Brian Cashman has left the building
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- November
- 8
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The GM Meetings are over.
Brian Cashman did a wrap-up session with the media earler today. There were no great revelations. The Yankees seem focused on trying to make deals with Posada and Rivera and clearly have made them serious offers.
Rivera will likely sign for three years and $40 million. The question with Posada is whether the Yankees overpay for three years (say $45 million) or give him a fourth year at around $54 or $55 million.
No matter what, the Yankees have to pay now for refusing to cut deals in spring training. They probably could have had Rivera for two years then.
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on Thursday, November 8th, 2007 at 1:20 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Not to beat the 3b issue to death but here are two links to espn analysis…
http://sports.espn.go.com/fant.....id=3099366
Well the Yankees just freed up 25 mil for the next 3 seasons… use that money for Mo and Po
How Do , I love Posada but the Limit should be 3 years tops .
Very Nice !!!!
Personally, I’m a fan of Eric Chavez of the Oakland A’s. I know he’s had down years of late, but I think you can get him on the cheap (i.e. second-tier prospects) and solidfy the 3b position. And remember the last time we picked up a 3baseman from the A’s? I heard the guy turned out pretty good. Of course, this does make us that much more of a heavy left-hand hitting team.
Pualie,
Get Chavez for Giambi and Cash,LOTS OF CASH.
Nobody gets anything from Beane on the cheap.
Sorry, Rivera for 2 years in the spring. Fixed that.
Here’s the second story link:
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb.....%3d3099166
Just heard on the radio. Alex supposedly has no desire to return to short.
See I actually like that. Gives an idea on just how fruitless chasing some of these third basemen is.. How big of a gain do you get over Wilson?
The asking price is to high for some of the medicore ones out there.
Focus on the bullpen. Find somebody that isn’t a rookie. Right now we have Ross, Edwar, Veras.. Maybe Sanchez? Maybe Igawa? Maybe Karstens..
Who feels ok with that bullpen makeup?
LOL. On the 3rd base article. Alex can be “a little homerun conscious”. Ya think?!
DMan
November 8th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
Focus on the bullpen. Find somebody that isn’t a rookie. Right now we have Ross, Edwar, Veras.. Maybe Sanchez? Maybe Igawa? Maybe Karstens..
Who feels ok with that bullpen makeup?
There’s also the possibility of Melcanon and Cox returning healthy… Whelan is another – depending on how he develops.
That’s a lot of youth, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing.
“LOL. On the 3rd base article. Alex can be “a little homerun consciousâ€. Ya think?!”
of course, he is also one of the 5 greatest HR hitters in the history of the universe, so i can’t say i blame him.
i still agree with cash$ and his reasoning about not giving extentions til after the season so they will have to pay a little more more to both of them, big deal, they are the yankees. this is why it’s nice to have extra money, give jorge a few extra million instead of a 4th year. juts get it done cash.
I’d do $45M for 3 years in a heartbeat.
And throw in a an option for 2011 with salary dependent on number of games caught in 2010 if he wants it.
hmmm,
I know he is, but there were many, many times when a single or a sac fly would’ve scored a run. The man will positively be a basket case when approaches #600, #700, and the all time record.
Oh, by the way:
Morgan Ensberg.
I’m not saying homeruns are bad, it’s just it SEEMED like he changed his approach during certain situations and the desired result (scoring the run) was not achieved.
“solidfy the 3b position”
the guy can’t stay on the field, and he’s a lefty. Sure, Crede just had surgery, but Chavez has had such a huge variety of problems, and for so many years, that I just really don’t think he’s worth the risk. And, I think the lefty-ness was a problem last season, and replacing the best righty bat with another lefty bat is a losing proposition.
Also, just saw this on mlb4u.com:
During certain games thruout the season, GM Billy Beane must care for Eric’s 2 dogs
That’s apparently a clause in his contract, which to me is just hilarious:-) It’s just so bizarre and arbitrary. Why does _Billy_ have to do it?? It’s not a positive or negative, I just think it’s funny.
Well sure.. And theres Eric Wunderkemp (I completey butchered that name…) who has been pitching well..
Just so many rookies though.. I mean that worrys me more than third base..
Who pitches the 7th and 8th? I mean if they sign The Viz, that helps.. But then you have to trust Farnzy? Or hope Ross improves? Or hope Edwar figures out another pitch other than a changeup..
I just don’t feel good about it..
Dman,
Getting Mo, Po, and Andy would help ease your mind a little right?
And didn’t Farnsworth actually look better towards the end of the year? Maybe he’ll be better now that Roger’s gone.
Okay, I was wrong about it being an extra 100Mil the Yankees would have had to pay for re-signing AROD without the Texas subsidy. It’s actually $203MIL according to this.
http://insider.espn.go.com/esp.....ark_jayson
Hah, it definitly would make me feel better..
I think priority wise, it should go
1. Po, Mo, Pettitte,
2. Bullpen
3. Thirdbase
Farnzy showed signs of being great all year long.. Even if it was just on a batter to batter basis..
I wish I was a pitching coach so I could just say ‘Oh its his arm slot, they can fix that’ or something..
Maybe the new pitching coach will walk in there and see something. And maybe Farnzy won’t be stubborn..
I’d rather the Yanks sign Troy Percival to be a one-year stopgap closer for $3M.
I’d also rather the Yanks sign Ramon Castro to share catching duties with a re-signed Jose Molina. Castro made only $850K this year. I’d offer him 2 years @ $2.55M = $5.1M (6X his 2007 salary across 2 years). At best, he’s a cheap
starting catcher. At worst, he’s an expensive backup catcher.
2008 Percival $3M + 2008 Castro $2.55M = $5.55M
vs. at least $85M for Rivera and Posada through 2010.
I’ll take the former thanks.
I think ross(ohlendorf) will be ok discount rookie jitters and too much sitting in the bull pen while Torre used and overused others did not help him much. he has the stuff, I just hope, they give him another chance.
IO also can’t wait to see hoe Andrew Brackman comes out of off season surgery
Frugal McDougal:
Would you also rather the Yankees finish closer to the bottom than the top of the AL East?
I wasn’t in favor of re-signing Posada either, but with ARod gone we don’t have a choice. They can’t survive a 200-300 point OPS drop at 2 positions.
The Rivera deal sounds good, but four years for Jorge is one year too many. He would only be able to catch for two of those four years if he is lucky. The Yankees would be much better off extending an option for that fourth year. If Posada wants four years guaranteed, then it will be time for the Yankees to cut ties.
Good point Jon
Dman,
With Farnsy it was between the ears. And the fact that his ball has zero movement.
IIRC We celebrated quite a few 1-2-3 innings towards the end.
I think maybe getting back together with Joe G will do him good. Joe was his catcher when he was on the cubs.
raymagnetic,
Can you summarize the Stark article for us who don’t have insider?
Okay maybe not, just looked as his number and over his career they are pretty bad. The Yankees over paid for him based on a few games in atl.
Brackman’s done for this upcoming season I think.. He’ll show up in 09 though.
it’s gotta be Mo and Po, then bullpen, then third base. Which means the problem might not be solved for a while, but you don’t win World Series because of your third baseman.
raymagnetic – can you share that stark piece? Many of us don’t have ‘insider’.
Girardi worked with Farnsworth in Chicago, and always had ideas about how to ‘fix’ him while doing games for YES.
Add in the fact that Farnsworth’s trade value is bupkis, and maybe it’s worth a shot letting Girardi and Eiland work with him for a little while
Pete – a quick question – a LOT of fans seem to be jumping on the “Trade Wang” bandwagon. Again, it doesn’t make a ton of sense trading a guy who’s won 38 games in the last two years.
Do you get a vibe that the Yankees want Wang to develop his slider and changeup more? Or is there a sense that the fingernail issues really took away Wang’s sinker towards the end of 2007??
Glad we’re on the same page.
There was so much focus on thirdbase and power and such righ after Arod left. Obvouisly he leaves a hole there, but we all know deep down that pitching and defense win.
DMAN,
Brackman’s done for this upcoming season I think.. He’ll show up in 09 though.
My bad. i remember that now that i see the print. Must be a brain freeze lol
Jason Stark’s article:
Dman –
I think you’re right – Brackman MIGHT be ready to throw some during fall instructionals in 2008. I guess he’s also a candidate for Hawaiian Winter Baseball (like Kennedy and Chamberlain did)
Speaking of TJ surgery, it might be interesting to see what Melancon, Cox, and Sanchez look like by summer 2008.
Whelan and Robertson could get a cup of coffee out of the pen in fall 2008 as well.
DMan, who would you want in the pen? every single team has bullpen issues. Setup men are notoriously unpredicatable. Boston got (somewhat) lucky with Okajima. Scott Shiels is great, right? He was awful this year.
The best setup relievers are pretty consistently younger guys that take a step up – Betancourt, Perez, Jensen Lewis (who we know all so well).
There are no FA options that you can count on to pitch any better than Farnsworth or Ohlendorf.
It’s a problem in that the pen won’t be great, but there’s not much you can do about it, short of throw $60M at Cordero and make him a $15M/year setup man, or vastly overpay for an injury risk like Wood.
Many mediocre starters would make great setup men, but why would they? If Kyle Lohse can get $10M a year to be a crappy starter, why would he take $4M a year to be a very good setup man?
Why don’t we try for Zimmerman now that he’s having surgery on the wrist?
Zimmerman will not be moved. He’s the Nats’ best player and he’s all of a year removed from his rookie season. He’s cheap and good. It’s like asking the Yankees to see if Hughes is available…
hmmm… I think not.
Zimmerman’s injury was his Hammate bone in his wrist – pretty common among ballers. He’ll have his surgery and be ready to play in 08. The Nats are not going to move him for a long time.
Well thats the thing right? The Yankees have no shortage of guys who COULD pitch in the BP.. But there almost all wildcards. Karstens, Igawa, Edwar, Ross, Sanchez, Cox, Whelan, Rasner, Wright…
Some have shown incredable potential.
I’m not saying the Yankees need to run out and make tons of trades to get veteran bullpen pitchers, but they definitly need to evaluate what they have.
Its a gamble staying with a like 75% rookie/1 year of experience bullpen..
sunny615
November 8th, 2007 at 2:23 pm
Zimmerman will not be moved. He’s the Nats’ best player and he’s all of a year removed from his rookie season. He’s cheap and good. It’s like asking the Yankees to see if Hughes is available…
hmmm… I think not.
how true and if they listen to trade offer for him “Let the buyer beware”
I could see Rivera’s deal at 3 years $42m. Mo is probably just waiting it out a couple of days to stick it to them because he wasnt signed earlier. But his agent did say that Mo will probably wait out the time and see what is on the free agent market. I would rather Cash overpay Posada for 3 years then have to give him 4 years. But when all is said and done he will probably have to add the 4th year. Posada will be DHing and playing 1st base in 2 years anyway.
I have no idea hah.. I mean, I haven’t looked into it much, and I dont think anybody really has. Everyones focused on third base.. My point was if we’re all trying to play arm-chair GM’s, we should be looking out there for bullpen options before thirdbase..
I’m no expert, I don’t pretend to know what the perfect trade would be and all that..
I’m just thinking outloud (or in writing..). Pitching as a rule, should be more important that a thirdbase position..
You make some good points, and theres nothing wrong with basically stating that you’d like to see the Yankee bullpen consist of mostly rookies. Heck, it definitly has the potential to be great.
It just makes me uneasy. More uneasy than the thirdbase situation makes me.
“Pete – a quick question – a LOT of fans seem to be jumping on the “Trade Wang†bandwagon. Again, it doesn’t make a ton of sense trading a guy who’s won 38 games in the last two years. ”
well that depends entirely upon who they’d be trading him for, doesn’t it?
I wonder if Posada would be amendable to a team option for a 4th year with a ridiculous buyout so that he still gets paid well no matter what.
“You don’t win World Series because of your third baseman.”
Rebecca, I couldn’t have put it any better myself. Consise, to the point and dead on accurate.
Thanks, Raymagnetic. Actual cost to the Yankees would’ve been $40 million + (assuming luxury tax for the next 12 years)? Wow. That’s some hometown discount. Thank goodness Alex did us a favor, huh?
Similarly, would the Red Sox have to pay any luxury tax?
The only player worth trading wang for is Santana… and the Twins will hold him until at least next July. Besides the fact that we’d probably have to include Leche and Cano as well.
via Buster Olney:
Yay, Im glad everybodys starting to jump off the ‘OMG we’s need A thirdbase men right NOWZ!!!’ bandwagon..
I was on that too, but we’re all starting to take a breath and focus on the more important things, like Posada, Pettitte and Rivera.
Oh and the bullpen. Maybe. =]
“Similarly, would the Red Sox have to pay any luxury tax?”
if they signed A-Rod i think that would put them over the limit.
So Mo would agree to two yrs in the spring, has a pretty horrible yr by his standards and now, he wont accept anything less than three yrs. Does that make sense to anyone? I guess because other teams are in the race for him and there is no real good closers on the FA market. But the yankees knew those things were going to happen all the way back to last off season. I dont really understand why they put themselves in this position. It doesnt make any sense. Were they hoping Mo would have a godawful yr? His yr was prolly the worst of his career and he still wants three. He is going to be payed more during his decline and horrible yrs than he was every payed when he was the best closer in baseball. If there was any other options, I would almost want to pass on Mo over a three yr 40 million dollar contract. No closer deserves that esp. not a 38 yr old. Posada I can see – he can play first and dh once his catching yrs are behind him, he had the best season of his career last yr and he is yrs younger than Mo.
Mel, I’m sure the Red Sox would have a luxury tax hit, but their payroll isn’t as high as the Yankees so the total cost would be less for them.
And John Heyman:
Rebecca,
No, but you can not make it to the World Series year after year because your closer couldn’t get the final out in 2004 therefore sending players into a postseason tailspin for years.
Just Kidding
Worst case: Posada in 2011 will be a .245/.345/.445 backup catcher who will spot-start at 1B and DH and be a good switch-hitting option off the bench. Worth $13 million? Of course not, but you’ve got to bite the bullet and pay up. With any catcher other than Posada, Martinez, Mauer or Martin, the Yankees would not have won even 90 games this year.
As for Farnsworth, take a look at his 7th-inning splits. He’s been consistently successful, even in the last two seasons. (Note that the bulk of his work with the Tigers was in the 7th inning as well, behind Urbina and Percival, though the was also effective in the 8th after Percival went down). His velocity and slider (and salary) scream “8th inning,” but he has demonstrated that he doesn’t have the makeup to handle it, at least in New York. Trade him if you can, but otherwise keep him as an effective, albeit overpayed, sixth/seventh-inning man.
“I dont really understand why they put themselves in this position. It doesnt make any sense.”
because he sat out most of last september with an elbow problem?
the yankees can easily afford to overpay him a little now after feeling confident he is healthy.
what they don’t want to do is give him a contract and watch him blow out his elbow.
it’s really not that hard to understand.
It’s definitely more of a priority to find the right bullpen mix than a third baseman for now. A great bullpen cures many ills. Ask the 2005 Chicago White Sox. They had a bullpen that shortened a game to six innings basically. That’s exactly what the Yankees need to concentrate on, finding the right mix.
Kerry Wood is out there and available unless the Cubs are wanting him to close. The Viz definitely has value as a set-up man if Girardi uses him properly and gives him enough rest. Girardi should know what motivates Farnsworth and makes him tick. A healthy Vizcaino, a rejuvenated Farnsworth, and a healthy Kerry Wood would make a good bridge to Mo.
They would only need a lefty in the pen at that point. Who would it be? Igawa? Hitoki Iwase? Jeremy Affeldt? That’s for the Yankees to decide. Many options, but pushing the right buttons will make this bullpen one of the best.
No, the Yankees don’t win a WS because of the 3B. They win because of the TEAM. And the team includes a 3B.
They need a certain level of production from the team. If that comes from 3B, great, if it comes from the OF, great, if it comes from the pitchers, great.
The problem is that they were just good enough to make the playoffs last year, and they lost a player who was worth about 10 wins to them. Do they need Cabrera? No, but they need to replace that production.
The starters should be a bit better, assuming they don’t all strain their hamstrings again. Cano could improve a little, but Matsui could regress. Posada (assuming we sign him) will certainly have a worse year.
Where do you upgrade? The only obvious places are 1B and 3B, and possibly the bullpen (though I just discussed how it’s nearly impossible to guarantee an improvement there).
So, YES, 3B is a problem, and we need to find a suitable replacement (hint: Morgan Ensberg).
If the Angels trade for Miguel Cabrera as it’s being rumored, I expect Arod to take the Yankees to arbitration.
Unless Boston backs off from Lowell and they pursue Arod for 3b, Arod will be looking at the SF Giants with the Angels out of the race and I still think he wants nothing to do with the NL.
I don’t think the Dodgers want him.
It’s a smart move by the Angels to go for Cabrera if they can get him. They save money, they save their draft picks and they deal players who they can replace internally or externally for a fraction of what Arod is going to cost them overall. It’s a better business move since by all accounts, they have no trouble filling that stadium w/o Arod.
I think the Yankees 3b pursuit is slow developing for a reason and Cashman and Hank/Hal would look like geniuses if they got Arod to come back on a 1 year arb deal (giving them the right to trade him wherever they want or keep him). He’d be coming back on his hands and knees essentially since no arbitrator is going to give him 30million plus for one season.
The most likely scenario if Anaheim lands Cabrera would be Arod would take less in a multi-year deal than he could have gotten from the Yankees from another team.
It would be a major embarrassment for him and Boras. They would obviously spin it that he just wanted out of the Yankees and was willing to take less for true happiness playing for Team X, but everyone would know they just their lunch handed to them.
Should be interesting. I hope Cabrera goes to Anaheim.
Morgan Ensberg ? really man ….
“No matter what, the Yankees have to pay now for refusing to cut deals in spring training. They probably could have had Rivera for two years then.”
thank you peter.
until posada decides what he’s going to do , the yankees are in a holding pattern. i think he’s the tipping point of what direction they go in 2008. if he leaves, i think cashman throws in the towel and flips the page to 2009 when so many bad contracts come off the table.
the timetable on posada, for posada, is probably to be signed by christmas so we’ve got some time to kill. not the best of times for yankee fans.
““You don’t win World Series because of your third baseman.â€
Rebecca, I couldn’t have put it any better myself. Consise, to the point and dead on accurate.”
except it doesn’t really make any sense.
A-Rod is the Yankees’ best hitter. taking him off the team will make it much harder to win the WS.
would the Sox have won the World Series without Ortiz? Manny? would the Cards have won the WS without Pujols?
take the best position player off of most recent WS teams and they probably don’t win the WS.
yes, pitching is extremely important in the playoffs. but you have to make the playoffs first. and then you ALSO have to score runs in the playoffs.
you guys make it sound like every game in the playoffs is won 1-0 with the winning run scored on a single, stolen base, bunt, and a sac fly.
hitters DO occasionally win game for their teams in the playoffs.
G. Love,
But why would the Angels pursue Cabrera when they have the best chance of landing A-rod.
(I know what you’re saying though, we’d all like Alex to end up on the streets)
The November GM meetings seldom produce any blockbuster moves by teams.
It’s generally an open dialogue to get a feel of what teams will need during the more important December meetings and to banter with player agents.
Free agent signings will pick up by the end of November and it sets the tone for what trades will be necessary to fit the rosters going into spring training.
“The only player worth trading wang for is Santana… and the Twins will hold him until at least next July. Besides the fact that we’d probably have to include Leche and Cano as well.”
really, that’s the ONLY player? so you think Wang is the second best player in all of baseball?
I think you’re forgetting that whichever team loses out on the arod derby, will go after Cabrera… i.e., if the Angels get Arod, the Dodgers will get Cabrera, etc. It’s not just the Angels and Yankees for Arod and Cabrera. And with Cabrera, both the Angels and Dodgers have more prospects to deal a better package to Florida than we do since Cash is adamant (and rightly so) about not dealing the 3.
MLBrumors Cabrera trade
DMan, I’ve been on the bandwagon since A-Rod opted-out. The Yankees don’t need to replace A-Rod at one position but rather get deeper as a team. Personally, I would try and sign Lowell, to avoid losing any prospects. I know he’s a perfect hitter for Fenway and his production at the Stadium would drop, but he had decent numbers with Florida, save for 2005, and that’s a huge park. He’s great defensively and will provide enough offense worst case scenario to justify playing everyday.
hmmm,
In the Red Sox case you’re right. They bludgeoned their way in the 2007 postseason.
But the Cardinals were different in ‘06, they got key hits from Yadier Molina, So Taguchi, and one of their pitchers I think. Pujols was that big of a factor.
Funny, I don’t remember those words coming out of my mouth. Nice of you to put those words there tho even tho I didn’t say that. But given the current market of available pitchers (fa and trade) yes, wang is the second best player on the market.
oops. Pujols was not that big of a factor.
addendum – if the yankees use him as trade bait.
Ensberg, who may be non-tendered by the Padres, could be a low-cost platoon option with Betemit, Lamb, Chavez or Blalock, none of whom can hit lefties. Of course, such a platoon will not match the production or A-Rod, Cabrerra or even Tejada (another trade possiblity), but it would be a significant upgrade over Betemit alone.
“But the Cardinals were different in ‘06, they got key hits from Yadier Molina, So Taguchi, and one of their pitchers I think. Pujols was that big of a factor.”
well, if you think the 83 win cardinals make it to the postseason without Pujols
i would bet everything i own that the Cardinals do not win the 2006 WS without Pujols. everything.
I’m not sure if this one’s been posted here today, regarding Farnsworth:
“The Orioles also need a closer because of injuries to Chris Ray and Danys Báez and are interested in Kyle Farnsworth, who was developed by the Chicago Cubs when MacPhail and Manager Dave Trembley worked there.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11.....ref=slogin
“Funny, I don’t remember those words coming out of my mouth. Nice of you to put those words there tho even tho I didn’t say that”
fair enough, this is what you said:
“The only player worth trading wang for is Santana”
didn’t mean to put words in your mouth, but that’s kindof what you are saying.
Why would the Angels go after Cabrera instead of Arod?
Two reasons come to mind immediately:
1. They control him financially for two years. Meaning, no luxury cap hit. Approx. a 300 million dollar savings from Arod.
2. He’s younger, not a Scott Boras client, and they may feel he fits their team better than Arod.
One thing the Angels have are prospects. Enough to handle this type of transaction.
If they don’t want to give away their franchise to Scott Boras, a Cabrera trade may be a better alternative.
FWIW, in Florida (where I live) the smart money is saying the early leader in the Cabrera Sweepstakes are the Dodgers. Their prospects seem to fit what the Marlins are looking for in return at this time.
Hmmm,
The Red Sox won this year on the strength of their pitching, not because of Manny or Ortiz. Beckett-Schilling-Dice K were a stellar 1-3 and Lester, Tavarez and Wakefield were solid at the back end of the rotation. The team had a killer back of the game bullpen with Okajima and Papelbon. Is it a surprise that they started losing more games when Okajima got tired and Gagne imploded.
Even without A-Rod the Yankees have a good line-up. Damon, Abreu, Cano, Jeter, Posada and even Giambi if he comes around and can stay healthy. The team scored over 900 runs this past year. Yes, they lose a lot with A-Rod gone, but they’d still be able to score enough runs. And better starting pitching and a better bullpen can make up for the decrease in runs scored.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3098571
Interesting article on HGH.
jon
What’s wrong with Troy Percival? He had a nice comeback season this year:
1.80 ERA in 34 games, 9 games finished, no saves (he wasn’t signed to be the closer -Isringhaused is St.Louis’ closer.)
40 IP, 36 SO, 24 H, 10 BB
So his H + BB H + BB.
He also was 4 SO shy of having 4:1.
I think he could double those stats and save 35-40 games for a fraction of the price Mo could, and who says it has to be just Percival if it came to it? I’d love Jeremy Affeldt and J.C. Romero to be signed as the lefties who could help Percival close games. Help or no help, those three could get it done for .287 next year. If Castro and Molina could combine for say .267, yeah 20 points below .287 but so what with better defense than Posada from them, Miguel Cabrera at 3B, a better Cano (I think he’ll have a breakout year next year), and perhaps a 25 HR, 80 RBI-type season from Giambi (way better than his 2007). I think they have what it takes to land Cabrera.
I think that A-Rod would sooner accept 8 years/$209.3 million (their original offer minus 21.7) from the Yankees than agree to arbitration. He would not get more than $25 million from an arbitrator, and he would have to duplicate his 2007 performance to maintain his market value for the next offseason.
Then again, the Yankees would love to have him in another contract year.
This is what I’m saying: Wang, a two time 19 game winner (who has actually won more games in two years than Santana) with a 3.+ era is worth keeping over virtually every player available via trade right now.
Some crack head just called into wfan saying we should give up Joba and others to get Cabera and Dontrelle. PEOPLE NEED to stop just looking at the names and look at peoples stats. Dontrelle was HORRIBLE last year.
Farnsworth for Tejada? Sold.
A guy who has had multiple arm surgeries can’t necessarily match his performance if you just “double” his stats.
He retired because of a bad arm. He wasn’t used extensively, which helped him finish the season.
To desire Percieval, a guy whose arm isn’t healthy, over Rivera, a guy whose arm is healthy, makes little sense to me.
He also pitched in the NL. A MUCH easier league for relief pitchers to compile numbers.
SJ44,
That’s the financially prudent thing to do. But Moreno might want to deliver on his promise to make a move to bring a big bat. Cabrera is young and good, but he might be a tough sell if they had a chance to grab A-rod.
The only fault with Stark’s logic is the Yankees are probably still going to be paying luxury tax on someone. Using his logic, the Giambi contract is costing the Yankees $31M. Jeter’s contract is costing the Yankees $30M. Pettitte $25M. Mussina $19M, etc…. Luxury tax is paid on team payroll not individual players so therefore you can pick anyones contract if you want to make it look bad.
If you extend that logic one step further, Yankees could eat $10 million of Giambi’s contract and trade him for a prospect and enjoy a $21M savings. Dollars like stats can manipulated many ways to prove a point.
2007 Troy Percival:
40 IP – 36 SO – 24 H – 10 BB – 1.80 ERA in 34 G (9 GF)
His IP > his H + BB. His SO > his H + BB.
He was 4 SO shy of 4:1.
SO NONE OF YOU TELL ME HE CAN’T BE A ONE-YEAR STOPGAP CLOSER AT A BARGAIN PRICE. HE COULD SIGN FOR A YEAR AND $7M AND STILL BE A BARGAIN CUZ HE’D BE $3.5M
“The Red Sox won this year on the strength of their pitching, not because of Manny or Ortiz.”
but do you think that the 2004 Red Sox get by the Yankees without Ortiz?
i don’t really have a problem with anything you are saying. pitching is very important.
it’s just silly when people make absolute statements like “no one wins the WS b/c of their 3Bman”.
that’s true. except when it isn’t.
The Yankees won the 1978 World Series with their 3rd baseman.
hmm–There’s no doubt hitters can win games on occasion.
However, when it comes ddown to it, good pitching will ALWAYS beat good hitting.
This is the very, very first thing I EVER learned about baseball.
hmmm,
I thought we were talking about winning the world series, not getting there.
“Wang, a two time 19 game winner (who has actually won more games in two years than Santana) with a 3.+ era is worth keeping over virtually *every player available* via trade right now”
ok, this is where we are disagreeing. every player *available”.
we don’t really know who is available, do we?
there are many players in the league i would trade Wang for. but if we stick to the rumored names, then maybe you have a point.
of course, i would trade Wang for Miguel Cabrera, but i understand that many here would not.
Jen, some crackhead also called in and said Joba for Santana on 1050ESPN ? (most be the same guy)
mel
I don’t think he has to end up on the streets; California is good enough. In my mind, baseball that happens on the west coast might as well be on Mars!
Mel,
Miguel Cabrera’s numbers in the first 4 years of his career are better than Arod’s at a similar timeframe. He’s plenty big enough a “name” to sell to his fanbase. In fact, he’s probably a better bet because of his age and the fact he and Vlad are good friends.
I gave an example as to why Percieval is no answer. You don’t move away from Mariano Rivera over a few bucks. Please, let’s get logical here.
If, for some reason, they lose Rivera, Joba will close. They aren’t spending 7 million bucks on an old relief pitcher.
You can’t just look at stats with no context. Its the problem with folks who just look at stats.
He signed with the Cardinals for a reason. He didn’t have to close because he knew (as well as the teams, including the Yankees, who were at his workout) his arm wouldn’t hold up under that workload.
They will sign Rivera. Folks need to relax.
“However, when it comes ddown to it, good pitching will ALWAYS beat good hitting.”
if that’s the case, how did Mariano blow that World Series for the Yankees?
there is no such thing as “always”.
SJ44: I’ve been saying Dodgers and (fill in a team) are a great match for whatever superstar player is available. The Dodgers have many more pieces than the Angels, who seem to have fallen in the Yankees-of-old category – hype the prospects beyond their talents. The Angels’ minor league pitching is not very good once you past Adenhart, so I don’t imagine they will make that deal.
I see Cabrera to LAD and A-Rod to LAA.
YankeeInMichigan: The speculation is that Farnsworth to the Orioles would be for prospects, not Tejada. However, that’s not to say they could be co-mingled. The Orioles have as much as acknowledged that they are a mess and will look at, and probably take, most anything that gets them out from under lousy contracts.
“but do you think that the 2004 Red Sox get by the Yankees without Ortiz?”
No, they certainly wouldn’t have. But another big reason the Red Sox were able to come back in that series was because of their pitching depth. Pedro vs. Moose in game 5, Schilling vs. Lieber in game 6 and Lowe vs. Brown in game 7. The pitching kept the Sox in games 4 and 5 until Ortiz took over and won them games 6 and 7.
Yes, Third Base is an important position. The Yankees may not have any Manny or Ortiz caliber players in their line-up currently but there is still a lot of hitting talent there. The pitching talent and depth will take a big hit if Kennedy is traded for only a bat.
Brandon probably. You’d have to knock my socks off to get me to even think about trading Joba. Heck I was just at the Yankee Clubhouse store and almost bought another Joba rules shirt.
Hey SJ44
Right, Percival RETIRED after 2005. He’s back and healthy and returned in 2007 cuz he wants to pitch again. Deal with that and the fact that you’re wrong about the guy. According to his 2007 gamelog, he began the season on 6/29. He pitched 10 games in July, 12 in August, and 11 in September (last appearance was 9/30). So, he pitched about as much as Mo did July through September, check Mo’s gamelogs. So there goes your “he wasn’t used extensively” argument. I got these numbers from baseball-reference.com. Where did you get your info from?
His last game in M.L.B. before this year was 7/9/05. So despite not having pitched for almost 2 whole years (7/9/05-6/29/07), he still posted a 1.80 ERA in 34 games,
more IP than hits and walks allowed combined, and more SO than H and BB allowed combined as well as threw 4 SO shy of striking out 4 times as many batters as he walked. He did this over 3 months. That isn’t a fluke, sorry.
If you want to get nitpicky, then hypothetically, everyone’s “available”, but I am basing my comments on what published reports there are out there from various periodicals.
Which is what my comment is based on – rumored names. I thought that was implicit when I made that comment… but I’ll be sure to clarify in future posts so no one misconstrues my posts again.
I would err on the side of no in that case. Wang has proven twice that he can handle a full season in the AL East winning 19 games twice. Until Beckett does it again next year, no one can say that in the past two years.
I wouldn’t touch Miguel Tejada. He’s declining rapidly as a player, is an odds on favorite to be in the Mitchell Report, and told the Orioles he has no interest in moving to third base. Why would he change his mind now? For a contract extension. He also has a no trade clause.
Precisely the type of player the Yankees should stay away from as they remake the team.
Hmm–Yeah, but the Yankees would have won the series in 2001 if they had pitched in game six.
Or if they had pitched in games one or two.
SJ44,
I’m not arguing with you. In fact, personally, I would take Cabrera over Alex.
I was just thinking this is one of those franchise altering moments for the Angels. Kind of like when the Yankees chose Shef over Vlad. Just kidding.
It just seems like Alex is Plan A and Cabrera is Plan B for the Angels, and it just might matter to the folks in California.
Rivera underperformed his Spring Training expectations. Why should that earn him another year?
Re: Paying late inning relievers, the highest contract to date was made in 2005 and went to BJ Ryan for $47 million. He’s great–they all are for one to 3 maybe 4 years, then he’s out with Tommy John surgery. Mo had his T. John surgery in 1992 so we didn’t have to pay for it during his major league career. Billy Wagner was signed in 2005 for $43 million with an additional 1 year team option. Re: Farnsworth, if you like baseball awards incentives, Farnsworth had one (per Cots): “may earn additional $0.5M annually if he leads club in Rolaids relief points.” While I agree Girardi may be clairvoyant in dealing with Kyle (I’ve also heard his YES remarks), Farnsworth has other problems: continual physical complaints, neck, shoulder, back, etc., which crop up on a regular basis. He’s refused to go more than 1 inning, has refused to go on consecutive days–both standard issue for Mo for his entire career–in situations when his team needed him. It’s more than just one or 2 things that would have to change for Farnsworth to be worth anything. And that’s not even getting into his open hostility on national television toward his catcher and manager, the former to the point where his physical safety could not be assured.
Oh Frugal,
Back under another blog name, still getting upset when someone questions your stats. What is this, your 100th new name?
Why am I wrong about the guy? Because you say so?
He retired in 2005 because of the pain in his elbow. He underwent surgery after he retired and, yes, he decided he wanted to pitch again two years later.
The Yankees, Tigers, Cardinals, Angels, Marlins and Red Sox attended his private workout. Two teams offered him contracts. The Cardinals and the Marlins. Do you think its a coincidence that every AL team, all in the playoff hunt, including his former team, passed on him? Its because his stuff is no longer closer quality.
Again, just looking at stats, and believing you can double someone’s output simply based on stats, is examining a situation without any context.
He pitched in NON-SAVE situations in the National League. That doesn’t mean he’s ready to assume a closers role in the AL. It certainly isn’t going to net him a 1 year, 7 million dollar deal from anybody.
You want to throw that kind of money at a setup guy, be my guest. I’ll just give Mariano the money and have the closer’s role filled by a future Hall of Famer for the next 3 years.
hmmm
Good pitching always beats good hitting; not necessarily good pitchers. (Because a good pitcher can have a bad day.) Plus it could be argued that in that case, the exception that proves the rule, I suppose, Mariano made a good pitch to a fair hitter and the fair hitter did not hit it well, but it hit where they weren’t. Which is probably the second thing most people learn about baseball “hit it where they aren’t.”
It should be mandatory to use block quote. BLOG LAW!
The Angels don’t need the Arod name value. For years, they’ve packed that stadium playing winning baseball.
They do need a big hitter to complement and protect Vlad. Miguel Cabrera fills that role quite nicely for them.
If I owned that team and I knew I could trade Kendrick, Ervin Santana and another good prospect for Miguel Cabrera vs. being locked into Arod for 30 million a year at age 32 for possibly 10 seasons, I’m trading for Cabrera.
He’s cheaper than Arod. He’s younger than Arod. He costs less than Arod and he’s less financial risk than Arod. No one will insure the full value of Arod’s deal in case of injury, so if he ever blew out a knee you’d be on the hook for most, if not all, of the money.
Miguel Cabrera you are locked into for 2 more seasons and if he fits with the ballclub, you open up the checkbook and retain him. I guarantee you in 2 seasons Miguel Cabrera won’t be making 30 million a year.
Outside of Arod we may get back to 20 million dollar players (Johan, the most likely), but I don’t think the owners are all going to embrace 30 million dollar players just because Boras is telling the world Arod is worth than and more.
If Anaheim dried up as a landing spot for Arod, Boras will be in full panic mode.
The Dodgers definitely have the prospects to make the deal though. It’ll be interesting to see how this shakes out.
I think this is why Cashman is sitting in the weeds not rushing into a 3b acquisition. He knows there is a whole lot of dancing to still be danced at this point.
Yes, we are!
Yes, we are!
Is their anything besides obvious bragging rights, more sold seats, sponsorships, more merchandise sales and higher tv ratings a team receives after winning a world series trophy? Always wondered about that.
I reserve the right to amend my idea with Percival closing with this one:
The Yanks sign him and Jeremy Affeldt and re-sign Vizcaino (Cashman likes him) to be the closer by committee.
Bottom line is either Percival closing alone or him/ Affeldt/ Vizcaino closing, it’s better than giving an old man 3 years and $40M because of what he did through 2006, not 2007, cuz Mo was NOT what he was through 2006 this year.
I saw the games. I could see Mo falling apart next year and then what?
Don’t forget having “journalists” from your city rubbing it in the noses of rival cities.
Maybe if it’s possible to reduce the size of type in the block quote or something you could make them less of a space-waster? I’m a complete know-nothing about ’special effects’ so don’t know if this is feasible.
Faiaz,
And the managers of both WS teams get to manage the All-Star game. I want to see Francona use Joba in Yankee Stadium ‘08.
closer by committe ? ugh. no thanks. that never works.
i’ll take mo for 2 years at closer and if he starts to lose it, have him set up for a year, and then maybe frankie rodriguez becomes available or one our young kids can take over, or depending on the rotation put joba back there.
mo is the closer next year. just depends how much money hes going to get. between arod, torre, wright, johnson, vazquez all coming off the books who cares if him and jorge get paid
What sort of reception would Francona get?
What sort of reception did Torre get in 1999?
You saw the games last year and saw Mo “falling apart”? I seem to have missed those games. He pitched better than all of those guys last year.
No thanks. I’ll just take the “falling apart” Rivera and take my chances.
There is a big difference between setting up games and closing them. If you don’t understand that, there is nothing to discuss.
Rebecca,
I can almost guarantee that Francona would get a better reception than A-rod.
side agreement (later invalidated by MLB) gave Clemens:
right to request a trade
right to approve team to which he is traded
right to request trade to Houston after any season during the life of the contract
Was taking a look at Yankees contracts saw this on Rogers very interesting. Even though it was invalidated found it curious.
Back under a new blog name? Huh? Sorry I don’t live on this blog like you loser. I backed up my argument with 2007 STATS which showed Percival is back, healthy, and good, you didn’t. You’re wrong about the guy cuz you made blanket, uninformed statements about a guy with an 1.80 ERA, a 4:1, more IP OR SO than H + BB which is impressive in either league. If that isn’t the pot calling the kettle black when YOU are the one who constantly comes on here like you know everything and it’s right cuz you say so.
Are you an M.L.B. scout? No, so how the hell do you know why certain teams passed on him? I don’t. So what if A.L. teams passed on him? The Yanks had Mo, Detroit had Todd Jones who collected 38 saves, Boston had Paplebon, the Angels had K-Rod. They didn’t need closers. Neither did St.Louis, who really didn’t need Percival either. St.Louis with Dave Duncan as pitching coach is a joke franchise for signing him? And sticking with him as their middle reliever?
Oh b.t.w. the Yanks released Carlos Pena -how’d that one turn out for Tampa Bay? Did anyone think this guy would even post half his 2007 stats? I sure didn’t…and I bet you didn’t.
Um got news for you: there’s pressure in any situation. And $4M (what I’d offer him since he got a contract with incentives up to $3M last year, on Cot’s Baseball Contracts)
or $7M for a year sure beats throwing away $40M on a guy who showed this year he is nearing the end alot sooner than you or anyone else who thinks Mo will always be Mo think.
Mel–Aye, same here
Wait, I thought you were a loser if you didn’t live on this blog??!!??
I guess I should have just been doing actual work these past few months! Now I know!
Yeah, only 30 saves (I’d say at least 10 of the fingernail biting variety, 3.15 ERA (his highest ever), 68 H in 71.3 IP, an out of nowhere blown save with a 3-run lead vs. Boston (which definitely accounts for one of the two games the Yanks fell short for the division and homefield advantage) and being owned by Boston since 2004 is falling apart esp. when 3 years and $40M is involved…and Paplebon is better now. He looked like 1996 John Wettleland this year
-where was John in ‘97?
It’s time to move on and that means a closer by committee with a cheap, good, veteran, 324 career saves pitcher (Percival). Again, I reserved the right to say Percival/ Affeldt/ Vizcaino > Mo and who if he falls to injury?
There’s nothing more to discuss with you.
You gave the same retort to me the last time I called you out on stuff. That’s why I know its you.
Am I a scout? No but, I work in the biz, know plenty of scouts, and know why teams passed on him.
Teams passed on him because he no longer possesses closer stuff. Yes, there is a difference. Even losers like me know that.
Closer by committee over Mariano Rivera and you want to call me a loser? That’s funny stuff.
Come back with another blog name and try again.
When has closer by committee worked? Did it work for the bo soxs? NO. Who has it worked for?
closer by committeee is the silliest thing i’ve ever heard.
Rivera may not be falling apart, but he has begun to decline. Once that happens, you cannot predict how steep the decline will be from there on out.