Update on Posada and Rivera
-
- November
- 6
In speaking to Yankee officials and agents, here is a sense of where things stand with two important players for the Yankees:
Mariano Rivera: By the end of this week, the Yankees could announce a three-year, $40 million deal for their closer. Rivera was dramatically underpaid when compared to some of his teammates, but this would give him an average annual salary of $13.3 million.
Jorge Posada: This could be a wild ride. Posada almost certainly will not sign with the Yankees before Monday and will enter the market. The Mets, Blue Jays and other teams will get to make him offers and drive the price up. Posada told Newsday that he will meet with the Yankees this week and he clearly wants to stay in New York.
But Posada isn’t going to make it easy on the Yankees. The Yankees would like to get him for the same deal as Rivera. But Posada could want a fourth season and closer to $15 million a year.
Look at this way, he made $12 million in 2007. Eight of his teammates made more. Then he had one of the historically best seasons for a catcher in the history of the game.
This is Posada’s chance to cash in and he’s going to take it. I can’t say I blame him.
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on Tuesday, November 6th, 2007 at 11:40 am by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
not my money sign em up
Can’t lose his offense..get it done.
He would be such a chump if he signs with the lame Mets
I wonder if he’d take an auto-vesting option again.
In retrospect, I wish Joe, Mo and Jorge had all been extended in ST. But, hindsight is 20/20. The choice not to do it made sense at the time, especially with George’s ordained successor screwing himself out of the organization.
Idiot.
Giving Posada a fourth year would be a mistake. Make it more money for three years and I’m fine with it.
Mo, sign on the dotted line
Po, c’mon, you know you want to retire a Yankee. You know it.
so in all reality 2 years as catcher 2 as 1b/DH.
Jack and coke. Do it.
Yeah I think a vest option would be good. catch x number of games over 3 years kicks in. I truely think (hope) that he wants to reamin a Yankee. I think he just wants to know what it is like to be wined and dined.
As long as then sign both of these guys, I really don’t care how much it costs. As long as that money doesn’t go to the person formerly known as our 3rd baseman.
We can’t afford to lose these two. Get this deal done yesterday.
This is a no-brainer, these guys are proven. Give them what ever they want.
Look I know it doesn’t make it right. But we paid that lazy bum Carl Pavano 40 million dollars to win us 5 games!! and you have a good soldier like Jorge who has never been on the dl and plays just about every day. He owe it to him.
cant go to 4 years for Jorge.
Mo would still be underpaid. He should wait a week he’ll get 16 million a year with his eyes closed.
I’d much rather have Jorge get the money than Alex. do it 4 years 14 a year. (4th year kicking in with x games caught.)
More names on the HGH/’Roids list including Jose Guillen and Matt Williams
…testing…
Am I the only one that thinks signing Jorge for this amount at this age is lunacy? I just don’t see it. I don’t think he has 2 more years behind the dish. I love the guy and wish we’d have locked him in earlier but don’t throw good money after bad. I may give him a huge number for 2 years but I don’t see signing beyond that for around 15m per.
I know they’ll pay up but I will be here in 2 years when everyone is waiting for that 4 year term to be completed saying I told ya so.
you’re not alone, Big Joe.
I could see a option being offered for the 4th year. Posada deserves a nice raise. He is as much the face of the Yankees as Jeter and Mo are. He certainly has shown that age isn’t holding him back. Yankees don’t have a catcher waiting in the wings and the free agent market isn’t flush with catchers. Posada calls a great game and well worth having and will remain a Yankee. I don’t blame him for seeing what it’s like out there in the free agent market. Why not. Doesn’t mean he isn’t coming back to the Yankees. Just because you file for free agency doesn’t mean that you don’t want to remain with the team you are with. Same with ARod. Just because he opted out doesn’t mean he wants to go to another team. Players have a right to go free agency.
Okay, I dunno why I can’t post links, but at
sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3096834
Jose Guillen, Matt Williams and Ismael Valdez join the likes of Rick Ankiel, Paul Byrd, etc.
I’m glad that things are going smoothly between the Yankees and Mo. Jorge’s situation may be iffy but I think that it could be a good sign that he is meeting with the Yankees this week. It will do him and the Yankees a lot of good to meet and figure out exactly where each other stands. A three year deal with an option for a fourth isn’t bad. He could split time at DH and first base for the last year or two. We certainly won’t have Giambi blocking the way by then!
“cant go to 4 years for Jorge.”
You can as long as there’s no one else on the roster who’ll need to DH in 2011. Right now, it looks clear.
Though, I’d rather stay with 3 years.
Carlton Fisk caught into his forties but his offensive numbers dropped dramatically.
I think Jorge could catch for another two years, three tops. I think what others have said is right. With a 4 year contract he will be DH-ing or playing 1st by the last year.
the season he just had is truly unprecedented. But with a single pitch a catcher can break a finger or a wrist bone.
Having said that the Yankees don’t have a better option waiting so they may be forced into signing the longer deal.
It is definitely time to spend a high draft pick if their is a young catcher out there.
Sign Jorge to 4 years with the following things understood:
1. Part of it is as a reward for good time served being a Yankee.
2. He will probably catch two years at most, then move to DH.
3. He mentors the next guy who comes up.
Can’t give a 36/37 year old catcher, coming off a career year a 4 year deal. If he gets 4 years from the Mets, let him go. It’s a short-term loss, but a long-term gain and we need to think of the overall long-term health of the franchise. Trust me, in 2 years, everybody would be moaning that they can’t believe we have 2 more years of Jorge and his diminished performance and would be counting the days until his contract is over (see Giambi, Pavano, Kyle, Moose, etc.)….These same people would then demand Cash gets fired although they advocated giving a 36/37 year old 4 years……….
Thanks Turn Two…feel a bit better. I do love Jorge and know he helps keep Jeter happy too. Maybe big numbers with 3rd year vesting would work…but not fourth.
Can’t give 4 years to Posada. If he that’s a dealbreaker for him, so be it. Sign Torrealba as a FA and wait for Montero to develop.
Can’t give ANY 36 year old a 4 year deal. Especially a catcher. If another team is dumb enough to do it, I wish Jorge the best.
I am glad some of you aren’t the GM on this team. You would cave at the first sign of trouble. Not the way to run a team.
Sometimes, logic has to set in. Its too long a deal for Jorge. Its deals like that which clog a roster. A problem today with the Yankees.
They can’t continue to make the same mistake.
If he really wants to comeback, he will take a 3 year deal at a rate that would make him the highest paid catcher in baseball. That’s MORE than fair. If he doesn’t, thanks for the contributions over the years and best of luck in your new destination.
Don’t forget he didn’t come up a catcher so he hasn’t been catching his whole career!!
“Just because he opted out doesn’t mean he wants to go to another team. Players have a right to go free agency.”
But note that Jorge is LISTENING to offers. Note that he didn’t cause the team to lose 21 million dollars when he filed for free agency.
Posada can ask for whatever he wants. The Yankees need him.
Lots of other teams could use him.
The Yankees just have to sign him.
BTW, I disagree with the concept that Jorge was good for us in the past and deserves to be overpaid in 2008 because he was underpaid in 2007. Maybe so, but that’s his problem, not ours…tell him to take it up with his agent. Can’t be held hostage. If he leaves, he leaves. You give a contract for future performance not past performance. Those long-term contract for older players never work out for the teams and if we need to take a short-term hit, so be it. The next year when we can blow away a Santana or other great free agent, it will be worth it.
SJ44,
You bring common sense to these boards…enjoy your posts.
I have no problem with the Yankees “overpaying” both Jorge & Mo. Even if it is not super likely they will produce as in the past, they have been hard working, great Yankees & probably underpaid compared to what others Yankees have been paid so why not reward them for the sake of stability & continuity.
They should also spend on the Bullpen at all costs with A-Rod’s $ available. We don’t need to spend for more runs as Joe G. will be good at getting all those runners we waste across the plate. Keep Molina as well, & do overpay to steal Lowell is oston won’t give him the yeas he wants.
Future looks great. I wonder if Cashman asks for Girardi’s take on his current &/or possible future players. I would hope that Girardi is at least given an opportunity to voice his preferences & concerns before decisions are made., as I trut his observations alot.
Give him the 4 yr amount for 3 years, he’s been underpaid for so long! Then give an option based on performance for 4th year. NO money is too much when we’ve given the obscene amounts we’ve given to Pavano and Igawa, to name only 2! We need to start taking care of the people who got us there!
“Mo would still be underpaid. He should wait a week he’ll get 16 million a year with his eyes closed.”
give me a break.
i love Mo as much as anyone, but he will 38 and is coming off the worst season of his career.
this offer is more than fair.
Catchers half as good as Jorge are hard to come by. So we can ride out his decline. If his production falls off terribly and were able to produce a better catcher in the system or sign a Russel Martin, Victor Martinez ect than we would have a Switch hitting backup catcher, first baseman, DH with power.
Boo Hoo us.
3 years at 14 million per with a TEAM option for the 4th for 10 million. If he’s not worth the ten million at that point, decline the option and sign him to a lower amount, if he’s still healthy and productive and it makes sense to do so.
But gaurantee no more than 3 years and make him the highest paid catcher for those 3 years.
“Sign Jorge to 4 years with the following things understood:
1. Part of it is as a reward for good time served being a Yankee.”
what does this mean?
4 years is too much to give to 36-year old Posada. The Yanks should let him go and let some other team make a colossal $56-60M mistake (4 years @ $14-15M/yr.) in the final two years of his contract. Let the Mets have him. The Yanks could simply sign Paul LoDuca and Ramon Castro who combined for 20 HR and 85 RBI last year in the better pitching league. It is ludicrous to give a 36-year old catcher $56-60M based on his career year and the year he’s most likely plateaued. Posada’s not hitting anywhere close to the .338 he hit this year, his own history shows it with his previous single season high BA of .287 and career .277 BA. His 2007 BA was an anomaly. History in general shows no catcher has posted quality everyday player numbers at age 36-40. It’s just too risky.
Let’s say he posts .290, 20 HR, and 90 RBI for the Mets in ‘08 (he comes back to Earth with his BA but posts the same HR and RBI as he did in ‘07). He makes $15M. Let’s also say LoDuca and Castro combine for .270, 16 HR, 80 RBI for the Yanks in ‘08 (each hit 8 HR and drive in 40 runs). LoDuca makes $6M, Castro $2.55M (3X his ‘07 salary) for $8.55M total. I can live with the 20 less points on the BA, 4 less HR, and 10 less RBI with better defense for $6.45M 2008 Posada. Both are tradeable esp. Castro.
A three-year deal with a team option for the fourth may work out. By the time that fourth year comes around the Yankees will have had plenty of time to evaluate Posada and decide whether it’s worth it or not for him to bring him back. If it isn’t worth it, then the Yankees can pull the plug. That’s much different than a four year deal. If he wants an outright four-year deal with no option involved, then you do what SJ44 said, shake his hand and wish him the best in his future endeavors.
I wouldn’t sign Georgy for 4 years it makes no sense. A 2 yr. maybe even a 3 yr. but not 4.
hmmm why do you think the Yankees are trying to sign Mo before the 12th. Whats he worth to the The Red Sox who could irreparably damage the Yankees 2008 season. And Mo season was fine his stuff has diminished in the slightest.
I have a BIG problem with the Yankees overpaying for ANYBODY.
That’s why they are in the current position they are in with the roster.
Overpay for Giambi, Mussina, Clemens (as a one year stop gap because of the nightmare that is Carl Pavano), Kei Igawa, etc.
Sense a pattern here?
The Yankees current offer on the table for Posada makes him the highest paid catcher in baseball. Even over Pudge Rodriquez. Pudge is going to the HOF. Jorge is not.
Its not a “chump change” offer.
Jorge isn’t going to hit .330 again. I am all for him cashing in….but at a realistic limit.
3 years, 40 million is realistic. Four years is not.
You can’t keep tying up the roster with aging, over the hill veterans. Jorge at 40 years old, at 13+ million a year in 2011 is an anchor on this roster.
Fact is, players get old. We get attached to them, think we can’t live without them but, they get old.
You can’t be sentinmental about it. You have to be practical.
Practically from the Yankees perspective is 3 years at an AAV which makes him the highest paid catcher in the game. Anything more than that? Not only not practical, its dumb.
well said SJ44
I agree with some of the things said by Paul V and SJ44. My thought is we have an opportunity to have 2 very productive and very savvy Yanks enter contracts that will guarantee they will have played only for the Yankees. The contracts could be a bridge for them to remain with the Yanks in the years to come as player/coaches and then coaches when their time is ‘right’. When you factor in Jeter later, you have a tremendous future for the organization and continuing Yankee tradition of hig standards
“The Yanks could simply sign Paul LoDuca and Ramon Castro who combined for 20 HR and 85 RBI last year in the better pitching league.”
The NL is the better pitching league??? when did that happen…….
Some of you all are dreaming…
There is no way Jorge signs for a 2 year contract after the year he just had.
We have to hope he is reasonable, and takes a 3yr-45+ million deal or something like that. the Yankees are going to have to overpay to keep him to 3 years and not 4 — either way i feel it is a willing sacrifice. He will be effective behind the plate for probably another 2 years, and will get more significant 1st base/DH time/Days off with a more viable backup like Jose Molina.
4 years would be a bad contract… but the catcher market is so slim, it almost seems like a willing sacrifice. Especially since Montero is growing into a giant, right?
SJ44, would you agree to 3yrs/45 million? What would be reasonable amount for 3yrs?
I agree that 4 years does not make sense and would hamstring the Yankees. But in a compromise, I would be willing to go 42 million over 3 years.
Remeber this: Posada does NOT want to leave the Yankees. He’s using these other teams to drive up his price.
Call his bluff. Offer to make him the highest paid catcher in the game for the next 3 years…and MAYBE trhow in a team option for a 4th year (but not vesting option).
Does anyone really think Posada would throw away the pinstrips for a 4th year with the Marlins? Or even the Mets?
If he does…so long Georgie, it’s been a blast. Oh, and one other thing. Sorry, but you’re not gonna get the plaque in monument park and your number retired like you would have if you stayed.
So it’s sayonara to Jorge over the issue of one year in which he could DH and mentor the next young catcher? I guess it’s a sign of weakness for a team to show any loyalty to a player whatsoever. If this is the attitude, no one should be surprised when players declare FA without considering the “great privilege of being a Yankee”. As long as we’re casting aside players that are slightly past their prime, is there any way we can get rid of Jeter too?
(For the record, I think ARod was a fool to leave the team, and it IS a great privilege to be a Yankee. There are times it’s appropriate for the team to show loyalty to a player, and this is one. Jorge is no less a “True Yankee” than Jeter.)
Rumors are the Mets could offer $70M/5 years for Posada.
If that’s the case, good riddance.
SJ 44
LoDuca > Torrealba. You’re caught up in what he did for Colorado this year and he’ll believe his own hype as well. The guy will want years and dollars he’s just not worth. He did a nice job with Colorado this year, but he has been a career backup who got thrust into everyday work there whereas LoDuca has been an everyday catcher for many years and has already played in N.Y. He’s played in the cauldron known as Shea where everyone compares you to the guy across town. Torrealba and re-signed Molina is unacceptable. That’s two career backups sharing the position.
LoDuca-Castro would be better cuz either could start if thrust into that position i.e. if LoDuca gets hurt, Castro could hold down the position. When has Molina ever done that? When has Torrealba played every day before 2007? I see LoDuca as an acceptable starter and Castro as a super-backup. Those two could and should add up to their combined 2007 numbers if not close to it vs. inferior A.L. pitching.
peace Georgy we ain’t offering that ^^^^
Pepper,
3 years at 42 is the top end of where I would go with him.
If that’s not good enough, then he doesn’t want to stay with the Yankees. That’s the way I see it.
When you turn down a deal that makes you the highest paid player in the game, from the team you say you want to stay with, then you don’t want to stay. See one, Alex Emmauel Rodriquez as proof of that theory.
What to do if he departs? Sign Torrealba, already a better defensive option than Posada, and re-sign Molina to back him up.
There is no way I sign Posada to a 4 year deal. Nothing against Jorge. He is a fine player but, not for the next 4 years.
I am a huge mets fan and i believe he will go to the mets.
I say 3 years MAX. Posada isnt a gold glove catcher. As far as calling a good game alot of pitchers didnt want Jorge as their catcher so that is up for debate. For the people that are saying after 2 years he can d.h. You make it seem like you are sure that he will continue to hit good at that age. His homerun numbers are declining every year. Do we really want a 260-270 hitter with limited power to be our d.h. at that time. Its time to look at it as a business. Think with your head not your heard.
3 years is over extending it. If he declines it sign Loduca for 2 until the minor leaguer is ready. Enough with these contracts that keep hancuffing this team.
minaya will give him the contract he wants, meaning possible 4 years and 60 million.
So, let me get this straight. There is concern that a catcher who is 36 might break a bone with a bad pitch, but for someone younger that isn’t a concern?
What about him helping to mentor the next catcher for the Yankees. He has a bit less tear on his body and he works out hard all the time. He can be moved to 1st after he doesn’t do it as a catcher, but its throwing money away.
4 years isn’t a life sentence. It helps create a bridge. While it seems long, it isn’t if he isn’t catching the whole 4 years. He is a leader of the club. He works well with the pitching staff, he can mentor a new catcher taking over the role, he can DH, Switch hit, play 1st base. If he hits .270 something, its still respectable for a catcher.
I think on a 3 year deal you are looking at $45M at the absolute minimum.
There is very little doubt that it will take 4 years now.
My guess is the Yankees go $56M for 4, and MAYBE he takes that over the Mets’ offer.
In 2010 and 2011 he will have one of the worst contracts in the game, as an old, poor defensive DH with possibly the worst offensive production in the league.
But I guess that’s the price you pay to avoid having an OPS drop of over 200 points from TWO positions.
I would honestly rather see a $40M 2 year contract.
LoDuca is not a better defensive catcher than Torrealba. Not even close.
I’d sign Ramon Castro before I sign LoDuca. LoDuca is not a good defensive catcher.
To me, catching is a defensive position. You have to handle pitchers very well (which LoDuca does not), call a good game, and handle things defensively. Offense is a bonus. Offense seperates the Posada’s from the Molina’s of the world.
Defensively, Jorge is not a very good catcher. Bottom line, and I am being kind here, if he was good defensively, they win Game 2 in Cleveland. He has to get his body in front of the second WP by Joba. Castro, Molina and Torrealba make that play.
Jorge has been a very good player (mostly offensively) for the Yankees. However, this isn’t Old Timers Day where you can offer your appreciation via applause. This is business.
Four years for Posada at 36 years old makes no sense for the Yankees. If that’s the dealbreaker, there are other alternatives in the marketplace. Not sexier alternatives but, effective ones just the same.
“an old, poor defensive DH”
Haha – oops, that should have said “an old, poor defensive 1B/DH”…
“hmmm why do you think the Yankees are trying to sign Mo before the 12th. Whats he worth to the The Red Sox who could irreparably damage the Yankees 2008 season. And Mo season was fine his stuff has diminished in the slightest.”
why on earth would the red sox sign Rivera?
i guarantee you that jorge posada will be a met
Omar Minaya is so confident of signing Posada, he is negotiating a new deal with LoDuca at the present time.
Even Omar won’t overpay for Jorge.
That’s some crystal ball ya got there. Any stock tips for us?
I don’t like any of the alternatives. Maybe Barrett.
I love platoons. Get Javier Valentin, platoon him with Molina, and hope for the best.
I’d love Torrealba now he can defend behind the plate and calls a good game, he has above average speed for a C too, he kind of reminds me of the latino Joe Girardi
The Yankees have had issues with overpaying the past and now we’re dealing with it. Giambi, Clemens, et al. I like Posada and I want him to return. Ideally a 3 year deal with a team option for a 4th, maybe with a slightly insane buyout. The fourth year makes me nervous, but given the options – Torrealba ? – I’d rather take my chances with a 4th year of him platooning at DH than two to 3 years for Montero to show up (if he stays at catcher).
4 years is a very long time, people. How long? Think backwards. 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004. 2004? We had Kevin Brown, Javy Vasquez on our staff. Randy Johnson was not a Yankees yet? Not a Diamondback for a 2nd time. The Red Sox were on the cusp of a WS title and Joba was going to H.S. parties……don’t poo poo a 4 year deal…it is very very long and handcuffs the org.
Makes sense.
On Torrealba. I watched him all year long. He is a good defensive catcher that would be an excellent addition to the Yankees. This was his first season to play more than 80 games. If he gets the work from a hitting coach that is necessary, he could easily become a .260 – .270 hitter.
With the direction the Yankees are going, the need for Jorge’s offensive numbers from the catching position are not as critical as before. And as SJ44 stated, Jorge is not going to have the same year anytime soon that he had this year. He will fall back to his career numbers:
.270-280 BA
20-25 HR
85 – 95 RBI’s
if the Mets go 5yrs/70mill… I don’t think the Yankees match.
I think they go 4yrs/60mill with some team options thrown in there, maybe incentive bonuses, etc etc…
That is a LOT to pay a 40 year old catcher… Piazza was makin’ $8Mill a year at that point and struggling to be healthy for half a season.
But the Yankees have the money, I’d break the bank for Jorge because he is Jorge, and because quite honestly, finding solid catching is the hardest slot in the major leagues to find.
“That’s some crystal ball ya got there. Any stock tips for us?”
I’d say that if you’re in the business of predicting offensive success from 40 year old catchers coming off lucky seasons, worthy of $14M a year, you’re going to need a lot of stock tips…
i do think it’s kindof funny that some people want the yankees to draw a firm line in the sand about the duration of Posada’s contract yet it was this huge insult for the Yankees to do it to Torre.
Well, there is the slight issue of Torre’s physical condition being a little less important to his job than to that of Posada.
But you know, that’s just a minute detail.
Not surprisingly, Brian Cashman stated his recollection that certain of his free agents wanted to finish their careers as Yankees. Anyone who’s announced their intentions well ahead of bargaining time weakens their position. That’s what Mo Rivera has done for years which has allowed him to be underpaid–as it would for anyone. As expensive as relievers are, they’d be even moreso were it not for the fact that Rivera set the market.
On Lo Duca, agree with SJ44.
Watch Lo duca when he was with the Sun Devils in college and into the Dodgers organization. He has always been an average defensive catcher. His hitting got him into the majors, but at 35, the wear and tear on him is starting to show.
He has gone from a high of 149 games in 2002 to 119 games in 2007 – decreasing a little bit each year.
With all due respect, SJ44 (and you’ve certainly earned it), the “this is business” thing has been repeated too many times around here recently. Baseball is more than just business. Personalities and team identity and continuity matter too — that’s why you don’t see 50,000 people packing a stadium to watch Merrill Lynch brokers work. The old saw about the Yankees just being a bunch of high paid mercenaries is only true if the management makes it so.
All of you fools, and you are fools, claiming an age 38-40 Posada can be our 1b/DH are insane.
He is 36 and can’t play an adequate 1b right now. He wouldn’t be the starting 1b next season, let alone in the future.
What could possibly make you think he will be a valuable 1b 2 years from now? Nostalgia? Buy a ticket to old timers day and cheer for him. We don’t need to be trotting out old timers in the regular season when their skills have diminished, let alone expect them to make a position change and be a productive regular.
We should be hoping for Texiera and Carlos Pena at 1b in 2 season, NOT Jorge Posada.
They can give him 3 years with the last year his masvot farewell tour. Maybe he’ll catch 50 games in year 3. Anything more than that is lunacy.
I bet the people wanting Jorge for 4 years are the same geniuses who want to trade Damon for Crede and the Yankees to throw in cash to make sure the White Sox make that deal.
It’s wonderful to be a fan of certain players, but you want this team to win and continue to develop. You do not want Jorge Posada starting at any position 4 seasons from now for the Yankees.
You want to reminisce, go to monument park.
Bottom line is, it’s difficult dealing with players or managers near the end of their careers. They’re still productive enough that you want them on your team, but it’s a delicate situation dealing with players on the decline because you can’t justify paying them what they were worth when they were in their prime. You have to be responsible to the team first, then loyal to the player.
Normally I would agree with SJ44 about Posada. But I think there are several things going on here that will make a difference, and possibly get Jorge that 4th year, if that is what he is looking for. They need Jorge. If ARod had stuck around, they could play a little more hardball with Jorge, but not now. The cross-town rivals would love to have Jorge. Frankly, the Yankees couldn’t stand the PR hit right now if Jorge moved to Queens. He’s also coming off a career year, and though he probably won’t have another year like that, he’s surely going to capitalize on it just like any other free agent. Plus, he’s handled about a gazillion pitchers in the last 2-3 years. I know he’s not the best defensive catcher in the league, but he’s very good. He’s also at least somewhat familiar with all the new pitchers, Joba, Ian and Phil, and that’s a plus, too.
So, because it seems like Jorge comes up for free agency in “a perfect storm,” I’d say he’ll get pretty much whatever he’s asking for. And it’s always good for a team to retire as many of its homegrowns as possible.
Chris NY prove the A.L. has superior pitching.
Most of the dominant starters come from or pitch in the N.L.
Here is a list of active M.L.B. starters who were selected by N.L. teams and acquired from A.L. teams by N.L. teams early in their careers, and currently pitching for N.L. teams:
Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine,
Roy Oswalt, A.J. Burnett, Dontrelle Willis, Jeff Francis,
John Smoltz, Doug Drabek, Al Leiter, Ubaldo Jimenez, Chris Carpenter, Jason Schmidt, Brandon Webb, Tim Lincecum, Matt Morris, Jason Billingsley, Brad Penny, Curt Schilling, Josh Beckett, Tim Wakefield, Freddy Garcia, Jake Peavey, Ben Sheets, Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, Carlos Zambrano, Oliver Perez, Livan Hernandez, Cole Hamels, Brett Myers
…for starters. I’m going back to about 1990 with these guys.
And if the Mets offer $70M/5, and the best the Yankees can do is $42M/3, you can’t say he turned it down because he “didn’t want to be a Yankee.” That’s a massive difference.
If he should accept a vastly inferior contract just because it’s from the Yankees, why not just offer him the minimum?
The Yankees have to at least come close.
My best offer would be something like this:
$30M for 2008 and 2009.
2010: a $10M base, plus $50k for each game caught in 2009.
2011: a $7M base, plus $80k for each game caught in 2010.
I have no problem with $15M per year if he’s catching. But if he’s not, this has the potential to be disasterous.
SJ44, I agree 100% on the Cleveland wild pitches. Jorge got a huge pass on that and nobody called him on it. He just waived his hand at both of those WP’s. Granted, there’s not much time to move your body in front of 99 mph heaters, but there was little attempt. Don’t get me started on the complete leadership melt down during the bug incident….
jon – I’m not predicting anything. I certainly fail to see any signs that Posada would ever be a DH with the “worst offensive production” in the league. Why do you think that’ll be the case?
Posada’s contract is going to be terrible for the Yanks!!! Especially if he pulls the Arod diva attittude and tries to get every last dollar. His defense the last couple of years has really gone down hill. He had a great offense season and he will probably not come close to touching those numbers again. You would expect that any day now he will show the signs of over use, since he leads all catchers in innings caught. I would offer 3 years $42m if that isnt enough then good bye..he is already 37 years old!!
SJ44,
Name some of these alternatives that can match Jorge’s production over the next couple of years. He’ll probably have a steep decline over the last two years of his contract, but given the complete lack of talent available I think we need to sign him even if he wants 4 years.
“Well, there is the slight issue of Torre’s physical condition being a little less important to his job than to that of Posada.”
you’re missing the point.
the point is that people reacted so personally to what was a reasonable business decision by the yankees.
it doesn’t matter WHY the yankees only wanted Torre back for 1 more year. they did. so they offered him 1 year at a very high salary.
Torre refused, as was his right.
the point is that people here reacted as if the yankees put a dead horse head in Torre’s bed.
they didn’t. they decided on their offer. they made their offer. Torre declined.
i simply find it funny that people have NO PROBLEM making a “take it or leave it” offer to Jorge Posada after crying for weeks about how Torre got a “take it or leave it” offer.
if you can’t see the irony, i can’t help you.
“That’s what Mo Rivera has done for years which has allowed him to be underpaid–as it would for anyone. As expensive as relievers are, they’d be even moreso were it not for the fact that Rivera set the market.”
these 2 sentences are contradictory.
Nada, AL starters past their prime going to the NL to have success that matches what they had in the AL hardly proves your case.
At least in recent memory, AL starters that go to the NL tend to have better success in the NL, clearly a weaker hitting league. Point is, those pitchers are past their prime and go to the NL to continue having success that they can no longer have in the AL.
There is a reason that Josh Beckett is one of the few pitchers to come to the AL from the NL and have success. You have to be a better pitcher in the AL because there are better hitters and the DH. That’s not a secret.
“Here is a list of active M.L.B. starters who were selected by N.L. teams and acquired from A.L. teams by N.L. teams early in their careers, and currently pitching for N.L. teams:”
uhh, what does that have to do with 2007?
in 2007, the AL was superior to the NL.
Jorge will stay in NY. I heard he bought the apartment next to his and is expanding.
I don’t see anyway in hell the mets offering jorge the number that was thrown around. And if they do I wish Jorge luck. Can’t blame him for turning down an offer like that.
i find it funny how so many can look into the future and see Jorge being productive 3 seasons from now, but a 4th season is out of the question.
that said, up the 3 year offer to 45M.
You guys are missing something obvious….we don’t need an “name” at every position…it’s a team…if we lose Jorge’s offense at C, but replace him with a 1B or a OF who has a good bat, I would argue we are no worse off from an offensive perspective…..moreover, if the player is younger, you probably get a better return from that player in years 3 and 4 vs. Jorge who will be pushing 40….yes, I know there are not a lot of good catchers available, but a home run is a home run….does not matter if it from a catcher or a 1B….
hmmm is right. If you are going to make Posada “take it or leave it” the same move (the right move)is fair for Torre.
B,
There are two catchers, three if you count Molina, who are on the market right now who are better defensive catchers than Posada. They are Castro and Torrealba.
None match his offensive production.
However, as I stated earlier, I don’t anticipate Posada’s offensive production to rival this season’s and it may begin to decline rapidly.
Take a look at 36 year old catchers over the years. They begin to decline rapidly.
That’s why a 4 year deal for him is lunacy. If somebody else wants to do it, so be it.
You can’t make decisions based on what other teams will do.
A few years ago, EVERYBODY wanted BJ Ryan as a FA to set up Mo. The Yankees had Guidry, who had known Ryan for years (come from the same area) recruit him about coming to NY.
Then, the offer came down. He wanted a 5 year deal. The Yankees passed and some members of the fan base KILLED Cashman for it.
How did that turn out? In year 2 of the deal, he blows out his elbow and now his future is unknown. He may miss the 2008 season. If he doesn’t, he clearly won’t be all the way back from TJ Surgery. That means, in the first 3 years of the deal, the Blue Jays may not have him for 2 of them. They still have to pay him over 11 million bucks a year.
You just don’t make emotional decisions on players. It IS a business. Fans don’t like hearing it but it is.
Fans also don’t like an old, unathletic roster of players who can’t play anymore. They hate that more than it being a business.
If Cashman listened to the fans who want to get sentimental every time a favored son comes up for a new deal, that’s the kind of team the Yankees would put out each year.
If Posada is being honest, a 3 year deal, making him the highest paid catcher in baseball, is more than sufficient for him to remain in NY.
If its not good enough for him, then its time to say goodbye.
Alex Rodriguez’ opting out was a killer offensively. Already you have to spread his production around to 3B and 1B, at least. If you take Jorge out of the mix, and lose even his average numbers, you take another offensive hit. With an inexperienced pitching staff (could be 3/5 “rookies”) a little offensive coverage would be helpful in 2008. 2009 probably looks to be more stable, but so far 2008 is going to test the mettle of a lot of folks out there.
EdWhitson,
The plan everyone around here is pushing for is good bats at 3B and 1B to replace A-Rod. Unless this 1B is Albert Pujols he’s not helping to replace A-Rod’s production AND Jorge’s.
Ed, I agree completely. The only problem is that there doesn’t seem to be too many options of replacing both Jorge’s AND A-Rod’s offensive production without giving up young guys we don’t want to give up (Hughes, Joba, Kennedy, Cano, Wang, Melky..).
I wouldn’t say throw the farm at Jorge, but give him a 3 year deal he can’t refuse, considering he wants to be here.
the OF is locked in (unless Melky is moved). We already have a glut with Matsui, Damon, Leche, and Abreu (not including Duncanstein).
there are no good hitting 1b on the market nor are they being shopped. The two that come to my mind are Tex waiting for FA in 09 and Morneau locked up for a long time and not being shopped. Don’t want Helton (can you say Giambi?).
SJ44
I wrote “LoDuca > Torrealba” as in LoDuca is a better player than Torrealba (which he is), but since you want to argue defense and accomplishment as a catcher:
Torrealba: 424 games at C, .993 FP, mostly as a backup.
He finally became a starting catcher this year. His claim to fame is lucking into a great wave of winning up until the World Series. No one talked about this guy before this year.
LoDuca: 906 games at C, .990 FP, mostly as a starter.
He has been a starting catcher the last seven seasons. He also got significant playing time at 1B and in LF thus had to constantly adjust back to catching from playing there. Also the Mets want him back or have publicly expressed interest in wanting him back.
Therefore, LoDuca > Torrealba defensively.
B.t.w. LoDuca’s a career .288 BA/.338 SLG/.414 OBP/.752 OPS hitter with 7 straight seasons as an everyday catcher
vs. Torrealba’s .251/.313/.391/.704, so LoDuca is also a better hitter than Torrealba who won’t be what 29-year old LoDuca was… “not even close”.
Torrealba merely had a decent year and again, rode a great wave of winning into the World Series like the rest of the team, that’s it.
I’m pretty sure Oliver Perez and John Maine would attribute much of their breakout seasons in 2007 to LoDuca’s handling and defense. Yeah, handling which is part of defense, too.
Doreen – November 6th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
good post!
Does anyone remember Roger Clemens coming back (I think in ‘03) on a 1 year deal for $8M? I don’t remember the market for starting pitching at that point, but I’m pretty sure it was a decent amount higher than that, as was a decent amount less than his annual salary from his previous contract.
Point being (before Houston mortgaged the house for him and we followed last year), even Clemens recognized he wasn’t the player he once was and took less money because he wanted to be here and probably got the best he thought he could get for where he was at that point in his career. He wasn’t stubborn about it.
I guess my point is Jorge should realize by the time he’s had 3 more years, he’s probably not going to be worth $15M, and if he truly does want to stay here, there’s no reason to pound the pavement to find that $15M in the fourth year.
Not sure if anyone else suggested, but why don’t they just offer Jorge and Mo identical 3 yr/$45 mil contracts. Great symmetry. Great symbolism. Both worthy and appropriate.
Scratch “no one talked about (Torrealba) until this year”, no one gave a rat’s a ss about him until the homerun he slammed in the 2007 N.L.C.S.
hmmmmm
A.L. superior to the N.L. this year? Why? Cuz you say so? c I listed all the very good to great starters in this game, most come from or play for N.L. teams. Did you know N.L. teams have shorter bullpens cuz the bench has to be longer cuz of no DH and the pitcher batting? That means the bullpen is a tighter ship and relievers must be and are better (6 guys not 7 most of the time).
Beckett came from the NL
Schilling came from the NL
Wakefield came from the NL
Someone seriously thinks the AL hasn’t been superior to the NL for the last few years?
No way in hell would I ever want to see Laduca on this team. I’d rather have Jose as starting catcher than that piece of trash Laduca. He makes me sick with this crazy bug eyes.
For those of you who say “let him go” (LOL) – and get who? We waited 3 years just to find a suitable back-up — where the hell will we find an everyday guy of Jorge’s calibur?
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/is-the-al-really-superior-part-3/
The AL has been the better league since 2002.
Why does everyone worry about how much the Yankees pay these guys? Has a high payroll EVER stopped them from going out and getting a player they need to make a push for the playoffs?
Nada:
Wakefield is knuckle baller. He’s a circus trick pitcher. Not even in the same discussion.
And what makes the NL pitchers so great in your opinion? ERA? The ERA’s lower because the pitcher spot has to hit. Either you face the pitcher or a pinch hitter cold off the bench. C’mon…
People are all hot for this kid from the Rockies. YOu know it is funny, I was listening to a sports station, and that is exactly what they said would happen.
Jorge will be back as long as the Yankees don’t under cut his value. He is just going to make Cash sweat it out since he didn’t extend him in st.
It would be a shame to lose 3 years of Posada to a dispute over a 4th year. But Jorge has to do what he things is right. Maybe all that means is that he will spend a few weeks trying to drive the price up on 3 years.
I could care less what they pay Jorge. Pay him 20 million a year, I don’t care.
Just make it a 3 year deal. No more. There are no catchers who catch that late into their careers and are effective. Remember how great Benito Santiago and Sandy Alomar were and what they turned into at the end of their careers?
No more than 3 years with a team option for a 4th year with a buyout so if by the end of year 3 he looks shot, he gets the buyout as a golden parachute and we get the open roster spot so we don’t have to carry him like we currently are with Giambi.
Johnson
Clemens
Santana
Pettitte
Rivera
All AL pitchers and arguably better than most NL pitchers.
Pedro did more damage in the AL than in the NL.
Pavano
Burnett
Clement
Brown
All NL pitchers who flamed out in the AL
so the arugment can go both ways.
But if you read the link from hmmm, it supports the AL better than the NL.
G.Love – add Piazza to that list.
Tarheel – One example of over spending on others preventing the Yankees from spending on the right player – Carlos Beltran. A ton of foolish money was spent on Pavano, Wright, Karsay, Giambi, etc making them skiddish about dropping another $100MM. He’s not always the impact player people thought he could be, but passing on a 28 year old free agent, with his prime years in front of him was a huge mistake.
High payroll and fat contracts kills the yankees in countless ways.
Assume that Rivera continues his trend of dropping his inning count by four innings/year. He will then average 63 innings/year over the next three years. $40 million will then be $211,640/inning.
By contrast, Roger Clemens made about $175,750/inning this year.
Hey guys, maybe we should all be positive about Pavano. After all, he still is under contract with us and we should support everyone on our team even if we dislike them. Who knows, if he doesn’t hurt himself during walking from the lockers to the field on the first day of spring training and has stuff like he did in 2003 in case Pettite doesn’t sign, not to say he’ll be better than pettite but wang, joba, phil, ian and pavano doesn’t sound half bad, looks better than mussina at the last spot.
Patronizing doesn’t suit you, SJ44; thought you were above that. It’s not all about emotion. The guy has high value now when we are clearly going to be needing rbis next year. We need to keep him around and four years might be necessary to do that. Beyond that, why is it a foregone conclusion that he’s worth being the highest paid catcher for three years, but a crippling albatross in the fourth? If it’s truly 100% all about business, then Jorge most likely shouldn’t be the highest paid catcher in the game in the third year, either. Chris NY said it best; handling these guys at this point in their career is tricky. Compromises sometimes have to be made (ideally by both sides a la Schilling today). I hope Jorge accepts a three year or shorter deal, but I think it’s short sighted to show him the door if he won’t. Give him four years for less money — negotiate. Take it or leave it is not a good way to do business. (If the Mets really offer something as crazy as five years, then OK, I guess he’s gone.)
This attitude that fans who actually give a **** about the players are just dumb and emotional and sentimental finds its ultimate embodiment in players like ARod. If that’s really true, then let’s just build the new stadium with nothing but corporate luxury boxes and let the stupid masses watch on YES (and hopefully PAY for the privilege) if they’re still interested. Hank’n'Hal at least give lip service to the importance of the fans; I hope it’s not just lip service.
Sorry for the late response; actual work precluded putting this together earlier.
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