t solidly behind him. However this season imo he showed he can still run a team. Thats why I thought he deserved to stay.”
fair enough.
doreen – no argument from me about the interviewing of the candidates. mlb actually insists on that.
what i don’t like is someone sitting at the interview table like hank steinnbrenner who once said, “I don’t think it’s such a big deal to run around playing a damn game and getting paid millions of dollars for it.â€?.
i’m just watching to see when he’s going to shut up and get out of the way. that would be his best contribution to the yankee cause.
Jennifer, I think Girardi should be the manager too. Mattingly is actually my 3rd choice of the three. But if the decision is Girardi, I think they would need more time to figure stuff out, like PR, arranging a glamorous front office job for Mattingly, etc. It would be less straightforward. So the fact their decision is coming so soon makes me guess it’s more likely to be Donnie.
B,
” The feeling among ownership is that Girardi, Mattingly or Peña would all be acceptable choices. Hank Steinbrenner said that he would essentially leave the final call to General Manager Brian Cashman and his staff.
“If the baseball guys are unanimous or near it, that’s the way you’ve got to go,â€? he said, adding that there were no more interviews to be done.”